Fool on the Hill: You Can't Cheat Quality

[Tannerman]

Good article from the MotleyFool.com (http://biz.yahoo.com/mf/010626/hill_010626.html) that sums up how a lot of us are feeling these days about Disney's blindness to quality...


Fool on the Hill: You Can't Cheat Quality
By Rick Aristotle Munarriz

Tuesday June 26, 2:43 pm Eastern Time

Storyboard me this:

You know that feeling when you trip over a gap in the sidewalk? You stop. You look back and shake your head. What an evil, bad, bad gap. It's not your fault. No way. Your visibility is stellar. Sure, everyone else seems to be navigating the sidewalk flawlessly. Still, how could you be blamed for the stumble? You're not the problem. There's no need for an internal solution.

That kind of brute arrogance swirling in denial? That's Disney (NYSE: DIS - news) to an M-I-C right now. The content titan that had it all -- network ratings, theme park throngs, and film buzz -- is falling apart at its plush toy seams and it doesn't even know it.

Disney probably isn't even aware that the weapon of its own recent self-destruction is the same one Wall Street was cheering on just a few quarters earlier. Its cost-chomping budget costs, which were supposed to be the company's horse-drawn carriage ride to billions in savings and margin-widening paradise, has turned into a pumpkin faster than analysts can say "bibbidi-bobbidi-boo."

Apparently, you can't cheat quality. If you compromise park construction costs to the point of making the parks half-day destinations, consumers notice. If you fail to spend the greenbacks to provide a fortress of solid programming around a game show phenom, sponsors notice. No, you can't skimp on the good stuff and get away with it.

You also can't let hired talent click in and out of the turnstiles and expect brand ubiquity to whisk you off to Neverland. It just doesn't work that way, even if pride is the last to know.

Watching Pearl Harbor and Atlantis sink in the box office can't be easy for Disney when it was supposed to be a seaworthy one-two summer punch. The irony that Shrek is the one knocking both out of summer blockbuster contention is just more salty pixie dust in the wounds. You see, the computer-rendered ogre hit comes from the DreamWorks SKG camp. The "K" in the SKG stands for Katzenberg: Jeffrey Katzenberg. He led the revitalization of Disney's animation studio under Michael Eisner and figured he'd be a shoo-in for the president's job when Frank Wells died. But when Eisner pal Michael Ovitz was anointed instead, Katzenberg started what would become a long line of defections of longtime animators and "imagineers."

Having topped the $200 million mark, Shrek has done what Disney's animation studio has failed to do in Katzenberg's absence, save for Pixar's (Nasdaq: PIXR - news) handiwork with Toy Story 2. While Disney still has Scary Movie 2 and November's release of Pixar's Monsters Inc. on the slate, other studios are better positioned for the latter part of the calendar year. As our own Brian Lund pointed out in Monday's Rule Maker column, AOL Time Warner (NYSE: AOL - news) has both A.I. and the first of the Harry Potter movies on tap.

Disney might try to reason away its filmed and in-house animated woes, but footsteps speak louder than words. Last year Joe Roth left the helm of Disney's studio division. Last week Peter Schneider followed suit. In Hollywood, where everyone down to an aspiring waiter wants to direct, no one seems eager to direct Disney. Is this a problem? No sirree. Someone fetch me some wet cement so I can smooth out this here sidewalk.

On the tube front, ABC may have closed out the ratings season on top but it's clear the company flew too close to the sun when it pumped out Who Wants to Be a Millionaire four nights a week. Ratings are slipping, lifelines are waning, and the show will only air two nights a week come the fall season.

Short of The Practice, Disney failed to build out any kind of successful programming beyond its Regis-flavored quiz show. That's unfortunate, and now Disney will have to pay the price for easing back on the Barcalounger when opportunity came knocking. According to yesterday's Daily Variety, ABC has had to slash its fall ad rates by 5% to 7%. When you tack on projected lower numbers for Millionaire and the voids around it, that shortfall can translate into more than 20% off the network's ad revenue take.

While Disney will naturally point to a sluggish broadcast ad market, only GE's (NYSE: GE - news) NBC has had to follow Disney's lead and cut rates, though not as deeply. Fox was able to hold steady while Viacom's (NYSE: VIA - news) CBS was actually able to command slightly higher rates for the upcoming season. Problem? Not a chance. Just smooth over the cement and the sidewalk will be as good as new.

Disney's two newest theme parks are also in trouble. You won't hear this from Disney officially, but at least this time they are scrambling to treat the malady -- only from the wrong end. Walt Disney World's Animal Kingdom and Disney's California Adventure are failing as full-day destinations, and the company is responding by cutting prices. In Florida, seasonal passholders who have limited access to the theme parks during peak periods will be able to visit Animal Kingdom for free all summer long. Over in Anaheim, locals will be able to pay the child's admission rate while accompanied kids will be let into the park for free.

Does Disney see the correlation? Does it realize that budget cuts at the park level are now causing lower attendance and revenue-smacking discounts at the gate? The older parks are also being watered down with attraction closures, staff cuts, and shorter operating hours. It's hard watching Disney retreat reactively and settle for less rather than build out the new parks into viable moneymakers. You can't draw the A-list crowd sans new E-ticket attractions. Disney lays the blame at the feet of the sluggish economy -- but if that were the case, why are regional amusement park operators like Six Flags (NYSE: PKS - news) and Cedar Fair (NYSE: FUN - news) poised for record-breaking seasons?

Disney has diversified itself along many leisure lines, but what good is having your eggs in different baskets if the baskets themselves are constructed cheaply? There are only so many corners you can cut before you find yourself going in circles.

Disney will eventually realize there is no mountain of McDonald's (NYSE: MCD - news) Happy Meal toys high enough to diffuse the growing power of word of mouth. At a time when television channels number in the hundreds and Web users in the hundreds of millions, money spent on marketing is probably better utilized on honing the craft that is being marketed in the first place.

Pearl Harbor was supposed to be the next Titanic, not the Titanic itself. Atlantis was supposed to keep Disney on the hand-animated map, but it, too, has become a lost empire. Bad news and mixed reviews travels faster than ever these days.

So why are you looking back after the stumble? It's not the sidewalk. It's the shoes.

[ww52]

I love the quote "you can only cut corners so much before you're running around in circles". I hope all us Disney fans see that the buzz in general is that Disney quality is suffering. We can argue forever whether in fact DCA or AK are or are not good parks: the perception seems to be building that they are not. Perception in many cases is reality.

Following on my post regarding the BK rumor: let's hope Disney realizes the time is right for a major announcement - and that they deliver something grand next time.

[Peter Pirate]

Great article and it opened my eyes as to how quality can and should still be used to save Disney. I always believed the "cost cutting" would stop & good things would happen, but as of yet I'm still waiting...So I agree with ww52 and say "come on Mike, give us some good news!"
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

[Another Voice]

An excellent article. The only thing I’d add is another tangible cost. With Disney being seen rather unfavorably by Hollywood these days, the company can only complete for talent based on money. It’s been reported that Disney will be paying $150 to $200 million for a two year renewal of ‘The Drew Carey Show’. This is an increasable amount of money for a show that performs moderately well. And the worse part is that the show’s produced by Warner Brothers. It looks like Dreamworks isn’t the only one making a profit from Disney’s “issues” these days.

[JeffH]

"but if that were the case, why are regional amusement park operators like Six Flags (NYSE: PKS - news) and Cedar Fair (NYSE: FUN - news) poised for record-breaking seasons"
----------why?
Because people are expected to go to the 'regional' (local) amusement parks, since they can't afford an expensive vacation to WDW.
I'm also sure that during economic bad times, chicken sales increase, while steak sales decrease...that doesn't mean that the steak is bad or that people don't want steak.

[johare]

Maybe your right...in this case though Shrek is steak, Atlantis is chicken and Pearl Harbor is macaroni and cheese. IOA is steak and WDW is chicken.

[BRERALEX]

Johare that was funny lmao


I think right now the shoes Disney are wearing are Rockports when they should be sporting Mephistos

[johare]

Sure...20 ounces of prime rib which has been sitting there getting rotten and mouldy for 5-10 years.

Just out of curiousity, what are the two great attractions at IOA and what do you consider to be great attractions at Disney? I can only think of 3-4 great Disney attractions and all but one is at the Magic Kingdom.

[JeffH]

Funny how the term "great attractions" somehow has been equated with thrill rides, while
my daughter and I equate "great attractions" with quality shows which WDW is filled with, which other parks seem to forget about. Shows that entertain for 20-30 minutes (with emotion), not 3-5 minutes (with nausea). And the "great attractions" at WDW are emersed in extensive (and expensive) landscaping, theme and detail, which other parks barely address and pocket as profit. And furthermore, WDW then adds to the day at its parks parades and expensive memorable nighttime shows (fireworks and Fantasmic) Yet, WDW is called 'cheap". From what we see 3-4 dozen times a year at WDW, Disney is far from cheap and spends significantly more than any other park we have ever visited. And I think that we (a 43 yo Father, who does enjoy thrill rides, and a 7 yo daughter), represent the people that WDW is trying to cater to, not the thrill seeker looking for a <5 thrill one after the other and hopes Disney will give it to them (you can go to Busch Gardens for that). No other park offers the shows that WDW provides:
MGM:Hunchback (marvelous music, story and show...brings tears to your eyes)
MGM:Beauty and the Beast (mms&s...newly redone with more show and more Belle)
MGM:Little Mermaid (watching a wonderful show while under water is cool)
MGM:Indiana Jones (the "Wild West show" at Universal doesn't come close)
AK:Lion King (considered by many the best show at WDW)
AK:Tarzan (excellent music and choreography, we like it more every time we see it)
AK:Safari (the extent that WDW went to to create a realistic African savannah was amazing)
E:All Live Entertainment throughout the World Showcase is great
MK: Offers many unique attractions the like not found at any other park.
--------
Then there are the amazing restaurants at WDW, which as far as we are concerned are an attraction in themselves. The theming, food (and some with the characters), and service are second to none.
We just joined the Disney Dining Experience, which should pay for itself real quick.

[johare]

I guess everyone has their own opinions on what type of 'attractions' they enjoy. I usually prefer rides to shows but enjoy both. To me the four best 'attractions' at WDW are Pirates, Haunted Mansion, Splash Mountain and Tower of Terror.

As for the shows at WDW I enjoy MuppetVision, Little Mermaid, Fantasmic and Festival of thje Lion King, however I think that the shows at IOA and USF are just as good if not better than WDW shows. IMHO the Wild West Stunt shows beats Indiana Jones hands down as does the 8th Voyage of Sinbad. Posiedon's Fury and T23D are also great shows and as good or better than anything at WDW.

[JeffH]

I saw the Wild West Show as being very "small", contrived, cheap, and amateurish.
I can't speak for the attractions at IOA, since I've never had the time to go. I hear it is a great park, but that 'fact' alone does NOT make WDW any less amazing.

[johare]

At least the Wild West show is funny AND entertaining. IMHO Indiana Jones is a slow moving, boring out-dated stunt show.

[cindyfan]

I have to agree with JeffH about the "attractions" . We are season's pass holders at Cedar Point in Ohio and can ride all the coasters and rides we want all summer long.
But every year we look forward to the experience of the "attractions" at WDW. The theming and the atmosphere is everything. Disney is and always will be in the "entertaining" business. And we go there to be entertained, not just to ride rides.
Don't get me wrong, we love rides just the same, but that is not why we go to WDW.
We love the shows, parades, characters........the "attractions" !! :)

As far as the attendence at "amusement" parks.......being season's pass holders of Cedar Point and living just an hour from Six Flags Ohio.......I can say that there has been a significant decrease in attendence there too. The economy has taken it toll everywhere. This has been the first year I have seen so many "deals" going in order to boost the attendence at these 2 parks too. I do agree that less people will be traveling long distances. But when the price to get into Cedar point is normally $39 a day........I see WDW as quite a deal!!!!!! :) You get so much more for your money!!! Especially since the only "show" at Cedar Point is a singing quartet in a bar! :( There is a lasar light show at night, which has been the same for the last 5 years. But nothing compares to Illuminations or Fantasmic!!! :)

So to compare WDW to any type of "amusement" park is just silly. It is like comparing dry cereal to a gourmet dinner!!!
I have never been to IOA, so I can't compare that, but IMHO nothing will ever come close to WDW!!!!

[Wantogo]

After reading these posts, for some reason I am hungary for steak and chicken.:)

[johare]

Cindyfan,

Saying that nothing will ever come close to WDW is a pretty closed minded statement, especially since you have never been to IOA which is definately not like a typical "amusement parks" like Six Flags or Cedar Point. IOA has plenty of theming, characters, shows and atmosphere to go along with it's fantastic rides.

You might be right though in comparing Disney to your typical gourmet dinner which is often overpriced and not worth the money spent on it.

[ScroogesNephew]

How about Turkey and Greece?

[HBK]

but I keep getting pulled back.

Here's a little background. I've been posting less and less as of late. Why?

Because I think the magic has died in me. I'm going to Orlando for my honeymoon in October.

I had ressies for Swan / Dolphin, I was going to go with the Unlimited Magic Pass, and I wasn't going to leave Disney property for the whole 9 days.

But then I read Jim Hill's article about IOA. Ever since that moment, I've been trying to sponge up any info regarding USF / IOA that I can. It's something new. I've never been to IOA before. The article totally pumped me up for my trip. I can't wait to get on the plane and goto IOA.

I changed my ressies to an off-site hotel. I saved almost $800 by doing this....and I don't regret it at all.

I haven't read ANYTHING about ANYTHING WDW is offering which has me excited to go there.

Don't get me wrong. I'll still be headed to WDW during my trip....but it's become a secondary destination for me. And deep down that really bothers me. I used to live for my Disney trips. And all of the cost cutting has taken that from me.

All of the budget cuts, the reduced hours, the lack of anything new to draw me back to the park, etc has made me indifferent to the WDW experince. And that sucks. I wish I could be like JeffH, Duck, Peter and the others who don't see the flaws. Unfortunatly I can't.

And with that, I'm going to try to stay out of these arguments. I really don't have anything usefull to add.

But....

Let me tell you one thing Cindy....I live MINUTES from Six Flags New England. The prices are at an all time high, but the park is still packed

[cindyfan]

johare,
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.........and as stated in my previous post .........
It is MY OWN opinion that nothing will ever compare to WDW. It is not being closed minded!! It is just knowing what I like and enjoy!! :) Disney has been always been a part of my life and I connect with the characters etc. I really have no great desire to go to IOA, I am not saying I would never go. I would like to some day. I am sure my daughter would truly enjoy the Nickelodeon stuff.

I never said IOA was a typical "amusement park". I am sure it is more. More expensive for sure!

As for WDW being a gourmet dinner.........all my gourmet dinners are usually fixed by myself or my son-in-law who is a chef!!
So they are well worth the time, effort and money!!!! :)

You can keep your IOA "steak" which I am sure was just tossed on the grill and burnt to a crisp!
I will take my gourmet dinner, even if it is made with chicken!!! As least I know there was alot of love and "pixie dust" put into the preparation! And it is served on china that was given to me as a special gift. Not just thrown on a paper plate as if at some tacky steak fry!!! :)

I will repeat........Nothing will ever come close to WDW.........In MY honest opinion!! :)

[johare]

Your loss. I hope you continue to enjoy whatever Disney and Mikey serves up for you...regardless of quality.

[JeffH]

It's not that I don't see the flaws, it's that they are insignificant in the face of all there is.
"Budget cuts" are meaningless, and only represent what might have been, and rarely impact on the existing experience we have at the parks. What is a budget cut, anyway. If I spent 1 mil last year and budgeted 2 mil next year and cut it back to 1.5 mil, is that a budget cut? If I budgeted 1 mil to something last year and found a way to do the same thing for .9 mil this year, is this a budget cut or just plain smart?
As far as the reduced hours, WDW offers better hours than any other park, and as far as I am concerned, I would like to also have some time to swim, relax and get some sleep, between when the parks close and open, so a typical closing time of 9 or 10pm is welcome by me and I find nothing magical about 16 hour day in any park.
Other parks usually seem to add about 1 new major ride/year (especially the last few years). WDW offers many new things/year, but doesn't quite add major new attraction/year. Here's an inacurate accounting to review:

MK02-Nothing
MK01-Aladdin (minor)
MK00-Buzz and Pooh (equal to 1 major)
MK99-Goofy coaster (minor)
MK98-nothing
MK97-Alien Encounter (midlan)

E02-Space
E01-Nothing
E00-Imagination (minus), Millenium Vill/Tapastry(midlan)
E99-New live acts (minor)
E98-Test track working (major)
E97-Nothing

MGM02-Nothing
MGM01-Millionaire (minor)
MGM00-R&RC (major)
MGM99-Fantasmic (major)
MGM98-Bear/Doug/Drew (midlan)
MGM97-Nothing

Although we love WDW as it is, it is also great to see it grow and change, and YES I think we need more of this.

[cindyfan]

You forgot to add that 3 of the parks will be getting brand new parades!! And TON will be revised slightly ! :)
Considering the time and money that goes into parades I think that is pretty major!! :)

I also agree with budget cuts being meaningless!
And I don't know anyone that can truely last til midnight, unless they have taken a rest in the afternoon. Even on late night we have never stayed past 10 or 10:30 and that was to watch the parade or fireworks.

The quality is still there!! :) Maybe it is just that it isn't growing as fast as in previous years. But why would it need to. Let people enjoy what is there. There are alot of people that only go to WDW once in their lives or even just every few years...

It would be interesting to see the stats on how many people that go to WDW are "repeat" guests and how often they go..........once a year, every 3 years......????
Anyone out there know that stat???

[Another Voice]

I said that to myself several times as I waited in the twenty minute line to take the escalator down from Disneyland’s new parking structure. Fifteen thousand parking spaces with one set of escalators and one set of elevators make perfect sense.

Budgets don’t matter.

As I strolled past the abandoned Rocket Rods track and the shuttered ‘America The Beautiful’ building, I knew that budgets cuts don’t impact the magic on bit. Look, by the empty submarine lagoon, the characters from ‘Atlantis’ – proof that under funding story development has absolutely no impact on the final film.

It makes no difference to the magic.

How about a ride on the ‘Columbia’? Oops, more maintenance problems again. How about ‘Pirates’? Sorry, a boat sank because the floor board rotted – try again later. The ‘Haunted Mansion’ is nearby. You know, that peeling paint, broken windows and rusting queue lines really makes the place look haunted, doesn’t it. And you can hardly see the patch work in the scrims through the all the dust now. The place is decaying rather well.

No one notices these things.

What do we do while waiting for our ‘FastPass’?. Let’s do some shopping. Conveniently, the very same merchandise that I saw in Frontierland is right here on sale in Adventureland. Must be some sort of program to improve the guests’ experience. Want something to drink – well I’m sure we can find at least one food location that’s open. You think the profit margin on $2.50 for a small Coke would be worth hiring some kid at $5.95 an hour.

But it’s a sacrifice I’ll make for the good of the corporate budget.

Hey kids, let’s hop across the esplanade and visit that brand new park. The one that’s so financial well conceived and so fiscally responsible that they can afford to let kids in for FREE! What a marvel of business genius. Why look – an unthemed steel roller coaster, an attraction from WDW, a Ferris wheel, an attraction from WDW, a kiddie’s playground, an attraction from WDW, and lots and lots of carnival rides. Wow, you usually have to drive all the way to Santa Monica for this kind of stuff! And don’t forget your half of a tortilla. Yea, that video with Rosie and the bald guy from ‘Who’s Line’, tubular man – just cutting edge stuff! Who needs those E-ticket rides when you can have THAT kind of entertainment!?

Anything they put the ‘Disney’ name on just has to be good, doesn’t it?

As a consumer, I understand that the Company does not need to compete for my money. They don’t have to earn my business or to keep my trust. They have stockholders to please and I, as a simple ticket buyer, will never notice the cutbacks, reductions and eliminations to the product that I used to gladly buy. I just hand over my money and whisper to myself that budgets don’t matter. Really, they don’t.

[KimCon]

All I know is that I had a better time at Universal staying at PB and HRH for 7 nights than I had staying at the Polynesian 2 years ago. Didn't miss Disney at all!

Kim:wave: :wave: :wave:

[johare]

Same here...we are Orlando area residents and quit buying Disney seasonal passes a couple years ago. We've had Universal passes the past few years and we don't miss Disney one bit, though we still visit once a year for Mickey's Not So Scary Halloween Party so the kids can trick-or-treat at the 'not so Magic Kingdom'.

[DisDuck]

Same old, same old. A subjective look at what turns someone on about a theme park. Some like just thrills, some like just rides, some like a combination of both.

I have been to WDW (18 times), USF (5 times), IOA (twice), BG (twice), Circus World (for you old timers). I have seen the shows, rode the rides (except most coasters as I am not a coaster rider). In my very subjective opinion WDW offers a more balanced approach than the others and does a better job at THE SHOW (as DVC puts it) than the others.

At IOA last year I found Dudley to be poorly themed even with their BIG announcement about the new themeing. Poseidon was nice but I have seen similar at Ceasars Forum in Las Vegas. Sinbad bored my 16 yo daughter and was OK for me. T2-3d is spectacular but also hasn't changed much over the years so why complain about shows not changing at WDW if they don't change at USF. Think Beetlejuice as USF for a non-changing show.

How great is Triceratops Encounter or Pterodon at IOA. You want to talk about 'lame'.

So like what you like and we will like what we like.

[DisneyFanGuy]

Dear Disney.

I have spent my life with you. As a child I longed for your movies. As a teen I may not have seen you as much, but you never lost my heart. As an adult I have given you my trust and my faith.

I used examples of your company when I delivered seminars on focus, intelligence, and drive. I ordered from your on-line catelogs, visited your stores, and bought your clothing. I dined in your restaurants, stayed at your hotels, and swam in your pools.

I annually brought you many guests at Disneyland, where you re-captured their hearts too.

And I brought my children to you. Together we rode your rides, saw your shows, and read your books.

And then...........

Last year I was at Disneyland and my heart was broken. I saw dirty bathrooms, a Tiki Room with only 1/2 of the birds singing, the Haunted Mansion had rotted walls, and a "New Tomorrowland" where very little was new.

I was at DisneyWorld and went on 3 rides out of 3 offered at the AK before my children announced that they were bored. I found dirty bathrooms. I encountered my first rude employees, and I took in a new Journey to Imagination ride that almost brought me to tears.

I watched a park get built in CA that I have no desire to visit. That has NEVER happened before.

I went into a Disney Store and found my priceless collectables replaced by infant toys. My books replaced by stuffed animals. And for the first time ever, an employee tried to pressure me to buy something.

I waited for a Lion, and got instead a New Groove. I looked for Titanic and got instead a sunken harbor. I found myself laughing outloud at the "In Jokes" in someone else's movie just before I read about another round of layoffs among the people making yours.

Now I find myself using your company, along with others as examples of "Greatness" losing it's way. It breaks my heart to say your name along side of Xerox, Motorola, and others.

I can't wait forever, Disney. My heart can take only so much pain. You have lost my children already as they look to Universal, Busch, and others. Even if I still remain in your fold, who will carry the torch after I am gone? Will my children bring their children back? I don't think so, unless you take a serious look at what you are doing.





Please.

[DVC-Landbaron]

DisneyFanGuy,

I strongly suggest you send that letter. PLEASE!!!! To Ei$ner, Pre$$ler, Iger (damn! no 's' in the name!) and anyone else we can collectively think of. (Come on gang, let's get some names and addresses for him!!!)

PLEASE do it!! Just as written. Don't change a word. IT IS PERFECT!!

Thanks. And let us know how (or if) they respond.


PS: When you address it to Ei$ner and Pre$$ler, leave out the '$'. Just use a plain 's'. Something tells me they may not take it seriously otherwise!!! ;)

[johare]

DisDuck,

You want to talk about lame? Look no further than the latest MK has to offer...the Magic Carpets of Aladdin. Much more thrilling and fun than Pterandodon Flyers, right? Oh wait, don't forget the Big Blue Hat over at MGM. My kids will be begging me to take them to see that! What they are really looking forward to is more new parades...they just LOVE sitting on the curb for an hour waiting to see some foam-heads in snow-globe go by.

DisneyFanGuy,

SEND THAT LETTER!

[BRERALEX]

just wanna say heck yeah send that letter disneyfanguy

[HBK]

After all of the posts, all of the hours, and all of the energy I've spent arguing with Duck, JeffH, Captain, Peter, Yoho, et al.....DisneyFanGuy has summed up my frustration, feelings, and thoughts in one tidy post.

I hope you send that to Disney....if only to the customer service address.

[DisneyFanGuy]

I appreciate everyone's kind feedback. I will send the note exactly as is, but I need an address. Can anyone please provide it?

Thanks.

[DVC-Landbaron]

Unless someone beats me to it, I have Ei$ner's address. But, alas, it is on my computer at work. So we need to wait until tomorrow, at about 9:30 or so.

Sorry.

[Another Voice]

Disney has a sequel to 'The Love Bug' in active development right now. A remake of 'Escape to Witch Mountain' is already shooting, and a script is being written for a sequel to 'The Apple Dumpling Gang'.

As for seeing Greater Anaheim - I can easily do that from ground level from inside California Adventure. Sadly, that can not be done from Disneyland.

Perhaps the current "good" Disney is not so different from the ancient"bad" Disney as some would like to believe.

[HBK]

Originally posted by thedscoop
....AV and I finally agree!

Huh? Did you just do a total turnaround on your statement?

[Captain Crook]

For over a year!!! The interent has put such a spotlight on Disney that the glare is blinding...Eisner makes a succesful financial move and is lauded by the Street and lambasted by the purists. Eisner pays too much attention to core Disney and he's a hero to the purists but the stock plummets or, if they're successful, become a ripe takeover target once again...
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[ww52]

DisneyFanGuy:
I just want to second your comments wondering if our children and their children will have the same feeling about Disney as we did. I know my kids, all teenagers now and soon to be adults, have lost a lot of excitement for Disney. We haven't been to WDW in three years and they don't seem to miss it at all - they do want to see IOA however, especially after seeing some of the shows on the Discovery Channel or the Learning Channel. As has been said on many boards, Disney is losing its brand appeal. Many people on these boards will disagree, but I don't think the people who spend a lot of time on these boards represent the public at large.

I've said this before - when my kids get to the age when they are spending their own money on vacations - will they choose Disney? They've never been to DisneyQuest (we live less than hour away and go downtown to Chicago several times a year) and they never expressed a desire to go. Now it's closing - I'll bet tonight when I tell them none of them will express a desire to get there before it closes in September. But they all love Gameworks and go often (since its close, of course - but the fact is they are repeat customers there and have no desire to see DisneyQuest..)

How many disappointments can Disney take in one year (DCA, Pearl Harbor, to some extent Atlantis, now DisneyQuest). And the sequels? My kids laugh at it and compare it to the Land Before Time series (which I think is up to 5 or 6 now). There is no doubt that older kids like mine see it as a cheap money making ploy and a departure from quality. Sure - the videos sell well and a lot of little kids like them. But my kids liked He-Man and the Ninja Turtles when they were little - and we spent a ton of money on toys and videos etc. - but they sure don't see that as quality now that are older. Does Disney want to be thought of the same way by this generation?

Do they care?

[DVC-Landbaron]

First things first. The all important address!!

Michael Eisner
Walt Disney Corporation
500 S. Buena Vista Street
Burbank, California 91521

OK, now a couple of responses:

First thedscoop. No. My point has always been that today's Disney is not any better or worse than a couple of decades ago.Yeah, you might be right. When did Ei$ner take over. Hmmm. A couple decades ago (almost). Before that we were definitely in a stagnate period. But I contend that the situation that we find ourselves in today is much worse. And do not forget, the only reason that we were ripe for take over in the Walker/Miller days was because the film library and the parks (especially the Florida real estate holdings) were worth more apart than together! The parks were making money hand over fist! And don't kid yourself, we were taken over. From within.

No sir! I vehemently disagree! We were much better off (parks wise) several decades ago. The only thing that was need was a little forward movement. A plan for development. And in fairness to the Walker/Miller regime, that plan was already in effect. It was during their tenure that Touchstone was begun and The Little Mermaid was developed. Ei$ner inherited both.
It's just now we have these message boards to learn no info and critique more often and in greater detail.You know, I really can't refute this with any hard evidence. All I can do is give you my personal perceptions and history. Very subjective, I know.

When I first started losing faith in Disney I had never even heard of the DIS, Laughing Place, MousePlanet, WDWBLUES, RADP or any of the other countless internet sites. I thought all these things up, all by myself, through direct observation. I was feeling more and more frustrated at the 'dumbing down' of the Disney experience. I was saddened by what they were doing to the "SHOW". I felt they were quickly, almost as if on purpose, becoming… well… I guess, 'ordinary' is the best term to describe it. I was never a huge Walt fan, I didn't care for Mickey cartoons, Disney movies were only tolerable, and I didn't know spit about the rest of the company. But I knew the parks!! Boy, oh boy, I knew the parks. And I was intimately acquainted with the "Disney Experience". I could spot a 'Disney Touch' a mile away.

So, it was years before I connected, on-line, that I saw the first signs of the slippery slope we are now racing down. And I wonder if your take might not be a little inaccurate. Of course it could be that we are discussing 'the chicken and the egg'. But I feel that the internet has become a place where people can vent. Those people already have their opinions. The 'net' just provides a forum where they can come together and grip about what's wrong with the personal laughing place. But the ideas and concepts are formed away from the computer screen.

Let's face it. It didn't take the internet to help form the opinions held by HBK, JeffJewell or Another Voice, did it? No!! These opinions were already there. And conversely, how many converts have all our words and great thoughts created? Is DisDuck or The Captain or yourself signed up to drive in the car pool? No!!

Now I will grant you that the internet is a remarkable tool for education. When I first entered this realm I didn't know that the unique Disney experience I had been enjoying for the past thirty years was called the "SHOW". I knew nothing about Traditions. And I have come to admire this man called Walt and even have a fondness for quoting him (thanks again AV)!! But the 'feeling' was already there. The opinion was already formed. And the 'net' had nothing to do with it.

And now the Captian!!Eisner pays too much attention to core Disney and he's a hero to the purists but the stock plummets…I'm a purist. And in case I haven't made myself clear - I don't think he's a hero. Ever! ;)

[All Aboard]

I'm just going to loft one response in here. Several posters have mentioned that their kids "used to be interested in WDW, but aren't any more."

This is one area where I think Disney is missing a niche, without a doubt. It's with teenagers. I propose that Disney hasn't changed that much, rather your kids may have. They long for IOA based on a show on the Discovery Channel. I've seen that show, it's not about the Carrosuessel or the Pteradon Flyers or Red Fish Blue Fish. Instead it's about Dueling Dragons, Hulk and Spiderman.

That's what kids between the ages of 10 and 18 are interested in. More so today than ever before. They want to be thrilled to the limit, and WDW doesn't offer them very much and never has.

On occaision, I have eavesdropped around the park entrances to listen to guest responses to surveys. It is amazing how often the lack of thrilling attractions is mentioned as a shortcoming.

But, that's not what the Disney purists want to hear. Trouble is, PoC, HM, CoP have lost a great deal of their appeal. We absolutely adore these experiences, we want more of that. Most of today's youth likely find them boring once they hit about 8-10 years old. Unfortunately, seems like we are in a computer world and WDW is still relying on some sliderules. Tremendously built and marvelous slideules, but sliderules nonetheless.

[ww52]

Darn - I didn't intend to start up a debate about Disney and thrill rides. While I know my kids at this stage of their lives prefer those types of rides, I don't think they are looking for Disney to compete in that area. This part of my opinion is not well thought out, so I probably better stop right there - I might be wrong anyway.

My main point was on overall quality - sequels being one example, DQ being another, and DCA (or their perception of it) being another. The fact that the Disney brand has lost some of its shine in their eyes - which will soon translate into lost dollars for the company when they start planning their own vacations.

[All Aboard]

I've been invited to both car pools and several back yard barbeques, I'm getting an identity crises. YoHo, I guess we need our own car pool as "in-betweeners", eh? I remain firmly in the "WDW still gets lots of my money" camp, though. Just booked three more late fall trips under the just released AP rates. That will make my total 12 trips (42 nights - all on-property) for 2001. The Magic (or quality) hasn't dimmed for me one iota. Same is true of the rest of my family.

[DVC-Landbaron]

LOL gcurling!! Both you and YoHo specifically (and many others) did cross my mind as I wrote. And to be honest I didn't know what car you belonged in. And to be painfully honest, and don't tell thedscoop, but I kind of thought you two in particular would weaken my argument. I think that out of our entire group you two probably HAVE been influenced by our dialogues. Probably the more opened minded among us. Not hardheaded like the opposition ;) or absolutely right like the people in our car! ;) ;) (that one deserved two winks!!)

Anyway I want to take a ride in your car once in while though. I remain firmly in the "WDW still gets lots of my money" camp, though.Remember. Only four weeks until my two week WDW extravaganza!! Talk about a lot of money!!!! It ain't 42 nights, but then again, I don't live in Florida!!!

[HBK]

I propose that Disney hasn't changed that much, rather your kids may have.

Gcurling....you're right....the parks haven't changed. That's the problem. The teenagers who are a "niche" consumer group now, are going to be the parents who take their "niche" children to the parks tomorrow.

If today's children develop a fondness for IOA, Bush, Six Flags, et al.....Disney's a distant memory. And it will be even harder for them to gain back the brand loyalty and trust at that point.

Once someone's out the door, they're gone. And the effect is far more reaching than most of us can comprehend.

I don't advocate or desire a complaint free world. I just believe that there would have been just as many HBK's complaining about Walt's lack of land planning when he built Disneyland as there are today complaining about the lack of vision in park planning.

I disagree with that statement. Walt's company didn't approach it's potential customers with a blatant intent of getting as much money from them as possible. Walt's business philosophies made his company different than others....so different that his company has BBs on the Internet discussing it. How many Kodak or Motorola BBs do you think there are on the net? Do you think Energizer has a "fan Club" who discuss the company's upcoming products?

[All Aboard]

Date and time Scoop, that's all I need. I can be there in 3.5 hours. I got first round.

[ww52]

gcurling:

42 nights in one year! Almost a month and a half at WDW! Speaking as someone who has not been back since 1998 (and wishes every day that we were planning another trip) I truly am envious.

But tying this in with the issue of quality - and with all due respect - I am of the opinion that Disney ought to be somewhat curious as to what families like mine think (who went four times in five years and then stopped) and more importantly what the next generation of consumers think. People who spend a great deal of time there are more than fans - and far from typical. It's obviously a part of your life and it would probably take an enormous decline before you'd stop going.

[Another Voice]

If you really want a debate, let’s have it Avalon Cove so we can gaze at the magic of Paradise Pier (and the power lines). :smooth:

Disney has always been under more intense inspection that almost all other companies. And probably rightly so – Disney define a large chunk of American culture. What’s happening today is nothing compared to either the thirties or the sixties when Disney was routinely labeled as Evil. Being called “creativity fatigued” is nothing like being called “the white males’ capitalist tool to oppress The People by indoctrinating children with racist, sexist, classist tales from a dead Anglo ruling class” (the 1960’s were really fun). I don’t think the internet has changed anything – it’s a new communication media, but the content is still the same. E-mails or letters to Public Relations, chat rooms or meeting down at the Elks Ledge. It’s the same result.

[cindyfan]

Re: Teenagers not liking Disney

I grew up with Disney.....All those movies like "Herbie" etc..... actually Mary Poppins was the very first movie I remember seeing at the theatre. LOVED Disney as a child.....watched Wonderful..... every Sunday night!
Then I hit those "evil" years (as I like to refer to them, since my child was a teenager). Anyway once I passed those years, By age 20 I faithfully returned to loving Disney again
This is the same story with my daughter who is now 25. LOVED Disney as a child. Her first trip to WDW was at the age of 7. But then she entered the "evil" years of being a teenager. When she was 13 and we went to WDW, she played the "bored" teenager. It just wasn't "cool" to like Disney......Disney was "family" stuff, and Mickey Mouse...... But I did catch her smiling ear to ear as we watch the electical parade!!! She denied it! :)
Anyway, since finishing college she has been there twice. Had her Honeymoon on the Disney Cruise and is planning her next trip. she now teaches Jr High (oh those evil years! rather ironic!! ) and proudly displays anything Disney at school!!!! :)

The point I am making is that you can't base anything on what teenagers want or like. Because it is that "age" thing. Disney is not "cool" at that age.

Disney is FAMILY and it will always have that special place in the family life.

[DisneyFanGuy]

Well my family is turned off. Not just the kids, but my wife and I. We constantly discuss the fact that if we are a typical family (Who knows?) then Disney is miss-reading their market.

All of us love the "Old Disney". By that I mean the Haunted Mansion, Castles in the moonlight, fireworks, many of the EPCOT originals, etc. I guess if you put a timeline on it, almost anything built before 1990. The last "Old Disney" kind of attraction that I can think of is Splash Mountain. Though my kids complain about Its a Small World, they "get it" if that makes any sense. We always all come off it smiling and laughing.

We love some of the "Middle Disney" E tickets. Indy in DL, TOT, etc. The last really creative "E" ticket that I can think of is TOT. We all race to that attraction.

Anything that has been built in the last three years is very "iffy" though. We all thought Kali was lame, and in general liked only three attactions in the entire AK. My family got bored after 1/2 day. We were aghast at JIYI. We also noticed for the first time (this past year) that the parks had dropped in service and cleanliness. I could go on, but the point is that my kids liked the old, most of the middle, and little of the new. I think that is telling. Disney is assuming that the younger set will stick around if they do nada to attract them. I think that is a mistake.

[space42]

I agree 100% with Disneyfanguy.

I too think the last GREAT Disney attraction (in the US)was Splash Mountain. I hope Disney returns to building quality E-Ticket attractions like this again sometime soon. However, I do not see anything that makes me think they are going to. That is unless you want to travel to Tokyo and go to DisneySea :cool:

Instead we get a carnival at Animal Kingdom, a spinner at MK, Thrill rides to replace ATTRACTIONS at EPCOT, and a BAH at the Studios. ICK!

[JeffH]

30 years ago, Walt was running out of ideas and was sitting on the success of Disneyland and his animated classics. We saw very few movies out of Disney Studios, (Jungle Book being the last of Walt's work), and all Walt could gave us was a clone of Disneyland (- the Matterhorn) in the form of the Magic Kingdom. It opened with a handful of rides, NO roller coasters or thrill rides of any sort. Most attractions were dark rides of one sort or another, with Dumbo and the Carrosel being the center of it all. They E attractions of the time were Haunted Mansion, 20K Leagues, Jungle Cruise and Country Bears. Entertainment was lip-synced and 'artificial'. And Walt left us with plans for a bunch of themed resort hotels (a ratio of 6 hotels/campgrounds to 1 theme park) and basically what is now Celebration. The stores to attraction ratio heavily favored the stores. The themed resort hotels were dropped and all we were left with was the MK. A new attraction showed up every year or 2 or 3 and it SLOWLY grew to what it is today, after 30 years. This sounds pretty familiar to me, IN FACT IT SOUND JUST LIKE MOST OF THE COMPLAINTS I READ RIGHT HERE?!?!...
Eisner came on board and as I remember, THEN came Splash and the Little Mermaid and a while afterwards Touchtone was developed followed by several other production companies that release an amazing number of excellent entertaining films, which continue today. The animation department was re-energized and has created masterpieces/classics since (and I'm sorry, but box-office results do not determine when a film is a masterpiece/classic. As far as I'm concerned, the only reason the Lion King did so well at the box office, was because it didn't offend anyone and had a basic generic message).
Eisner's 1st theme park attempt at WDW was Disney Studios, and although it was pretty weak when it opened, it has become one of the best theme parks I've ever experienced. Eisner's 2nd theme park at WDW (not including the water parks which are considered among the best in the country), AK, is a masterpiece in the works.
What really disturbs me, is that Disney Studios puts a great deal of money into a magnificent film (Pearl Harbor), brings in the best talent, with little hope of recouping the investment in the short term (ie: it isn't the money that matters but the 'investment' in the product), created an 'epic' which did quite well for a 'historic' film, and created a tremendous awareness of WWII during Memorial Day (the WWII specials ran for about 2 weeks as a direct result of the film), yet all I could hear from the Internet 'experts' was what a bomb it was.
WDW is alive with live entertainment from simple street acts to Broadway 'style' shows, well themed rides, as well as a nice compliment of well themed 'thrill' rides. WDW pays their cast members better than any other theme park pays their help and their benifits are better.
Tasha and I are well on our way of beating our record of days at WDW this year, with probably 50 days there. We just got back from yet another weekend at WDW, and again had a better time than ever. In fact we have spent almost (-1) every weekend at WDW since Easter (over 22 days), and plan to go back our next 2.
There is so much to do, and the quality is so good that we enjoy it over and over again, and there is so many special things that happen that it's hard to not have a special time each trip.
Better off several decades ago, far from it! Several decades (3) ago the MK was a shell of the clone of what it was, with fireworks being the only night time entertainment, not a thrill ride to be seen and nothing new in the future. Funny thing is, the MK is still there, and those of you who think those were the days, can still go to the MK and stay at the Polonesian, and simply not go to Epcot, DS, AK, or any other of the multitude of experiences offered by DD and the resort hotes.

[Captain Crook]

Very good post! Thanks for efficiently stating things I think about! MK was nothing groudbreaking at inception and for years to come. But little by little, brick by brick & step by step it has evolved as has MGM & I still have little doubt that AK will follow suit. Therefore who's to say that DCA won't be quite fanciful in 8 or 10 years as well?

As for IOA, my 12 year old daughter just went (from tennis camp) and said Spiderman was truly great, the coaster were very good but the theming was just weird, the park wasn't too clean and the employees ("every one" she said) were rude. So, since I don't like big coasters, I'll stick with Disney and hope they outdue Spiderman with their next effort.

For thedscoop, this may not make you feel any better but the Pirate & I;) and our daughters are on track for another 40 day year ourselves!
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[hopemax]

), and all Walt could gave us was a clone of Disneyland (- the Matterhorn) in the form of the Magic Kingdom.

Ummm....this is not sitting well with me. From what I've read Walt didn't want to build a Disneyland clone. But like we've talked about in another thread, sometimes business neccessity outweighs personal desires. Florida wanted a Disneyland clone. Walt wanted the Reedy Creek Improvement District and freedom to do what he wanted. In order to get that, he gave Florida the Disneyland clone.

And Walt didn't really give us the clone anyway, Roy did. We don't know what Walt would have built, and what he would have done to change up the lineup. No rollercoasters or thrill rides in 1971 doesn't seem like that big of a problem. DL only had 1 , Magic Mountain's thrill rides were the Log Jammer and Jet Stream, they got a second coaster in 1973. It doesn't seem that the MK was that far behind the curve?

[johare]

I guess everyone has a different opinion on the current state of Disney. I don't quite have the 'rose colored glasses' view that many recent posters seem to have.

I realize and accept that parks need time to grow and mature much like MK did, however there is NO EXCUSE for peeling paint, burnt out light bulbs, trash not being picked up promptly, 45+ minute waits for buses, cheap carnival type rides and the general 'bad attitude' Disney seems to have lately. Before they even think of adding another E-Ticket ride they need to worry about getting the parks back to the quality levels that Disney used to be known for.

I can't make excuses for their recent films either. Epic or not, Pearl Harbor sucked. The special effects were cool for about 30 minutes but other than that the movie was the most uncreative, uninspired thing I've seen in a long time. I haven't seen Atlantis yet, but friends have and even though they were Disney fans, they were disappointed with it...and they loved Shrek. And I'm sorry, but box office results DO determine when a movie is a classic/masterpiece.

[All Aboard]

Johare, you haven't seen Atlantis? Weren't you just calling it a "crappy" movie a couple of days ago??

Looks like we've got a couple of camps of WDW detractors going now. Group 1: Disney used to build great attractions, now they are replacing them with thrill rides. And, Group 2: I'm going to IOA because they really know how to thrill ya.

Burned out light bulbs, peeling paint? I hear it, but I don't see it. And, yes, I AM looking, each and every time I go. And correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Landbaron dismiss most of those things in his last "state of the parks" report.

Here is a quote from an old college buddy of mine who recently took his family to WDW for the first time. Quite honestly, I didn't figure him for a "magic" type of guy. But, upon return, here is what he wrote me:

Do you know of any resources to read about how Disney operates the park? It struck me that there was not a single light bulb out, or a broken animatronic figure, or even a blade of grass that wasn't cut. And yet, I never saw a single maintenance person. I'd love to know how they do it.

After receiving his email, I first told him that there was a band of folks out there that sure didn't see it the way he did. I directed him to wdwblues as an example, he wrote back:

Feel free to cut and paste my impressions. I looked briefly at wdwblues - what a bunch of jerks! I don't understand the blind animus toward corporations, particularly Disney, that seems to motivate these people. Disney World is 1000 times cleaner, nicer, and better operated than any entertainment complex in the world.

I completely agree.

[johare]

thedscoop,

If box office results don't determine what makes a movie a classic/masterpiece who does? Is there an elite panal of people who are somehow more qualified then the general public to bestow the title of classic upon a movie? There are probably a few exceptions (ie, Wizard of Oz) but I think most movies that would be refered to as a 'masterpiece' have done well at the box office.

gcurling,

Yes, I did refer to Atlantis is crappy and I based that on what I heard from my neighbors and friends at work. The best review I got of it was "it's ok...a few funny spots but it wasn't really that great". Sorry if that was somehow misleading.

There are groups of WDW detractors here, but there are also plenty of people who are so blinded with pixie dust that they just can't see the problems that the parks are having lately. I've seen burnt out bulbs. I've seen peeling paint and rusty fixtures. I've seen good attractions replaced with crap or just closed. The fact that you "completely agree" with a quote which states that "Disney is 1000 times cleaner, nicer and better operated than ANY other entertainment complex" shows just how blind you are to reality when it comes to Disney. You really think Disney is 1000 times cleaner? That means for every single piece of trash I see on the ground at Disney I'll find 1000 pieces of trash at USF/IOA. For every burnt out light bulb at WDW I'll find 1000 at USF/IOA? Ridiculous. How about 1000 times nicer? Every review I've read of IOA puts it right on par with Disney parks as far as theming and attractions go, yet you and your misguided friend (if he/she even really exists) feel Disney is still 1000 times nicer.

[Captain Crook]

Kind of funny that as I said earlier, my "misguided" and actually existing 12 year old daughter said the same thing about cleanliness as gcurlings friend when comparing IOA to WDW...And don't forget the CM's vs. employees's!

If you've read the "Animation Vs. Walt" thread that I started you can clearly see that at least 5 of Walt Disney's now Classic and (IMO great) movies were box office fiasco's. The nature of the reasons for their failure is irrelevent, but they failed at the box office and yet the cream has still risen to the top...Which leads to what I think determines "Classic" status in the end, that being all of us. What movies stand the test of time? Jurrasic Park was huge, will it stand up? Probably not, but box office receipts don't a classic make...
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[All Aboard]

Johare, I am feeling somewhat "attacked" by the tone of your post.

First, Jerry is very much a real person, and a great guy to boot. Second, his 1000x reference is obviously not literal. Third, thanks for telling me that I'm blind. I didn't realize it. I've been going to WDW since the mid-1970's. I've been during all phases of development. There are very few attractions, resorts, restaurants, or shops that I didn't see being built. I'm not happy with JIYI nor am I [that] happy with 20k lagoon sitting empty for several years. The latter doesn't bother me too much, though. I'm not too happy with the Dinoland concept, but I bet my daughter will enjoy the heck out of it. Am I troubled that the Explorer Canoes are no longer, or that I can no longer ride on Mike Fink's Keelboat or the Swan Boats, not really. So many other great attractions have come along that I have no reason to miss those. And no, I don't see pervasive maintenance problems, I am not blind, I see quite well. And I do spend an enormous amount of time at WDW, and I do look for these things. And yes, I've been to Universal Orlando several times. It's a nice place, but it doesn't have WDW beat in any arena other than high speed, body twisting, gut wrenching experiences, in my opinion. Those are fun, but don't possess the Magic of WDW. Magic that has not diminished because World of Motion was replaced by Test Track and Mission:Space is replacing Horizons. Those changes were anticipated from Day 1 at Epcot. Future World attractions are supposed to change, that's the nature of the park. The reason they are changing to thrill attractions is in response to exit interviews.

Nearly all of the "old school" attractions still exist at WDW. You can still experience 90+% of what you could in the late 1970's. It's all still there and in the same great presence as always.

No, I'm not blind. I see the pure delight on the face of my daughter every time we are there. And nothing brings joy to my heart more than that.

And if you think I'm alone, spend a little time on the trip reports board, the dvc board, or the community board. There are millions who agree with me, Pirate, Duck, scoop, jeffH, et al.

[johare]

It's not box office receipts alone that make a classic, however they do play a BIG part in it. Look at this site: http://www.the-movie-times.com/thrsdir/Top10everad.html

...and tell me which of these do not deserve to be refered to as classics? What movies that you feel are classics are missing from this list?

I do not dislike WDW...it is still a wonderful place to go for a vacation, but I do feel that they have really slipped lately on quality and maintenance of the parks. I guess people will see what they want though. Last time I was at AK (about a year ago) I was in the queue for the safari ride and there were trash cans which were overflowing on to the ground below. I went to MK with some friends from up north for Mickey's Very Merry Christmas Party last December and they even commented about the little bits of trash on the ground here and there that they never saw on previous trips. As far as cleanliness, yes, your 12 year old daughter is also misguided if she (or anyone) thinks that WDW is 1000 times cleaner than IOA. I might agree that WDW is VERY slightly cleaner than the Universal parks, but it's definately not twice as clean and to make or agree with a comment like "WDW is 1000 TIMES cleaner and nicer" is just ridiculous.

[Sarangel]

OK, first of all, Johare: Kindly refrain from questioning people's truthfulness on the boards, your post in response to gcurling is not in the spirit of this board. Reasoned debate is allowed, but this sort of spitefulness is not appropriate.

Secondly, it seems like there's been a spate of posts that aren't respectful of other people's opinions lately. I'd like to encourage all posters to realize that other poster's opinions are valid, even if you don't agree with them. Johare thinks Atlantis wasn't a good film (even though s/he hasn't seen it), I happen to disagree. If we want to debate plot, storyline, cinematography, and effects, that's OK. If it goes beyond that, the moderators will have to step in and edit or delete posts.

Lrodk & I both try to let the discussions have free reign, since that's what we're all here for, but we will step in more often if this sort of thing keeps up.

Sarangel

[Sarangel]

And, now, the post I meant to post before I got sidetracked by my moderator duties:

I too think the last GREAT Disney attraction (in the US)was Splash Mountain.

I hate to keep bringing this up, but California Soarin' is amazing (it's still getting applause at the end of the ride, as recently as last weekend). I know it's out here in California, but that doesn't mean that they aren't building really amazing rides, just that they are few and far between.

Sarangel

[johare]

gcurling,

Sorry if you feel "attacked", but I often feel that way too just because I don't look through the same 'rose colored glasses' as many of the posters here. I realize that the "1000 times" thing was an exaggerated, but you did say that you "completely agreed" with the comment. FYI: just like you didn't mean the "1000 times" post to be taken literally, neither did I mean for comments like "blinded by pixie dust" or "blind to reality" to infer that a person was actually blind. :cool:

I went to the MK once in the early 70's and have been going regularly since I moved to the Orlando area in 1990. With few exceptions (Splash, ToT and maybe Test Track) they really haven't added anything over the past 10 years which impresses me. I've also seen quality, cleanliness and attention to detail greatly diminish over the past 10 years. I still think WDW is a great place and would find it hard to not have a great time there, but I think they could do MUCH better and I think their customers deserve better. As for IOA, we (myself, wife and 7 and 4 year old sons) feel that it is every bit the equal to Disney and every bit as magical. You are right that Universal doesn't have the "Magic of WDW" and that's a good thing...Universal has the "Magic of Universal" which is every bit as special to some people as your disney magic is to others. Universal/IOA is NOT just about "high speed, body twisting, gut wrenching experiences", but if people are closed minded and too full of disney's pixie dust they just might miss that fact.

As for your "millions who agree" with you, let see...you mention Pirate, Duck, scoop, jeffH....only 1,999,996 more to go! :) btw: Go check out the Universal Forums and you'll find people who find Universal every bit as magical as WDW.

[All Aboard]

they really haven't added anything over the past 10 years which impresses me.
OK, but why must things be "added"? Personaly, I think WDW would be great if nothing else was ever added.

I still think WDW is a great place and would find it hard to not have a great time there Wonderful! I agree! Would you like a turn at the steering wheel of car #1 ;) ;)

Universal/IOA is NOT just about "high speed, body twisting, gut wrenching experiences", but if people are closed minded and too full of disney's pixie dust they just might miss that fact.

No, no, I didn't say that was ALL it was about. I just said that's the only arena in which it leads WDW. I know there's more to it. They've got some great stuff there. Just missing the elements that have made WDW the world leader.

I might agree that WDW is VERY slightly cleaner than the Universal parks
Now see, I thought you were of the opinion that the Universal parks far surpassed WDW in this area. Sorry for the mistake.

[Another Voice]

Where to start…..

Walt didn’t care a bit for the Magic Kingdom at Disney World. He let others develop that section to please the money people. A clone was a guaranteed money maker to fund the real purpose for the Florida Project. Walt’s interest and energy were focused on EPCOT which he felt was going to be his real legacy. And EPCOT was nothing like Celebration in any sense.

Touchstone Pictures was created well before Mr. Eisner showed up on the scene. ‘Splash’ was released and was a hit long before Eisner was a gleam in Roy E.’s eye. In fact, there was a long line of Touchstone Pictures that were released or in development well before Mr. Eisner took control. The biggest changes Eisner made to the Studio was to push for hard-R rated movies and to raid the Betty Ford Clinic for cheap talent.

Both ‘Little Mermaid’ and ‘Beauty and the Beast’ were in development before Eisner came on board as well. In fact, he wanted both pictures shut down – and only Jeffrey Katzenberg was able to talk him out of it. Mr. Eisner’s contribution to animation was ‘Oliver and Company’, a film he was determined was “hip and exciting”. He also really like that ‘Rescuers Down Under’ flick since his future for animation is action/adventure.

The magic of the revived Disney animation was created by Alan Menken, Howard Ashman, Linda Wolverton and Jeffrey Katzenberg. Compare the films produced by this group to the films produced after. Eisner came in intending to shut-down feature animation and convert everything to Saturday morning children’s show. For a while people were able to stop him, but no longer.

‘Pearl Harbor’ has already become a shorthand phrase for “high profile failure” here in Hollywood. The film was disowned by both its writer and its director before it was released. Estimates are that the film will loose the company roughly $50 million dollars when the video and international sales are finished. The film’s producer has already taken his next project – ‘Blackhawk Down’ to another studio. It’s the studio run by the Disney studio chief that Eisner fired right before he fired the last one. A sadder comment is that Disney spent more money on the premier party for ‘Pearl’ than it cost to make the leading contender for this year’s Best Picture Oscar (‘Memento’). So much for an “instant classic”.

Rose colored glasses or blinders. Everyone has their own choice of eyewear.

[DVC-Landbaron]

I normally don't do "ditto" type posts (or at least I try not to). But this one was an exception. Not only was the content right on the money but there is one quote that had me on the floor. And isn't that why we're here after all? To have a little fun? So, even if you don't like what Av said, I think you could at least get a chuckle out of how he says it!!
The biggest changes Eisner made to the Studio was to push for hard-R rated movies and to raid the Betty Ford Clinic for cheap talent.
Thanks again AV!! You are the man!!

[HBK]

They've got some great stuff there. Just missing the elements that have made WDW the world leader.

The only thing missing from what I've seen of the park (and I'll see it first hand in October) is the Disney brand name & characters.

At the rate in which Ei$ner & Co have been trowing away that brand name recognition, Universal will be caught up in no time.

[F.C. Fan]

The cleanliness of the parks will keep going down unless people stop by Guest Relations at the parks and make their observations known.

It's not the people who do the physical work, not even the managers above them, but the higher ups the people who just sit in their air-conditioned/heated offices in charge of the money, and who never hardly ever venture out into the parks themselves, that keeping cutting hours, money, and employees in Janitorial at WDW and Park Services at USF.

These crews are constantly understaffed,and underpaid, the equipment is sometimes not up to par, morale is usually very low.

It is so hard to keep those parks clean with little or no help, and people that don't want to give even 50% to their job. I know I used to do it for USF, it's not easy work pressure washing/hosing the streets and buildings and some of the rides for 6-8 hours straight form 11pm to 7am.

I know for a fact the same things go on at WDW as well (people are always going back and forth between the companies and would tell me things are really no better at either company).

I used to go way beyond the call of duty.Why?? It certainly wasn't the money, a little of it was for the benefits but for the most part I gave it my all for the "guests" themselves, and being able to look back at the job or area I just did, and knowing that it would for the most part be overlooked by most people but if it made anyone's vacation or visit more enjoyable then it was all woth it.

So like I said before if you do notice cleanliness standards dipping down make it known, or else the people in charge of the money, employees and their hours for that department will keep getting away with it.

[hopemax]

If this is true, some traditional classics are in trouble because they were not real commerically successful.

Which ones were you thinking about...

On the adjusted all-time box office standings

http://www.boxofficereport.com/atbon/adjusted.shtml

10 Snow White (1937)*$184.9 $587.6 m
11 101 Dalmatians (1961)* $152.6 m $566.9 m
15 Mary Poppins (1964)* $102.3 m $501.3 m
19 The Jungle Book (1967)* $135.5 m $466.4 m
22 Fantasia (1940)* $76.4 m $447.6 m
25 The Lion King (1994) $312.9 m $403.4 m
26 Sleeping Beauty (1959)* $51.6 m $391.6 m
30 Bambi (1942)* $102.8 m $379.4 m
36 Pinocchio (1940)* $84.3 m $363.3 m
45 Cinderella (1950)* $91.3 m $336.8 m
61 Lady and the Tramp (1955)* $93.6 m $300.3 m
76 Aladdin (1992) $217.4 m $282.3 m
79 Song of the South (1946)* $65.0 m $277.8 m
92 Toy Story 2 (1999) $245.8 m $260.8 m
105 Peter Pan (1953)* $87.4 m $245.9 m
155 Swiss Family Robinson (1960)* $40.4 m $204.9 m

[johare]

gcurling,

OK, but why must things be "added"? Personaly, I think WDW would be great if nothing else was ever added.

I'm would have been ok with this serveral years ago...before they replaced JII with JIYI, before they closed Horizons, before they close 20K under the sea, before they closed the Skyway, before they replaced Mr. Toad with Pooh and generic pooh gift show, before they built 2-3 more Dumbo clones, before they put a big ugly blue hat at MGM, before they built a cheap carnival at AK, etc... hopefully you get the point. They would have been better doing nothing at all over the past 10 years vs. what they've wasted money on.


Wonderful! I agree! Would you like a turn at the steering wheel of car #1

Not unless you want me to drive that car over to Universal! :)
No, I still don't belong in car #1 because I definately don't feel the magic is as strong as ever. I'm can be somewhat optimistic about the 'magic', but I do believe that it is in some serious trouble lately. I guess that would leave me somewhere between #2 and #3.

No, no, I didn't say that was ALL it was about. I just said that's the only arena in which it leads WDW. I know there's more to it. They've got some great stuff there. Just missing the elements that have made WDW the world leader.

I guess this is another area where we disagree because I don't think 'thrills' is the only area in which Universal leads WDW. I think IOA is themed as well as anything Disney has ever done. Cat in the Hat is better than any 'dark ride' in Fantasyland, in fact I think Suess Landing beats Fantasyland. The onsite hotels are the equal of anything I've seen at Disney. What elements do you think are missing at Universal that make WDW the world leader? I think the main thing that Universal is missing is the Disney name and the childhood memories that are attached to it. The children of today aren't as into Disney as they were years ago and if Disney doesn't do a little more to build memories and magic now, it's going to continue to hurt them in the future.

Now see, I thought you were of the opinion that the Universal parks far surpassed WDW in this area. Sorry for the mistake.

No, but chasing every single gum wrapper or cigarette butt that hits the ground isn't that important to me. I think for the most part both WDW and Universal keep their parks very clean, but there are exceptions to both. I've seen areas at Universal Studios which needed some cleaning up, but I've also encountered overflowing trash cans in the queue lines at AK. Neither park is perfect here, but right now I might give a VERY slight edge to Disney here.

[DisDuck]

Johare, I have been at IOA twice, pre-openng and April of 2000. Did not expect much at pre-opening liked Jurrasic but that Pterodon was lame and Tricerotops a total waste of Money. Loved Spiderman. Now when back last year with everything opened, it took me from 9am to 3am to see everything that I cared to see. Pterodon was now limited to little kids only and I did not even look for Tricerotops Encounter. I am nor is my daughter and wife into coasters so we bypassed them. Went on Spider, so great and did Dudley and Popeye for the first time. Dudley's themeing was a DUD. I had read on the Universal forum before going how they had upgraded the themeing, if that was an upgrade gee I wonder what it looked like before, must have been real bad. I liked the park overall but did not get the feeling of 'magic'/'show' that I get a Disney.

I have mentioned several times when posting to these kinds of discussions, appraisal of a park is very subjective. We each have certain things/themes we like and others we don't like. I am not a thrill/coaster person, neither is my younger daughter so IOA is nice but not an all-day park to me nor does it take me back to being a child again. And I read Dr. Suess and was an advid comic book reader so I knew all about the Marval and Suess areas but they just didn't do it for me. WDW does.

That is my subjective opinion and I feel like I am going home when at WDW.

Will I return to IOA or even USF next year? Don't know. If my wife and daughter want to then yes; otherwise not.

So to say one park is 'greater' than 'another'; one park is falling behind another is subjective. As someone posted if more go to IOA/USF then less lines at WDW, that's fine with me.

[All Aboard]

Hope,

the "*" on those film dates indicate that total receipts are from all releases. Many (if not most) of them made that list because of the re-releases, not the initial release.

[YoHo]

Thanks gcurling, I was going to mention that as well. as much as I like to harp on that list as being more realistic then a list that doesn't adjust. the one thing it ignores is relreleases. now IIRC Disney is set to re-release Beauty to Theaters. in some ways this is unprecidented. In this day and age, VCRs and DVDs have killed theatrical re-releases(From a revenue standpoint) Example, I am 26 years old and Saw pinochio in the theater in the late 70's. the money my parents payed is included in its total gross.

[Another Voice]

I’m falling behind here on some of the sub-threads.

The only factor that makes a “classic” is story. Good storytelling is about people and we haven’t changed much since the ancient Greeks. Good stories will hold up over thousands of years, bad ones fade in a week. Any movie that can be watched and enjoyed twenty, thirty, fifty years after it was made is a classic. In some films you can spot strong stories right away – people will still be watching ‘Beauty and The Beast’ fifty years from now. Others are so weak they can’t support a movie through a month in the theaters (‘Pearl Harbor’).

Box office is important way to at least gage the immediate impact of a story. If you can convince fifty million people to leave their homes and pay to see something, you must have touched a nerve somewhere. But a “box office hit” today means something vastly different today than it did in either the pre-VCR or pre-television world. That’s why this whole exercise in picking out Walt’s flops is somewhat misguided – you can’t use modern standards to judge what happened fifty years ago.

Before television, films would be release for years traveling from city to city. Movie distribution was almost like that for theatrical plays. A film was expected to earn money slowly over a long period of time. There were a few giant hits like ‘Gone With The Wind’ and ‘Snow White’ that made fortunes right from the beginning, but only a few. Most films were like ‘Casablanca’ – they just hung around for a long time and earned money. Time weeded out the good ones from the bad ones.

Today’s media saturated world is entirely different. Thanks to television, movies have become fast food – enjoyed in a hurry and disposed of just as fast. The goal is to get in and get the money before the next new thing comes along. And thanks to the VCR the theatrical release for most movies is nothing but marketing for the home video sales group. The size of the audience has grown tremendously because of all the different means of distribution (theaters, cable, DVD, etc.), but the life span of a film has been compressed to compensate.

A lot of the Disney classics made fortunes through the re-releases. In fact, it used to be a cherished truth in the company that the financial “flop” called ‘Fantasia’ had been in theaters somewhere in the world every single day since 1940 and was a consistent money maker. Today, movies burn through their life span in 36 months – from glittering Hollywood premier to DVD release to video wallpaper on third rate cable channels.

Time sorts out classics from the mediocre. It’s the willingness of an audience to continuing watching the story being told whether it was last weekend’s box office leader or a silent movie from the beginning of last century. That’s why a “flop” like ‘Pinocchio’ is a classic, and strong box office for ‘Atlantis’ doesn’t mean a long shelf life.

[hopemax]

I know it includes re-releases, but the end result is that even movies that under-performed in initial release became commercial successes.

Today's films don't have the advantage of re-releases, because of PPV, VCR's, DVD's and a myriad of other factors. And maybe someday we will see those sales figures included in a total.

But that doesn't change that Pinocchio, Bambi, Fantasia and the rest have made a ton of money, and thus can be called successful films.

[JustBob]

I know it's backing up a bit, but regarding whether kids like things or think they "suck" (a term I really find distasteful) - their attitude is largely influenced by our attitude. Strangely enough, however, when they're kids and preteens they tend to agree with our attitude, when they're teens they tend to do what they can to say they disagree with our attitude.
So, if a parent of a small child thinks things are boring, and sends those vibes to the kid, the kid will think things are boring. If a parent of a teen likes a lot of things, the teen will inevitably think it's boring. I know this is really general, but I think we tend to let the kids be the ones determining whether something is good or not. In today's culture kids (and parents) seem to be the most easily jaded of all time. NOTHING is ever good enough, or cool enough. Hence every movie, and thrill ride, and attraction, is busting a gut to be the next special effects extravaganza.
I guess that's why I agree with those who say they love Disney for a lot of reasons, one of which is the generally outstanding live entertainment and shows.

Oh well, I love the debate, let's just continue to play nice.

[Laurajean1014]

What a crock! Don't agree with this at all.

Me and Mickey won't been seeing you any time soon!

[JeffH]

"I don't quite have the 'rose colored glasses' view that many recent posters seem to have. "
No, you are the one with the 'rose colored glasses' constantly seeing the past in some strange light. When you go looking for 'problems' you will inveritably find them.
As gcurling stated, I can also make a long list of things I'd like improved at WDW as well, but the fact is, despite that list WDW is still the happiest place on Earth.

"... however there is NO EXCUSE for peeling paint, burnt out light bulbs, trash not being picked up promptly..."
I've been going to WDW since it opened (>400 days)and it has always been cleaner and that hasn't changed. In fact last Winter I had to run to get a drawing my daughter made at a kidcot stop that blew away before a cleaner got it. Note: Last fall they DID improve their Main Street light maintenance (after we all *****ed about it, here). And I do not expect Disney to scrape and paint everything every night, check every bulb every night, or flood the parks with garbage men.

"...45+ minute waits for buses"
Buses are the least magical (-magic) things at WDW, but the alternative, monorails, are prohibitively expensive. At least buses keep cars off the roads.

"..., cheap carnival type rides"
Like Dumbo, and Cinderella's Carrosel...
Actually, the recent trend of B-C attractions, are well overdue, after a long string of new parks featuring d-e type attractions (waterparks, MGM/DS, AK), Disney is finally getting around to adding a few 'kiddy' rides, that haven't been built since the Magic Kingdom opened.
As gcurling also stated, I'm sure my daughter will love them, as she did the new Aladdin ride.

"...and the general 'bad attitude' Disney seems to have lately. "
I don't know what this means, but CMs are friendlier and more helpful now then ever before.

"Before they even think of adding another E-Ticket ride they need to worry about getting the parks back to the quality levels that Disney used to be known for. "
Those rose colored glasses again...

"I can't make excuses for their recent films either. Epic or not, Pearl Harbor sucked. "
I heard nothing but good things about it, and I don't listen to critics, they are known for trying to make headlines for bashing a blockbuster.

"...uninspired thing I've seen in a long time"
Hogwash, I never seen a film create this much "inspiration" over a holiday.

"...I haven't seen Atlantis yet, but friends have and even though they were Disney fans, they were disappointed with it...and they loved Shrek. "
I loved Shrek, too, but Atlantis was many times better, the plot base (the mystery of Atlantis, verses an ogre love story), the characters (all of them in Atlantis verses an ogre and a donkey), the comedy, action and adventure of Atlantis verses the comic 'sampling' of fairy tale classics. And everyone I talked to loved it...was very impressed by it.

"And I'm sorry, but box office results DO determine when a movie is a classic/masterpiece."
No, they determine box office hits, luckily most c/ms do moderately well at the box office because they are so good. But just because a film 'only' makes 75 million, or doesn't make a profit (due to high production costs), doesn't make it a bomb or a failure

"they really haven't added anything over the past 10 years which impresses me"
If you aren't impressed by the research and detail (and results) that went into AK, or the amazing live shows at MGM, or the majestic resort hotels (WL, AKL) then you don't understand Disney at all. Even Reflections of Earth, and Tapestry of Nations is very impressive. Hell, Buzz Lightyear impressed Universal so much they built their own copy.
"...millions who agree" with you..."
Then add in all those that make the MK, Epcot, MGM and Ak 4 of the top 5 attended parks in the world. And all those who consider the water parks at WDW 2 of the best in the world...
Even if IOA is every bit at detailed, clean, themed, friendly and landscaped as WDW, it still doesn't mean WDW needs to then do better.

...before they replaced JII with JIYI, before they closed Horizons before they close 20K under the sea, before they closed the Skyway, before they replaced Mr. Toad with Pooh and generic pooh gift show, before they built 2-3 more Dumbo clones"
And don't forget the World of Motion...BUT they opened AK and turned MGM into a monster of a park with Hunchback, Ariel, ToT, R&RC and Fantasmic as well---all is much better (as is Pooh than Toad). And considering how hectic Fantasyland is, that beautiful lagoon is a breath of fresh air (although I'd rather have a new submarine ride).

"..., before they put a big ugly blue hat at MGM"
??? Mickey's sorcerer hat ugly?
MK has the castle, Epcot has the geosphere, AK has the tree, MGM/DS finally has an icon. Sorry but the Chinese Theatre has NOTHING to do with Disney in any way, and the hat is no more out of place at MGM/DS than the Castle is at the end of Main Street USA.

"before they built a cheap carnival at AK"
Compared to MK when it opened that featured along with the handful of E-attractions: vehicle rides down Main Street, a walk-thru treehouse, and those other cheap carnival rides, Disney is only adding the minor attractions that they left out when AK opened.

"etc... hopefully you get the point. "
Yes, I hope you do.

"They would have been better doing nothing at all over the past 10 years vs. what they've wasted money on. "
Where have YOU been the last 10 years? WDW has done/created more in the last 10 years than the 20 before that. Now 10 years ago, WDW was pitiful...Epcot (and MK) was stagnant, MGM/DS had just opened, was a poorly landscaped half day park, which aside from Indiana Jones, had nothing to return for. There was no Downtown Disney only Typhoon Lagoon, and most of the Disney hotels that fill up today were unbuilt. All that was turned around in the last 10 years.
------
Walt was very involved in the development of WDW, and stood on the construction site as the MK was being built.
Celebration is as close to the Experimental Community of Tommorrow as WDW ever got...Epcot was nothing like Walt Disney described.
Sorry, "Splash" stood out in my mind because it was Ron Howard's (not MEs) 1st big hit. ME joined Disney the SAME YEAR Splash was released. Oliver (a good musical film in the typical Disney style, inspired by Oliver Twist), came out then later (my daughter enjoyed that), but the Little Mermaid came out in 1989 (over 4 years later)...since the normal development time for an animated film is 4 years and the long line of animated 'classics' (from Little Mermaid to Atlantis)started almost exactly 4 years after ME joined Disney and he hired most of the people 'responsible' for the films, I think he deserves the credit due.

[johare]

Well JeffH, everything you posted is only your opinion. I'm sure that some might share your views but there are also many who do not and you can count me among them.


How many people to you think share the view that...

"Atlantis is MANY times better than Shrek"

or regarding the lagoon left empty by 20K:

"considering how hectic Fantasyland is, that beautiful lagoon is a breath of fresh air "

or regarding the Big Blue Hat at MGM:

"the hat is no more out of place at MGM/DS than the Castle is at the end of Main Street USA"

or regarding adding carnival rides to AK:

"Disney is only adding the minor attractions that they left out when AK opened"

Rose colored glasses indeed...if your glasses were any rosier you'd have to worry about getting poked in the eye by the thorns.

[F.C. Fan]

Right on Johare

My fav was the comment about the Buzz Lightyear ride at Disney.
M.I.B. was on the drawing boards long before the quick retro-fit Dis did with Buzz.

Just like Spiderman, M.I.B. is a completely new from the ground up multi-million dollar attraction with incredible technology and theming(that's alot of fun to boot) that 1-ups Disney at their own game. Not a quick retro-fit of an old attraction.

Don't get me wrong Jeff H, I think it's awesome that you have such a great time with your family at Disney, but for us who don't have (and in my case don't want) kids.
It's nice to have places to go that cater to us as well as the children.

[johare]

Thanks F.C. Fan...I was going to mention the MIB thing too. Comparing MIB to Buzz is just as ridiculous as comparing the Hulk to Goofy's Barnstormer.

I've got two boys, 7 and 4 and even though we enjoy the parks at WDW, they both prefer to go to Universal and IOA. I think the difference for them is all the interactive playground type areas like Camp Jurassic, Jurassic Discovery Center, Me Ship the Olive, If I ran the Zoo Playground, Fievel's Playland and Curious George Goes to Town. I don't see anything that comes close to these play areas over at the Disney parks.

[space42]

Well, I am not sure if I would feel as negative as I do if it were not for a little theme park called Tokyo Disney Sea. We have a very interesting scenario happening right now. Disney will have had two new theme parks opened this year. Come September, it will be interesting to see how the public reacts to this new park in Tokyo. We already know how things are turning out for the one in CA. If you have not yet had the opportunity to check out this park, you can see the concept art and construction photos at http://www.tokyoresort.com Be sure to check out the concept art! WOW!!! What a park.

The thing that sticks out the most from the concept art/construction photos is the attention to detail! There are many great E-Ticket rides being built. Yet, no roller coasters or off the shelf amusement park rides with plywood cutout thememing. This park screams Disney quality! They even have a 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea attraction!! How about that!

I tell you what. I have heard a few people say that the only way that the Disney Company will hear our complaints is if we stop buying their products. Here is what I plan to do. I also plan to send a letter to Disney stating this.

I am a FL resident living about 2 – 3 hours away from WDW. I am also a seasonal pass holder. I usually go to WDW many times from fall to spring. This year, I am not going to renew my pass. I have long had a plan to visit CA and go to the Disneyland resort next year. Since I have been under whelmed with what I have seen from DCA and over whelmed with what I have seen from Tokyo Disney Sea. I plan to save the money I would have spent going to CA and renewing my pass. Plus with all of those hotel charges (I always stay on site at WDW). I figure the money I save will go a long way towards my trip to Tokyo! Hey, if we can dream it we can do it right? :-)

[johare]

...but if you go to Tokyo Disney instead of California Disney they will still get your money so why would they care?

[Baileymouse]

We've been going to Disney steadily since 1995. My son has gone from 10 to 16 in that time period. Here are our impressions:

1. Customer service was always wonderful (except for a really bad Planet Hollywood incident in 95) but now it's not quite as great. I think understaffing is becoming a problem. I was disappointed this past January when one of my guests (I brought a friends to Disney) experienced a sick stomach on Star Tours. We couldn't get a CM to help us out of the park, the parade was starting, and no one offered assistance. One young CM who was on her break did try to help us but couldn't get security or a supervisor to help. We had to walk the long way around and take the bus back to OKW (which is a nightmare). That subjected all of the lovely people on the bus to my poor friend's stench. This was also the first time I was given a hard time about passes when buying with the DVC discount, too. Some of the CM at the window had never heard of it.

2. Rides - some of the newer rides have been good, some have been a disaster. My son, for all of his age 15-16 bravado, still looks forward to almost everything. He doesn't identify with the Mouse but he always finds other things he loves. The entire family HATED the new Journey into Imagination ride. My son and husband like the Buzz Lightyear ride. Most teens don't seem to want to sit through the stage shows or parades. They're not appealing. Here's the kid's take on the parks:

Animal Kingdom - 1/2 day at most, not to be done on a short trip. Water ride is cool, dino ride is too much like UofE.

MGM - TOT is a must do, someone please change the ST story, the new Aerosmith Coaster is good but over way too fast, the Indiana Jones show needs to be redone. Another 1/2 day park but at least ToT you can do again and again!

EPCOT - Should have made Innoventions more like Disney Quest. Add more Already discussed the Imagination debacle. UofA is getting way too long in the tooth. Most of it is a been there, done that but he still enjoys ending the day in Spaceship Earth! It's sort of a good wind-down.

In the World Showcase, someone add more countries, please! Update the Mexico show. Always have to see Norway. He likes seeing the different countries - as a kid he had the passport, now that he's older he's very interested in learning about the people. He loves Morocco - could be the belly dancer in the restaurant, I don't know :cool: ...he doesn't like the latest advent of Illuminations. He likes fireworks and he really liked it a few years ago, but he thinks the update is pretentious.

MK - Best done on E-Ticket night, do all the E-Ticket open rides. Gotta go on Space Mountain and the Haunted Mansion. Splash Mountain, too. Coolest place for retro fun is New Tomorrowland but it could use more rides. The Buzz ride is the best kiddie ride they have now. It's not worth going when it's crowded because you can't get on the good stuff and there's too many little kids.

His other favorite things to do? Go to Downtown Disney to shop (every teen's dream) because there's merchandise other than Disney park trinkets, go to Disney Quest, eat at someplace fun, and enjoy the evening. He also loves to spend a day at both Typhoon Lagoon and Blizzard Beach. He's also noted that he thinks that Disney's 14 month marketing ploys - the 25th anniversary, the millennium celebration, etc. waste too much money on advertising and stupidity "like making the castle a big pink cake, get real" than putting in rides or attractions which can serve to commemmorate the event.

HOWEVER, in January he did go over to IofA with my Mother. I wasn't interested because we went to Universal 5 years ago and I thought it was awful. Poor service, mediocre rides, etc. Josh and Mom both said it's changed completely - IofA is wonderful! Josh loved the attractions and rides, and the 'tude. Mom said the service was definitely much better. She booked a room at the Portofino and loved every minute.

Mom lives near SFGA and never goes there. My son does and he likes the big rides but he doesn't compare it to Disney. I do think you'll see increases in regional parks this year (the Jersey Shore is having a banner year) and this is definitely due to the economy.

As for the movies - he didn't like Pearl Harbor, he grudgingly liked Atlantis - he was very interested in Atlantis because of the artwork - and he enjoyed Shrek. His friends made him see Shrek - he had no intention of seeing it but he came home saying "it's a non-Disney Disney movie! It's awesome!"

So that's our teen's view. Anyone in marketing listening? I'm going without him in September and I am looking forward to it but there's stuff I'll definitely skip.

Baileymouse

[YoHo]

To be quite honest with everyone, I'm over the testimonials about who likes what and how much. I trust that Disney knows what the global numbers are and will act if they aren't in line with expectations. (Note, I didn't say they'd act well)

The reason I'm fed up is that there are so many people that want so many different things from Disney. You know what, they have added a whole heck of a lot in the past 10-15 years.

Splash mountain is the number one attraction at Disney according to my Debate board poll with ToT in the top 5 as well. So don't give me this they haven't done anything in the past 10 years, because its wrong and ignorant, they've created two of their most loved rides in the last 10 years.

I'm also going to go with the Landbaron view on things like Aladdin. Its nice, bravo, it's not a free license to let other aspects of the park slip.

Some people want a thrill park, some people want more shows, some people want no shows. Personally, they got rid of all the live shows I enjoy (except Indy) but based on numbers, I'm in the minority.


Finally, just an aside about MIB and Buzz, I don't care which was built first and which is better, but MIB was one Summer blockbuster movie and a terrible kids cartoon show. Toy Story is a bonified Classic. In 20 years, which theme do you think people will remember better?

[DisDuck]

Does anyone know what demographics Disney is courting? There is all this talk about losing age groups, etc. Of my family of 6 (4 children) 4 out of 6 do not like most coasters (loops, spins, backwards, etc). Only my 20 yo daughter and 22 yo son like coasters and only my daughter would still go to Disney. My 22 yo prefers Cancun. My 20 yo went to both IOA and Disney last year and liked both but still prefers Disney.

Disney is designed for everyone; therefore, cannot please everyone. If you prefer thrills then Disney does not have enough. Yes, if you don't have children what is there in Disney to capture you, maybe very little. However, what captures me is that I can be a child again and not considered crazy (except by my children). In the hustle and bustle of thrill-town called IOA I do not get that feeling.

So rather be a child and go to Disney.

[hopemax]

My Dad and my theory is that in Disney's quest to expand, they saw an untapped market of people who tradionally like entertainment but don't spend their money with Disney. And tried to get a piece of that market with the feeling that "Disney people" would stay regardless of what Disney looked like, but because it was Disney.

Thus the new Disney Store design and merchandise selection that de-emphasized characters or using them in a more trendy manner.

Thus a theme park with less emphasis on characters, whimisical feel-good style attractions.

Thus a slate of animated movies without broadway style songs, princesses, cute sidekicks.

I think from the numbers, a lot of "Disney people" voted with their dollars and said it *does* matter what Disney looks like, and I don't know how many new people Disney attracted.

I think some people are never going to like Disney, if there is a mouse or the Disney name anywhere in sight, and a better strategy would be to use some of the other properties (ESPN, Touchtone, Miramax, ABC) to capture the audience that way. I don't think it's possible to find a one-size-fits-all product that will appeal to the "Disney people" and the people who never liked Disney before.

[F.C. Fan]

Yoho

I personally do not care for the M.I.B. cartoon show myself, but alot more kids watch it than Buzz Lightyear of Star Command.
I also can't stand the crappy animation of ALMOST all of Disney's TV and direct to home videos, compared to their beautiful movies, (and don't get me wrong I don't care for the M.I.B., Jumanji, etc. style of animation 1 bit either).

I would really love it if Disney and Pixar would do something computer animated for tv, like Max Steel, Action Man, or Starship Troopers, or perhaps something Toy Story related.

If M.I.B. was only a 1 summer movie then why would they make a sequel to it?

At least M.I.B. is based on stuff from the movie, in the Buzz attraction where's the Toy Story or Toy Story 2 references ,other than Buzz and Zurg????

[Another Voice]

I am not going to bicker here (but the part about Walt watching them build the Magic Kingdom was pretty good for a man who’d been dead for three years at that point). I’m firmly convinced that if Islands of Adventure and Animal Kingdom would have been built on opposite ends of I-4, many people here would be claiming that IOA was the greatest theme park in the world and that Universal’s Animal Kingdom was nothing but a half-day petting zoo.

Having been to all of the parks mentioned here (with the obvious exception of Tokyo DisneySea), Islands proves that Universal is capable of creating a park on par with Disney. Compared to California Adventure – vastly superior to Disney in almost all respects. And the public seems to agree since the first year attendance at California Adventure is now tracking to be much worse than the first year’s attendance at Islands. Brand loyalty may work for toothpaste, but it’s very hard to maintain for an entertainment company. People aren’t stupid and can see declining quality and value despite what Mr. Eisner believes.

One comment that really hit a nerve, though, was the “inspiration” generated by ‘Pearl Harbor’. No, it wasn’t. It was part of a cynical – and in my opinion, distasteful – marketing campaign for a hack-job of a movie. The film aspired to be nothing more than ‘Titanic’ with bigger explosions and it failed to live up to even that inane level. ‘Pearl’ is an example of sloppy, uncaring, low quality film making – and the public rightly rejected it. Thankfully, the movie was such an artistic, critical and financial failure that we were spared the planned 4th of July ad campaign.

[johare]

Quote of the day:

Disney is designed for everyone; therefore, cannot please everyone

[Sarangel]

...but if you go to Tokyo Disney instead of California Disney they will still get your money so why would they care?
Nope... Oriental Land Co gets most of it, Disney only gets a licensing fee of some sort. A deal that Disney kicks itself for daily, even though it made sense at the time.

Sarangel

[AFgirl325]

First of all, forgive me if this was already written but i couldn't take reading any more posts about how since teenagers hate Disney that is a factor in why Disney is taking a terrible turn.

I'm 14 years old and proudly say that I love Disney- the parks, the cruise line, the channel, its movies and everything else.

I have been to WDW 7 times in the past 8 years and will be going to DL/DCA for the first time next year. I can't wait. Plans for either a 4-days at land/3 days at sea or 7day cruise in 2003 are in the works. The idea of returning to Disney some many times was the idea of my brother (12 years old) and I- my parents just went along with it. It's us, the teenagers who want to return year after year.

I find it apalling that some of you think that all of us in the 'evil years' turn on Disney. Obviously, if Disney did have more thrill rides, it would even enhance the experience. But one of the great things I find about Disney is that it lets you be a kid again! I'm sure some of you may still consider 14 a kid, but believe me, my friends and I have had countless conversations about how we wish we could still be kids. By going to Disney, I am able to a be a kid again.

I know some of you may think that this is just my opinion- one of a nieve, young kid. But you could just look on the Teen Disney board here. I check it everyday and find new posts concerning disney and the excitement of upcoming trips. And it just so happens in my yearbook this year, the poll on favorite shows included the Disney Channel (May I add that MTV was not there?) Moreover, I can't tell you how many friends I have that are jealous that I go to Disney each year and how many friends I now have who are begging their parents to take them to Disney.

So maybe some of you will still think I'm in the minority of teenagers. That'd most of us would rather be at IOA. Sure that place is great, but I'd pick Disney over IOA anyday. And maybe you think we're immune to the loss of Disney magic- in the parks, in the movies, in the office of M. Eisner. But I don't care if the paint at the Haunted Mansion is chipped or it takes an extra 15 minutes to get into my room. I still want to go to Disney for the
experience.

So, in turn, I just hope this shows you that all of us in our 'evil years' do not necessarily dislike or have turned on Disney.

P.S. When I have children, there is no doubt in my mind my children will be taking annual trips to Disney.

[hopemax]

AFgirl,

Out of curiosity, what do your peers think of Disney? Not just your friends, but the other people in your classes that you don't hang out because you have different interests?

I too loved Disney when I was a teen, and my friends did too, but a lot of other teens in my classes thought Disney was stupid. They were too interested in keeping up with the hottest clothing styles and music groups, and the idea of doing something that their parents and younger siblings enjoyed would be a fate worse than death.

As much as I loved Disney, I would have to say I was in the minority in my age group.

[JeffH]

"Walt was very involved in the development of WDW, and stood on the construction site as the MK was being built. "
Sorry, I meant 'where the MK was to be built'. Walt was very involved in the land purchase and planning of WDW, which WAS the main point to begin with. Walt died 7 months before construction itself began...

" (Walt) Disney directed the purchase of 43 square miles of virgin land - twice the size of Manhattan Island - in the center of the state of Florida. Here, he master planned a whole new Disney World of entertainment, to include a new amusement theme park (MK), motel-hotel resort vacation center (Persian, Venetian, Asian, Poly and Contemporary), an industrial complex (Reedy Creek?), an airport of the future, and his Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow. After more than seven years of master planning and preparation, including 52 months of actual construction, Walt Disney World opened to the public as scheduled on October 1, 1971."

I'm not sure what those quotes from my post had to do with "Rose colored glasses". "Rose colored glasses" are worn by those who think the past was so rosy, which I thornfully showed wasn't.

[Laurajean1014]

Box office sales do not make a classic movie. Good scripts, actors and directors do.

If that was the case, then "It's a wonderful life", would never be in our vid cabinets today.

[Laurajean1014]

Teens like disney. I see alot of kids out with each other unsupervised. Which is great. The parents are allowing their kids to be kids. Disney offers that.

Who is Jumaji? Another bad movie from US? MIB was good, after the 4th time I saw it. Before that, I felt it pluck away at my brain cells.

As for MIB (the ride). They should have left it in the black..................Yuck.

Buzz Lightyear ride rocks! I see people go on it 3 to 4 times consecutively. Haven't yet seen someone do the MIB ride back to back!

Remember, there would be no US if it wasn't for WDW and DL!

[johare]

Remember, there would be no US if it wasn't for WDW and DL!

Really? You don't think anyone else would have come up with the idea for a well themed family amusement park if it wasn't for DL and WDW? I was surprised that you actually thought Buzz was better than MIB...until I read this comment.

[F.C. Fan]

Actually you couldn't be any more wrong about people not re-riding M.I.B. unless you're at the park with a large group of people, alot of people just get back in the single riders line and are back on and shooting within 10 mins or less.

Actually I was referring to Jumanji the animated show (not the movie) to compare it's animation style to Men in Black's( neither of which I personally care for.

I nor anyone else has ever said that Disney didn't revolutionize theme parks, but if you want to get technical about it. If it were not for the man who started and built Cypress Gardens( I think his last name was Pope) there would be no WDW where it now sits, since a good portion of the land was nothing more than a swamp, and thanks to him teaching, or lending his ideas, metheods, and equipment to Walt and Roy Disney to clear their newly aquired swamp land. He also helped the Disney brothers out in the horticulture growing and landscaping dept. with some of his metheods for the park as well.

You could go and on for years well this guy did this, and that guy did that, and this woman did this, and so on and so on. My point is that Disney is not the only game in town and that's good for everyone cause no matter which company's parks you like the competiton between them all gives us beter quality parks in the long run.

[YoHo]

Considering that Disneyland had been built for 15 years and was a horticultural dream, I wonder just how much the founder of Cypress gardens really helped. Oh not that he didn't help at all, but its not like Disney was ignorant in those areas.

[johare]

I wouldn't disagree with that entirely...Cypress Gardens probably had some good information on how things should be done in Central Florida, but I'm sure WDW could have been built without their help.

However, it's no more ridiculous to say that there would be no WDW without Cypress Gardens than it is to say that UF wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Disney. Universal could have built USF and IOA even if WDW never existed. Saying that we wouldn't have any decent theme parks without Disney is like saying that we wouldn't have operating systems for our computers without Microsoft.

[YoHo]

Uh, except that Walt Disney came up with the concept of the Theme park, so it is not rediculous.


The microsoft allusion is false, since no one group invented the Operating system.

One man invented the Theme park.

[F.C. Fan]

YoHo

Actually Cypress Gardens has been around since 1936 so that's a little before Mr. Disney's giant step into the attractions arena with DL.

California and Florida are a little different when it comes to weather.
As you know Florida is very tropical and that's part of the reason the Disney brothers met with the Cypress Gardens founder he'd been growing beautiful plants and flowers before they even got into the park business. Another reason they met with him was that he had already tackled and conquered how to turn a swamp into usable land for an attraction successfully. I'll admit that the CG accomplishment was no where near the scale of the task ahead of the Disney brothers, but had still been done first.

Also about the there wouldn't be any US if it weren't for Disney.
I might be wrong(and if I am then this thought will be inncorrect) but wasn't it US that stole Mr Disney's character Waldo the rabbit?
inwhich turn led him to draw and create the world's most recognizable mouse??? The 1 the only Mickey Mouse.
If my memory was correct(and that's a big IF) then without Mickey wouldn't it have been would have been a lot tougher sailing for Mr. Disney and most of his brilliant accomplishments.
Remember this all started with a mouse???

One more thing isn't the words theme park just a name thought more recently given to amusement parks. Growing up I never heard or referred to Disney, Sea World, and any other of the parks as theme parks. I can't exactly place the time when they started calling them that, but it definitely was more recent.

[hopemax]

I might be wrong(and if I am then this thought will be inncorrect) but wasn't it US that stole Mr Disney's character Waldo the rabbit?


Well, it was Oswald the Rabbit, not Waldo, but yes it was Charlie Mintz and Universal Pictures.

[F.C. Fan]

Thank you Hopemax
I was pretty close :D

[YoHo]

Yeah, and if a bunch of cranky Bostonians hadn't got fed up over a Tea Tax increase then there would be no USA and thus no Disney. I'm sure we can play this game forever. Universal also was the first to offer studio tours, decades before Disneyland was built, and it was Walt's thoughts about having a Studio tour by Steam engine that helped crystalize his plans for Disneyland, that don't mean Universal developed the Theme park. The point is, DIsney invented the Theme park. He didn't call it a Theme park no, but a theme park is not an Amusment park. Walt didn't call putting in rides based on his films Synergy Either, but that's what it is.

Riverview or Cooney Island or the Pier at Santa Cruz is an Amusment park. A theme Park is (loosely) an Amusment park where the attractions are grouped by common theme and decorated to support that theme.

The entire Concept is of doing that is pure Walt Disney.

[larworth]

Yoho

Technically your right about the 10 years comment. I totally agree that Spash (92) and TOT (94) are all-time classics. Let's throw Indy into the mix (95) while we are at it. Some of the gems of AK must have been greenlighted in this timeframe as well. It just goes to show that great things can happen under an Eisner watch.

However, around this time (IMHO) they started to reduce the amount of extravagance (if I can borrow a term from another thread) they were willing to put into their product. They cut the highly extravagant BK, while going with the less extravagant Kali. Some very fun rides have been added to WDW since, but none comes close to these standards of extravagance. I think we can say the same thing about a good portion of DCA. So 10 years would be a stretch, but it sure has been more than 5. I guess we just got spoiled.

AV

I agree with your IOA comment. If this was a Disney gate and had the advantage of Disney charaters and storylines for their show, people would be pointing to this as an example of what great things Disney can still produce.

Others

We can all have our opinions on whether Buzz or MIB is more fun to ride, and after all, what we enjoy is really what counts most. But from an attraction design standpoint they aren't even close. It's like trying to compare DudleyD. to Splash Mountain. Spash Mountain is cleary a quantum leap above DD. I enjoy both Buzz and MIB, but in terms of the quality of the design effort, MIB is lightyear's ahead of Buzz.

[YoHo]

larworth, I don't personally think its been much more then 5, At most its been the 8 or so years since Wells died. Our first real signs were JIYI and the Incomplete AK. Or, with AK, I'd more suggest the Still incomplete AK, since I unlike some would be more then willing to forgive them opening the place without Beastly Kingdom if they had actually bother to try to get it in in a timely manner.

Kali River Rapids is one of those Annoying Eisner Enigma's so much of the Themeing of the queue areas and such is beyond beautiful, but the ride is just too short. its like they thought, hey maybe if we put enough extravagance in before the ride, they won't notice the terrible ride.

[johare]

Just because Walt created the first park which would be considered a true 'theme park' doesn't mean that we wouldn't have theme parks today if it wasn't for him.

If Thomas Edison didn't come up with the first light bulb would we all be reading by candle light?

If Alexander Graham Bell didn't invent the telephone would we still all be using the pony express?

If Henry Ford didn't come up with the automobile would be all be riding horses?

No...and if Walt Disney didn't come up with the first 'theme park' I'm quite certain that someone else would have.

[YoHo]

But that's not what happened (Ford did not invent the Automobile by the way)
Disney DId invent the Theme Park.


Look, Do you doubt that the only reason Universal studio's Florida and IOA exist as they do today is because Walt built Disneyland and Disney has been raking it in ever since?

The time and the mind was right Disneyland. Walt had the Ambition, The IP, and the want to educate. I suppose its like a thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters. Sure, someone else could have dreamt it up, but Walt Dreamt it up and made serious change on it.

Like I said above, Ford Didn't invent the Car, but he did make use of the Assemply line to get Rich off of it.

Not only that, but Orlando was a one gator swamp before Disney drove in. Some may lament the passing of the more Floridian vacations of the past, but the fact remains that Universal would have had no reason to build in Florida if it weren't for Disney. PLUS, Walt's plans for the florida property were far different from what we actualy got. If E.P.C.O.T. had been built as planned, would Universal have built there?


So there you have it, there are what 3 or 4 things that had to happen for Universal to build a Theme Park in Florida. The odds of them Happening without Disney are pretty slim. Not that they wouldn't all have happened, but that they would all have happened at the same place and time.

[johare]

I'm not saying USF and IOA would exist exactly as they do today in the exact same spot if it wasn't for Disney.

I AM saying that we would have theme parks today whether or not Walt had created the first one.

[All Aboard]

Boy, this thread has taken so many twists and turns... Since there was alot of talk of how IOA is beating the pants off WDW, I thought I might have to give the place a good look this weekend. Been to USF several times, though. So I started to do a little research to see how good a theme park it would be for my daughter. You see, there are only 3 attractions in all of WDW (out of over 110) that she is not permitted to enjoy - Space M, Alien Enc & RnR. Well, turns out that there are 12 rides at IOA, and guess what, she's not permitted on 7 of them, and several of them are quite a few years out of reach. Guess we'll have to wait to see IOA. Who said it wasn't a thrill park?

[F.C. Fan]

YoHo

I don't doubt that a bit, but you need to recognize the fact that there would be no Disney as we know it in Florida or any other part of our lives as well, if not for Universal's actions. Without Mickey Mouse there wouldn't be any of it at all, Mr Disney even said it himself.

Universal's actions changed Disney as we now know it forever, as well as what was in store for themselves down the road, and that is a fact plain and simple. Without those actions that occurred all those years ago you wouldn't have the parks you like, and I wouldn't have the parks that I like, plus all the other great multi-media stuff that both companies have to offer.

[YoHo]

F.C. Fan, I understand that,


The thing we are currently discussing is a chicken and egg type thing. There would be nothing without the mouse and Universal certainly drove Walt to create his own studio, but the Idea behind the theme park was truely all in Walt's head. It may be true that someone else would have come up with it, but not as early as Walt did. There was literally nobody else at the time working on a project remotley like Disneyland. I think its nieve to suggest that if there had been no Walt, it would have simply sprung up as if by magic.


It simply isn't true.

In short, this all started with the comment

However, it's no more ridiculous to say that there would be no WDW without Cypress Gardens than it is to say that UF wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Disney


Universal florida (which kind of needs to exist in florida doesn't it?)

Would not exist in the way we know it were it not for Walt Disney, Plain and simple.

All of which came out of the MiB vs. Buzz argument which is a microcosm for UE is better then WDW which while it is a debatable position is by no means a proven one.


You know, I've really forgotten what the hell the point of all this was. MK will probably still out draw IOA on a park to park basis this year, so Universal doesn't have that crown yet. they're just a scrappy little upstart.

[F.C. Fan]

Yoho

You don't understand.

If he were just an animator for Universal(animating OSWALD) do you really believe there would have been a DL or WDW or anything else associated with Disney?? If he already had the idea for a park then why didn't he just set off to make a park??? Why waste time making movies??? DL would have been built in the 30's or 40's instead of the 50's.

It wasn't until he had success, fame, independence, and most importantly, money, that he started thinking about things other than the movies which had got him to that point(which was all started by a mouse).There wouldn't have been any park ideas in his head.

Once again I will say "NO Mickey NO" parks or anything else Disney oriented, because he would not have had the means to do so under Universal's employment.

[johare]

gcurling...

And how tall is your daugter?

I noticed how you conviently counted only rides at IOA, yet counted the ATTRACTIONS at all 4 of the WDW parks...and probably included the water parks to to arrive at that 110 figure.

From your post I'm guessing your daugther is in the 40" height range since the only 7 attractions at IOA which require you to be taller than 40" are Fire Dragon, Ice Dragon, Hulk, Dr. Doom's Fearfall, Popeye, Dudley Doright and Jurassic Park River Adventure and I know of 3 (like you said) at WDW that require over 40"...Rock and Roller Coaster, Alien Encounter and Space Mountain.

I count at least 10 major attractions at IOA that she can still enjoy (not only 5)... Spiderman, Pterandodon Flyers, Storm Force, Flying Unicorn, Caro-Suess-El, One Fish Two Fish, Cat in the Hat, Posiedon's Fury, 8th Voyage of Sinbad, Tricapterops Encounter. There are also several interactive play areas (somthing Disney lacks) that she can enjoy such as Me Ship the Olive, Camp Jurassic, If I ran the Zoo and the Jurassic Park Discovery Center.

Sounds like you are trying to spin the numbers to make WDW look better and IOA look worse here...

[All Aboard]

Here is the error of my ways:

1. I assumed Poseidon's Fury had a 42" height requirement. (I read it on this site, sorry Pete.)

2. I was counting rides for IOA, so Triceratops and Sinbad were not counted.

3. I missed Stormforce altogether

4. I counted the Dragons as one attraction.

So, there are 8 rides that she is tall enough for at IOA. Plus the Sinbad show, Triceratops + the play areas. Still, she is procluded from a large percentage of total attractions.

Is Spiderman ok for a 3.5 year old? I'm seriously asking this question, I am actually still considering going this weekend.

[johare]

Spiderman might be ok for a 3.5 year old. My 4 year old has been on it a couple times but lately he seems afraid to go on again. Does she go on rides like Star Tours and Dinosaur? If so Spiderman shouldn't be problem.

As for the attractions...she can't go on about 5 of the 20 attractions I count at IOA. That shouldn't stop her at all from enjoying the place...especially the play areas like Camp Jurassic and If I ran the Zoo. Lunch at Circus McGurkus is also fun with small kids especially if you go when characters are there.

As for Disney, I count at most 71 attractions across the 4 parks...30 at MK, 18 for Epcot, 16 for the Studios and 8 for AK. Where did you come up with an extra 39 attractions?

[cindyfan]

Just looking at the rides at IOA vs the rides or "attractions" at WDW. For my time and money.......I know there is no way that we would get our money's worth at IOA with my 10 year old. She loves "attractions", things that have stories within them, etc.. she is not the "thrill seeker" that it appears you have to be to ride most of the rides at IOA. She is deathly afraid of Dinosaur!!! went on it once, never again!!!! I just would never even attempt to get her on Jurassic, Storm Force or any of those.
So......I just don't see the fun in spending the whole day with Dr Seuss, as much as I love Cat in the Hat, it just isn't worth it.

[F.C. Fan]

gcurling

Poseidon's Fury is a walk through show there's no height restrictions or requirements.

cindyfan

There's a little more in IoA that your daughter might enjoy as Johare has stated in earlier posts. If she can ride Kali at AK then she can ride Popeye and Bluto's Bilge Rat Barges, also if she can handle the Tea Cups at MK then she can handle Storm Force Acceltron, and finally if she can handle Goofy's Barnstorming at MK then she can handle The Flying Unicorn. Over in Lost Continent
there's The 8th Voyage of Sinbad show, The Mystic Fountain Very entertaing for all ages), and Poseidon's Fury, which I mentioned earlier in this post. It does have some special effects which could be intense (depending on the child). Spiderman of course, but I don't know if your daughter is scared of the dinosaurs themselves or the ride motion at Dinosaur at AK, if she's just scared of the Dinosaurs in that ride, then she might like Spidey, however if she is scared of the ride itself at Ak, then Spidey might be too intense for her.

Just wanted to let you know there are a few other possibilities open to your family in the park than Suess Landing.

But ultimately IoA may be a better expierience for your family once your daughter is in her teens.

[DisDuck]

For all those who think IOA has a lot (or even more to offer) than WDW. My 16 yo daughter actually seems to fit into more like gcurling. She goes on Spiderman and the 3 water rides but that is it except for Suess Land. Also, cannot go on Pterodon as too tall and Tricerotops is A LAME JOKE.

So here is one teenager, granted in the minority, that prefers WDW to USF/IOA.

[F.C. Fan]

DisDuck

Nobody on this thread has said that IoA has more to offer than Disney. IoA, like Disney does have alot to offer people though , it just depends on your likes and dis-likes.

I'll be the first to admit that Triceratops is indeed lame to almost, if not everyone who goes to it.

But at the same time I'll be the first one to also admit Disney has it's own attractions that are long in the tooth and lame as well.

That's great thing about opinions everyone has a right to one :p

[YoHo]

If he were just an animator for Universal(animating OSWALD) do you really believe there would have been a DL or WDW or anything else associated with Disney??

Probably not, but what does that have to do with the question of whether Universal Escape would exist? Universal Escape would not exist were it not for DL and WDW. True, you can then play the six degrees game and go back to Universal causing Disney to create Mickey, but what does that prove in the context of this conversation? Are you insinuating that then Universal created Disnyland and DisneyWorld, because they swindled Walt? Like the Way the Joker Created Batman by killing his parents?

I'd like to take this moment to be offended on behalf of Walt Disney. Its like saying George Lucas came up with Star Wars, because Francis Ford Coppala Stole his Idea for Apocolypse Now! This isn't chaos theory here. Some people are just genious.




If he already had the idea for a park then why didn't he just set off to make a park???


The Idea to create Disneyland was based on numerous things going on in Walts life, among them.

The sad display of humanity apparent whenever he took his girls to the local amusment parks and travelling carnivals.

The Joy he felt when he let family members ride on his backyard model railroad.

The needs of the Disney company to stablize income in between movies (not helped by the flops that some of them were)


Now, it is correct that point three requires there be a Disney company and point 2 requires that Walt be rich enough to build the Carolwood and Pacific, but what about point 1?

Clearly Walt was a visionary. I have ideas about how to improve Disney World all the time, vast, intricate and complex ideas. Now, The reason I have these Ideas about Disney is because Disney exists, but are you suggesting that I wouldn't come up with some of the same notions with alternate stimulus?



Its just a matter of where you want to draw the line historically. In my mind, events that happened before 1955 are not direct enough to effect the conversation. And more importantly, unless you can explain to me how if Universal hadn't Swindled Walt, then they would have come up with UE on there own, you can't draw any valuable conclusions from those facts.

[johare]

I have ideas about how to improve Disney World all the time, vast, intricate and complex ideas. Now, The reason I have these Ideas about Disney is because Disney exists, but are you suggesting that I wouldn't come up with some of the same notions with alternate stimulus?

Are you suggesting that Universal wouldn not have come up with some of the same notions and ideas without Disney?

[YoHo]

I'm suggesting Walt Disney was an extremely talented and Unique Man and that it took his kind of unique genious to create and market the Theme Park.

Universal is a corporation, and No, I don't think Universal could have thought this one up as a corporation, it was too outside the box.


A different individul With resources similar to Walt's may have come up with and made good on the Idea. A corporation would not have.

[F.C. Fan]

YoHo

It doesn't matter if YOU stop at 1955, and turn your head to the events that had taken place before then.

Myself and Johare already admitted US as we know it wouldn't be the same way it is now if not for Disney.

But for you to think the Disney company as we know it, would even exist, (if not for Universal's actions) is a JOKE!!!!
If the Joker and Batman scenario floats your boat for an example, then that's fine by me.

BTW Universal dropped the Universal Studios Escape name and campaign awhile ago. It's the same thing as still referring to the MK as WDW.

I couldn't care less if you are offended. The fact is if he hadn't been swindled out of his character, he wouldn't have had any reason to draw the mouse character that went on to become Mickey, therefore no Disney company as we know it.

It doesn't matter if Mr. Disney did have park ideas in his head or not, without the success of Mickey Mouse he could not have turned those ideas into what we have now and that's a simple fact. If the man admitted that himself it doesn't matter what you think or feel about it.

So while it was a crappy thing Universal did to Mr. Disney, in the end it turned out good for everyone.

[YoHo]

F.C. Fan, I understand what your saying, I just don't see how it was relevent to the discussion we were having. (I was kind of aware that UE was no longer used, it just seemed like a convienent term to use when refering to the Florida parks exclusive of the rest of the company. I suppose I should include Universal City California, but the Theme Park there is a joke.)

Ultimatly, the question was one of whether Universal's Parks would exist in a way similar to the way they do now, were it not for Disney, you yourself admit that they would not. That is the end of the discussion.

The catalyst that lead Walt to create Mickey DOESN'T MATTER IN ANY WAY TO THIS DISCUSSION

I don't care if he found the Disney Company in a Box of Cracker Jack. I don't care if it came to him in a vision, I don't care that in reality, Universal's poor handling of Walt's character started it, none of that is in the least bit relevent to the subject of Whether there would be a Universal Studios/IOA in Florida were Disneyland/world not to exist.

[JeffJewell]

...if I could get in the last post before this little party gets locked up.

Jeff

PS - Anyone ever see the movie Bachelor Party? "Gone only a few seconds, and I miss him already!"

[DVC-Landbaron]

... And look what happens.

But I wrote this out before this namecalling started and it was meant in fun, so... The hell with it, I'll put it out anyway!!!




I couldn't care less if you are offended. The fact is if he hadn't been swindled out of his character, he wouldn't have had any reason to draw the mouse character that went on to become Mickey, therefore no Disney company as we know it.

It doesn't matter if Mr. Disney did have park ideas in his head or not, without the success of Mickey Mouse he could not have turned those ideas into what we have now and that's a simple fact. If the man admitted that himself it doesn't matter what you think or feel about it.

So while it was a crappy thing Universal did to Mr. Disney, in the end it turned out good for everyone.

Not necessarily!

Since you guys seem intent to bend the space-time continuum or visiting an alternative universe, let me join in for a Sci-Fi drive-in kind of thing.

Picture, if you will, a universe with no Mickey Mouse. Why? Because Universal never rob Walt of the concept. And instead of a mouse becoming the beloved symbol of everything good and nice and American, there is a rabbit!! A rabbit that shot to popularity quicker than a rodent could ever hope! So much so that Walt, the creator of the rabbit, was able to fund Snow White much earlier than in our reality. And as such decided to build Disneyland in 1938. Hitler, hearing about it came for a visit. Was so impressed that he gave Czechoslovakia back and never invaded Poland. Walt, still the dreamer, bought up HUGE amounts of real estate in Florida to build EPCOT. WDW and the city was built. Complete with a dome!!! Walt also, because of his great early success, gave up smoking in 1945. He lived until 1992. And because of the ‘altered’ reality, the Ei$ner caste system was never implemented, the magic never started to dry up and prices are still VERY reasonable. (DCA was never even considered!!)


See how silly this is?


Ps: A foot note to our story. In 1982 Walt met a newly married, aggressive man from Chicago. Walt took a liking to him because he was one of the only people in the entire world who truly understood the magic and more importantly, the SHOW!! In 1990, when Walt semi retired, he passed the baton to this man, who to this day is running things “as Walt would". And they all lived happily ever after. Except Walt who really was frozen!!!! ;)




OK!! Lock it up!!!!!!!

[Captain Crook]

I haven't participated yet!

LISTEN TO ME CAREFULLY...No, never mind...
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[donald@home]

I just had to say, before this thread is locked, that I can't believe how STUPID this thread has become!

PS - I agree with Yoho.

OK now you can lock it! Please.

[johare]

Hello? Hey, looks like we're still here. Maybe this will be the last post? :D

Anyway, my final comment on this is...

I think Walt would have gone on to do great things with or without a Mouse character. Disneyland may have been a little different and had a different mascot, but I think Walt's dreams would have led him in about the same direction.

That said...if there had never been a Walt Disney, I think someone else would have come up with the concept of a theme park. Wouldn't have been Disneyland and might night have had the mouse or separate 'lands' right away, but we would still have wound up with heavily themed parks somewhere.

Universal may or may not have been the company to come up with the theme park idea had there not been a Walt Disney, however they would have still created some decent theme parks...they would have just been losely based on something else.

Well, that doesn't make much sense. Lets see if we have time for any other posts!

:p

[JustBob]

...and they all lived happily ever after.;)

[YoHo]

I guess this is still open...


Wow, I know I can be pig headed, but I can't ever recall being the soul reason somebody left a UBB style bulliten board before. (and I've been on more then my boss should know about.) I'm also curious who it is that disagrees so with me that I would be mentioned specifically (I vasilate so much, sometimes I think I'm on everybody's side.)


I have a lot of unanswered questions here, but I don't think its worth it to even bring them up.

In short, F.C. Fan, I'm sorry if I've offended, I really think we had a misunderstanding somewhere deeper then the question of Oswald the rabbit. I really hope you'll reconsider leaving this board.



I'd also like to apologize to the moderators and admins.

Sorry
YoHo

[cindyfan]

to see this thread is still open!! The name calling did get out of hand! Shame on you. :(
anyway,....our family recognizies Disney and Disney characters and we relate to them.
My 10 yr old doesn't even know who Popeye is, so she is not going to get excited to go on a ride that is based on him! The only thing she does recognize is Dr Seuss, and Nickolodeon. But she is getting a little old for Cat in the Hat. And she gets her fill of Nick every day on TV. She has never asked to go to US or IOA, even though she sees numerous commercials every week. And she has friends that have told her what it is like.
But, she DOES ask to return to WDW..........every week!!!! She continuously asks to return. And it is always....."Can we stay longer this time???"
The reason she loves AK and Kali RR is that she loves animals and wants to some day visit Africa......so.....Disney has created the next best thing!!!! :) Therefore the MAGIC!!!! :)
She loves MK because of all the books we read to her as a small child. Her fantasies are realized.
She LOVES Splash Mountain, not because of the big hill when you can get all wet. But because of all the music and characters!!! the THEME!
If WDW never added another "Thrill" ride, it wouldn't make any difference to us. We don't go to WDW to be frightened out of our minds or make our stomachs turn upside down.
We go for the MAGIC, the magic of dreams being realized and the feeling of being a carefree child again able to relive our fantasies!!! :)

We will go to US or IOA some day......just to see what it is all about. And I am sure we will enjoy it! :)
But I still say........Nothing will ever compare to WDW :)...........IMHO!