January Boycott of Disney underway.....

[MasterGracy]

F.Y.I. - this is a copy of the letter sent to Michael Eisner from the Haunted Mansion Fan Club.


The Walt Disney Company
500 South Buena Vista Street
Burbank California 91521

To Mr. Michael Eisner and the Walt Disney Executive Staff:

AN IMPORTANT OPEN LETTER CONCERNING THE CURRENT WORLD WIDE JANUARY BOYCOTT OF THE DISNEY COMPANY

In cooperation with Disney Fan sites across the world wide web and consumers around the world, The Haunted Mansion Fan Club will be shut down from January 1st to February 1st 2004 in protest against Michael Eisner's gross mismanagement of the Walt Disney Company resulting in the resignation of Walt Disney's nephew, Mr. Roy Disney, and multitudes of superior Imagineers; and we seek nothing less than Mr. Eisner's own immediate resignation and the reinstatement of Mr. Disney and his fellow Imagineers.

We encourage Disney fans everywhere to join us in showing Mr. Eisner our dissatisfaction with his erosion of Uncle Walt's dream by refusing to visit Disney parks, purchasing Disney merchandise, or patronizing a Disney theater film for the month of January.

We would also encourage Disney fans to write to Mr. Eisner demanding his resignation from the PUBLICLY TRADED Disney company.

The list of accusations leveled against Mr. Eisner by family groups, children advocates, safety officials, the press, consumers, stock holders, and Disney cast members is voluminous and can no longer be ignored or tolerated. Don't stand by as this man leads to ruin the dreams and memories of untold millions of people. Help take back OUR magical kingdom and restore what Walt created and gave to us. Enough is enough.


- George Gracy, president
Haunted Mansion Fan Club

[Tiggeroo]

I'm not familiar with this club. What are their membership numbers?
Count me among those who have had serious concerns about Eisner for a long time. If I could see some sort of concerted effort at a boycott, that has the potential for the kind of numbers to make an effect, I would participate. There will have to be some serious numbers in order to even get the attention of persons in power.
I hope it happens. Unfortunately, I believe that if the executives at Disney don't pay attention to the rumbles of discontent, and don't consider what Roy has to say important, they are going to go to the point where repair will be very difficult.

[Chuck S]

Originally posted by MasterGracy

The list of accusations leveled against Mr. Eisner by family groups, children advocates, safety officials, the press, consumers, stock holders, and Disney cast members is voluminous and can no longer be ignored or tolerated. Don't stand by as this man leads to ruin the dreams and memories of untold millions of people. Help take back OUR magical kingdom and restore what Walt created and gave to us. Enough is enough.



While I am no Eisner fan...Roy would have had to retire soon. anyway...so big whoop, there still would be no "Disney" at Disney

You mean religious based "family" groups and child advocates wanting to make political statements? The same groups with an anti-Gay Day agenda, even though the Disney Company does NOT sponsor any events. :rolleyes: And never mind some of their "demands" would be illegal.

Safety Officials - I realize that the recent tragedy at BTMR at DL was deemed a maintenance problem...but I didn't know the the State agency that investigated called for Eisner resignation.

The press, oh yes, any major company should do exactly what the "press" deems they should, no matter the costs involved...or even the legalities. If "the press" wanted to run Disney then ABC should have purchased Disney instead of vice-versa.

Consumers - Hmmm the WDW resorts are full.

Stock Holders - it seems the majority stock holders are NOT calling for his resignation, and the stock price has improved slightly.

"OUR" magic kingdom, sorry, but it the Magic Kingdom belong to the Walt Disney Company...it is NOT "OURS", we pay admission...even stockholders pay admission.

[mus muris asinus]

I'm sure you've got Mr. Eisner shaking in his boots now :rolleyes:

[mudnuri]

exactly what are we suppose to be debating????

[HauntedMansionFan]

Yay! I'm all for it! Less lines when I leave in 3 weeks.

[Lanshark]

How busy is Jan 1 to Feb 1? I would think this is a pretty slow time. If they were serious they would call for a year round boycott or until the changes they are seeking are made.

[DawnCt]

Personally, I came to that conclusion on my November 02 trip. After years of going to Disney with my family, I have seen a major erosion of customer service, increased prices with decreased hours, no major improvement in over all attractions, (Figment comes to mind) and unnecessary crowding when attendance is down. Longer lines are tolerated when both sides of an attraction could be opened and the transportation system has made getting around longer and more unpleasant. Interestingly enough, my teens and 20ish DS's came to this conclusion spontaneously. We found Disneyland much more accommodating, clean and reminiscent of how WDW was 15 years ago. My brother and his wife and family have been tenacious Disney fans as well and were very disappointed in thier most recent October 03 trip. Fortunately they were able to get military discounts for admissions and hotels, and even then, the trip disappointed compared to many previous trips. They described customer service as almost non existant. They stayed at the Yacht Club and did not feel the welcoming ambiance that they had many times in the past. Roy Disney is echoing what a lot of disallusioned guests have noted for a while.

[KNWVIKING]

But I think I'll save my boycotts for more important issue. After all, when all is said and done on these boards, we're till only talking about Disney.

[DisFam95]

Agree!! Disney is a company..period. Their JOB is to make money for a service. In these very bad economc times during the last 2 years they have had to make big cutbacks (ie cutting out an hour an EPCOT (which is now back), closing some minor food establishments early) They have to make money if you want them to continue major projects like Mission:Space, Soarin' Over California, the new AK coaster, and many other major projects. Yes it's not as 'perfect' as it once was but neither is the rest of the world. They are expanding with more attractions and resorts to give you, the loyal Disney Fan, more choices. How do you expect them to make money when the travel industry had bottomed out??? Things WERE beginning to pick up (until this latest terror alerts and over 8 flight cancelations due to terror info). I hope people still start traveling more. We can't stay at home and be afraid.

Yes I agree Eisner has mande some very bad choices but anyone who is griping obviously knows NOTHING about business or economics!

Please stay home in Jan so I can enjoy it all to myself.

[DawnCt]

Originally posted by DisFam95

Yes I agree Eisner has mande some very bad choices but anyone who is griping obviously knows NOTHING about business or economics!

Please stay home in Jan so I can enjoy it all to myself.

I don't think that it was wise for Disney to make the cuts that they did, despite "difficult economic times". They suffered in terms of customer loyalty. When I spend my hard earned discretionary income on vacation, I don't want to hear that hours are being cut, restaurants are closed and services are being cut because income is down. The cruise industry didn't cut back, they cut prices, they filled their ships and the business now is more than "afloat". I found that is where we get the biggest bang for the buck. They have built newer and bigger ships, increased service and have cut prices so they are nothing but attractive.
The same is true of other destinations. We were able to get great hotel rates when Hawaii's economy was down. They didn't send the help home and close restaurants. They provided a service at an enticing price. Eisner has squandered enough money on his pay offs for people he couldn't get along with and have placed that burden on the theme park visitors. He should have allowed enough cushion to maintain the level of services that long terms guests were accustomed to. He didn't and he has lost some formerly loyal guests for quite a while.

[SCDizFan]

Someone didn't think this boycott through.

You aren't hurting Micheal Eisner.

You know who your boycott is hurting? The little guys. You are hurting the employees of Disney. Fewer people at the parks mean fewer jobs. Your are hurting the residents of Orlando. Less revenue taken in by the tourists mean less of a tax base for things like education and roads.

In an area still reeling from the devastation of tourism downturn since the attacks of September 11, 2001, your boycott isn't going to do anything but compound that problem.

Think about your family and what the breadwinner in your family does for a living. Tourism and hospitality are the main industries in Orlando. Tourism is the industry that supports hundreds of thousands. That has been hurt and you sir, a making the problem worse.

[Goofyposter]

Roy would have had to retire soon. anyway...

No....actually this IS a "big whoop".

Other directors of equal age were NOT mandated to step down.......ROY had the designation of 'MANGAGEMENT'....and by defination within the board policy....that SHOULD HAVE exempted him from stepping down due to his age.

IN FACT Esiner's GREED and BLOODLUST to RID the company of a member of the Disney family is what lead to Roy's removal!!!!!!!

[MasterGracy]

I'm sorry if some of you were under the impression that the Haunted Mansion Fan Club is the initiator of the boycott. To the contrary, we are just one among many. Boycott organizers also include Disney cast members and their fan clubs. I believe one of the posters on this board said that such a boycott would hurt employees. Actually, the employees are already hurting, which is why they called for the boycott. Another poster attempted to refute my statement that Disney is OUR company. It IS OUR company, and I say so being a stock holder myself. But to the point, the original post on this board about the boycott was for your information about things taking place in the world of Disney. If you are not interested in the topic or disagree with the boycott, I'm not here to fight with you. I'm just here to spread the word.

For those of you who have not yet seen Mr. Roy Disney's resignation, I reprint it here so that you can see the extent of Mr. Eisner damage to the Disney Company. I encourage you to also visit Mr. Disney's own web site - www.SaveDisney.com - for more information about the imminent downfall of the entire Disney franchise. Those who care are participating in the boycott. Those who do not care are of no consequence.

"Dear Michael [Eisner]:

It is with deep sadness and regret that I send you this letter of resignation from the Walt Disney Company, both as Chairman of the Feature Animation Division and as Vice Chairman of the Board of Directors.

You well know that you and I have had serious differences of opinion about the direction and style of management in the Company in recent years. For whatever reason, you have driven a wedge between me and those I work with even to the extent of requiring some of my associates to report my conversations and activities back to you. I find this intolerable.

Finally, you discussed with the Nominating Committee of the Board of Directors its decision to leave my name off the slate of directors to be elected in the coming year, effectively muzzling my voice on the board -- much as you did with Andrea Van de Kamp last year.

Michael, I believe your conduct has resulted from my clear and unambiguous statements to you and to the Board of Directors that after 19 years at the helm you are no longer the best person to run the Walt Disney Company. You had a very successful first 10-plus years at the company in partnership with Frank Wells, for which I salute you. But, since Frank's untimely death in 1994, the Company has lost its focus, its creative energy, and its heritage.

As I have said, and as Stanley Gold has documented in letters to you and other members of the Board, this Company, under your leadership has failed during the last seven years in many ways:

1. The failure to bring back ABC Prime Time from the ratings abyss it has been in for years and your inability to program successfully the ABC Family Channel. Both of these failures have had, and I believe will continue to have, significant adverse impact on shareholder value.

2. Your consistent micro-management of everyone around you with the resulting loss of morale throughout the Company.

3. The timidity of your investments in our theme park business. At Disney's California Adventure, Paris and now in Hong Kong, you have tried to build parks "on the cheap" and they show it and the attendance figures reflect it.

4. The perception by all of our stakeholders -- consumers, investors, employees, distributors and suppliers -- that the company is rapacious, soul-less, and always looking for the "quick buck" rather than long-term value which is leading to a loss of public trust.

5. The creative brain drain of the last several years, which is real and continuing, and damages our Company with the loss of every talented employee.

6. Your failure to establish and build constructive relationships with creative partners, especially Pixar, Miramax, and the cable companies distributing our products.

7. Your consistent refusal to establish a clear succession plan.

In conclusion, Michael, it is my sincere belief that it is you who should be leaving and not me. Accordingly, I once again call for your resignation or retirement. The Walt Disney Company deserves fresh, energetic leadership at this challenging time in its history just as it did in 1984 when I headed a restructuring which resulted in your recruitment to the Company.

I have and will always have an enormous allegiance and respect for this Company, founded by my uncle, Walt, and father, Roy, and to our faithful employees and loyal stockholders. I don't know if you and other directors can comprehend how painful it is for me and the extended Disney family to arrive at this decision.

In accordance with Item 6 of Form S-K and Item 7 of Schedule 14A, I request that you disclose this letter and that you file a copy of this letter as an exhibit to a Company Form 8-K.

With sincere regret,

(signed by Roy E. Disney)"

[myhandd]

I went to Master's website, about 3/4 of the posts on it are his. I'm guessing there are 10 members of this boycotting group, and over half are his family.....This oughta get Eisners's attention lol!!!

[MasterGracy]

I'm sorry you were under the impression that the Haunted Mansion Fan Club is the initiator of the boycott. To the contrary, we are just one among many. Boycott organizers also include Disney cast members and their fan clubs.

One of the posters on another board said that such a boycott would hurt employees. Actually, the employees are already hurting, which is why they called for the boycott. Another poster attempted to refute the statement that Disney is OUR company. It IS OUR company, and I say so being a share holder myself. But to the point, the original post on this board about the boycott was for your information about things taking place in the world of Disney. If you are not interested in the topic or disagree with the boycott, I'm not here to fight with you are deal with your rude attitude. I'm just here to spread the word.

For those who have not yet seen Mr. Roy Disney's resignation, I reprint it here so that you can see the extent of Mr. Eisner's damage to the Disney Company. I encourage you to also visit Mr. Disney's own web site - www.SaveDisney.com - for more information about the imminent downfall of the entire Disney franchise. Those who care are participating in the boycott. Those who do not care are of no consequence.

"Dear Michael [Eisner]:

It is with deep sadness and regret that I send you this letter of resignation from the Walt Disney Company, both as Chairman of the Feature Animation Division and as Vice Chairman of the Board of Directors.

You well know that you and I have had serious differences of opinion about the direction and style of management in the Company in recent years. For whatever reason, you have driven a wedge between me and those I work with even to the extent of requiring some of my associates to report my conversations and activities back to you. I find this intolerable.

Finally, you discussed with the Nominating Committee of the Board of Directors its decision to leave my name off the slate of directors to be elected in the coming year, effectively muzzling my voice on the board -- much as you did with Andrea Van de Kamp last year.

Michael, I believe your conduct has resulted from my clear and unambiguous statements to you and to the Board of Directors that after 19 years at the helm you are no longer the best person to run the Walt Disney Company. You had a very successful first 10-plus years at the company in partnership with Frank Wells, for which I salute you. But, since Frank's untimely death in 1994, the Company has lost its focus, its creative energy, and its heritage.

As I have said, and as Stanley Gold has documented in letters to you and other members of the Board, this Company, under your leadership has failed during the last seven years in many ways:

1. The failure to bring back ABC Prime Time from the ratings abyss it has been in for years and your inability to program successfully the ABC Family Channel. Both of these failures have had, and I believe will continue to have, significant adverse impact on shareholder value.

2. Your consistent micro-management of everyone around you with the resulting loss of morale throughout the Company.

3. The timidity of your investments in our theme park business. At Disney's California Adventure, Paris and now in Hong Kong, you have tried to build parks "on the cheap" and they show it and the attendance figures reflect it.

4. The perception by all of our stakeholders -- consumers, investors, employees, distributors and suppliers -- that the company is rapacious, soul-less, and always looking for the "quick buck" rather than long-term value which is leading to a loss of public trust.

5. The creative brain drain of the last several years, which is real and continuing, and damages our Company with the loss of every talented employee.

6. Your failure to establish and build constructive relationships with creative partners, especially Pixar, Miramax, and the cable companies distributing our products.

7. Your consistent refusal to establish a clear succession plan.

In conclusion, Michael, it is my sincere belief that it is you who should be leaving and not me. Accordingly, I once again call for your resignation or retirement. The Walt Disney Company deserves fresh, energetic leadership at this challenging time in its history just as it did in 1984 when I headed a restructuring which resulted in your recruitment to the Company.

I have and will always have an enormous allegiance and respect for this Company, founded by my uncle, Walt, and father, Roy, and to our faithful employees and loyal stockholders. I don't know if you and other directors can comprehend how painful it is for me and the extended Disney family to arrive at this decision.

In accordance with Item 6 of Form S-K and Item 7 of Schedule 14A, I request that you disclose this letter and that you file a copy of this letter as an exhibit to a Company Form 8-K.

With sincere regret,

(signed by Roy E. Disney)"

[MasterGracy]

MYHANDD,

The Bulletin Board you visited is mainly for Haunted Mansion Fan Club managers to communicate quickly through the net with members and the site is only an introduction to the club. We mainly communicate through a newsletter. We are a fairly small group (that is, we do not have thousands of members), but that doesn't prohibit us from participating in the boycott and sharing the information with others. You seem to be a very bitter person who is easily agitated, so I do not take your insults personally. I hope you have a better day.

[SCDizFan]

I find it difficult to beleive that the employees this boycott will hurt the most are behind the boycott.

[MasterGracy]

I was under the false impression that this was a group of Disney fans who cared. I was therefore mistaken that this group would be interested in supporting the vast majority who want Eisner removed. That is the reason the informaion about the boycott was shared with you. Apparently this is, in actually, just another group of snobby know it alls in their own little clique. I'm sure Eisner thanks you.

[Mr D]

I am just one voice. one person and with MY free will have decided to boycott Disney in any way possible, coincidentally I leave in just a few hours for a 5200 mile trip from Alaska to Orlando.

I will NOT totally ignore recent changes at WDW like M:S and Philharmagic so at the very least Disney will see my money for admittance to two parks at the very least, a far cry from what I usually purchase which is the PAP.

And of course my 28 day in Orlando will be at a very nice private vacation rental home, much more value per my hard earned money.

I don't care if my effort has minimal or nil effect, but it gives me a feeling of participation in pursuing this, and hopefully one becomes two, two becomes four and others as well may publicly decry the urgent change of leadership needed.

Thats all folks, except for trip reports....of OTHER places than Disney

:mad:

[MasterGracy]

MR D,

Of course there is no need for you to give up a vacation you already had planned, and I applaude you for your sentiments. Every little bit helps.

[Chuck S]

Master Gracy,


Your original post was on the DEBATE BOARD it was moved here. Keep in mind that the early responses were also from the debate board. What type of responses did you expect?

[SCDizFan]

Master Gracy, I do care. However, a boycott of Disney hurts the hourly employees of Disney.

First and formost, the hourly employees get laid off. They lose hours. These people are single parents, heads of households, students paying their way through college, etc.

Whether or not I agree with Micheal Eisner isn't the point. To a degree, yes I think he has lost the Disney idea and turned it into corporate America. However, he has created thousands of jobs and made money for the stockholders.

Stockholders aren't faceless people. These people have retirement, college education funds, savings, and money invested in Disney. Mr. Eisner has to answer to the stockholders when Disney isn't paying out dividends.

Again, my point is that this boycott wasn't thought all the way through. The people that need their jobs the most are the ones it hurts first.

[Chuck S]

Absolutely right, SCDizFan,

When revenue drops, what is the first controllable cost that takes a hit? Hourly employees...it is this way in any business...next, park operations...park hours and ride hours/opening. Then long term capital investments...R & D.

A better way for stockholder to make their feelings known is through communication with the company.

[DawnCt]

Originally posted by SCDizFan
Master Gracy, I do care. However, a boycott of Disney hurts the hourly employees of Disney.

First and formost, the hourly employees get laid off. They lose hours. These people are single parents, heads of households, students paying their way through college, etc.

Whether or not I agree with Micheal Eisner isn't the point. To a degree, yes I think he has lost the Disney idea and turned it into corporate America. However, he has created thousands of jobs and made money for the stockholders.

Stockholders aren't faceless people. These people have retirement, college education funds, savings, and money invested in Disney. Mr. Eisner has to answer to the stockholders when Disney isn't paying out dividends.

Again, my point is that this boycott wasn't thought all the way through. The people that need their jobs the most are the ones it hurts first.

My personal boycott has to do with not getting a good value for my vacation dollar. Should it be the guests primarily responsibility to keep employees working when they feel that there are so many more excellent vacation values? Should guests continue to frequent Disney, spend money in the hotels and restaurants when the hours have been shortened and the prices have exceeded the rate of inflation? While there may be an organized boycott in progress, understand that there are plenty of former loyal guests that will find better ways to spend their money.

[Dznefreek]

The Haunted Mansion Fan Club will be shut down from January 1st to February 1st 2004 Maybe it's just me but shutting down your website does not hurt Disney in any way shape, or form.

I think the only thing it will accomplish is giving them a good laugh. I worked there p/t during the Southern Baptist Boycott and that did not have any affect on the parks at all.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by MasterGracy
I was under the false impression that this was a group of Disney fans who cared. I was therefore mistaken that this group would be interested in supporting the vast majority who want Eisner removed. That is the reason the informaion about the boycott was shared with you. Apparently this is, in actually, just another group of snobby know it alls in their own little clique. I'm sure Eisner thanks you. So tell me again why I would want to be on the side with someone that has an attitude as poor as yours when people disagree with you?

[ArcticWildMan]

Wow!!! More and more I'm convinced that this entire board is good for nothing more than belittling those that have a different opinion than you.

A lot of folks on this site are unhappy with the way Disney has been run by Eisner yet you belittle somebody for at least trying to do something about it.

I applaud Master Gracey for at least attempting to change things by boycotting Disney. It may just be a small act of defiance, but at least he's doing something (something a vast majority of us here can't exactly lay claim to). We like to complain and whine about the state of Disney but we expect everybody ELSE to do something about it.

[Mr D]

Well I just arrived in Orlando a few hours ago, good to see a fellow Wasilla person here on the Dis;) man the security was tight in Anchorage getting out last night, and it even delayed our takeoff by over an hour out of Seattle this morning. now my long journey is over for a long while (4 week at least) and its vacation from the cold and ice back home, and especially my boss at work feeling terrribly lost while I'm gone, he shut down the whole concrete batch plant until I return in feb!

Anyhow its a little cloudy but warm here, I have a sporty Chrysler Sebring rental car and just got back from Publix with about a weeks worth of TV dinners, tomorrow its off to see Spiderman!:)



And no Disney yet....

[MasterGracy]

MR D,
I'm very happy to hear that you arrived safely. I hope you're vacation is all that you hoped it would be. Have fun! :)




DZNE FREEK,
If you think it's "my" site alone that has shut down, maybe you should reread my original post - and be sure to put your glasses on this time, partner.


DAWN CT,
I like your attitude. If only there were more faithful fans like you...
You're the kind of person Disney needs to turn the company around.


ARTIC WILD MAN,
Thanks for your words of encouragement. It's good to see someone with their ears and eyes open, and a keen mind.


HAUNTED MANSION FAN,
I have a poor attitude? I'm sorry, you must be confusing me with the naysayers on this board who don't merely disagree but are vicious. I merely replied in their own language. Thought it might make them feel at home.


CHUCK S,
You're right, I did post on the "debate" board - not the "hack, slash and kill those you disagree with" board of Doombuggies.com


SC DIZ FAN,
You say "However, [Eisner] has created thousands of jobs and made money for the stockholders." Actually, Eisner has dropped the hiring standards, which largely contributes to the lack of quality customer care; and as for his making money for the stock holders (of which I am one), I quote Forbes Magazine's Best and Worse Bosses list for May 2003 -
"The worst on our list: Walt Disney's Michael Eisner, who averaged $122 Million in pay since 1997, while delivering a lame
-5% annual return to shareholders."

[Mr D]

Bravo Bravo!


I'm off with my son to Universal Studios today, gotta see Spiderman. And he is actually not interested in Disney at all! Especially when I say there is very little new stuff added since our last visit in 2001.

[anniet]

Sorry, the Disney trip was already planned just like it has been for the past 13 Januarys and this time it's a wedding trip, so no way we're going to cancel.

Not to mention that we are DVC owners, so they already have our money and knowing what the attendance is in JANUARY I think if somebody wanted to send a message they should have boycotted the week of Christmas or Easter or school vacation weeks.

I will however be sporting my new "ROY WAS RIGHT" T-shirt.

I just hope nobody throws me out of the parks!;)

[Dznefreek]

DZNE FREEK,If you think it's "my" site alone that has shut down, maybe you should reread my original post - and be sure to put your glasses on this time, partner. I get the idea that it is more than just your site. It is still an idea that will have NO IMPACT

[MasterGracy]

MR D,
Let me know if Universal still has the TWISTER attraction. That was my favorite.



ANNIET,
Love the shirt! There's another group (for the life of me I can't remember what the name of it is) which is selling t-shirts and other fundraising merchandise that say "MICHAEL EISNER: JUST SAY NO" on the front, and "SUPPORT ROY" with his picture on the back.


DZNE FREEK,
No one is twisting your arm to participate.

[ArcticWildMan]

Originally posted by Mr D
Well I just arrived in Orlando a few hours ago, good to see a fellow Wasilla person here on the Dis;) man the security was tight in Anchorage getting out last night, and it even delayed our takeoff by over an hour out of Seattle this morning. now my long journey is over for a long while (4 week at least) and its vacation from the cold and ice back home, and especially my boss at work feeling terrribly lost while I'm gone, he shut down the whole concrete batch plant until I return in feb!

Anyhow its a little cloudy but warm here, I have a sporty Chrysler Sebring rental car and just got back from Publix with about a weeks worth of TV dinners, tomorrow its off to see Spiderman!:)



And no Disney yet....


Howdy fellow Wasillite!! :D Looks like you left at the perfect time!!! Big cold snap moving in. Gonna hit -20 or colder by mid week. Brrrrr!!!!

I hear ya about the security. I had to fly down to Portland 4 days before X-mas for work. It was horrible at Anchorage and Seattle. Portland wasn't bad at all. Most efficient of all the airports I've been in since 9/11.

Enjoy the warmer weather and have a safe trip.

[Mr D]

You mean -20 in Wasilla itself? then my house up at mile 51 out behind Fishers Fuel is gonna be at least -30, we had a pretty warm partly cloudy day in Orlando.

I bought the 5 park Flex ticket at a Publix store and first stop was Sea World, now I know why folks say its a half day park...its pretty neat of a place but we didn't stick around and hopped over to Island of Adventure. I convinced my son that Dr. Doom was'nt scary (heh heh heh:p ) and we basically just cruised through it on a scouting mission. Spiderman is the best ride I have ever been on, it blows anything Disney has away big time! And the wait was only 20 minutes, actually IMHO the crowds were lite, weather was perfect (well sorta perfect) I really need to rethink my wardrobe, those insulated Red Wing boots get pretty clammy and my double knee black Carharts felt like a ton, I brought cooler stuff but its so hard to get tropical clothes in Alaska...even in our brief two weeks of"summer":)

Tomorrow we visit the other half of Universal, I sure wish Disney could have something like the Posidon show, I kinda like it. Its true that all the REAL talent went to Universal...duh for you Eisner. I'll report back again, I'd rather do my trip reports here instead of the normal forum as my goal is to research the failures of Eisner's leadership in creating a theme park experiance that make people come back again.

[GILTPRDSDM]

Just for fun I checked out the web site SaveDisney.com. No way is this Roy Disney's site. A 10 yoa kid from Montana could have done a better job wil the set up and contents.

It sounds like a few employee's or maybe one of them is upset for some reason. I dought very much that this is done by a large number of Cast Members. They are smart enough to know if no one shows up to WDW,they are layed off.

Other then this web site I have never heard anything else about this "large scale" boycott of WDWin January.
Roy was due to get out. He should have been out a few years ago because of his age. Isner,well I'm still not sure. Maybe we need new blood every now and then.

As for all else,how many company's went under the last few years? It's been a ruff road the past few,layoffs all over,cut backs,less hours,less service,increased prices,lost wages. Not just at Disney,all over the country and the world.

I've spoken to a number of Disney workers over the years and last time was the first week of December.I haven't heard a bad thing about Disney from anyone of them and I'm very friendly with several and they would tell me if they hated it. Sorry Mastergracy but I'll be back at the end of January and have as good a time as always.There's no place like home.

[JeffH]

IN FACT Esiner's GREED and BLOODLUST to RID the company of a member of the Disney family is what lead to Roy's removal!!!!!!!
How can someone label a 'conjured' opinion as this as "FACT", when it obviously is simply factless (and baseless) name calling.
One thing I haven't heard is that perhaps it was Roy Jr. (who is NOT Roy or Walt) who is jealous of Michael's position and has done all he can to interfere with the best interests of the Disney company?

[Samirella]

Originally posted by GILTPRDSDM
Just for fun I checked out the web site SaveDisney.com. No way is this Roy Disney's site. A 10 yoa kid from Montana could have done a better job wil the set up and contents.




This is a portion of the disclaimer from the bottom of the home page:

This website has been established to provide a forum for discussing, analyzing and critiquing the performance, direction and management of The Walt Disney Company and is not affiliated with, sponsored by or endorsed by The Walt Disney Company. The names "Disney" and "The Walt Disney Company" are trademarks of The Walt Disney Company. The opinions expressed in the postings on this website are those of the authors of the postings and do not necessarily reflect the views of Shamrock, Roy E. Disney or Stanley P. Gold unless they are the authors. Neither Shamrock, Roy E. Disney nor Stanley P. Gold is liable for (1) any conduct associated with this message board or chat room, (2) any messages posted on this message board or chat room or (3) any loss and/or damages resulting from the use of this website....

Shamrock Holdings is the company affiliated with Roy Disney and Stanley Gold.
http://www.shamrockinc.com/home.asp

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by JeffH
How can someone label a 'conjured' opinion as this as "FACT", when it obviously is simply factless (and baseless) name calling.
One thing I haven't heard is that perhaps it was Roy Jr. (who is NOT Roy or Walt) who is jealous of Michael's position and has done all he can to interfere with the best interests of the Disney company?
Hey, maybe we can blame Roy Jr for those things that haven't gone so well too! After all convoluted logic is always available to fit one's views.

[anniet]

Originally posted by GILTPRDSDM
Just for fun I checked out the web site SaveDisney.com. No way is this Roy Disney's site. A 10 yoa kid from Montana could have done a better job wil the set up and contents.



Uh-oh!:eek:

Someone better call the LA bizjournals and Reuters!

http://www.bizjournals.com/losangeles/stories/2003/12/08/daily43.html

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by Goofyposter
No....actually this IS a "big whoop".

Other directors of equal age were NOT mandated to step down.......ROY had the designation of 'MANGAGEMENT'....and by defination within the board policy....that SHOULD HAVE exempted him from stepping down due to his age.

IN FACT Esiner's GREED and BLOODLUST to RID the company of a member of the Disney family is what lead to Roy's removal!!!!!!!
Bloodlust? Please. Let's see if we can't get a little more over-dramatic about it. That will definately make people sit up and listen. :rolleyes:

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by Planogirl
Hey, maybe we can blame Roy Jr for those things that haven't gone so well too! After all convoluted logic is always available to fit one's views.
Wasn't Roy at the helm of Feature Animation when "Return to Neverland", "Atlantis", and "Treasure Planet" were developed, produced, and released? I think he deserves a LITTLE tweak for those ....

:earsboy:

[Mr D]

Today was Universal Studios day, never been there before in my life, both parks have a different attitude than Disney.....at USF the CMs are actually nice!

Perhaps a few more should get laid off. If I was snooping for the company it would have been a major red letter day the last time I was at Disney.

[Belle041281]

I applaud those trying to do something to get Eisner out and for those of you who feel like boycotting is not going to get the message out wake up and realize that without us "The Disney Freaks" so to speak Eisner or the rest would not have jobs. I have noticed a big change in WDW and how it has really gone down hill and am very dissapointed. I would like Disney to be around for my children to enjoy just the way I have been able to enjoy it but I am afraid unless something changes it won't be.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Mr D
Today was Universal Studios day, never been there before in my life, both parks have a different attitude than Disney.....at USF the CMs are actually nice!

Perhaps a few more should get laid off. If I was snooping for the company it would have been a major red letter day the last time I was at Disney. You must have gone on a good day, every time that I've been I've always encountered rude CM's there with no personality.

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by Mr D
Today was Universal Studios day, never been there before in my life, both parks have a different attitude than Disney.....at USF the CMs are actually nice!

Perhaps a few more should get laid off. If I was snooping for the company it would have been a major red letter day the last time I was at Disney.
I'm glad that you ran into nice employees at USF. We did too but I've heard that US hired a lot of the CM's that were laid off. I just wonder how many of the nice ones used to work for Disney? And maybe that includes Management?

Wasn't Roy at the helm of Feature Animation when "Return to Neverland", "Atlantis", and "Treasure Planet" were developed, produced, and released? I think he deserves a LITTLE tweak for those ....
True, except I think that Treasure Planet deserved better. It wasn't great but it wasn't bad either.

Well, whoever is to blame, it simply isn't working most of the time! :crazy:

[Mr D]

I definately back up my statements of the cast members being more polite at USF than the ones at WDW, difference though being that WDW had more senior citizens and of course they were of the most professional and courteous stature, in other words great people (at WDW) but yes the Twister ride is very much still at USF, went on it and everything else with my 9 year old son, he was absolutely thrilled with Jimmy Neutron! Twister really scared him though, Earthquake seemed neat but really outdated, they need to modernize it somehow, and Jaws need to have a review of a sorts in keeping the "illusion" real, the wrecked boat was terribly grimy, something should be changed as its all too obvious its been there forever, but Joey really loved it. Overall I think USF and IOA is a definate winner, they just have a fresher ambience, WDW seems like its stuck in a time warp...ESPECIALLY at EPCOT! where its like going back in time 30 years, everything seems so outdated. Its so hard trying to justify spending over $50 just to go see "one" new ride at EPCOT (M:S) I know its new and it may be two years before I return from Alaska again but in all repect and reality Disney has no magnetism, no "whoopie" no "WOW".

Fundamentally this is a problem that needs immediate attention, there should be more emphasis on "teasers" of future attractions, like the new one at DAK, Walt used to do that over 40 years ago on Its a Wonderfull World, he would do a progress report on current affairs and future ones. Why can't Eisner do that? so stupid to think he can run Disney like a dictator, really thats what it is, like a drug lord, argue you get "removed".

I think when he eventuall does leave he is gonna buy a third world country, criminy he can definately afford it:p

I can't really find faults at Universal, its like they got it right, the only reason Disney gets all the bucks is because they have the "name" hopefully Universal can get whatever ownership bugs worked out, they got the spirit Disney lost (maybe it IS the CM's after all....;) )

[RickinNYC]

Originally posted by DawnCt
I don't think that it was wise for Disney to make the cuts that they did, despite "difficult economic times". They suffered in terms of customer loyalty. When I spend my hard earned discretionary income on vacation, I don't want to hear that hours are being cut, restaurants are closed and services are being cut because income is down. The cruise industry didn't cut back, they cut prices, they filled their ships and the business now is more than "afloat". I found that is where we get the biggest bang for the buck. They have built newer and bigger ships, increased service and have cut prices so they are nothing but attractive.
The same is true of other destinations. We were able to get great hotel rates when Hawaii's economy was down. They didn't send the help home and close restaurants. They provided a service at an enticing price. Eisner has squandered enough money on his pay offs for people he couldn't get along with and have placed that burden on the theme park visitors. He should have allowed enough cushion to maintain the level of services that long terms guests were accustomed to. He didn't and he has lost some formerly loyal guests for quite a while.

I'm sorry but can I remind you and everyone else that Walt Disney World, while cutting back on hours an hour here or there, or God forbid close a counter service restaurant that is underused during the offseason, offered the Fairy Tale Package? Did you and everyone else forget? Was I the only one to get such an amazing deal????

They did exactly what the other tourist industry companies did. In order to bring in guests and fill their parks and resort rooms, they CUT BACK the prices.

As for not offering anything new or enticing to the guests, I guess the following don't count at all do they:

Mission: Space
Mickey's Philharmagic
the addition of Nemo to the Living Seas
the Wishes fireworks show
the creation of the new auto stunt show at the studios
the building of Expedition: Everest at AK
Soaring Over California at Epcot
the opening of Pop Century
the building of the Saratoga Springs resort
the renovation of Port Orleans French Quarter
the renovation of the World of Disney store and the addition of Once Upon A Toy in the marketplace

I can go on and on and on with this list. Rather than moaning and comlaining that Disney has forgotten the guests, sit back and really take a look at what they've done in the past few years. They are doing everything they can to keep their guests happy. Without guests, there is no Disney World or Disneyland.

You don't think they know that? Are you for real? :earseek:

Is this slamming anyone that agrees with the poster. Heck no. But WAKE UP! The entire Disney corporation is losing money and they are doing what is economically feasible and rational to maintain what quality they can afford. And I want to stress that I intentionally used the word CORPORATION. Say it with me folks. C-O-R-P-O-R-A-T-I-O-N! They are a business that operates with the almight dollar. They MANUFACTURE pixie dust and magical dreams. They don't operate with it for cryin' out loud.

[anniet]

I know I'm splitting hairs here, and I somewhat agree with most of what you posted, but your list including Saratoga Springs Resorts is problematic.

Disney Resort Guests aren't really getting anything there. DVC is a BIG BIG moneymaker for Disney however DVC members are constantly reminded that the two (DVC and Disney) are seperate entities- especially when looking for park discounts or trying to book at Disney resorts or DCL with DVC points.

While I do appreciate the fact that Saratoga Springs is being built remember it is replacing Disney Institute that failed miserably with what they know is a sure moneymaker.

[RickinNYC]

Originally posted by anniet
While I do appreciate the fact that Saratoga Springs is being built remember it is replacing Disney Institute that failed miserably with what they know is a sure moneymaker.

I fail to see where there is a problem with this. The Disney Institute was a flop, plain and simple, you are correct. That said, why wouldn't they close it, renovate it and reopen it in what you said is a BIG, BIG money maker.

DVC notwithstanding, non members are still allowed to rent points or to even stay at any DVC resort as a guest.

My point is that Disney is doing what it can for guests.

Have to also agree that you are indeed splitting hairs.

[MasterGracy]

Once upon a time there was a wonderful king who dreamed of building a beautiful kingdom where everything was good. With a little bit of magic, a lot of hard work, and the help of some very smart and talented servants, the wonderful king finally built his beautiful kingdom. The kingdom was full of fairies and dragons, lovely princesses, ghosts, flying elephants and talking animals. There were mermaids and pirates, race cars and submarines, mad tea parties and missions to mars. Everything sparkled. People came from all around to see the beautiful kingdom that the wonderful king and his good servants had built. Everything was clean. Few people ever got hurt. Everyone was happy. Servants served with glee. People who visited the kingdom were treated as honored guests and did not ever want to leave. Everywhere was joy and happiness, the smell of goodies and the memories of childhood.

After the king died, new kings came along. They weren't as wonderful as the first king, but they were good and protected the kingdom. The beautiful kingdom started to get bigger and bigger, and the good kings realized that they could not rule all alone to keep the first king's dreams alive. So the good kings allowed the people to share in the reign of the beautiful kingdom by investing their money in it as shareholders. There were some hard times in the kingdom, but the good kings and their servants made everything better. More and more people came to visit the kingdom because it made them happy to be there and the kingdom got better every day.

But then one day a new king, the Eisnermeister, came who did not know the wonderful first king or his dream. He learned a little bit about the dream, and in the beginning it seemed that he would be a good king like the others before him. He did many good deeds for the people and he expanded the beautiful kingdom even more and made it better. He even enforced equal rights for his servants. But as time went on, the new king didn't want everyone to be happy all the time. He became selfish and did not want anyone else to rule the beautiful kingdom with him. The Eisnermeister wanted to rule it all by himself without anyone helping or telling him what to do. He did not think it was right that money from the royal treasury should be used to pay good salaries to his servants, or to be spent to keep the kingdom clean and safe. He thought that he should have all the money in the royal treasury for himself because he was the king. the king did not want to be king any more. He wanted to be Emperor, and he studied the ways of Hitler and Stalin and Castro.

The Eisnermeister also did not think that it was important for guests in the beautiful kingdom to be treated special, so he began to hire servants who were just like him, who did not like people and were not as happy and gleeful as the original servants. The king wanted more and more money for his treasury, and he became mean and ugly and threatened everybody. The guests became sad. The ghosts and fairies got bored. The submarines sailed away and never came back. The princesses became spoiled children who talked rudely to their parents and wore clothes that made them look like sluts. The king built many new things in the kingdom at very low prices, and the sparkle of the kingdom became cheap and gawdy looking. The beautiful kingdom was not beautiful any more.

Then the good servants who remembered the wonderful king and his dream started to tell everyone how horrible the Eisnermeister was. They warned everyone that if the Eisnermeister did not leave the kingdom, the wonderful first king's dream would be lost forever. The Eisnermeister did not like this. He transformed into a great monster and banished those good servants from the kingdom. Even the relatives of the first wonderful king were not safe from the Eisnermeister's great wrath.

Many guests to the kingdom liked the mean Eisnermeister and agreed that he should have all the money. They did not believe in the dream. Some guests cared a little about the wonderful king's dream, but they didn't care enough about what the Eisnermeister did. But some guests missed the wonderful king and his dream. They missed the days when the kingdom was beautiful and the servants were happy and nice and cared about people. So the good guests, with the help of the good servants who were banished, and the good servants who still secretly served in the kingdom (for they could not let the Eisnermeister and the bad servants know that there was still some good left in the kingdom), and all who loved the beautiful kingdom, decided to save it from the evil Eisnermeister. They began to tell other guests not to give their money to the wicked Eisnermeister, that they should fight against him and convince him that he must leave the kingdom. Some people who cared agreed. But many laughed and said the king was too powerful, that any resistance was futile.

Then all the fairies and magical creatures in the kingdom put a curse on the evil, wicked monster, the Eisnermeister, and he had a massive coronary and dropped dead, leaving all the money in the treasury to restore the beautiful kingdom. The beautiful kingdom was saved. All the bad servants were kicked out of the kingdom and all the banished good servants returned. More servants were hired to make the kingdom clean and safe again. The fairies and talking animals danced for joy. The princesses covered their naked bossoms. The kingdom sparkled again with lights and magic. The bad guests remained as their miserable old selves, but the good guests and the good servants lit the fireworks and celebrated throughout the beautiful kingdom. And they all lived happily ever after. The End.

[RickinNYC]

double post. sorry

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by Mr D
I can't really find faults at Universal, its like they got it right, the only reason Disney gets all the bucks is because they have the "name" hopefully Universal can get whatever ownership bugs worked out, they got the spirit Disney lost (maybe it IS the CM's after all....;) )
I wonder if part of the reason you so enjoyed Universal is that you'd never been there before, so EVERYTHING was new and fresh and exciting.

That's not to say that things aren't wrong at Disney, but you've been to Disney again and again, and have seen things change and have seen things get worse, in your eyes, and so you're totally disillusioned with Disney.

Then, you walk into Universal where everything is new to you. So of course it's better. There's absolutely nothing there that you can go on and say, "This used to be better." There's nothing you can visit and think, "I liked this before they changed it." I'll bet that you walk into WDW looking to find things that are wrong; waiting for Disney to match your expectations from years of visits. On the flip side, you probably walked into Universal with no expectations at all, so it was pretty easy to bowl you over.

Just a thought ...

:earsboy:

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by WDSearcher
I wonder if part of the reason you so enjoyed Universal is that you'd never been there before, so EVERYTHING was new and fresh and exciting.

That's not to say that things aren't wrong at Disney, but you've been to Disney again and again, and have seen things change and have seen things get worse, in your eyes, and so you're totally disillusioned with Disney.

Then, you walk into Universal where everything is new to you. So of course it's better. There's absolutely nothing there that you can go on and say, "This used to be better." There's nothing you can visit and think, "I liked this before they changed it." I'll bet that you walk into WDW looking to find things that are wrong; waiting for Disney to match your expectations from years of visits. On the flip side, you probably walked into Universal with no expectations at all, so it was pretty easy to bowl you over.

Just a thought ...

:earsboy: My thoughts exactly. I could get into the whole Disney vs Universal debate, but that isn't the main topic here.

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by MasterGracy
... and he studied the ways of Hitler and Stalin and Castro.
Look ... whatever you perceive the "Eisnermeister" has done, show me how that even remotely relates to how Hitler, Stalin or Castro ruled. Let's not trivialize the Holocaust or a world war by putting them into a silly fairy tale about a theme park. That just shows incredibly bad taste. And I'll bet even the original king and his nephew would agree.

(Sorry ... it just hit a nerve ... it's a THEME PARK for goodness sake!)

:mad:

[Mr D]

That was a wonderful fairy tale...

BUT, unfortunately it aptly describes the whole kitten n' kaboodle. I really liked it, and do not let these "new" posters sway your opinions.


I sorta took the day off but did go over to Old Towne, rode the G-Force with my son, man thats a blast! We don't have the bravery yet for the mega soarin' thing. Now I've been to IOA twice now and we are going back again tomorrow, how soon do we get jaded, cynical and bitter? 3rd or 4th trip? Or do I have to get a job at Disney first and live my life under the employment conditioning contract? geejus, get a life folks. I work hard in Arctic conditions driving a concrete mixer 9 months out of the year plus being a plant engineer, it pays pretty darn good as most folks coming up from the lower 48 wash out trying to cut it, me I've been doing it for 12 years, nya:p
I can afford to rent a house for four weeks and go where I want to go.

Yes, USF is new to me, but so was WDW two years ago.
That was the first time in my life to visit back in dec. 2001 and right from the start it was noticeable from the "who cares" attitutude of the CMs in the parking lot to the ticket seller rolling his eyes and giving me the feeling like "so what if its expensive, what you gonna do about it?" on to the clerk at the watch store that had a kajillion cheapo watches and just a handful of batteries, none that would work on my Citizen and could care less unless I bought a chinese Mickey watch. And the notables, like a certain one that i cannot name where he works that was telling me about the working conditions of constantly being appraised and often spied upon by security posing as tourists, but there were gems amongst the gravel, notably all the senior citizens were exceptionally polite and helpful. Maybe thats whats needed, fire everyone under 50 years of age!;)

Anyhow, I'm off to IOA agin tomorrow, have yet to see the Sinbad show or ride Bluto's barges, Disney isn't going anywhere and that has multiple meanings.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Mr D
Anyhow, I'm off to IOA agin tomorrow, have yet to see the Sinbad show or ride Bluto's barges, Disney isn't going anywhere and that has multiple meanings. And Universal is going place also. :rolleyes: What's that? They haven't had any major additions since 1999 when IOA opened? What's that? They just sold the huge parcel of land next to IOA and RPH, so there goes any future hopes for a third gate?

I think its great that you are having a wonderful time in Universal, and that you would let a few random CM's at Disney ruin your overall experience. For me the overall experience at Universal is horrible, I just don't get the same "immersive" time at Universal then I do at Disney. Call me crazy, but I actually don't like going on rides and being able to see the backstage areas or the outside world... sorry Universal.

[MasterGracy]

If your only focus on Hitler and Stalin is the Holocaust, you've missed about 95% of the history of their reigns. The aspect of their reigns, as pertains to my little story, is their greed for totalitarian dictatorship, which my making mention of is far from bad taste, and which is hardly trivial. If the entire Disney empire is merely "an amusement park" to you, then the entire debate is totally lost on you.

There's always one in the bunch.

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by MasterGracy If the entire Disney empire is merely "an amusement park" to you, then the entire debate is totally lost on you.
I said theme park, not amusement park. There's a difference. If you're going to criticize a comment, at least quote me accurately. And, your fairy tale seemed to focus on the parks, unless there are other areas of the kingdom that sport "mermaids and pirates, race cars and submarines, mad tea parties and missions to mars." Your focus was on the parks, hence was mine in my comments.

Originally posted by MasterGracy There's always one in the bunch.
Yes. Yes, there is.

[RickinNYC]

Originally posted by WDSearcher
Yes. Yes, there is.

WDSearcher, you can include me in your court. Make that TWO.

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by RickinNYC
WDSearcher, you can include me in your court. Make that TWO.
And in some ways three.

Why does it almost always seem to come down to us or them? I feel blessed because I enjoy BOTH.

[mitros]

Well, as typical around these parts,a post goes down hill after four pages. How did we go from a boycott of Disney to Hitler and Stalin. Sheeesshh....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Sarangel]

OK gang... Play nice with each other. Remember that one of the rules of this forum is no personal attacks - If you can't follow the rule, I'll close down the thread.

Sarangel

[JeffH]

Once upon a time there was a wonderful king who built a beautiful kingdom where everything was good <that would be Disneyland>. He then bought up land in Florida with the intention of building a 'perfect' community he wanted to call EPCOT (no theme parks of any kind). Unfortunately he couldn't get financing for his (moronic) dream unless he cloned another Disneyland there first. He agreed, then he died, then construction began and the delusion of Epcot was gone (whew!).
When this cloned park finally opened it was devoid of many of the things we have come to love over the years, there was no mountains, no roller coasters, no pirates (or dragons), no Pooh, no night parade, and Tomorrowland was a joke featuring Mission to the Moon (the only Tomorrowlike attraction), a race car track(?!?), a 360 movie about the USA(?!?), a ride about traveling...IN A PLANE(?!?). Everything sparkled, because it was brand new as you would expect. People came from all around to see the beautiful kingdom that the wonderful king had basically nothing to do with didn't originally want to build at all. As a result the park was very crowded, the lines were very long and as a result they had to keep the park open real late to accomodate all the guests. Characters encounters were rare and the guests killed each other to see them when they randomly popped up somewhere. Everything was clean, as it still is today (except to those with selective memories who didn't bother to remember the messes they encountered when they first went so they now think that somehow magically the messes never existed). Few people ever got hurt, as it still is today. Everyone was happy, as they still are today. Servants served with glee, as they still do today. People who visited the kingdom were treated as honored guests as they still are today, and did not ever want to leave, as they still do today. Everywhere was joy and happiness, the smell of goodies as there still is today. There were no magical memories of childhood, since the park just opened. The park was so new and so 'special' that many later developed rediculously unrealistic memories of how 'perfect' it was and could never again enjoy it like they did when they first experienced it.
After updating Tomorrowland to actually be a Tomorrowland and adding some Pirates, the 'kings of the time' decided, in a fit of greed, to rip the heart out of Fantasyland by selling the only 'Mickey Mouse' attraction (the Mickey Mouse Revue) to Japan. The kings of the time then decided to expand their kingdom by building their (money making) version of EPCOT and brought new meaning to the word commercialism, by basically selling every pavilion out to a sponsor. The rest of the world laid waste. The new kings, were idiots and failed to protect the kingdom and greenmailers almost destroyed the whole company. After realizing their stupidity, the kings of the time finally brought in a new king (Eisner). Eisner brilliantly expanded the empire with new and different theme and water parks, and beautiful themed hotels and brought the Kingdom right into your hometown (Disney Stores), into your theatres (Disney on Ice shows, and a revitalized movie empire), and into your homes (Disney Channels and ABC). More and more people came to visit the kingdom because it made them happy to be there and the kingdom got better every day. Unlike the original king who ruled alone with only his brother to challenge him, Eisner answered to a board and the stockholders, whose #1 goal was to make money. In such a big kingdom Eisner found it impossible to make everyone happy all the time, but he did his best. The empire has always paid its servants better than nearby empires, and it's benefits are chershed by all including all of those keep the kingdom clean and safe.
In the last 15 years, the king built many new expensive and unique things in the kingdom and developed many new alliances with many talented people and their empires (george lucas, muppets, pixar), and developed more new original themes (lion king, aladdin...) than the original king did (most of which were NOT based on original stories) and the sparkle of the kingdom has never been better. The beautiful tiny little kingdom was now a beautiful giant kingdom filled with many different things for everyone to enjoy. He has built glorious mountains and reversed the crass commercialization of the previous administration. It's hard to find commercial references in HIS 1st park, MGM. His 2nd park AK involved a decade of research and development and you won't find 1 store on this parks 'main street' (the oasis), and all of the buildings are part of the jungle. Wonderfully rich live entertainment is everywhere, character encounters are everywhere at anytime as well as where you expect. Parades can be found at almost all the parks, with spectacular special events throughout the year (star wars days, food/flower festivals, soaps weekend, xmas, halloween...). Unlike the good old days, there are now so many ways to enjoy yourself in Eisner's kingdom aside from the many new parks and attractions, including pin trading, wonderful eating experiences with many character dining options, catching a live street act, or just sitting around and enjoying the streetmousephere go by (musicians, street players, the people, the cheerful castmembers, the beautiful landscaping and architecture). You can even be accompanied by pal mickey. No longer is a trip to the kingdom one dimensional, with all these dimensions, you can make your vacation whatever you want it to be... from a frenzied park-hopping marathon, to a laid back day enjoying live shows and all you can eat dining.
But this didn't stop Eisner, he demonstrated his caring and wisdom when he eliminated the one unpleasant theme park experience...waiting in line. Fastpass was such a success that other kingdoms scrambled to copy the ingenious concept which allowed you to do more, gives everyone the opportunity to enjoy the ultra-popular attractions, while eliminating the need to wait in long lines to enjoy them.
And to top it off, Eisner has now taken the kingdom full circle and finally restored the heart of the MK by adding Mickey's Philharmagic back where Mickey's original attraction was ripped out from in the good all days.

Unfortunately there are still some miserable guests who miss the wonderful king and his dream, ignoring the fact that if his dream had been allowed to come true would have meant no Kingdom at all, no parks, no hotels, no fun, no time. A king who entire kingdom was based his reinterpretation of the works of others, a king who then built one magical park based on these works then cloned it here in Florida. They spend their little time in the kingdom now looking for messes that went unnoticed in the good ol' days in their excitement of enjoying the newness of the earlier kingdom. They fail to notice how much more beautiful and diverse the landscaping is nowadays (especially since AK opened) than it was in the good ol' days. And with their negative attitudes they manage to bring down even the most cheerful cast member (funny, nearly all the CMs I meet are cheerful and more than helpful).
Despite the miserable ones, the happy guests find it easy to enjoy all the wonder that Eisner has provided and continues to provide. The bad guests will probably remain as their miserable old selves until they die, but the good guests and the good servants will continue to light the fireworks and celebrate throughout the beautiful diverse multi-dimensional kingdom, and live happily ever after. The End.

[Mr D]

5 days into a 28 day vacation in Orlando...and still hav'nt been to WDW.:p

[Planogirl]

Hmmmm.... I'll reserve judgment on these fairy tales except to say that I wish that I still believed in them. Of course, some are harder to even imagine than others...

[mitros]

Though your post was interesting {to a point} it was rather rambling, so let me see if I understand you correctly, Walt Disney was a moron and Ei$ner is a god? :confused: :rolleyes: Oh, by the way, a simple yes or no answer will suffice.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Mr D
5 days into a 28 day vacation in Orlando...and still hav'nt been to WDW.:p How unfortunate for you.

[MasterGracy]

Theme park, amusment park, car park, whatever. The point was, the Disney Company is much MUCH more than just the parks. It's not just in the parks that quality has dropped, that employees are mistreated, etc etc etc.

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by MasterGracy
Theme park, amusment park, car park, whatever. The point was, the Disney Company is much MUCH more than just the parks. It's not just in the parks that quality has dropped, that employees are mistreated, etc etc etc.
FYI ... employees were "mistreated" in Walt's day too. There are plenty of accounts of how animators, secretaries, engineers and imagineers were unhappy with how they were treated at Disney, most of them complaining about Disney himself. MY point is that the situation is not black and white. Walt Disney was not 100% good and Michael Eisner is not 100% bad. The difference is that we tend to look at Walt and forget the bad -- we see him through this fog of childhood memory, and we assign him no bad thoughts. Any mistakes he made were forgotten in this haze of nostalgia. Eisner, on the other hand, is right there -- in the flesh, accessible and human, followed by media and scrutiny.

But I'll bet that if there were message boards and the like back in Walt's day, there'd have been a whole group of people writing back and forth every day about every little thing he did wrong and how someone needs to take the company away from that guy before he drives it into the ground.

:earsboy:

[Chuck S]

Especially when you consider that no one under the age of 43 even really remembers Walt. And no one under the age of 55 actually worked for him, unless they were a child actor. The truth is, very few of the people idolizing Walt knew him, talked to him, or even saw him...and history has a way of dulling our memories.

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by Mr D
5 days into a 28 day vacation in Orlando...and still hav'nt been to WDW.:p
You remind me of my Jehovah's Witness sister. She calls us every year on Christmas and on our birthdays to remind us that she's a Jehovah's Witness and that her religion prohibits her from acknowledging these holidays. But ... by calling us each year, she tacitly DOES acknowledge them. It's her way of still being able to celebrate holidays without really breaking any rules.

I think it's the same with you. You normally go to WDW and can't really imagine a Florida vacation without that, but in order to still keep WDW in your thoughts, you report daily on the fact that you haven't been there. It's your way of tacitly including WDW in your vacation, even though you're not including WDW in your vacation.

:earsboy:

PS. Five days is nothing. It'll be far more impressive when you hit day 27.

[Samirella]

Originally posted by Mr D

Maybe thats whats needed, fire everyone under 50 years of age!;)

[/B]

What you're basically saying is that anyone under 50 years of age is incapable of being a good cm. That, Mr. D is an unfair judgement. I, for one, have seen many a Senior Citizen prove to be just as lousy a cm as any one in any other age group. If you weren't so busy looking for horrible cms who didn't care you might have just realized that there is an abundance of tremendous cms of all ages. Even those "darn young 'uns" who can do nothing right.

*steps off soap box*

[Dznefreek]

FYI ... employees were "mistreated" in Walt's day too. There are plenty of accounts of how animators, secretaries, engineers and imagineers were unhappy with how they were treated at Disney Walt himself had a darkside that is rarely talked about except for a few books. When brother Roy tried to retire (several times)Walt threatened to cut him off financially and withold his retirement.

[KNWVIKING]

***"You remind me of my Jehovah's Witness sister. She calls us every year on Christmas and on our birthdays to remind us that she's a Jehovah's Witness and that her religion prohibits her from acknowledging these holidays. But ... by calling us each year, she tacitly DOES acknowledge them. It's her way of still being able to celebrate holidays without really breaking any rules."***

Perfect. Thank You.

[JeffH]

I was mearly pointing out that Disney wasn't as perfect as some seem to choose to remember, and that Eisner has taken this company right were we want it to be (in direct contrast to where Walt originally wanted to take it).
I also wanted to point out how, although a brilliant innovator and visionary, Walt did not create much of anything original except for that 1st rabbit character that was stolen from him...then he created Mickey Mouse, who looked almost exactly like that rabbit, sans the big ears.
Disney under Eisner, on the other hand, has created many new original stories and characters, while bringing new life to the old characters with new movies (e.g.Tigger movie) and classic story sequels (LM2, RtNeverland). I hope we someday get a Snow White sequel where they actually give her prince a name...I think this is the only reason that we don't see him doing any meet or greets (although he does parades).

[MasterGracy]

yada yada yada......

[anniet]

Originally posted by JeffH

I also wanted to point out how, although a brilliant innovator and visionary, Walt did not create much of anything original except for that 1st rabbit character that was stolen from him...then he created Mickey Mouse, who looked almost exactly like that rabbit, sans the big ears.
Disney under Eisner, on the other hand, has created many new original stories and characters, while bringing new life to the old characters with new movies (e.g.Tigger movie) and classic story sequels (LM2, RtNeverland).

I'm confused....how come Walt Disney doesn't get credit for creating characters like Pluto, Minnie, Goofy, Donald Duck, Daisy Duck, Huey, Dewey and Louie, and all their series of cartoons, but Eisner gets credit for new and original characters? Granted it may have been Walt's animators who created them and not Disney himself, but I haven't seen Eisner with an animator's pencil in his hand either.

And may I also say that I can't help but think history is repeating itself. The way Eisner is treating Roy Disney reminds me of the way Charles Mintz treated Walt Disney. I hope Roy turns out well in the end, as Walt Did. Who remembers that Rabbit's name?

[Goofyposter]

Who remembers that Rabbit's name?



Oswald

http://www.magicalears.com/films/animation/Shorts/oswald.gif

[mitros]

OK, so even though you did not give a straight yes or no answer,you indeed are saying, Walt, moron, Ei$ner, a god, right?

[JeffH]

OK, so even though you did not give a straight yes or no answer,you indeed are saying, Walt, moron, Ei$ner, a god, right?
If you would actually read what I have written, the ONLY subject that I mentioned the word moronic was in regards to Walt's concept of EPCOT. As far as EPCOT goes, Walt WAS moronic in thinking that you can build a perfect city by making the city perfect, when in fact it is the people that make the city and they can never be perfect...just look at the discussions on this board to prove that (no matter how good something is, someone will see it as bad and bash it).
Sure, Walt 'invented' all the other cartoon characters, but almost all of his movies were Disney adaptations of existing (and in most cases, public domain) stories, while during Eisner's reign almost all the movies are based on original stories...even the (not-so-classic) sequels were at least new and original stories written by Disney writers.

[anniet]

Originally posted by JeffH
If you would actually read what I have written, the ONLY subject that I mentioned the word moronic was in regards to Walt's concept of EPCOT. As far as EPCOT goes, Walt WAS moronic in thinking that you can build a perfect city by making the city perfect, when in fact it is the people that make the city and they can never be perfect...just look at the discussions on this board to prove that (no matter how good something is, someone will see it as bad and bash it).


I don't think the P in EPCOT stood for Perfect. Walt wasn't expecting to create a "perfect city by making the city perfect"---Walt wanted a community with cutting edge technology---Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow. His vision was of a city that would be ahead of it's time, and personally I think it was an awesome idea, even if it wasn't ever going to be a theme park.

He was a visionary and when he was alive Disney's glimpses into the future were brilliant--imho, every since he died Disney-the corporation- hasn't gotten the future right, they just gloss over it, like the ending of SE. They don't know what the heck they are doing. The movie Minority Report gave some way better ideas of what the future may be like, why can't Disney come up with ideas like that? Watching that movie anyone can get at least 10 ideas of futuristic attractions that are far better than anything that's in EPCOT now(although I will hold judgement on Mission Space, since I've not yet seen it) Apparently nobody at Disney cares anymore to look at what the future might hold with the same passion that Walt did.

[mitros]

I know we are not supposed to start fights and be mean on these boards, but I'm just trying to clarify your thoughts. Maybe I'm missing something, so I'll try to be clear on what I'm trying to find out from you. Simply put, do you dislike Walt Disney and what he did, and like Eisner for what he did? I'll let you have the last word on the subject. Thanks. :cool:

[Goofyposter]

Walt WAS moronic in thinking that you can build a perfect city by making the city perfect

Jeff.....I understand that by building a "perfect" house.....that doesn't mean you'll have "perfect" occupants.......but ......Do you mean by your comment that you don't think that Walt Disney thought that "epcot" would be a vision of a futuristic community that included less than perfect inhabitants????

[JeffH]

I don't think the P in EPCOT stood for Perfect
Actually it does...
It stands for Prototype, which means model, which means ideal, which means perfect.
And the C stands for Community (which includes the people), not City.
So based on the original goal, based on the name, Walt did think that he could create an ideal community of tomorrow by designing an ideal city.
But of course nobody (not even me) really can answer this question since the project never got off the ground.
---
I love Walt Disney.
I voted for him as man of the Century in the Epcot poll.
Walt Disney was an amazingly innovative and influential human being whose whole life was based on bringing happiness to the human race. I think he'd be appalled at the miserable and hatefilled people still in the world.

...he studied the ways of Hitler and Stalin and Castro...(he) had a massive coronary and dropped dead
I also think that he'd be just as upset over people associating Eisner to the above and wishing him die of a massive coronary, as he would be of those who accused him (Walt) of being a German sympathizer during WWII.

Disney's glimpses into the future were brilliant--imho
Then how do you explain the horrible example of Tomorrow that Walt presented when Tomorrowland opened at WDW in 1972? Nobody's been able to invision the future in a theme park...mainly because it is the future and by definition it is what we don't know about (because it isn't here yet) and how can you depict something that we aren't advanced enough to know how to do? Even shows like Star Trek could instantly become stupid if we, tomorrow, figured out how to use Engangled Particles for communication next week (which would enable instantaneous communications over unlimited distances). This is why the current concept of Tomorrowland is so brilliant as the tomorrow that never will be.

[All Aboard]

It stands for Prototype, which means model, which means ideal, which means perfect. Actually, a prototype is an early working model, one that serves as the basis for for additional future work. They are generally an example, something tangible with which to make decisions on how to improve. Prototypes are hardly ever "perfect."

[MasterGracy]

I guess this was actually a good thread. It showed us who the real fans are.

Interesting.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by MasterGracy
I guess this was actually a good thread. It showed us who the real fans are.

Interesting. So you aren't a real fan if you disagree with your way of thinking? Interesting indeed.

[Chuck S]

So, are the "real" fans the people that spend their money at Disney theme parks, buy DVC, plan vacations, buy Disney products - all enabling the company to spend more on R & D? Or are they the ones that sit around pouting and saying "I'm not gonna go because you're not doing it the way I want you to?"

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by Chuck S
So, are the "real" fans the people that spend their money at Disney theme parks, buy DVC, plan vacations, buy Disney products - all enabling the company to spend more on R & D? Or are they the ones that sit around pouting and saying "I'm not gonna go because you're not doing it the way I want you to?"
From what I've seen most of those here who critique Disney go to the parks and go quite often in fact. So what does that make them? Fake fans?

Why is it so bad for a fan to discuss those changes that he or she doesn't agree with?

[Another Voice]

"So, are the "real" fans the people that spend their money at Disney theme parks, buy DVC, plan vacations, buy Disney products - all enabling the company to spend more on R & D?"

No - the real fans are the ones who don't buy cheap merchandise that's far below Disney standards and enable the company to spend billions of dollars on failed cable channals, to lose billions more on a failing television network, to loose hundreds of millions on stupid Internet projects, or to write-off hundreds of millions of dollars in airplane leases.

Nor are the true fans the one who continue to pay more for less at the parks, who dream up excuses for every mistake, or who eagerly suffer the growing disrepect shown towards them for the company while demanding that everyone else whimper in silence.

And it's the true fans who especially refuse to allow a greedy CEO to continue strip mining Disney for his personal fortune.

[Chuck S]

No - the real fans are the ones who don't buy cheap merchandise that's far below Disney standards and enable the company to spend billions of dollars on failed cable channals, to lose billions more on a failing television network, to loose hundreds of millions on stupid Internet projects, or to write-off hundreds of millions of dollars in airplane leases.

Nor are the true fans the one who continue to pay more for less at the parks, who dream up excuses for every mistake, or who eagerly suffer the growing disrepect shown towards them for the company while demanding that everyone else whimper in silence.

And it's the true fans who especially refuse to allow a greedy CEO to continue strip mining Disney for his personal fortune.

Hmmm...based on the definition of fan...short for fanatic...and using a Thesarus "crank, zealot, bigot, maniac, extremist"...I whole heartedly agree.

[MasterGracy]

ANOTHER VOICE,

You hit the nail on the head. You are a true Disney fan.

[RickinNYC]

I, for one, do not need validation from an individual who experiences outbursts of e-tantrums when any one person or group does not agree with his/her opinions. MasterGracy, you can keep your estimation of who is a true Disney Fan.

And by the way, this is the Debate Board, not the I'm Going To Whine And Use Passive/Aggressive Insults When People Don't Agree With Me Board.

[Another Voice]

"crank, zealot, bigot, maniac, extremist"..."

Yup, pretty much the only people that can enjoy George of the Jungle 2.

Please enjoy your version of Disney&reg; for as long as it lasts.

[doombuggy]

Interesting thread. I agree with some things, disagree with others. But very interesting.

I have never heard of this fan club, though. And doombuggies.com is a great site. Did the OP have a bad experience?

Semper Fi~

[Devil's Advocate]

Here's the original of that little fairytale claimed by MasterGracey on page 4 of this thread. Dave would be interested to know that you wrote something so similar - 2 years after he did. Where did you say you got the inspiration again?

http://www.pruiksma.com/A%20NOT%20So%20Silly%20Symphony.html

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Another Voice
No - the real fans are the ones who don't buy cheap merchandise that's far below Disney standards and enable the company to spend billions of dollars on failed cable channals, to lose billions more on a failing television network, to loose hundreds of millions on stupid Internet projects, or to write-off hundreds of millions of dollars in airplane leases.

Nor are the true fans the one who continue to pay more for less at the parks, who dream up excuses for every mistake, or who eagerly suffer the growing disrepect shown towards them for the company while demanding that everyone else whimper in silence.
I re-up my Annual Pass every year, eat at some of the restaraunts when the mood strikes me, buy pins to add to my collection and that is about it for merchandise, and stay one night a year at a Disney resort because I have a house down here. What does that make me?

[JeffH]

cheap merchandise that's far below Disney standardsExactly what are we talking about here? What merchandise? Compared to what? Or are we again making general non-specific unsubstantiated attacks in an attempt to defame?
and enable the company to spend billions of dollars on failed cable channals, to lose billions more on a failing television network, to loose hundreds of millions on stupid Internet projects, or to write-off hundreds of millions of dollars in airplane leases. What failed cable channels? I haven't heard of any of the Disney cable channels failing. Sure, they bought a failing cable channel, how is it doing now, though? ABC failing, I think not...like all the networks they've had their ups (#1 in 2000, and last month) and their downs (pretty much since then), but overall I think ABC was a major coup. And what Internet projectS are we talking about? I remember GO.COM, that's about it...and considering all the money lost by about EVERY corporation on Internet investments that went bust, Disney came away relatively unscathed. I know nothing about airplane leases, but I know that every company makes gambles and sometimes they lose...that's part of business.
=========
Seems though we are arguing about the quality of Disney now verses the good old days. Well now wins...
Good old days:
We were given a sized down clone of a ~20 year old Disneyland. There was no new tech developed, hardly any originality (MMR,which was ripped out), a joke of a Tommorowland and 2 nice hotels.
Now the entertainment quality and new tech introduced in the last 15 years puts the first 15 years to shame:
The amazing and impressive Animal Kingdom (which was the result of a decade of research and development), including
Dinosaur, Kali River rapids (short, but beautiful), and the safari.
The equally impressive Animal Kingdom Lodge and Wilderness Lodge.
The build-out of Downtown Disney/Pleasure Island.
Body Wars/Star Tours
Fantasmic
Rock and Roller Coaster
Tower of Terror
Test Track
Philharmagic
Mission: Space
Quality LIVE shows all over instead of the few lip sync junk they used to serve up.
Landscaping is more diverse, lush and more beautiful than it ever has been.
Nor are the true fans the one who continue to pay more for less at the parks What less? Are you insane? WDW offers so much more than ever on so many levels for so many interests that it boggles the mind, at costs less than other limited theme parks charge?
Or are you one of those still hung up on the concept that the MK used to stay open until 2am back when there was only 1 dinky little park in order to accomodate the multitude of guests. Get real! Park hours have ALWAYS been based on attendance, were then, are now.
We have 4x high quality parks to choose from as well as high quality water parks.
We have many high quality dining choices now, many featuring characters. We see many many many more characters thoughout the parks.
More parades and more spontaneous entertainment.
The Cast Members are just as friendly and tons more fun than they've ever been.
more HIGH QUALITY merchandise to help you remember your special time with.
We have many diverse night-time activities to enjoy including fine dining, mini-golf, movies, CircDeOle(or whatever it's called), nightclubs, shopping, or park-hop to see Fantasmic or Reflections of Earth.
In the good old days you had long lines, now we have Fast Pass.
In the good old days you had to pay for every ride, now we can park hop and ride whatever we want to.
...who eagerly suffer the growing disrepect shown towards them for the company while demanding that everyone else whimper in silence. I have no idea what this means?!?
a greedy CEO to continue strip mining Disney for his personal fortune. What are you talking about??? Eisner's pay is not excessive for a CEO in his position. This is nothing but a low, crass, baseless shot at a man who had devoted his life to the company and created a remarkable entertainment empire...and like Walt, made the Earth a happier (and more magical) place to live.

Oh, and let me try to understand...we are suppose to be boycotting Disney for what?
They just opened Philharmagic and Mission: Space and are agressively building the Everest Project in AK, the proven Stunt Car show in MGM and the proven Soaring over California in Epcot all three of which are unique original Disney creations.
Disney easily won the box office crown in 2003 (for about the 7th time in the last 10 years), with the #1 and #3 film. And the marvelous Pirates of the Caribean entertained millions and just won the people's choice award for best film (beating Lord of the Rings II). Brother Bear did a respectible $83,689,855 in 2003.

Oh, and let me be the first to post a typical glib, meaningless response for those of you who don't seem to know the difference between constructive criticism and baseless bashing and slander...
"Yadda, yadda, yadda"

[airlarry!]

M. JeffH:

Disney has announced that the company is ending its role in the production of 2d animation after two projects in development are completed. As proof the staff has been reduced from 2300 to 600 animators in less than two years. Disney has continually produced the best of 2d animated features since 1938, but will not make it to its 70th anniversary as a hand-drawn animated studio.

The Florida project involved 43 square miles of private development, including a large initial park complete with two beautiful resorts on a monorail surrounded by water activities, a water park (the first of its kind), and an award-winning campground. A master plan was put into place that presented at least three more hotels, with a transportation system that did not rely on buses or cars for patrons to jet around the resort. The company, to its credit, as upgraded some of the hotels with beautiful pools and refurbished many of the rooms.

Now, Disney has added or will add two separate motel complexes accesible only by bus without feature pools or restaurant facilities far, far from the main park, in effect creating the exact same motel environment Walt despised as he watched the citrus trees come down around the original Disneyland.

The company has added many new, exciting, and to some classic Disney thrill rides to its four parks, but has seen areas of the Magic Kingdom remain empty and exposed for years...a blow to show far worse than the fact that Walt did not build the Matterhorn or MMR.

The MGM and AK parks, unlike the MK and Epcot, were purposefully built under the Ei$ner doctrine of half-filled parks intended to provide add-ons to a guests stay and compete with outside parks that were siphoning a small percentage of day-pay guests. This philosophy has continued to this day with the European Studios park and the announced attractions for the Magic Kingdom-HK park.Ei$ner has crowed about the short-term benefits of his namesake philosophy for the record, and has privately expressed concerns about the viability of continued full-fledged park expansion a la the Disney Seas project.

To date, two of the live shows you mention have been closed without live replacement (Lion King and Hunchback).

In the same diatribe against Walt for giving us "size downing clones" of DL's original rides, you crow about Mikey giving us clones of the Euro Stunt Show and Soarin' (rumor has it an exact duplicate). Kudos go for the announcment of Ex:E, which I hope is a big blockbuster as it looks, but I will as per usual reserve judgment until I actually ride the darn thing...cause M:S was a bust in my opinion and can't compare to the re-rideability of Pirates, Splash, Thunder, Space, Rock-n-roller, ToT, and Safari.

Jeff, please don't try and tell us everything is rosy in the Magic Kingdom. It just ain't true. Just the fact that WD is getting out of animation is depressing enough. Just the fact that we are going to be subjected to the Little Mermaid5:Grandma's Little Chicken Of the Sea is enough to make me drown my sorrows in a big Kungaloosh.

Oh, and, yes, I enjoyed my last vacation there, more than any other vacation I've had there. But that does not mean that I am happy with the direction Disney is heading. And I won't stick my head in the sand.

[WDSearcher]

airlarry,

Disney isn't "getting out of animation" ... they are downsizing 2d animation, but that's a factor of market and tastes as much as anything else.

If you go back and look at the history of Disney animation ... when 2d was in its heyday, animators were being hired right and left, and being paid enormous salaries (even by their standards -- one animator I know in Florida had his salary cut in half last year, during the first round of "economizing", and still had more than enough to live on, not to mention everything he'd been able to bank during the heady years). The Animation Building was built with no expense spared, and the animators were treated like (and many developed the egos of) gods. And a lot of what they did was worthy of that. Then Pixar came along, and the market began to change.

It was inevitable that time and technology would change animation and that there just wouldn't be the same need for the same number of hand-drawn features as there used to be. And with that comes downsizing and job loss. It was animation's answer to the Internet bubble. You think people didn't lose jobs when Walt and his boys developed the multi-plane camera and all of the other animation time-savers they came up with? Jobs were created too, of course, for those people who embraced the technology.

Just because Disney doesn't have any other 2d projects on the table after the two currently in production doesn't mean that there will never be a 2d project again. But I think we have to understand that the technology has made some things obsolete, as it always does. (Who uses a slide rule any more, after all?) Even Jeff Katzenberg, for all of his wanting to create a "traditional animation studio to rival Disneys" hasn't had a 2d hit ever, and hangs his hat on "Shrek."

RE: Hunchback and Lion King shows ... Hunch is being replaced by the stunt show, currently in production; Legend of the Lion King was replaced by PhilharMagic. So, we get one live show and one 3-D film. A 3-D film that brings back some of the nostalgia of the Mickey Mouse Revue to that venue, as well as bringing 3-D back to that venue (both of which people have lamented being gone). And just because the stunt show is a version / copy of the one in Paris and Soarin' a copy of what's in California doesn't make either attraction automatically negative. After all, didn't Walt first develop WDW as basically an east-coast copy of Disneyland?

:earsboy:

[Another Voice]

"Oh, and let me be the first to post a typical glib, meaningless response for those of you who don't seem to know the difference between constructive criticism and baseless bashing and slander..."

In my continuing efforts to help, I'd like to publish Disney's&reg; Official Guide to Eisner Criticism and Bashing so that people can tell the difference between constructive criticism and bashing:


Bashing:

Michael Eisner is an evil wretch of a person. He is driven solely by greed and the desire for personal fame and fortune. He is a man without taste, talent, or imgination. He is a bully, he is insecure, he is insincere. He twists everything he touches, he is a blight on the face of Hollywood and of America. The world will only be a better place when he is tossed aside and spends his final days as a shepherd in the more distant regions of Nepal.


Constructive Criticism:

Disney should fire Michael Eisner because he is an evil wretch of a person. Disney should can Michael Eisner because he is driven solely by greed and the desire for personal fame and fortune. Disney should terminate Michael Eisner because he is a man without taste, talent, or imgination. Disney should disassociate itself from Michael Eisner because he is a bully, he is insecure, he is insincere. Disney should sack Michael Eisner because he twists everything he touches, he is a blight on the face of Hollywood and of America. Disney could make the world will only be a better place by tossing out Michael Eisner to spend his final days as a shepherd in the more distant regions of Nepal.

I hope this is of assistance.

[MasterGracy]

ANOTHER VOICE,

Yup, that about sums it up. But people like RickInNYC will never get it because they simply just don't care, which is the very reason I could care less what they say about me. Let them remain in their ocean of ignorance (which, by strange coincidence of time and space, is the very definition of NYC). No skin off my nose. They simply need their diapers changed.

[airlarry!]

M. Searcher:

I didn't say Disney was 'getting out of animation'--you did. I said "Disney has announced that the company is ending its role in the production of 2d animation after two projects in development are completed."

"It was inevitable that time and technology would change animation and that there just wouldn't be the same need for the same number of hand-drawn features as there used to be."

Wrong. As John Lassiter says in his interview at the Disney Museum, technology is not king, it is the story that is supreme.

Would it surprise you to learn that staff members in both Burbank and Florida have argued that the flood of cheap sequels and too many rushed projects have contributed to the decline in box office for Disney's own releases? Course it would but it makes more sense than that computers are killing the hand-drawn market. Nope, lack of story, cheap crap on the market, and rushing films before they are ready is what is killing Disney.

You are correct that in life there are no absolutes nor guarantees, but right now the plans are for Disney to get out of the hand-drawn animation market.

Read that sentence again. Puhlease.

Back? Okay, doesn't that irritate you in the least? Or maybe downright tick you off? Or maybe even depress you that the company that STILL makes money off of movies they released 65 years ago is now getting out of the market. And who is to say that they will ever get back in? Please share with us any internal memorandum you have that suggests Disney is on only a temporary hiatus (like the hiatus the submarines are in, perhaps?)

Yes, they are getting two shows in replacement. I was just correcting factual errors in M. JeffH's statements, not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with the decisions. It is a fact that they got rid of two live action shows based upon Disney hand-drawn releases. It is also a fact that two of the replacements in WDW will be clones. Don't take an inference from these, they are just facts.

I have a question. Some here may not agree with a boycott. Some here do not like The Element pointing out what is not so rosy with the Company.

If you are in that minority ;) what would it take for you to become bearish on the company's creative outlook for the future? What would it take for you to become a vocal critic of the company?

[WDSearcher]

Originally posted by airlarry! M. Searcher:

I didn't say Disney was 'getting out of animation'--you did. I said "Disney has announced that the company is ending its role in the production of 2d animation after two projects in development are completed."
Sorry for attributing a quote to you. I realize now that I had read that in someone else's post, but was responding to you, and so it got included. I dislike when that's done to me, so my apologies.

Originally posted by airlarry! Would it surprise you to learn that staff members in both Burbank and Florida have argued that the flood of cheap sequels and too many rushed projects have contributed to the decline in box office for Disney's own releases? Course it would but it makes more sense than that computers are killing the hand-drawn market.
Nope. Wouldn't surprise me at all. Those things have indeed contributed to the decline. But I also think that computer animation is where the industry is going. Doesn't mean I think hand-drawn or 2d will or should disappear completely, but every trend report you see of what kids are watching and what kids want to see (and, like it or not, the primary market for animated features is still kids) shows that they want CG animation. Maybe it's ignorance on their part, or a short attention span, but there you go. Technology wins right now. Say all you want about the depth of hand-drawn animation and the richness of color and technique, but technology still wins.

Disney and other studios have already shown us that computer animation won't make a bad story better. But 2d animation won't either. And if you've already got a good story, then CG animation isn't going to make it worse, and it will get it to screen for less money. So 2d loses in both cases.

Originally posted by airlarry! Okay, doesn't that irritate you in the least? Or maybe downright tick you off? Or maybe even depress you that the company that STILL makes money off of movies they released 65 years ago is now getting out of the market.
Sure it does. But I also don't believe that it means the downfall of all things animation or all things entertainment. For years, Hollywood didn't produce musicals, and I hated that. My parents would talk about going to the theater to see Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire and watch musicals on the big screen. And it ticked me off that people didn't do that any more because they were too expensive or people didn't want them or whatever the reason. So I rented the old musicals and enjoyed them that way. And now musicals are back, and I can see films like "Chicago" and "Moulin Rouge" and anticipate upcoming film remakes of "The Producers" and "Thoroughly Modern Millie." So to me, this is part of a normal cycle. 2d will go away, all the new stuff will show up and have its day, and then someone will re-create the amazing world of 2d animation and there will be a resurgence. I don't know when that will happen, but I know that between now and then, there are likely to be other things -- entertaining and amazing 3d animation, perhaps -- to watch while I wait. Will there be dreck? Of course. But there will also be Finding Nemo, and other things like it that make me gaze in wonder at what computers can do these days.

Originally posted by airlarry!
I have a question. Some here may not agree with a boycott. Some here do not like The Element pointing out what is not so rosy with the Company.

If you are in that minority ;) what would it take for you to become bearish on the company's creative outlook for the future? What would it take for you to become a vocal critic of the company?
I am a vocal critic of the company, actually. But I don't believe that everything Michael Eisner does is bad and evil, nor do I believe that everything Walt did was pure and good. I see something I don't like -- paint chipping, a bad show, a nasty cast member -- at WDW, and I'll mention it to someone at Guest Relations and then I go on with my vacation. I don't dwell on it. I don't go in looking for things that have slipped, or count the number of rides that are down. To hell with that, I'm on vacation! I know that on any given day, I can't go on 100% of the rides in the parks anyway, nor do I WANT to go on them all. Some of them I just don't like, although it's fine with me if someone else does. I may be annoyed that something is closed, but it doesn't ruin my whole day or my whole opinion of the company. I think Pop Century is a garish, tacky-looking resort. So, I don't stay there. But do I think that the people who like Pop Century or think that it's unique and fun are stupid or wrong? No. Their preference, not mine.

I have, on these very boards, tossed out criticisms of films like "Return to Neverland" and "Country Bear Jamboree" that carry the Disney name, as things the company does that disrespect and insult its fans. I have said that I think Michael has had his day and that he needs to step aside and let someone else take over. But I don't believe he is an evil wretch of a person, that he is driven solely by greed or that he has no taste, talent or imagination. I think he's a high-level, high-powered, high-ego Hollywood executive who is no worse than most of the others at his level, and might even be better than one or two of them.

But I've also asked several times (never receiving an answer, by the way), "If not Michael, who?" Even Roy and Stanley haven't answered that yet. And until someone -- anyone -- comes up with an option of who's going to take over the Walt Disney Company were Michael to step down tomorrow, I'm inclined to continue on with the devil I know. It seems that a large number of people here feel that "different" automatically means "better." And I don't agree with that. Just because someone other than Michael is in the driver's seat doesn't mean that person will instantly and completely embrace the Disney name and philosophy and make it all better again. Yet, as I see movements made on the upper management level, I have hope that soon things will be better. Getting Matt Ouimet to California was a wonderful move, for example.

So my answer to your question is that I AM a vocal critic when I feel something really needs to be criticized. But I am not an automatic vocal critic. I don't disagree with everything just because it was Michael's idea. I've never run a multi-media conglomerate, or even a smaller theme park and animation company, so I have no idea how to do it better, and I really hate Monday morning quarterbacks. And I see no reason to boycott something. If Disney makes a movie I don't like, I just won't go see it. If I think a piece of merchandise is crap, I won't buy it. I'll spend my money on the great film, or the quality souvenir, and leave the dreck alone. And if the other is destined to be made anyway, I guess I can be thankful that all the people who DO see the cruddy movies and buy the cheap stuff are adding to the bottom line and pushing up the value of my stock.

:earsboy:

[RickinNYC]

Originally posted by MasterGracy
But people like RickInNYC will never get it because they simply just don't care, which is the very reason I could care less what they say about me. Let them remain in their ocean of ignorance (which, by strange coincidence of time and space, is the very definition of NYC). No skin off my nose. They simply need their diapers changed.

If you do indeed feel that it's no skin off your nose or that you could "care less", why get up in a twist and resort to the most common denominator of insulting people, i.e. pointed remarks at New Yorkers in general, or changing diapers, etc...?

And this is where I smile, shake my head and walk away. I won't discuss anything with anyone when all they can resort to is purposeless insults or inflaming commentary. Especially if they can't support their counterpoint with facts without making stabbing remarks. It's the electronic version of "niener niener niener."

Enjoy the one sided debate folks. I'm out.

[JeffH]

I was just correcting factual errors in M. JeffH's statements
There was no factual errors in my statements regarding live entertainment. When Disney adds dozens of live shows/acts (from LM, B&tB to the British Invasion, Nova Era (gone), the living statues, the chair guy, the Castle show) and a few go away...they've still added dozens of live shows/acts.
For the record, I personally hated the elimination of Hunchback, Nova Era, the Diamond Horseshow Revue, and the old animation tour...but life goes on, and we now have Goofy's Jamboree, Mission: Space, Wishes, Philharmagic and the new animation tour...some better some worse.

And I pointed out the fact that MK was just a clone of DL to demonstrate that there wasn't anything amazingly clever or original about WDW in the old days...it was great and still is, but so is the new stuff (except Imagination)...as far as I'm concerned, they should clone everything at WDW (DisneySeas).

And as far as quality goes, Disney stands behind everything they sell and if you have ANY problem with something, they will replace it on the spot...for example:
I lost a just bought metal Aladdin lamp off the boat in IASM and got it replaced in Agraba.
We've had several night trinkets/spinners run down (batteries), and had CMs replace them without even having to ask and one Winnie the Pooh spinner was several months old.
One time I reported a non-Disney sprayer-fan left, and they gave me a voucher to get a free Disney sprayer-fan!!!

[MasterGracy]

Aww, poor RickinNYC, the innocent victim. You're right, you said nothing insulting or derogatory and I'm just ganging up on you and being a big ol' meany.

Ya, right. In the first place, I wasn't even talking to you, but you had to go shooting your mouth off because you didn't like what I said to someone else, which had nothing to do with you. You're welcome to comment on anything I post to someone, but if you're going to get nasty about something that doesn't concern you, don't be so surprised if you get a similar response to your snotty attitude. If I was being insulting to you, I suppose I'm just a pawn of Karma. What goes around comes around. I'm sure you'll get over it.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by MasterGracy
Aww, poor RickinNYC, the innocent victim. You're right, you said nothing insulting or derogatory and I'm just ganging up on you and being a big ol' meany.
He didn't, you did. Rick merely said that you should keep your "estimation of a Disney fan to yourself". He didn't say anything negative, while on the other hand you said that New Yorkers have attitude problems and that certain people are babies because they need there diapers changed. It is sad that you can't see that.

What is ever more sad is that you continue to last out at those that don't support you or your views. That does nothing to help support your cause except to turn people against it and you. Just because someone disagrees with you on how the Disney company is being run doesn't make them any less a fan then you are.

[Zurg]

Seems like the original poster's only contributions to conversation here is in this thread. 8 pages of SPAM.

[Devil's Advocate]

Um, if supporting this boycott means embracing these attitudes, I think I'm going to Disney. Anyone care to join me? :earseek: :earsboy: :earsgirl: :crazy:

[MasterGracy]

HAUNTED MANSION FAN,

Who are you or RickinNYC to tell anyone to keep their opinions to themselves. In case you didn't know it but this is a debate board for the express purpose of STATING OUR OPINIONS. I complimented someone for being what I thought to be a good Disney fan. Where does anyone get off telling me not to say that?! If you don't like what we're discussing here then why do you keep coming to this thread? Use your brains.

[Chuck S]

Ummm...Master Gracy, this is the Rumors and News board, NOT the debate board. The thread was moved on the first day, remember?

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by MasterGracy
Who are you or RickinNYC to tell anyone to keep their opinions to themselves. In case you didn't know it but this is a debate board for the express purpose of STATING OUR OPINIONS. I complimented someone for being what I thought to be a good Disney fan. Having an "opinion" and complimenting someone on being a Disney fan seem to be opposites with you as far as this thread is concerned. Lashing out at those that don't agree with you and calling them non-fans ISN'T an opinion, it is an attack.

If you don't like what we're discussing here then why do you keep coming to this thread? I could say the same thing to you! You don't seem to like that everyone isn't grabbing their torches and pitchforks and rallying at your farm before heading off to storm the castle. :rolleyes:

Use your brains. And back to the playground we go......

[Goofyposter]

Ummm...Master Gracy, this is the Rumors and News board, NOT the debate board. The thread was moved on the first day, remember?

Well...Master G....I'm not sure when things were moved from one board to another...but....I'm "afraid" Chuck is right!

[Dznefreek]

Well, we are halfway through January and the only news I have heard about the boycott is here. Guess it never caught on. Good concept+poor execution=no change.

[Sarangel]

OK gang. This discussion is over.

You should all know by now that the rules state that there will be no personal attacks on posters. You can disagree all you like, but don't get personal.

Sarangel