car seat question, high backed booster for 3 year olds?

[BevS97]

Hi,
here in the UK, we have a number of high backed booster seats that are sold as suitable from 9months
this one
http://www.britax.co.uk/Catalogue_2003/fabrics/cp_bc_prod.jpg
is very popular for travelling as it's really lightweight. Now, personally, I wouldn't put a 9 month baby in one, but I know lots of 3 year olds who use them.

My question is I have read that Florida law states that a child 3 and under must be in a carseat, and children of 4 or 5 must be in a booster seat. Would this carseat be ok for a 3 year old, or are they required to have the integral straps?

bev

[jel0511]

Bev - "Car seat" implies that the car seat MUST have it's own harness system, separate from the seat belt which you use to secure it. I'd bring a car seat with a harness system to be safe. Everytime I see baby products from the UK, I'm simply amazed. There seems to be such innovative stuff comng from over there!!!

[Familymoon]

It might also depend on your child's weight. My daughter has been in a belt-positioning highback booster since age 3 (her Eddie Bauer seat is approved for 30lbs and 3 years with the seatbelt)....BUT - it is *not* allowed on the plane (no shoulder belt). So, yes, you can use it in the rental car if it is something you use at home by all means...however, you cannot bring it on the plane (you'd have to check it).

[tjmw2727]

Originally posted by BevS97
Hi,
here in the UK, we have a number of high backed booster seats that are sold as suitable from 9months
this one
http://www.britax.co.uk/Catalogue_2003/fabrics/cp_bc_prod.jpg
is very popular for travelling as it's really lightweight. Now, personally, I wouldn't put a 9 month baby in one, but I know lots of 3 year olds who use them.

My question is I have read that Florida law states that a child 3 and under must be in a carseat, and children of 4 or 5 must be in a booster seat. Would this carseat be ok for a 3 year old, or are they required to have the integral straps?

bev

Actually, children over 3 are only requred to be in a seatbelt to meet FL Law. That said I still use a booster for my 6yo and that exceeds FL law so its fine if that's what you use at home. As others have mentioned to use on the aircraft it must have an integrated harness and and FAA approved sticker on the back.

From the FL website -

"All children 5 years of age or younger must be properly restrained no matter where they are sitting in the vehicle. Children through age 3 must be secured in a separate carrier or a vehicle manufacturer's integrated child safety seat. For children aged 4 through 5 years, a separate carrier, an integrated child safety seat, or a safety belt may be used. (FL Statute 316.613)."

TJ

[BevS97]

Children through age 3 must be secured in a separate carrier

i read that to mean that children age 3 must be in a carseat - I really do wish they would use clearer language in these things.

the airline thing is not such a big issue, as british airlines are not at all keen on carseats on board, one of the areas in which we are not at all innovative, imho.

Bev

[jel0511]

Children through age 3 must be secured in a separate carrier or a vehicle manufacturer's integrated child safety seat. Bev - I also agree with you, the key word is THROUGH. Which means that the child has to be 4 before being place in a booster seat, according to FL law. Unforunately, legalese is very difficult to interpret (unless you're used to it like me) and especially if you're from the other side of the Atlantic!!! I hope you have a safe trip!

[Familymoon]

I still say that the high back belt positioning boosters are fine. Like I said - we have one for our three year old and I am up to date on the carseat laws and safety standards. You just cannot use them before 30lbs. With it being an international seat, they follow the rules on your seat (bring your manual) and if you trust it for your child at home, you should trust it on vacation. Besides, it's a Britax! Nothing better.

[jel0511]

Originally posted by Familymoon
I still say that the high back belt positioning boosters are fine. Like I said - we have one for our three year old and I am up to date on the carseat laws and safety standards. You just cannot use them before 30lbs. With it being an international seat, they follow the rules on your seat (bring your manual) and if you trust it for your child at home, you should trust it on vacation. Besides, it's a Britax! Nothing better. I agree with you that you can use some boosters with a seatbelt, as that is what is recommended by the manufacturers. The issue here is that each state has different laws regarding car seats for children. Here in NJ, they require us to keep a child in a car seat with a 5 point harness until age 4 and 40lbs and a booster seat until age 8 and 80 lbs. Where you live, placing your DD in a booster seat with a seat belt might be appropriate, but here in NJ, it would be illegal (regardless of manufacturer recommendations), as it is in FL.

[Familymoon]

hm - I always had the impression that the states follow the manufacturer's guidelines based on each seat.

[tjmw2727]

<<Children through age 3 must be secured in a separate carrier or a vehicle manufacturer's integrated child safety seat.>>

I see nothing about 5 point harness in the Florida law - the OP's safety seat should be fine. If she is happy with her child in this seat and dosen't intent to use it on the aircraft there is no reason she should not use it. From what I have read so far this seat is not "against the law" in Florida.

TJ

[jel0511]

No, they don't each state has it's own guidelines regarding car seat usage. The manufacturers suggest what would be safe usage for the seats, but ultimately it's up to the individual states to set forth guidelines. Some states don't even have regulations in place for car seats, some have more stringent requirements (than the manufacturer), NJ is probably the strictest I know of. It's all for the safety of chldren, regardless of manufacturer suggestions. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that children 4 and under 40 pounds be placed in a 5 point harness car seat, not a belt positioning booster (regardless of high back or no back). Now, that is in direct confliction with the manufacturer recommendations on the booster seat you own, and NJ adheres to that rule. See, it gets sticky and it's best to find out what your particular state, or any state you plan on traveling to, guidelines. Since it can vary widely state to state. For instance, we live in NJ, which has very strict car seat laws, my SIL lives in PA, which does not (only under 3 had to be restrained in a car seat). She will have to adhere to the NJ car seat laws when coming to us (a 35 minute drive) just to be safe. Now the car seat laws are considered a secondary offense, meaning you can't be pulled over for just that, but still there.

Actually tjmw2727, it is. I have several family members who live in FL full-time and we visit them quite often. To be sure I was in compliance, I first asked my cousin what the law was and that was her interpretation. I then called the local police department to where my MIL lives, and they also explained that this is the law as well. I believe the police on this one, since they would be the ones who'd enforce the law.

[mudnuri]

I was sitting here trying to remember when our DD's went from a 5 point harness to a booster seat....It was 40lbs...I believe they were each approx 4 years old at that time.

Funny this post is here, we just bought new boosters- the Turbo Booster...I recommend this for anyone who lives in a state with the same laws as Vermont (and now I know NJ)... 8 years old and 80 lbs. This turbo booster is more than adequate for that. I do know that the 4 booster seats we just smashed (2 in DH truck, 2 in my car)....were only rated for 40-60 lbs...with the oldest DD hitting 56-57 on the scale, we had to do something. IT has an adjustable head support- that slides up or down depending on child height...2 cup holders that slide in and out....adjustable arm rests, belt positioners for the shoulder strap...They are/were just on "roll back" at Walmart.com for about $46.00 we paid 58.00 at Sears..

here's a picture if this works..
http://www.gracobaby.com/assets/images/product/8493BRG_t.jpg

Our law did not change until this past January- and MANY people who live her do not know it...MANY police officers also are not aware of it. I have spoken to a few in my own Town regarding the law, and I knew more than they did.

A bit off topic- but if any of you are planning a trip to Vermont, or New Jersey- and have a child 8 and under and 80 lbs and under- invest in a booster!....It's a VERY hefty ticket here, and comes with 4 points on your driver's license....and a bit different than NJ, you CAN and WILL be pulled over for this offense, Vermont has a program "click it or ticket"....and child seats are part of this police enforcement program..

Brandy

[BevS97]

So is the general consensus that the seat is NOT ok?

I am not actually asking for myself, my dd's are 6 (and she uses a high back booster) and 3 months, and she obviously uses an infant carrier. I have been asked by another friend who is travelling to FL and I don't want to give her inaccurate information.

I guess the crux of the matter is whether a separate carrier means it has to have straps or not?

Bev

[jel0511]

Bev - From what I've been told, this seat would not be o.k. for a 3 year old. I'd bring a seat with a 5 point harness, that way you'll know you'll be in compliance with the current laws.

mudnuri - that's the booster seat I actually have for my DD 5 1/2. It is a great booster seat. I was going to buy the Britax Booster, but this one was MUCH cheaper and was basically identical and had the cup holders. It rates the same as the Britax Booster in safety testing, so it truly is a great seat!!!!

[tw1nsmom]

Unless you're investing in a carseat that can hold a 40 plus pound child in its 5 point restraint (these are very very expensive...over $300) you should not put a larger child in a 5 point harness meant to hold a 40 pound or less child. Our twins are slightly over 3 1/2 and both weigh over 40 pounds. I was told by both the manufacturer and a police officer that specialized in car seat safety that it would be dangerous to continue using the 5 point harness. These are high quality car seats that cost more than $120 each. In the event of an accident, the mechanism that holds the straps to the seat can potentially break if a larger child is placed in them. We switched them over to boosters and I feel my children are much safer in them. No matter what the law is (we are following the law in NY) you have to do what is safe for your child. Squeezing a larger child into a 5 point harness is not the safest choice.

[kfeuer]

Originally posted by tw1nsmom
Unless you're investing in a carseat that can hold a 40 plus pound child in its 5 point restraint (these are very very expensive...over $300) you should not put a larger child in a 5 point harness meant to hold a 40 pound or less child. Our twins are slightly over 3 1/2 and both weigh over 40 pounds. I was told by both the manufacturer and a police officer that specialized in car seat safety that it would be dangerous to continue using the 5 point harness. These are high quality car seats that cost more than $120 each. In the event of an accident, the mechanism that holds the straps to the seat can potentially break if a larger child is placed in them. We switched them over to boosters and I feel my children are much safer in them. No matter what the law is (we are following the law in NY) you have to do what is safe for your child. Squeezing a larger child into a 5 point harness is not the safest choice.

Just wanted to add that I just bought the Britax Marathon which is a 5-point harness seat that is safe up to 65 pounds. I paid $187 for it (granted, I got a great deal, they are generally in the low $200's online). Sorry if it seems like I'm splitting hairs, but I wanted to clarify that there are safe 5-point harness seats out there that cost a lot less then you mentioned.

[Familymoon]

I also realized an issue we had. Our daughter is tall, and you cannot continue to use the harness belts on a child who is taller than the highest slats. (which is why, I believe, we had to shop for the highback 30lbs+ booster) -it's been a long time.

[dj2]

Effective 1/1/04, Illinois is changing its laws to have children in an appropriate restraint until age 8. I didn't know if this was a national or a state thing, so I've been surfing around tonight and learning, because I didn't know whether or not I'd need to bring DD7's booster seat with us to FL in January. The current Passporter newsletter has a pretty comprehensive discussion of child seats, and that's where I learned that I wouldn't be able to use her booster on the airplane. http://www.passporterboards.com/ubb/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news&Number=406687

Yep, each state gets to decide. I found this web site tonight which others might like to see. It's not current for IL's new law-to-be, so it's possible that there might be other discrepancies, but it's a good starting point.
http://www.inventiveparent.com/state-laws.htm

My thinking is that if you're driving to WDW, you've got to be correct for each state you'll pass through....

BTW: DD's friends often comment about her seat, since not many 2nd graders use one (they will in January!). But we learned from a AAA spoonsored safety check (specially trained inspectors) that she's safest continuing to use a booster until she's about 80 lbs. and until her knees bend at the "right" angle when sitting on the back seat (in other words 90 degrees straight down while her tush is all the way back). That's where I also learned that she's too big to use the 5-point harness on the booster. I thought we were being safer, but, as the previous poster mentioned, it's not strong enough to hold her after 40 lbs. and would fail.

One last thing while I'm on a roll (sorry for being so long). If you've got a booster in your car and no child in it at the time (do we ever get to go places alone?), make sure to buckle it in anyway. Otherwise, it will become a heavy projectile in a crash.
princess:

[sarahsmom73]

I mentioneed in another post that we recently purchased the Simpson Pro- Am booster seat. It is a booster with a 5 point harness up to 40lbs.. At 40 lbs it is a high back with 3 levels to use the shouleder lap belt depending on the child's size up to 80 lbs... Our dd is 32 lbs but is very tall (off the charts for an almost 28 month old.. ). It is FAA approved when using the 5 point harness which was the big stipulation I had when buying it as we are headed to WDW in April. In fact we are flying out of Burlington, VT... I do like that after she out grows the 5 point there are 3 levels you can adjust the shoulder lap belt with.. Sorry so long!

[jel0511]

Unforunately with the new laws, some of the booster seats that have 5 point harnesses up to 40 lbs, will not work for some states that have laws requiring children under 4 to stay in a 5 point harness. A lot of children who are under 4 weigh more than 40 lbs, and those won't work. I have a Britax Marathon for my DS, andit's approved to be used with the 5 pont harness up to 65 lbs. Unforunately, these seats tha are approved for the higher weight limits for children are very expensive, usually around $200 or more. By the way, the Marathon is FAA approved.

[NotUrsula]

It's not Bev's original question, but there's a misconception floating through this thread regarding enforcement in states other than the one where your vehicle is registered.

In a situation where you are driving your own personal vehicle through a state where the laws are more restrictive than your own, you will NOT be ticketed for failing to obey that state's stricter carseat laws in terms of equipment. You would be let off with a warning if you were stopped at all. Special local safety/emissions equipment laws regarding privately owned automobiles are only really enforceable when the vehicle is registered in that state, or at least regularly driven in that state. (Now, moving violations are another matter; for moving violations, local laws apply in all circumstances.)

You would be in trouble if you had an 11 mo old standing up in the back seat, obviously, because that violates the law in EVERY US state. But if your car is registered in PA and you happen to drive it through NJ, the NJ hwy. patrol is not going to ticket you just for failing to comply with the specific stricter standard that applies to vehicles registered in NJ. No state will do that, as the ticket won't hold up in court, and issuing unenforceable tickets is a total waste of time and resources.

As to Bev's question, the answer is that the seat *is* acceptable under current Florida law. There is currently no mention of a 5-pt. harness in the law at all, regardless of the age of the child.
http://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=CH0316/Sec613.HTM

[tjmw2727]

I think the sticky point here is "appropriate child safety seat" I haven't seen any mention of 3pt or 5 pt harness in any of the state laws.

If I am using my safety seat correctly and my child fits the guidelines of the seat than I think I meet not only my requirements but the "laws" requirements. I believe my 38lb 7yo who exceeds the height maximum of her safety seats 5 pt harness (42") is very safe in the seat as a belt positioning booster. It is rated for 40" and 30-to 60 lbs without the 5 point.

If I drive through Maine or any other state with the new laws I can't imagine being ticketed for using my seat safely and properly, not to mention with a 7yo!

I also can't imagine having to spend upwards of $175 for a new seat to have her in a 5 point to 80 lbs.

To get back to the OP if she has this seat and her 3yo meets the height and weight guidelines to use the seat, it seems from everything I have read (lots) it meets FL law. I believe that's the questions posed. If she already owns this seat and it will meet her needs long term why should she spend $200 for a carseat to be used a week or so on a Florida vacation?


TJ

(edited 'cause I can't spell!)

[camrynmami]

I believe it was Jel0511 who said that "my SIL lives in PA, which does not (only under 3 had to be restrained in a car seat)".

This information is very wrong. A law was passed and became effective 2/21/2003 that now states that: "Children under 4 years of age are required to use a child restraint device. Nonuse is a primary offense. Children 4 to under 8 years of age are required to use a booster seat. It is a secondary offense. The fine is a sliding fine up to $100.00. The money will continue to go into a fund to purchase child safety seats for loaner programs that distribute child safety seats across Pennsylvania. Charges may be dismissed by the District Justice if proof of purchase or loan of a child passenger safety seat/booster seat is introduced into evidence."

PROPER CHILD SAFETY USE CHART

Buckle Everyone. Children Age 12 and Under in Back!

INFANTS: Birth to 1 year AND at least 20 pounds. Infant-only or rear-facing convertible. Rear-facing only. Harness straps at or below the shoulder level. Infants should never travel behind an airbag.

TODDLER: Over 1 year and 20 pounds. Forward-facing Convertible OR any seat equipped with a harness rated to at least 40 pounds. Forward-facing. Harness straps should be at or above the shoulders. Most convertible seats require the harness in the top slot for forward facing. The booster seat assures that the lap portion rides low across the thigh area and the shoulder belt fits snug crossing the chest.


UNDER 4’9” and 80 POUNDS: Over 40 pounds. Ages 4 to 8 years.
Belt-positioning booster seat. Forward-facing. The booster seat assures that the lap portion rides low across the thigh area and the shoulder belt fits snug crossing the chest.
All children 12 years and under should travel in the back seat.
Belt-positioning booster seats MUST be used with lap/shoulder belts.

All children 12 years and under should travel in the back seat.

[jel0511]

Carissa - Thanks for the clarification, I didn't know about the new law that was put into effect in PA (my SIL didn't tell me), I'll be sure that my SIL knows about it. As you all can see, PA's law is the same as NJ's, which requires a child who is under 40 lbs, regardless of age to be in a 5 point harness not a belt positioning booster. FL's law is the same, but their booster requirement "expires" at age 5, not age 8 like the more restrictive states.

[tw1nsmom]

I'm not from PA, but reading what was previously posted :

[Harness straps should be at or above the shoulders. ]

I want to point out that if you have a child that is under 40 pounds, but too tall for a five point harness, then that law appears to state that you should switch to using a booster seat. Being too tall or heavy for a five point harness can be dangerous for a child.

[jel0511]

tw1nsmom - there are 5 point harnesses that are on the market that do go up to even higher then the 40 lbs limit and do have an increase height allowance for them, mainly for children who are over 4 but have yet reached the 40 lbs limit. The Britax Marathon is one, and it's approved for children up to 49 inches tall. That would allow an older child who is under the 40 lbs limit, but is taller to remain in the 5 point harness until over 40 lbs.

[tjmw2727]

I still don't understand where you are finding the "5 point harness" requirment in these laws. Nothing I have read, regarding the laws in my state of MA as well as the state the OP was inquiring about. FL law does not mention a 5 point harness at all.

What about a T sheild, Overhead shield or 3 point harness are they "illegal" to?

For the OP's question the FL law said:

Every operator of a motor vehicle as defined herein, while transporting a child in a motor vehicle operated on the roadways, streets, or highways of this state, shall, if the child is 5 years of age or younger, provide for protection of the child by properly using a crash-tested, federally approved child restraint device.


I still think that the seat in the original post meets FL requirements. Where does it say that a belt positioning booster does not meet the laws requirements?

Here is New Jersey

<<<
New Jersey

1.Every person operating a motor vehicle, other than a school bus, equipped with safety belts who is transporting a child under the age of eight years and weighing less than 80 pounds on roadways, streets or highways of this State, shall secure the child in a child passenger restraint system or booster seat, as described in Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard Number 213, in a rear seat. If there are no rear seats, the child shall be secured in a child passenger restraint system or booster seat, as described in Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard Number 213 . >>

I am 100% for child safety seats, my 7yo is (unfortunately) one of a very few in her class that use one. However recommendations that parents of 5-8yo's who have perfectly safe seats that can be used safely for their children go out and spend another $200 is a bit over the top. I think that the leglislature should slow down a bit if they are going to require an 8yo 80lb person be in a 5 point harness seat that isn't even readily manufactured and available yet.

TJ

[mudnuri]

In a situation where you are driving your own personal vehicle through a state where the laws are more restrictive than your own, you will NOT be ticketed for failing to obey that state's stricter carseat laws in terms of equipment. You would be let off with a warning if you were stopped at all. Special local safety/emissions equipment laws regarding privately owned automobiles are only really enforceable when the vehicle is registered in that state, or at least regularly driven in that state. (Now, moving violations are another matter; for moving violations, local laws apply in all circumstances.)


Your wrong about this at least in Vermont.

The "click it or ticket" program that I mentioned in an early post, is the exact program that will get you not only pulled over, but also with a ticket, and 4 points on your license. There is signage at all entries into vermont with the mandatory seatbelt law....regardless of if the kids law is posted- you will get pulled over and ticketed if your an adult and have not "clicked it"..

On I-91 over the past winter and fall seasons, the Higway Dept has put up the light up signs, normally used for construction that state "click it or ticket"....and trust me,
YOU WILL GET A TICKET!!! and it will stand up in court.

Brandy

[NotUrsula]

"The "click it or ticket" program that I mentioned in an early post, is the exact program that will get you not only pulled over, but also with a ticket, and 4 points on your license. There is signage at all entries into vermont with the mandatory seatbelt law....regardless of if the kids law is posted- you will get pulled over and ticketed if your an adult and have not "clicked it".."

You were not paying attention to what I said. I did not say that persons driving through a state can ignore the seat belt laws. What I said was that they will not currently get ticketed for not having a 5-pt harness on a booster seat. Do you have to buckle the child into a seat restraint? Yes. Do you have to have a carseat if the child is small? Yes. Does it have to be a specific style of carseat? Not if the car isn't registered in that state.

It just isn't practically possible to enforce such a law while such a vast array of carseat styles are still readily available in stores. Troopers can't be responsible for keeping track of the various models of available carseat and estimating the weight/height of every child they see in a vehicle. Are they going to carry a yardstick in the prowler and make every kid get out on the side of the road to be measured? There's a disaster waiting to happen for you. As long as you are using a restraint device, and using it properly in a manner consistent with the mfrs. recommendations, I believe that it is extremely unlikely that any citation would be issued.

It's one thing for an officer to see a small child bopping around loose in a car, but another to be able to tell the child's age/weight at a glance to determine if a 5-pt. harness is required. If the car is local they have some recourse.