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View Full Version : Monorail to Orlando airport / Tampa airport


DHWD
11-19-2003, 06:52 PM
I was wondering if there is any truth to the rumor that the State of Florida and Disney are splitting the cost for a monorail between Orlando International airport and Disney properties. I also heard that there was possibility that a monorail would also go to Tampa airport --- Disney properties.

Peter Pirate
11-19-2003, 08:27 PM
Not a monorail but a bullet train. It was approved by the voters of Florida but is opposed by gov. bush. It is a huge undertaking with lots of controversy. I will be stunned if it ever gets built.
pirate:

Werner Weiss
11-19-2003, 08:49 PM
See "Disney sways state panel to send train to its park"
BY MIKE BRANOM, Associated Press, October 28, 2003

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/state/7119432.htm

mitros
11-19-2003, 09:20 PM
You and I, as Florida residents better hope that they don't build it. We will be paying for it with our tax dollars. Florida residents were tricked into voting for this taxpayer funded plan.

wdwguide
11-19-2003, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by mitros
You and I, as Florida residents better hope that they don't build it. We will be paying for it with our tax dollars. Florida residents were tricked into voting for this taxpayer funded plan.

I wish they'd let me pay some tax dollars in this state so that they'd stop making all these budget cuts at the Universities. it's damn near impossible to get research funding these days. That's what happens when you try to run an economy based on Mickey Mouse I guess.

DancingBear
11-20-2003, 07:26 AM
Originally posted by mitros
Florida residents were tricked into voting for this taxpayer funded plan.Gee, between this, accidentally voting for Pat Buchanan and such, why do we ever let those folks in FL vote for anything?

jtbdas
11-20-2003, 07:43 AM
Originally posted by DancingBear
Gee, between this, accidentally voting for Pat Buchanan and such, why do we ever let those folks in FL vote for anything?

Its all about the dimpled chad, just the chad!!!!!

Is that what I voted for????

:crazy:

JimB.
11-20-2003, 08:19 AM
This thing is a freakin' white elephant on steroids.

It STILL does not have a price tag.

It will inevitably have less riders than projected (by probably 70-80%).

And yes, the taxpayers of Florida, along with our out-of-state visitors, will be paying for it f-o-r-e-v-e-r. It will n-e-v-e-r pay for itself. Never. Ever.

Hopefully it will never rise out of the swamps.

DancingBear
11-20-2003, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by JimB.
And yes, the taxpayers of Florida, along with our out-of-state visitors, will be paying for it f-o-r-e-v-e-r. It will n-e-v-e-r pay for itself. Never. Ever.I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but does a new highway, other than a toll road, ever pay for itself?

WebmasterCricket
11-20-2003, 10:57 AM
Wouldn't it be cheaper just to move the airport? :)

KNWVIKING
11-20-2003, 10:59 AM
**"I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but does a new highway, other than a toll road, ever pay for itself?"**

Toll roads eventually pay for themselves,but have you ever seen a toll road- once it's paid for- stop being a toll road ? I never have. That would mean laying off hundreds of people. So even though a toll road pays for itself, we NEVER stop paying for it.

Douglas Dubh
11-20-2003, 12:12 PM
I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but does a new highway, other than a toll road, ever pay for itself?
Yes. Highways are paid for by gas taxes in most states, and by the federal government. In fact, gas taxes often generate more than are spent on roadways, and are used to fund bicycle paths and mass transit, or are diverted to general funds. New highways increase productivity, and therefore increase incomes, resulting in more revenues to government.

DVCDAVE
11-20-2003, 12:50 PM
Toll roads eventually pay for themselves,but have you ever seen a toll road- once it's paid for- stop being a toll road ? I never have. That would mean laying off hundreds of people. So even though a toll road pays for itself, we NEVER stop paying for it.


YES !!!! The Peoples' Republic of Conn. removed the tolls over 10 years ago. Anyone who ever traveled I-95 or the Merritt Pwkwy remembers them well, and the traffic jams, and pollution they caused.

Tolls are nothing but double taxation anyway, as you already pay for the roads through your gasoline and diesel fuel taxes, battery and tire excise taxes, vehicle registration taxes, and driver's liscense fees.

All Aboard
11-20-2003, 01:27 PM
Jacksonville did it too. It was the late 1980's if I recall correctly, eliminated the tolls on the bridges. I believe a mayor ran on a platform of "if the public has paid for them, why should they keep paying for them?"

As for the bullet train, like Mr. Pirate, I doubt it will happen soon but it may eventually. I am hopeful that it does not.

Consider the budget for the Miami Metrorail system - $10 million in revenue, $61 million in expense.

I am already paying for one transit system that I don't use, I'd sure hate to pay for another.

footnote - I was not tricked, I was careful to vote against it.

DC7800
11-20-2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by DancingBear
I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but does a new highway, other than a toll road, ever pay for itself?

All forms of transportation - road, rail, air, etc. - are subsidized by our tax dollars. It makes little difference if the money comes from a dedicated trust fund, such as the gas tax which suports our highways, income or sales taxes, user fees, or whatever. The final cost will remain the same. No passenger rail system in the world makes money, or even breaks even before subsidy. But that really isn't the point, for the Florida train or any other rail project, since no other transportation mode covers its own costs either.

An efficient and effective transportation system makes use of all three modes of transport. While there is no doubt that central Florida is deserving of a dramatically improved rail system, this "bullet train" project may not be the solution. Rather than such a speedy - and expensive - totally new train, an incremental approach might work better. People are just not used to taking the train between Orlando (airport) and WDW/Tampa; better to get a conventional (79 mph) service established and then improve it in stages.

Finally, there's Bombardier. I have more confidence in Michael Eisner's creativity and skill (which is nearly zero) than I do in Bombardier to design and build a reliable high-speed train (the Acela being an unreliable piece of junk).

mitros
11-20-2003, 08:47 PM
I was also "not tricked" into voting for it, but an awfull lot of folks here in Florida were!

Snowgod
11-21-2003, 09:21 AM
How was anyone tricked into voting? I always believed that is my obligation to inform myself as to the issues.:smooth:

raidermatt
11-21-2003, 12:51 PM
It does look like Disney got its way here...

If I remember correctly, the preferred plan was to merely have WDW be one of the stops, but Disney threatened to not allow a WDW station unless they were the only stop.

Without a WDW station, it doesn't seem the line would have a prayer of generating the needed revenue.

One logisitical question... should the train actually be built, I certainly would consider using it instead of the shuttle services, but has there been any discussion on how luggage would work? Would we need to stand at a platform with all of our "stuff" (considerable for us as our stays are usually about 2 weeks, and we bring golf clubs), then shove it all on?

Maybe that type of detail hasn't even been looked at, but just curious.

Thanks...

Peter Pirate
11-21-2003, 02:47 PM
Matt, the riders will be forced to ride the train and the luggage will be left at the terminal for seperate transport where it will actually be thrown into a big room and divided up between airport and train personnel...Note: Don't bring your Callaway Golf Clubs...
pirate:

raidermatt
11-21-2003, 03:31 PM
Hmmm... the train may not work for us after all... We'll see. It is airport personnel that handle the clubs (not Callaway's by the way, but I'm still not anxious to be forced into replacing them), so maybe...

Again, we'll see... if it ever actually gets built.

mitros
11-21-2003, 06:14 PM
The millionare industrialist that wanted the train actually paid for ads telling people that the train would pay for itself. As it turns out, it is going to be paid for with a lot of taxpayer money. Take a look at what happened down here with the dimpled and pregnant chads and that should tell you how many people here in Florida are not real bright. Present company excepted of course.....:p

doubletrouble_vb
11-21-2003, 06:51 PM
Can't the people of Florida vote to undo the expensive damage that has been done? Of course I'd like to have the train in place but my 2 rides per year won't go far in paying for it.

manning
11-21-2003, 09:20 PM
Toll roads eventually pay for themselves,but have you ever seen a toll road- once it's paid for- stop being a toll road ? I never have. That would mean laying off hundreds of people. So even though a toll road pays for itself, we NEVER stop paying for it.

I-65 just south of Louisville was a toll road. It got paid off sometime in the 70's.

Douglas Dubh
11-21-2003, 10:45 PM
If I remember correctly, the preferred plan was to merely have WDW be one of the stops, but Disney threatened to not allow a WDW station unless they were the only stop.
I don't think that's quite right, Matt. I'm pretty sure the ultimate plan is for the train to run from Orlando to Tampa. Universal and the Convention Center wanted the route to dog-leg between the airport and WDW, while Disney insisted on a more direct route.

seashoreCM
11-22-2003, 06:07 AM
>>> how luggage would work?

Have you ever flew into a city and used the subway instead of a limo or shuttle to get to your destination? (I have, a lot.)

If so baggage handling for the new Orlando to Tampa train will probably work the same way. You just carry it on board.

I think the train would run more efficiently with everyone carrying on baggage as opposed to having a baggage car.

Then at the Disney stop there will be shuttles like Mears'.

Disney hints:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/disney.htm

Oh yes, if you have flown into Orlando you already experienced a train ride, from the gate to the airport main terminal.

Mr D
11-22-2003, 09:56 AM
Disney's plan is to immediately hold onto those coming into Orlando, keep them away from SW, USF/IOA and any places of lodging other than inside the par.

Of course the best deal is to build an airport (enlarge the current one) to handle mid sized jets like 737, 757 etc, a Disney terminal, a Disney baggage claim, Disney airport shuttle.

They could even use the 3 letter airport code "WDW"

YoHo
11-24-2003, 04:10 PM
2 thoughts

1: doug, you like I live in Oregon. How can you know so much about how highways and Government work when our State itself doesn't understand? ;)

2: About the Aceala. As a train buff, Everything I've heard is that its problems have as much to do with the aging and unreliable tracksystem of the NorthEast Corridor as with the trainsets themselves. That is an Amtrak Budget problem. You would think they'd front some money to fix their only profitable route, but hey, they're a government agency, what do you expect.





As for the Idea of a bullet train. I agree make it a conventional 79MPH train service first. The track is already there. I have a similar issue with Portland Or. Which overruled a local referendum blocking expansion the the light rail system and is going to spend Taxpayer dollars on it anyway. Yet Portland has conventional track throughout the entire metro area. They could have spent fewer dollars on a conventional system.

DancingBear
11-24-2003, 04:17 PM
My understanding is that Acela runs mostly on other company's (not Amtrak's) tracks, so the deficiencies in that track are not entirely an Amtrak budget problem.

YoHo
11-24-2003, 07:09 PM
Not true, Amtrak owns all the electrified Track in the North East corridor. It is the only mainline track they own in the entire country. Which makes the lack of upgrades even more perplexing.

rangebob
11-26-2003, 10:15 AM
Doug your statement is incorrect. Disney did leverage the battle and said if we aren't the only stop on the track we don't want it to come over here. They even went on to say that they would offer free shuttle service from the airport to Disney if it did the proposed stops at the convention center and the Universal area and then to Disney. Yes you are correct in stating that ultimate goal is to connect Orlando and Tampa but disney pulled their weight and won.

As for the voters being tricked the pro light rail people used shady publications to sway the vote their way. The main things that I saw and thought about was the Metro Rail in Miami and train service that they have in Broward county are both working over budget. I did vote against the light rail system when it came to vote. Bush saw the light and is trying to put it back on the ballet to repeal the vote.

DancingBear
11-26-2003, 10:24 AM
Just how is Doug's statement incorrect? He said

Universal and the Convention Center wanted the route to dog-leg between the airport and WDW, while Disney insisted on a more direct route.

ChairborneRangr
11-29-2003, 05:39 PM
Even if this plan stinks and gets repealed, I hope some plan goes through eventually. I have been to Florida for a number of reasons... Vacations, conferences, training, etc. When I am vacationing in WDW I want to get there fast. The amount of time it takes to get to the resort from the time wheels hit the tarmack at MCO is WAY too long. It takes me less time to get from COlorado Springs to a hotel in Manhatten than it does to get from C/S to a resort at WDW. That is just wrong.

If I could step off my plane transfer over to the WDW "concourse" and grab an Elevated lightrail to the TTC with no stops, I'd pay double what I pay for shuttles etc.

That goes double if I can check bags through to my final destination and have them show up in my room, and be able to check them at the station at the TTC on the way home.

Douglas Dubh
11-30-2003, 10:48 PM
doug, you like I live in Oregon. How can you know so much about how highways and Government work when our State itself doesn't understand?
I grew up in California, which, up until the second Brown administration, had the best freeway system in the nation. Between 1990 and 1997 I worked for a road building contractor, and in 1993 I married a Caltrans employee. In 1998 I went to work as a consultant on a Caltrans project. So I've talked to a lot of different people about transportation systems and funds. I only moved to Oregon in 2001.
Just how is Doug's statement incorrect?
Thanks, DB. I was wondering the same thing myself.