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View Full Version : Brother Bear: Lying Reviews and The Lying Liars who Write Them


Peter Pirate
11-02-2003, 07:40 PM
Just back from Brother Bear and I think...Wow! This was a very solid movie quite unlike usual Disney fare and a lot different than Atlantis, Treasure Planet & Lilo & Stitch.

Much criticisim has been placed on the simitlarities between BB & LK and I have to say that other than one or two very minor details I didn't see it. Sure there was a stampede scene, but it was necessary in a formulative way and yes Koda sings into a touching scene ala Simba and the heavens and what they hold do come into play but really the similarities are slight.

The music of Phil Collins has been much debated as well and personally I think it blended beautifully and helped to move the story along (as it should).

All four in our family laughed out loud many, many times at the clever one liners (more than most Disney movies) and was surprised at the tears we all shed (sensitive to family & friendship issues, I guess).

Visually this movie was stunning! The Florida group gets another big "way to go"!! I hope this goes over big and we won't be seeing the end to the much, warmer and visually appealing 2D drawing.

The theatre was mostly full with LOTS of young children who sang along with the main song and repeated the "Ko-Da" line with Koda. The theatre filled with resounding applause at the conclusion.

Brother Bear, if judged on its merits and not seen through any anti-disney bias has to be reviewed glowingly, IMO...

Note: The thread title is intended to be satirical.
pirate:

mmapwright
11-02-2003, 08:12 PM
We had a great time at this movie today. I couldd not believe it when the theater in unison said "Ko-Da." The moose were tops. I especially liked when the Rick Moranis moose wanted the wheat, hops, and malted barley combination. Did anyone stay till the VERY end of the credits?

year2late
11-02-2003, 08:16 PM
We were impressed by the movie as well. Yes, it reminded me a little of Lion King, but so what.

The entire audience was captivated...even the younger members of the audience that were obviously frightened at some of the scarier parts remained to enjoy the remainder of the movie.

Thumbs up!!!

wdwguide
11-02-2003, 08:39 PM
*Pet Peeve Alert*

Why do people keep calling it "2D" (vs. "3D") animation? Walt would be spinning in his grave after all that work he did on the multiplane camera to give traditional animation a feeling a depth. It maybe computerized now, but they still use the same principle. CGI animation may allow some more fluid camera moves, but when it comes down it it's doesn't have any more or less dimensions than any other movie that you don't wear polarized glasses to see. Now Mickey's PhilharMagic or It's Tough to be a Bug, that's 3D animation.

*Now resuming regular programming*

I am glad to hear so many people here like the movie, and hope it does very well. But lots of people here liked Emperor's New Groove and Treasure Planet as well, and those movies utterly failed at the box office (and failed to impress me). I am not questioning your judgment, I just do not think that the opinions expressed on these boards are representative of the general public. Neither are mine - Tron, Atlantis and the Black Cauldron rank among my favorite Disney films ever.

Peter Pirate
11-02-2003, 09:27 PM
guide, from now on I shall attempt to be more accurate by referring to the old form animation as HDA (hand drawn animation)...

I admit that this is only my take and although I was correct on recent successes like L&S & POC, I utterly missed the allure of Shrek and I thought (still think) Treasure Planet was pretty darn good (certainly a few notches beter than Atlantis although the box office doesn't reflect that). But I believe there is a lot of bias in the critical arena against Disney and I think this may be reflected in the reviews of Brother Bear. If I'm wrong and America hates it and it's a box office bomb, I'll admit it...Heck, I'm still admitting to missing Shrek by about 100 light years!

mmapwright, I'm so glad to hear someone else got a kick out the McKenzie Brothers "going out for a beer", eh? That was killer!

As year2late mentioned, I don't think there is a thing wrong of being vaugly reminiscent of another movie but the reporting of blatent LK rip-offs are just plain wrong.pirate:

wdwguide
11-02-2003, 09:48 PM
I misjudged the appeal of Shrek as well... I still don't understand it...

In any case, I am not planning on seeing BB in the theater, but I may just have to look into getting the DVD if these positive opinions keep coming in and the numbers at the box office reflect that it has an appeal that most of the early reviewers missed. I like CGI animation for the most part, but I feel that it doesn't hold up very well in the long term. I am not sure if BB is made of the material that will be remembered 50 years from now, but any HDA success now is crucial to prevent the traditional style from going the way of the dodo, at least in the medium term.

Planogirl
11-03-2003, 12:24 AM
There's nothing wrong with a bit of formula when it comes to these movies. After all why change what works?

I don't see the anti-Disney bias myself. Weren't the critics quite kind to Lilo & Stitch? I agree with wdwguide about the bias here too. Of course, we're biased, at least I am and I'll continue to defend Pocahantas forever. ;)

HB2K
11-03-2003, 06:00 AM
Pirate-

I agree that the similarities were few and far between...but isn't Disney the one who tried to push this (the moose in the commercial saying this is just like Lion King...just with different characters?)

I liked, not loved, the movie. I think it was done well and we'll have to see if it will have legs going into competition (Looney Toons, Haunted Mansion, etc). We'll see.

DancingBear
11-03-2003, 06:32 AM
HB2K--That moose thing, that was a JOKE.

Shrek---now that's a derivative movie! Just watched it for the 100th time this week with my 3yo son (okay, that's a bit of exaggeration, but he sure wants to watch the dragon in the castle scene over and over and over...) and they stole bits from all sorts of fairy tales, Pinocchio, Dumbo, Sleeping Beauty. Sheez, couldn't these guys come up with something original?

Okay, that preceding paragraph is a joke, too.

Peter Pirate
11-03-2003, 07:39 AM
BB may not be the next LK but I'm concerned that too many people (around here and critics) expect every effort to hit this level. Sure, it's nice to strive but there is nothing wrong with a good, solid movie hitting its mark either, is there?

Also, there is that 'striving point' attitude that Disney should always somehow strive to give us something new and unpredictable...Fine sentiment but Treasure Planet was all of those things but we (the masses/fans on the whole) didn't like the effort. Damned if they do, damned if they don't?pirate:

WDWHound
11-03-2003, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Peter Pirate
BB may not be the next LK but I'm concerned that too many people (around here and critics) expect every effort to hit this level. Sure, it's nice to strive but there is nothing wrong with a good, solid movie hitting its mark either, is there?

Also, there is that 'striving point' attitude that Disney should always somehow strive to give us something new and unpredictable...Fine sentiment but Treasure Planet was all of those things but we (the masses/fans on the whole) didn't like the effort. Damned if they do, damned if they don't?pirate:
But Treasure Planet was not all those things in my mind. In fact, it suffered from many of the problems Brother bear does (though Brother Bear is a better movie). Both movies are really beautiful, both movies had predictacle plots (of course, Teasure Planet's plot was already well known, so that not really their fault) and both movies had characters I didn't care about most of the time. Its hard to describe, but both movies seemed to be lacking heart. Disney has proved that they can still successful strive for quality. Lilo and Stich would be the most recent example. They may have trying for that with Brother Bear, but I feel they missed the mark.

As I said in my review that I posted in a seprate thread, Brother Bear is an OK movie, but I was hoping for more from it. However I will say that it is a step forwards from Atlantis or Treasure Planet.

Evil Princess
11-03-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by wdwguide
*Pet Peeve Alert*

Why do people keep calling it "2D" (vs. "3D") animation? Walt would be spinning in his grave after all that work he did on the multiplane camera to give traditional animation a feeling a depth. It maybe computerized now, but they still use the same principle. CGI animation may allow some more fluid camera moves, but when it comes down it it's doesn't have any more or less dimensions than any other movie that you don't wear polarized glasses to see. Now Mickey's PhilharMagic or It's Tough to be a Bug, that's 3D animation.


You are correct, 3D animation would be something like It's Tough to be a Bug. And I agree with you, "3D" animation like Toy Story should not be called that, it is 2D animation that is computer generated and very realistic.

However, I don't think that Walt would be spinning in his grave after perfecting the multiplane camera and calling it 2D. Multiplane or not, it just gives a FEELING of depth, and is therefore still two dimensions :)

Sorry, I'm an art major who just had all this drilled into my head ;)

AllisonG
11-03-2003, 01:59 PM
I have to say that I loved BB. We saw it Saturday afternoon and everyone in my party fell in love.
Now I heard all of the comments before I went and I wasn't expecting too much. I assumed it would be too much like LK and I wasn't too excited.
But being a native American fan and a wilderness lover I just fell head over heels in love with this movie.
The characters were great, the soundtrack was outstanding and the animation was unbelieveable.
Can you tell I like it a little bit?

and Yes, we stayed until the very end of the credits and it was all so cute. We can't wait to go and see it again!:hyper:

Prince Eric1
11-04-2003, 10:21 AM
I think that the problem is that Disney films are now being held to a higher standard than those of other companies. That being said, I hope BB is good because we are taking a group of 6 year olds there Saturday for a birthday party and the reviews have been so mixed.

Planogirl
11-04-2003, 10:54 AM
Disney films were at a higher standard than other studios, at least I think so. Beauty & the Beast, the Lion King and some of the others really set the later standard and now Disney seems to be having trouble meeting their own standard. Again like the parks, other studios are coming closer too.

JMHO.

Peter Pirate
11-04-2003, 11:08 AM
Just because Disney movies have/are/will be/could be made to higher standards than the rest doesn't mean they should be judged from a different vantage point, IMO. I would think it practically impossible to expect each offering to be greater than the next. It is great to strive for this but how often will/can the truly GREAT offering actually come along?
pirate:

Buzz2001
11-04-2003, 04:45 PM
I suggest you see it in the theater. It was a great movie. I went in expecting an average movie after reading all the expect reviews here but came out saying it was an awesome movie. My 10 yr old DD and her friend where laughing through the whole thing. They loved it. Make sure to watch the credits too.

YoHo
11-04-2003, 06:08 PM
As I see it, the biggst issue isn't whether a Movie is as good as another one per se, it's how much it costs and traditionally animated films are stupid expensive (you can blame whomever you find fashonable for the large bump in amimator Salaries)




http://64.91.241.62/vbulletin/images/smilies/yoho.gif

Sure, Atlantis and TP aren't the creme de la Creme, but movies like Lilo should be considered successes and would be were it not for their crippling price.

Peter Pirate
11-04-2003, 06:35 PM
My Scurvy friend! How nice to have you back.

Very salient points. I did not know that TDA was so much more costly than CGI. Please shed more light, if you please. Also, a question I posed earlier (maybe elsewhere) can CGI be done to resemble handrawn nuances?pirate:

DancingBear
11-04-2003, 09:31 PM
Pirate, see the Wall Street Journal article from 10/23 (not available on-line w/o subscription, unfortunately) for lots of insight into how Disney is working on just those issues.

meeko_33785
11-04-2003, 11:05 PM
Saw Brother Bear and thought it was OK, but not great. I actually liked Groove and Treasure Plannet better personally, but I guess I'm just wierd. I wasn't overly impressed with Lion King when it first came out either, so what do I know. :rolleyes:

YoHo
11-05-2003, 12:53 AM
Without getting into details, the base salary of an Animator went up really high when a certain midget decided to start competing with a certain ogre.
Traditional Animation also requires more Animators with more specialized skill then computer animation (not that computer animation doesn't require skill.)



So, you have a larger cost to make Traditionally animated films which of course means that each film needs to make more money to make a profit.

Now, wih Dreamworks basically saying, goodbye to traditional animation, its possible that salaries for Animators will drop like tech salaries have been, thus making it easier to make a lower budget high quality movie, but that certainly would not apply to Brother Bear

Mouse Ears
11-05-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Evil Princess
You are correct, 3D animation would be something like It's Tough to be a Bug. And I agree with you, "3D" animation like Toy Story should not be called that, it is 2D animation that is computer generated and very realistic.



Just wanted to comment that even Pixar does not strive for perfect realism. As a matter of fact, on the Nemo 'making of' presentation on the DVD, the director, Andrew Stanton, commented that some tests were making the ocean too realistic. They wanted a more colorful, lively, 'sanitized' reef. They also added a progression of darkness and changing color in the water throughout the movie to help advance the mood of the plot.

Anyway, just wanted to point out that the animation is more about the art and the story-telling than reproducing reality. The appeal of animation is that it takes us away from the limitations of reality!

wdw4us2
11-05-2003, 04:05 PM
Many thanks to all of you who gave a "heads up" to stay through the end of the credits. We were the only people to do so, and we really enjoyed Koda's last words.

We just returned from seeing the film, and I enjoyed it much more than I expected to. I guess I'm learning not to listen to reviewers when it comes to traditional animation. It seems as though most of them just don't appreciate traditional animation anymore.

This certainly wasn't the best Disney animated feature I've seen, but it was definitely worth seeing. My kids (ages 9 & 12) really enjoyed it.

Evil Princess
11-06-2003, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by Mouse Ears
Just wanted to comment that even Pixar does not strive for perfect realism. As a matter of fact, on the Nemo 'making of' presentation on the DVD, the director, Andrew Stanton, commented that some tests were making the ocean too realistic. They wanted a more colorful, lively, 'sanitized' reef. They also added a progression of darkness and changing color in the water throughout the movie to help advance the mood of the plot.

Anyway, just wanted to point out that the animation is more about the art and the story-telling than reproducing reality. The appeal of animation is that it takes us away from the limitations of reality!

I said that computer animation was "very realistic", not pure realism. I completely agree with you :) It is still animated and is very much stylized, but in general looks more realistic than traditional animation.

HB2K
11-06-2003, 12:28 PM
HB2K--That moose thing, that was a JOKE.

What makes it funny? Would it be just as funny if the moose said "It's just like Emporer's New Groove...only with different characters...and a different story..."?

Personally I don't think it was some ad-lib that Rick Moranis did. It was a carefully placed product mention...and quite frankly it worked. Disney didn't want people associating Bear with JB2, they wanted it associated with the Lion Kings, et al. And to a large extent it seems like it worked...based on the Box Office.

RustManFan
11-06-2003, 02:38 PM
I went to Brother Bear after work yesterday and was VERY impressed. It was visually stunning! I also really like Treasure Planet but thought that the timing of its release wasn't very good........Phil Collins music is beautiful. I saw little to remind me of Lion King.

HB2K
11-06-2003, 03:26 PM
To be honest I enjoyed Brother Bear as well...and I didn't see a whole lot that made me think "It's Lion King in a different wrapper". I thought the movie was for the most part original and the part about how the two bears were tied together was a shock to me.

The one thing that hits me is the names of the characters. We all know Koda since his name was prominent in the advertising and they renforced it in that scene...but for the life of me I can't remember any of the other characters names!

DancingBear
11-06-2003, 03:33 PM
I haven't even seen the thing, but I know:

Kenai--main character
Sitka--Kenai's slain brother
Rut and Tuke--moose

DISNEYDADINOREGON
11-07-2003, 11:54 AM
I saw it last Saturday and thought it was great. It was an orginal story in my mind. It is about redemption but also about revenge(an eye for an eye), which I do not recall being dealt with before, or at least now so dirrectly as this. The middle brother so consumed with rage changes they way he thinks. I just lost a sister in law in a tragic car accident involving a DUI in Sept. I felt really strongly about this and this movie touched me deeply. She was also a native american from Idaho. I bought the soundtrack the week before and listened to it. The songs are great. All made specifically made for the movie unlike Tarzan. I have always like Phil Collins and Genisis. I am still listening to the songs 2 weeks later. I think we all think and feel differently and some of us are more pesimistic about things. Depending on your life experiences is how you receive and perceive a movie. Some movies touch you more than others. This is a great movie. We were lucky enough to see parts of it made at WDW. I like to listen to what other think about things, but ultimately decide for myself what is worthy. I recommend this movie to who ever will listen. Disney has a had a great year. Creatively and financally Probably the best ever. I always look forward new releases.

DISNEYDADINOREGON
11-07-2003, 11:56 AM
I saw it last Saturday and thought it was great. It was an orginal story in my mind. It is about redemption but also about revenge(an eye for an eye), which I do not recall being dealt with before, or at least not so dirrectly as this. The middle brother so consumed with rage changes they way he thinks. I just lost a sister-in-law in a tragic car accident involving a DUI in Sept. I felt really strongly about this and this movie touched me deeply. She was also a native american from Idaho. I bought the soundtrack the week before and listened to it. The songs are great. All made specifically made for the movie unlike Tarzan. I have always liked Phil Collins and Genisis. I am still listening to the songs 2 weeks later. I think we all think and feel differently and some of us are more pesimistic about things. Depending on your life experiences is how you receive and perceive a movie. Some movies touch you more than others. This is a great movie. We were lucky enough to see parts of it made at WDW. I like to listen to what other think about things, but ultimately decide for myself what is worthy. I recommend this movie to who ever will listen. Disney has a had a great year. Creatively and financally Probably the best ever. I always look forward to new releases.

tammie1424
11-07-2003, 01:02 PM
Would you recommend Brother Bear movie for a 3 and 4 year old? Thanks.

DISNEYDADINOREGON
11-07-2003, 02:36 PM
I think so. It deals with death but so has Bambi, Lion King, Finding Nemo... The music is great and is very kid friendly with Koda and the brother theme. Lots of laughs too. It is rated G.
The animation is specatcualar. I think if you go with a open mind and do not listen to the critics you will like it a LOT! Next up is "Home on the Range" which look very funny and has gotten some really talk going on about it. Animation more in the style of classic Warner Bros 1940's. Roseanne is the voice of one of the cows.

Ron from Michigan
11-09-2003, 10:48 AM
My wife and myself saw it last weekend and just loved it. BB was a great movie, sometimes I think the reviewers must have there heads on backwords or something. This was a really great movie, Disney nows how to make great movies ( well most of the time... ).

JustBob
11-13-2003, 12:48 PM
A beautiful looking movie - sterile feeling, however, and the music is not what I prefer at all.
Pocahontas moved my heart more than BB - and I give the credit to the music.

Disney needs to stop using fading pop singers and begin to once again use tried and true musical theater songwriters, who are highly sensitive to plot and character. I look forward with excitement to Alan Menken's work on Home On The Range.

That all said, as an artist I LOVED the look of the movie.