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View Full Version : Rumors regarding Expedition:Everest track style.


DisneyKidds
10-31-2003, 09:33 AM
Also from Screamscape comes this......................
Expedition Everest: Legend of the Forbidden Mountain - (10/30/03) If the rumors are true, Vekoma (Rock n Roller Coaster) may introduce a new track style to be used on the Everest coaster. The new track may take a nod from other European coaster designers like Intamin & B&M and place the side wheels on the outside of the rails instead of in between the rails, hopefully resulting in a much smoother ride overall.
So all you coaster enthusiasts, tell us what this might mean. Good? Bad? If true would this dispell some of the speculation that Disney will be putting in a new ride using an off the shelf track used on another coaster. New=original...............hopefully it is true.

KNWVIKING
10-31-2003, 12:03 PM
***"If true would this dispell some of the speculation that Disney will be putting in a new ride using an off the shelf track used on another coaster. "***

I love it when people claim Disney is just using an "off the shelf" item, especially when it comes to coasters. Just how many different ways do they think there are to send a vehicle speeding down an iron rail ? Why do they insist Disney try to always reinvent the wheel ?

raidermatt
10-31-2003, 12:13 PM
Why do some proclaim anything Disney does to be a triumph no matter what it is? (Yes that's a question that trivializes every argument made by the supporters of Disney's management. Not very productive...is it?)

Sorry, DK, not trying to hijack your thread.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming:
So all you coaster enthusiasts, tell us what this might mean. Good? Bad?

KNWVIKING
10-31-2003, 12:48 PM
The coaster at Sea World and the Hulk are both very smooth coasters. What type wheels do they employ ? I know SW had a noise issue with people living near the park so they went to a neoprem type wheel.

jlambrig
10-31-2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by KNWVIKING
[BI love it when people claim Disney is just using an "off the shelf" item, especially when it comes to coasters. Just how many different ways do they think there are to send a vehicle speeding down an iron rail ? Why do they insist Disney try to always reinvent the wheel ? [/B]

While I do agree that certain posters seem to relish the opportuntiy to exclaim that everything Disney does needs to be revolution instead of simply evolution, I would like to see this one project being the attempt of the current administration to do something new and different. Like the Matterhorn, which had a totally new track system that shaped coasters for years to come.

I want this to be more than just a great ride but also a statement that Disney is back. Coming up with the radical new ride that everyone stops and says wow is a statement this company needs to make.

As for how many different ways? I am hoping Disney comes up with one more.

HB2K
10-31-2003, 01:34 PM
***"If true would this dispell some of the speculation that Disney will be putting in a new ride using an off the shelf track used on another coaster. "***

I love it when people claim Disney is just using an "off the shelf" item, especially when it comes to coasters. Just how many different ways do they think there are to send a vehicle speeding down an iron rail ? Why do they insist Disney try to always reinvent the wheel ?

"Just what this place needs...someone putting down other posters" (paraphrased) - Jlambrig

Sorry couldn't resist. Or does that quote only work when it suits someone's agenda?

As for the two questions.

I do not consider Big Thunder to be off the shelf. I kind of consider AeroSmith to be off the shelf. I definitly consider Primevil whirl to be off the shelf.

In the past Disney made the ride mechanism (be it roller coaster track, be it a flume river track, etc) fit their idea for an attraction. Now Disney purchases the ride mechanism and makes their idea fit what they just bought...thus the off the shelf moniker.

As for Kidd's question.

The hyper coaster at my local Six Flags which is made by Intamin(Superman Ride of Steel at Six Flags New England) has a similar wheel config and it is probably one of the SMOOTHEST roller coasters I've ever ridden. If Disney can replicate this it would definitly be a bonus...although hardly ground breaking as other well known coaster companies (as reported by Screamscape) have been doing for years.

And Vike...the coasters you refer to are from B&M who are known in the industry to have some of the SMOOTHEST rides around.

Testtrack321
10-31-2003, 05:16 PM
The term 'off-the-shelf' is a term used when a ride is sold that was pre-designed at the factory durring initial testing and design, and finalized before selling to a park.

RnR isn't an off-the-shelf coaster, it was designed specially for Disney, but Vekoma probably found a loop-hole and sold it to Six Flags as Superman.

Primevil Whril IS an off the shelf, since it was bought without special configurations and was designed and finalized before Disney bought it.

As for the new track configuration, this will help with the whole roughness of previous Vekoma coasters. The problem with them is that the wheel assembly hugs the inside of the track, while B&M (did Kraken and Hulk) and Intamin (Cali Screamin) hug the outside. Hugging the outside leads to a smoother ride because the wheels want to take the shortest path, and since they are on the longest path, they hug the rails really tight. When they are in the inside, the wheels want to take the longest path (they just do) and so they move up and down since they don't get a good hugging to the rail, and thus, the ride is rough.

HB2K
10-31-2003, 09:49 PM
RnR isn't an off-the-shelf coaster, it was designed specially for Disney, but Vekoma probably found a loop-hole and sold it to Six Flags as Superman.
I'm not sure which Superman you're comparing it to, but the Superman in my park is an Intamin Hyper and bears no resemblance to RnR.

RnR was not designed to tell a story...a story was designed to make the coaster "kewl". Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the ride but the design of RnR is nothing like BTM...which was a story which made a ride fit into it...not the other way around.

DancingBear
11-01-2003, 10:00 AM
Here's an excerpt from an interview with Imagineer great Tony Baxter about how Splash Mountain came about:

How was the work on Splash Mountain ? Was it interesting to work from a classical Disney movie ?

Yes, it was. The idea for Splash Mountain popped into my head as I was driving to work. Dick Nunis who is the Chairman of DL and WDW had always nagging me, saying: "Why don't we do a water ride ? All the other parks have one." I said: "That is why we are not doing one... Because all the other parks have one, it would seem as if Disney were copying." So that was in the back of my mind. Then, we had an other problem, the area of the park known as Bear Country was not very well attended because it only had the Country Bear Jamboree show. If you took an aerial picture of DL back at the time, only 2% of the people would be in Bear Country, 30% in Tomorrowland, 30% in Fantasyland and 12% in Adventureland. The park did not like that. They said: "We need a big attraction out there." The final element was the impending closure of America Sings. They were going to throw away all those characters that Marc Davis had developed.

So I am driving my car and the idea sparked (just like in Journey into Imagination) and I thought: "I know, we are going to do a water ride to please Dick, using the characters from America Sings. So we save them, and we will do it out in Bear Country so we solve the problem of little attendance in that part of the Park !"

When I arrived at work, I said, "Here is the idea, how do we make it fit in Bear Country ?" We were tossing it around and someone said, "Song of the South looks a lot like America Sings." So we got out some of the original model sheets from Song of the South and I found some characters that were not used in the movie, that I would swear were done by Marc Davis, because they just look like the possums and all the characters that were in America Sings. We knew we only had to add Brer Rabbit, Brer Bear and Brer Fox to make it work. So we added 10 new figures to the 75 existing figures from America Sings. We had a show of 85 figures for the cost of ten.So, sometimes, the "track type" idea may have come first.

Lots of other interesting stuff in this interview:

http://pizarro.net/didier/_private/interviu/baxter.html

HauntedMansionFan
11-01-2003, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by HB2K
I'm not sure which Superman you're comparing it to, but the Superman in my park is an Intamin Hyper and bears no resemblance to RnR.
Superman: The Ride at Six Flags Holland is the same track layout as RnR.

Evil Princess
11-03-2003, 01:39 PM
I love it when people claim Disney is just using an "off the shelf" item, especially when it comes to coasters. Just how many different ways do they think there are to send a vehicle speeding down an iron rail ? Why do they insist Disney try to always reinvent the wheel ?

Us coaster enthusiasts do not insist that Disney try to reinvent the wheel. We insist that Disney takes advantage of the newer technology of rollercoasters (those made by Bolliger and Mabillard or Intamin) and apply their world class theming.

How many ways do I think there are to send a vehicle speeding down an iron rail?
Well, theres:
Flying coaster (laying on your stomach)
Inverted coaster (feet dangling)
Suspended coaster (swinging cars)
Hyper coaster (200 + feet, usually no inversions)
Giga coaster (300 + feet, " ")
Floorless coaster (no floor to the car)
Launched coaster (using electromagnets or some other launch mechanism to propel the car with fast acceleration)

I could go on ;)

The coaster at Sea World and the Hulk are both very smooth coasters. What type wheels do they employ ? I know SW had a noise issue with people living near the
park so they went to a neoprem type wheel.

These are Bolliger and Mabillard designed coasters. The wheels are on the outside, Vekoma's are on the inside. The track design is much different as well, though I don't know if that has anything to do with it. Intamin, also from switzerland (like B&M), has a very different track style as well, and also has the outside wheels.


I'm not sure which Superman you're comparing it to, but the Superman in my park is an Intamin Hyper and bears no resemblance to RnR.

Six Flags enjoys naming coasters in different parks "Superman: (insert different end of name here". The coasters may be similar, or they may be COMPLETELY different. Your Superman is an Intamin Hyper, while my Superman at my home park is a Bolliger and Mabillard flying coaster. It's a Six Flags thing, they're not big on themeing. :)

Back to the OP's question:
So all you coaster enthusiasts, tell us what this might mean. Good? Bad? If true would this dispell some of the speculation that Disney will be putting in a new ride using an off the shelf track used on another coaster. New=original...............hopefully it is true.

I do not think that Disney is creating an off the shelf ride when it comes to Everest. I have to admit, I am upset that they decided to go with Vekoma again. Why?

Vekoma is known throughout the coaster community as the king of clones. The majority of their rides are off the shelf models that you can find at many parks. Have you seen a Boomerang at a few parks? They are made by Vekoma, and they are incredibly generic. Parks usually don't even bother to change them. They are cheap, don't take up much space, and many small parks have them.

Vekoma's are also known for being rough. I have to admit, RnR wasn't terrible, but compared to a B&M or an Intamin, it was no picnic. With manufacturers like B&M and Intamin, I find it hard to believe that Disney goes with Vekoma. For families, I would imagine that a smoother coaster would be better.

B&M coasters are phenominal, they blow me away. Vekoma often lacks the imagination in their designs that B&M posesses. Hopefully with Disney by their side again, and with the new wheel configuration, the ride will be vast improvement from past Vekomas.

airlarry!
11-03-2003, 02:31 PM
I've read debates on this topic on the DIS for literally years.

What I've never seen is someone say WHY Disney always goes with Vekoma over the other two (although Intamin did do Cali Screamin')?

Cost?

Corporate culture?

Safety? Marketing?

Anybody?

Evil Princess
11-03-2003, 04:14 PM
Why safety though? I see alot more news reports on Vekoma rides being stuck up side down to to mechanical failure or the like.

I really don't know, I believe it might be cost. Perhaps WDI has a contract with Vekoma???

I wish they explored other companies.

HB2K
11-03-2003, 06:42 PM
I recall reading somewhere that B&M requires too much control over the design of their coasters (although now that Disney outsources everything this may be more palatable today).

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said:

Vekoma is known throughout the coaster community as the king of clones. The majority of their rides are off the shelf models that you can find at many parks. Have you seen a Boomerang at a few parks? They are made by Vekoma, and they are incredibly generic. Parks usually don't even bother to change them. They are cheap, don't take up much space, and many small parks have them.

They're cheap, they like cloning their rides and everyone has them.

Fits Disney's MO to a Tee!

GrimGhost
11-04-2003, 11:16 AM
I'm hoping one of you will know this.
When did Disney begin outsourcing coaster, or any ride technology for that matter??
Or have they always ??

GrimGhost
11-04-2003, 11:24 AM
I'm hoping one can answer this.
When did Disney begin outsourcing coaster, or any ride technology for that matter??
Haven't they always ??
It would seem, It's a question of how involved Disney is with the design ?
And really...who cares.
It's the Disney magic that's added after (hopefully) that's unique!

GrimGhost
11-04-2003, 11:32 AM
I said:
And really...who cares.
It's the Disney magic that's added after (hopefully) that's unique!

I'm not trying to be rude or argue but isn't that what I said?

Evil Princess
11-04-2003, 11:39 AM
Part of the argument is also how much magic is being added. Take Triceritop (sp?) Spin. An off the shelf wild mouse coaster with very little theming.

If Disney teamed up with a great manufacturer and gave it a HUGE dose of Disney Magic, they could make a great ride. Dueling Dragons at IOA combines great storytelling and queue theming with state of the art technology.

When I see a coaster like that, and I KNOW that Disney can theme better, I ask why can't Disney do this?

But actually, this is a different argument all together from the OP's point :)

crusader
11-14-2003, 01:13 PM
This is what they need to install.

http://www.coasterforce.com/parkguides/sixflags_magicmountain/x.shtml

OH YEAH!!!

bretsyboo
11-14-2003, 04:50 PM
To answer the original question of this post, yes the new design is specifically to make both the ride itself, and the transition from forward on one trwck to backward on another-smoother.

How does it do it? Don't ask me, I'd never understand.

It's not so much a brand new system either, as it is a modification of an old one.

Also, Disney, as far as I know has never made their own coaster track, they have always ordered out for them rather picking it out of a catelog or telling whomever they hire specifically what they want.

And yes, primeval whirl was literally picked out of a catelog, anyone can get one of these, I can't remember the company, I'm sure someone can look it up, but it is literally something like #2 Spinning Wild Mouse.

It should be noted that WDI did change it once they got it though, as Primeval Whirl (at least when it was built) became the fastest loading roller coaster of its kind (believe it or not!)

Testtrack321
11-14-2003, 07:46 PM
Disney has very rarely done it's own ride system building. Haunted Mansion was done by Arrow along with Space Mountain. Test Track was *almost* all in house, but GM helped build the car bodies. The difference between an off the shelf and other rides is that Disney comes up with the layout (usually) and gets the company to make custom parts for it. With PW, it was like they opened a catalogue, just like the last poster said, and picked out 'Spinner Coaster #2'.

HauntedMansionFan
11-14-2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by bretsyboo

And yes, primeval whirl was literally picked out of a catelog, anyone can get one of these, I can't remember the company, I'm sure someone can look it up, but it is literally something like #2 Spinning Wild Mouse.

Reverchon is the company that does most of the mouse coasters for every theme park.

crusader
11-15-2003, 09:22 AM
Since "X" is a pipedream let's talk reality.

One can only dream that E:E will incorporate Vekoma's tilt coaster. I'm still trying to get a visual on the track/wheel mechanism to decipher the topic at hand.

This is what we want!

http://www.coasterforce.com/parkguides/discoveryworld/gravity.shtml

JimB.
11-20-2003, 09:27 AM
This is what we want!

Actually, it is probably more appropriate to say this is the coaster YOU want.

Me? ugh.

HB2K
11-20-2003, 09:39 AM
Scoop is correct in his description of "outsourcing".

Disney never built (at least to my knowledge) their rides from scratch all by themselves. But in the past what would happen is Disney would tell the vendor (be it Vekoma, be it Arrow, whomever) what they needed and had the builder supply parts to the Imagineering blue print.

Now adays Disney contacts the ride manufacturer first, then has Imagineering build around the ride provided. This is what I term "outsourcing".

And one last note:

I'm really getting sick of the constant nitpiking of terms used here. I know Scoop is gone, but I for one would rather clarify a term once in a while than have to worry constantly whether it's P.C. to use around here....