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View Full Version : Adventureland in MK to open at 10 a.m. daily beginning Sunday


Mimi Q
09-25-2003, 09:28 AM
Just read this on wdwmagic.com:
Starting Sunday 28th September 2003, Adventureland will open to guests at 10am on almost every day except high attendance days.

wdwguide
09-25-2003, 10:39 AM
Didn't we have something similar just a year or two ago?

DC7800
09-25-2003, 01:40 PM
Yes indeed, we dodged this particular bullet once before. I'd assumed this idea was dead...

Now, why am I afraid this won't be the only previously rumored cutback to again rear its ugly head?

WDWHound
09-25-2003, 02:07 PM
Park hours go down, ticket prices go up. Such a magical experience.

Bob O
09-25-2003, 02:28 PM
Now how will the disney apologists spin this as a benefit to the park goer or that this isnt a reduction???

Kaitysmom
09-25-2003, 02:57 PM
Is this for real?

Walt's Frozen Head
09-25-2003, 03:00 PM
Yes, it's for real.

princessandie77
09-25-2003, 03:54 PM
UGH!!

Captain Hook
09-25-2003, 04:39 PM
Thats just GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!! We cant even make a DVC ressie for the month of Nov. or get a hotel room(with the execption of All Stars not that theres anything wrong with that). And now I read that there cutting hours even more. Please let me put our families hard earned money down on another Disney vacation.

KMovies
09-25-2003, 08:29 PM
Yes it is a cut back ...

Yes it will be a slight inconvience ...

but there is so much of the park to enjoy before 10:00 AM ...

it really isn't that big of a deal.

ArcticWildMan
09-25-2003, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by KMovies
Yes it is a cut back ...

Yes it will be a slight inconvience ...

but there is so much of the park to enjoy before 10:00 AM ...

it really isn't that big of a deal.


Please tell me you are just being sarcastic due to this latest cutback :confused:

Palendat
09-25-2003, 09:29 PM
We are a fmily of 25 going in November, most of us first timers! For months, we have planned on Pirates as being the first ride we ride together!!! It definitely IS a big deal to us that Adventureland won't open until 10:00:(

mudhen
09-25-2003, 10:08 PM
Bad show..........this is plain and simple bad show.

DVC-Landbaron
09-25-2003, 11:02 PM
Well, well, well. Is anyone really surprised?

All in all...

... It's just ...

... Another brick in the wall!!


Well, what will it be this time? Anyone's last straw?

Or are we going to justify and excuse this action?

... Anyone... ? ... Anyone... ? ...Ferris...?

Bob O
09-25-2003, 11:57 PM
I guess i have the apologist's response!!!

Glenn
09-26-2003, 01:21 AM
:( Chip, chip, chip, a little less for the money. I tend to go to adventure land first when I get to the MK. This will take alittle more away from the experience. Open at 9:15 or 9:30 maybe since it does take a little while to get there to save some payroll but 10?. Whats next mm pay toliets, water fountains. This Dec will be my 4th yr in 5(including 12/01)and on and off since mid 80's. With the cutbacks i might skip the next yr or 2 sad to say.The experience is getting less and less.

Kaitysmom
09-26-2003, 08:08 AM
Not impressed...certainly hope that they change their minds about this one.

So, during the "slow" times they will cut hours and cut the attractions open during the cut hours. OK - bad idea. To top it off, during the really busy times when you can't even get near a ride without the long waits, instead of increasing the hours they let you buy another ticket so that you can stay and maybe get on the rides. Next thing you know they will be treating the park like it does on EE days and only have Fantasyland and Tomorrowland open until 10:00. :mad:

JDH
09-26-2003, 01:41 PM
coroporate weasels. Maybe they could save even more money by cutting Eisner's hours?

Captain Hook
09-26-2003, 03:47 PM
Well Landbaron I think this is the last straw, for are family anyway. We love all things Disney like everyonelse on these boards, but when do the cuts end? I know November is booked solid in the hotels and DVC. Why delay the opening of Adventureland? How about Toontown or maybe Tommorowland(they are down to three rides anyway) Or if maybe the hotels are booked solid lets just keep everything open and give the guests a great show!!! We have been to WDW many times and as a member of DVC will return many more times in the future but for now I think we will try the otherside of town. Hello Spongebob Bye BYe Princess

Dznefreek
09-26-2003, 05:14 PM
Remember that catchy little catch-all phrase:
Attraction times and availability are subject to change without notice.

Peter Pirate
09-26-2003, 05:37 PM
Captain Hook, you are certainly free to cross town to the other parks and in fact I urge anyone with half the mind to go ahead and go...It may be exactly what you're looking for. But don't expect those "corporate weasels" to be any different.

KNWVIKING
09-26-2003, 06:01 PM
I would urge everyone to head over to sponge bob land. You will realize anew what IS so great about WDW. Go and look at food prices and portion size.Take carefull note of the restrooms and TP. Observe the CM's (or whatever their title may be) in action. Look at the details.

DVC-Landbaron
09-26-2003, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Dznefreek
Remember that catchy little catch-all phrase:
Attraction times and availability are subject to change without notice.

MY GOD!!! YES!!! OF COURSE!!! I SHOULD HAVE REALIZED!!!

That little sentence makes everything all right!

Whew! And there for a minute I was starting to doubt Disney!!

MelissathePooh
09-26-2003, 07:31 PM
Definitely not what I like to hear. We usually start in Adventureland. Fortunately our next vist over Thanksgiving we plan on hitting Philharmagoc first and hopefully by our next May trip it will be back to normal.

blackshirt
09-26-2003, 09:21 PM
I am just sick to death of all the complaining! Disney is a business. This is a BUSINESS decision. If you don't like it don't go. Personally, I don't get up til ten, so it doesn't affect me. Hey, you are at DISNEY WORLD!!!! The worst vacation day is better than the best day at work. Don't you realize there are starving people in China? Or India, whatever. The MAGIC is still there !!!! Note to self, the prozac is starting to take control. :jester: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

ArcticWildMan
09-26-2003, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by blackshirt
I am just sick to death of all the complaining! Disney is a business. This is a BUSINESS decision. If you don't like it don't go. Personally, I don't get up til ten, so it doesn't affect me. Hey, you are at DISNEY WORLD!!!! The worst vacation day is better than the best day at work. Don't you realize there are starving people in China? Or India, whatever. The MAGIC is still there !!!! Note to self, the prozac is starting to take control. :jester: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

And as a business they are reducing the value of what people pay for. That is one hour less access to part of the Magic Kingdom. How many hundreds (and maybe THOUSANDS) of people will that force into the other parts of the park thus increasing wait lines and general crowded conditions?

Justify it all you want with your rose colored glasses firmly planted on your nose, this is just a sneaky way to save a few more pennys.

Disney knows most people like you will just shrug it off and continue on their merry way. Heck, I bet they could close all the lands down till noon and a lot of people would still be happy just to stare at the park on the other side of the gate. After all, EVERYTHING Disney does is MAGIC, right??? We should feel honored just to be fortunate enough to even see the castle in the distance!!



:smooth:

KNWVIKING
09-26-2003, 09:58 PM
Me thinks blackshirts post was sarcasm. Actually, I'm pretty certain it was.

ArcticWildMan
09-26-2003, 10:00 PM
Yeah, my bad. But he gave me the perfect lead in for my comments :jester:


I lost track of which board this discussion was on. I thought this was the one on the rose colored glasses board (better known as the Theme Park Attractions and Strategy Board) ;)

curtisl
09-27-2003, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by KNWVIKING
I would urge everyone to head over to sponge bob land. You will realize anew what IS so great about WDW. Go and look at food prices and portion size.Take carefull note of the restrooms and TP. Observe the CM's (or whatever their title may be) in action. Look at the details.

We did that during our last visit. We found IOA immaculately clean and all of the CM's extrordinarily polite, friendly and talkative. The food was imaginative and decent. I don't think you can find Green Eggs and Ham and a Dagwood sandwich anywhere else. The place was beautifully themed and imaginative.

What's your point?

DVC-Landbaron
09-27-2003, 01:47 PM
curtisl,

I agree!!

KNWVIKING
09-27-2003, 08:24 PM
Please tell me your last posts were jokes, Right ? If not, never mind. It's not even worth the effort.

Peter Pirate
09-27-2003, 09:02 PM
Viking, you know I'm with you but I don't think they're joking. Many people feel that IOA (especially) has equaled Disney quality. My good friend GCurling has little bad to say about them, although I don't believe he has them on an equal par as of yet.

But in the final analysis, this is good and proper. People are free to choose where they spend their hard earned vacation dollars and I have only the best wishes for the future of USF...

But Baron, I have to ask, will your family member CM be applying to USF anytime soon?;)

KNWVIKING
09-27-2003, 09:11 PM
...I don't think Curtis was joking, but I believe Barons endorsement was just his way of advancing his agenda, wether he actually agrees with Curtis or not. I like US/IOA, matter of fact DW and I have AP's there. They have some great rides. But it ain't Disney.

DVC-Landbaron
09-27-2003, 10:42 PM
OK! There have been a lot of new members here since I first began, and to be honest, I have a really hard time explaining my position. Maybe it’s time to start over and explain yet once again, how someone can VEHEMENTLY disagree with the current business philosophy and still LOVE Disney! Especially the Disney of old. And the philosophical ideals that built the company. (I really don’t know why that is so hard to understand.)

Anyway, those who do not understand, well… they seem to have a nasty habit of pigeonholing some of us, and before you know – WHAM!!! – I become someone who is, “advancing his agenda”, when I didn’t even know I had an agenda!! I just LOVED the way Walt did business! Nothing more and nothing less!!

Now let’s clarify a bit. Is the question –

Is IOA like or better than "Walt’s" Disney?

Or is the question –

Is IOA like or better than Disney®?


If it’s the first question then get ready for a 40 page thread and 1000 word posts tearing apart IOA one green egg at a time!!! But if you want to discuss Disney® vs. IOA, well then, call up Gcurling and tell him the Baron is on his side. IOA IS starting to do things better than Disney®. Or more likely Disney is lowing it’s level to IOA standards. And that’s the whole damned problem, isn’t it!?!?

But Baron, I have to ask, will your family member CM be applying to USF anytime soon?Does she really look like IOA material to you, Peter? (Be careful! Be very careful! I know where you live!!!;))

I like US/IOA, matter of fact DW and I have AP's there. They have some great rides. But it ain't Disney.But why “ain’t it Disney”? Because of all the new and exciting things that Ei$ner has thrown into the place in the ‘Disney Decade’? Or is it because of all the ‘stuff’ Walt packed into it (including the way he trained his CMs)?

Think about it! I mean really think about it. If WDW was just the two parks that Ei$ner built (MGM and AK) wouldn’t you rather spend the day in IOA? I would!!! And I wouldn't think twice about it.

But, then again, maybe that’s just my agenda.

Another Voice
09-27-2003, 11:25 PM
"I don't think Curtis was joking, but I believe Barons endorsement was just his way of advancing his agenda, wether he actually agrees with Curtis or not. "

And everyone was playing so nicely with each. Knew it was too good to last...

Planogirl
09-28-2003, 02:42 AM
I visited Universal for the first time this year as many know. I only did so because my son had been pleading to go for quite a while but I was worried. I was worried because of the comments I'd read on these boards that the place was dirty and dull. Frankly, I expected each Universal employee to look like a biker after some of the posters on this website got done trashing them.

These slams were wrong. Universal was clean, fun, imaginative and the employees were nice to us. And that was BOTH parks not just IOA. Either Universal has changed or I've been misinformed. I hate to assume that people would misinform me so if Universal has changed that means that it's improving. While Disney is going downhill. That worries me! One is improving while the other is going downhill (IMO).

But the most annoying thing is that when things seem wrong at Disney it's always "but it's better than Universal". WHAT IN THE WORLD does Universal have to do with Disney's problems?

And no Viking, I'm not joking.

By the way Baron, I don't know why it would be so bad to be a Universal employee. We met some nice people and some very talented people. But of course, I don't know anything about what goes on behind the scenes there.

Peter Pirate
09-28-2003, 09:16 AM
As you've often pointed out to me PG, our individual experiences are nice but perhaps don't offer much in trends. My daughter (14) has visited USF 3 times in the past 18 months (so things haven't changed) and she laughs when I somethimes mistakingly refer to USF employees as CM's...She says "Dad, they're fast food workers"...generally meaning young kids with an attitude (as we have in our neck of the...Ocean)...

As for comparing the two places, USF & WDW, I think you'll only see me respond to this when someone first makes the statment, "Well, I'm not going back to WDW again. I'm giving IOA my business. They know how to treat customers..."

But still it has to be a fair comparison when so many people, in argument, try to hold USF as a better than Disney-like experience...Don't you think? How else can we (uh-oh, what's a politically correct label I can use?)...How can we Disney acceptors and sometimes lovers of the current Disney (hows that;) ) argue our point without appearing heavy handed?

KMovies
09-28-2003, 09:40 AM
Here is what I don't understand:

Off season hours for Universal Studios closing at 5:30 and 6:00 PM - that is ok IOA at 7:00 or 8:00 - still no complaints

The hours are much better at WDW - but yet hear complaints all the time about MK closing at 6:00 - not getting our moneys worth - one land opens one hour later - outrage.

On a scale from 1 - 10, WDW is probably a 9. People expect a 10 so it is complain, complain, complain.

On a scale from 1 - 10, Universal is probably an 8. People expect a 6 or 7 so it is great, great, great.

If you are not going to go to WDW or MK because 1 land opens 1 hour later then you probably wouldn't have went anyways. Even if that pushes more people to the rest of the park, the first hour is probably the slowest and you probably wouldn't even notice it at all.

KNWVIKING
09-28-2003, 01:46 PM
***"And everyone was playing so nicely with each. Knew it was too good to last..."***

Don't worry, I always play nice...well, most of the time anyway.

Baron, I always take what you say with a grain of salt because I've never seen you acknowledge anything positive that happens at Disney, (don't bother asking me to list positives, you've asked before,I've listed my positives,and you either didn't read my post or just chose to ignore it), and never fail to acknowledge a negative post. I don't doubt that you love Disney and are frustrated by the things you see happening, but IMO you are only looking for the negatives.

"But why ain't it Disney"

We were just there in June. I could go into specific details about rides,food,dirt and CM's, but what would be the point. I know what I saw, I know what I paid, and I know we came away from there saying "it ain't Disney".

On 2nd thought I will point out two things about IOA.

1) I don't recall the name of it, but there is a restaurant built into a mountain. There are walkways,sitting areas outside this "mountain" that lead down to a waterfront area. What could have been a beautiful area looked more like an inner city park in Camden.

2) This isn't so much a "bash" against IOA as it is a "what if this happened at Disney" observation. IOA has a ride- looks pretty cool, a hang glider sorta ride with teradactols(sp)- where an adult must have a child in order to get on it. Any guesses as to how many pages that thread would be if Disney tried doing something like that ?

sters
09-28-2003, 02:54 PM
In my last trip, I was unhappily surprised to learn that Toontown doesn't open until 10, but now ADVENTURELAND as well???? I was just reeling from the knowledge that the Jungle Cruise, one of the most popular and crowded rides, doesn't open until 10, when I had planned on doing Adventureland first... but now the WHOLE LAND??? THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! Maybe there is something to Universal Studios afterall. I hear they treat their guests better, as in front of the line access to their hotel guests. Maybe I'll check them out on my future trips where I dont' feel like I'm being nickle and dimed to death.

KNWVIKING
09-28-2003, 03:32 PM
***"Think about it! I mean really think about it. If WDW was just the two parks that Ei$ner built (MGM and AK) wouldn’t you rather spend the day in IOA? I would!!! And I wouldn't think twice about it. "***

Actually, AK is my favorite park, so the answer is no, I wouldn't rather spend a day at IOA. But that's just me.

Planogirl
09-28-2003, 03:35 PM
I guess that my point is that I suspect that Universal/IOA is improving while WDW isn't. WDW is of course still way ahead but Universal is playing catch up in my opinion. I often believe that some people on the boards tear Universal down more than they should just to make WDW look better. But that shouldn't be necessary. I know that I mention my own experiences too often but they seem so different than what I often read here that I can't believe it sometimes. Besides, KNWViking suggested that someone should take a look at "sponge bob land" and I was just reporting what I saw. Plus I have a tendency to defend the downtrodden anyway and that even includes WDW when necessary. ;)

But even if Universal were to somehow turn into the best resort in the world, that still wouldn't have an effect on WDW's problems. WDW is supposed to be the standard, it's not supposed to be 50% better than somewhere else and then maybe 30% better than somewhere else later on. Comparing the two seems so pointless to me because they're so different.

Mr Pirate, how about Disney fans? I know that I'm one. :)

DVC-Landbaron
09-29-2003, 01:22 AM
Actually, AK is my favorite park, so the answer is no, I wouldn't rather spend a day at IOA. But that's just me.OK! ‘Nuff said!

I was going to stop there. Obviously we will never see eye to eye on Disney. I read the above statement and really wonder what color the sky is in your world. You ignore all my glowing reports about Disney and remember only the negatives. We evidently see things radically different. I really don’t think there’s anything I could possibly say to make you understand the position that I or Matt or AV or Larry or the Frozen One (or anyone else who sees the slide Disney has taken) has on this type of issue.

But still, for old times sake, I will try once again. It comes down to philosophy. And NOTHING they have built lately has been built with the PHILOSOPHY that brought me to Disney in the first place. That wonderful sense of “Give the people everything you can give them”. You know, that quaint little saying that Walt used to use to explain his Business philosophy. Do you think the current regime EVER has that thought in mind?

No!! They are building things, and creating concepts, more in line with Universal or IOA or even Walmart!! Bottom line thinking. Market segments. How much can we get away with? How much do we HAVE to do?

They have turned that Disney ‘TOUCH’, that pixie dust laden “MAGIC”, into a commodity. The same as IOA. I see no difference today. Sometime IOA wins (Spiderman) and sometime WDW wins (Splash, ToT). Who cares!! It ain’t “Walt’s” Disney! It’s Disney®. And that’s the difference!!

I know it’s probably too much to ask, but…

Can you see the difference I’m talking about?

Glenn
09-29-2003, 02:33 AM
I have to agree with the Baron that Disney has lost its old touch. Instead of building a Disney ride they build segment ride to compete with others. I like some thrill rides, tot, splash but when have they really built a Disney ride & im not talking about another show. Ive been going since mid 80s, its still a nice place but the magic of a very special place is growing dimmer.

KNWVIKING
09-29-2003, 09:17 AM
Believe it or not I DO understand the philosophy that you Matt,AV, WFH and others refer to and most of it I actually agree with it to some degree. But. how many Car 3'ers will talk about all the GREAT new rides IOA/US build, but don't give any credit for M:S ? Based on the buzz from McPhilharmagic, from Scoop & posters who have actually seen it, what is your first impression- sight unseen ? Will you take an objective,open minded view of it, or will your distaste for all things ME blind you. If you TRUELY dislike it, no problem.

***" You ignore all my glowing reports about Disney and remember only the negatives. "***

I didn't ignore anything....did I miss a post ? When was your last "State of the Parks" address ? I honestly didn't see it. Give me your top three positives from this year.

AK: Why do you find it hard to believe AK could be someones favorite park ? Even with or without Dinorama.

Another Voice
09-29-2003, 12:53 PM
"Will you take an objective,open minded view of it, or will your distaste for all things ME blind you. "

Because, Mr. Viking, in many of your last posts you simply dismiss anyone's opinion (other than your own) as being baselesss because it driven by blind hatred for Eisner, personal animosity, you-only-see-the-bad, or whatever convinent "you're a bad person, I don't have to listen to you" excuse you can come up with.

That's not playing nice.

DVC-Landbaron
09-29-2003, 01:32 PM
OK. I have a hard enough time keeping up with the limited threads I have going. To get involved in a Disney love-fest, trading pins or comparing snow-globes (oops!) is, in my humble opinion, a total waste of time. That’s why I don’t respond to too many of the “LOOK AT THIS ISOLATED ‘THING’ AND ISN’T IT GREAT!!!” Yep! It’s just wonderful!! But… WHERE’S THE BUTTER!?

In other words, where is the philosophy that should be glaringly apparent in every corporate breath they take!! It shouldn’t be so obscure that it needs to be pointed out on an internet board as a shining, but lone example of the wonderful world!!!

So when I talk about IOA (and I believe this is the first time) I will point to a particular attraction and say, “GOOD GOD!!! EVEN IOA can do this!! WHY ISN’T DISNEY LIGHT-YEARS AHEAD!?!?” They used to be.

Or worse!! With something like Spiderman I lament that Disney was indeed surpassed!! And that’s just plain sad.

I haven’t been to M:S yet. I hoping it ‘exceeds’ my expectations. I fear it won’t from the various accounts I’ve heard. But, we’ll see. Philharmonic the same way. I’m hoping for a decent “D” Ticket. Like Lion King was. Like the Mickey Mouse Review was. I’ll be happy (Hell, I’ll be THRILLED) if that happens. But I’m not jumping up & down because of what a guy like Scoop says!!! Good grieve, give me some credit!!

Now, do you notice that I try my best not to get involved in these types of discussions? I mean the up and coming greatness of Disney!! This is why. It’s too disappointing. And Ei$ner doesn’t have a monopoly on it. My first disappointment came under the Walker/Miller era. That Western thing that shaped up to be only Thunder Mountain. MAN!! What a disappointment! I don’t think I’ve ever gotten over that one! Never mind all of them in-between!

AK: Why do you find it hard to believe AK could be someones favorite park ? Even with or without Dinorama.Because the very concept seems to me to be ‘anti’-Disney. It was conceived for the wrong reasons. It was built for the wrong reasons. It was stopped short for the wrong reasons. And it was added to for the wrong reasons. About the only thing they got right (for the most part) is the theme. And while that’s a lot, it ain’t nearly enough!

And when I hear someone say that they prefer AK over EPCOT or especially the MK, I have to wonder what planet they’re from. I didn’t say that you couldn’t like it at all. But to have it hold a place of significance higher or of greater magnitude or impact than the MK, is totally alien to my way of thinking. The same way that saying IOA is better. I’m sorry, I just don’t understand it at all.

KNWVIKING
09-29-2003, 01:37 PM
***"or whatever convient "you're a bad person, I don't have to listen to you excuse" excuse you can come up with."***

Come on, that a little over the top. Talk about not playing nice.

I will halfway agree with the rest of your post though. I've never met anyone on this board to sit down and have a real discussion with so the only thing I have to base my opinions on individual posters is what I read. We all sorta know what to expect from each other and rarely are we wrong. Baron stated he posted a glowing report of Disney- well I missed it. But I've seen plenty of his posts to the contrary. When you don't feel you're having an open minded discussion with someone, you tend to get a little cynical. Raider is securely seatbelted into Car 3, but his post leave room to negotiate, see another Car's point of view. I don't see that with Baron. ( Note: I'm using Matt and Baron's names as examples, not singling them out as the only cases). Some posters will never accept a logical answer for something that has taken place or will even wait for the facts to be published. They'll simply start with a "look what Disney did now" type of statement. I'm sorry, but I find that annoying.

DisneyKidds
09-29-2003, 01:43 PM
Wow........AV playing the part of the nice police and not matching an Ei$ner hatred slam with a creative new snowglobe obloquy. What is this world coming to............................or perhaps we are just making progress. That would be kEWl ;). Thanks for that AV.

Now Mr. Baron (hey - how you been?)....................
‘Nuff said!
You are more than welcome to this piece of literary genius ;), but allow me to give you a lesson in usage......................It should NEVER be followed by "I WAS going to stop there". Kinda defeats the purpose, don't you think :). 'Nuff said.

In a shallow attempt to stay on topic, I saw it referenced that this new 10 am opening would apply not only to Adventureland, but Toontown as well. While I know that it doesn't matter that the 10 am Adventureland might not affect most people and I agree that Disney shouldn't do it for any reason under any circumstance.................not too many people seemed to have noticed the Toontown 10 am opening that has been in place for quite some time now ;). I know, I know...........chip, chip, chip and slippery slopes and all - of which I agree with. I'll just have to make the most of what is left when I get there after Thanksgiving :smooth:.

raidermatt
09-29-2003, 01:44 PM
AK: Why do you find it hard to believe AK could be someones favorite park ? Even with or without Dinorama. Of course it will be the favorite park of some. With 10's of millions of theme/amusement park attendees in the country, every park is going to have some who call it their favorite.

But what Baron is really asking is not what YOU personally like. Instead, take a step back and look at the big picture... Which parks were built closer to the classic Disney philosophy, MK/Epcot, or MGM/AK? Which parks are responsible for more folks coming to WDW? Epcot has received precious few updates since it was built, and is panned as "boring", yet as of last year, it was STILL outdrawing MGM and AK.

This does not mean MGM/AK are "bad" parks. Its just that they were built under radically different philosophies, and with radically different goals in mind. That doesn't mean every single thing in both parks is "bad".

The point is, that change in philosophy is bad for Disney. Whether that makes them better or worse than the Universals and Six Flags is not the point. Disney is competing with many other destinations other than other parks.

But really, if it means that much to here someone acknowledge that sometimes Disney still makes good stuff, here's a quote from the Baron, the primary target of your criticism:

They have turned that Disney ‘TOUCH’, that pixie dust laden “MAGIC”, into a commodity. The same as IOA. I see no difference today. Sometime IOA wins (Spiderman) and sometime WDW wins (Splash, ToT). Who cares!! It ain’t “Walt’s” Disney! It’s Disney®. And that’s the difference!!
There, he said it! Somtimes WDW wins.

So can we get beyond the "you never acknowledge anything positive Disney does", and instead focus on the true point?

raidermatt
09-29-2003, 01:54 PM
...not too many people seemed to have noticed the Toontown 10 am opening that has been in place for quite some time now.
Good point.

Not sure if this was mentioned or not, but for those who don't want to hit Toontown or Adventureland at 9am (like us... we don't even get to the parks until 10:30 or so), we need to remember that the later openings just put more folks in those areas later in the day, when we ARE there...

DisneyKidds
09-29-2003, 02:09 PM
Now Mr. Raider (how-are-they-gonna-win-a-shouldn't-have-to-comback-game-when-Seabass-is-in-the-slammer-but-they-are-still-better-than-my-sucky-Jets) Matt, don't allow the fact that I should make such a good point cloud the fact that I think that 10 am Toontown opening is wrong. Shouldn't be that way and it very well may have ripple effects. Heck, that Toontown 10 am opening has even affected me personally, but it has still never cast a shadow over a single Disney day we have had. I know, my straw hasn't come as of yet..............but it will take much more than the kind of straws that have been falling to make a day at WDW worse than a day just about anyplace else......for the Kidds clan at least. And right now that is my primary (if not sole) focus. Heck, I could agree with Baron on 100% of his philosophy issues (no - I'm not there yet Baron ;)) and it wouldn't change that. Even he can confirm that because he still gladly drops as much green on Disney (trademark thingie) as he did on Walt's Disney. Ok, ok, not as much...............but really........how much less?

KNWVIKING
09-29-2003, 02:09 PM
Toontown,10;00 am opening, just a simple question, neither defending nor condemming: If the front gates open at 9, and toontown is at the back of the park, does it need to be opened right at 9 ?

AK: Matt, what Baron asked me was would I go to IOA/US instead of AK/MGM. Answer is no. I like MGM better the US and I prefer AK to all the parks.

***" But to have it hold a place of significance higher or of greater magnitude or impact than the MK, is totally alien to my way of thinking."***

I'd understand that statement better if I'd qualified my AK preference by saying MK sucked, but I didn't. If AK is a "10" to me, them MK is 9.5 and MGM/Epcot are 9's. To me, WDW is like bacon. Is there really any bad bacon. Is nothing not better with bacon. To me, AK is just Thick Cut Bacon.

DisneyKidds
09-29-2003, 02:20 PM
If the front gates open at 9, and toontown is at the back of the park, does it need to be opened right at 9 ?
Hate to say it Vike, but this question is a non-starter no matter which side of the issue you are on. I just don't see the relevance. To get to Pirates you hit the hub, turn left, and walk a few minutes thru Adventureland. To get to Toontown you hit the hub, angle right, and walk a few minutes back past the teacups. Thunder and Splash Mountains are probably just as far (if not farther) from the front gates as is Toontown. If it takes you 00:00:52 longer to get to Barnstormer than Pirates I fail to see what difference it makes. Seems to me you are flirting with very dangerous subjective logic.

raidermatt
09-29-2003, 02:41 PM
If the front gates open at 9, and toontown is at the back of the park, does it need to be opened right at 9? On early entry days, folks are already in the park. On other days, certainly people could get to Toontown in no more than 10 or 15 minutes. As DK said, Adventureland is even closer.

And DK, WOW! The Jets must really be getting to you.;)

I didn't mean to imply the TT/AL delayed openings were "the straw" for you, or even a significant straw. Just agreeing with your point, and adding a few comments. Wasn't trying to distract you while painting a "3" on your car. That's Baron's job!;)

mudhen
09-29-2003, 02:54 PM
I think another reason Adventureland opening
at 10:00 strikes a nerve with more people is
that with Pirates, Jungle Cruise, Aladdin, Tiki
Birds, Swiss Family Treehouse....there are more
attractions people are likley to head for first
than in Toontown. I doubt many people have
Goofy's Barnstormer at the top of their list.

Having said that, I also think it's bad show to
open any "land" later than the rest of the park
in general.

In terms of guest experience, Disney seems to be
taking the side of...." I hope visitors don't
notice or don't care and we can save a few bucks"

versus......." How can we bend over backwards
to give our guests the best possible show? ".

Planogirl
09-29-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by mudhen
Having said that, I also think it's bad show to
open any "land" later than the rest of the park
in general.

In terms of guest experience, Disney seems to be
taking the side of...." I hope visitors don't
notice or don't care and we can save a few bucks"

versus......." How can we bend over backwards
to give our guests the best possible show? ".
Nicely put. Short and sweet.

All of this talk of philosophy has me contemplating the newer parks at both places. Based on the "giving the visitors all that we can give them" idea, I think that I know what I've been floundering around trying to say.

Universal, in my opinion, is playing around with this concept. They're not there yet but I see signs of interest in pursuing this. Disney seems to have lost that focus. I haven't seen Mission Space so I don't know if it falls under the "giving the visitors all that we can give them" philosophy but I see a lack in the newer attractions and resorts in general.

Cutting hours is definitely not within the philosophy. It's another "brick in the wall". (Back to that band again!)

KNWVIKING
09-29-2003, 03:46 PM
But simply don't know what it's like back there first thing in the morning- non EE days. I know it's not physically far away, but just that there are so many things to see and do before you get to it, how many people actually make a bee-line to get to Toontown ?

Jets ? Raiders ?? Pu Leez !! How 'bout them Vikings.

Another Voice
09-29-2003, 04:12 PM
"how many people actually make a bee-line to get to Toontown ?"

Ever been there with a six year old who can't wait to see Mickey?

Based on this logic - I propose that 'Mission: Space' not open until 3:00pm. I mean, it's not like anyone really wants to go to Epcot, so people show up late. And the last thing you want to do in the morning is ride a thrill ride ('cause everyone goes to a character breakfast and you know, the mess). So like the morning is totally out. And when it gets near 11:00, that's when people start thinking about lunch and no one wants to get in a long line when you're hungry and there aren't any good restuarants on that side so everyone's going to have to walk a long way and so no one is going to be near the ride at lunchtime anyway so why bothering opening to when there's no one around. And after lunch, well if thought breakfast is bad then no one is really going want to go spinning right after a big old lunch so that means the next couple hours are right out. So I guess that about 3:00pm is the right time to open the ride. But it has to close at six because everyone goes to save their spot for the fireworks.

Gee, you can justify anything as long as you know what everyone else does.

DisneyKidds
09-29-2003, 04:20 PM
Jets ? Raiders ?? Pu Leez !! How 'bout them Vikings.
Sorry, we don't like to talk about teams that are playing good football and exceeding their expectations ;). I was surprised Frerotte performed as well as he did this weekend, and Moss not being hampered by the bad back made a huge difference. I only picked against them yesterday because I figured Dante would be out and Moss would be limited. Dante was out, but I still lost that gamble. With Atlanta next weekend they should be 5-0. Denver will be a test after the bye.

(there, feel better?)

KNWVIKING
09-29-2003, 04:32 PM
***"Ever been there with a six year old who can't wait to see Mickey?"***

Actually no. Hopefully in a few years I'll find out with some grandkids.

***"Gee, you can justify anything as long as you know what everyone else does."***

AV, I'm not trying to justify anything. I simply asked a question about something I don't know. I was actually hoping to hear from a CM that works back there.

DK: Moss was still having back spasmism, he was laying on the sidelines getting his back stretched whenever the defense was on the field. Kinda looked like his first year with the Vikes, Cunningham throwing them long fly balls,Moss out jumping everybody for them. The Vikes ended last year 3-0, started 4-0 ..... Could be on their way to a record 5th Superbowl loss.

PKS44
09-29-2003, 05:31 PM
Mk is the most crowded and it has been nice to have several ways to approach the park with starting on the left or the right or the middle and working your way around...BUT now they are taking out the starting on the Left---and I have always been bothered by the ToonTown later as it does put more people in there at any one time to have it open fewer hours and more people elsewhere at the times it is closed---none of this is a deal breaker-but it detracts from my former feelings at Disney -like the "kiss goodnight" the talking trashcans/drinking fountains/singing on Main Street feeling that wow! they throw in extra stuff wherever you turn feeling and leaves me with a gee-they are really hurting to have to do this feeling...that is sad.

raidermatt
09-29-2003, 08:27 PM
The 49'ers are in disarray... Hopefully the Raiders will get back on track before we play the Vikes in November, cause they do look good right now.

How many people actually make a bee-line to get to Toontown ? But you see Vike, if we are trying to keep Disney on course, and keep it different from the rest, the answer doesn't really matter. Disney was different because they didn't look to save nickels and dimes (relatively speaking) by asking questions like this. To them, the consistency of the product was most important, and when they did make compromises, it was usually out of true financial necessity.

"The philosophy" says you wouldn't want guests to start to wonder what parts of the park would be open when they arrived. Its says that having guests see closed areas is simply bad "Show", and it was a "Show" that Disney was providing. They felt that in the long run, maintaining the consistency of the product was going to make them more successful than compromising that consistency to improve this quarter's margins.

Now, that doesn't mean that nobody in Disney gets this at all, or that they are running the place like a shoelace factory in Thailand... but they are falling short of their own high standards, which is sad, and, in the long run, detrimental to them financially.

KNWVIKING
09-29-2003, 08:43 PM
I agree that closed areas are "bad show" and the right side of my brain agrees with the "philosophy". But the left side of my brain wants to know how many people are actually in ToonTown at 9:15,9:30,9:45 and 10:00 because maybe if I'm forced to make a cut, where will the cut affect the least number of people ?

My heart says keep the lights on till midnite and EE everyday, but the logic in me says otherwise.

PS: Did the NFL banned Geratol at the end of last season ? Your guys are showing some age this year.

DisOrBust
09-30-2003, 12:05 AM
I was just thinking of getting out of Car #3.......:confused:

ohanafamily
09-30-2003, 01:02 AM
Mind If I jump in,

I agree with a lot of what Baron has said, and I am still in car #1.
Matt, It Is bad show plain and simple.

We are all arguing semantics and all agreeing on the major issues.

PlanoGirl you are dead on as well.

One thing I would like to add...I have been to US. I am not a coaster fanatic, but I enjoy them. Spiderman is WAY COOL (when it is working); I have been on it more times when it has a problem than when it works properly.

Bluto's Bilgwater adventure is a whole lot longer than the river ride in AK (where there isn't enough shade). No doubt it was a cost cutting measure to make it a 3 minute ride, not a 5-10 minute ride. My point is if the ride were longer you can pile more boats in, and thus maintain a constant throughput. I have a big problem waiting an hour for a 3 minute ride to cool me off that doesn't do a good job of it.

I have a friend who used to take his family to WDW every year. 2 years ago he went to US/IOA and hasn't gone back to WDW since. The hotels treat him like a king, he says the parks are cleaner, and the CM's don't have attitude problems.

From my experience, the park is very clean. The Employees are very nice. Unless you go during the Fright Nights, they aren't chasing you around in Ski Masks with Chainsaws. They are trying to meet the Disney Standards of old, and why shouldn't they, they have a lot of CM's that go laid off as a cost cutting measure.

My point? Disney is still #1, but with things like later openings of adventureland (and Toon Town) they are showing a gradual lowering of standards. This is bothering all of us.

JMHO
:bounce:

DVC-Landbaron
09-30-2003, 01:47 PM
I agree that closed areas are "bad show" and the right side of my brain agrees with the "philosophy".GREAT!! Then we’re half way home!!!

But the left side of my brain wants to know how many people are actually in ToonTown at 9:15,9:30,9:45 and 10:00Tell your left side, it doesn’t matter! It simply doesn’t matter. Bad SHOW is bad SHOW!! And that cannot happen in Disney! It is basic to the philosophy! But, if that little voice still won’t shut up…

because maybe if I'm forced to make a cut, where will the cut affect the least number of people ?Forced to make a cut!?!? FORCED to make a cut?!?! Ah!! Don’t you see? THAT is the very problem! Once you see that Ei$ner is simply using the parks as a cash cow, it becomes very easy. All the pieces fall into place and you can clearly see where that finger of blame should be pointed.

In the end it doesn’t matter if ABC has rotten ratings, or that the internet venture still isn’t paid off or if attendance is down (which it is NOT) or if the CEO bilked the company out of over three quarters of a billion dollars or even if only two guests visit ToonTown the first hour. The SHOW must go on. And as I said before, bad SHOW is bad SHOW!! All the rest of the ‘left brain’ stuff is just rhetoric and spin to justify, excuse and confuse the single reason why Disney used to be great! The SHOW!!

My heart says keep the lights on till midnite and EE everyday, but the logic in me says otherwise. It’s tough to do, I know! I had a real hard time at first. It seems to fly in the face of logic at times. But that’s just what makes “Walt’s” philosophy so absolutely WONDERFUL!! “GIVE THE PEOPLE EVERYTHING YOU CAN GIVE THEM”!! How magnificent! How anti-corporate!! And how really simple!

So tell your ‘logic’ to shut-up!! Listen to your heart!! It is dead on!!


Scoop:
Gee, Baron. I didn't even realize I had posted in this thread. Glad you took the time to take an unnecessary swipe at someone who isn't even involved in the discussion.You didn’t. And I didn’t bring you in on it. And you left off the best line. The line that had the ‘smiley’ inherent within it. The, “Give me a little credit”.

But, you’re right. I didn’t put one in. And I keep forgetting how overly sensitive you can be. So let me correct it now.

I haven’t been to M:S yet. I hoping it ‘exceeds’ my expectations. I fear it won’t from the various accounts I’ve heard. But, we’ll see. Philharmonic the same way. I’m hoping for a decent “D” Ticket. Like Lion King was. Like the Mickey Mouse Review was. I’ll be happy (Hell, I’ll be THRILLED) if that happens. But I’m not jumping up & down because of what a guy like Scoop says!!! Good grieve, give me some credit!! :) ;)

It’s funny. A thread like this, with so many wonderful ideas, full of business ideals and philosophy and the only thing you decide requires an answer is a misinterpretation of what I considered an OBVIOUS tongue-in-cheek ‘aside’ amongst friends. How about lightening up a bit, eh?

After all, it’d sure help to promote civility around here.

Typical.

KNWVIKING
09-30-2003, 02:25 PM
Baron, the "philosophy" is great. But the mistakes of the past simply cannot be ignored. Disney has debt to pay on GO.Com, Family Channel,sports teams,ABC,etc. They can't simply tell creditors to forget that debt because Walts philosophy was to keep the theme parks pristine, fully staffed, open till midnite,etc. Survival of the company dictates that cash from the parks goes to pay other debt. And selling those other entities off at a huge loss isn't the solution either because that will just add to the debt burden. The only answer I come up with is that they have to ride the storm out. IF the future brightens for all the Disney entities to where they become self sufficiant and ME still milks the parks for every dime, then all my business/logic arguments against the philosophy will evaporate. But until then my logical side can accept CERTAIN cutbacks.

crusader
09-30-2003, 03:19 PM
scoop -

Why not just quote Pirate (way back on page one) and type the word DITTO!

DisneyKidds
09-30-2003, 03:33 PM
Survival of the company dictates that cash from the parks goes to pay other debt.
Sorry Vike, we aren't allowed to factor in the business realities of today given everything that has already transpired. We are supposed to say that it shouldn't have happened the way it did and this is what they should have been doing all along. Of course that and a nickel might get you a cup of coffee ;). That being said, factoring in the business realities of today I still think there has to be a better solution than taking an action that has a direct impact on show and the guest.
.............but it wasn't obvious to me that it was tongue in cheek.
And some people don't like smilies...............but I'm sure they could have helped in this case.

DVC-Landbaron
09-30-2003, 03:35 PM
Baron, the "philosophy" is great.Yeah! It is isn’t it? So pure. So simple! So… so… well… So DISNEY!!

But the mistakes of the past simply cannot be ignored.I agree!! That’s why I’ve got the tar and feathers ready!!

They can't simply tell creditors to forget that debt because Walts philosophy was to keep the theme parks pristine, fully staffed, open till midnite,etc.That is EXACTLY why they have to strictly adhere to the PHILOSOPHY!! It is the ONLY way to insure that there is a future. And that Disney will not slowly (or rather quickly, depending on your point of view) becomes mundane!! Becomes ordinary. Becomes like (yikes and gasp!!) IOA!!! Truly a fate worse than death!

Survival of the company dictates that cash from the parks goes to pay other debt.ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!! Good God! Anyone can solve a problem by throwing money at it!! The trick here is to be creative. Earn that ¾ of billion!! It is NOT a time to withdraw. To cut services to the ONLY division within the conglomerate that can earn that type of cash! It is NOT the time to kill the golden goose, just to save face on those terrible business decisions of the past!!

It IS time to draw more people into the parks! Not with some cheap gimmick or snow-globe parade, but with honest to God VALUE!! You know, like in “Walt’s” philosophy!! And in the mean time, you capture yet another generation of pure Disney NUTS!!!

IF the future brightens for all the Disney entities to where they become self sufficient and ME still milks the parks for every dime, then all my business/logic arguments against the philosophy will evaporate.That’s already happened several times during his eighteen year reign.

Why are you cutting him more slack!?

KMovies
09-30-2003, 06:32 PM
Let's get some facts here:

ABC ratings are down ... however, purchased with ABC was ESPN and all of the cable channels that came with it.

1/3 of Disney profits are from ESPN and the cable channels

1/3 of Disney profits are the theme parks

While we bash ABC ... it was a great decision to purchase it because of everything that came with it. Analysts did say that ESPN was aloen worth the price they paid for ABC/ESPN.

And the quote about if 2 people would be in Toon Town ... then it should be open cause it is bad show. It would be bad show to only have 2 guests in a land because it would look like the park was on the verge of closing. Really, no one would ever consider having the land open for just 2 guests. I'm sure there would be more but they do have guest counts that would back up the decisions made.

Let's just open the park one hour later - wouldn't that solve everyones woes about Adventureland and Toontown opening 1 hour late.

Yes - Disneyworld could be 24/7 - they'd have guests at 4 AM if the park was open. Of course, next year there wouldn't be a resort cause the losses would mount. And the actors at the 4:00 AM Festival of the Lion King show would be really upset performing for a couple of teenagers.

If you paid the bills at Disney ... you might have a different opinion.

crusader
09-30-2003, 08:48 PM
It is NOT a time to withdraw. To cut services to the ONLY division within the conglomerate that can earn that type of cash! It is NOT the time to kill the golden goose, just to save face on those terrible business decisions of the past!!

Very well said.

But this one isn't really death to the golden goose. It makes not one bit of sense to me in terms of saving money.

Now, if they are going to spend that hour working on Frontierland which is in need of a serious overhaul - get rid of the stench at Splash Mountain, fix the attractions, curb the birds and spruce up the place then I say, YES! DO IT! The sooner the better!

raidermatt
09-30-2003, 09:18 PM
And the quote about if 2 people would be in Toon Town ... then it should be open cause it is bad show. It would be bad show to only have 2 guests in a land because it would look like the park was on the verge of closing. I guess its fair to fight hyperbole with hyperbole, but it really doesn't get us anywhere does it?

First, that's not bad Show. The number of guests in attendance does not determine the quality of the "Show", in this context. Yes, if nobody shows up, there's obviously a problem with the appeal (DCA), but that's not bad Show. The "Show" refers to the movie set-like illusion being created, as well as the complete and consistent offering being made to the guests. If that's happening, and nobody is showing up, you need to figure out why it isn't appealing to folks, but closing the area does not improve the Show.

Second, we all know there would be more than 2 people. Yes, the place would not be as crowded as in the early afternoon (when it can be a zoo), but isn't that the whole point? Isn't that why EE exists? Because there are guests who want to visit when the areas are NOT crowded, and heading there during EE or immediately after opening allows them to do that? Similar to later closings, the early hours provide guests with options, instead of attempting to force them into the same itinerary as everyone else. You let the guest make the choice they want to make, and they will be more likely to return in the future, which is better for your business in the long run.

If you paid the bills at Disney ... you might have a different opinion. If you collected the profits at Disney, and wanted to see those profits continue for decades to come, you might have a different opinion as well.

They can't simply tell creditors to forget that debt because Walts philosophy was to keep the theme parks pristine, fully staffed, open till midnite,etc. Survival of the company dictates that cash from the parks goes to pay other debt.
Its one thing to take the profits from the parks to cover mistakes in other areas. That's bad, but its taking it to another level when you change the way you manage the parks because of mistakes made in other areas.

The parks have been successful for a reason, and all those other problems that have had the stock price in the dumper for years do not change that. Problems in other divisions don't change what the guests want from the parks, just as problems at the parks wouldn't change what viewers want from ESPN.

DVC-Landbaron
10-01-2003, 02:37 AM
If you paid the bills at Disney ... you might have a different opinion.You know, every time I hear something like this I really wonder just how totally insane Walt had to have been!! And I wonder how in the world he ever turned a profit, enough of a profit to actually consider building a city, all those years ago. Heck, by this reasoning they shouldn’t have been able to make their first payroll! Do you really think the bills were any less, ratio wise, than they are today?

Or could it be that Walt may have understood something about human nature and the concept of VALUE that seems way too elusive for the current regime to grasp?

Mr. Crusader!! I thought we might hear from you on this one.
Very well said.Thanks!! I try!

But this one isn't really death to the golden goose.No! Certainly not! Not this alone. It is merely one cut (well maybe two cuts) in the game of “Death by a thousand cuts” that this administration is playing. But one swift ax to the neck or a thousands cuts… It’s still a death!

It makes not one bit of sense to me in terms of saving money. Then why are they doing it?

You let the guest make the choice they want to make, and they will be more likely to return in the future, which is better for your business in the long run.Matt!! As always, partner, you are dead on!! And you raise an interesting intangible. Choice. Once again Disney is limiting my choice. They are reducing options. They are taking away my ability to avoid the crowd with my little ones early in the morning. So I am forced to ‘join the herd’ with everyone else. And by my mere presence, making it more crowded than usual for the herd!!

Limiting choices. Reducing options. That’s really what’s it’s all about. They are forcing us to tour Disney “their way”. To fit neatly into a profile. They’ve decided that touring should be counterclockwise. I really don’t know why but that is the unintended consequence. And they decided that little ones don’t need to see Mickey without an hour wait, AFTER 10:00 am!

It used to be that Disney was LOADED with options!! If it was Disney it had options! But lately they’ve been saying, “Options! Options! We don’t need no options! We don’t need to show you no stinkin’ options!!”*

And that just plain SUCKS!!!










* Old movie reference (if read with a Mexican accent)!

bretsyboo
10-01-2003, 05:47 AM
I just don't understand, it's such simple logic to keep it open, such simple logic.

It's a story we all know, but I'll repeat it anyway. Walt once argued against the Park Operating Committee on the subject of spending $350,000 on a Christmas Parade. They argued to Walt that with or without the parade the holidays would draw in the crowds. Walt said, "It'll be worth the investment. If they ever stop coming, it'll cost ten times that much to get them back."

I don't know how many people would never come back because of the decision to close Adv. land for the 9AM hour. I think it's apparent that this decision has angered many people, and I also think that for some it must be the last straw. For some, I'm sure it's not worth the money anymore. I don't know how many, but I do know one thing:

This sure won't help Disney gain a single fan.

"We've got to keep giving them more," Walt said. This isn't giving anything more, this is taking away.

The two predominant arguements seem to be that 1.there wouldn't be anyone at Mickeys toontown at that time of day anyway, and 2.So what? by this arguement Disney should remain open 24/7.

It's just silly thinking.

These arguements are just silly. The first hour of the day is a precious hour. It's an hour where you can do what you want with virtually no wait. You can go to the place that fills you with the most magic and really get your fill without massive crowds swarming around you.

To think that meeting mickey and friends, and SEEING WHERE THEY LIVE isn't the most magical part of a huge percentage of children is just naive. In this 1st hour when the crowds are light kids can spend far longer with the characters then they could at any other time.

I'm not a father so it doesn't have much value to me yet, but I will be someday and I can't imagine any better way of passing on my love of Disney then by letting my kids fulfill their dreams of meeting their heroes and getting to spend some real time with them.

I have a friend who just started in Entertainment. One of her first days she was assigned to be Pluto. On one of her sets a 2 year old girl walked up to Pluto and said "I've been waiting my whole life to meet you." I'm sure that child reveled every second she got to spend with Pluto, and to think that with that extra hour it could have been more than hi, click, bye, next is just sad. Give those kids that hour, and you'll give them a lifetime of memories.

For the record my 1st stop is always adventureland. I'm usually on the 1st jungle cruise boat, I walk the tree when I am fresh and no one else wants to, Pirates is a walk on, if you choose to go on aladdin this is the only time when lines aren't insane, and getting the perfect noncrowded and background noiseless seat in the Enchanted Tiki Room is a must. It's where I always immediatly went to get my Disney fill, and now I can't. And I'm sad.

As for the 24hr. thing Disney obviously has people working their 24 hrs. a day doing both maintenance, custodial, and planning. All of these are essential to preserving the magic for obvious reasons. Of course this really isn't even the point.

When the park is open it should be OPEN. Disney shouldn't be telling guests what they can do, it should be letting them choose what they want to do. Part of giving a guest more more more is the giving part. It's a shame to think that becuase of these closings every other attraction will now have longer lines, while people wanting to enter adventureland will be held back by a rope condemning them from entering while they view a part of the park completely void of guests-something Walt said he never wanted to happen.

You don't sell tickets to a movie, and then show 85% of it. It's not worth the money. You don't open a themed park partially to guests who paid to have it all. Cutting park hours sucks, it does, but cutting land hours is, well, ugly. It looks and feels bad, and that's not how I want Disney to affect me.

ohanafamily
10-01-2003, 09:08 AM
It's a shame to think that becuase of these closings every other attraction will now have longer lines, while people wanting to enter adventureland will be held back by a rope condemning them from entering while they view a part of the park completely void of guests-something Walt said he never wanted to happen.
This is the "Bad Show"

if you choose to go on aladdin this is the only time when lines aren't insane,
Hmmm, I thought this was a Tacky Ride that no one rides :)

Seriously, I think they are trying cutbacks and should be expanding to stay ahead of the competition. If you don't mind me getting nasty, US/IOA is not the destination WDW is, but the parks are kept as clean as Disney used to. They are spending money for thrill rides to attract a segment that Disney has been ignoring and is now starting to go after. They are investing in the newest technology. There are a lot of people who were laid off from Disney, many of them Imagineers, that are imprting their work into IOA/US. Just look at the Dueling Dragons; that was a concept from AK that Disney tabled and when they fired the imagineer in charge...look where it wound up(I don't remember all of the details, but I remember reading this somewhere, please feel free to correct me). Again US isn't Disney, but it seems to me that their direction is to try and do what Disney did of old. You can especially see it in the newer rides at IOA.


:bounce:

Peter Pirate
10-01-2003, 09:26 AM
Ohanafamily, you're seeing different things from USF than others. There is definately no conceeding that USF is cleaner than Disney and their hours are in flux and generally lower than Disney. Further Disney just opened M:S and announced E:E so that USF no longer has a lock on at least attempting to lure this demographic...

As for the hour, I'm with crusader...If they're going to use the hour for maintenance issues then I'm all for it. If it's a cost saving measure...Bad Show (how do you like that Baron?).

KNWVIKING
10-01-2003, 09:33 AM
***"There are a lot of people who were laid off from Disney, many of them Imagineers, that are imprting their work into IOA/US. Just look at the Dueling Dragons; that was a concept from AK that Disney tabled and when they fired the imagineer in charge...look where it wound up(I don't remember all of the details, but I remember reading this somewhere, please feel free to correct me). "***

If this has happened, why hasn't Disney sue'd IOA/US. If the Imagineer, while on Disney's payroll, developed Dragons but Disney decided not to build it, they still own the rights to it.

ohanafamily
10-01-2003, 09:50 AM
Captain Pirate (I think you deserve a promotion), I agree with what you are saying, and I apologize for ranting a little and being unclear. I was trying to make the point that US has Disney Targetted and is trying to use a similar formula to the Disney of old. They don't have it down yet, but they are actively working on it. They are building up while WDW is making cutbacks in areas that may not really matter, but people notice.

As far as crusader's comment, I would be all for it if it was for a rehab, and a temporary measure; was there a reason given for the Hour delay in opening, I thought it was just a cutback.

KNWVIKING, they didn't take the specs, they took the concept and changed it a little. I also recall hearing that WDW considered a lawsuit, but chose not to; evidently it was just different enough.

:bounce:

Oh, BTW, one more thing. I must Clap for the Tag Fairy...
Clap! Clap! Clap!

DVC-Landbaron
10-01-2003, 05:49 PM
If it's a cost saving measure...Bad Show (how do you like that Baron?).I LOVE IT!!!! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Matt!! Dust off that shotgun seat in car #3!! Make room for my first friend on the DIS!!! The Captain Pirate!!!

It's about time!!!

Welcome!!!!







OH MY GOD!!!!:scratchin :confused: :worried: How will we break the news to Scoop!?!?!

twinglefam
10-02-2003, 06:35 AM
>When the park is open it should be OPEN. Disney shouldn't be telling guests what they can do, it should be letting them choose what they want to do. Part of giving a guest more more more is the giving part.


But Disney has always told guests what they can/should do.....keeping us in neat little mouse mazes.....it has always been about control......ever since Walt died......look how his dream for Epcot has been controlled, right into a theme park/trinket store. this is nothing new. Just decide if you'll adhere to it or not. I'm adhering in about 24 hours.

bretsyboo
10-02-2003, 07:31 PM
What exactly is your arguement? Yes Disney has a very modernistic approach to their theme parks...I don't think anyone is arguing that...and even though they have cutback dreams as well as hours when it comes to Epcot and other projects doesn't mean that it's justification to do it now.

And though I obviously will "adhere" and show up to the Magic Kingdom in less than a month doesn't mean that I will adhere to the decision. I don't like it, and I have/will speak out against it.

My point is that this is only a negative for the company. It can only turn people away and steal the magic Disney creates. There isn't any scenario here that makes anyone happier.

So even though I will be showing up at Disney parks I certainly am not just going to accept any decisions like these on the basis that they have done it before or on the basis that they have yet to push me too far a way. It's a step in that direction, albeit a small one, and it won't get past my judgement.

C.Ann
10-02-2003, 11:04 PM
Toontown and Adventureland not open until 10? Swell..

I have a good idea! Why not just keep everyone on Main Street until noon? That way they could FORCE people to shop - and spend oodles of money.. Then once you're allowed to leave Main Street they would have nothing open except the restaurants (where you could spend MORE money) until 1.. Then - and only then - would you be allowed into the lands and onto the rides - until their even earlier closing time which would be 5 p.m..

Sound ridiculous? No more ridiculous than all of the cut-backs we've already seen..

Of course all of this is done for the "enjoyment" of their guests..:rolleyes:

Guess it's time to get out my thank-you notes again.. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths that Disney will go to in order to keep their guests "happy" and coming back for more..........

lenshanem
10-05-2003, 07:39 PM
Wow, long thread and so invovled! I'll jsut say I perosnally think it stinks and is just another lame lame decision. Actually, I think it is plain STUPID.

manning
10-05-2003, 10:54 PM
I am just sick to death of all the complaining! Disney is a business. This is a BUSINESS decision.

I made a pocket book decision. I ain't going!!!


......." How can we bend over backwards


They don't want to bend over backwards! They want YOU to bend over the other way.