$13.50 a Point

[StephenKay]

We need to stick together, brothers and sisters. The people all of them good folks have been getting a very !!!!! good deal from us DVC Owners, why don't we say a carpet 13.50 a point is the normal quote to live in property we!! are paying for. Solidarity,


Stevie KAY
Inverness
Scotland

CBR 98
ASMO 00
OKW 01
VWL 01

[Pete W.]

Everyone's situation is different so it's impossible to come to some sort of universal agreement on rental prices. Someone who knows one year in advance that they can't use some of their points is likely to ask for top dollar, and why not? But someone whose points are in holding will simply want to get something for them and will settle for much less.

Just as the initial decision to rent points is a personal decision made for personal reasons, so should the price of rental points be a personal decision. The market will settle on an average price regardless of what particular individuals think.

[drusba]

Also, if a large group of owners actually got together here and agreed not to rent for less than a set price, they could face the risk of being charged, either in a criminal action or a civil action, of illegal price fixing under state anti-trust laws. Thus, be careful what you ask for.

[RAD]

Originally posted by drusba
Also, if a large group of owners actually got together here and agreed not to rent for less than a set price, they could face the risk of being charged, either in a criminal action or a civil action, of illegal price fixing under state anti-trust laws. Thus, be careful what you ask for.

So the authorities say that gas stations and airlines that all raise and lower their prices at the same time don't viloate anti-trust laws, but a few DVC members that discuss what a fair price for renting points can go to jail. There's something seriously wrong here!;)

[cmark]

I don't think that every DVC member agreeing to set a base price would every be considered a monopoly of the hotel rooms or time share apartments in the Orlando area. Whether you like it or not--we are not the only game in town or even on site! Plus, the proposed price is well below the fee charged by our own club to paying guests!

[drusba]

Unfortunately, it is a possibility. It all has to do with actually comunicating with each other and agreeing on prices. The one thing that those gas providers and airlines don't do (or at least don't create a paper trail to show they did ) is actually communicate with each other about setting prices higher--they can always say there is no evidence to show they did anything other than react to the market, i.e., they learned another company raised prices and they just followed suit without discussing or agreeing with other companies concerning the issue.

A few DVC members agreeing probably does not mean anything as a few have no real control over prices. If many DVC members did so (or at least many who actually rent points), it could be a different issue and these boards create a vehicle for their possibly doing so (and for creating that paper trail showing communications). The scope of the market would be an issue and that may save the day but a local prosecutor under state law could argue that DVC rentals represent a separate and distinct market from the general rental of rooms by companies like Disney. I was involved with a case a number of years ago where several executives from some companies that produced like products had several meetings together at trade shows for which there was a record showing them discussing how they believed the prices were too low and they needed to do something to prop up prices. Not long after these communications, prices of the products went up. It had the appearance of the usual market increase--one raised then others followed suit. The particular companies involved controlled a small minority of the market for the general kinds of products involved but about 50% for the particular product. Each of those executives were charged with price fixing. None had any prior history of illegal conduct. They all went to jail. The lowest sentence was 18 months; the highest was 6 years.

[Bumpy]

I don't think that would happen in this situation! I certainly am not concerned about such a remote possibility. Prices should be higher as they have increased the buy in price. So, for the sake of argument lets just suggest that people raise their prices to rent to offset the current market increase to whatever seems fair to the individual.

[Doctor P]

Got to agree with drusba on this one. I studied industrial organization, including antitrust, extensively wehn I was in graduate school, and the laws against collusion are pretty strict and are vigorously enforced. As drusba noted, it is usually pretty hard to prove collusion (and most who do it are pretty adept at avoiding getting caught) but a written trail on the web and the ability to reach many, many owners on websites like this would be rather useful evidence should someone decide to go after someone for collusion.

[nuthut]

If every owner would take a serious look at what the points cost them to have, they would rent for more than $13.50!!

I don.t think they can claim conspiracy etc. when you are renting at a loss!!!!



Besides you can rent your time on ebay for more than $15 a point!! $600 plus for 40 points.

[baileybrad]

decide how much rental points are going to cost.

[cmark]

The whole concept of antitrust law is whether the conspiring persons had the ability to control the price on the market so as to prevent free markets from happening. DVC points are not the product--its the room/apartment that is the product. All of our points in the DVC combined will have no influence on the Orlando market. As an attorney and author of two law review articles on state anti-trust laws, I feel pretty confident saying that we should not be concerned!

[TrudyZ]

I believe that rates need to be reasonable, because of the loss of flexiblity and the risk involved to the renter. If there is not a signifigant price savings over getting Deluxe accomodations directly through Disney, many people would not rent the points. The question becomes is $10 reasonable?

As a new owner (and former renter) with points to rent myself, I am trying to determine what is the fair market value (to both the owner and the renter). I have to consider that the $10 per point has been the "set" price for quite a long time, as far as I can tell. I would assume that at the time that price was derived, contracts cost less from Disney, resales were a buyer's market, and the total number of years on the contract was greater.

Now, current market conditions dictate that the price I am paying for a contract is much higher through Disney, it's a seller's market for resale contracts; and the total years left on the contract is less.

I think if I did some of the same calculations done in the past to come up with $10 pp as fair market value with today's values, it will be greater than $10 pp. The question then becomes how much higher, and will the market bear it?

[Richyams]

I'm not in this for a business and its been years since I rented any points. $10 more than covers my costs and I think that if we keep it at $10 or less, it will discorouge people from looking at point renting as a business and hurt us all.

Nope, I definitely don't agree. I think $10 is plenty and will serve to help us all by limiting the number of people in the point renting business.

[Silverfriend]

I agree with Richyams. I think to encourage persons to raise the price of the rental will further encourage misuse of the system and hurt the beauty of DVC for all of us. This club was never meant to be used as a money-making venture. Personally, I would like to see rental only done between members of DVC and their family members and close friends. I have rented myself when I have wanted more time at WDW than I could "point afford". I think most of you that are screaming for a higher point rental price might have a different view if you were on the "buying" end of things.

[Joeblack]

This time, I agree with Richhyams. $10/pt is the fair market value and it more than covers member's costs. It can be a good deal for renters, but not always. It is a member's last option when points cannot be used and I see it like that. I will not try to make a profit out of it and nobody should...the market has set the price at around $10 to ensure that.

[cmark]

To us--yes $10 a point covers our investment and out of pocket expenses--but I paid alot less than $75 a point.

To the new members, they will be loosing money at the $10 a point amount. Does that mean that we should raise our renting points -- and thus make a 'profit.' No, but not everyone is breaking even renting points at $10. I am sure that new members would love to see the price go up--so they could break even.

Plus, Disney has increased prices--as dues have also gone up a little from the start. Thus, there should be a increase in the point rental. I have not been around long enough to know if rental prices have increased alot over time. If they have--then the market seems to be working(it's great to be a capitalist). If not, then the $3.50 increase might be justified. We must keep in mind that if the rental price is too high--we will not have the option to rent the points--they will go somewhere else to stay. The same way Disney is slowly learning that increase admissions prices don't lead to increased revenue. (That's why 6 Flags in Atlanta reduced prices this year by $7 a ticket--the more people in the park buying food and stuff the more money they make) But I got off track

[tinkerdorabelle]

As someone who rented points for the very first time, I would never ever have even considered renting points if they were $13.50. I can get many good rates from Disney properties or off site properties and they guarantee me the ability to cancel a couple days before, I have security, etc. Why would I even consider it? NEVER EVER would I rent for that price.
I can get AP rates at times almost 50% off and other discounts. I got Swan for 1/2 price, $150, why should I rent from someone I don't know with no security for $13.50? No way!

[StephenKay]

Thanks for all replies, if nothing else this has provoked discussion and thats what we are all here for.

For those that say we would not rent at 13.50 because they could find better deals on site, go and get those better deals.

Maybe if you bought your points before 97 having paid about $65 per point, then $10 is not to much, but like me who bought points at $ 72 per point $13.50 is not that unreasonable.

I also must say I did never buy to rent but due to military duty and the distance from the north of Scotland to Florida, it did make sense for us earlier this year.

I was unaware of any U.S. laws about monopolies.

Regards
Stevie KAY
Inverness
Scotland


:jester:

[spruce]

It seems that anyone who wishes to price their rental points above $10.00 per point will be undercut by those willing to rent at $10.00.
Is the market really setting the value of a rented point at $10.00 or, are the suppliers renting at $10.00 per point keeping point rental value low?
When some state that they have gotten more then $10.00 per point, and I see what it really costs to rent at WDW for cash, I wonder if $10.00 per point isn't giving away the farm.
Disney keeps raising all their rates from hotels, tickets, food, DVC etc....I've been registered here on the DIS since there were less then 1000 DIS members and point rental prices since then have been $10.00 with the occasional $6-$8 rental. What's wrong with getting more cash for something that has gone up in value?
I have never rented my points but have always felt that $10/pt was a real bargain for deluxe accomodations if rented other then peak season.....spruce

[jcodespoti]

I kind of see both sides to the $10.00 per point arguement. In my opinion it would be illegal to set a price agreed by all of us DVC members (everybody is sue happy these days so don't think nobody would bring a suit against us).
If though somebody wants to rent there points for $10 per point than fine, if they want to rent it out for $50 per point then fine. This is a free market country (with some exceptions) you get the price you want based on what the market will dictate. My 1.5 cents


Joe in CT

[PatrickB]

If there was an example of free market concept this it.

I have rented points from another owner for as little $ 3.50 per point and that included passes to the park. I have rented a reservation to OKW in a 2bedroom during the millenium celebration for $ 24.00 per point. It goes back to what the amount the renter is willing to rent the points for and owner is willing to rent the points.

Interestingly enough there is a current special for DVC owners at a resort in Hawaii through concierge collection for 57 points per night with a 3 night minimum stay for a total of 171 points.

The same resort is offering accomodations for $ 525.00 for the same room and for the same stay.

Thus, the value of your point through this exchange is $ 3.07 per point. Boy, this sounds just like the amount we paid for annual dues. :)

Patrick

[DVCajun]

I had to laugh at the poster who said they would never pay $13.50 a point because there are better deals than that on site. Only if you stay at an All Star resort, and many times not even then! Here's an example: In at least four of the point "seasons" the point per night at OWK is 8-10 points a night (during the week). Try finding a rate of $80 to $100 a night for any luxury resort on site. You simply can't find it. I stayed at Coronado Springs recently and paid $99 a night and only got that rate with a special code. And Coronodo is a moderate resort.

[tinkerdorabelle]

Audrey, here is another example. During June which has the least amount of deals except for holidays, I was able to find HRH for $117 with EC, AKL for $178 with AP, offered Boardwalk for $189 and Swan for $150, all deluxe resorts. DVC renting at that time 11-14 points for studios. The problem also is that there are no guarantees renting points. I did rent out points because I got a good deal per point, otherwise would never have considered it at all. That is my honest 2 cents worth and yes, would have gone elsewhere and you can get the good deals on the top resorts even in hard seasons like now. During the time you suggest, in low season, there are even better deals to be found on all the resorts including the deluxes.

[doubletrouble_vb]

$13.50 per point is probably a fair price to those who would only stay at luxury accomodations on site. The problem, of course, is that in order to rent points out you will usually want to address a larger audience than that.

Would I pay more than $150 a night to stay on site? No I would not. Would I even pay the $150 in a situation where I can't get the money back...not for a Disney vacation that's for sure.

I suspect that circumstances will drive up the per point price over time.

I think you would get a more successful collusion at $11.00 per point rather than $13.50.

P.S. Is anyone so inclined to perform the calucation as to what the price should be given the current price of $75 per point, say $3.50 in maintenance, and with the assumption the owner wants to recoup their purchase price in 10 years? ...I guess casually that is $11 but I'm ignoring the fact that the owner might have a loan.

[DVCajun]

I guess I'm dense, but even a studio in one of our DVC resorts IS a luxury room! Why shouldn't the price reflect that? I'm not really following the logic that we need to attract buyers from every market. I also know that I have rented points in the past and they sold FAST. That's usually an indication that it's a pretty good deal for the buyer. In fact, the renter of my points said as much. She said they usually stayed at All Star resorts, but they wanted to bring a large crowd with them on this trip for a family reunion. She used the points she rented from me to rent 4 studios for a week.

I agree that this is not a money making venture for we DVCers. I certainly didn't join DVC so I could "get my money back" through rentals. However, I value my membership and my resort too much to undervalue them in the rental market. I, for one, will up my rental price if and when I rent my points in the future.

[KNWVIKING]

What bothers me about this thread is it's original intent. In my opinion,the original poster is probably someone who rents on a routine basis and is looking for our support to raise the price. As for collusion- where did the $10.00 price come from,who decided,who agreed- why isn't that figure a collusion issue. I don't rent,I may in the future and if chose to I'll decide what to ask. I may have to drop the price as the ressie date approaches,but that's normal for all business transactions.

[Towncrier]

KNWVIKING wrote:
In my opinion, the original poster is probably someone who rents on a routine basis

If you look up about 7 posts, you will see that StephenKay does not rent points on a routine basis. He was simply questioning the standard $10/point that people seem to charge. Perhaps next time you will read the entire thread before questioning someone's motives.

I don't know where the $10/point value came from. When we needed to unload some points in 1997, we sold them to friends for $5/point. Better that then let them go to waste. We are all free to decide what our points are worth and no one person or group (other than DVC management) will likely be able to change what an individual charges.

BTW - Happy Birthday KNWVIKING

[PamOKW]

Audrey I think the poster is just raising the issue that at some point it's not worthwhile to rent. There is risk involved to the renter and they don't have the flexibility to cancel with no penalty as they do with Disney or any other hotel. They also have to use the Sunday-Thursday routine get low points and this isn't necessarily the best use of one's vacation time. From time to time Disney does offer some pretty decent discounts on DVC accomodations. A week in a Choice Season studio at OKW is 82 points. The current price would be $820 at $13.50 it would be $1,107. The newer price would be about $158/night. Rack rate from Disney is $269 but a 25% discount would bring it to $202 per night or $1,414 (plus tax) for the week. Still a savings but maybe not enough to take a risk renting. Comparing a studio is also pretty comparable to the other deluxe rooms on-site and they may find "deals" that end up being less than renting the studio.

[KNWVIKING]

First,thanx for the birthday greeting,it caught me off guard till I realized what I'd put in my profile.
Second,you're right,I didn't read all the post on the 2nd page and I jumped to a conclusion,but his original post sure sounded to me like he was a heavy renter who was just looking to increase his profit margin.

[Towncrier]

KNWVIKING - You're welcome. I just had a DIS birthday and got lots of well wishes over on the Community Board. I hope that my criticism wasn't too harsh. There seem to have been a lot of harsh words here on the DVC board, so much so that I've stayed pretty much out of the controversy de jour. So when I do visit, I throw gasoline on the flames (ok - maybe kerosene). I haven't yet met StephenKay, but we are planning to get together at OKW on July 23rd. Since he is in Europe, I figured that he might not be able to post a timely reply to your thread, so I stuck my nose where it doesn't belong to defend him. I'm glad that there are no hard feelings. Besides, we Gemini's have to stick together. :)

[DisneyKidds]

I have only rented once for a trip this Nov. I hope it works out ok.

I would not have considered renting at $13.50 per point. Having paid $10 a point I am paying an average of $140 a night for a studio at VWL. Yes, this is a good deal. But at $13.50 it would be almost $190 a night. There are a lot of other options on property that are less than $190 a night - some deluxe, some not. I could have gotten the same room for slightly more than this with my DC discount. I also had ressies for AKL and BC for less. In a lot of cases people are not going to be willing to pay the premium for a deluxe, or they may take a sure ressie for the deluxe at a couple dollars more and may take their money elsewhere.

There is also the uncertainty factor - everyone involved is taking somewhat of a risk and I believe that is reflected in the price.

I don't want to see any members lose money. But in the majority of cases that is probably not the issue. If renting points that wouldn't otherwise be used you are simply getting a return on your sunk cost. The renter gets a good deal. It's a win-win situation.

My dw and I are currently considering purchasing DVC. I've been lurking these boards for a while trying to learn as much as I can, and I thank you all for your knowledge. If we had points we couldn't use or bank we would consider renting them out. If that happened we'd be happy to get the going rate - whatever that may be - and the market will ultimately determine that.

For someone who wants $13.50 a point - advertise them for that and see if you rent them - maybe you'll start a market trend.

Just my 2 cents.

[nuthut]

Renting for 13-15$ a point is no problem. Been doing it for five years. Try ebay, it has returned up to $24 a point to me. Owners who rent for $10 a point are just financing someone elses vacation and it is sure nice of them to do that!!

[dvc1995]

So why do we think we can routinely get $13.50 a point? An offer to rent out points at $9 a point has been posted for quite awhile with no apparent takers.

[TrudyZ]

DVC1995,

I am not sure where you are getting your information--but I believe you are incorrect on your facts.

There was one post for $9 pp that was listed--it is now posted that the points were rented.

I just listed my points for $9 pp (points expire 10/1/01) late last night and had a response for them in less than 24 hours (now working on finding available reservations). Even if I cannot find a suitable reservation for the first person inquiring about them, I expect them to be gone soon.

Just because you see 0 responses on the boards to a rental notice does not mean they are not rented---all of my inquiries were via direct emails.

Trudy

[grumpy-duck]

First, let me say that we just returned from our first use as DVC members and spent some time one afternoon at the pool discussing how we would use our points for the next couple years (if anything we would not be selling any points and would probably be looking to buy some, maybe a lot). Having said that I disagree with richy. It did not sound to me like anyone was trying to make a "business" out of selling points. It seems a stretch to come to that conclusion.

Second, just because something has always been done a certain way ($10/point) does not mean that it is correct any longer - someone could talk until they are blue in the face to me about why the price should stay the same, but prices go up on other services (certainly hotel prices increased each time I went to Disney and stayed on Disney property before joining DVC). As one person said the price to buy into DVC has gone up (twice I believe since we bought just six months ago). For this reason alone we should expect more (this does not mean we will get more, however) when points are sold. If richy has been successful in living the same lifestyle the last few years and has been able to do it without any increased costs I would love to know his secret. Inflation has been moderate, but it has not been zero.

I'm not in favor of making a stand and suggesting that no one sell points for under a certain dollar amount, but am a strong believer in market efficiency. If the market says the price should remain at $10 then so be it. I did not buy into DVC to make money. On the other hand, if the market says the price should be something higher than $10 - who are we to disagree?

Third, I don't understand the comment that we would in some way be hurt if prices were higher than $10 as suggested by richy. How does a change due to market forces in some way harm us?

Lastly, the original poster suggesting $13.50/point obviously wants to get a price higher than $10/point. Nothing wrong with that and he should consider using ebay as suggested above.

Any comments would be welcome.

[Mic]

I have read with interest the points made in this thread, but refrained from commenting until now. I agree, to some extent, with almost every post, as I am sure many people do. I doubt many of us "rent" our points out on a regular basis, and it seems the folks that do are not treated very nicely for whatever reason. I had a terrific experience with a point transfer from another DVC member, and many posters have said the same thing about rentals and tranfers. Why does anyone care what someone does or how much they charge per point? I once offered to rent points at $11 per point because I already had the res. for the exact nights someone needed, and I was going to cancel the res., as we moved our trip up by a month. I am sure someone else could rent for less, but I can't. The same point I was offering for $11 cost me $14.52 this year(yes, I financed...not proud of it, but circumstances left little choice) and would be worth more than $11 to me for my own personal use. I love Disney, and truly wanted to give someone the opportunity to go. As has been pointed out, DVC prices have gone up twice in 6 months, and I don't think the rental fee per point has seen such an increase. Newer members, like me, paid quite a bit more than members who were smart enough to buy in early in the program, so I could see where they may feel that $10 a point is not a fair return. There are many people now selling their interest in DVC for (gasp) more than what they paid for it 5-8 years ago, after benefitting from it during those years to boot, and they are not attacked for doing so. I don't think I should assume that the original poster wanted to drive up the price of point rentals as much as he wanted to point out his observation of the situation. I do not know him personally, but my take on his post was merely his attempt at expressing his opinion to his DVC "family" , and he was misunderstood (as happens in most families). Someone who wanted more per point than the going rate can always turn to ebay, as has been pointed out, and done more than once. The original post will not likely impact the price per point on this board at all. :cool:

[StephenKay]

I am the poster of this question, and only suggested such an increase after I have rented to family in NY (Who are nice people) for 10.50 per point. I had no reason to rent points when I joined in Dec 00 but due to military comitments I rented our first years 222 points because we were at the time unable to find the time for a Disney vacation. I have merely posed the question to stimulate "the points increase buying versus the rental stable 10 bucks a point issue."

I ask this:

As a DVC Member paying annual dues of 600 $ what is the problem of renting to cover costs?

I do not wish to seek a profit, I do wish to remove some of the free loaders who do not wish to join but insist on a deluxe resort at budget accomodation prices.

If you do not wish to rent @ 13.50 then I suggest you should seek either to join DVC and pay the same cost as I do and you share the same amenities as the members.

I did not mean this post to "get out of hand" but it is obvious some people are trying to get something for virtually nothing, when the points cost is spiralling out of hand it is only right to reflect this on to the consumer in some way.


Freedom of speech is our right.



Stevie Kay
Inverness
Scotland

[Tiggeriffic]

I don't see why people on both sides of this issue think other people are trying to coerce them. Either forcing the rental cost higher or that someone is trying to get something for virtually nothing.

In order to rent points you need both parties to agree on the price. If the member renting the points sets the price too high, then they will probably have a difficult time getting someone to rent them. If someone is looking to rent points from a member for an extremely low cost, they will have a difficult time.

I personally expect that the cost to rent points will go up over time. If renting points out at $10 a point was a good deal 2 years ago, then if room prices have gone up by 20%, it would seem that it would still be a good deal if the cost to rent points went up by %20. Some people will find that as the cost to rent points goes too high that they will get a "better" deal by trying for various discounts other ways or by staying at a different hotel. ("Better" here is subjective based on the perceived value to the purchaser.) That is all part of the free market economy.

BTW, I have neither rented my points or rented points from anyone else. However, I may do either in the future, if I perceive that its a fair deal.

[Towncrier]

I think that StephenKay's point is well taken. When points cost $50 each and annual dues were under $3/point, $10 per point was a good deal for both renter and rentee. Now that points are approaching $75 each and annual dues have increased (slightly), it only makes sense that the de facto $10/point rental fee would have to increase to match inflation. But that hasn't happened. I guess that the bottom line is that if you decide to rent your points, it's between you and the person your rent your points to as to how much to charge/pay for points since this is not regulated by DVC.

[DisneyKidds]

I'm sure StephenKay did not intend to imply that all non DVC members who rent points are "free loaders".

We are not DVC members. We have stayed at deluxe, moderate, and value resorts. We havce paid various rates including rack, DC, SOG. We discovered the opportunity to rent DVC points for our Nov trip.

We are like most people who vacation at WDW and look to obtain the most value for our dollar. To that end, we are considering DVC ownership.

People who rent points are simply purchasing something that people have made available. I doubt there is much negotiation over price when this occurs. Someone offered me points at $10. I chose to accept. I did not go out looking for something for nothing. If I was offered points at $11, $12, $13.... I would weigh the cost against other options and reserve whatever gave me the most value for my dollar. In my case $13.50 would not have made sense as I had better deluxe options that would have provided more value for my dollar.

Just had to put my 2 cents in. Bottom line is that the laws of economics and supply and demand will determine what the market price will be for points. Right now it seems to be $10. Will it be more at some point? - probably. When? - who knows. Will I rent again? - depends on this first experience, whether we buy DVC, and if the rental price makes economic sense. I will never, however, be a free loader looking for someone to give me something for nothing.

Now - off my soapbox.

[Doctor P]

Keep in mind that even the $25 increase in the cost per point only averages out to a little over $0.60 over 40 years, and dues have not increased that much over the years. I am not arguing that people should be willing to pay more than $10.00 per point, but the cost based argument (not the only argument, but one that is often made) does not really suggest much of an increase is appropriate. I don't really care one way or another in general, but just want us to make sure we compare "apples to apples."

[Tiggeriffic]

It's not just the cost to the person who is renting out their points that needs to be considered, but also the cost of renting an alternative room. One of the main benefits of buying into DVC is that Disney's rack room rates go up quite a bit each year - I'm not sure about the discounted rates. So, I would think that when a person is trying to decide whether to rent points or go through Disney then the increase to the room rates would probably need to be considered as well.

For example, If one year I can rent points from a member for a room that would cost $2000, but I only pay $1200, I might decide that its a great deal.
Now, if the next year the rate that Disney is charging goes up 10%, that same room would cost $2200. However, if the cost to rent the points went up %10, it would cost $1320. I would actually be saving $880, instead of $800. In other words, I would still be saving 40% by renting the points from a member, but it would be more money that I've saved. (NOTE: I just picked numbers out of the air here. The 40% and 10% are just an example to illustrate the point.)

A completely different way to look at this is this: I joined DVC to pre-pay my vacations. If for some reason I can't use my DVC vacation for a year that doesn't mean that I don't want to be able to take a vacation, but that I may have to do it some other way. So, my vacation may now cost me more because I can't use my points to pay for it. Now maybe that should just be my loss, but I'm sure not everybody looks at it that way.

I just think that there are definitely at least two sides to this situation that need to be considered and that the value of the points will be determined by the two parties involved. I don't think that we need a concerted effort to raise the point rental price. Nor do I think that we need to try to keep them low. The only concern that I have with renting is those people who seem to be in the business of renting out points consistently. However, given the current state of things, I don't think that there is much that we can do about it.

[Doctor P]

Tiggeriffic, I think you have done a darn good job of explaining the issues. A market transaction takes a willing buyer and a willing seller. However, I think the posts indicate that there are still a number of sellers who are willing to rent at $10 per point. Good or bad, this means that there will be a number of buyers who will be able to get their rental at $10 per point. I also like your point about prepaying your vacation and seeking to recover that cost in a rare year where you need to rent the points rather than use them for your vacation. I suspect that rental prices will gradually increase, but not so much as a result of the increasing "costs" of points but rather their increased "value" as a means of securing deluxe lodging.

[one_cat]

There are some other factors involved in these transactions that I think are being missed in this discussion. We rented 132 points in April. Of these points 85 were in a 30 day hold account the rest were set to expire in less than 3 months. I would have loved to hold out for 13.50 per point but didn't feel I could afford to do so. I sold for 8.50 and 10.00 per point. Yes the people who vacationed for 8.50 got a great deal but they were flexible and could vacation when I could get them reservations. Here's what I found. Firstly I got lots of calls but most people I couldn't help because the timeframe of their vacation did not coincide with the 30 day booking window or times when there were reservations available. In April there are no reservations available for Memorial Day weekend. In addition, it cost me $30.00 for long distance phone calls plus about 4 hours of time over 3 days to sell these points. To have held out for more money would have cost me a lot more time and probably a higher phone bill. That 4 hours lost from work is worth a lot more than the 350.00 or so I could have gotten by selling my points for more money. Besides the fact that I may not have sold them at all and would have had to eat the cost. I know that would have helped out those that do a lot of point selling but I wasn't worried about that. I was simply trying to get some value out of a cancelled vacation for my Father. I know this is a bit disjointed but hopefully it will add something to the discussion :)

[Doctor P]

Great points, one_cat! I'm glad that renting worked out for you under these circumstances.

[WebmasterDoc]

Of these points 85 were in a 30 day hold account the rest were set to expire in less than 3 months.

Not that this affects the flow of this thread, but.....

The Holding Account is now 60 days instead of 30- so we have much more flexibility in using (or renting) those points. The change occurred last fall.

Enjoy!

[Dean]

I'm not sure I'll add anything new here, but I'll try. There will always be someone who has distressed points and those points should be cheaper than the standard rate, whatever that ends up being. Actually $8.50 and $10 pp is this situation is a good deal for the seller.

Ultimately rental market will be determined by market forces. What will a renter pay for the savings over Disney but with the increased risk and less flexibility. However, what a seller should expect depends partly on their upfront costs, yearly costs and Disney's discounted prices. Lets say a Moderate is $99 plus the 11% tax ($110) and OKW is 8 points per night, DVC is a much better deal and likely worth the extra risk for most families. At 11 points, the deal is a wash and likely not worth it. For BW and WL, the points would be a little higher to be a "break even" due to the higher cost of points there. I think it also is important to look at this as an investment, even if only renting occasionally. That means take into account the purchase, lost earnings on the money used, yearly fees and any other expenses. That puts those that paid about $50 pp at OKW to consider at least about $8-9 pp and those that paid $72-75 at WLV or BW, a price around $11-12 pp.

I didn't buy DVC to rent out but with life changes, other interests and avenues, I find myself with extra points almost yearly. I have no interest in letting them go to waste nor am I particularly interested in selling them at this time.

[one_cat]

You are right Doc - I misspoke. They were in a 60 day window. It seems like years ago though it was just March that I was selling those points. It certainly adds another dimension to your sales when you have to contend with that booking window. I even had to borrow some points from my next use year to fill out one customer's reservation :( However the money is in a savings account now so if I want to I can rent points from someone else to fill out my vacation :)

[Caskbill]

These are small points, but nobody has touched on them yet.

Someone looking to rent points will compare that cost to the best rate they can get for similar accommodations. Thus comparing the 'value' of rented points to the rack rate of a room is probably not accurate as there are discounts available all over WDW.

2nd, a stay on rented points does not come with daily maid service, while a cash room does.

3rd, rental points only make any sense for a buyer for a Sun-Thur stay. Cash rates do not have the same large deviation in price between weekday and weekend that points do.

For example, a Fri-Sat stay at BWV, Studio, preferred view, Dream season, is 58 points. At 13.50/point, that's $783 without maid service, or $391/night. You can definitely get a better cash rate than that.

On the other hand, a Sun-Thurs stay is 65 points. At 13.50/point that's $877 or $175/night without maid service. Not very competitive with available discounts that you can get for similar accommodations. But at 10.00/point, it's $650, or $130/night, which is competitive, even without the maid service.

Yes, I know there is trash and tidy, but that doesn't come close to daily maid service.