MAybe it really is about value and price....

[EUROPA]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TRAVEL/07/01/sprj.st03.theme.parks/index.html



....

And travelers don't need to go broke looking for something different. "Many facilities offer special pricing or package pricing to provide visitors with the biggest value for their dollars," said Beth Robertson of the International Association of Amusement Parks and Attractions (IAAPA).

With some 600 parks and attractions in the United States, options are almost unlimited for thrill-seeking travelers. According to the IAAPA, amusement parks entertained 324 million visitors in 2002 and generated $9.9 billion in revenues. That's a 2 to 3 percent attendance increase in almost every year in the last decade.

On average, the smaller attractions offer prices cheaper than their larger counterparts. One-day tickets for two adults and two children would cost about $120 at Hersheypark, $152 at Knott's Theme Park and $188 at Disney's Walt Disney World.

[d-r]

Is that also why the airlines are going out of business? Or are people going to things closer to home?

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by d-r
Is that also why the airlines are going out of business? Or are people going to things closer to home?

In today's world we really don't "have to" fly everywhere. Airlines are kept afloat in this country by business travelers. In today's world of mass communications there is very little need to fly somewhere and have a meeting. 9-11 just made that a little more clearer in peoples mind. Dennis Miller had a great view point on this he said it's not that business people need to fly everywhere to do business they were doing it because it got them out of the house, out of town, away from the wife and usually to a strip club.

The recreational travel industry is not going to keep our airlines afloat. In most if not all European countries airlines are heavily backed by the government or else they also would be going down the tubes.

[jlambrig]

I just took a really interesting survey online. The survey did not say anything about a nondisclosure agreement.

It started out being about traveling to central Florida but quickly turned into all about Disney. It looks like they are considering various pricing options for tickets and accommodations. For example, they are looking at peak, regular, and off-season pricing for both. Peak pricing would be at a 25% premium while off peak would be at a 25% discount.

The survey was structured so that I was given six options per page and asked which I would choose with the ability to say I wouldn't select any of the options. All prices shown are my best recollection but approximate what I saw fairly accurately.

Some of the things I saw for adult ticket options was:
1. Having them all expire after 14 days, this was consistent on all options
2. Restricting many to no park hopping
3. Showing on the ticket a fee for park hopping that is included in the price - this fee ranged from $6 to $25 or so
4. Showing a fee for water parks that is included in the ticket - this fee had a similar range as above
5. Under 10 years old would be a ticket fee of 90% of the adult price
6. Ticket options were from 1 day to 7 days and ranged from $60 to $350 or so.

Some of the things I saw for accommodations were:
1. I was offered choices for deluxe, moderate, and value Disney resorts (descriptions match what Disney already classifies as such) and at least one off site option. No actual names of resorts or hotels were used in the actual options but there were two types of off site hotels and names were used to describe each type (e.g. type one might be described as being a Radisson)
2. One piece of each option was a Guest Express described as a complimentary transportation service to and from Orlando International Airport (OIA) and your Walt Disney World Resort hotel. When you arrive at OIA, you immediately will be transported to any of the four Walt Disney World theme parks, without having to wait for your luggage. Your luggage will be delivered to your hotel room. This service is available only for those staying in Walt Disney World Resort Hotels.
3. Per night prices varied wildly with some amazing bargains being offered (e.g 9 nights at a moderate resort for $60 per night) during regular season

[d-r]

"complimentary transportation service to and from Orlando International Airport (OIA) and your Walt Disney World Resort hotel. When you arrive at OIA, you immediately will be transported to any of the four Walt Disney World theme parks, without having to wait for your luggage. Your luggage will be delivered to your hotel room. "

They keep tossing this around. I am so ambivalent about it. I am not sure that it would apply to DVC, and I can't figure out why it would take longer than 2 hours to get to a park anyway - I mean, all you miss is stopping at your resort and checking your bags, and after a flight that doesn't really bother me -

DR

[Lewisc]

Complimentary transportation from MCO is a way to discourage car rentals. Charging for resort parking would be another way. People with rental cars may do "bad" things like visit other theme parks, eat offsite and buy sundry items offsite.

I'm really surprised Disney hasn't tried this earlier.

The next step would be to do what Park Place properties does in Vegas (actually allow you to check in at the airport).

[April76]

quote from Europa's post:

On average, the smaller attractions offer prices cheaper than their larger counterparts. One-day tickets for two adults and two children would cost about $120 at Hersheypark, $152 at Knott's Theme Park and $188 at Disney's Walt Disney World.

------------------

I don't see how this pertains to value..... and I would expect that "on average, the smaller attractions offer prices cheaper than their larger counterparts." I don't know how a head-to-head comparison can be made between a day at Hershey Park vs. a day at WDW.

Now if it was said that folks preferred to spend less money per day for admissions and also save the travel/accomodation costs and that they don't mind getting a little less park for their money; then I guess they could feel that they "saved money" by going to the smaller (more local) parks.

[EUROPA]

You can obviously draw you own conclusions but its still remains a fact that Disney's attendance is dropping every year and it seems most of the local parks are up. Maybe it was the chicken finger that broke the cammels back. ;)

[d-r]

Cedar Fair is down 7%, but that has nothing to do with Disney.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by d-r
Cedar Fair is down 7%, but that has nothing to do with Disney.

I thought they were blaming that on the Weather at a few of their parks?

[mrsR123]

I don't think it's about ticket prices so much as the total undertaking-- and that seems to have several levels. There are plenty of people out there who are afraid to go "all out" for an out-of region vacation, whether it's monetary or plain old fear. For our past two trips-- post 9-11-- at least one person has asked me if I were afraid to be "at Disney" because they perceive it to be a potential terrorist target. I always answer that I'm not giving up my vacation for what if's and fear. But there are also the considerations of hotel and highway or air travel. I think a lot of families just can't see themselves spending the time and money to go all the way to Disney, for multiple days, with multiple expenses, when they can hit the local Six Flags, or whatever and go home the same day.

I on the other hand have three kids under ten, and there's no way I'm spending $200 for a day at Six Flags when so much of the park is beyond my family's height-- and there's no magic!!!!!

P.S. 16 days and counting-- I'm too lazy to go over to the tech board for a countdown clock!!!

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by mrsR123
I think a lot of families just can't see themselves spending the time and money to go all the way to Disney, for multiple days, with multiple expenses, when they can hit the local Six Flags, or whatever and go home the same day.


"money and time "

...or another way to say that is that Disney is not the value that people once saw it as.

[Planogirl]

Our Six Flags has a lot of special ticket deals including buy one ticket get one free and $25 for any ticket during the week. They also have special deals on season passes. It's possible to go to Six Flags for well under the gate price so I can see the appeal particularly for the family that enjoys coasters.

Plus they're right here along with other attractions. This saves some big bucks for those worried about their finances.

[crisi]

Originally posted by EUROPA
"money and time "

...or another way to say that is that Disney is not the value that people once saw it as.

Or that people simply don't have the disposible income they did five years ago. The market was lush. My cat could make a profit day trading. Jobs were everywhere, and companies threw money at people to keep them from leaving. "Spend five grand to take the kids to Disney - why not, my options will cover it." Times have changed. Many people's options are underwater - and few people are getting new ones, their raises are 1% and there are rumors of layoffs, it takes talent and luck to make money in the market with a buy and hold strategy, much less the quick wins of the day trader.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by crisi
Or that people simply don't have the disposible income they did five years ago. The market was lush. My cat could make a profit day trading. Jobs were everywhere, and companies threw money at people to keep them from leaving. "Spend five grand to take the kids to Disney - why not, my options will cover it." Times have changed. Many people's options are underwater - and few people are getting new ones, their raises are 1% and there are rumors of layoffs, it takes talent and luck to make money in the market with a buy and hold strategy, much less the quick wins of the day trader.


As AV likes to point out ... all of these problem did not seem to affect Disney in the 70's or the 80's. When we had recessions much worse then they are now.

No matter how you shine it up...it still looks like a value issue to me...and apparently more and more people are thinking the same thing. Disney just has to learn that you can't keep cutting and expect loyalty.

[mrsR123]

I'm not saying that they think it's proportionately too expensive, but rather that perhaps people think that with sooo much to do and see at WDW that they need to wait until the budget supports a multi-day trip.

Are there any families out there that go only to one park for one day at WDW? In contrast, are there any four, five, or fifteen day trips to Six Flags, Hershey Park, or even Cedar Point for coaster junkies?


I think that's the thinking that brought us FTP. ANd I for one am glad for it, because until it came out, I had another, less expensive trip planned this year.

[April76]

I have to agree with points made in a previous post.

I think that 9-11 has more to do with it than "perceived value"... I constantly encounter people who are afraid to fly anywhere; consider WDW as a "terrorist target"; or simply can't afford to go away from home ANYWHERE because their finances are in bad shape.

Unfortunately for WDW - being located at the bottom SE section of the USA, it is necessary for the majority of guests to commit to flying and paying for hotels for at least a week to make the trip worth taking.... which is complicated by one or more of those things I pointed out at the beginning of this post.

I would guess that guests from other countries have similar concerns. So it doesn't surprise me that attendance could be down.

[hopemax]

So if people are still afraid to fly and don't have money to spend, it would make sense that a place like Hawaii should be suffering too? Certainly a trip to Hawaii isn't much cheaper (if at all!) than trips to Florida and you don't even have the option to drive there. Problem is Hawaii's domestic tourism is steamrolling, and they've seen great improvement from their Japanese tourist base too.

http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2003/05/12/daily63.html?jst=s_rs_hl

http://www.hawaiibusinessmagazine.com/hb62003/hbe-brief.cfm?hbeid=488

And here's an article about Hawaiian tourism in 2002

http://pacific.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2002/11/25/daily31.html

I don't know, I don't think it's so cut and dried that, "people just don't have money and are afraid to fly."

[seashoreCM]

Disney is not just another amusement park or theme park it is unique. There are just a small number of Disney facilities, Orlando, L.A., Tokyo, Paris, and if you want Disney, you go there.

Part of the strategy for boosting attendance is new material. So many guests are repeat guests, and there will be times they want to see something new, something different, and may choose another city and another theme park instead.

As far as complimentary transportation from Orlando airport goes, could Disney make it non-stop? Otherwise it will be no different from Mears except without the fare. Also it would be a kick in the teeth to Mears who for a long time has benefited from the trickle down of tourist dollars that WDW brought to Orlando. And a lot of people don't want to leave their luggage with the shuttle driver, so they will not want to go directly to a park.

What is peak pricing of park admission supposed to accomplish? Just raise corporate revenue? Will it scare off people so lines are shorter? If Disney sold books of fast passes like they did E-tickets many years ago, they would have the same effect as charging different gate prices for peak dates, no?

Disney hints:
http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/disney.htm

[d-r]

Hopemax-

I was surprised to read you say that Japanese tourism to Hawaii was up; when I was in Okinawa there was a lot of discussion about increased domestic tourism to Okinawa because so many Japanese citizens were unwilling to travel to Hawaii after 9/11 - actually, the article you posted mentions:

"The healthy domestic airlift situation helps to offset the continuing slump in Japanese visitor traffic. Japan Airlines this week extended through July its slimmed-down Hawaii flight schedule. "

Similar to that is the drop of international travel to MCO. It seems to me that I recall that a large percentage in the drop of travel to Orlando has been from international flights.

Now, beyond that, which I think is an important point, I think with Hawaii there are a couple of things going on. As you said, not as cut and dry.

First, I think that some of the increase in flights from the mainland are increased military personel. I'm not sure about the percentage, but I am sure that it has increased.

Second, one of the things they mentioned was the length of stay for domestic visitors were up. This wouldn't impact airline numbers, but it would impact the tourism $. I think that longer stays are probably a reflection of people really wanting to make it worth it if they were going to go. This is very positive for Hawaii and tourism, but I doesn't mean the same thing as a rise in the number of tourists.

Third, the article you linked to mentions that a particularly large convention accounted for some of he increased traffic to Hawaii. I remember in Nov. 0f 2001 we went to Anaheim for a large convention, about 25,000 people. They really wavered about going through with it. I'm glad that they did, but beyond that, I don't doubt that it helped the visitor numbers at disneyland resort that fall.

Fourth, the sources you site are Hawaii tourism resources, and their job is to paint as rosy a picture as possible. I'm not saying that they aren't telling the truth, not at all, but that they are putting the most positive interpretation, and they are basing their projections on projected increases in flights. For instance, it is reported that 300,000 seats are planned to be added, which will result in 5.7 million seats, and this is an increase of 1.2 percent from the year 2000. Wow, you might think! It is actually increasing from the year 2000. But, wait a second; 300K isn't 1.2% of 5.7 million, is it? That would be more like 5.2%. So, up until now, the flights are below the year 2000 level by about 4%, right? Just as with other domestic flghts, the number of flights to Hawaii have been reduced since 2000. On the positive side, it looks like things are getting better, and they are inceasing the flights! At least on the proposed schedules. Through May of 2003, there had been 1.7 million domestic travelers to Hawaii, and this is a 3% increase from the same time last year. So it looks like tourism is on the rise from last year in Hawaii. As of May of 2000, there had been 1.8 million domestic travelers to Hawaii, so you can see that this year is still a little bit off of the 2000 numbers, though it is clearly recovering. What isn't clear to me, though, is that they are on pace for using 5.7 million seats on aircraft. Actually, the total domestic visitors for last year was 4.2 million. The total number of domestic for the year 2000 was 4.45 million. So you can see a small drop there. But what I'm not sure about is the descrepancy between the <4.5 million annual visitors and the 5.7 million seats - either some are empty, or 1 million people annually are "flying through," perhaps some of them on their way to US bases in the Phillipines, the South Pacific, Japan, and Korea. But that is just speculation of course. And remember, basically everybody who "arrives" in Hawaii is on a plane. It is a long boat ride from California, and no one is driving or taking a train. So that number of <4.5 million isn't much different that the total number of domestic visitors, wouldn't you think? How does that number - for the entire state - compare with the typical sorts of the number of visitors to wdw? An alternative explanation, and I don't have the data to test it, but it is a plausable hypothesis, is that there are about the same number of flights in 2003 than in say 2000, but there are larger planes and so there are more seats. The airlines have been working hard on consolodating flights the past couple of years, and this seems plausable to me - perhaps there are some larger planes that were used for cross coast travel that are being used for Hawaii, perhaps there is some sort of economic advantage in that to the airlines - again, I don't have data to test that, it is just a possiblity. Whatever, I don't think they are going to fill the extra seats - at least not from visiters staying in Hawaii.

Finally, I don't think anyone sees Hawaii as a place under threat of terrorim. Do you? I mean I feel a little more uneasy flying in to Reagan National than I did making domestic flights within Japan, for example, because I don't think anyone would see it as a target. Flights from Detroit to Lansing don't seem very concerning to me, but flights across long distances (e.g., to Florida) seem like there would be more jet fuel on board, more distance to approach something of value, bigger planes. I don't know if anyone else thinks that way, though. But, anyway, I don't remember Hawaii being named in connection with reports about concerns with terrorism, as the disney parks on both coasts have.

Now I'm going to be upfront and say that I don't fly as much as some people so I may not have as good a view, I guess I've only flown a dozen or so flights since 9/11. Domestic ones. Anyway, there are a lot fewer flights now than before. Don't you notice that? It is hard to get a flight from Michigan to Florida that isn't a pain. I went to Tampa a couple of months ago, and had to fly through Minnesota, even though the ticket was way in advance. It was like an 8 hour flght - there just weren't any flights from Dtw. There just aren't as many flights as there used to be. Why is that? Why are so many airlines in such financial trouble? Sure, airtran or southwest may not be struggling as much as some of the larger airlines, but why would that be?

One other thing, I'm not sure that people are really thinking about what a drop of say 5% in the visitors to Orlando means to the bottom line. We are going through a budget reduction at MSU, like a lot of folks in a lot of states are right now. A reduction of 5% is devastating - think about what that means! Even a reduction of only 1% or a stand still is very hurtful, because you have to increase wages each year, and costs of benefits will increase each year, and so will the costs of everything else - so a flat line is really a negative.

Finally, tourism is very important to Hawaii, and let me say Kudos to Hawaii for getting their tourism numbers up this year over the past two! At least the domestic numbers. In May of 2000, the year to date international arrivals were over one million; in May of 2003, they are about 720K. That is a pretty devastating drop of 30%. In fact, the year to date for 2003 is 7.8% off last year's year to date of 786K.

Edited to ADD: this means the number total of visitors so far this year is actually 12% less than the comparable period of 2000.

DR

Edited to add this brief summary

Hawaii Total Arrivals Jan-May (2003 figures available only to May)
2000 - 2849607
2002 - 2517329
2003 - 2508833 - a 12% reduction from 2000

[EUROPA]

D-R were you a juror on the OJ Simpson trial by any chance? :eek: :jester:

I mean you guys are really starting to come up with some dozzies about Disney's attendance problems. I'd like to point you guys to Occam's razor. I mean what is more likely that all of these combination of events you guys like to point to , happen to convene and drive Disney's attendance down for 3 straight years or that Disney is paying the price for ever increasing prices and reduction in quality and services and value?

[d-r]

let me be a little more simple then. So far this year there are less visiters to Hawaii than there were this time last year, and considerably less than there were this time in 2000.

I really think that people not flying because terrorists flew jet aircrafts into buildings, combined with the country being at war with two countries, is absolutely as parsiminous an explanation than the one you suggest.

seriously.

Dr

[April76]

I applaud all of you who have researched and read all the resources listed in your posts.....

However, I will admit that all of my opinions are based solely on information I have gotten straight from real people.... and THEY are citing one or more of the 3 main reasons that I listed in my previous post for not visiting WDW. (Terrorism threat, fear of flying, family budget crunch)

Not a single person has ever mentioned to me "...increasing prices and reduction in quality and services and value"... as a reason for not going to WDW.

BTW -- the next "popular" reason given for not going to WDW is "my kids aren't old enough to appreciate it yet". (Which begins a whole different thread)

I also had at least one lady tell me that she was waiting for SARS to go away.....

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by April76
I applaud all of you who have researched and read all the resources listed in your posts.....

However, I will admit that all of my opinions are based solely on information I have gotten straight from real people.... and THEY are citing one or more of the 3 main reasons that I listed in my previous post for not visiting WDW. (Terrorism threat, fear of flying, family budget crunch)

Not a single person has ever mentioned to me "...increasing prices and reduction in quality and services and value"... as a reason for not going to WDW.

BTW -- the next "popular" reason given for not going to WDW is "my kids aren't old enough to appreciate it yet". (Which begins a whole different thread)

I also had at least one lady tell me that she was waiting for SARS to go away.....


All of that may very well be based on your limited sample.... but why was attendance already in a decline before the moons and the planets aligned to create the current blame for Disney's woes? What about your sample of people that maybe don't keep up with the current Disney as we do and go back to really find some serious issues at Disney regarding hours cut backs and limited schedules do you think that will affect where they chose to go for their next trip?

[April76]

Dunno...... so far I haven't had anyone mention that they had a problem with schedules, etc..... They just talk about having a great time. Never had anyone say they wouldn't go back.

Yes, I'm the first to admit that my "sampling" is limited as far as quantity goes..... however, I depend more on what I hear first-hand from the folks who are an actual part of the "statistical data" than the compiled data itself..... never had much faith in statistical info --- I can take any data and compile statisitical info to suit my argument -- but that doesn't mean that my interpretation of the data actually represents reality.

[luvmk]

I don't know why disney's attendance is declining. It wouldn't surprise me if it is largely due to the economy. Although, I'm sure there is plenty of data to say otherwise. For many people, disney is a vacation and not a daytrip. The vast majority of the U.S. has to plan to go to disney. They have to make the committment. It isn't a spur of the moment decision like some local theme parks can be. I think many of us will admit that when we first look at the total amount that a disney vacation is going to cost, it can look expensive. No, make that it is expensive. Then again, so is cruising, Europe, Hawaii and Las Vegas(if you have bad luck!;) )
In general, vacations aren't cheap.

We are going to MNSSHP is October as part of the FTP. When you break down ticket price and hotel price, I think disney is one of the best values around. We have the UHP's and they work out to around $49 per day for the adults and $39 for our kids. We can arrive at 9:00 and ride as many rides as we want. In the afternoon we can go back to AKL and enjoy the animals, the pool or any other activities they have going on. In the evening, we can go to MGM to ride some rides and see fantasmic. Now consider that this amount also includes seeing characters, parades, fireworks and just the enjoyment of being in the parks. There is nowhere else like MK(at least for me). I would gladly pay the $49 everyday if I could relive the moment my dd4 saw snow white for the first time. She wouldn't stop hugging her! I had tears streaming down my cheek watching her. I know countless others have had the same experience.

I don't like all of the decisions that disney management has made in the past few years and I think they are now starting to see the error of their ways. We can only hope that they start to correct things. It wasn't until reading this board that I realized closing the park at 7:00 was considered a cutback. I didn't realize that not having spectro and fireworks everynight was a cutback. There are many people who have no idea of the changes being made at disney. Therefore, they aren't basing their decision to go or not on the fact of park closing times and whether or not spectro will be showing.