What on earth is Disney thinking??

[C.Ann]

This was over on the Theme Park and Attractions board and it actually kind of frightened me when I read it...

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Well, on the 18th,

It was hot all day and crowded. It started raining about 7-ish. SpectroMagic was scheduled for 9. People were lined up on Main Street for the parade before 8. At eight we found a spot on the circle by the castle -- by the walkway to Crystal Palace. Not a front row but close enough.

Shortly after that they put up a rope where main street meets the circle -- to close off Main Street -- directing crowds down the sidewalks on either side. So far OK -- except everyone was tired and the sidewalk was wet so we had to stand instead of sit while waiting.

Between 8 and 9 nothing was unusual. Security had to deal with keeping people off the street and making sure people were waiting in front of the ropes and not behind. Not pleasant, but not out of control.

At 9 came the first announcement that the parade was "delayed" for the safety of the performers, blah, blah, blah. That's when some people became very restless. They'd been standing for two hours and had decided to leave but security wouldn't let them down main street. A couple ducked under the ropes in defiance and one guy was getting in a guard's face. Still not out of control.

Then came the second announcement "the parade is delayed" again "blah, blah, blah."

Shortly after that announcement a HUGE crowd completely filled the circle massing toward the two guards trying to keep people off main street with a little rope. Reminiscent of the crowd hunting the Beast on Beauty and the Beast. Grumbling, angry, some shouting. Many were ducking under the rope and heading down main street. The guards (insanely) were trying to confront some of them. It looked like it might come to blows.

That's when it was on the verge of being totally out of control. There were hundreds pushing toward those ropes trying to get out. Thank God the guards finally opened the ropes and just let them down the street. If they hadn't done that I don't know what would have happened. A huge cheer went up.

Minutes later came the announcement that the parade was cancelled "for the safety of the performers blah, blah, blah." The appearance to me was that it was cancelled because the crowd had gotten out of control. It was raining a little. who knows.

I was distraught that things could get so ugly in the Magic Kingdom. Everyone around us was upset and complaining. A complete downer.
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Other comments on that board revolved around waits of up to 80 minutes to get on rides - enormous crowds (due to the minimal scheduling of parades and other events) - extremely long lines (and precious time wasted) in cursory security checks - horrendous waits for Disney transportation, etc..

I guess I don't understand the "business concept" here because if crowds are THAT bad (bad enough that people are actually concerned for their physical safety) - WHY does Disney continue to cry the blues over "low attendance" and not extend hours and/or schedule parades and events on a more frequent basis?

Seems to me it would be a PR nightmare if there were ever an incident of people being injured (or worse) during a mob scene like the one this poster witnessed - or does Disney really not care what their public image is anymore? :(

[wdwguide]

Main Street is a nightmare during parade times. I wonder what it will take to convince them to open a backstage bypass like they often do after Fantasmic or something similar to the Disneyland Paris arcades.

[doombuggy]

Just my two cents......

When I was there in May, we were at MK for the parade and while I was waiting to get seated at LTT for dinner, I asked someone about the parade being cancelled due to rain (it was threating and actually did rain while we were eating). The guy told me that they wait until the last minute to make that decision, and sometimes they will delay the parade.

I would think that by now the hours are later than what we experienced at WDW in mid-may. I haven't been in the summer in a LONG time, so I am not up on the hours. While, yes, waiting is a pain, the safety of the performers is paramount. I sure would not want to walk around will all those LIGHTS attached to me in the rain - no matter how light! It's dangerous!

As for ride waits, it sounds like what we used to experience back when i DID go in the summers, back in the '70s and '80s.

[KNWVIKING]

I never understood why people would plop their butt down on the curb two hours before a parade starts,especially in the summer heat. Sure the parades are great, but I've picked out ok spots at the last minute to watch the parade and didn't miss anything.

[Tekneek]

I also don't understand why people completely disregard weather considerations as well. I would not have titled this thread "What on earth is Disney thinking??" I would have titled it, "Tired tourists get irate when it is revealed that Disney cannot control the weather."

[miko]

I think the past several weeks had larger attendance than planned, more than "light" but not enough to be considered "high". WDW may have miscalculated thier staffing requirements and adding on shows and parades. I was surprised to see how crowded International Drive and 192 were, I understand on-site due to Fairytale Package, but off-site seemed heavy for early/mid June.
Security at WDW as at most parks is mostly token, they really cannot respond with anything other than words to "mob scenes" which seem to be happening a little more frequently. I feel bad for CM's assigned to security.

[hopemax]

I don't think it was the weather that was the primariy issue. The issue was a large mass of people were trying to exit the park, and they couldn't.

The weather only provided the motivation for the group to leave.

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by Tekneek
I also don't understand why people completely disregard weather considerations as well. I would not have titled this thread "What on earth is Disney thinking??" I would have titled it, "Tired tourists get irate when it is revealed that Disney cannot control the weather."
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You totally misunderstood the point I was getting at.. I've been in WDW when parades were delayed - or cancelled - and have no problem with that... The safety of the performers definitely comes first.. And I certainly don't expect "Disney to control the weather"..

What I - and the original poster of the thread - took issue with is the REASON the park was so overcrowded.. They (Disney) have cut parades and events to a BARE minimum and THAT in turn has resulted in a situation where these mob scenes could become physically threatening to their patrons.. The parks are already horribly crowded as it is - limit the number of days, nights, or hours that certain events take place and you are going to easily TRIPLE the number of people who will be there for said event - and you've got a MAJOR accident waiting to happen..

Sorry if you didn't get that..

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by hopemax
I don't think it was the weather that was the primariy issue. The issue was a large mass of people were trying to exit the park, and they couldn't.

The weather only provided the motivation the group to leave.
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Glad to see someone "got it".. LOL

[mickey2001]

FTP package does not start until 7/4. As for the small crowds, remember that Disney has cut back on their PT help. They need the extra CM's in the streets during parades. JMO:Pinkbounc :Pinkbounc :bounce:

[Planogirl]

When we were at WDW during Spring Break, Spectromagic was shown ONCE during the whole week. MK was a nightmare that afternoon and we fled the park long before the parade started just to get out of the crowds. Naturally, most guests had shown up for this parade and I can only imagine the situation if it would have rained. Yuck.

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by Planogirl
When we were at WDW during Spring Break, Spectromagic was shown ONCE during the whole week. MK was a nightmare that afternoon and we fled the park long before the parade started just to get out of the crowds. Naturally, most guests had shown up for this parade and I can only imagine the situation if it would have rained. Yuck.
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Precisely my point.. Spetromagic was shown ONCE during the whole week."

"MK was a nightmare that afternoon.."

"Naturally, most guests had shown up for this parade.."

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Weather is not the issue.. Creating mob conditions IS.. Look at it this way.. Let's say guests come to Disney World for one week - a total of 7 days.. Take a rough guess at how many people are there during that 7 day period - and then cram them ALL into MK for ONE event on the same evening..

Rain, sun, snow, sleet, whatever - you're inviting a disaster..

[Val]

What worries me more about the 18th report is WDW's inability to handle "sudden and angry/upset/scared" large crowds like you get when a parade is cancelled or there is an emergency. Having been on Main Street when a parade was cancelled (albeit 2 years ago) I know how frightening this can be. My small children were nearly trampled and we pulled into a store to avoid the stomping. With the limited staff and the right-hand-apparently-not-knowing-what-the-left-hand-is-doing----can we truly believe that the staff could handle a REAL situation?

Yes, they could call more staff and have backup security CM's, but this takes time and coordination. Seconds can be critical in an emergency situation.......maybe we WILL be spending more time at universal/Sea World, etc. this year. Given no/few parades, early closing shops and restaurants, reduced staffing and the potential inability by staff to handle dangerous situations, staying AWAY from the world is looking better and better. I am glad we own DVC, but I am finding I am using the DVC unit as a home base to go ELSEWHERE. They have my money for DVC, but Disney is getting less and less of my vacation dollars.

[KNWVIKING]

"What worries me more about the 18th report is WDW's inability to handle "sudden and angry/upset/scared" large crowds like you get when a parade is cancelled or there is an emergency. "

I'm not sure if this statement is intended to mean Disney did something wrong or not with their "inability", but if it is, what would you suggest?

Florida weather,especially in the summer,can turn wet almost at will so you can't plan for extra security based what could happen at parade time. So what is the alternative, a bricade of riot troops ? I doubt we want to feel like martial law is in effect during the parades.

".......maybe we WILL be spending more time at universal/Sea World, etc. this year."

Stick with Seaworld. We just did IOA/US last week.....well, I'll stop there.

[Val]

What I mean is that the CM's should have a plan for dealing with "unruly" crowds. Canceling the parade is fine and very warranted. Not having the guests leave in an orderly and controlled manner- or having a plan for dealing with a crowd that is likely to be angry and unruly is unforgivable.

In general, Disney does well with the "expected" routines. It is when there is the unexpected that I feel Disney is not always the best prepared. To me, it is quite expected that crowds would be angry, upset and in a hurry to leave after sitting in the rain waiting for a parade that now won't happen (actually, I agree with another poster about the intelligence of sitting in the rain that obviously isn't going to end for two hours)......but the park staff needs to have a way to quickly and efficiently move large groups of people. It seems that with our current terror scares cancelled parades would be an excellent way to PRACTICE some of these techniques.

And yes, in a terrorist event (God forbid), some people would complain and want their money back or a return pass for a different day because they didn't get their money back! Hopefully, Disney will be prepared enough that the complainers will be alive to complain and the rose-colored glasses folk will be alive to continue reminding us of the magic. I just don't see evidence of this during mass crowd events on Main street.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING

I'm not sure if this statement is intended to mean Disney did something wrong or not with their "inability", but if it is, what would you suggest?



I'm guessing that most people would suggest that a company that has been in the Theme park business for more then 30 years knows how to handle situations like this. As I'm sure it's not the first time it has happened.

[RunAwayDoomBuggy]

ooh.. was that the day of the big big storm? cause i (and a handful of others) were waiting for the rain under the old sky buckets building in tomorrowland.. the rain was long.. and i heard anouncements about somthing, but i didnt understand it, it was like further away.. sorry, it was my first time there, i didnt pay attention to the date.. hehe..

any how, thats preaty insane.. but is it disney or those people.. drissle didnt stop the jammin parade at AK when i was there.. and it is insane on main street during the parade.. example, heres my scenerio on spectro magic.. after the rain, we went to the arcade and we had to use our fastpasses to space mountain, by then its about time for spectro magic.. i never seen it, neither my family, but my dad felt sick and we needed to go back to our $100 a nite hotel, all star music (hehe) and we didnt know where to go.. we found a dead end ,walked back and then found that little bridge that took us another way from tomorrowland to main street.. by that time, anouncement on parade, 5 minutes.. 10 seconds after, parade starts! back to story, i feel like driving, well, dont you when your walking around, you walk on the right side while peopl pass you by on your right.. amazingly, people do that here, but during a parade, you neen a bazillion CMs tell you to walk on you right.. but how can you when theres people sitting down?! and when the parade started, some people who were walking stopped!!! stopped!! i thought you wanted to leave!! finally we left and took the bus..

moral? disney has been doing this ever since..

[KNWVIKING]

"I'm guessing that most people would suggest that a company that has been in the Theme park business for more then 30 years knows how to handle situations like this. As I'm sure it's not the first time it has happened."

Well, how many times have you read about a situation like this happening at WDW ? This is the first time I've heard about it. We were at MK in May when they had a Spectro & Fantasy nite. The crowd was huge,worst I've ever been in. After the last BANG in the sky we all know what happened. A gazillion tired,sweaty,cranky people shuffling south. But outside the exit,all crowds were channeled to the appropriate location.Disney did a good job handling tons of people. There is no accounting for an angry mob.This incident took place probably over the course of a minute or two then escalated out of control. These are people on vacation causing a riot because a parade is canceled because of rain. I just can't fathom how you prepare for something like that.

[Val]

In today's world you NEED to plan for something like an angry, out of control mob. Disney is too smart to be dumb. My hope is that, after the event on the 18th the powers that be examined videotapes and interviewed CMs and have a better attack plan. Maybe this was addressed in the practice drills at Pop Century yesterday....I hope so. What about a crowd's reaction to a suicide bomber, an armed individual, or a bomb? Hopefully the cancelled parade melee is NOT indicative of Disney thinking on its proverbial feet.......I guess that I expected the CMs to be better prepared at dealing with the large mob.....and yes, shame on the people for getting unruly. Unfortunately, as some members of the crowd grow angry and unruly, social psych research has shown that people all to eagerly join in. Disney needs to program for the stupid and inappropriate folk as well as those who remember to carry on the magic. Unfortunately, there is no security check for bad attitudes!

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
[B These are people on vacation causing a riot because a parade is canceled because of rain. I just can't fathom how you prepare for something like that. [/B]

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Let me try this one more time.. This is NOT about the weather..

This is about Disney creating unusually large mob scenes by their refusal to offer parades and other events more than once a week when they know full well that the result will be dangerously large numbers of people..

Do you get it now? Wouldn't matter if it were the most PERFECT weather day in the history of Orlando.. NOT about the weather.. Get it??

[KNWVIKING]

"Let me try this one more time.. This is NOT about the weather.. "

No,this is about people being irresponsible idiots.

No one is saying this is about the weather, but if it hadn't rained then the parade would have ran on schedule and there would have been no riot. The crowd was not an issue till the rain spoiled their day. Is that cause for a riot ?

What happened back in the good ol' days when MK was packed all summer- to the point of closing access on somedays ? Did they stop running parades because the crowds were large ?

The size of the crowd isn't the problem, it was their attitude.

[Val]

and Disney needs to be prepared to deal with the attitudes of people today- whether those attitudes are justified or not. The fact that people act like idiots is not a hidden secret. Disney needs to be prepared because Disney DOES owe us as safe an environment as possible, even given the attitudes of idiots. If Disney knows that parades create crowds, they must be prepared to control the crowds.

There is a tremendous amount of research on crowd behavior. What happened on the 18th does not sound "out of ordinary" for the situation- but it appears Disney was ill-prepared to handle of the situation. A cheap consultant and a little ground work could result in a well-layed out "emergency" plan. I am just very surprised that a large and experienced corporation like Disney was so caught-off-guard. I will yield to the pixie dust and hope that this was an anomaly and not the typical Disney response. If not.....well, I'll spend my money where safety is better valued.

[KNWVIKING]

"Disney needs to be prepared because Disney DOES owe us as safe an environment as possible, even given the attitudes of idiots. If Disney knows that parades create crowds, they must be prepared to control the crowds."

But realistically this is easier said then done.

". What happened on the 18th does not sound "out of ordinary" for the situation- but it appears Disney was ill-prepared to handle of the situation."

Does this riot happen often at MK ? This is the first I've heard of one but I'm sure in 30 years there has been other events. It is very difficult to be prepared for a sudden crowd reaction that happens unexpectantly once every blue moon.

I operate a GMC service department. One of the problems is dealing with sudden work overloads. For no ryme or reason dozens of trucks fail all at once. In the perfect world I open the spare technician locker and pull out three or four A techs and put them right to work. Couple weeks later when the work load returns to normal level I put them back in the locker & turn their switch off till I need them again. I my world though, I pull my hair out and drink Malox.

[Val]

I agree KNWVIKING!!!! I do lots of consulting on "behavior problems" for a living....I just believe that parades are more of a "predicted" event rather than an unexpected. You would expect LOTS of repairs after a bad storm- and call in extra repair people. You wouldn't expect lots of repairs after an average uneventful day. I wouldn't fault you for the unexpected. I would wonder where your brain was when you had reduced the number of repairment after a storm (note: not DURING the storm.....again, no reasonable person could expect you to get extras then).

I believe Disney was at fault because of their failure to deal with large crowds at an incredibly popular parade. Now, if there was a riot at It's a Small World, that would be unpredictable (think: thousands running for the boats singing loudly). In this day and age, we need to be forward thinkers and not reacters. I know that at my place of employment (a large state university) we DO have contingency events for emergency events- for example dealing with VERY unhappy dorm residents after a false fire alarm. We try and think of the unthinkable to be prepared. I would expect the same of Disney. I will be optimistic and hope that this was a very isolated event. Time will tell!

[KNWVIKING]

"I know that at my place of employment (a large state university) we DO have contingency events for emergency events- "

Hopefully you don't work Kent State :-)

[Val]

Nope....but in today's budget cuts (another reality gone bad) it sometimes FEELS like it! Our local police are pretty inept at dealing with the college students (maybe that's why I expect more of Disney, I thought they were BETTER than the Normal Police Department, and yes, that's the name of the town!)......

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
[B
Does this riot happen often at MK ? This is the first I've heard of one but I'm sure in 30 years there has been other events. It is very difficult to be prepared for a sudden crowd reaction that happens unexpectantly once every blue moon.

[/B]
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But Disney IS aware of this potentially dangerous overcrowding because they have CHOSEN to schedule extremely popular events ONE day a week.. You don't honestly believe that they figure, "Oh yeah - there's a weeks worth of folks visiting Disney World but certainly there won't be any over crowding.. I mean - gosh - probably only a handful will turn out.. It's not like we advertise the living daylights out of these events as something that is NOT to be missed or anything..."

There was nothing "unexpected" about the NUMBERS that were there.. A simple inventory of how many people were passing through the gate every day would have given them a VERY accurate idea of how many would be back to see the parade..

And yes - there are "idiots" no matter what the reason - rain, humidity, mother-in-law getting on ones nerves - whatever - so the bottom line is you could have a dangerous situation erupt at ANY given time in a crowd that large - and one that Disney isn't prepared to handle..

The sad part is the solution is SOOOOOOOOO easy.. Schedule more than ONE event in the span of a week and conceivably cut that mob in half..

As the previous poster pointed out, Disney needs to think ahead - not wait until a tragedy occurs..

[Tekneek]

Originally posted by C.Ann
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They (Disney) have cut parades and events to a BARE minimum and THAT in turn has resulted in a situation where these mob scenes could become physically threatening to their patrons.. The parks are already horribly crowded as it is - limit the number of days, nights, or hours that certain events take place and you are going to easily TRIPLE the number of people who will be there for said event - and you've got a MAJOR accident waiting to happen..

I did not get that point, unfortunately. I do agree with this. I think they should keep MK open until at least 9 or 10 PM, with associated parades and fireworks a minimum of 3 nights a week. This way, people won't have to pack in for the once a week event.

If they go with the same schedules they had last year, we aren't going to have a chance to see a night parade or Fantasy In The Sky once during a 7 night stay at WDW in September. Not even once a week during that time.

[Tekneek]

Disney does create the tense situation, because they have reduced these events to once a week, or even fewer than that. They lay the groundwork for the problems. However, grown adults are likely the people in the crowd who should know how to behave properly in society, and they are the ones that decide to fly off the handle instead. *They* alone are responsible for their actions, not Disney, or the way they schedule things. Disney may help create the situation, but sensible and responsible people do not escalate matters in a crowd and challenge security. If you are unhappy, talk to Guest Relations about it. If you are staying on property, talk to someone when you get back to your resort. Don't make matters worse by acting like a jerk in the Magic Kingdom. Don't teach your kids that this kind of behavior is ok by demonstrating it in front of them.

While I agree that Disney should not limit these events the way they do, effectively turning them into a negative experience for employees and customers alike, they are not responsible for irrational fools who lose their heads. I wish every one of them had been forced to the ground and cuffed until they could cool off and act like a normal human being should.

[Val]

If only Disney WOULD cuff 'em and escort them out....instead the CM's look helpless and out of control of the situation. Example: three years ago after the daytime parade my husband was tripped by individuals trying to hurry out (he was pushing a stroller and NO we were not bumping ankles!). We were walking down the side walk towards the bridge to frontier land and some individuals "jumped" the roped off area and pushed by us. The stroller tipped, my husband cut his knee. Several CM's saw it and took us to first aid where we received wonderful help. On the way, they remarked about how out of control the crowd was, but that their job was just to keep people happy and watch out for injuries......seemed a little backwards. Rather than treating the injuries from an out of control situation (and open the corporation to potential law suits from like-minded "other kinds of idiots") it would seem more logical to develop better traffic flow.

The next year was no better, or the year after that. Now we just avoid the area and stay away from parades. Our choice-our freely made choice. But it still seems that in this day and age Disney should be the EXPERTS at crowd control, not the bumbling idiots.

Interestingly, this DOES seem to be a particularly Magic Kingdom type problem. I agree that Fantastmic and Illuminations have much better crowd control. Given that MK has the highest attendance, I remain very surprised that the corporate powers that be allow this to continue. Guess it WILL take a major law suit to change things. Let's just hope it is a frivilous suit and not a major tragedy.

[KNWVIKING]

Take a lookat the average CM. Just everyday plain folk,some kids,some seniors, some in between. They smile,they're polite, courtious, helpful, great people. They hold a little rope as a barrier for rational people, they direct you across the parade route when there is a break. Just a bunch of nice people.

Can you picture them being able to physically control a mob ? Are they intimidating in any way ?Even if there were 2 or 3 times the CM's present, do you think it would have made a difference ? Put yourself in their place. You're making $6.00 an hour to hold a rope. Now a mob is pushing past,ignoring your rope. Are you going to lay it all on the line to prevent this ?

So what is a practical solution. More parades ? Well, at any given parade or event there are crowded areas. Maybe the park population is just average but people are choosing to pack main street so as soon as the parade is over they can get out fast. Bottom line is that prime areas for a parade are always going to be packed. Maybe more parades can ease the overall crowd level, but it won't help deal with the weather or idiots which played a major role (IMO) in this riot.

Do you hire specifically trained, physically intimidating staff of parade "guards" who only work during parades but still have to be paid a full time liveable salary? What resulting cost cuts will be made to finance this expense ?

This situation erupted in a split second and was probably over very fast. Even getting additional CM's from point A to point B thru a crowd this size be ineffective because by the time they got to the scene,the situation would be over.

See, it's easy to say "they should have done something" after the fact, but that "something" is usually easier to say then do.

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by Val
If only Disney WOULD cuff 'em and escort them out....instead the CM's look helpless and out of control of the situation. Example: three years ago after the daytime parade my husband was tripped by individuals trying to hurry out (he was pushing a stroller and NO we were not bumping ankles!). We were walking down the side walk towards the bridge to frontier land and some individuals "jumped" the roped off area and pushed by us. The stroller tipped, my husband cut his knee. Several CM's saw it and took us to first aid where we received wonderful help. On the way, they remarked about how out of control the crowd was, but that their job was just to keep people happy and watch out for injuries......seemed a little backwards. Rather than treating the injuries from an out of control situation (and open the corporation to potential law suits from like-minded "other kinds of idiots") it would seem more logical to develop better traffic flow.

The next year was no better, or the year after that. Now we just avoid the area and stay away from parades. Our choice-our freely made choice. But it still seems that in this day and age Disney should be the EXPERTS at crowd control, not the bumbling idiots.

Interestingly, this DOES seem to be a particularly Magic Kingdom type problem. I agree that Fantastmic and Illuminations have much better crowd control. Given that MK has the highest attendance, I remain very surprised that the corporate powers that be allow this to continue. Guess it WILL take a major law suit to change things. Let's just hope it is a frivilous suit and not a major tragedy.

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VERY well stated!! You don't need some idiot causing a ruckus in order for injuries to occur.. You need three things:

A large crowd attempting to leave a very congested area with poorly constructed exit routes.

ONE person to trip and fall - which could (and has in other instances at various events) cause a "domino" effect..

And lastly, a company who not only is unprepared for crowd control, but for the sake of a dollar will cram as many human beings into one spot as they possibly can - and then just "hope for the best.."

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
See, it's easy to say "they should have done something" after the fact, but that "something" is usually easier to say then do.
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The something is very, VERY easy.. Don't cram a weeks worth of visitors into the park on ONE night!

There are "crowds" and then there are CROWDS.. There's a big difference - whether you want to acknowledge it or not..

[emmagata]

Originally posted by C.Ann


The sad part is the solution is SOOOOOOOOO easy.. Schedule more than ONE event in the span of a week and conceivably cut that mob in half..



That wouldn't work for us because we would go see BOTH parades!!!

[Another Voice]

Hmmmm....

Isn't it kinda funny that we've been told so many times that the short park hours aren't any problem becuase the small crowds allow everyone to get in a full day at the Magic Kingdom....

...and now where being told that it's not Disney's problem they can't contain the huge crowds swarming the parks and how people fear their children will be trampled.

[KNWVIKING]

"There are "crowds" and then there are CROWDS.. There's a big difference - whether you want to acknowledge it or not.."

The crowd at this event can't be any bigger then the crowds MK has experienced in the past. They've had to close the gates in the summer because the park reached max capacity.Were there riots then.Is there a riot everytime a parade is canceled on a hot.crowded,rainy day ?

I just won't defend a riot mentality because of the size of the crowd.

[Planogirl]

There used to be a time when you could see Spectromagic every night. If one night seemed too crowded, you could wait until the next night if you wished to. Now it becomes imperitive to see it on that one night. In the past, many people rushed to the popular rides during a parade and some probably just continued to leisurely tour or shop. It was an old trick to (hopefully) find shorter lines and quieter park walkways during this time. Are visitors still doing this? Or are too many of them jamming the parade route whenever Spectromagic is offered on such a limited basis? In other words, could the crowd size still be the same but is it perhaps distributed more along the parade route than before?

And is Disney staff still closing the park at the same crowd level that they used to? Have budget cuts POSSIBLY affected how many people are allowed in the park at any given time? I'm not saying that the cuts have compromised safety, I'm just wondering about these things.

[KNWVIKING]

"There used to be a time when you could see Spectromagic every night. If one night seemed too crowded, you could wait until the next night if you wished to. Now it becomes imperitive to see it on that one night. In the past, many people rushed to the popular rides during a parade and some probably just continued to leisurely tour or shop. It was an old trick to (hopefully) find shorter lines and quieter park walkways during this time. Are visitors still doing this? Or are too many of them jamming the parade route whenever Spectromagic is offered on such a limited basis? In other words, could the crowd size still be the same but is it perhaps distributed more along the parade route than before?"

But remember right after 9/11 when the Saudi prince was handing over 10 mill to Mayor Rudy. Then went on to say what a tragedy "but" if the USA hadn't or had done this or that.... about the moment he said "but" the Mayor was tell him to stick his check up his .....

That's the way I feel about rioters. Are crowded parks,hot days and canceled parades ever a reason to justify what happened ?

[DisneyKidds]

I agree that this whole "situation" could have been avoided to a great degree if Disney had longer hours and more SpectroMagics - but Disney doesn't want to "get" that. A shame.

That being said.....................
and Disney needs to be prepared to deal with the attitudes of people today- whether those attitudes are justified or not. The fact that people act like idiots is not a hidden secret. Disney needs to be prepared because Disney DOES owe us as safe an environment as possible, even given the attitudes of idiots. If Disney knows that parades create crowds, they must be prepared to control the crowds.
I say it was the guests who were the problem. They should have been more understanding of the situation. The CM had every right to try and keep people from streaming down Main St toward the exit. As far as they knew the parade could have started at any second - and that parade comes down Main Street from the entrance of the park. If any number of inconsiderate guests wanted out because they are tired of waiting or wanted a jump on the mass exodus should the parade be cancelled - they should have used the designated walkways and crosswalks, no matter how slowly they were moving. There is a reason they limit access to Main Street at parade time and it is for the safety of the guests.

[Val]

I don't disagree that the rude people "caused" the problem.....I am not completely convinced that having more parades, etc., would automatically help the situation (although I am ALL for that on a personal level)....I do believe Disney needs to be better prepared.

If we take the analogy that it is the rude people's fault, then we must extend the argument: Stores should not train their employees (who generally make around minimum wage) to deal with retail theft- its the rude people's fault that they steal and store clerks shouldn't have to put themselves in a confrontation; we shouldn't teach people defensive driving or to report drunk drivers, because it is the stupid drunk drivers fault and we had better expect them to stop behaving badly; we shouldn't prepare for terrorist attacks because the terrorists are only behaving like bad people and we should expect them to behave better.....and so on and so forth.

The answer is- we must protect customers and clients from the "stupid, rude or inappropriates". That is my issue with Disney in general, and the crowd/traffic control at MK specifically. They are sitting on a ticking time bomb. Yes, the CM's can be taught how to deal with a crowd situation and when to start calling backup (hint: BEFORE you lose control).....unfortunately, I believe that it will take a horrendous event before Disney reacts. On the other hand, I am hoping (praying?) that the terrorist drill the other day was a step in the right direction.

[crusader]

It's reasonable to assume that sane individuals will act rational during a threatened situation but it never happens. That's because they FEAR for their safety. Once the riot was invoked it caused panic and everybody began to move away from the situation at the same time which caused more panic until it became an uncontrollable mob.

Yes - Disney should have some mechanism in place to mitigate this. They know they could have a potentially dangerous situation whenever a crowd forms. They are experienced with large capacity attendance and frankly miscalculated this one. They got lucky but cannot afford a next time.

I know the premise is that it's because of the parade scheduling. No doubt this was a contributor. Parades are the main reason crowds form in a particular area. I understand the argument that if you just add a few more parades people will gather at various times but do not fully agree. I have often seen spectators gathering in large volumes for parades even if one was offered the day before.

The problem is the crowd got hostile quickly and the CM's were not equipped to manage this.

[emmagata]

I've read all the posts so far and reread the reposted report.


I don't believe for one minute that Disney was the catalyst for this situation.

It was the people.

They didn't care to follow some simple rules.

They decided that they would do as they please.

Sure, when it's hot,wet and people have been waiting (some for a long time) they can get cranky.

Who's to say that Disney isn't(wasn't) prepared for this type of situation and they they did what they were supposed to do?

Does anyone here know the inner workings of crowd control that Disney uses?

Perhaps a CM that works the parades might be able to (if they are allowed) to shed some light on this issue.

[YesDear]

First let me say that I echo John's previous post.

Let me also say that I was there that night and did not get the feeling of a stampeed.

I have been going to WDW for over 23 yrs and have been during all seasons. It is amazing to me the reactions.

I have seen days that the MK was closed for the crowd and it was not near that crowded then. I did not feel the CM crowd control was any less than it had been. I do not make it a habit to count CM heads while there, but did not feel they were understaffed. You had a crowd of people wet and tired! Some decided not to stay and the crowd mentality took over.

I see far more of a reduction in Disney patron behaivor over the years rather than a reduction in Disney Magic.

I remember when you did not see a trash can emptied in the MK. Empty ones were brought out and replaced the full ones. There are too many people there to do that now.

[CWIPPERMAN]

I work for a fairly large metropolitan Police Department. In our city we have an "entertainment district" that becomes the home of thousands of drunks on weekends. For the last several summers, we have had several near-riots at "closing time" when all of the bars empty onto the sidewalks - and everyone wants to stand around socializing. For several years, we have tried to keep the sidewalks moving by having the officers "sweep" folks along ("keep moving please"), and by having a huge police presence. This has resulted in many "incidents" between the police and drunken idiots. All it seems to takes one or two to start yelling or pushing a cop - and all hell breaks loose. Or the inevitable fight breaks out somewhere and when we head to the scene to break it up, hundreds of folks gather to see what's happening.

This year, we have tried a "hands-off" approach. When they crowd onto the sidewalk or street - we let them stay there (the streets are blocked off to traffic) until they move along. Sometimes we will have folks standing around talking for 2 or 3 hours after the bars are closed. This has resulted in less incidents and complaints from the public.

The point I'm trying to make is that sometimes the "saturation" approach (lots of security/cops/CM's) is not the best approach for handling a huge crowd. The Original Poster said that "a guy walked up to CM and started complaining" (or something to that effect). In other words.... it only takes one or two folks to incite a crowd. I think that by keeping a small number of CM's, you lower the risk of folks feeling threatened or agressive when they get upset. I think Disney knows this and knows that when you put more CM's on the street - you increase the tension level and escalate the potential for conflict (you may have seen this a lot in the news lately where cops go into a "hot zone" where rioting has occured. They "grab & go" - or handle the situation and get out - instead of bringing a huge police presense into the area).

As far as the complaints of "too few parades or shows". I agree with this to an extent. Last year, my vacation was from Sunday to Friday. The only spectro that week was on Saturday. If Disney would have had a Spectro on Wednesday for example then all of the folks (like ourselves) who were there just for the week would have crowded that show. If my reading on this board is correct - Saturday's are the most crowded at MK. This is probably because a lot more "locals" come to MK Saturday. So to insinuate that an additional parade during the week would be any less crowded than one on a weekend is flawed. It is just that the "mid-week" vacationers would make it a point to visit on a day of the show - and all of the resort guests who wouldn't be there on a weekend would visit on the day of the show. I would venture to guess that you would have the same crowds for a mid-week show that you would have on a weekend show (did that make any sense.... I know what I'm trying to say - but I'm not sure if I can make sense).

Anyway.... I'm all for adding additional show times for Spectro, but that may not necessarily solve the problem of overcrowding.

And, by the way. This year, we arrive on a Saturday afternoon. Our main priority will be to get to MK in time to watch the parade and fireworks.

[Tekneek]

We happen to be arriving on the Saturday that "Night of Joy" is on, so there is no Spectromagic or Fantasy In The Sky for that night. The next Saturday there was nothing last year, so I anticipate there being nothing this time. It seems odd to me that you could be at WDW for a week anytime of the year and not be able to see at least one night parade and fireworks.

While the parades may be just as crowded, there will be less of the pressure to 'see it now' if they happened at least twice a week. If things were not working out, and you had the chance to return on Wednesday, you'd be better prepared to walk away from it than stand and fight about it.

[ztbz]

In order for to get changes to be made at Walt Disney World, you need to write letters not only to Walt Disney World in Florida but also to the Walt Disney Company Head-Quarters in Burbank CA.

I know for a fact that staffing at Walt Disney World was Reduced or Cut-back in May 2003 at each Department in all areas at WDW in order to save money on Labor Costs, and is why the parks are not open as late as they use to be in the summer & with Fewer Parades & Shows, as well as having Slow-Service at the Attractions, Restaurants, Gift Shops and Transportation to Disney Hotels.

[CWIPPERMAN]

To add a little irony to my post above about the problems we have with our "Entertainment District". Last night (several hours after I posted the above thread about the problems we have there) as the bars were letting out, 3 people were stabbed..... one fatally. Now of course this is a bar setting, but the biggest problem is that when all of the officers tried to respond, the crowd wanted to gather around to see what was going on. This made it much more difficult for officers & medical personnel to respond.

It is a sobering reminder of how quickly the "mob-mentality" can turn dangerous.

[Snow Brite]

When we were there last May, there was only one day during a 12 day stay that had Spectro and the fireworks and it was a Saturday. There were so very many people in the park it really was impossible. We were going to wait for the second parade but the streets and walkways became clogged with people staking out spots and so we gave up and staked out our own about 1 1/2 hours before the parade. Our spot was third row at this point. I knew it was a waste of time, but there was really no way to move around. We were in about the same spot, where Main Street joins the hub and they rope off the part of the hub where the parade does not go.

It was miserable. There were SO many people trying to wait, trying to walk, trying to move strollers. A lady in a wheelchair wanted to use the ramp right there and it took nearly 5 minutes to get everyone shuffled to get her through. Then a stream of people started moving along behind her and everyone with a staked out spot had to restake their spot or lose it to traffic.

We watched the parade and enjoyed what we could see. Then came the really scary part. Lots of people who had seen the parade wanted to also see the fireworks and moved into the hub to see them, where the parade had been. Other people just wanted to leave the park and were trying to walk, where other people were waiting. It ended up with one narrow stream of people about 1 person wide snaking through the street full of standing people. There was much snarling and general peevishness when people stopped to make sure the rest of their party was with them and held up the line, had trouble moving a stroller through, etc. I was seriously looking for a way out with my two kids at all times as I was never sure when it was going to go bad. Eventually everyone who wanted to be somewhere else got there and the fireworks started. Then everyone left and we had terrific front row seats with no crowding for the second parade.

It truly was a bit scary for me as people did get quite cranky. And in my opinion they were cranky with good reason. There were WAY too many people in WAY too small a space. And those that wanted to leave could not. If you were on a tight schedule (trying to catch a bus that was leaving, etc.) and had not realized what would happen (as we did not) it could be a panicky thing. There also seemed a HUGE potential for parties to get seperated. And if anyone had gone down in that it would have been serious.

Just my opinion of what I saw. And that was a night without rain or a cancellation of the parade.

[Uncleromulus]

--all of which is why I try to avoid crowds, whenever and wherever found.
I went to an evening MK parade just once in all my years at WDW--and won't ever go again. No real trouble mind you--just constant pushing, shoving, cursing, etc as everybody and their brother tried to get the best seat in the house and follow the parade as it made it way along the route. And this was well before any cutbacks, etc.--just a normal parade evening. But how to avoid that sort of thing?? Probably impossible, unless you apply a "seperate ticket" for that kind of event. Otherwise anybody and everybody in the park is a potential part of the "crowd".

Crowd "management" and crowd "control" are probably 2 different things. I can hardly imagine any Disney CM getting "rough" with a paying customer in a crowd situation. Tear gas?? Rubber bullets?? Pepper spray?? Of course not. But smiles and kind words would have no effect either. I think discretion is the better part of valor and I'm in agreement with Cwipperman. Less is probably better, especially if you aren't REALLY prepared to back things up with any sort of physical force.

In this case I suppose the "best" solution would have been to give up and just let the crowd go and leave the Park.
Too bad tho--people acting like idiots can sure ruin what might have been a good time.

[Val]

The real solution, beyond the scope of the CM's or guests, is an alternative exit out of the parks...this really helps with fantasmic. Several exits, and I know at least one time where we were lead by CMs through the backstage area to exit to the front of the park thus missing the hordes of people leaving. MK needs a similar solution. Given the reports of huge crowds, hot weather and limited parades/fireworks, mangagment is sitting on a ticking time bomb. People do get irrational (humans aren't actually the most rational animals- we just think we are!).....and management needs to be a step ahead. I just hope that it won't take someone getting seriously hurt to change the traffic flow. I think that my family will stay AWAY from parades and fireworks at MK this year. We've been before, and as much as we love the events it is not worth risking our safety.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Uncleromulus
[
Crowd "management" and crowd "control" are probably 2 different things. I can hardly imagine any Disney CM getting "rough" with a paying customer in a crowd situation. Tear gas?? Rubber bullets?? Pepper spray?? Of course not. But smiles and kind words would have no effect either. I think discretion is the better part of valor and I'm in agreement with Cwipperman. Less is probably better, especially if you aren't REALLY prepared to back things up with any sort of physical force.



This type of situation is not for the average CM that also sells cokes. Disney employs security for these reasons. They also have several types. From uniformed to undercover to those watching the security cameras. If need be Disney could easily have had uniformed security handle a situation. Often the presents of security will calm a situation. Especially if said security has a some beef to it.

[Uncleromulus]

I've seen some security folks over at Pleasure Island with some "beef" to them, but the average "dressed in blue" Disney Security CM's probably aren't able, willing, or even trained, to do battle with a raucous crowd. And I doubt Disney would ever want them doing so..especially in the MK!! Can you imagine the news headlines the next day??

Drunks and other riff-raff regularly "act out" over at PI, but the MK is filled (no pun intended) with families who are sober (hopefully) and there just to see a parade.

So I don't see an awsome security presence doing much to alleviate the situation. Not really sure if a true solution is possible give the nature of the beast. Certainly Disney should give it some further thought, and maybe alternate exits, more parades, etc may provide some easing of the situation.

[EUROPA]

I'm not talking about doing battle...but they have the ability if need be I'm sure. Any time that you have large crowds of people there is always a danger of things getting out of hand. This is nothing-new to today society, as many people posting here would have you think. More exits are not the answer. Have multiple exits really decreases security. Especially if you are searching for a subject. Having one way out and one way in also facilitates closing the park. (I’m sure the learned their lesson with Epcot.) Typically people on vacation are not looking for a reason to riot or cause trouble. When it comes to the point that the person is so upset with the CM currently telling them “NO” or halting their progress the CM must either yield or bring in someone else like security. Just the presents of someone in authority or anyone else at that point will cause them to back down.

[Planogirl]

Whether it's the fault of the patrons or not, crowds do get unruly sometimes. This is true particularly when it's hot and over-crowded. Disney has a responsibility to keep the crowds under control as best they can to protect their property, CM's and the innocent patrons. The question becomes how best to do this?

I definitely feel for the CM's that have to deal with all of this. Disneyland can be difficult too. I recall arguing with a CM who would not let us into a certain area even though we had reservations at the Blue Bayou. I found another route and didn't get nasty as tempting as it was. :rolleyes:

[vellamint]

Well after two evenings on two separate vacations in the Magic Kingdom....one trying to see the Electrical Parade in 2000 and one just trying to see FIS in 2002 (not to mention the horrendous wait for the ferry in 95 degree heat with kids small enough to be suffocated in the pressing crowd) my family will, unfortunately, not even attempt to see Spectromagic if it is only offered on a Saturday night.

We just wont deal with it anymore......

[DaveO]

The one thing I do not like about these boards is that the folks who are not happy with Disney bash them at any moment for every little thing. And the 'Every thing is pixie dust' crowd says everything is fine.

FACT (accoording to Disney web site):

For the time period this 'incident' happened - I refuse to use the word 'riot' :rolleyes: From June 14 - 30 (17 days) they had 14 showings of Spectro - That is hardly ONCE A WEEK. And that does not countany that might have been added due to crowd levels.

I do not agree with shorter hours but folks are just exagerating ...
The truth is always in the middle ....
And if it continuies I will not go back and tell Disney about that fact.

Ok back to lurking ....

Dave O.

God bless America and the Constitution - We just need to follow it !!!!