Half the street shuttered – Now that’s MAGIC!!

[DVC-Landbaron]

I just heard a most disturbing rumor. It seems that a certain cast member picked up the rumor that the stores and/or shops – ALL THE STORES AND/OR SHOPS - in the Magic Kingdom will be closing at 6:00 pm, regardless of what the actual park closing time is.

So if the park stays open until 10 or 11, no matter!! The stores close at six!!

I’m trying to find out if this means Main Street as well, but haven’t gotten an answer yet.

Is there anything to this? Or is it (I hope) just a wild rumor?

[Pete W.]

I have seen some posts suggesting that MK PSs aren't available after 6:00 p.m. this summer so this may support the rumor you heard. Has anyone had luck getting PSs at any MK restaurants after 6:00 p.m. for July or August?

[wdwguide]

That'd puzzle me - those stores cost next to nothing to operate and are pure profit for them...

[KNWVIKING]

That would be truely bizarre. You're in the park,you see the plush thru the window,but they won't let you buy it.

I think with this rumor, seeing is definitely believing. Closing your profit centers makes no sense.

[C.Ann]

Surely someone is pulling your leg! That would be absolutely devastating to an already troubled Disney World and could very well be the straw that breaks the camels back..

On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me in the least as it seems that's what Disney managment does best - alienate their customers!! :mad:

[RyMickey]

I don't know about all the stores, but it is TRUE, folks. I was there up until Tuesday, and all the Agrabah stores were closed by 6:00pm, and while there on Monday morning, they weren't even open by 11:30am. Mickey's Star Traders in Tomorrowland was open late, as were all the stores along Main Street. As for the Fantasyland stores and the Splash Mountain store (not the store by Splashdown Photos), I can't be sure. While having the Agrabah stores shuttered didn't look bad, I agree that I don't see the point in having them closed. However, if closing the stores allows the parks and rides to stay open later, I'm all for it.

RyMickey

[d-r]

Have you guys ever played roller coaster tycoon? I was thinking about something the other day. If you have your park set to an entrance fee for the whole park (vs. free entry and pay per ride), then you have two ways of making money, getting people to come in, and selling them stuff (ride pictures, souv., food and drink). So if you get a full park, it isn't the best thing for you in RCT. You would be better to get people to leave and get new people to come in and pay the entrance. While they still have money, it is better to close all the attractions for a while so they will all go shopping and eating and drinking. If you have a bunch of people that have been there a long time and ran out of money, you do better to close all your restrooms so they will leave the park and new guests will come to pay the entrance fee.

Anyway, I don't think they would close the stores if there is anybody in the park with a buck left in their wallet.

DR

[Lewisc]

From Screamscape:
The latest rumors from CMs claim that something really wild is afoot for the Merchandise shops. The following information is only about the shops in Liberty Square, Adventureland and Frontierland. Starting June 15th until at least October 1st (end of the Disney fiscal year) all shops other than Pirates Bazaar, Big Al’s & Splash Photo will not open until 11am and will close early at 6:30pm regardless of what time the park closes. I’ve heard rumors coming down the pipe (mostly from Disneyland) claiming that Jay Rasulo was going to demand some major budget cuts from the Merchandise department... something that would make former bossman Paul Pressler roll in his grave. (If he were dead that is... he’s just moved on to The Gap, though there are many who will debate the difference.)

I doubt they'll close main street but it sounds like the're considering closing some shops.

[EUROPA]

Wait a darn second here....Will I still be able to get a $2.50 coke? ....."Yes"...Ok good the magic is preserved.

If you see my other reply on the thread titled "Pirates of the Carribean" you will see that is because they are going to reprogram the Pirates, Haunted Mansion Ghost, Small World Chrildern and so on to sell t-shirts and drinks. So you get the great ride and you buy a haunted Mansion T-shirt at the same time. They are going to install Credit Card readers on each of the figures so there will be no waiting. The sad part is if nobody buys anything on your boat or doombuggy they you keep ridding until you do.

[KNWVIKING]

"The sad part is if nobody buys anything on your boat or doombuggy they you keep ridding until you do."

Uh.... What's the sad part about staying on the ride ? Sounds more like an incentive then a penalty.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
[B
Uh.... What's the sad part about staying on the ride ? Sounds more like an incentive then a penalty. [/B]


....its a small world after all........its a small world after all........its a small world after all........its a small world after all........its a small world after all........its a small world after all........its a small world after all........its a small world after all........its a small world after all........its a small world after all........its a small world after all........its a small world after all........its a small world after all........its a small world after all........its a small world after all........its a small world after all........its a small world after all........its a small world after all.....

Two trips around and you jump out of the boat and start ripping heads off the kids.:eek:

[HB2K]

Europa-

While they're at it, they'll change the soundtrack...


"It's a small world after all....BUY THE SHIRT.....it's a small world after all.....BUY THE MUG....it's a small world after all....DON'T FORGET THE PLUSH....it's a small, small world."

[KNWVIKING]

....[/B]... I see this after quotes.

Yeah, I guess getting stuck on IASW has it's downside. By boat though I was thinking more along the lines of POTC and JC.

[Luvdisney]

I have a dinner PS at Liberty Tavern at the end of July and was told the last seating is at 5:45 PM, which I questioned and the CM thought that it was strang as well. since MK closes late that nite. But no one has been able to give me any good reason for it until I read this thread. So, it does look like Disney is shutting some things down early during the summer. My guess it is a staffing issue, since they laid off so many CM's last year. I wondered if the ever started hiring again since the hours have been extended. Maybe they just don't have enough CM's to staff every thing for the longer hours. Disney probably thinks we won't notice.:rolleyes:

[Peter Pirate]

We were at DL recently and the shops along Main Street were all closed the moment the Park ended. This trend has been coming, and Europa getting a 2.50 coke becomes pretty tough in some locales late in the day (MGM for instance).

This move is really bizarre and I don't understand it one little bit. It rarely affects my visits as shopping is not one of the magical things at Disney (for me) but it seems truly bizarre and actually counterprodutive and I'll admit itakes away fom the festive atmosphere.

I would seriously like to know the rationale from a financial standpoint. gcurling?

[luvmk]

I don't understand the timing of this. The FTP starts the first of July. According to Disney, it has been wildly successful. I've often read of people not being able to get their first choice resort. Disney has also lengthend the package into Nov. It doesn't make sense to start closing down the shops and restaurants when you are expecting masses of people. If for nothing else, it allows more areas for people to go so that they aren't all packed into the same stores and restaurants. I don't know if many other people are like me, but when I get to disney, especially MK, I decide that ALL of our clothes should be disney and I then start to think that I should redecorate our house with all disney.:) Fortunately, my family stops me before I bankrupt us!:D

I guess it just doesn't make sense not to offer the best product and experience you possibly can. My guess is that there are a lot of first time visitors that are taking advantage of the FTP. I hope they don't feel slighted. Since they are first timers, they may not notice what the rest of us will.

[KNWVIKING]

.... have you every taken notice of the activity inside the main street shops at closing or just after fireworks ? The shops become an extension of the actual street. People flood thru the shops as an additional means to exit the park. Now, if you know anything about shoplifting, you know this is like paradise to shoplifters. You might as well just throw your product out onto the street. I don't know how much shrinkage occurs in the shops during the Main Street Stroller Grand Prix but if theft is going to occur,that's the time to do it.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
.... have you every taken notice of the activity inside the main street shops at closing or just after fireworks ? The shops become an extension of the actual street. People flood thru the shops as an additional means to exit the park. Now, if you know anything about shoplifting, you know this is like paradise to shoplifters. You might as well just throw your product out onto the street. I don't know how much shrinkage occurs in the shops during the Main Street Stroller Grand Prix but if theft is going to occur,that's the time to do it.

It's not main street and they are closing down the stores hours before the park closes so that is not the issue.

[C.Ann]

Of course it could be another of Disney's wildly "successful" marketing ploys where they give something with one hand, and yank something else away with the other..:rolleyes: You know FTP equals closing shops..

Or - it may be another scenario like the Character Van - just giving us customers what we wanted.. Who wants to buy Disney stuff anyhow?? :rolleyes:

I swear - I have to wonder if the people in charge are all on drugs or something.. They are killing Disney World bit by bit...

[hopemax]

I just thought of something, don't know if it's why or not, but it's the only thing I can think of. A few years ago DL, shuttered a bunch of things around July 17th. The same questions were asked, why would all of this stuff stop the week of DL's actual 45th birthday?

The rumored culprit was, that as DL approached the end of it's fiscal year, there wasn't enough money to fund everything. Given the state of the rest of the company, and the attitude Burbank has for the parks these days, it's not like the parks can go ask Burbank for money, no matter if the crowds are there or not.

DL took the path of decreasing operating hours of many of it's attractions (Mark Twain, Tiki Room, Toontown), and shutting a few down altogether (Jolly Trolley). The reaction to that was, "People come to ride the rides, why shut them down!"

Now, if WDW is facing a similar budget crunch, which kinda makes sense. They were given budget for a certain level of crowds, and if it's higher (or is projected to be higher because of the FTP) they know they are going to need extra staffing on the attractions, custodial, security. The money has to come from somewhere, and if Burbank isn't going to give them anymore, it means cuts at WDW. WDW seems to be taking the "leave the attractions alone" route, and even re-opening COP (which is good), and shutting secondary services like shopping and dining.

As a guest, which would you prefer? Attractions closing early, or something else?

In DL, October came, the new budget was released and many of the summer cutbacks were rescinded.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by hopemax

As a guest, which would you prefer? Attractions closing early, or something else?


None of the above it's not my problem I paid full price for the Ticket.

[KNWVIKING]

Half the threads I read here people complain and poke fun at all the stores in MK that sell nothing put worthless stuff,all rides exit into the gift shop, Pressler did this,did that,etc,etc.....

Now WDW is going to close some of these very stores early- possibly ,as hopemax posted, as a means to keep rides open- and we still complain.

[hopemax]

See, I thought that too, but I was misinformed, I have been informed that Disney is a business and all that ticket guarantees is admission if the park is open, during non-special events. The ticket is no guarantee that the park will have attractions, shops, restaurants, entertainment or minimum hours.

If the park is open, and you are admitted, the obligation is fulfilled! It's only out of the goodness of Disney's heart that all those other things are provided, and because at some point the crazy dead guys thought it would be good business to actually provide something once you clicked through the turnstyle.

So since you are not entitled to attractions or anything else, if you could gratiously request that WDW operates either attractions or shops & restaurants, which would you prefer?


:D :bounce: :rolleyes: :bounce: ;) :bounce:

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by hopemax
So since you are not entitled to attractions or anything else, if you could gratiously request that WDW operates either attractions or shops & restaurants, which would you prefer?


See I don't play by those limits. I would just not go...hence my absence from DW until they fix their problems.


KNWVIKING-I think if you look back you will see most people are upset with TDS not the shops in the parks. As it turns out the shops in the parks are the only places where you can now get certain Disney items. I've never really complained about a ride exiting into a shop. In fact I sort of like it.

[blackshirt]

These cuts are just another of the seemingly neverending examples of the short sightedness of today's Disney(Eisner) Disney offered excellent incentives to visit this summer(out of desperation, IMO, or the possibility of empty resorts) Now, when people respond with reservations and money to spend, do you do your best to WOW them as much as possible? Heck no, those suckers have already paid, cut back even more, have a GREAT quarter, get that stock price up just enough to exercise those options or to sell what you have(Eisner). Will those customers be back any time soon? Nope, but who cares, we won't be working here a few years from now. Let the new guys worry about how to save the parks.
I hope my reasoning is faulty somewhere along the line, but the trends( One thing I'm good at is trends) don't look good.:(

[C.Ann]

I think I have to agree with the theory that if you pay a certain price for the "whole" of the parks - then that is what you should be getting.. Isn't the initial price based on ALL they have to offer?

For some people the entire highlight of their trip is browsing through the shops at the end of the day and picking up this doo-dad or that.. I mean who wants to lug them around all day because you can't make your purchases on the way out? And yes - I know - there are lockers - FOR A FEE..

And what about the folks that like to have a late meal? Seems the PS's are also having an early cut off now..

I don't think people should have to pick "either/or".. When they purchase their tickets they base their decision as to whether or not they are getting an equal value for that money on EVERYTHING in the parks - not just the rides.. Believe me - not everyone is a ride fanatic and I happen to be one who isn't.. I admittedly don't buy a lot of souveniers in the parks but browsing in those shops on the way out is EVERY bit as enjoyable to me as the rides are to the "riders"..

The riders and the non-riders should have equal access to whatever is in the parks.. After all, they DID pay the same price for their tickets - didn't they?????:confused:

[hopemax]

First, y'all know I'm playing Devil's Advocate here. Personally, I've taken the stance, "let me know when you are able to run full hours for attractions, shops, restaurants and entertainment, and I MAY consider visiting again."

I think I have to agree with the theory that if you pay a certain price for the "whole" of the parks - then that is what you should be getting.. Isn't the initial price based on ALL they have to offer?

And where is the "whole" of the parks defined, and what is ALL? Is there anything, anywhere that spells out that admission to the MK entitles you to a certain number of rides, shops & restaurants or is it still only an assumption on your part?

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by hopemax
And where is the "whole" of the parks defined, and what is ALL? Is there anything, anywhere that spells out that admission to the MK entitles you to a certain number of rides, shops & restaurants or is it still only an assumption on your part?
---------------------------

I think it's quite clearly "defined" in all of their advertisements, brochures, maps to the parks, their own web site, "Come-Spend-Your-Money-At-Disney" videos, and on and on..

I don't recall any of those things stating "these are optional features (at our discretion) and NOT included in your admission price.."

I think that's a pretty clear definition of ALL - and not an "assumption" by any means..

[KNWVIKING]

"KNWVIKING-I think if you look back you will see most people are upset with TDS not the shops in the parks. "


Recent threads have been pretty critical of TDS and for good reason. I was refering mostly to the posts in general thruout various thread topics where people take potshots at all shops WDW is opening.

[mickey2001]

Remember that most of the FTP people going are new to Disney and very excited to be going for a first time visit or one in a long absence of time. Disney figures these new guests will know no better and wont care! Whats a few complaints from the regulars that get filed in the trash.
Disney thinks it makes perfectly good business for a company that needs money fast! The thing that worries me with a smaller staff and somewhat larger crowds will be security at the parks!:confused:

[KNWVIKING]

"I think it's quite clearly "defined" in all of their advertisements, brochures, maps to the parks, their own web site, "Come-Spend-Your-Money-At-Disney" videos, and on and on..

I don't recall any of those things stating "these are optional features (at our discretion) and NOT included in your admission price.."

I think that's a pretty clear definition of ALL - and not an "assumption" by any means.."


So when I go in Dec and Blizzard Beach is closed I can expect a discount on my UPH because a portion of ALL is closed ?

Of course I'm being facitious but Disney park passes do not guarantee you that anything will be open when you get there, but obviously it's in everybodies best interest that as much as possible IS open.

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
"I think it's quite clearly "defined" in all of their advertisements, brochures, maps to the parks, their own web site, "Come-Spend-Your-Money-At-Disney" videos, and on and on..

I don't recall any of those things stating "these are optional features (at our discretion) and NOT included in your admission price.."

I think that's a pretty clear definition of ALL - and not an "assumption" by any means.."


So when I go in Dec and Blizzard Beach is closed I can expect a discount on my UPH because a portion of ALL is closed ?

Of course I'm being facitious but Disney park passes do not guarantee you that anything will be open when you get there, but obviously it's in everybodies best interest that as much as possible IS open.
--------------------------------

I think you're comparing apples to oranges.. Rehabs such as BB are EXPECTED - and usually announced MONTHS in advance..

Do you really think they are going to ANNOUNCE these new closures in advance of people arriving (who are fully expecting these things to be opened)? From what has been posted on these boards people have only learned about the PS's upon calling - and I see nothing on Disney's official site announcing the early closure of restaurants and shops..

Perhaps Disney would do well to abide by my late father's Golden Rule - "You never get a SECOND chance to make a FIRST impression.."

[Pinnie]

I am pretty sure this all boils down to staffing.

Face it, CMs were cut to the bone and now with the advent of the summer promotions taking off, I think they are being caught short.

I have friends that work in the Mechantile at WL and all FT CMs are REQUIRED to work 6 days and all PT CMS are on a 5 day a week schedule. They are being pulled to retail areas all over the resorts and parks.

I do believe that staffing will be given priority at resorts.

pin

[KNWVIKING]

"I think you're comparing apples to oranges.. Rehabs such as BB are EXPECTED - and usually announced MONTHS in advance.."

As I stated, I wasn't serious about the anology, I was just following up with the proposal hopemax made about park media.

Sometimes it is difficult to remember that the majority of the posters on this board love Disney. Every time Disney does anything, it gets ripped to shreads. Spinner ride addition-cheap. EE- not a family ride.PG-13 movie-blasphamy.M:S- whatever it cost,it wasn't enough,plus Disney had to get HP to build it. No matter what the topic, it has to get a negative view. Come on,WDW is closing stores that will suck cash out of your pocket.That's BAD ???? If they are doing this because of manpower shortages you would think the evil ME would shut down rides rather then stores because the only cash you're getting from SM is what falls out of peoples pockets.

It easy to understand why Safari Steve quite posting here.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
"

Sometimes it is difficult to remember that the majority of the posters on this board love Disney. Every time Disney does anything, it gets ripped to shreads.

It easy to understand why Safari Steve quite posting here.

OH please! There are far more "Disney can do no wrong posters" here then there are "Disney is going to hell in a handbasket" and you know it.

...and there is no such thing as a manpower shortage in Flordia durning summer.

[KNWVIKING]

"OH please! There are far more "Disney can do no wrong posters" here then there are "Disney is going to hell in a handbasket" and you know it."


NO I don't know it. I feel the car 3-4's are by far the most vocal on this board. And whenever a car 1 person tries to express their opinion they become the target of snid comments and wind up saying to hell with this board and go elsewhere. Post a trip report here that state everything was perfect. It will be on page 2 before lunch time. But post a misleading topic such as "Disney to young moviegoers: GET LOST " and it will go for weeks.

"...and there is no such thing as a manpower shortage in Flordia durning summer."

manpower-no. good manpower- yes.

[Peter Pirate]

OH please! There are far more "Disney can do no wrong posters here' than there are 'Disney is going to hell in a handbasket' posters and you know it.
Are you serious? Here on the rumors & news board?

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
. good manpower- yes.

Was this the same no-good-manpower they have been letting go over the past 3 years? Wonder what changed? They were good enough to be working for Disney when the money was flowing in. Now it's tough to get good help?




Are you serious? Here on the rumors & news board?


Regular posters here? I'd say about 50/50. Blow the whistle and suddenly you will see "Disney Rose Colored Glasses" all over this place.

[KNWVIKING]

"Was this the same no-good-manpower they have been letting go over the past 3 years? Wonder what changed? They were good enough to be working for Disney when the money was flowing in. Now it's tough to get good help?"

I didn't say why there wasn't good manpower. I agree,Disney's past lay-offs have cost them a great asset- qualified,dedicated,enthusiastic workers. These people are working for Gaylord Palms,Seaworld and several other top-notch places.

"Regular posters here? I'd say about 50/50. Blow the whistle and suddenly you will see "Disney Rose Colored Glasses" all over this place."

eh, more like 60-40 negative.

Explain "Blow the whistle" .... I don't get it.

[C.Ann]

I think the problem here is that the minute anyone says ANYTHING negative about Disney, the die-hard I'll-put-up-with-anything-fans just automatically assume we are totally anti-Disney..

Nothing could be further from the truth.. It's quite possible to love Disney - yet at the same time view it without the rose colored glasses and worry about where it - and it's image - are headed..

I LOVE coffee - but I dislike cold coffee..

I LOVE my DH - but there are some little quirks he has that I really dislike.

I LOVE my van - but it's been having some problems off and on lately.. Does that mean I would never buy that same kind again? Not necessarily...

I LOVE Disney.. But do I think they're in BIG trouble and only making matters worse for themselves? You bet your life I do...

-----------------------

By the way - I'm headed back to Disney World in December!!;)

[KNWVIKING]

"I LOVE my DH - but there are some little quirks he has that I really dislike."

But do you nag him to death over those little quirks, or just realize that is who is. And maybe,just maybe, you have a few quirks too ? :-)

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING

I didn't say why there wasn't good manpower. I agree,Disney's past lay-offs have cost them a great asset- qualified,dedicated,enthusiastic workers. These people are working for Gaylord Palms,Seaworld and several other top-notch places.


Explain "Blow the whistle" .... I don't get it.

So much for the Bad economy nice to hear someone admit that even though Disney is having problems and laying off people that other tourist attractions in the area have the abilty to hire those people.


Blow the whistle- Poster that come here to dive bomb and "pixie dust the place" from time to time. You will usally find these posters on the Community board. They seem to come in droves

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
"I LOVE my DH - but there are some little quirks he has that I really dislike."

But do you nag him to death over those little quirks, or just realize that is who is. And maybe,just maybe, you have a few quirks too ? :-)
------------------------------------------------

My husband doesn't charge me the fees that Disney does to "have to put up with little quirks" - nor do I charge him to put up with mine.. ;)

And sadly, I don't see Disney's quirks as being little..:( They're BIG - and getting much, much bigger...

[DVC-Landbaron]

Well!! How we digress!! Don’t ya just love it!!

Anyway, I have some more info. Lewisc, who copied a Screamscape item is EXACTLY correct!! Let’s rerun it just to make sure we all understand it.

The latest rumors from CMs claim that something really wild is afoot for the Merchandise shops. The following information is only about the shops in Liberty Square, Adventureland and Frontierland. Starting June 15th until at least October 1st (end of the Disney fiscal year) all shops other than Pirates Bazaar, Big Al’s & Splash Photo will not open until 11am and will close early at 6:30pm regardless of what time the park closes.

So Main Street is safe (for the moment). But I thought this bit was especially interesting:

I’ve heard rumors coming down the pipe (mostly from Disneyland) claiming that Jay Rasulo was going to demand some major budget cuts from the Merchandise department... something that would make former bossman Paul Pressler roll in his grave. (If he were dead that is... he’s just moved on to The Gap, though there are many who will debate the difference.)

Well, not quite true. At least for WDW. It seems, according to my source, that these cuts have already been demanded. Hence, the ‘new & improved’ hours. So folks as The Who so aptly said:

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss



Now to the tangent this thread has taken:

KNWVIKING
Every time Disney does anything, it gets ripped to shreads. Spinner ride addition-cheap. EE- not a family ride.PG-13 movie-blasphamy. M:S- whatever it cost, it wasn't enough, plus Disney had to get HP to build it. No matter what the topic, it has to get a negative view.
Tell me. Is there anything positive you see in those you mentioned?

Tell me. Is there ANYTHING within the past several years that can really be viewed as ‘positive’.

Come on,WDW is closing stores that will suck cash out of your pocket.That's BAD ????
That’s bad!!!??? My friend, that's TERRIBLE!!! All those shops and all those eateries are part of the SHOW! The experience. The 'SHOW experience' that Walt envisioned.

Don’t believe me? Check it out with Walt. Way back in the day an area manager shut down a small fast food place a couple hours early (I think it was the place in Adventureland near the Tiki Birds, but I’m not sure). Anyway, Walt ambled by and asked why it was closed. The manager said that for weeks no one EVER came to the stand after a certain time. So, to save a bit of money he let the staff go and closed the place. Walt looked around and said, “Open it again. It’s a bad show to have things closed when there are guests present.”

Now do you ‘Get It’?

[KNWVIKING]

Well, let me try.

Over in Adventure land there was this area of asphault, nothing on it, just there. Now there is a cute,simple spinner ride. Always seems to have a line,seems popular enough. I've riden it a couple times,actually prefer it to that other "classic" spinner named Dumbo. This was a simple addition to Adventureland. I see that as a positive.

EE: Everybody agrees AK needs more. EE is a big more. I won't start the EE debate again, but I see EE as a positive.

M:S: Let's see, Disney got someone else to build & pay for an E ticket ride that from the reviews I've been reading sounds like a pretty awesome ride. I see a positve there.

PG-13: Not quite in the same catagory as the above three items in terms of positive/negative but to condeme an unseen movie and Disney based on a PG-13,(especially after reading D-R's and AV's posts on the topic) smacks of people looking for anything they can hang a negative spin on.


"Tell me. Is there ANYTHING within the past several years that can really be viewed as ‘positive’."

Well, my first trip to WDW was '95. Despite what the majority opinion is on this board, I truely enjoy AK and with the addition of EE is iceing on the cake for me.

When did Fantasmic start ? I don't know,but I don't think it's that old a show.

I think Illuminations is an awesome show as was the millenium parade.

As a DVC member, I greatly enjoy the addition of VWL and BCV.

When did Toontown and BB open, I don't recall them on my '95 or '97 trips ? If they were there...nevermind.

TT is fairly new,but it may not qualify depending on your definition of "past several years".


"That’s bad!!!??? My friend, that's TERRIBLE!!! All those shops and all those eateries are part of the SHOW! The experience. The 'SHOW experience' that Walt envisioned."

A friend of mine was at MK back in '74-'75, some high school senior trip. He says that back then all the "show" had to offer was a couple hotdog stands.

I'm not saying the closings are a good thing. Hopemax posted what I'll assume is a factual post about a similar occurance in DL. Because of a lack of funds, they choose to close the shops to reduce payroll rather then rides based on the valid logic that guests were paying admission to go on rides,not go shopping. If MK is in the same situation now, isn't closing some shops at six a better option then shutting down rides or closing the entire park early ?

[hopemax]

Perhaps, we better find out if my guess is even accurate. AV, Scoop, anyone?

[manning]

Now we know where ex-airline executives go to work at.:jester:

[laceemouse]

I'm no accountant folks, but someone explain to me how a shop which charges out the ying-yang for snacks and stuff can possibly NOT bring in enough cash to pay a couple of CM's who barely make more than minimum wage??? Something just does not add up here to me. I agree with Walt, while I don't go to WDW to shop, seeing shops closed would just not look good at all!!! I usually have my WDW rose-colored glasses on most of the time, but shop closings STINK!!!!

[KNWVIKING]

"but someone explain to me how a shop which charges out the ying-yang for snacks and stuff can possibly NOT bring in enough cash to pay a couple of CM's who barely make more than minimum wage???"

I don't think it's a matter of the stores not covering the employees wages, I think MK is just shorthanded. It seems to me they are moving store CM's out to the rides.

[airlarry!]

KNWVIKING:

Let me see if I can summarize your points here:

1. The Dead Guy used to have a park filled with Hot Dog Stands.

2. Closing the stores only means we don't have to buy plush.

3. Car 3'ers hate to read trip reports where people have fun.

I am not sure how to say this, but you can't be more wrong. In fact, other than that Walt is no longer alive, I can't say that I agree with a single thing you've said here.

I've been to WDW every five years basically since 1972, and there has always been more than hot dog stands at the parks. Your buddy is dead wrong.

There are not many of us here who adore mountains of plush filling every corner of the world, true, but there are many of us here who zig when others zag. That means we like to shop early in the day, even at lunch time, to stay away from the crowds, and then while they tour the shops near closing time, we're sneaking that last ride on Pirates. This bone-headed decision (which IMO is clearly budgetarily driven) means MORE crowds throughout the day clogging up the stores and walkways. Ugh.

On your last point, I wonder aloud how long you've been on this board. EVERY year we wait with baited breath ;) for the various posters...especially Car 3 posters....who give us their State of the World addresses, beginning with the King, Lord Baron. His posts have always been filled with pixie dust and magic and wonderful vacations...although this year's was a little bit rougher than usual. No one bumped him down, no one ridiculed him, in fact, most people enjoyed how he was able to enjoy his vacation despite the cut-backs...something about wonderful CMs, great shows, and the still palpable sense that some in the company believe in Walt's philosophies.

I'm sorry M. Viking, but I just don't agree with you. We may be negative on the future of WDW, but that doesn't mean that we don't love this Company and its history and its parks any less than you do.

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
[BI don't think it's a matter of the stores not covering the employees wages, I think MK is just shorthanded. It seems to me they are moving store CM's out to the rides. [/B]

-----------------------

And WHY are they so short-handed? We had a very popular large department store in our area that people used to love to shop in.. Had really great bargains.. But greed set in and in order to beef up their financial worth, they cut way back on their help - even during the busiest season.. Customers became disgruntled -customer service was sorely lacking - and no one wanted to stand in the one line that was open for a half-hour to pay for a $5 item.. Sales slacked off dramatically..

They went out of business..

Disney doesn't HAVE to be shorthanded - they CHOOSE to be - and the paying customers are made to suffer because of it..

What Disney fails to see is that ultimately THEY will suffer because of it as well.. They have a bad habit of doing things that come back to bite them - and I don't think this latest brain storm is going to be any different..

Oh - and just out of curiosity.. How wonderful would you feel about Disney if they did the reverse - closed RIDES so the SHOPS and RESTAURANTS could stay open later? I kind of get the feeling from your posts that absolutely ANYTHING Disney does (or will do in the future) is A-okay with you.. Have you no bottom line at all?

[Another Voice]

"..the car 3-4's are by far the most vocal on this board"

Because thinking only magical thoughts didn't keep the Disney Stores open and all those thousand of Disney Story cast members employed.

Because simply accepting all the quirks and things that happened did not cause all those millions of missing guests to suddenly show up at California Adventure or to book rooms at the quickly mothballed Pop Century Resort.

Because saying "well, the kids might like it anyway" isn't going to put another quality animated movie on the screen that the public will rush to see.

Because the vast majority of the paying public are not pin-trading DVC memembers who couldn't possible think of any place else to go; they are hard working people who have to save up lots of money - it's they that spend the billions that keeps WDW going, not the few annual passholders.

Because living in a world where only "the right kind of thinking" is permitted and running away from reality does nothing to keep Disney a functional company.

It's the head in the sand mentality within Disney itself has given us Go.com, ABC, Fox Family, Disney Studios Paris, 102 Dalmatians 2: The Animated Sequel, a $300 million liability on the 'Pooh' contract and $15 billion in debt that has the vultures circling. And it's the head-in-pixie dust mentality among the fans that convinces those management types they can make money no matter how poor the product they turn out. Do you honestly think anyone in Disney believed there was a market for Atlantis 2: Milo's Return' besides the buy-anything brand monkeys?

"Disney" isn't a magical place that magical creates wonders that the entire world magically loves. It's a troubled company in a tough business that is currently lead by rather ineffective people. Ignoring the problems – and demanding that others shut-up about them – only serves to make those problems worse.

[KNWVIKING]

"I am not sure how to say this, but you can't be more wrong. In fact, other than that Walt is no longer alive, I can't say that I agree with a single thing you've said here."

Actually, I don't recall saying anything at all about Walt being dead so I guess we can disagree about everthing :-)


""I've been to WDW every five years basically since 1972, and there has always been more than hot dog stands at the parks. Your buddy is dead wrong."

I'll take your word for it, but my buddy isn't the only person whose told me that. The CM who escorted our KTtK tour even made mention of the lack of locations and varity back in the old days.


OOOPS. Had to pick my wife up at work five minutes ago...finish later.

[KNWVIKING]

"Oh - and just out of curiosity.. How wonderful would you feel about Disney if they did the reverse - closed RIDES so the SHOPS and RESTAURANTS could stay open later? I kind of get the feeling from your posts that absolutely ANYTHING Disney does (or will do in the future) is A-okay with you.. Have you no bottom line at all?"

You couldn't be more wrong. I am very critical of a lot of the things I see at WDW, but I'm also a "glass half full" type person.

We all know ME did some bone headed things in the past that have had a negative affect on WDW and DL. But we can't do anything about that. I would love all the parks to open at 8 am and close at midnite.I'd love more thrill rides,more dark rides, more fireworks,more everything. I'd like unlimited CM's waiting on me hand and foot. But I know that isn't going to happen any time soon. And replacing ME tomorrow isn't going to make that happen either.

[KNWVIKING]

I wouldn't exactly say your three point summary of my post is what I was trying to say.

"2. Closing the stores only means we don't have to buy plush."

Now did I really say that. Or did I say something to the affect that post's in the past by many members of this board have taken pot shots at all the plush stores in WDW. No new rides,but plenty of new plush shops. Now it appears those same posters are outraged that these very shops would be closed after 6 pm.


"There are not many of us here who adore mountains of plush filling every corner of the world, true, but there are many of us here who zig when others zag. That means we like to shop early in the day, even at lunch time, to stay away from the crowds, and then while they tour the shops near closing time, we're sneaking that last ride on Pirates."

Thank you. Finally a reason why the shops should remain open till closing that I can understand. Great stratagy.You zagger's have a very good reason to be upset with the stores closing early.


"3. Car 3'ers hate to read trip reports where people have fun."

I don't think I specified a particular Car. And to expand a bit, this is true of the DVC board also. It's not that we/they dislike reading them, it's just my observation positive reports fade fast unless you throw in a " everything was great BUT.....". Guess it's just human nature.

"We may be negative on the future of WDW, but that doesn't mean that we don't love this Company and its history and its parks any less than you do."

Never said you didn't. I just said that sometimes it's hard to remember that you's do when I read your threads.


As for Baron's state of the world address: Has that happened yet this year ? I thought his last trip post was an abbriviated one. I'll have to go back and check. I've been posting on this board for a little over a year,very little at first,more often lately.I read one a year ago though.

After awhile you get to know what to expect from various posters as I'm sure you've formed an opinion about me. Baron is one of the harshest critcs IMO. Then he goes and posts his pixie dust trip reports.This is going to be hard to explain, but in a way he is a perfect example of my Car 1.5 position. If I had never been to WDW but spent all my time reading these boards, then I don't think I'd ever want to go. The place must suck. Everything from chicken fingers to toilet paper, $2.50 sodas to Charactor Caravan. On and on and on. Then Baron post his report and he has a great time. Well, since '97, I go 3-4 times a year and regardless of what I read here I have a GREAT time. Last week we stayed on I-Drive and did a mostly non-WDW activities- IOA,US,SW,WnWild,etc. I know some people love the ides at IOA and US and awhile back there was a mega thread about IOA/US out-valueing WDW, but from what I experience, they have a LONG way to go to catch Disney,even in it's current state.

Ok, it's late and I'm rambling. nuff said.

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
[BYou couldn't be more wrong. I am very critical of a lot of the things I see at WDW, but I'm also a "glass half full" type person.

[/B]

I think ALL of us who love Disney TRY to see the "best" side of it but there comes a time when we step back and say, "Now wait a minute.. Is that half a glass still worth the value of a full glass?"

As someone else pointed out here, we're not all DVC folks - we're not all stock holders - and a whole BUNCH of us are extremely lucky to get to Disney World every few years, if that..

It's extremely frustrating - and terribly disappointing - to be sold a bill of goods - work hard, pinch pennies, scrape up money from whatever sources are available to reach our goal (and our destination) - only to find the game plan has changed entirely and we really aren't getting what we paid for.. It's the unpleasant "surprises" that set the tone - not the mind set that we leave home with..

As I said earlier, I'm going to Disney World in December - and one of the things I was MOST looking forward to was the Osborne Lights.. Well.....we all know the story on that one.. :( I'm EXTREMELY disappointed - but I'm STILL trying to remain upbeat and optimistic - hoping that I'll have a wonderfully magical time.. Unfortunately it's becoming harder and harder.. I wish that Disney and their "cut this, slash that" mentality wasn't something that I have to worry about for the next 6 months.. Who knows what ELSE will be hacked away by the time I get there?

I don't see that as being anti-Disney.. I see that as having to deal with the ugly realities of where Disney stands today..

[KNWVIKING]

"As someone else pointed out here, we're not all DVC folks - we're not all stock holders - and a whole BUNCH of us are extremely lucky to get to Disney World every few years, if that.."

Actually, I feel that the "every few years" visitor has an advantage over me. While I love going frequently, the trips I make now are not nearly as memorable or as exciting as my first in '95 or 2nd in '97. I don't think any less of te parks, but they aren't as fresh- for lack of a better word- as they once were. This isn't because I feel they have declined, it's just that I've been there too many times. Hard to explain.

PS: The Osborne lites may have been given a reprieve for this year. I'll keep my fingers crossed for ya.

[blackshirt]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
"Was this the same no-good-manpower they have been letting go over the past 3 years? Wonder what changed? They were good enough to be working for Disney when the money was flowing in. Now it's tough to get good help?"

I didn't say why there wasn't good manpower. I agree,Disney's past lay-offs have cost them a great asset- qualified,dedicated,enthusiastic workers. These people are working for Gaylord Palms,Seaworld and several other top-notch places.

"Regular posters here? I'd say about 50/50. Blow the whistle and suddenly you will see "Disney Rose Colored Glasses" all over this place."

eh, more like 60-40 negative.

Explain "Blow the whistle" .... I don't get it.

Hey, dude, seriously man, what kind of stuff you been doing? Let us all in on the secret here

[DVC-Landbaron]

A friend of mine was at MK back in '74-'75, some high school senior trip. He says that back then all the "show" had to offer was a couple hotdog stands.Mr. King! I advise you to find your friend. Right now!! And when you're face to face with him, clout him in the head with a 2 by 4 and call him a dirty rotten liar!!!! Cause that's what he is. Plain and simple. I was there.

Because of a lack of funds, they choose to close the shops to reduce payroll rather then rides based on the valid logic that guests were paying admission to go on rides, not go shopping. You really have to explain to me why it is that the ONLY (slight hyperbole alert) Division within the company to turn a profit is forced to cut back because of ‘lack of funds’!?? How absurd!!! How ridiculous!! How very, very sad!!

If MK is in the same situation now, isn't closing some shops at six a better option then shutting down rides or closing the entire park early ?Well, maybe that answer will do for you. Maybe you don’t care about underlying reasons. Maybe your ‘half full’ attitude is all it takes to keep the pixie dust in your eyes.

But it isn’t nearly enough for me. I want to know why a company that was founded on Walt’s principle of “Give the people everything you can give them”, can fall so short of the mark. How can they simply ignore this very basic SHOW tenet? How can they have such utter contempt and blatant disregard for the Disney philosophy?

Heck!! It’s this very philosophy that brought most of us to the dance in the first place!! If they succeed in utterly destroying these beliefs they will be no better than Universal or even Six Flags. Just another amusement park, in it for the buck. This is on a par with workmen painting during the day, in plain sight of the guests. But, then again, there are those here that see nothing wrong with that either!!!

[KNWVIKING]

"You really have to explain to me why it is that the ONLY (slight hyperbole alert) Division within the company to turn a profit is forced to cut back because of ‘lack of funds’!?? How absurd!!! How ridiculous!! How very, very sad!!"

How can I explain it. Read my first post:

"I think with this rumor, seeing is definitely believing. Closing your profit centers makes no sense."

Does anybody know why they are closing the stores ? Any idea how long this will go on ? Is it a "quick fix" until new employee's are trained and ready to fill positions ? Any insiders out there care to share some info ? I guess one of the big differences between you and I Mr. Baron is that what I perceive as an annoyance that really isn't going to affect MY vacation experience as it will Airlarry's, you perceive as the systemic downfall of the entire Empire. But you've got 20 years of Disney history on me.

As for what eateries were availible back in the early '70s, I haven't a clue. But my friend had no axe to grind or reason to lie. Two years ago he had just returned from his first trip back to WDW since high school. He was emmensly impressed. His comment was something to the effect of " Man, back in HS all they had were hotdogs and icecream bars. Now,that place is unbelievable".

[crusader]

Give the people everything they want?

Bull. Nobody wants the same thing anymore. Nobody wants to wait one minute longer than they "feel" they should for anything anymore. There is no consideration to your fellow man in this day and age. Exercising humility and patience just isn't fashionable. Instant gratification is the name of the game. So do we satisfy me or you? One of us is bound to lose.

I wonder what Walt would do to handle the barrage of mass indecisiveness and chronic complaining so ramped today? Short of holding counseling forums and distributing pharmaceuticals to the guests, he'd probably give away the store.

OK- that may have been a bit off topic. Since the closing of stores has no bearing on me I could give a rat's @$$. But since the closing of stores may impact someone else, by all means, give them what they want no matter the reason? We should all be entitled to have it all - oh and by the way, did I forget to mention that our overhead has tripled due to insurance, litigation and benefits? So you won't mind paying three times as much for your vacation to help us maintain all services at your full satisfaction.

Afterall - a disney vacation IS a premium vacation and only the elite should be priviledged enough to patronize this fine organization given its' vast array of extravagant indulgences.

[Pinnie]

A standing ovation to the Crusader!


pin

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Pinnie
A standing ovation to the Crusader!


pin


OH please!!! This has nothing to do with customers wanting vastly different things. It has nothing to do with mass indecisiveness.

Disney's overhead has not tripled due to insurance, litigation and benefits? Do you have any proof of that at all. (Litigation - well maybe after the pooh settlement that is coming. Disney's own fault for trying to cheat those people)


What we do have proof is that the Parks for the most park have been increasing in profit percentage or staying the same. While the rest of Disney is in the ****ter. They are not closing the stores down to any of those reasons. They are closing them because ABC is in t he tank. Go.com lost millions. they paid half a billion for Fox Family. The parks are carrying the load for the whole crappy company right now and Disney just can't afford to have Fox Family and keep open stores and restaurants in the MK. So guess who gets the crap end of the stick? Well I can tell you one thing it's not going to be Eisner and his bonus.

[crusader]

Europa -

If you think overhead costs have not tripled you're wrong. The reason you continue to see favorable bottom line figures in the parks is because of all the cutbacks we keep hearing about.

Why would disney be the only corporate giant impervious to inflation? That's a false assumption. You see it - you feel it - you know it. You just don't like it.

They are closing them because ABC is in t he tank. Go.com lost millions. they paid half a billion for Fox Family. The parks are carrying the load for the whole crappy company right now and Disney just can't afford to have Fox Family and keep open stores and restaurants in the MK.

Last time I checked the parks only account for 25-30% of this company. They are not the only thing supporting it. Are they contributing to the failures - yes! - are they a lucrative segment - yes! But they are not Disney in its' entirety and they never were.

I doubt seriously the reason for the store closings is because of their television programming losses or the Go.com failure. There is more going on here.

[Pinnie]

I am still saying the closing of the few shops is due to the lack of staffing and they will reopen once staff is trained.

I can only go by what friends and family members who are CMs there tell me. I do know that one of my friends is starting her 7th straight day today at Frontierland, instead of her usual stint at the WL. She is "part time".

I do think that the company was caught short staffed and that issue needs to be addressed. They offered a package and the public jumped on it. Once staffing catches up to demand, things will reopen again.

pin

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by crusader
Europa -

If you think overhead costs have not tripled you're wrong. The reason you continue to see favorable bottom line figures in the parks is because of all the cutbacks we keep hearing about.

Why would disney be the only corporate giant impervious to inflation? That's a false assumption. You see it - you feel it - you know it. You just don't like it.



What dates are you using? 1970-Today? or are you talking about 1999-Today? You don't see other "corporate giants" doing this type of stuff. McDonalds is not closing down the Frnech Fryiers at 10:00 every night but keeping the coke machine open.

GM is not only supplying 3 tires with every new car.


Has your cost of living tripled in the last 3 years? If not, then Inflation has not tripled in the last three years. As there is a direct correlation between inflation and cost of living.

It's stimple the Theme parks are paying for Eisner's mistakes.

[crusader]

I'm talking since reagonomics. You feel these things today because there is no longer a surge of cash flowing in to help mitigate the excess brought on by corporate greed from every single type of industry. Insurance - professional fees - salaries -benefits- litigation - are the biggest contributors to this mess but just about every supplier is charging 3x more for the same thing.

Just because Disney covered this stuff without you personally feeling it doesn't mean they weren't absorbing the increases all along. Once the attendance dropped, they could no longer afford to maintain status quo so the only options were to cut costs and try to gain more patrons.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by crusader
I'm talking since reagonomics. You feel these things today because there is no longer a surge of cash flowing in to help mitigate the excess brought on by corporate greed from every single type of industry. Insurance - professional fees - salaries -benefits- litigation - are the biggest contributors to this mess but just about every supplier is charging 3x more for the same thing.

Just because Disney covered this stuff without you personally feeling it doesn't mean they weren't absorbing the increases all along. Once the attendance dropped, they could no longer afford to maintain status quo so the only options were to cut costs and try to gain more patrons.

If every supplier is charging 3x more without cutting services or the number of tires they include with a new car. Then what is different about Disney? What makes Disney so special that MCDonalds can just increase prices to match inflation and not have to cut services in the current ecommy? Well I tell you what it is....ABC,GO.com, Sports Teams, Fox Family, Mike Ovitz and so on. That is the difference.



Shorthanded- HA! There is a report on RAPD that they are laying off people in Engineering Services(Maintenance) until the end of the Summer season. Which conincides with a new budget year. Strage uh?

[Pinnie]

Europa,

If you think the car companies are not charging more for less....you need to look in the trunk of a new car! I can remember when you used to buy a new car and get 5 tires!!! Now that "spare" is good only for 50 miles!

I can remember a few weeks ago when Disney raised the prices on a park ticket and the moaning and groaning that accompanied that thread!


pin

[KNWVIKING]

"GM is not only supplying 3 tires with every new car.


Has your cost of living tripled in the last 3 years? If not, then Inflation has not tripled in the last three years. As there is a direct correlation between inflation and cost of living."

Has my personal COL tripled-no. But for the company I work for just health ins. alone has increased tremendously. 2001= $450.00 per month for just the worker. 2003= $750.00. It's even higher for employees with spouses and families. Every year SUI climbs in NJ climbs at a rate higher then the CPI. In general, business expenses escalate at a higher rate then personal ones.

Now, as for GM, well their answer is simple. We sell $45,000.00 pickup trucks.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Pinnie
Europa,

If you think the car companies are not charging more for less....you need to look in the trunk of a new car! I can remember when you used to buy a new car and get 5 tires!!! Now that "spare" is good only for 50 miles!

I can remember a few weeks ago when Disney raised the prices on a park ticket and the moaning and groaning that accompanied that thread!


pin

I've bought 4 cars in the last 6 years and they have all came with a full size spare. Many cars in the 80's-90's carried "the donut". That is nothing new that you can blame on the current Economy.

People complained because Disney continues to take away while increasing prices. A very valid complaint!

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
Has my personal COL tripled-no. But for the company I work for just health ins. alone has increased tremendously. 2001= $450.00 per month for just the worker. 2003= $750.00. It's even higher for employees with spouses and families. Every year SUI climbs in NJ climbs at a rate higher then the CPI. In general, business expenses escalate at a higher rate then personal ones.



You need to move south! My Family insurance has not tripled. I work for a software company. Computers are cheaper and more powerful then they were 3 years ago. Pens still cost about the same..they have not tripled...paper still cost the same. Electricity has not tripled. Water bills have not tripled. Airline tickets have not tripled( they do go up and down) It still cost about the same to rent a car whereever I go.

[mickey2001]

I love reading this board and thread! Only wish Disney did. :o :o :o

[crusader]

Thinking that a company simply raised prices in an inflationary environment without cutting their product or service costs supports the philosophy that you can successfully fool the average consumer.

Manufacturers can substitute raw materials to absorb costs. Food distributors can decrease the size of a product or use chemicals, etc. to replace real ingredients.

Look around you - there is no such thing as a durable good anymore.

Nothing is the way that it was.

Disney is also not the way it was. It may never be as pure as it once was but it can still be a great vacation destination. Selling cheaply made products and charging exorbitant billing rates are predominantly what's being offered in the country and Disney has the same menu we do to choose from.

[KNWVIKING]

"What makes Disney so special that MCDonalds can just increase prices to match inflation and not have to cut services in the current ecommy? "

I like MickeyDee's but this makes me laugh. Not only have they raised prices, they've found a way shave a normal sized burger into enough slices to feed a family of twelve. I think the ketchup stain is actually thicker then the burger.

[mickey2001]

.:jester: :jester: :jester: :Pinkbounc :jester: :jester: :bounce: :o :o :o :o :o

[Pinnie]

Hmm, Europa, you must be talking about a few "high end" cars because I just checked the trunk of my 2003 PT Cruiser and sure enough, it has a "compact tire" aka 50 mile spare!

THAT car came out way after the 80s and 90s.

Same arguement goes for potato chips. Go try and find a bag that is 16 oz! They went to a 14 oz bag at the same price. Now it is 12.5 ounces and guess what? It is now more expensive.

As much as eveyone would love to throw pixie dust around here, and think that the company exists for the sheer JOY of everyone that walks through their gates...it IS a business, pure and simple that has a bottom line to answer and real costs to do business.

pin

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
I like MickeyDee's but this makes me laugh. Not only have they raised prices, they've found a way shave a normal sized burger into enough slices to feed a family of twelve. I think the ketchup stain is actually thicker then the burger.

Well not that I really go to McDonalds a lot...just an example however I do recall the Cheeseburger now being .69 cent when just a few years ago they were .89. Maybe they have gotten smaller to match that price as well. I do know they hae gone from premaking them and letting them sit in a heated shoot to making them when you order.


You see Disney was not always "Just a Business" that is how it is ran by Eisner. When Walt was running the place it was for the sheer Entertainment of his guest..and the place made money hand over fist.



Hmm, Europa, you must be talking about a few "high end" cars because I just checked the trunk of my 2003 PT Cruiser and sure enough, it has a "compact tire" aka 50 mile spare!

THAT car came out way after the 80s and 90s.


You missing my point some cars depending on their price point have always came with a full size tire. Or more appointments. That is nothing new to the current economy as your trying to make it seem.

[Lewisc]

I don't recall reading ANYTHING official regarding shop closing, only a rumor on Screamscape. If they're short staffed I'd rather they close some of the gift shops that are less crowded later in the day so they can properly staff the ones that are open. Makes sense not to take PS if they are considering closing some restaurants early. A lot easier to extend hours than to cancel existing PS.

I think Disney is getting "better" with closing things when the crowds are lighter. Think of the Gallery restaurant in YC, resort buildings (and even entire resorts). Some of it makes sense, why keep a resort open in the off season if bookings are less than 30%?

About a year ago in I was in MK and in the late afternoon they scheduled a 2nd Spectromatic (park was more crowded than expected).

One of the reasons that car makers went to donuts is to give more trunk space (as they shrunk cars). A donut is much easier to put on a car (particularly in the rain).

[KNWVIKING]

"You see Disney was not always "Just a Business" that is how it is ran by Eisner. When Walt was running the place it was for the sheer Entertainment of his guest..and the place made money hand over fist."

Fifty years ago at DL is a different situation then now at WDW. We can only speculate as to what Walt would have been able to accomplish in todays business world.

[crusader]

Not to digress to McDonald's again but I have to clarify one thing. Their burgers have dropped in price for the same reason Disney is offering discounted vacation packages - decline in sales.

The shrinkage of the burgers and substitution of real ingredients has been gradually passed on for years with no reduction in price.When Walt was running the place it was for the sheer Entertainment of his guest..and the place made money hand over fist.

That may be true but Walt started the company and had less mouths to feed. He benefits from a time when Made in America meant something and people were passionate about demonstrating virtue above vice. You can say that about most inventors. When they build something with their bare hands they take pride in the craftmanship and offer a flawless product.

Unfortunately, this is extremely difficult to maintain given the variable cost components. You can try the show approach and keep things open even if they're empty to give the appearance of stability but when the costs keep escalating, something has to give.

[raidermatt]

I am continually amazed at the lengths to which some will go to excuse sub-standard work...be it their own or someone else's.

[crusader]

Well Matt it's safe to assume you're probably directing that at me. You of all people should understand that stating the facts does not mean anything is being excused.

It's easy to say a decrease in quality is bad for business. It's much harder to preserve quality without passing on increases to the consumer. You want to ignore all the variables and apply a macro approach which is fine in theory but not necessarily realistic in practice.

[HB2K]

Fifty years ago at DL is a different situation then now at WDW. We can only speculate as to what Walt would have been able to accomplish in todays business world.
Forget back in Walt's day....wasn't Disney a for profit business 10 years ago (back when the parks were packed and these silly cuts were non-existant)?

I know Disney is just a business....the fact is they just aren't a good one right now. I can't think of ONE successful business model which plans on remaining profitable through customer service cutbacks and leaning on a crutch of supposed never ending brand loyalty.

[DisneyKidds]

I saw this rumor on Screamscape a while ago. I was hoping it wouldn't prove true. Oh well :(. I have to agree with Herr Baron that locked doors and shuttered windows are bad Show. Disney has to find another solution besides slashing costs by cutting services. With all the MBA types they hire you would think they could be a bit more creative.

Now for my regularly scheduled (although less frequent) disagreement with Mr. Baron ;). With respect to Rasulo being a Pressler in sheeps clothing, I'm not ready to agree that the new boss is just the same old, same old. Not yet. Yes, Rasulo may be dictating cuts, just as Pressler did. However, if his cuts result in a quality Expedition Everest whereas Presslers gave us DinoRama - that would be an improvement I think.

[crusader]

I can't think of ONE successful business model which plans on remaining profitable through customer service cutbacks and leaning on a crutch of supposed never ending brand loyalty.
Have you purchased anything from Nike?

Maybe the difference is Disney doesn't have a big enough celebrity endorsement PR war chest to assist in selling their products.

All things aside - I get the point.

What I want to know is this:

How many have really stopped patronizing Disney because of all of this adversity?

Why aren't the recent management decisions being given any consideration?

Why are we automatically presuming this has nothing to do with training in anticipation of the increased attendance?

[DisneyKidds]

How many have really stopped patronizing Disney because of all of this adversity?
Now for the obligatory detour into the attendance arena ;).
Why aren't the recent management decisions being given any consideration?
Well, said actions do not yet represent a trend :eek:.

....................at least these are the answers that most of our 3/4 friends will give you, although I'm not buying everything they are selling.

[HB2K]

How many have really stopped patronizing Disney because of all of this adversity?
I'll raise my hand.

I haven't seen a Disney produced movie all year (Nemo was a Pixar movie Disney happened to distribute....so I like to think I was patronizing Pixar and just tried to ignore the Disney attachment).

I will NOT go to the Disney parks until I see a marked turn around....and closed shops at 6PM isn't that turn around.

Imagine walking around the park and the place is locked up other than the rides....

So all in all I'm voting with my dollars. I refuse to pay premium prices for a second rate vacation.

And yes, the statistics show others are as well.

Why aren't the recent management decisions being given any consideration?

Because talk is cheap....and because as they announce one thing, they hack another.

Why are we automatically presuming this has nothing to do with training in anticipation of the increased attendance?
Because there have been press releases with Ei$ner et al preening like a peacock about the cutbacks in labor in the parks.

It's not a training issue....and even if it was, it's the middle of summer....the training should have been done LONG ago.

[raidermatt]

You want to ignore all the variables and apply a macro approach which is fine in theory but not necessarily realistic in practice. There is nothing unrealistic about it at all. It simply requires a belief, desire, and talent. It is much easier, however, to blend in and follow the crowd. That's fine if your goals are simply to produce the same results as any other schmo. Its just that those types of results don't result in your company having legions of fans and Internet communities based on your company.

How many have really stopped patronizing Disney because of all of this adversity? A never-ending debate around here...

Why aren't the recent management decisions being given any consideration? One of those decisions is exactly what this thread is about...

Why are we automatically presuming this has nothing to do with training in anticipation of the increased attendance? Are you suggesting they might be closing the stores so CMs can be trained? Or did you mean something else?

Even if higher attendance is coming, its going to be higher relative to the same period a year ago, not relative to now. A strong Sept/Oct is still not going to be as busy as June/July.

[crusader]

It simply requires a belief, desire, and talent

They still have to cover the cost increases without charging the customer. This is a big problem and will take alot of talent to disguise behind the curtain.

Because talk is cheap....and because as they announce one thing, they hack another.

Talk is worth nothing if you can't rely on someone's word. Unfortunately this company has damaged its' credibility and it will take much more than a few new attractions to restore consumer confidence and get people back. But the recent decisions are favorable and will make quite a difference which is deserving of some consideration.

The reason for the question is that I don't see as many leaving based on these changes as you imply. I think people are upset about the loss of amenities and are heavily voicing their complaints on a discussion forum but really have no intention of going elsewhere. Deep down they love this place despite its' flaws and can't bring themselves to abandon something which has become almost routine in their lives. They will complain as easily as they will praise because it is such a personal experience.

Are you suggesting they might be closing the stores so CMs can be trained? Or did you mean something else?

I think there is a reason beyond cutbacks and see a substantial shift in mgt's philosophy regarding the parks. This means everyone needs to be handed a refresher course on how to proceed with the new guests coming in to insure they retain this group for future bookings and send everyone home on a positive note. If they have shops empty that's another problem which will have to be incorporated as well. Why waste someone's time at an empty post if you can better utilize these hours by preparing them for what's about to happen.

[DVC-Landbaron]

Mr. Crusader. A few points. First…

You said, in apparent response to my post, and what seemed to spark quite a debate:
Give the people everything they want?
May I ask where you got that from? It certainly wasn’t me. And it most certainly wasn’t Walt. What he said and I printed was: “Give the people everything you can give them”. You may consider it a minor variance of a few words, but it is truly vastly different in both intent and meaning. It is a difference so vast and so basic to Walt’s philosophy that it could very well be the most salient. The difference that quite possibly put Disney miles ahead of the competition.

I will grant you that Walt had a knack for knowing what people wanted before they knew they wanted it. But it’s still not the issue. It boils down to “everything you can give them”. And that means before the debt is paid on GO.COM, the bills are due on idiotic cable channels, the ratings (and accrued debt) from ABC, and all those other boneheaded moves that our (anti)hero can be credited for.

How can you possibly “Give the people everything you can give them”, when the cash is demanded elsewhere?

Since the closing of stores has no bearing on me I could give a rat's @$$.But since the closing of stores may impact someone else, by all means, give them what they want no matter the reason? We should all be entitled to have it all - oh and by the way, did I forget to mention that our overhead has tripled due to insurance, litigation and benefits? So you won't mind paying three times as much for your vacation to help us maintain all services at your full satisfaction.

Afterall - a disney vacation IS a premium vacation and only the elite should be priviledged enough to patronize this fine organization given its' vast array of extravagant indulgences.I assume since we cleared up the misquoting that happened and can now appreciate the difference between the two statements, this passage now becomes irrelevant. Right?

But you did say something that struck a chord with me. You paragraph’s opening sentence. “Since the closing of stores has no bearing on me I could give a rat's @$$.”

It has bearing on us all, if we want to see Disney maintain the standards that set them apart from the rest. High standards indeed. But very, very necessary if they are to remain Disney and NOT sink to the levels of their competition. Surely you can see that! Can’t you?

Personally, I NEVER shop. I NEVER even go into those stores. My wife and three daughters more than make up for my share!!!! But I can take myself outside of my personal experience and try to grasp the ‘big picture’ (I really try to do this whenever I post). Like Walt did when he ordered that little stand opened in Adventureland. I think it’s safe to say he had no personal stake in it. I don't think he wanted to buy anything at that moment. Heck, he even stood to gain some income if it remained closed. But instead he saw the ‘big picture’ and instantly understood the value of leaving it opened even though it was losing money. He ‘Got It’. Current management does not. And judging by your statement you might not either.

But the recent decisions are favorable and will make quite a difference which is deserving of some consideration.Such as?

The reason for the question is that I don't see as many leaving based on these changes as you imply.How ridiculous!!! So we see how low we can go before they start jumping ship!?!?! Tell me where THAT fits into the Disney philosophy!!!

I think people are upset about the loss of amenities and are heavily voicing their complaints on a discussion forum but really have no intention of going elsewhere.Others may voice complaints about ‘amenities’. I do not. I voice complaints about lowered standards and eroded (if not completely ousted) philosophical ideals. The things that drew me to Disney in the first place. Again. Vastly different things.

Mr. King:
Fifty years ago at DL is a different situation then now at WDW.I asked bicker a couple years ago and he was hard pressed for an answer. I will ask you the same thing. What are these differences? Please be specific. Thanks.

[raidermatt]

They still have to cover the cost increases without charging the customer. This is a big problem and will take alot of talent to disguise behind the curtain. Of course it takes talent. In fact, I already said it takes talent. But it first takes a belief and a desire, which are not present in the upper echelons of Disney management.

So they instead have chosen the easy way out, which is to focus on budget items first and foremost, instead of the integrity of the product. Consequently, they have lowered costs, and are finding they now have to lower prices through discounting.

Again, saying something requires a lot of talent is no reason to excuse sub-standard performance.

This means everyone needs to be handed a refresher course on how to proceed with the new guests coming in to insure they retain this group for future bookings and send everyone home on a positive note. If they have shops empty that's another problem which will have to be incorporated as well. Why waste someone's time at an empty post if you can better utilize these hours by preparing them for what's about to happen. That's quite a theory. Problem is we haven't heard anything about CMs being "re-trained". Further, even if attendance is expected to rise dramatically, Sept/Oct is not going to be busier than June/July. It might be better than the same period last year, but June/July is the busiest extended period of the year, period.

Even further yet, part of any real change must include the realization that shuttered restaurants, shops, and/or attractions is BAD SHOW.

Nope, rest assured the main point in shuttering the shops is to save labor costs, not merely transfer them to the "training" column.

[KNWVIKING]

I know, viKing, I'm just not used to seeing KNWVIKING refered to as Mr. King. I don't care, it's just that when scanning thru threads my eyes don't pick it out. Anyhow....

"I asked bicker a couple years ago and he was hard pressed for an answer. I will ask you the same thing. What are these differences? Please be specific. Thanks."

What was Walts competition back then ? DL was extremely unique. Today there are parks for every budget and thrill level. Busch Gardens,Universal,Seaworld,Cedar Point and I'm sure others offer a great product compared to what Walt did. It's not as easy to "WOW "us today with IASM.

Do you think Walt could possibly put together a 47 sq mile land deal at the dirt cheap price he got WDW for ? It wouldn't fly under the radar today.Maybe instead of 47 he gets 4.7.

Assume he still comes up with the land. Do you think any state would give him the authority to be his own little country the way Florida did back in the '60s ? WDW gets to play by rules that IOA/US would kill for.

From what I've read,opening day at DL was a nitemare. Would a park survive a similar opening today ? Forget the snail slow newspapers, boards like this would shread it moments after the gates opened. The fact that DL was so different then helped it survive the opening. Today the gap between DL/WDW and US/IOA is a lot closer the DL and carnivals.

Speaking of boards like these:Walt did a lot of great things, but he also had his share of clunkers, he wasn't perfect. But mostly those mistakes were only known by the people who experienced them- guests that actually rode the ride,saw the show or ate the meal. Mistakes could be corrected before it was plastered all over the internet. Everything he'd do today would be scrutinized to the 'nth degree.

Then there is the legal world. 50 yrs ago if you spilled hot coffee on your crotch did your name suddenly appear on the Forbes list of richest American's ? Slip,fall,bump,trip = cha ching,cha ching,cha ching. Before my boss passed away several years ago he commented to me that it just wasn't fun anymore to own a business. The government and lawyers had managed to turn him into a miserable paper pushing administrator rather then and back slappin' handshaken truck salesman. Would Walt even get to enjoy the park he built.

Then there is the audience for Walts great show. I don't know what the CM's get paid to keep smiling when some idiot is demanding PAP's for the entire family because his Coke had too much ice in it, but it ain't enough. I'll stop there because I think you know what I'm talking about.

Lastly, the stock market. I know very little about the world of mega money but with the internet making it very easy to track my retirement accounts I'm learning a few things and noticing trends. In my simple minded understanding, Disney's value or worth is the sum of stock price times number of shares, or 10 gazillion. Now watching the market over the last few days, Dis dropped about 10%, or 1 gazillion. Why ? Nemo is doing great. Movie totals for the year are generally good. Parks aren't doing terrible,costs have been cut. Nothing unusual really happening at all, yet Dis is worth a gazillion less.And those million stock holders want it back.NOW. Everything in the business world is dependant on the markets, yet the Enron's and Worldcom's have ruined the trust it once held. Would Walt even be able to get the financing he'd need to put 24 carat gold plating on castle spires or crystal chandeliers in restaurants ? Or would stock holders and bean counters demand yellow paint and glass ?

Probably not as specific as you'd like LB, but my opinion is that Walt would hate todays world of business and even more of his great ideas would have died with him.

[Another Voice]

Well let’s see…

"What was Walt's competition back then ?"

Hmm…Knott's Berry Farm, just up the road from Anaheim, had already been running as an amusement park for several decades before Walt bought his first orange grove. There was the Fun Zone on Balboa, the Pike in Long Beach and Pacific Ocean Park in Santa Monica, and another amusement park in the (back then) undeveloped west side of L.A. Universal had been offering it's studio tour and shows since before pictures had sound. For the tourist crowd there was all kinds of special Southern California attractions like Hollywood Blvd (in the days you could walk it), Farmer's Market, Wilshire, the San Diego Zoo, the beaches – heck, southern California was already pretty big tourist destination before Walt built his castle (even Lucy and Ricky came out here).

It wasn't that Walt lacked competition – he simply made a better place and beat them at their own business.


"It's not as easy to "WOW "us today with IASM."

Actually I've heard that when you account for inflation and such, the development of 'Pirates of the Caribbean' cost over nine times what it cost to develop 'Mission: Space'. It wasn't cheaper or easier to "WOW" people back then – it was just different.


"Do you think Walt could possibly put together a 47 sq mile land deal at the dirt cheap price he got WDW for ?"

I actually know an individual that owns a chunk of land bigger than that (Hollywood connections you know) and it's real under the radar. Besides, didn't Disney buy an entire island recently for their cruise ship? And given the weekly posting of "Disney's building in Texas/Nebraska/Your State Here" rumors on this very board there's no reason to think they couldn't easily find a similar plot of land today. Yea the country club set of Virginia might not wanted Disney, but I'm sure the Chamber of Commerce in Deer Tick, New Jersey would be more than willing to help with the purchase (and Orlando was less than swampland when Walt bought in – he had confidence people would come to his place; Eisner needed to highjack them from an existing tourist center).


" Do you think any state would give him the authority to be his own little country the way Florida did back in the '60s ?"

Perhaps because people trusted Walt Disney. All they see from Michael Eisner is that's he's trying to cheat a widow out of royalties from a cartoon bear, that he siphons hundreds of millions of dollars into his vast personal fortune (Hey, he got five million the same year they laid of thousands of employees to save costs), and keeps being voted as one of the worst CEO and one of the worst boards in the country. Walt was an entertainer who created magic; Eisner is a business out to take your money. It's not surprising people treat them differently.


" From what I've read, opening day at DL was a nightmare. Would a park survive a similar opening today ?"

Actually the opening day was broadcast on live television to the entire country (two full hours). All the problems (and there were plenty) flooded into living rooms across the country. And the newspapers in town breathless reported every problem of that day. Then again, Walt didn't have his own broadcast network, news organization, magazines, cable channels, radio network and pixie fans flooding the Internet with breathless accounts of how "magical" everything was. Disneyland survived not only because it was different, but because it was good.

Yet all the controlled media and all the orchestrated press and all the internet cheerleading and all the synergy couldn't get anyone to go to California Adventure despite its flawless opening. Again – it's quality that makes the difference, not the circumstances.


" Mistakes could be corrected before it was plastered all over the internet. Everything he'd do today would be scrutinized to the 'nth degree."

Funny, I can't recall them building a bad 'Haunted Mansion', opening it to a poor reception and then secretly closing it before anyone found out about it. Nor do I remember then putting out a movie and then quickly pulling if back from theaters to fix it before anyone noticed. You see, that's the funny thing about entertainment – there aren't a lot of second chances to make the first impression. All the internet has done is speed the buzz that already existed. The secret is not the make mistakes in the first place (say, the 'Imagination' redo).


" Before my boss passed away several years ago he commented to me that it just wasn't fun anymore to own a business."

Well Walt dealt with the guilds in Hollywood, the censors from Washington and each and every special interest group you can possibility think of (there was a religious group in the 1940's that tried to get Donald Duck banned as immoral; he didn't wear pants – we won't even get into Song of the South). You think the government is intrusive – wait till you have to slip some extra dough under the table to both the unions and the pressure groups. Business was no easier then than it was today.

Besides, Walt never had the money to pour into campaign funds like Eisner has flooded Washington with (what – you don't think Congress changed the public domain laws just because they thought it was a good idea did you?). Nor did Walt get tax kick back from the states (did you know that the sales tax you pay in WDW doesn't all go to Tallahassee?), the ability to issue tax free bonds (the good citizens of the state of Florida paid for your ability to flush a toilet in WDW), nor did Walt have the city of Anaheim pay for the infrastructure at Disneyland (but all the roads and parking for DCA comes out of my taxes now).

And far from being the victim of government, Eisner doesn't seem dissuaded from using it on behalf of himself. From is early attempt to make VCRs illegal (the Supreme Court told him no) to his current battle to regulate the Internet, tax blank CDs & DVD, and place government monitoring software on the your very own personal computer (the one you're staring at right now) – Eisner doesn't seem much concerned about rules and regulations making things "just not fun anymore" when he thinks it will give him a few more coins.


" I don't know what the CM's get paid to keep smiling when some idiot is demanding PAP's for the entire family because his Coke had too much ice in it, but it ain't enough."

Before Eisner showed up I had a guy try to land a right hook on me when I caught him wandering around one of the rides (out of his vehicle). Talk to any cast member from any time period, you'll hear the same stories – none of the circumstances have changed.


" Would Walt even be able to get the financing he'd need to put 24 carat gold plating on castle spires or crystal chandeliers in restaurants"

It was always a massive struggle and led to so much conflict between the Disney brothers they could for months not speaking to each other. Walt didn't have to deal with Wall Street, he had Bank of America to deal with. He didn't have the easy junk bonds, the ability to bribe stock analysts to giving good rating (how many free rooms at the Grand Floridian did Merril Lynch get?) or the ability to show up on a 24 hour business news channel to paint bright and cherry pictures about how wonderful the future looked. He had to prove to a roomful of bankers that his crazy idea was going to make profit. Eisner gets to sit on television and tell the world he has no idea what makes a hit movie and no one notices (gee…maybe people finally are catching on about the dip).

Walt certainly didn't have the ability to borrow the $15 billion that Eisner has on the books today. And what has Eisner got with all that cash…Go.com, Fox Family and Tiger Woods? Nor did Walt have the luxury of losing several hundred million dollars on lease for jetliners. Makes you wonder who had an easier time rasing money - they guy who sold his life insurance policy to build the the Mark Twain riverboat or the guy with a corporate jet waiting at Van Nuys airport just in case he wants to jet to New York for dinner.


So there you go – probably more specific than you wanted but it's all to prove one point:

IT'S HOW YOU RUN THE BUSINESS, NOT WHEN YOU RUN IT, THAT MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE

[DVC-Landbaron]

Thank you AV!!

DITTO

You saved me a heck of a lot of typing!!

[SnackyStacky]

It takes one helluva debate these days to pull the Baron out of hibernation! :)

I have but one thing to add. I don't remember where it was said, or who said it, but someone said something about this decision not affecting them, so they didn't give a rat's @$$? I hope I got that right.

And then didn't that same person also make some argument about how we're an entitlist society?

If you want a spin on how this WILL affect you, whether you buy the plush or not:

As people have attested to, not everybody likes the rides! Many people get a lot of satisfaction out of simply browsing in the shops. If the stores close early, (and/or open late), do you know WHERE all those people will go? That's right. Out onto the pathways.

Not to mention, I'm sure that when the sun is still blazing a dreadful 90+ degrees, and you step into an eatery or shop to take a break from that lovely sun (which in peak summer hours does NOT set until well after 8), YOU won't be able to. And the stores that are open will be even more crowded.

When and/or if I buy anything at Disney World, it's on the last day at the World of Disney. With the exception of merchandise for specific attractions, there's nothing you can't get at World of Disney. So, it doesn't affect me directly, but it will indirectly.

Anyway, I don't really have anything to add, but I hate being left out of the conversation! :)

[KNWVIKING]

*** "What was Walt's competition back then ?" ***

I know there were amusement parks back then. Aren't they where Walt learned what NOT to put in his ? My point was that on a scale of 1-10, if DL was a 10, then the next best was a 4. Today Busch,US and others offer a much better product, maybe an 8. The competion gap is much closer. I don't believe Walt or anyone can build a park that could be so much better then the current competitors the way Walt could back in the '50s.

*** "It's not as easy to "WOW "us today with IASM." ***

I'm not talking about the money involved. I'm talking about the shear mechanics of ride creation. When are "extreme" rides going to excede what our bodies can take. If Walt never existed,no Mickey,Donald,Goofy or Snow White, and someone were to build the original DL today -let's call it Vikingland- would it be successful compared to IOA/US ? I don't think so. It won't survive just because of its wonderful name. Walt's best rides in DL were heads-n-tails better then the competitors best rides. Can a ride be built today that can be that much better then say Spiderman ? Kids today are more sophisticate,informed,however you want to phrase it, then they were 50 years ago. My boys would be bored to tears with Walts DL.

*** "Do you think Walt could possibly put together a 47 sq mile land deal at the dirt cheap price he got WDW for ?" ***

The story CM's on the Keys to the Kingdom tell is that Walts shell companies started buying up land at dirt cheap prices. Soon as word got out Walt was the buyer the price skyrocketed. What would have happened if word got out that Fred the Orange Farmer was doing the buying ? Not much. Obviousely I don't know your friend with the land, but would his name or notority compare with Walt or Fred ? How much did it cost US to buy the land required to do it's expansion ? Nobody is going to get the land bargain today that Walt got then.

***" Do you think any state would give him the authority to be his own little country the way Florida did back in the '60s ?" ***

Simply comparing ME's business practice to those of Walts doesn't change the fact that no state is going to allow Walt to build a nuke plant on his land if he so choses. Do you honestly believe there will ever be a deal made today that could compare to what Walt got.

***" Before my boss passed away several years ago he commented to me that it just wasn't fun anymore to own a business."***

My bosses comments are something I hear all the time from my customers, most of which are small business owners, (nothing on the scale of Disney), who started out or took over a family business in the '60s & '70s. Something has definitely happened to discourage and dishearten these people. Maybe there is no difference what Walt went thru then and what he would deal with today, but one of my favorite pictures is one I've seen is a candid one of Walt with a hardhat on out in the construction site at the beginning of project X. He looks like a kid in a candy store. I think he would have to pose for a shot like that today.

***" I don't know what the CM's get paid to keep smiling when some idiot is demanding PAP's for the entire family because his Coke had too much ice in it, but it ain't enough." ***

The world has always had idiots, we just have more of them now. DW and I overheard a comment that basically sums up how we feel about todays society. A man a little older then us commented that in the past, people would comment about how rude or misbehaved a child was because he was the exception. Today when people comment that little Jonnie is such a polite,well mannered chid,its because he's the exception. In the past,no one even took notice of little Jonnie, he was the expected rule. In just the 15 years I've been a manager at my dealership,I've seen an incredible difference in the customer base. I don't look forward to the future.



You've focused a lot of your counter on the performance of ME, or rather the lack there of. ME plays no part in my opinion of Walt dealing with todays world. Well, actually,I take that back. The ME's of the world support my argument of why Walt would be hard pressed to duplicate today what he did in the past.

AV and/or Baron, I'll give you's the last word as I'm done debating my opinion.

[Another Voice]

The opinion that so many people express is that we must accept low standards and low quality today because it's so much tougher, so much harder, so much more difficult today than it was in the past.

That's a lie. It was no easier then than it is today.

Success comes from a combination of talent and hard effort. Those demanding that we accept less are doing so because they do not want to do the hard work that those before them did – not because the laws of nature or human behavior suddenly switched after 1964.

Some seem willing to accept those that slacken, those that think they can easily take my money with minimal effort, those that cry "all the good ideas have already been done" so I should pay for their derivative knock-offs, and those that beg me to pity them for the difficult circumstances they have toiled under (and then hand over our money).

I will not lower my standards to meet their incompetence.

Mr. Viking you wrote about the picture of Walt standing on the construction site and how that "kid in the candy store" attitude is lost. Come with me on any given day and I will show you a young director, writer, producer or actor stepping onto a set with that same "I can make something wonderful" expression. The sprit expressed in that photograph exits in many, many people today if you but care to look.

But it does not exist in Michael Eisner and that is the true difference.

[crusader]

WHOA!!!

Mr. Viking and Mr. Voice, let me take this opportunity to applaud your remarks! Excellent!!!!!!!

Mr. Baron,

You asked me where I got that statement? You were correct in assuming I paraphrased (and cleverly reworked) your philosophical signatory refrain.

I did so to emphasize the fundamental difference between what a founder intends their mission statement to be and what the general public interprets that to mean.

My comments which followed were in response to that very public who don't want to hear that you will only give them "everything you can". All they care about is getting exactly what they want - when they want - and how they want it. Unfortunately in our society we have degraded ourselves culturally to expect things rather than appreciate them. We have become intolerant.

Walt lived in a different world and I'm sure he would have an extremely difficult time appeasing the objectionable demands prevalent in this business today.

Now to address a few specifics:

I will grant you that Walt had a knack for knowing what people wanted before they knew they wanted it. But it’s still not the issue. It boils down to “everything you can give them”. And that means before the debt is paid on GO.COM, the bills are due on idiotic cable channels, the ratings (and accrued debt) from ABC, and all those other boneheaded moves that our (anti)hero can be credited for.

This particularly struck me. By "people" I am assuming you mean potential customers. This sounds great but will do absolutely nothing in today's market. Walt's priority is to the shareholders, which directly involves the investment banking community. Like it or not, this is first and foremost who he must give everything he can. And as Mr. Viking so eloqently put it - the regulatory enviromnent of today takes all the "fun out of owning a business".

You may want to believe Walt wouldn't have made some major mistakes in trying to gain market share and increase margins and profitability in response to the demands of the omnipresent WallStreet but we'll never really know for sure. That's one of the great things about being a legend!

re: that comment about a rat's posterior -
It has bearing on us all, if we want to see Disney maintain the standards that set them apart from the rest. High standards indeed. But very, very necessary if they are to remain Disney and NOT sink to the levels of their competition. Surely you can see that! Can’t you?
Let's be honest - the standards have as much to do with the service as they do the ambience. "SHOW" as you like to toss around includes everything. So the question is can you change something without affecting the show? Can you add a thrill ride? Can you take a parade away? Can you reduce the portions of food? Can you add more plush? and still put on a fantastic show?

Well - from what I've been hearing around here lately the magic lives bigtime!!!!!!!! Disney is succeeding in maintaining tradition despite its' woes. That my friend means more than you can put a pricetag on. That spurns longetivity and this company knows it. The name Disney is synonomous with magic which continues to perplex me but is sustaining generations. How is this happening?

[crusader]

But it does not exist in Michael Eisner and that is the true difference.

Michael Eisner's been around the block AV and you and I both know what that party looks like.

I've seen those same aspiring dreamers myself and often wonder how they would handle success. Ask any of them if they want to be a millionaire. When you have nothing to start with its' easy to invest everything into your project. Once you get a taste of the other side, its unbelievably difficult to walk away from the money. It takes guts and a strong set of values to say NO to the perks and expend all efforts preserving the liquidity of your company. The veterans of the WWII era had that work ethic. The CEO of today lost it somewhere in the haze which clouds WallStreet and Hollywood.

[SnackyStacky]

NOW I've got something to say!!!


You asked me where I got that statement? You were correct in assuming I paraphrased (and cleverly reworked) your philosophical signatory refrain.

I did so to emphasize the fundamental difference between what a founder intends their mission statement to be and what the general public interprets that to mean.

My comments which followed were in response to that very public who don't want to hear that you will only give them "everything you can". All they care about is getting exactly what they want - when they want - and how they want it. Unfortunately in our society we have degraded ourselves culturally to expect things rather than appreciate them. We have become intolerant.

HUH?! I completely agree with you in that we are very much a society that expects rather than appreciates, but Walt set out to give the people everything he could. I think that's pretty simple. He did it. But then, Eisner came in, and cocked it up! People only want what was given to them in the first place, taken away, and then charged MORE for! So yeah, people expect more, but it's only because of the history and precedent that Walt set up. That's like saying it's okay to give a kid one cookie and when you take it away, expect him to never want it back again!

Walt lived in a different world and I'm sure he would have an extremely difficult time appeasing the objectionable demands prevalent in this business today.

I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about the history of the parks or the man himself, but I think I just read in a post in THIS thread that Walt frequently got into fights with the business side of his company. He was the dreamer, his brother the businessman. And they frequently didn't speak because Walt's brother said no to something. But who won out in the end? Walt did. And what happened as a result of Walt having it his way? The successful, one-of-a-kind place that the Disney parks once were.

This particularly struck me. By "people" I am assuming you mean potential customers. This sounds great but will do absolutely nothing in today's market. Walt's priority is to the shareholders, which directly involves the investment banking community. Like it or not, this is first and foremost who he must give everything he can. And as Mr. Viking so eloqently put it - the regulatory enviromnent of today takes all the "fun out of owning a business".

Car 1 and 2ers will repeat this argument ad nauseum but it simply doesn't fly. When you put out QUALITY, yes, the bottom line takes a temporary hit, but your long-term outcome is astonishing. You build customer loyalty, and BRAND loyalty. BUT, if you mess with the quality, the exact opposite happens. The temporary bottom line increases, but you erode the loyalty, and your long term profits suffer.

You may want to believe Walt wouldn't have made some major mistakes in trying to gain market share and increase margins and profitability in response to the demands of the omnipresent WallStreet but we'll never really know for sure. That's one of the great things about being a legend!

He didn't care about that! While it wasn't Wall Street, he had his brother in his face about that stuff. That's what his brother was for.

re: that comment about a rat's posterior -

Let's be honest - the standards have as much to do with the service as they do the ambience. "SHOW" as you like to toss around includes everything. So the question is can you change something without affecting the show? Can you add a thrill ride? Can you take a parade away? Can you reduce the portions of food? Can you add more plush? and still put on a fantastic show?

Well - from what I've been hearing around here lately the magic lives bigtime!!!!!!!! Disney is succeeding in maintaining tradition despite its' woes. That my friend means more than you can put a pricetag on. That spurns longetivity and this company knows it. The name Disney is synonomous with magic which continues to perplex me but is sustaining generations. How is this happening?

Who denies that there's magic at Disney parks? WHO denies that? Anyone? Anyone?

Yeah, that's what I thought. NOBODY!

The problem is just what you mention. The longevity. How much longer can Disney continue to make cuts and still succeed? How many more cuts do they have to make before people begin to see the magic go away? How many "straw-that-broke-the-camel's-bacl" stories are needed before Disney is sold off piece by piece?

[crusader]

People only want what was given to them in the first place, taken away, and then charged MORE for! So yeah, people expect more, but it's only because of the history and precedent that Walt set up.

They want what they had but they don't want to pay more. They're spoiled. They're self indulgent. They really don't care much beyond that. What was once considered a luxury has become a necessity.

But who won out in the end? Walt did. And what happened as a result of Walt having it his way? The successful, one-of-a-kind place that the Disney parks once were.

Walt did have more control if I'm not mistaken which we have truly benefitted from. But you are looking at someone who lived in a different era and ran a company in its' developmental years and hoping to find him today to run a corporate giant. It's not going to happen within one person. It will take a dynamic team to carry on Walt's legacy.When you put out QUALITY, yes, the bottom line takes a temporary hit, but your long-term outcome is astonishing. You build customer loyalty, and BRAND loyalty. This sounds wonderful in theory but its' not what's being sold to me or you anymore. Every brand has been diluted and retooled with less expensive component parts. Disney couldn't avoid dealing with its' suppliers peddling cheap merchandise unless they were willing to charge all of us far more than we could afford for a vacation. Where I see people here drawing the line is twenty-five years ago - completely intolerant of change.

[SnackyStacky]

They want what they had but they don't want to pay more. They're spoiled. They're self indulgent. They really don't care much beyond that. What was once considered a luxury has become a necessity.

I think you missed the high point of what I said earlier......Disney guests are being charged MORE for less. Instead of keeping prices the same while all these cuts are made, they've been raised! Spoiled? You better believe it! That tends to happen when you've been given the best! Self-indulgent? Hell no!

Walt did have more control if I'm not mistaken which we have truly benefitted from. But you are looking at someone who lived in a different era and ran a company in its' developmental years and hoping to find him today to run a corporate giant. It's not going to happen within one person. It will take a dynamic team to carry on Walt's legacy.

You're right. And the micromanagement that goes on is a dynamic team? The fact that they've completely abandoned the philosophy is going to carry on the legacy? How?

This sounds wonderful in theory but its' not what's being sold to me or you anymore. Every brand has been diluted and retooled with less expensive component parts. Disney couldn't avoid dealing with its' suppliers peddling cheap merchandise unless they were willing to charge all of us far more than we could afford for a vacation.

Wow. I think that speaks volumes. It was about quality. And there still are business that run with the philosophy that quality breeds loyalty. Don't think so? Check out JetBlue sometime. A service-based company that puts forth top notch service, for fair prices. I'm certainly glad that you're not a business owner with whom I'm doing business.

Where I see people here drawing the line is twenty-five years ago - completely intolerant of change.

There's nothing wrong with change. UNLESS that change is in the philosophy....the very HEART of the company.

[KNWVIKING]

***"I think you missed the high point of what I said earlier......Disney guests are being charged MORE for less. Instead of keeping prices the same while all these cuts are made, they've been raised!" ***

Whenever I read things like this, I try to apply it to me. And I'm sitting here trying to think of where this is happening.When I think of MORE for LESS, things like 1 lb cans of coffee that are now 13.5 oz selling for more. Or 12 oz soda cans that are now 11oz. Or those big air filled bags of potatoe chips. Then I think of what I'm paying MORE for the SAME. Gallon of gas,gallon of milk,car rentals,heating oil,electricity,taxes. Now it gets real tough, SAME for SAME and LESS for SAME...drawing a blank.Lastly, LESS for MORE. That's easy,computors. Now what catagory do I place Disney.

Well, how about staying on property. Rooms are pretty much all discounted. I would say thats a pay LESS for MORE or SAME, maybe I add a nite and still save a few bucks. AK has/had meal Certs, a great value, so thats LESS for SAME. There's a current rumor that MK will also try this. How about the FTP, pretty unbelievable deal. Ah, the chicken fingers. If in fact the chicken portion is smaller, your still not paying MORE for LESS because the price didn't go up. Its a SAME for LESS. Not exactly what I'd like to see, but at least they didn't raise the price. The one day park admission did just recently go up $2.00, which basically matches US/IOA and SW, but that is more an inflationary increase- CM's do get pay raises- no different then me raising my shop rate every year. So what am I getting less of now that I'm actually paying more for and how is it negatively affecting my vacations ? There are less parades and fantasy fireworks, but I do get to see them, I just have to actually read the schedule of events now so I know when to be there.Even if they had a parade every day I still wouldn't see them all.Can that be interpreted as paying for something I don't even want?Bottom line,I don't feel cheated. Less park hours: This is tough for me to put a value on because summer time hours till midnight have never been an experience for me. Closest I come is MVMCP. When we were there in May it was incredibly hot, first time we've actually experienced summer type heat, and I commented about understanding why people that come in the summer are upset by the reduced hours because it would be great to spend all afternoon at a pool and still have till midnight to play in the parks. Ill give you that lower hours in the summer heat stinks but as for MORE for LESS, yes it applies but the actual $$ expense is minimal.

For me, I don't feel I'm being charged more for less. I still believe I get great value and a value that is holding it's own against the other things I pay for in the real world.

[hopemax]

I like exploring DL's History, and so I have a bunch of park maps floating around. A friend just gave me one from her May trip to DL.

I decided to add up the attractions and entertainment as listed on the map:

53 attractions, Fantasmic!, day parade, fireworks show. Now, I didn't count the DL railroad 4 times, even though it's listed that way. But I did count TSI as one attraction and the rafts as one because that's how they are listed on the current map. So 56 things.

2001 - 55 attractions + Fantasmic!, parade, fireworks for 58. However, on this map the rafts to TSI and the island were considered as ONE attraction (and earlier years), so if I'm going to compare to 2003, I feel like I have to subtract one from the 2003 total.

So

2003 - 55
2001 - 58
1998 - 56 + 3 = 59
1994 - 58 + 4 (Fantasmic!, day parade, NIGHT parade, fireworks) = 62

Between 1994 and 2003 DL suffered a net loss of 7 attractions or major entertainment.

Those 7 things may not be a big deal to you individually, but can you understand why the loss of those 7 things may translate to "paying more for less" for someone else?

[KNWVIKING]

Like I said,I try and apply what I read here to how it affects me. I don't keep score with the plus and minus counts -not that I don't appriciate your DL research- to determine if I'm getting more for less at WDW. I use my experience during and after the fact. So far, despite all I have ever read on these boards, I have a great time at WDW and feel I'm getting more then my monies worth. I've never gotten home, added up the expense and said "&#@*, that was a waste".

[KNWVIKING]

.... It seems even more bizzare after reading this"

***Some dining news for a change, Disney will be increasing the days of operations for some of its more popular counter service restaurants. The ABC Commissary is going back to being open 7 days a week as of June 8th. The Backlot Express is going back to being open 7 days a week on June 15th. Both had been operating on a limited schedule.***

[Pinnie]

Does anyone wonder yet if this has to do with getting staff hired, trained and up to speed??

pin

[blackshirt]

Quote "Whenever I read things like this, I try to apply it to me. And I'm sitting here trying to think of where this is happening."

Yes, I agree, you have absolutely no conception of why OTHER people go to the parks. To have such a self centered attitude, is well, indicative of of a disfunctional worldview. ME, ME, ME , It does't affect ME so screw it.
Perhaps, you may someday realize that the absence of "common people" from WDW might have an effect on YOU(ME in your post)

[ThAnswr]

>>>>(the good citizens of the state of Florida paid for your ability to flush a toilet in WDW),<<<<

I knew my tax dollars were going down the crapper.

Btw, I just got back Wednesday from a 6 day stay at WDW.

If the truth be told, all I can say is something was different and I have yet to sort out how.

[crusader]

Blackshirt you can turn that right around and apply it the other way. All those who keep saying ME, ME, ME. Give it to ME, ME, ME no matter what it takes because I'm so self centered I could care less.

[KNWVIKING]

***Yes, I agree, you have absolutely no conception of why OTHER people go to the parks. To have such a self centered attitude, is well, indicative of of a disfunctional worldview. ME, ME, ME , It does't affect ME so screw it.
Perhaps, you may someday realize that the absence of "common people" from WDW might have an effect on YOU(ME in your post) Maybe not. BTW, when disasters occur, do you thank God it was "THEM and not me". I think I already know the answer. What a twisted way of going through life.***

First,and most importantly, I absolutely thank God when disaster doesn't directly hurt me. I also pray for those it did.

Now to the trivial stuff. "common people" ??? Sometimes I think I'm the only common person on this board because I have no pretense of knowing how to run a mega billion dollar company. I fix trucks for a living.

I also question things I read and apply them to my life-nothing selfish about that. So when I read More for Less, I wonder if thats true. To me it is not.

And where do I not consider how others vacation or question the validity of how they do. After experiencing high temps in May, I conceded a point about summertime hours being more important then I had originally thought. Airlarry gave a real life experience on why the early store closing affect his vacation, a point I gladly conceded,not discount.

Give me real facts and reason why something is wrong or bad and I will accept your position and opinion. Don't tell it's wrong just because it was never that way before or that Walt never would have done it.

And don't ever assume you know me or how I am !

[hopemax]

Yes, I used DL as an example, but the same thing could be done at the Magic Kingdom, it's just those park maps weren't sitting next to my computer. You may not keep score that way, but others might. Others may look at the quality of the replacement attractions, others the quality of the merchandise, the quality of food, others the park hours. And other's like ThAnswr may leave with just a feeling that something isn't right.

I'm not asking you to change your mind and agree that yes "guests are paying more for less." I'm asking if it's possible for a guest to reach the conclusion that they are paying more for less WITHOUT being considered a spoiled brat?

Is it possible, that they just went through the same process that you did, but because of their personal likes, dislikes they simply reached a different conclusion?

[KNWVIKING]

Absolutely.

[hopemax]

That's great to read, because sometimes, that's not the impression that I get (other posters, not you, but it's nice to see someone say it).

[blackshirt]

Originally posted by crusader
Blackshirt you can turn that right around and apply it the other way. All those who keep saying ME, ME, ME. Give it to ME, ME, ME no matter what it takes because I'm so self centered I could care less.
Crusader, I disagree, the relationship that exists between my family and WDW is not based on a contract(in most cases, AP's not included) As a company, Disney has a self interest obligation to try and win my affection. Where do I have any obligation to Disney to support them forever? When they fail, and they HAVE been failing in the last few years, is it any wonder that I go looking elsewhere for entertainment??? In answer to the quote, if Disney can no longer make a handsome profit off their theme park operations( Huge profits, every year) perhaps it would be better if they sold them to someone who could( Variation of the theme "if you don't like , don't go" or "if you don't like DVC, sell")

[crusader]

As a company, Disney has a self interest obligation to try and win my affection. Where do I have any obligation to Disney to support them forever? When they fail, and they HAVE been failing in the last few years, is it any wonder that I go looking elsewhere for entertainment???

Absolutely. (I was hoping to circumvent a downward spiral) As I've said on this thread, they need to re-establish credibility to win back customers. Despite Disney's recent efforts, I doubt things will ever be restored 100% and wonder when it will be considered enough.


And Hope, please try to understand that I never added the word "brat" to my statement regarding most American's being spoiled. This behavior is seen everywhere and does not just apply to Disney.

[SnackyStacky]

Well, how about staying on property. Rooms are pretty much all discounted. I would say thats a pay LESS for MORE or SAME, maybe I add a nite and still save a few bucks.

How ABOUT staying on property. What you're saying is that it's okay for Disney to charge more, as long as they offer you a discount?! HUH?!?

Disney built up their hotel properties at such an astonishing rate, that they've only now come to realize that it was too fast with the ridiculously delayed Pop Century. Because of ALL that expansion, you're paying....ta da!! MORE FOR LESS!

Now, I won't even get myself started on how I can get a deluxe size room with deluxe amenities for Disney's "value resort" pricing off-property, because I know I'll hear about the "magic" that's available at the Disney resorts. But look amongst the resorts themselves.

For one night, peak season, rack rate, standard view at the Caribbean Beach, including taxes, total would be $160.56. The rooms at the Caribbean Beach are 340 square feet. (Which, by the way is the same size as a standard room at the Wilderness Lodge...and one night, peak season, rack rate, standard view at the Wilderness Lodge goes for $221.89). For one night, peak season, rack rate, standard view at Coronado Springs, including taxes, total would be $160.56. The rooms at Coronado Springs are 314 square feet. Seems like you're paying same for less, right?

Break down by square footage. Per square foot of room space:

Caribbean Beach: $.47
Coronado Springs: $.51

SO, for two hotels, both supposedly offering the same, or at the very least similar amenities, you're getting LESS space FOR MORE money at Coronado Springs. Less for more. See?

AK has/had meal Certs, a great value, so thats LESS for SAME.

I'm unfamiliar with said certs. I'm assuming you mean some sort of discount or free meal certificate? So once again I say....it's okay to jack up the rates as long as a certain few have a discount to get it for a better rate?

How about the FTP, pretty unbelievable deal.

Sure is an unbelieveable deal. It's amazing how it's the first discount that Disney has advertised on such a huge scale. Have you ever seen ads for discount codes before the fairy tale package? I hadn't. Me thinks something stinks in the land of Disney.

Ah, the chicken fingers. If in fact the chicken portion is smaller, your still not paying MORE for LESS because the price didn't go up. Its a SAME for LESS.

Once again, that's the surface. Break it down. I've never bought chicken fingers, so I don't know prices, nor do I know how many they gave you. But suppose it was 5 fingers for $5.00. Now it's 4 fingers for $5.00. Originally, they were $1 per finger. Now, they're $1.25 per finger. LESS for MORE.

Not exactly what I'd like to see, but at least they didn't raise the price.

See the above math. They did raise the price. It just doesn't look like it on the surface.

The one day park admission did just recently go up $2.00, which basically matches US/IOA and SW, but that is more an inflationary increase- CM's do get pay raises- no different then me raising my shop rate every year.

I see.....you're back into that mode of "it doesn't affect me, so it doesn't matter". Does it matter that that $2 increase went into effect for the off season too? When there's one parade an evening, maybe ONE Spectromagic a week, MAYBE 1 Fantasy in the Sky display per week, closed Carousel of Progress, and drastically reduced hours? So that's the less for same? Nope, less for more. Break it down by park hour, by attraction....break it down however you want, but it still works out to LESS for MORE!

So what am I getting less of now that I'm actually paying more for and how is it negatively affecting my vacations ? There are less parades and fantasy fireworks, but I do get to see them, I just have to actually read the schedule of events now so I know when to be there.

Do you work for Eisner? That sounds like his rationale. :crazy:

Even if they had a parade every day I still wouldn't see them all.Can that be interpreted as paying for something I don't even want?

You can interpret it however you want to, but when Joe Blow takes a trip in January and doesn't get to see Fantasy in the Sky because there was only one weekend showing, and he left on Saturday morning, yup! He's getting less!

Bottom line,I don't feel cheated.

Mention of the bottom line, AND self-reference! You DO work for Eisner!!!! :jester:

Less park hours: This is tough for me to put a value on because summer time hours till midnight have never been an experience for me. Closest I come is MVMCP. When we were there in May it was incredibly hot, first time we've actually experienced summer type heat, and I commented about understanding why people that come in the summer are upset by the reduced hours because it would be great to spend all afternoon at a pool and still have till midnight to play in the parks. Ill give you that lower hours in the summer heat stinks but as for MORE for LESS, yes it applies but the actual $$ expense is minimal.

Here, you ADMIT to less for more (at least I think you meant to....you got it backwards), but then justify! So it's okay for them to do it because the expense to the consumer is minimal?!?!?!?!!? There shouldn't be ANY expense to the consumer! If you're gonna give them less, CHARGE THEM LESS!

For me, I don't feel I'm being charged more for less. I still believe I get great value and a value that is holding it's own against the other things I pay for in the real world.

Good for you. Now about the other tens of millions of visitors who go to Disney World, or rather, by attendance figures, I should say: "about the other millions of visitors who AREN'T going to Disney World anymore".....

[Another Voice]

"Like I said, I try and apply what I read here to how it affects me."

A perfectly attitude to take as long as your only concerned about yourvacation.

But some of us our worried about our children's.

The very, very, very simple fact of the matter is that millions of people no longer consider "Disney" a place that provides them with a pleasant experience for the money. The downturn in attendance at WDW has been much steeper and much longer than any drop in Florida attendance ever (and they've been through crises far worse than 9/11 – and why has everyone else recovered and not WDW). In Anaheim Disney has been unable to convince its most loyal fans to drive twenty minutes even when the give the park away for free.

Yes, I know you have a spiffy magical&reg; time – but unless you're willing to fork over $16 billion a year for your ticket ya' better start worrying about what those spoiled, ungratelful, self indulgent "common" folk want.

[crusader]

unless you're willing to fork over $16 billion a year for your ticket ya' better start worrying about what those spoiled, ungratelful, self indulgent "common" folk want.

Bummer!!:teeth:

[Another Voice]

By the way –

"Michael Eisner's been around the block AV and you and I both know what that party looks like…Once you get a taste of the other side, its unbelievably difficult to walk away from the money.'

So now that he's siphoned a billion dollars from the company he's supposed to be excused somehow to make The Hot Chick and the 'Orange Spinner'? Worse, we're supposed to just shut-up and accept that "that's how everyone else does it? What an amazing view of success – it lets you do even less.

I am truely amazed at the number of people who scream that Disney is the biggest, the best and the brightest - yet never hold to a standard higher than "everyone else does the same thing".

Enjoy your sitckers.

[KNWVIKING]

When I say "how does it affect me" I'm not implying that if doesn't affect me its not big deal. I'm trying to put myself in the situation that the poster is talking about to try and understand what they mean. Just because someone threws out a catchy phrase like "more for less" doesn't make so. Being charged $5 for 5 chick fingers today and $5 for 4 tomorrowisn't the same as $6 for 4.

***How ABOUT staying on property. What you're saying is that it's okay for Disney to charge more, as long as they offer you a discount?! HUH?!? ***

I'm sorry,it must be late because that makes no sense to me. With the room discounts today, does the same room at any resort cost more or less then what they were charging when WDW was running nearly 100% occupancy ? Unless I'm mistaken they are charging less. So where does "more for less" apply. And since we're discussing WDW, off-site properties are meaningless. Of course they're cheaper.


Okay, let me see if I get this right. CBR and CS both are 160.56 but I'm paying 0.04 per square foot more at CS. Well I guess I just don't have an answer for that astounding bit of information. I hope nobody who enjoys staying at CS reads this thread, I'm sure it would ruin their next trip there.

Meal Deals: What rates were jacked up ? The price of the items included in the deal didn't go up. With the meal deal you can get approx an $18.00 meal/soda/ice cream for $12.50 (or something close to those figures). Is that more for less ?

*** Sure is an unbelieveable deal. It's amazing how it's the first discount that Disney has advertised on such a huge scale. Have you ever seen ads for discount codes before the fairy tale package? I hadn't. Me thinks something stinks in the land of Disney.***

This is also confusing. What stinks ? Is this an example of more for less ?

*** I see.....you're back into that mode of "it doesn't affect me, so it doesn't matter". Does it matter that that $2 increase went into effect for the off season too? ***

The $2.00 increase affects me the same as everybody else.Only I accept the fact that prices go up. I raised my shop rate $2.00 in Jan. I guess you'd conclude that my customers are paying more for less. Of course the tech's that got pay raises may disagree with your concept but hey, this isn't about them is it.

*** Do you work for Eisner? That sounds like his rationale.***
***Mention of the bottom line, AND self-reference! You DO work for Eisner!!!! ***

Amazing comeback responses for what I experience on my vacations. I guess I should invent horror stories about trips "others" take so I'm not considered an ME employee. Heaven forbid I give an honest opinion of my trips. I'm curious if the hard working CM's out there that read this boards would be offended by your inferences to working for Eisner ? You phrase it in such a demeaning manner.


AV,

*** (and they've been through crises far worse than 9/11 – and why has everyone else recovered and not WDW)***

What could have been worse then 9/11 ? (no sarcasm intended)
And has everyone else recovered? Last week the parking lots & garages at SW and US/IOA were the same so-so filled as MK and EPCOT. The Sherraton we stayed at was just now hitting 30% occupancy. Seemed everybody was in the same boat out there.

*** unable to convince its most loyal fans to drive twenty minutes ***

Why would they spend 20 minutes driving. Can't they just walk the three blocks and get there in 5 minutes :-)

[hopemax]

While 9-11 was an overwelming tragegy in terms of human loss and our sense of safety, on an economic level it isn't as bad as the 1981-1982 recession or the recession of the 1970's.

Of course, the way the media acts you wouldn't know it.

For example, the national unemployment rate in May 2003 was 6.1%. In June 1992 it was 7.8% and in late 1982 it was 10.8% (and this was the highest rate sice 1940).

BTW, if anyone cares you can see the yearly national averages here.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/prev_yrs.htm

[EUROPA]

BTW....looks like someone has posted that Disney is in fact just cutting staff. I know its only one post but it does seem to match the Screamscape post as well...



http://disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=395505&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

Write Letters to Disney
In order for to get changes to be made at Walt Disney World, you need to write letters not only to Walt Disney World in Florida but also to the Walt Disney Company Head-Quarters in Burbank CA.

I know for a fact that staffing at Walt Disney World was Reduced or Cut-back in May 2003 at each Department in all areas at WDW in order to save money on Labor Costs, and is why the parks are not open as late as they use to be in the summer & with Fewer Parades & Shows, as well as having Slow-Service at the Attractions, Restaurants, Gift Shops and Transportation to Disney Hotels.

[crusader]

Hey I'm not excusing the guy just because I see this stuff everywhere. I've been hoping for integrity for a long time - but have yet to see any sign of it. The general consensus appears to be that a simple change at the top will automatically ressurrect Walt Disney. There has to be a little more realism in expectation here. It's ugly up there.

Oh by the way - nice editing job. Very effective.

As I have said before, I don't agree that the cutbacks are primarily responsible for the drop in attendance. It does not appear that many who are extremely vocal here are definatively leaving this place behind.

Surprisingly, the next generation of disneygoers are having a fantastic experience and identifying with the place similar to us. What that seems to imply is that the Disney of today still has the ability to surround our youth with the feeling that there is no other place like this.

We get older and see the differences and gripe about it but it may not transcend beyond this.

[KNWVIKING]

***We get older and see the differences and gripe about it but it may not transcend beyond this.***

This is where when we were kids and now our kids sorta roll their eyes up into the back of their heads as we ol' timers babble on about the "good ol' days". Wether we're talking Disney,music,television,school,clothes,etc.....

[KNWVIKING]

***While 9-11 was an overwelming tragegy in terms of human loss and our sense of safety, on an economic level it isn't as bad as the 1981-1982 recession or the recession of the 1970's. ***


I was thinking more along the lines of the sudden impact of the event. It was like everything in this country just stopped and we're still not back up to speed yet. Past recessions and recoveries have been like slow moving rollercoaster rides where 9/11 was like stepping off a cliff. My Disney history basically started in '95 so I don't know the effects the mentioned recessions had on WDW. I just think the last few years we've been hit with a lot all at once- recession,9/11,war.... Hard to imagine a worse time since Vietnam.

[Planogirl]

Economically, there have been worse times than the time since 9-11 and Disney managed to sail on through most of them. Now they seem to be stumbling a bit. :)

I am one of those happy shoppers that will notice the closed stores and while I can certainly handle fewer stores, where does it end? I remember people worrying about the closed skyride stations. Those are still sitting there appearing mighty dejected IMO. We've also lost the uniqueness of Main Street, rides that included unique audioanimatronics instead of "thrills", many musical acts (RIP Hitmen :( ), that extra chicken finger, etc. It's a little here, a little there and maybe a Mickey butter there and a submarine ride there... It just adds up to a gradual deterioration of the product or of "The Show" as the Baron puts it. Where will it end?

As for any of us going elsewhere, does a Disney fanatic cutting back on time spent at WDW and exploring other options instead count? I can't quit going to WDW cold turkey. I'm too hopeful that things will improve and yes, I still have a good time. It's not as good as it once was though so I'm looking around at other options and it's fun! Is this what Disney wants? I doubt whether Michael Eisner cares one way or the other what the Disney fanatics do.

Besides, remember that most vacationers aren't Disney fanatics, they just want to have a nice time on vacation.

[mickey2001]

Disney is looking for a NEW crowd with the FTP. People who DON"T remember what it was like and know no better! Thus they won't complain. Almost like they are on a mission to create a new customer base and not worry about their past loyal customers. They miust really be hurting when they have to make simple cuts as these. And I'm sorry , my CM friend who is a security person at MK still says that MK is VERY SLOW and that Disney inflates their estimates in hopes of making people believe its full.
As I said before its a quick way for Disney to make fast money. I'm surprised no one mentioned the cut back hours at PI which have been in place for months. These cut backs in services and staff throughout the property were planned long ago.

The thing that worries me with a smaller staff and somewhat larger crowds will be security at the parks!

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by thedscoop
...here's the deal. I've been out of town on business since the day after The World is Just That Simple Baron started this thread;)

Could somebody please save me some time and do a one or two paragraph summary. By looking at the last page, the discussion now appears to involve Stickers and 9/11...which, at first glance anyway, doesn't sound like much to do with early closings in Frontierland...

Thanks!
I think this thread has touched about all the bases...............................

Prices, quality, quantity, subjective based (how it affects me) vs. objective based (how it affects WDW) analysis of hours/attractions, etc., todays business environs vs. those of yesteryear and how that impedes or doesn't impede people from being as successful today as Walt was in the past, the effect 9-11/the current down market/war have today vs. the economic difficulties of the past, attendance, the ever closing gap between Disney and the competition which makes Waltonian success something that couldn't be replicated today, philosophy, tradition.........................and even the almighty chicken finger.

Pick your topic and jump in. I bet you won't believe this, but 9 pages and Baron and I might only account for a half - and most of my keystrokes were dedicated to agreeing with the Baronmeister. It is nice to see some relatively newer folk discuss topics we have been over time and again - and have some of them dual with the dark side ;).

As for the stickers.........................you got me :confused:. My guess is that it is one of AV's nebulous derogatory allusions to something he thinks the car 1 and 2 types are suckers for :earseek:.

[Pinnie]

DisneyKidds,

Great Cliff Note version!!!

I did speak to a friend of mine who is a CM. He worked on Saturday night at the MK and said "Some of those shops don't do SQAUT in the evenings." and that staff could be pulled to areas that are in more need. There are times that he said the only action he got at his store was people coming in asking for quarters for the shooting gallery.

Staffing IS an issue. There are fewer College interns this year. My DS was approved for the program but pulled out when his university was going to refuse to give him credit. He can't afford to blow off a semester with NO credit.

He did make an interesting statement. Think about those pin carts. Everyone of them has a CM...if they closed THOSE, there would be enough staff to reopen stores!

pin

[CasualObserver]

Kidds,

I don't think I could possibly have done such a succinct summarization of this thread.


... and to even remember the chicken fingers! What thread would be complete without the chicken fingers.


Casual Observer

[KNWVIKING]

***It is nice to see some relatively newer folk discuss topics we have been over time and again - and have some of them dual with the dark side ***

I guess you mean me? Let me ask: Does anyone ever concede anything ? Any chance of a "you know,you're right. I never thought of it like that" ? Otherwise this is a tremendous waste of time. But it has been fun.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING


I guess you mean me? Let me ask: Does anyone ever concede anything ? Any chance of a "you know,you're right. I never thought of it like that" ? Otherwise this is a tremendous waste of time. But it has been fun.

No. Even the main point as to Why Disney is down is not conceded by either side.

You have the side that says its the 9/11 and bad economy.

Then you have the side that says Disney was going down before then and Quality, bad Investments and cutting services are the problems.

[DisneyKidds]

I guess you mean me? Let me ask: Does anyone ever concede anything ? Any chance of a "you know,you're right. I never thought of it like that" ? Otherwise this is a tremendous waste of time. But it has been fun.
Not just you, but it is nice to see you keep 'em on their toes. As for your question, well - that is a very dangerous one...................

Let me just say this. We travel on a street that goes in both directions, yet I only see learning go on in one ;). I think we ALL have something to learn, but one side of the aisle seems less inclined.....................OK, enough getting myself in hot water. Before you know it, this could lead to a new crop of modertors in the chilly vastness of the Disney internet :eek:.

Waste of time? Have you seen some of the past discussions we've had, and the time I've invested on a few of them ;). While it may not have moved some of us far from our beliefs, I have learned a lot about the history of Disney and I don't feel my time has been wasted, as is evidence by the fact that I am still here :).

And yes, it still can be fun. Anyway, I don't need someone from the dark side to admit it to know that I am right :p :cool: :smooth: ;).

[DisneyKidds]

All that being said, what's really the big deal?
I won't go into a chilly, Baronesque or AV-like diatribe on exactly what the big deal is, but I will state my agreement with Baron from this thread. It is simply bad Show. Why is that important?

I always think about my visits to other amusement parks. Take Hershey Park the last couple of times for instance. Every time I go I always notice all the closed shops and eating establishments. You know me, I'm not a nit-picky hard-a@@ looking for a reason to be frustrated ;), but I really do notice those closed establishments. It gives the park a desolate feeling, kind of dead and abandoned, lacking a certain joie de vive that makes for exciting atmosphere. Furthermore, I believe it is something specific that Walt made sure never happened in HIS parks. WDW is as much about Show as it is attractions, and bad Show has an impact. Add to that that it might very well be an inconvenience to some (if you absolutely have to have those baubles from Agrabah and you will only be in the MK until 10:30) and I think it is a bad idea. As I also said in my agreement with herr Baron, Disney needs to be a little more original in dealing with their problems that the tired old cut costs by reducing service (and diminishing Show) response.

I'm not sure if it was related to this new schedule for shops in the lands, but in May we wanted to get a Dole Whip and the place didn't open until 11:15. That really sucked.

BTW - you are welcome.

[d-r]

Maybe he means if you put a Disney sticker on a box we'd ride in it?

Maybe he means like the stickers that you give to kids to make them happy - it is just a cheap thing that you give them?

SnackyStacky-- do you really choose hotel rooms based on cost per square foot? Because as a consumer, I might decide that the newerness of coronado makes up for the difference in square foot - but yeah, CBR was the first "moderate" - the first resort not right next to a park - and it was built with bigger rooms - smaller than the ones that existed at the other resorts then, but bigger than the moderates built since then-

DR

[KNWVIKING]

***I have learned a lot about the history of Disney and I don't feel my time has been wasted, as is evidence by the fact that I am still here .***

Gotta agree with ya there. I now know more about Disney then I ever imagined I'd want to.

[crusader]

As for the stickers.........................you got me

I believe this was a shot fired in the general direction of yours truly to obliterate a certain smiley.

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by crusader
I believe this was a shot fired in the general direction of yours truly to obliterate a certain smiley.
Perhaps, as I know how much some people REALLY love those smilies.

pssst...... sometimes it is the only reason I use 'em ;).


:tongue:

[SnackyStacky]

Yes. I pick a hotel based on cost per square foot. Oy.

Was my point really THAT missed?!!?!?!

Disney can't cut measures SO abruptly that you're paying $50 for a stuffed toy instead of $20. SO, they cut things like chicken fingers, jack up the room rates a couple bucks....SMALL things that most people don't even notice. But yet, people are still getting less, and Disney's bottom line is miraculously UP!

I wouldn't have gotten that nit picky if someone hadn't suggested that they're getting less for same, and then brought up resorts.

Anyway, I had a whole reply formulated in my head, but I just don't have the energy to type it out. Sewage is spewing out of the ground in front of my house, and I've been trying to get surly state construction crews to let me use my own parking lot!!!!!!! Oy.

[d-r]

It's OK. I get it. Of course they do!
DR

[raidermatt]

All that being said, what's really the big deal?

DK's response sums up the big deal in five words:
It is simply bad Show.

Bad show is bad for business. Boarded up storefronts, or even just dark empty ones, give a bad impression, and exude a feeling of failure. They break the illusion and crush the fantasy. Yeah, its worse when its attractions, but restaurants and stores have the same effect.

I still feel bad for our friend gcurling, who simply wanted to purchase an ice tea for his wife, but couldn't find a place to do so because everything was closed a 1/2 hour before the park closed. (alright, not everything, be he tried several places, which he shouldn't have to do)

[KNWVIKING]

We arrive on Wednesday for the long weekend. While I originally had no plans on venturing into the parks due to crowds I'm anticipating, I think now I'm going to have to see for myself just what is and isn't closed and if the park feels differently to me.

[mickey2001]

Hey Viking, were neighbors! I'm from South Jersey Washington Twp. Near the Deptford Mall. We are flying in to Orlando in the morning for 10 nights at VB & WDW.
Mickey

[KNWVIKING]

taking the 7:00 am out of AC or heading over to Philly ? If you've never been to VB, you're going to love it...great resort.

[mickey2001]

Taking the 7 AM out of phil.
Have a great trip! Thanks..........:D :bounce: :Pinkbounc :D

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by thedscoop
But, its simply a case of a store closing 120 minutes or less early because everybody is getting lined up for the parade, fireworks, or finishing rides on Space or Splash, then that just doesn't fit into the bad show category for me.



Ahh...so there is some set number of guest that has to notice the closed stores before it becomes bad show?

[raidermatt]

1- Parades/fireworks aren't nightly.
2- Not everyone lines up for them. A significant enough number do not.
3- Granted, operating Adventureland for fewer hours would be worse, but then again, that never actually happened. Its not like we're talking about extended operating hours here, either...still shorter hours, now with more closed "commodity outlets".

Come to think about it, if stores and restaurants are being referred to as commodity outlets, its not hard to figure out why the idea of "bad Show" gets lost. With a name like that, it would be easy to forget its even a part of the Show... (Not a knock on you personally, Scoopy)

[Another Voice]

Why do early store closings matter?

How come those very same stores were profitable enough to remain open a few years ago when attendance in the Magic Kingdom was lower than it was today? How could the park afford to stay open longer with even fewer paying gets?


Stickers

Some people are interested just to hold a box with a Disney&reg; sticker and will happily accept whatever's on the inside. Other people actually care what's on the inside and won't shell out their money until they see.

The fans are one group, the public is another.

[Glenn]

First i should say that ive been going to WDW since the later 80s & 3 of the last 4 yrs. Im wondering what is with disney now days. The MK seems to be busy(friends there in the last 2 wks had hour+ waits) but they close at 7. Sure doesnt give you a chance to go back to the room for rest(then why stay on site). Why do they have to close stores. If there a little slow go down to 1 or 2 clerks. At $6/hr you dont have to sell much to make a profit. As they cut back when will new folk say it was nice but not worth the travel & expense to come back for a good long while. I believe the cutting will reduce the experience & reduce the repeats. Look at Epcot still no parade, the saloon is closed in adventureland and on and on. Im a disney nut but fear they will keep taking away a little here & there and just become another theme park.

[crusader]

How could the park afford to stay open longer with even fewer paying gets?

It couldn't. The old "keep the show going" approach was sucking up big dollars into a vacuum, trying to maintain the parks as fully operational when in reality you only had 25-40% capacity. The cutbacks were more gradual than they appear. You are only feeling the full effect of them now because they seem so apparant due to the sheer magnitude. Not to mention the fact that we do benefit from this little thing called the internet.

[Pinnie]

Crusader,

Thank you....a voice of reason!!!!!

Glad to see someone gets it!!!



pin

[EUROPA]

I just wish that those with Rose Colored Glasses would get their stories straight You guys keep flip flopping back and forth and keep coming up with wilder and wilder explanations for the problems.

I'll put the list out and you guys pick one and agree on it. Feel free to add to it as well.

1. Problems at Disney- There are no problems its a magical as ever.

2. None of these things effect my family so it's not a problem for us.

3. Disney is a business.

4. 9-11 and the bad economy are to blame.

5. You can't please today's customers.

6. Disney is merely training more people to work that is why they are cutting back on the hours that the stores are open.

7. They built Mission Space and have announced EE so everything is fine now.

8. Attendance is up due to all of these great deals they are offering.

9. Attendance is down that is why they are cutting staff.

[crusader]

Europa -

It's not rose colored glasses. It's just patience coupled with a bit of practicum. I don't see this industry giant toppling so I'm not jumping on your Disney is a "very bad company and it's all because of Eisner" bandwagon. I happen to be looking beyond the scope of this superficial membrane.

Do a little random surveying yourself my friend. I'll admit I never claimed to be a proponent of the "magic" market but I can't deny its' impact. Truly astounding.

Oh and by the way omit the words "is" and "are" for point 9 and insert the words "was" and "have" respectively - at least for the next few months anyway. (and change the tense for "cutting" )

[DisneyKidds]

Glad to see someone gets it!!!
But here is what you guys aren't getting. Sure, it was fine for Disney to make the cuts they did in response to certain events. I have said that many times in the past and believe it to be true. However, do you believe that when/if attendance is back and guests visits exceed the levels that Disney had back in the mid 90's (before the cuts started) that the hours, etc. of that time will return? Unfortnately, I don't believe that will ever happen. I think summer hours until midnight are a pipe dream, even if MK attendance were to be double what it was in 1995. Either disagree with me on that, or explain how that could possibly be ok under your justifications.

IMHO, the reduced hours we are seeing now have become more standard operating procedure than necessary response to bad economic conditions. That is truely unfortunate.

[KNWVIKING]

I don't think anybody agrees with #1. We all see some decline.

***2. None of these things effect my family so it's not a problem for us.

3. Disney is a business.

4. 9-11 and the bad economy are to blame.

5. You can't please today's customers.

6. Disney is merely training more people to work that is why they are cutting back on the hours that the stores are open.

7. They built Mission Space and have announced EE so everything is fine now.

8. Attendance is up due to all of these great deals they are offering.

9. Attendance is down that is why they are cutting staff.***

Since #2 appears directed at me I'll start here. Just like Pirate doesn't think Nemo is the greatest or I don't like Alfredos, we are all affected differently. I didn't like to see EE (not the ride) disappear,but I wasn't outraged because I never used it anyway. I don't know if Car 3'ers used EE, but they were outraged because to them it was another "chip" gone. The people who use EE were the ones truely injured.

3.Yes it is a business.A very unique one,but a business none the less with stock holders who don't care about pixie dust.

4. Not entirely, but they are a contributing factor. How much so, well we can debate that till we're blue in the finger but we just won't ever know the truth.

5. Yes you can,just not all of them. I operate a GMC service department. I can fix a higher percentage of trucks then I can owners. Some people expect their truck to have the ride of their Caddy just because they both cost the same.Ain't goin' to happen.

6. Has anybody posted an absolute fact as to why the stores are closing. I think number 6 clasifies as an "I don't know,maybe this is why". Car 1-2 IMO will see a problem and try to determine a reason it happened, Car 3 people just scream foul. Just look at the title of the OT, is it what has really occured in MK, or was the posters intention to create a thread like this. It's interesting that I posted a little blurb from another site that stated MGM was actually extending the hours of some of its restaurants which was totally ignored. guess good news don't count.

7. No, alls not fine,but it's a step-a big step to some- in the right direction.

8 & 9. kinda go hand in hand. Attendance down,cut the workforce. Put out a discount,huge success, MK got caught with their pants down.

***I'll put the list out and you guys pick one and agree on it. Feel free to add to it as well.***

#10: A little bit of most of the above.

That's my choice. I'm done now. On to other threads.

[raidermatt]

Scoop, if the parks are being forced into closing storefronts and/or restaurants to meet a budget number, things are not better. They are just making choices that aren't as bad.

The lessor of two evils is still evil.

(Yes, the use of the word evil is hyperbole...)

The cutbacks were more gradual than they appear. You are only feeling the full effect of them now because they seem so apparant due to the sheer magnitude. Nobody is saying there have been a sudden increase in cutbacks. Most are saying the cutbacks have been very gradual and have been happening for many years. Its just that now, Disney has some issues outside of its control that have allowed them to accelerate the cutbacks over the last 18 months or so.

Oh and by the way omit the words "is" and "are" for point 9 and insert the words "was" and "have" respectively - at least for the next few months anyway. (and change the tense for "cutting" ) If stores are closing, staff IS being cut. At least from an FTE perspective, if not from a headcount perspective.

I just continually amazed at the dark black-colored glasses crew that haven't seen a recognizable shift in WDW since Pressler left. Likewise I am amazed at how low expectations have sunk. Yeah, there may have been a shift, but again, "not as bad" doesn't cut it.

[hopemax]

Back on page 2, which I'm assuming Scoop didn't read, I said...



I just thought of something, don't know if it's why or not, but it's the only thing I can think of. A few years ago DL, shuttered a bunch of things around July 17th. The same questions were asked, why would all of this stuff stop the week of DL's actual 45th birthday?

The rumored culprit was, that as DL approached the end of it's fiscal year, there wasn't enough money to fund everything. Given the state of the rest of the company, and the attitude Burbank has for the parks these days, it's not like the parks can go ask Burbank for money, no matter if the crowds are there or not.

DL took the path of decreasing operating hours of many of it's attractions (Mark Twain, Tiki Room, Toontown), and shutting a few down altogether (Jolly Trolley). The reaction to that was, "People come to ride the rides, why shut them down!"

Now, if WDW is facing a similar budget crunch, which kinda makes sense. They were given budget for a certain level of crowds, and if it's higher (or is projected to be higher because of the FTP) they know they are going to need extra staffing on the attractions, custodial, security. The money has to come from somewhere, and if Burbank isn't going to give them anymore, it means cuts at WDW. WDW seems to be taking the "leave the attractions alone" route, and even re-opening COP (which is good), and shutting secondary services like shopping and dining.

As a guest, which would you prefer? Attractions closing early, or something else?

In DL, October came, the new budget was released and many of the summer cutbacks were rescinded.



Then Scoop said


But, what is important to me is that, if WDW or Attractions is being told it must cut more at the end of the old fiscal year (or beginning of the new one however you'd like to phrase it), then the first thing approached for these cuts are not attractions and shows but instead retail overhead.




So while I guessed right about the "end of the fiscal year" thing, you appear to be saying that it wasn't "unexpected higher costs due to an uptick in attendance" that is the problem, but Burbank pulling more budget away?

Well, that really sucks, because even if all the disillusioned Disney fans were to hop down to WDW, IT WON'T MAKE A BIT OF DIFFERENCE. Burbank is still going to be like that scene from Disney's Robin Hood where the Sheriff of Nottingham takes the coin out of the poor box to help "Poor, poor Prince John."

[DisneyKidds]

I just continually amazed at the dark black-colored glasses crew that haven't seen a recognizable shift in WDW since Pressler left.
Sorry Scoop, you can't get off that easy. First off, you know I wear anything but dark black-colored glasses. I belived that EE would come back. I believe there are good things happening and great new stuff in the pipeline. I believe it so much that I have created moderators on other sites ;). However, the return of midnight hours is beyond the stretch of even my imagination.

As for the shift since the departure of Pressler, I agree with you. What you missed in not reading this whole thread was my disagreement with Baron. He implied that Rasulo is no different than Pressler given that both have demanded cuts. I, like you, pointed out that Presslers cuts gave us DinoRama, and Rasulo is cutting other things to give us the likes of Everest. No, Rasulo is not Pressler and there has been a shift, and that is why my optimism is on the uptake. However, if Disney can mend attendance with hours no later than 10:00, what incentive will they have to bring back midnight hours? None, absolutely none.

[raidermatt]

I would "Hope" (pun intended ;) ) that the parks' budgets allow for increases in variable costs that correspond to higher attendance (as well as cost decreases for lower attendance).

That's pretty basic stuff.

[KNWVIKING]

Are the four theme parks treated as seperate entities when it comes to manpower. It appears that while MK is out of man hour funds till the next budget, MGM is adding hours to some things. Can't they sorta rob Peter to pay Paul ?

[hopemax]

That's a good question, I just looked at the MK vs MGM for hours in June.

MK: 364 hours
MGM: 370 hours

Also the MK had 38 total fireworks and Specto performances, MGM had 40 performances of Fantasmic! It's kind of odd which park is better off, and somehow I doubt that at the end of the year MGM will be pulling in the 14 million guests per year and the MK will only be pulling in 8 million.

So what's going on?

[raidermatt]

Can't say for sure about the current hours in each park. It has always seemed strange to me that MGM, along with AK and Epcot for that matter, can have such consistent hours, yet MK requires swings of 3 or 4 hours in the same week. But perhaps the attendance at MK is really that volitile???

Perhaps the costs of running MK are so much higher than the other parks (due to its number of attractions/stores/etc), that Disney finds it worth their while to try to manage costs day-to-day. As opposed to the other parks where an hour or two difference in closing doesn't make as much of a bottom line difference, so the micro-management isn't worth their time??? (Just talking out of my "ear", but that's what comes to mind immediately)

Also the MK had 38 total fireworks and Specto performances, MGM had 40 performances of Fantasmic! An even better time to ask this question is during slow periods, when MK often has one parade and fireworks show per WEEK, while MGM (and Epcot) still have one every NIGHT. I've always assumed its because the other parks NEED those shows to get folks in the door (and keep them for more than a few hours), while MK can still draw well enough without them, at least without having them every night.

If the goal was to have these shows where the most people are, it would be MK that has the most showings...

[KNWVIKING]

mostly I was refering to the ABC Commisary and Backlot Express staying open 7 days a week now. MK is closing things,MGM is opening things. If MGM has the manpower for this, why doesn't MK.


***An even better time to ask this question is during slow periods, when MK often has one parade and fireworks show per WEEK, while MGM (and Epcot) still have one every NIGHT. I've always assumed its because the other parks NEED those shows to get folks in the door (and keep them for more than a few hours), while MK can still draw well enough without them, at least without having them every night.***

I've thought that also. Everybody goes to MK regardless, the others need a real show stopper sometimes to get us in.

[Dznefreek]

If MGM has the manpower for this, why doesn't MK. Especially since we are always told MK is the most popular park.

[BibbidyBobbidyBoo]

All I know is I was VERY irritated during my trip last Jan when the restaurants (counter service) were closed up 2 hours before the park closed! Here I was all ready to go eat- and either the doors are locked or you open them to find CMs telling you they are closed.
I was like but the park doesn't close for 2hrs yet!!!!!!! They just shrugged.
Ridiculous.

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
mostly I was refering to the ABC Commisary and Backlot Express staying open 7 days a week now. MK is closing things,MGM is opening things. If MGM has the manpower for this, why doesn't MK.

MGM did cut out the character meals at Hollywood & Vine which might kind of offset the longer hours at the counter service places. I would guess that counter service restaurants are cheaper to run. :(