Disney Closing Animal Kingdom?

[Laurajean1014]

A frequent WDW recently spoke to an employee of corporate Disney and they said that Disney will close AK! Is this true or does it have any merit?

I understand it is not as showie as the other parks, but that would be a first, even for Disney in these tough times.

Do you think they may close it for a month? Forever?

Please let me know what you hear.

L

[BrianD]

Well, considering that they just recently announced a new major attraction, Expedition Everest, I doubt it will be closing any time soon. I'm sure that is just an untrue rumor.

[Crazy Hakim]

I seriously doubt that this has any truth.

Mike

[Laurajean1014]

I agree.

First of all, that would be a first at Disney. It would be admitting to a failure, (although I do not see AK as a failure).

I do admit that it's not as ride packed as the other parks! Kali River, Killimonjaro, Dinasaur, Bug's Life and Lion King seem to be the biggest draws.

I would think that Disney (to get the crowds in) would invest more into it to get more out of it. Also, AK has two feeders, Rainforest Cafe and the AKL.

Anymore news or interpretations???

[wtg2000]

and they said that Disney will close AK! Is this true or does it have any merit? True. Disney closes AK every night at 5pm!

Sounds like just another (yawn) far-fetched rumor.

[Laurajean1014]

See, that's how rumors get started.

Someone said the park is closing soon, and everyone thinks it gone for good.

Snappy comeback. I like that.

[Lewisc]

After 9-11 there was some talk about not opening the park 7 days a week.

[OnWithTheShow]

ha

[raidermatt]

There were rumors about AK and possibly other WDW parks closing on certain days of the week in slower seasons. Several posters with inside info, including one who is not part of the car 3/4 crowd, have "validated" that this was in fact under serious consideration, but the idea has been beaten back.

[Dznefreek]

Since operating hours areonly 9-5 for the most part it may as well close.

Remember the 7am openings when you could go see the safari animals at their most active!

[Peter Pirate]

Mr. Matt, with all due respect to Scoop and while I agree that there was discussion of 'dark days' at WDW. My sources tell me it was never very serious. It was thrown out as a possible 'stop-gap' should things have gotten worse...You know more terror, etc...

Also, it'll be very intersting to see attendance reports when they come out as word of mouth (including my own) has had AK quite busy most all of the time...Even when other parks, including USF were not...

wtg2000, great line! This is the only time AK will be closing...

[OnWithTheShow]

"Since operating hours areonly 9-5 for the most part it may as well close.

Remember the 7am openings when you could go see the safari animals at their most active!"

So then 9-5 allows you to see the same amount as if the park was closed? I think not. Also as the animals became adjusted to the park they are now the most active in the afternoon. Heck, all the worlds business that only operate 9-5 might as well just close.

[Lewisc]

Originally posted by OnWithTheShow
"Since operating hours areonly 9-5 for the most part it may as well close.

Remember the 7am openings when you could go see the safari animals at their most active!"

So then 9-5 allows you to see the same amount as if the park was closed? I think not. Also as the animals became adjusted to the park they are now the most active in the afternoon. Heck, all the worlds business that only operate 9-5 might as well just close.

Not sure what the poster meant but some people might prefer longer hours in exchange for the park being closed 1 or 2 days a week. I have no trouble with 9-5.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Peter Pirate
Mr. Matt, with all due respect to Scoop and while I agree that there was discussion of 'dark days' at WDW. My sources tell me it was never very serious. It was thrown out as a possible 'stop-gap' should things have gotten worse...You know more terror, etc...



Wait a minute...I thought that was so the anaimals could "rest". :rolleyes: Or at least that was the story at the time.

[Laurajean1014]

I like AK! It took sometime for me to get used the differences from AK to the other parks, but now I enjoy it!

It would be cool if they added a Finding Nemo ride to AK and get the waterlife involved, but I do not think Austrailia was in there plans at AK.

[blackshirt]

Originally posted by OnWithTheShow
"Since operating hours areonly 9-5 for the most part it may as well close.

Remember the 7am openings when you could go see the safari animals at their most active!"

So then 9-5 allows you to see the same amount as if the park was closed? I think not. Also as the animals became adjusted to the park they are now the most active in the afternoon. Heck, all the worlds business that only operate 9-5 might as well just close.

DATELINE JUNE 2003 ORLANDO FLORIDA!!!!
DISNEY SUCCEEDS IN ALTERING 100,000 YEARS OF EVOLUTION!!!
The Walt Disney Company has announced that they have succeeded in changing the nocturnal sleeping habits of their zoo like animals in Orlando Florida. Although animals, in general, sleep in the hot humid afternoon, Disney's use of positive reinforcement and image enhancement therapy has resulted in animals being so awake and animated in the afternoons that many have collapsed from heat stroke. Nonetheless, a Disney spokesman announced that the animals did not die in vain. The animals died happy in the knowledge that they were providing the ultimate vacation experience for Disney World guests: albeit from 9-5 to suit the needs of the business. Donations in the name of these brave creatures can be sent to the Eisner Corporation(no relation to Michael Eisner, immediate family that is)

[Peter Pirate]

Yeah man! I just renewed our annual passes! Not what you had in mind I'll bet?;)

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by blackshirt
DATELINE JUNE 2003 ORLANDO FLORIDA!!!!
DISNEY SUCCEEDS IN ALTERING 100,000 YEARS OF EVOLUTION!!!
The Walt Disney Company has announced that they have succeeded in changing the nocturnal sleeping habits of their zoo like animals in Orlando Florida. Although animals, in general, sleep in the hot humid afternoon, Disney's use of positive reinforcement and image enhancement therapy has resulted in animals being so awake and animated in the afternoons that many have collapsed from heat stroke. Nonetheless, a Disney spokesman announced that the animals did not die in vain. The animals died happy in the knowledge that they were providing the ultimate vacation experience for Disney World guests: albeit from 9-5 to suit the needs of the business. Donations in the name of these brave creatures can be sent to the Eisner Corporation(no relation to Michael Eisner, immediate family that is)
Maybe they're audioanimatronic? ;)

True story. The Houston zoo once subbed a rubber coral snake for the longest time for a real one that had died. It was only discovered because the fake snake never moved and got a bit dusty. OT I know but you reminded me of that for some reason. :)

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by blackshirt
DATELINE JUNE 2003 ORLANDO FLORIDA!!!!
DISNEY SUCCEEDS IN ALTERING 100,000 YEARS OF EVOLUTION!!!
The Walt Disney Company has announced that they have succeeded in changing the nocturnal sleeping habits of their zoo like animals in Orlando Florida. Although animals, in general, sleep in the hot humid afternoon, Disney's use of positive reinforcement and image enhancement therapy has resulted in animals being so awake and animated in the afternoons that many have collapsed from heat stroke. Nonetheless, a Disney spokesman announced that the animals did not die in vain. The animals died happy in the knowledge that they were providing the ultimate vacation experience for Disney World guests: albeit from 9-5 to suit the needs of the business. Donations in the name of these brave creatures can be sent to the Eisner Corporation(no relation to Michael Eisner, immediate family that is)

LOL!!

[airlarry!]

Definition of Synergy*:

Having a movie you produce hit the top of the charts for four solid weeks, threaten to take over top spot of unadjusted for inflation Biggest Animated Movie ever, have said movie set in Australia

AND

Have a giant park dedicated to animals, real and imagined, with lots of people complaining that it is still only a 1/2 or 3/4 day park, and not having an AUSTRALIAN section in the park

AND

not announcing at least plans for expansion of said park in time for the movie's release to tie in the success of the movie with wonderfully creative rides, attractions, shows, walk-throughs, and exhibits based on said movie and its Australian habitat.

* Not in Webster's dictionary. Check Ei$ner's New Abridged Dctnry (sorry but had to cut the vowels out--10% removal of vowels may increase the bottom line 10%).

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by airlarry!
Definition of Synergy*:


* Not in Webster's dictionary. Check Ei$ner's New Abridged Dctnry (sorry but had to cut the vowels out--10% removal of vowels may increase the bottom line 10%).

Or starting making movies out of 20-30 year old theme park attractions. One of which you close down before releasing the movie. I just can't wait for the movie about the Monorail! :bounce:

[blackshirt]

Originally posted by Peter Pirate
Yeah man! I just renewed our annual passes! Not what you had in mind I'll bet?;)

My mantra "Vote with your wallet" extents far beyond WDW. If a customer is unhappy with the services being provided by a company, the best way of letting that company know that you are dissatisfied is to not support that company. Even in these BLEAK times for WDW, however, I must admit we still buy passes for the MK on each trip to Orlando. Hypocrite? Well, possibly. But, IMO,the MK still holds its value on certain days.(fireworks, parades,etc.):sunny:

[OnWithTheShow]

Not to get into the half day park argument, but it still takes me the whole day to do Animal Kingdom. Also, if you would like my a copy of my videos of the animals active in the afternoon I could send it to you. I only have video from one day, but I could start doing it everyday I go (about once a week) if it would get you to believe me.

[pr surfer]

Originally posted by EUROPA
I just can't wait for the movie about the Monorail!

only if it's a musical! :jester:

[grinningghost]

First off, I like AK. I like it alot. It's a good park, especially on the 3rd or 4th day, after you've been running commando at MK or MGM. You can slow down there. But even if AK were declared a "huge disaster" by Disney (which won't happen), it's unlikely they would close it down completely without trying some other things out first. Everest, it seems is a definite go. It would be crazy for them to close the park now. Lots of people are looking forward to Everest, and even planning a trip to coincide with it's opening.

Nasty rumor. Don't listen.;)

[DrKnow77]

I remember when MGM Disney Studios first opened up and it was just as "boring" as AK is now. They had very few attractions and not much to do. Now MGM is one of my favorite parks and there is a ton of things to do.... give the AK some time and it will be just as great as the other parks!

[HB2K]

Not to get into the half day park argument, but it still takes me the whole day to do Animal Kingdom.

That's wonderful show.

But the cold hard facts show that the MAJORITY of guests percieve DAK to be a Half a day park and bad value compared to other theme park options.

I remember when MGM Disney Studios first opened up and it was just as "boring" as AK is now. They had very few attractions and not much to do. Now MGM is one of my favorite parks and there is a ton of things to do.... give the AK some time and it will be just as great as the other parks!
It's funny you say that....

I remember my FIRST trip to DAK. At this time, I was a FIXTURE in what is now the car 1 mindset....I couldn't WAIT to see Disney's latest theme park....

and I went with my family (Mom, Dad & Siblings). And I remember looking at the tree of life with my father at about 1:00 in the afternoon and he asked me what I thought of the place (since we had just finished everything).

My reply?

It's not bad, but there just seems like there's nothing here.

His response?

Yeah, well just give them time...I bet they have big plans for this place....

Fast Forward to today (about 8-10 years later).

How much time do they need? The place has largely been static other than opening Asia & DinoRama.

Disney's policy of ignoring DAK after opening it as a shell is what put me in car 3. The recent cutbacks have pushed me further into car 4.

P.S. the above also happened at the Boardwalk. We figured Disney had BIG plans for the place, and guess what....it's still the same as it was back then.

[Peter Pirate]

The cold hard facts show that the MAJORITY of guests perceive DAK to be a half day park...

What "cold hard facts" are these? The attendance numbers that still show AK ahead of IOA & USF in attendance? Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you been touting these USF Parks as great? Yet, they're simply1/2 day Parks by your criteria...

You claim the place (AK) has remained "static" after throwing out two major additions. You may not like the quality of these attactions and for sure Disney can (and will) do better - 'E:E' has been announced, right? But dismissing what's been offered (because you don't like it) is hardly a legitimate argument.

With regard to the Boardwalk, what more could you have possibly expected? It is what it is in the space available and fulfills an entertainment/dining need as well as providing a diferent ambiance...

Lastly, with regard to AK's attendance numbers, I believe that when this years numbers come out AK WILL NOT BE the Park indicating the biggest problem. EVERY time we have gone to WDW this year we have always gone to AK twice. AK has been busier than both other parks (other than MK). This opinion is further evidenced by reading trip reports here on this board (Rumors & News) indicating that AK crowds have been healthy...

AK my never be the typical theme park, but it is loved by many faithfull followers and it offers a great diversion in theme park entertainment for many and is far from being a 1/2 day Park...

[DisneyKidds]

What "cold hard facts" are these?
Pirate..................thanks for saving me the keystrokes ;). Rediculous the 'facts' that some people feel qualified to throw around. Now if someone wants to make statements like 'AK is the least attended of the Disney parks', or 'Based on my experience it appears that crowds thin in the AK by X o'clock', etc - fine. Some of that may be true and some may just be personal experience, but "cold hard facts that the MAJORITY" of the public considers AK to be a half day park.............please :rolleyes: :crazy:.

[Samirella]

Originally posted by HB2K
Fast Forward to today (about 8-10 years later).



Actually, 8-10 years later would be fast forwarding to tomorrow since DAK has only been open five years. So, you just fast forwarded to 2006-2008. In August 2005 a new $120 million attraction is tentatively set to open. As of yet, we don't know what else will come by 2008.

[d-r]

"Having a movie you produce hit the top of the charts for four solid weeks, threaten to take over top spot of unadjusted for inflation Biggest Animated Movie ever, have said movie set in Australia"

Larry - I didn't know the rescuers down under was that big of a hit! Just kidding, I really wish for an Australia, too, and I think it would be the best place for a soarin.


DR

[Dznefreek]

If I remember correctly USF runs about 14 million a year. Isn't Epcot, DAK less than that??????????

[d-r]

Is 14 thousand the number of students at the University of South Florida? Or is 14 million the number of attendance for the studio park numbers and the IOA park numbers added together?

[Dznefreek]

Fourteen million for just USF without IOA. This figure was given long before IOA opened.

[Laurajean1014]

AK is one of our favorite parks! We don't mind that it opens at around 9 and closes at 6! We go so often, that I'm just like the wild life there. I want to have a nice day, go home and enjoy the evening with my family..... ;)

Like dining at Jiko..... yummy.

[Laurajean1014]

Also, if I was only looking for quantity, I wouln't be at Disney, I'd be at the $3.99 buffet!

I think AK is a great value at a walk up price of $52!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[HB2K]

What "cold hard facts" are these? The attendance numbers that still show AK ahead of IOA & USF in attendance? Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you been touting these USF Parks as great? Yet, they're simply1/2 day Parks by your criteria...

Apples to Oranges.

Yes I rah rah the UO parks on these boards. I feel they're doing all the right things to grow their business whereas Disney seems like it's trying to shrink it's customer base.

Disney's Animal Kingdom's primary function is to stretch guest's vacations for an extra day, not compete with UO (which it's not doing well at....the last report I saw showed Universal Studios Park ahead of DAK). Excluding the first year, the parks' attendance has been horrid when compared to it's sister parks (the real measuring stick). The park has a BUILT IN customer base from the other three parks, yet it struggles and continually disappoints with regards to attendance.

This FACT has been well documented not only in the press, but as well as discussed here on these boards. While some may not agree with the "half day park" conclusion, the attendance numbers have NEVER been disputed....and the most reported guest complaint? There's not enough to do here...

You claim the place (AK) has remained "static" after throwing out two major additions.
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you daring to call DinoRama a "major" attraction?

Walt's turning in his grave....

BTW I do not count Asia as an expansion. It was opened so close to the park it seemed like it was supposed to be a part of the original opening. But that's just my opinion....your mileage may vary. All in all that park has remained very static since it's inseption.

Some of that may be true and some may just be personal experience, but "cold hard facts that the MAJORITY" of the public considers AK to be a half day park.............please
What have you seen the park reported as? All of the press given to the park allude to it's less than desirable attraction count.

Actually, 8-10 years later would be fast forwarding to tomorrow since DAK has only been open five years. So, you just fast forwarded to 2006-2008. In August 2005 a new $120 million attraction is tentatively set to open. As of yet, we don't know what else will come by 2008.
OK I'll admit I didn't do my research before throwing out the 8-10 yr window. For some reason I thought DAK opened in 94 but after running a quick google search I discovered the park opened April 98. So I was wrong. Fast forward 5 years.

P.S. Don't count your mountains before they've hatched. Remember the WRE!

I think AK is a great value at a walk up price of $52!
Compared to a day at Magic Kingdom for the same price?????

Also, if I was only looking for quantity, I wouln't be at Disney, I'd be at the $3.99 buffet!
Or the wonderfull, quality DinoRama right?

[EUROPA]

Without going back to the 1/2 argument can somebody take a stab at why it is the least attended park out Disney's parks in Orlando? We know it's not a lack of advertising. It's no longer the new kid on the block. We won't argue the number of attractions. So if it's none of those things what is it? Just simple lack of appeal to the dumb masses that just don't get it's" magic"?

[Samirella]

Originally posted by HB2K
Apples to Oranges.


P.S. Don't count your mountains before they've hatched. Remember the WRE!




If you speak of Expedition Everest, it has already begun. WRE never got this far.

[JimC]

I believe it was Earth Day 4/22/98 that it opened. AK is on track - its only five years old and three of those years have been with a poor economy, terror threats and the Iraq war. At the same time Disney has been struggling with its ABC network purchase.

In those same five years it brought on line the Magic 7/98, the Wonder 8/99, Downtown Disney CA 1/01, California Adventure 2/01, Tokyo Disney Sea 9/01 (probably the best theme park ever built and originally conceived as the second California park), Walt Disney Studios Paris 3/02 and groundbreaking on DL- Hong Kong. Add to that AKL, Villas at Wilderness Lodge, Beach Club Villas and Pop Century resort construction. Now add the rides brought on line at the various parks in those same years. Admittedly the foreign parks are largely owned and funded by other investors and the rides have sponsors and DVD recovers its capital outlay in the sale of timeshare interests. But it just highlights that AK is not the only draw on talent and capital in the Disney empire.

I believe if you look at the history of all Disney parks you will find that they open with a limited selection of rides and many plans for future development. This holds true all the way back to DL. In fairness they are supposed to grow and develop.

Florida is having a problem attracting tourists and I would expect that Disney has had many scenario planning sessions to consider how they might respond under different conditions. Some of those would logically consider how they would cope with further business downturns. Those same scenarios have probably been discussed by their competition, and I bet by the State of Florida as well. I would be surprised if they had not coordinated some of their thinking in this regard.

[Peter Pirate]

Good post JimC and I think everyone will find that when the 2003 attendance numbers are released that AK will not be the Park with the biggest problem...This doesn't mean Disney doesn't have any issues but Jim is absolutely correct in stating that AK's history is fraught with uncertainty and the test of time is more than 5 years. This why I think Disney is slow in addressing the problems of a truly troubled park like DCA...But time is on their side...An Aladdin here, a ToT there and things slowly begin to change. 10 years from now, who knows...

[Another Voice]

""cold hard facts that the MAJORITY" of the public considers AK to be a half day park."

That's exactly what Disney's own internal marketing analysis show. The only thing keeping the park from 'Joe's Alligator Farm' level of attendance is parking hoping (and Mr. Pirates additional vist every trip).

Why do you think 'Everest' went to AK instead of 'Fire Mountain' being built in the Magic Kingdom? You invest in the park with the most troubles.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Peter Pirate
But time is on their side...An Aladdin here, a ToT there and things slowly begin to change. 10 years from now, who knows... I wonder if Disney is the only company that you extened this 10 year wait and see policy for?

[Peter Pirate]

Europa, heck no. Many companies have the ability to survive the test of time. Haliburton for instance, is a great investmnt (for the next six years anyway) but wasn't always so lucrative...It all has to do with circumstances.

Look at IBM, GM, GE...They were all down, down, down but their basc philosophy allowed them to withstand the test of time. Up down, up down...

M .Voice, I knew you couldn't resist. But surly anything I've said doesn't contradct the premise that money DOES need to be spent on the underperfoming did I? I never said AK wasn't an underachiever, I never said that they didn't get "spanked" with Dinorama but that doesn't make it worse than US for god's sake!

AK is great as it is for many and for the rest it is acres and acres of potential that WILL eventually compliment MK beatifully...

[DisneyKidds]

That's exactly what Disney's own internal marketing analysis show. The only thing keeping the park from 'Joe's Alligator Farm' level of attendance is parking hoping (and Mr. Pirates additional vist every trip).
We talk a lot around here, but I haven't seen anything that is cold or hard that confirms your statement.
Why do you think 'Everest' went to AK instead of 'Fire Mountain' being built in the Magic Kingdom? You invest in the park with the most troubles.
Can AK be as mirerable a failure as you claim given the fact that Epcot got Space before AK got Everest? Based on your statements and by your logic, shouldn't AK have gotten the new attraction nod over Epcot a few years ago?

Yes, AK has its problems, but I don't think it is as bleak as many like to paint it.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
[B]We talk a lot around here, but I haven't seen anything that is cold or hard that confirms your statement.

Can AK be as mirerable a failure as you claim given the fact that Epcot got Space before AK got Everest? Based on your statements and by your logic, shouldn't AK have gotten the new attraction nod over Epcot a few years ago?



How many years have they been building MS? 3-5 ? Didn't Asia and Dinorama (bad as it is ) go to AK before Epcot?

Anybody care to tackle the question I posed earlier?

[DisneyKidds]

Didn't Asia and Dinorama (bad as it is ) go to AK before Epcot?
The one thing I agree with HB on is that Asia should not really be viewed as an expansion or an addition put in place to boost miserable attendance. Furthermore, I don't think anyone believes that DinoRama was intended to be an E-ticket, save the park kind of attraction. So, even if M:S has been in development for 3 years, if AK was such the failure in need of saving why didn't it get Everest first?
Anybody care to tackle the question I posed earlier?
I assume you mean the reason for AK being the least attended park. The answer is simple, and you touched on it - it's the stupid guests ;) :crazy:.

I'm kidding, of course. We have talked about the AK concept before, and I believe it is just a concept that the public hasn't embraced that well. For a variety of reasons the expectations people have for a Disney park just aren't met. I believe that is why Disney put out that whole "nthazu" campaign, as the park suffered from an identity crisis. While there is enough there to occupy a guest for a day+, the mix of attractions leaves some guests looking for more....more attractions, more rides, more shows, more restaurants. People go looking for something specific, as opposed to looking at what is there. That isn't the guest's fault, as it is Disney's job to make sure that that doesn't happen - and they failed in that regard to a certain extent. Of course, failure is a relative term. It may be the ugly duckling of Disney's Orlando parks, but it still beats all the non-Disney Orlando competition.

[Mr D]

At least DAK is a whole lot better than DCA:p

I really like DAK more so than all the others, the CM's are the friendliest and seem to have better morale across the board.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
Furthermore, I don't think anyone believes that DinoRama was intended to be an E-ticket, save the park kind of attraction. So, even if M:S has been in development for 3 years, if AK was such the failure in need of saving why didn't it get Everest first?



Ahh..but you if go back in time. AK had been opened 1-2 years. So its safe to assume that AK just didn't have it's legs yet ( or some at Disney might argue) So they look at Epcot and AK as both needing something new as Test Track was not doing the trick. So the answers comes one for each. Only Epcot gets a sponsor and a big budget (even though it takes 3 plus years to build) Ak gets a great new Indoor roller coaster...only Eisner keeps slashing the budget because he is paying for it. So you end of with Dinorama. 2 years later attendance is still in the crapper.


I assume you mean the reason for AK being the least attended park. The answer is simple, and you touched on it - it's the stupid guests ;) :crazy:.



Is there any doubt in your mind that if AK opened with two more E-tickets and a C or D that we would even be having this discussion?

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Mr D


I really like DAK more so than all the others, the CM's are the friendliest and seem to have better morale across the board.

No doubt we even had a manger from AK take us back to our hotel in a Disney van the last time we were there really supper nice guy). He was very curious as to why we were leaving AK so early (before the buses started to pickup people and not just drop off) After we told him our reasons he admitted that it was a common complaint.

[DisneyKidds]

Is there any doubt in your mind that if AK opened with two more E-tickets and a C or D that we would even be having this discussion?
Yeah, there is doubt in my mind about that. Two more E-tickets would only keep those looking for rides in the park for another hour or two. So maybe you'd spend 4 or 5 hours instead of 3. If the C or D was similar to other C's or D's in the park, what makes you assume people would see it over the attractions they aren't seeing now? A couple of E-tickets won't do the job for AK unless the people who come to ride those E-tickets actually take notice of everything else the park has to offer. If they don't, the identity crisis would continue.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
Yeah, there is doubt in my mind about that. Two more E-tickets would only keep those looking for rides in the park for another hour or two. So maybe you'd spend 4 or 5 hours instead of 3. If the C or D was similar to other C's or D's in the park, what makes you assume people would see it over the attractions they aren't seeing now? A couple of E-tickets won't do the job for AK unless the people who come to ride those E-tickets actually take notice of everything else the park has to offer. If they don't, the identity crisis would continue.

2 or more E tickets and a C or D would put it on par with MGM and Epcot. Surly it would bump up AK attendance to at least those levels? Disney guest are not about rides they are about attractions. So by your account MGM should be facing the same problem as AK becuase by my count it only has 4 "rides" and one of those is the Great Movie ride.

[laceemouse]

Our family loves AK, but I feel that most of the public only cares about having bigger and bigger thrills. Sad, but true. Most people these days can not just walk around and enjoy looking at beautiful plants and animals.

[HB2K]

Most people these days can not just walk around and enjoy looking at beautiful plants and animals.
I'll post on the other messages when I have a little more time...but I just have to remind this poster of something....



IT'S NAHTAZU!

[DisneyKidds]

So by your account MGM should be facing the same problem as AK becuase by my count it only has 4 "rides" and one of those is the Great Movie ride.
Not really. WITHOUT 2 more E-Tickets and a C and D MGM and AK are already on par attraction wise (except for the nighttime show). I believe this is where the zoo/nahtazu thing comes into play.

At MGM, the non-ride attractions are pretty unique, at least as in the fact that you can't find them in most major cities. On the other hand, many people believe the AK non-ride attractions are no different than what they can find in their local zoo, and many people don't see them.

Look at it this way:

Rides: MGM has ToT/RnR/Star Tours/GMR/Catastrophe Canyon. AK has Dinosaur/Safari/Kali/PW/Triceratops. That's 5 and 5 and so far your logic holds.

Shows: MGM has Mermaid, Beauty, Indiana Jones, Muppets, Playhouse Disney. AK has Lion King, Tarzan, Flights of Wonder, Pocahontas, Tought to be a Bug. Again, that's 5 and 5 and your logic holds.

Here is problem number one. While the quantity and quality of most of the items listed so far is about the same (maybe MGM has the slight advantage), people are't seeing all the AK things listed. No way they can be if they just spend a half day as you can't do them all in 4 or 5 hours. So there is something different going on.

Now we look at the other attractions: MGM has Animation Tour, One Man, Millionaire, Honey I Shrunk playground, Sounds Dangerous (?), parade. AK has Conservation Station, Africa walking trail, Asia walking trail, Boneyard, Tree of Life, parade. While I may be forgetting a few things, it looks about even in this regard. MGM has Fantasmic as well. However, I submit that the MGM other stuff is probably seen by more people. Like I said, people can't find that stuff anywhere else. On the other hand, I think they view the AK stuff differently. Perhaps they think Conservation Station is like the petting zoo at their local zoo, the walkign trails the same thing. While the boneyard may be unique, most people don't take time to appreciate the Tree of Life. So the result is they bypass these things.

While I agree most Disney guests are more for attractions than rides, I think many of the AK attractions just don't grab them the same way - not for lack of quality, but moreso because the concept doesn't grab them. At least that is my take, but I could be wrong. However, objectively looking at the attraction count between MGM and Ak it isn't all that different. Furthermore, objectively assessing how much time it would take to do all things in both parks the result woould be the same. MGM gets bigger numbers even though on paper they are on par - how else would you explain it?

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
- how else would you explain it? ]
Like I've said I think it's whats not there more then what is currently there. As in if they add more quality attractions to the park.( on the lines of MS, EE or Beastly Kingdom) to the park we won't be talking about attendace problems at AK. AK will not benfit from more Animal walking tours or more Dionramas.

[HB2K]

but it still beats all the non-Disney Orlando competition.
The last attendance report I saw showed Universal Studios (the original park) had caught DAK.

[HB2K]

Look at IBM, GM, GE...They were all down, down, down but their basc philosophy allowed them to withstand the test of time. Up down, up down...
But did you buy the crap they produced during the down period or did you just wait for them to produce a quality product?

[HB2K]

If you speak of Expedition Everest, it has already begun. WRE never got this far.
I do speak of E:E. It is (from what I've read) no farther along than WRE was prior to it's cancellation.

And let me also say this....just as some are told not to judge a product until they've seen it (which is absurd), don't toot the praises of this ride until you see what the budget machete leave behind for you to "enjoy".

[HB2K]

AK is on track - its only five years old and three of those years have been with a poor economy, terror threats and the Iraq war. At the same time Disney has been struggling with its ABC network purchase.

Same old, same old blah blah blah...

Those aren't reasons....they're excuses.

But it just highlights that AK is not the only draw on talent and capital in the Disney empire.
This isn't a ma & pop operation. If this workload was so much that they must neglect some of their properties (including the one which has been the main profit center of the company) why did they let go of so many imagineers?

P.S. Aside from DisneySeas (which they didn't pay for) the rest of the theme park projects you describe are pathetic.

I believe if you look at the history of all Disney parks you will find that they open with a limited selection of rides and many plans for future development. This holds true all the way back to DL. In fairness they are supposed to grow and develop.

WRONG!

The advent of the partially complete but open to the public theme park started with MGM.

This why I think Disney is slow in addressing the problems of a truly troubled park like DCA
Or could it be they're waiting for the brand monkeys to finally wake up and smell the Tortillas?

Face it, the reason DCA has largely been ignored or is becoming CLONELAND WEST is because Disney has ZERO intrest in spending a dime in that park.

We talk a lot around here, but I haven't seen anything that is cold or hard that confirms your statement.
Sorry Kidds but I trust AV's insight. I don't think you'll see Disney send out a press release announcing people think their park is crummy. Also what rock have you been under....the half day / poor value concept has been reported in the media quite frequently...more than any other explaination...

Furthermore, I don't think anyone believes that DinoRama was intended to be an E-ticket, save the park kind of attraction.
So you agree with me that the park (save renaming rides & areas) has largely remained static?

[kathylovesdisneyworl]

Quote
IT'S NAHTAZU!

I haven't been to every zoo there is, but I have never seen a zoo like DAK. To compare just doesn't cut it in my book. Just because someone doesn't enjoy a day with nature doesn't make DAK bad.
Just not for all people.

[Laurajean1014]

AK is better than any time I've visited Busch Gardens! BG was good, but it never had AKL, the walking path with the gorillas (up close and personal), the authentic foods, a Bug's Life, Lion King Show (which I believe to be worth the admission in itself), Dinosaur, Kali Rapids and my kids would say "Dinoland."

It is forming into being a great park. My husband and I like the laid back feel of AK. It's very un-Disney like, but still being part of Disney. I am very happy that they are expanding and not closing this park!

Does anyone remember Epcot when it opened? Only a few exhibits and countries were ready in time!

Also, Universal for the first few years, was such a disappointment that people demanded their money back!

AK is only going to get better and better as it matures into a main attraction!

[HB2K]

Quote
IT'S NAHTAZU!

I haven't been to every zoo there is, but I have never seen a zoo like DAK. To compare just doesn't cut it in my book. Just because someone doesn't enjoy a day with nature doesn't make DAK bad.

Hey it's Disney's words....not mine. Disney is trying to convince the public that DAK is not a zoo (which most people seem to think it is) but a theme park.

Also if the general public doesn't enjoy a day with nature, it does make DAK's theme a bad business decision.

Does anyone remember Epcot when it opened? Only a few exhibits and countries were ready in time!
I can see DVC clenching his teeth after statements like this...

EPCOT was built as a FULL park. Did they expand and add things over time? Yes. But when it opened, the public embraced it (Unlike DAK) and I've never seen ANYONE comment that EPCOT was not complete upon opening.

AS I said previously, the concept of a half built but open to the public theme park started with MGM.

AK is only going to get better and better as it matures into a main attraction!
But how long is the general public, who currently doesn't think much of the park, going to wait?

Based on the average expansion timelines, once E:E is open, is it going to be another 5 years before we see a meaningful expansion at the park? Is a single E-Ticket (if it ends up that high) going to be enough to drive attendance for 5 more years all by itself?

[Laurajean1014]

AK - is not a disappointment. We have recommended it to many friends and I have not heard negatives on the park. The park is different, but not insignificant.

It's worth the admission. My son has gotten up close and personal with a giraffe on safari - first time ever at a park or a zoo!

I do not believe AK is complete, HB2k - nor are other parks. They are always updating, closing and adding attractions. That's what makes Disney survive.

HB2k - Your previous message was incorrect. Epcot did not open as a full and complete park. Ask any WDW employee and they will tell you that they received negative feedback because it was not complete. By the way, Walt is not DVC he's WD!

[space42]

HB2k - Your previous message was incorrect. Epcot did not open as a full and complete park. Ask any WDW employee and they will tell you that they received negative feedback because it was not complete.

Huh? Epcot was at least a two day park for my family when we first went in '82.

I made a post last year compairing EPCOT Center of '83 to AK of '99 (One year after opening). You can read it here.
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=220393

In summary, (not counting shows) the attraction count was 19 to 10 in EPCOT's favor. Heck, Future World alone had more attractions than all of AK. That is why many people consider AK a 1/2 park.

[Peter Pirate]

Nahtazu WAS Disney's PR move and is very apt, IMO. It is not looked at as a zoo by those who know but rather by those who merely read brochures or complaints on the Rumors Boards! I'd say few would call it a zoo after they've visited (not none, but few).
I can see DVC clenching his teeth after statements like this...
Yeah, so can I. But his take is always so one demensional that it would be predictable would it not?;)

EPCOT was built as a full day Park (in relative terms - Laurajean's stament is actually correct) but hey, there was little in competetion or comparison at that time. Do you think that maybe they've learned a little about building a theme park along they way? ... Well, that's a dumb question, because obviously you do not...

But I get tired of hearing about this "general public" that doesn't like AK...The numbers don't really tell that story unless you surround them with caveots, 'buts' or 'what ifs'...The Park OUTDREW IOA last year...Nuff said!

'E:E' will be a big boost to AK, also don't forget AK & IOA (and other parks) have diferent capacities...So what kind of increase in number is Disney really looking for? I'm sure it's mostly relative to number of multiple a hoppers that can be sold and not the one day admission to AK...

[d-r]

"AS I said previously, the concept of a half built but open to the public theme park started with MGM."

Actually I'm really not at all sure who started this concept, but as for the Disney company it started with Disneyland.

On opening day there was:

MAIN STREET
Santa Fe & Diseyland Railroad
Disneyland Street Railway (the horse-drawn trolleys on Main Street)
Disneyland Fire Department (that fire wagon in the fire house was a ride up and down Main Street)
Disneyland Penny Arcade and Shooting Gallery
Main Street Cinema

ADVENTURELAND
Explorer's Boat Ride (now the Jungle Cruise)

FRONTIERLAND
Log Fort and Block Houses (actually, the entry fascade to Frontierland)
Mark Twain River Boat
Painted Desert (Mule Pack, Stage Coach Ride - Conestoga Wagons not open yet)
Davy Crockett Museum / Arcade (then the Mercantile)

FANTASYLAND
Sleeping Beauty Castle (the walk-through wasn't open for two more years)
Peter Pan
Mr. Toad's Wild Ride
Snow White Ride-Thru
King Arthur Carousel
Mad Tea Party
Canal Boats of the World (now Storybook Land Canal Boats)

Tomorrowland
Autopia
Clock of the World (This was a large clock that marked the entrance to Tommorowland, counting down until 1986 Haley's Comit)
Circarama, U.S.A. (playing "A Tour of the West" - filmed from the top of a car (get it?) in full circle vision; I'm not sure if this was open at first or not, one source says yes, another says it was added later)
Monsanto Hall of Chemistry
Space Station X-1 (I never saw this, but it is described as a "satellite view of America as it would appear from space, that is if America was painted by some former animators and set designers.)

In fact, they didn't even start work on tomorrowland until 6 months before opening, and added some prefab buildings at opening time so it wouldn't look empty.

This is why people say that there were either 17 or 18 attractions when it opened - I mean, do you count the castle as an attraction when there wasn't a walk through? Or the frontierland gate? But I listed everything that I could find ever referred to as an attraction (no, I didn't list restaurants or stands) to be as inclusive as possible. Over the next year, Dumbo, a 20K leagues walk through (movie props promoting the filim out that year, the boats in tomorrrowland, keelboats, and casey jr. circus train opened, along with some minor attractions/additional sponserships (aluminium hall of fame, case del fritos, chicken of the sea pirate ship, maxwell house house of coffee, etc.).

Anyway, I think the point is pretty clear.

[Werner Weiss]

Here another list about Disneyland in 1955 (which includes attractions that weren't open on opening day, but which opened any time before the end of the year):

http://www.yesterland.com/dl1955.html

[DC7800]

Originally posted by Laurajean1014
Epcot did not open as a full and complete park. Ask any WDW employee and they will tell you that they received negative feedback because it was not complete.

If Epcot, in its first year, was not a complete park then Animal Kingdom is truly a lost cause. As space42 noted, there was no way to completely cover Epcot in one day back in the early 1980's. Most of the attractions we've enjoyed at Epcot for the past two decades were there from the beginning, or opened soon thereafter (Horizons, October 1983), followed by further additions in the next 4-5 years. I simply cannot imagine anyone complaining of a lack to do in Epcot Center. Lack of updating has somewhat "stagnated" the park in recent years, but the quantity of attractions is still there.

Animal Kingdom did open Asia, but has since remained relatively static (except for wonders such as Dinorama, hardly a positive step). Granted, a few more E-tickets (and the C-D's attractions to accompany them), perhaps a Beastly Kingdom, could have made a difference, but that didn't happen, nor do we have any reason to believe it ever will. Hence, many people can finish the place in a half-day. With but a single major attraction in the works for the next few years, it's hard to imagine attendance not continuing to deteriorate.

[blackshirt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Laurajean1014
[B]AK is better than any time I've visited Busch Gardens! BG was good, but it never had AKL, the walking path with the gorillas (up close and personal), the authentic foods, a Bug's Life, Lion King Show (which I believe to be worth the admission in itself), Dinosaur, Kali Rapids and my kids would say "Dinoland."

If you believe that the Lion King Show is worth the price of admission, more power to you. Pray tell, how much was the original Lion King movie "worth" to you? Did you refinance your house and sell all of your personal belongings to buy tickets?
If you want to observe the difference in how Universal and Disney treat their quests in terms of investment in attractions, you need only compare Kali Rapids with Popeye at IOA. I don't know the actual amount spent on each attraction or if that info is even available. But based on the resulting attractions, I would guess Popeye cost much much more. Cost is not everything, but in this case there is absolutely no comparision. Kali Rapids- board the raft, get preached to about the enviroment(What a uplifting message!), and hey, wait, that was it??? Popeye- twice as long, just when you think its over, another portion begins.

[DisneyKidds]

there was no way to completely cover Epcot in one day back in the early 1980's............I simply cannot imagine anyone complaining of a lack to do in Epcot Center. Granted, Epcot had a larger attraction count than AK when it first opened. However, all this labelling as half-day, full-day, two-day............parks is extremely subjective. Replace Epcot and the early 80's with AK and the early 90's and I would make the very same statement about AK. Unfortunately, people's personal tastes apparently don't leave the majority of Disney guests feeling the way I do. However, that doesn't change the fact that, when looked at objectively, it would take more than a full day to see/do everything in the AK. The problem is that there appear to be lots of people who don't want to see/do everything. That is why, contrary to Europa, I believe there is as much problem with what is there as there is with what is not there. The place where I can see attraction count being a factor is that AK needs to rely on almost all of it's attractions to be a full day park. At MK you could do half of all available attractions and make a full day of it, at Epcot 3/4 would make a full day. That is where some new attractions would help AK I suppose. Again, I think AK and the Studios are on par as the Studios has to rely on almost all attractions to make it a full day. On the subjective judgement side, the Studios is the half-day park for the Kidds clan.

[Planogirl]

I can't see how to spend a full day at Animal Kingdom. We arrive at opening and hit the big rides, then we eat, walk the wonderful trails and hang around until the parade. Then we're done and we haven't particularly rushed. But it's true that this is definitely subjective and based on personal preferences. We don't bother with Kali since it's such a short ride and see nothing in Camp Minnie/Mickey except for Festival of the Lion King.

I think that it would be easier to see AK as a whole park if Disney added a few full-service restaurants. I wonder why they never have?

[HB2K]

AK - is not a disappointment. We have recommended it to many friends and I have not heard negatives on the park. The park is different, but not insignificant.
Laurajean-

I think this is where we end our discussion.

DAK has been an attendance disappointment since it's second year of operation. It's hardly been in dispute.

If your family, and those who you reccomend it to, find it to be worth while, that's great. The problem is you are in the minority.

Enjoy the park!

Nahtazu WAS Disney's PR move and is very apt, IMO. It is not looked at as a zoo by those who know but rather by those who merely read brochures or complaints on the Rumors Boards! I'd say few would call it a zoo after they've visited (not none, but few).
Pirate-

I think I'm teetering on the same ledge with you that I was just on with Laura.

The people Disney's PR campaign was aimed at are the important people. Not you or I....the General Public determines what is a success and a failure.

You're stance is one of personal opinion. If you don't feel DAK is a zoo, that's great.

But there are THOUSAND, if not MILLIONS which apparently think DAK is_a_zoo if Disney feels compelled to spend MILLIONS trying to tell them they are wrong (which is stupid when you think about it).

EPCOT was built as a full day Park (in relative terms - Laurajean's stament is actually correct) but hey, there was little in competetion or comparison at that time. Do you think that maybe they've learned a little about building a theme park along they way? ... Well, that's a dumb question, because obviously you do not...

Honestly?

I think Disney is trying to change what the public expects from them. I_think Ei$ner wishes EPCOT was never built, because people would be OK with the experinces DAK (and to a lesser extent MGM) offer to them.

People have been trained to expect a certain level of park from the Walt Disney company. They were used to new parks opening up which took multiple days to explore (not hunt for new, little hidden things to find mind you).

Then Ei$ner took over and determined to build smaller and expand as needed. The problem is EPCOT was built and had already trained WDW's customer base that when Disney builds a theme park, you better be ready to spend MULTIPLE days there in order to see all there is to see.

Now when people venture into DAK, DCA, and to a lesser extent MGM they feel like they've been cheated....since they're looking for one thing and Disney is selling them another.

So in closing...I didn't set the standard for them to live up to....but I do hold them to it. Apparently I'm not alone.

D-R I'm not even going to get into the attraction counting business. I stand by my statement of the half built but open for business park started with MGM.

Did all parks leave room for expansion? Yes. But until MGM was open, there was NEVER a whisper of being able to do a Disney park within the same day. Multiple days (or single day marathons) were required to cover Magic Kingdom and/or EPCOT.

Kidds-

I think I agree with some of your points. Part of what is wrong with DAK is so much of what_is_there is uninteresting to the general public that once you start skipping things, the time needed for the park starts to whittle away....thus the half a day tag.

You would probably need ALL day to see EVERY single thing in the park....but why should I be happy if in order to get the value I demand I have to experince things I have no interest in?

[Peter Pirate]

You're stance is one of personal opinion....
Yes and no. I always use my personal opinion to specifically counteract the personal opinions of those on the reverse side. If people quit using personal opinion as facts against us you'll see the IMO tag less frequently in my posts...For exampleBut there are THOUSANDS if not MILLIONS of people which apparantely think DAK_is_a_zoo.
The proof is the NAHTAZU campaign? That seems shortsighted. DAK needed identity, to be sure and since there were many detractors squaking about "the zoo" image, it made perfect sense (IMO) to use such a campaign to dispel such thoughts. I thought the campaign was playful & entertaining. I have NEVER came across anyone who thouht DAK was a zoo. NOT ONCE. Now maybe living in Floida makes people more aware of WDW, but I don't think so (we can't even seem to get voting down)...

As for the new parks. I certainly have never felt cheated at DAK. Now I know this is personal and I love the animal theme, but to me it totally seems worth the effort. The 'Tree Of Life' is an absolute marvel all by itself. Yes, they made some BIG misakes, the shortness of Kali for one (GRR at DCA is much, much better), introducing DinoRama as an 'E' ticket area for two (it should have been one of those 'gimmees' for the kids - which it will eventully become anyway) and three the skinny walkways...But it is simply gratuitous to continue to 'call' AK on lack of things to do when in fact it (AK) is finding its fit quite nicely. It is obviously no longer planned to be an evening park, with no sit-downs (thanks PG) but still MK is hardly an evening park anymore either...This is a WDW problem, not an AK problem and should be looked at seperately. AK COULD open until 9 if Disney chose to do it but their master plan (right or wrong) obviously does not call for this. At this juncture let me say that I do have big issues with the current trend toward hours at WDW. They are making it harder for my famly to do what we do best, as well.

Lastly DCA. This Park is not a total waste to anyone who buys an AP or a hopper. We visited DL again this summer and our time breakdown was 2.5 days at DL and 1.5 at DCA and we enjoyed 90% of it. My point being that while DCA is a tremendous failure in the context of what Disney expected (making DL a real Destination Resort) and what fans may have expected (TDS). IT still has enough good offerings to make it a great add on to DL...As long as you're not paying the individal day price. This is bad for Disney but not really bad for the guest...In the long run, 'ToT' will open giving them another quality attraction to go along with 'Aladdin', 'Soarin', 'GRR', 'Screamin'', 'The Animation Building', 'Flicks Fun Fair' and 'The Main Street Electrical Parade'. That's 8 quality attractions, does that really sound like something that can't be built upon? Plus if you count 'The Muppets' and 'It's Tough To Be a Bug', and I guess you should, that makes 10 great attactions!

In the end though AK can't be dismissed in one sentence as incomplete or shortsighted while in the next sentence IOA is touted as a complete & wonderful Park as the numbers simply do not bear this out...

[d-r]

Werner - thanks for posting the link - and actually for all the information on your web site, I really love your site and I'm not sure if I ever told you. You may notice that in the last paragraph of my post I noted things that opened over the course of the year, and when I look at the list you have it seems like it pretty much jibes with it. Remember the original quote was "open to the public."



D-R I'm not even going to get into the attraction counting business. I stand by my statement of the half built but open for business park started with MGM.


You can believe what you want to believe, but that doesn't make it so.

I listed out the attractions, rather than just citing a number, so that people could think about what a day would have been like in disneyland when it opened. I wasn't there in 1955, but I can imagine what it was like. I think DAK as it opened had more to do than disneyland as it opened.

For that matter, the wdw mk was opened aimed more at an older demopgraphic of retirees than at families on vacation; there were no mountains, no pirates, no people mover or starjets, no tom sawyer island. Of course no toon fair, etc.

DK makes a good point in that this sort of thing is subjective. Epcot opened without horizons, wonders of life, living seas, imagination, norway or morroco. To some people in the 80s that would have been more than a one day park. To me (and my friends) in the 80s, as teenagers, that was a NO day park!

We've probably been to the DAK 10 times, and for us, we rarely spend more than 3/4 of a day there, but I imagine that someone visiting for the first time would find much more that was fresh and interesting to spend some time with. It is a complex thing to talk about DAK attendance as a disappointment - the dissapointment was that it cannibalized attendance from other parks, rather than bringing in new folks or causing folks to add days. Will this change as the parks matures? Well, if you think about it systemically, that depends on the other parks as well. We rarely spend more than 1/2 day at the studios or epcot at a given time either.


DAK has been an attendance disappointment since it's second year of operation.

The matrix:frontloaded has been an attendance disappointment since its second week of showing, but apparently some people think it is a decent movie. Different strokes, right?

[princesstommi]

I just have a question (and it could be totally random, and not worth talking about so feel free to ignore it)...

Does the fact that DAK only has the one *restaurant* make it more of a half-day park than the Studios? (I know about the RFC thing, and that DAK can't have any other sit-down restaurants, I just don't think it's such a god idea)

When we went to the Studios, we planned out a whole day, including lunch at Prime Time and dinner at the Brown Derby, with Fantasmic of course.

Our DAK day, we went, saw the stuff we wanted to see, and left to go to DTD. I hate the Rainforest Cafe, and had no desire to even think about eating there.

Our plans for the parks usually include lunch and/or dinner plans somewhere fun in whatever park we are at. Actually, our last trip revolved really completely around food, and places we wanted to try.

I just wonder if that might have anything to do with the *half day* idea/perception/attitude about DAK.

[raidermatt]

While in WDW in May, I saw a "Nahtazu" commercial on one of the local TV channels (not the Resort channels), so I guess its still a concern for Disney.

One more random comment.... If a park had 500 attractions, and not enough people found more than 2 or 3 of those attractions to be "compelling", they would still call it a half-day park. AK has far less than 500 attractions, and lacks more than a few "compelling" attractions.

Arguing semantics doesn't change the problem.

That is all.

[Peter Pirate]

Semantics are not nearly as big of problem as misrepresentation is around here...

...Or the fact that a few people are making a mountain sized crises out of a mole hill sized problem..Please keep in mind that despite dropping attendance AK was still the number 5 drawing Park in America last year. Since everyone thinks it should be doing so much better which of the four parks ahead of it should it easily surpass?

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by thedscoop


I've talked to plenty of people at WDW about plenty of things. None of them are worried about long term problems for AK as opposed to the DCA fiasco. Frankly, the future of AK looks much brighter than IOA because IOA was built as a "Here's the Whole Kit and Kaboodle" type of "full" park with very little room for long term growth and change. In other words, if ya ain't drawn to IOA now, IOA doesn't have alot it can do about it later.



I never heard this before. From what I understand IOA has plenty of room to add new attractions. 2 Or more in each land.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by thedscoop
Check out the sat images and you'll see that IOA is severely hindered by I-4, USF, and the hotels/citywalk. The only direction it could grow would be the area where Universal is already rumored to have plans for.

I really don't care to look at a satellite image of IOA. For one I'm not a theme park designer nor to I have the skill to ***** what property belongs to who. I do remember this thread coming up before on the USF board and from several of the employees that work there all said the same thing that IOA has plenty of room for expansion. (I'm not talking about hotdog vendors either) So unless you heard that IOA is bounded to the current list of attractions by property issues from someone pretty high up at IOA, I would not put much faith in it.

I know that its the popular thing to do around here ....as soon as a question about Disney comes up they like to point to a worse problem at Universal that they heard about from one of their friends at Disney...we'll lets just consider what company that person really works for.

[raidermatt]

Pete, you know I love ya', but you know as well as I do that AK's attendance is pumped up by the fact that is a part of WDW, and is force fed via the hopper policy. Really, all the parks get a bump from this, but as the weakest of the four, AK gets the biggest bump.

Make it a standalone park and I absolutely guarantee it doesn't remain #5.

Further, the fact that the goal of the park is not to be of the same quality and scope of other WDW parks is a huge problem in and of itself. That entire philosophy IS a mountain-sized problem, even if you and I might like AK itself.

[raidermatt]

Scoop, my last post was written before yours...

I completely agree that AK has tremendous potential. I'm sure it has more room for expansion than IoA. In fact, WDW as a whole still has more room for expansion than anyone (thanks to the dead guy).

But 2 points... (1) Potential does not mean results. AK had tremendous potential before a shovel hit the ground, as did DL's 2nd gate. Both still have potential. But if the execution is not there, as it hasn't been (to varying degrees), problems will persist. (2) It doesn't mean much to me if AK has more potential than IoA, or even if future execution is superior. IoA, and other theme parks for that matter, are not WDW's main competition. Disney needs to decide what they want to provide and then just do it. Not look at the guys down the street and ask "are we better than them?".

[pheneix]

Well, if I were EUROPA I'd start with this:

>>>I've talked to plenty of people at WDW about plenty of things. None of them are worried about long term problems for AK as opposed to the DCA fiasco. Frankly, the future of AK looks much brighter than IOA because IOA was built as a "Here's the Whole Kit and Kaboodle" type of "full" park with very little room for long term growth and change. In other words, if ya ain't drawn to IOA now, IOA doesn't have alot it can do about it later.<<<

Oh yeah, EUROPA, I agree with you 100%, but I have to give DScoop 10 bonus points because that was one of the more elequent excuses I've seen made for AK's failure creativewise.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by thedscoop
Such an incredibly witty response...

If this is so popular, I'd be thrilled if you could go back and find all these threads and posts where this has happened.

C'mon man. Step up to the plate and back up this statement with some specifics.



Europa:

You ask me a question, I try and give the best answer I have, then you fall back on this:[QUOTE]I know that its the popular thing to do around here ....as soon as a question about Disney comes up they like to point to a worse problem at Universal...[QUOTE] That's such a Clinton-esque response... Guess what buddy-boy...not everything posted which outlines a potential Universal problem is a Disney cop-out.

You have an agenda. Slam everything Disney regardless of whatever it is. That's a sad, sad agenda.


I'll answer both your post. How about you give me a printed source for you comments first. I'll will do a search for the threads that I was speaking of.

"Buddy-boy" - you better check youself the next time you speak to me on this forum. I'm neither your buddy or a boy. So please curb your use of these types of terms.

Sorry to spoil your pigeonholing of me I do not slam everything Disney. Example : While I've not experinced MS I heard its a great attraction and I can't wait to ride it. Yea! Disney. I'm also very hopful that Pirates and the HM moive will be great hits for Disney and I can't wait for them to come out. I was overjoyed when they went back to EE also. So there are three small example where I'm postive for Disney.

Maybe not everything posted about Universal's problem is a cop-out but you were certainly trying to use that as one.
Seems strange that the AK post got turned around and is now bashing IOA though uh?

[Planogirl]

I have to agree that many of the threads turn into Universal bashing threads at some point and I don't understand why. Universal is not responsible for Disney mistakes, only Disney is. And I don't bash Disney continously even though I'm in Car No. 3. I enjoy Disney and I enjoy Universal and have an easy time keeping them separated.

Now if you want to bash Six Flags... ;) Actually, even these parks seem to have their fans as hard as it is to imagine.

[Minniespal]

I hope that its not true ~ Ak is one of my favourite parks.

[DC7800]

Originally posted by thedscoop
I predict that, within 5 to 8 years, AK will regularly be the third most attended park in the United States while Islands of Adventure will see only very limited growth because of its physical limitations.

For Animal Kingdom to rise in the attendance rankings at least two other parks must fall relative to AK. I assume Disneyland Park and the Magic Kingdom can at least hold their own. So, you are also predicting Epcot and the Studios are not only going to see attendance shrink, but that it will drop so much as to fall below an already attrendance-depressed Animal Kingdom? Gee, how the mighty (will) have fallen...

This isn't so much an endorsement of AK than it is a critcism of Epcot and the Studios. Even if the change in rankings were solely the result of growth in AK, it would mean the other parks aren't growing (at best, under such a scenario, they would probably be flat as far as attendance goes).

[DisneyKidds]

So, you are also predicting Epcot and the Studios are not only going to see attendance shrink, but that it will drop so much as to fall below an already attrendance-depressed Animal Kingdom? Gee, how the mighty (will) have fallen...
You seem to be missing the big picture that Pirate tried to emphasize. As "attendance-depressed" (if we can legitimately call it that) as the AK may be, it is still the 5th most attended theme park by the AB analysis. Viewed in that perspective it is hard to call the park a failure. So it is the least attended of the Disney parks, so what - that is tough competition.

As for AK moving up the ranks, that would be the result of both the AK picking up new guests and one of the other Disney parks giving way to the AK. I could easily see AK surpassing the Studios in popularity and attendance. You assume that that would mean that the Studios would have to sink to some horrific low, but I don't agree.

[blackshirt]

I think the attendence numbers can only be really understood when put into the proper context. These assumptions are based on two givings which I assume are correct. Please correct me if they are not. 1) When a guest visits WDW, and visits multiple parks in the same day, only the first park visited counts in the overall attendence. and 2) When a local visitor visits Epcot for dinner or the laser show, Or the MK for fireworks, this counts as a visit.
If these two assumptions are correct, and I believe they are, then Universal will NEVER come close to official attendence at WDW. The reasons for this are simple enough.
1) AK will be the first park visited on the vast majority of same day multiple park visits. The reasons are numerous, it often opens first, and most importantly, it closes BEFORE dinner, often in the afternoon(many consider 5pm late afternoon, some say early evening, but thats another debate.
2) Most people know that Universal offers cheap annual passes to EVERYONE. Disney, however, offers discounted AP's only to Florida residents. I debate the value of AP's for my family based upon how many times we will visit. For people in Orlando, Tampa, anywhere within an hour and a half of WDW, an AP should be a no brainer(if you enjoy Disney). The point I am making rather badly is that huge amounts of locals visit both Universal and Disney. Dinner at Epcot would count as a visit to a Disney park. A visit to the Hard Rock Cafe at Citywalk DOES NOT count as a visit to a Universal park.
3) IMO, as I have only common sense to back it up, is that large amounts of locals visit Disney for the late parade and fireworks, the laser show at Epcot, and Fantasmic. Universal does not chose to compete with these attractions( I think they should) How many of Disney's attendence visits are locals going to see a nighttime show? These people show up, pay nothing in parking, probably buy next to nothing, enjoy themselves greatly, and vow to return in a month to watch a different show. These ALL count as "visits" to the respective parks but they don't really help Disney financially. In fact, large hoards of locals invading WDW, spending nothing, puts a strain on the infrastructue.
Anyway, my point is that attendence figures are just numbers. Until we have access to the raw data of attendence trends by both companies, the rankings are meaningless.( With the exception that the MK is far and away the most popular park in Florida) There is simply no way for us to track attendence. A family of 4 from Toledo who spend a day at IOA is NOT equal to a family of 4 from Kissimmee who go once a month to watch a nighttime show at Epcot, MK, or MGM.

PS, IMO, this is why nighttime events are being curtailed at MK. Doesn't hurt locals, but it sure hurts the resort customer who is coming up with the cash.

[raidermatt]

You know, I did seriously consider the merits of the Pirate's oft-made point about AK outdrawing IoA, and being the 5th most attended park, and therefore can't be much of a failure.

But then I asked myself, what if everything remained the same about the parks, with the exception of switching the locations, and the decorations. So IoA was in WDW and used Disney characters, while AK was at Universal, and didn't have the Disney characters.

Now, I'm not a Universal "fan" by any stretch of the imagination. But is anybody actually suggesting that AK would still be the 5th most attended park in the country in this scenario?

[EUROPA]

I will retract the word "popular" as without the search function I have no way to "prove" just how poplar the tactic is. I doubt though however many post I could come up with would be enough to satisfy your challenge anyway.



I do point to these threads that I found in very short time as to how the tactic is used. Once again though you have succeeded in doing just what you sat out to do...take heat off of Disney by pushing it off on another entity. As to the other thread where I "shrunk" away please post a link to it and I will post a response. I must have missed the comments directed at me. However please do not bother responding with more challenges or questions as I have no intent in responding to anymore of your post. Yes I'm sure you will have a witty response but never the less I mean it.

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=398891

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=382114

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=375782

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=360143&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=355825

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=343974

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=344981&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

[pheneix]

>>>However, if you're Universal, you have to be fairly concerned that, after being open 5 years now, IOA still hasn't even overtaken its own less "full" sister park.<<<

Just trust me on this, it has overtaken Universal Studios (although admittedly because local attendance never supports USF to the extent of IOA). Heck, IOA has been running longer hours than the Studios for almost a year now.

>>>For the life of me, I still can't figure out why IOA hasn't overcome USF and AK and closed more ground on the other parks.<<<

Because IOA's public awareness has relied on word of mouth until the spring of this year (and for the most part I would classify a Travel Channel special into the word of mouth catagory because of the way the shows are formatted to be from the visitor's POV). Think about it, has there *ever* been a commerical where you see Spiderman hopping from rooftop to rooftop with a scoop full of visitors flying through the air with him? Nope. Has there ever been a commerical with the Hulk tear-assing through a "city" that then cuts to a shot of 32 screaming passengers being blasted out of a gamma tube? Nope. How about two dragons dueling it out in the skies, flying through the air setting forests and towns ablaze, then they start to fly at each head on and morph into roller coasters meeting at the loops? Nope. Other than the drug fantasy commericals and Travel channel specials it took them THREE YEARS to finally come up with a kickass commercial about the resort. It probably wasn't a coincidence that advance bookings at their resorts set all time records the day that the "fairytales and pixiedust" came out.

[PKS44]

The attendance at the nonAK WDW parks has suffered since AK opened...AK has also fallen every year it has been open...This year may grow (it has two early entry days to boost its take of those Park Hopper users who will go the first open park--previously it was not in the EE cycle)...AK is a failure because the longer it has been open the fewer people want to go..but it is a failure especially because unlike other parks it has not generated more profit for the company the way it was supposed to...it has not achieved its business goal...In business not achieving your goal is called failure...for Disney this park has not performed..why are they discounting meals at AK and no other park??? Because they have to to get people to eat there. Discounting at Disney is a sure sign of struggle...AK may someday be a great park...MGM is only just beginning to get there...meanwhile Disney Seas is booked as far as the eye can see and is a huge financial and artisitic success....

[d-r]

How do you book disney seas? I just walked up and bought a ticket :)

[HB2K]

The person who brought IOA into this thread is Peter. I've stirred a little bit on this thread, but my point was not a Disney Vs Universal, which is on the right path to success (that's another debate all together).

My point is this.

No matter how much you or I like (or dislike) Disney's Animal Kingdom, the fact remains that it lags behind it's sister parks in attendance, it's attendance numbers continue to fall behind year over year, and it's operator feels compelled to tell the public that the park is not what they percieve it to be (NAHTAZU). The general "rumored" guest complaint is there isn't enough to do.

Matt made some wonderfull points about potential vs application. WDW in general has TONS of potential, but sadly I doubt it will be realized with the current management in place . Heck they barely send any capital for the existing infastructure....never mind tapping that potential.

Personally I think Disney's problem is one of perception. The general public goes to Magic Kingdom and EPCOT, both parks which were built by a different mindset....and then expects, rightfully so, that Disney's newer parks meet or exceed their experinces from the other two....which they sadly do not.

I do not see Disney's Animal Kingdom turning any corner perception wise for this reason...

Disney is trying (somewhat desperatly) to make people give DAK another try with the nahtazu campaign. But the problem is nothing has changed from when the general public first came to that conclusion. In other words, it's still a zoo.

If you're banking on E:E turning your park around, shouldn't you time your "give us another chance" message around it's opening?

You change the subject. You cop-out.
Scoop-

Go back and read the posts here....the only subject that got changed was Peter with this statement:

But I get tired of hearing about this "general public" that doesn't like AK...The numbers don't really tell that story unless you surround them with caveots, 'buts' or 'what ifs'...The Park OUTDREW IOA last year...Nuff said!

'E:E' will be a big boost to AK, also don't forget AK & IOA (and other parks) have diferent capacities...So what kind of increase in number is Disney really looking for? I'm sure it's mostly relative to number of multiple a hoppers that can be sold and not the one day admission to AK...

Peter changed this subject and brought IOA into this discussion, which it does not belong.

[crusader]

HB2K -

I'll concede that by its' very name, to the unsuspecting public AK would be perceived as "Zoo-like". But no-one actually believes Disney simply built a zoo and added it to its" park. They may believe it is more in line with a safari, which is the sense a visitor gets. So the visuals are working and the old zoo premise is practically a non-issue.

If you look at the vacation planning video alone, which is free and widely distributed you will see an excellent advertising campaign done for this park. It looks very enticing. Also, you cannot ignore the fact that this park has excellent shows which are gaining a terrific word of mouth promotion.

What hurt this park was the expectation that it would be as great as the other three and it really felt like a letdown. Everybody wanted to know what it was like before attending to see if it was worth a special trip and the word on the street was "Don't waste your time". That is the stigma they have been trying to shake for 5 years.

Right now, you are seeing a change. It's not just with E:E. It is because people have since attended WDW and made their own determinations about this park. One thing is certain - the shows carried it. The walkthrough animal attractions are pretty cool but should be extras. The park needs more rides. I am one of those who sees the potential and agree the coaster is big. I am optimistically holding out on this one but have to admit it will be a tremendous success if they handle it properly.

Now if they could just work on the design to promote better flow - we'd be in business.

[Peter Pirate]

I readily admit that I used the acronym "USF" in my very first post on this thread when relating a trend that I believed to be true based on a personal observation of certain parks...Those being DAK, US & IOA...It was hardly the start of this recent blather however...I think you would have to look at the following HBK statement for thatBut the cold hard facts show that the MAJORITY of guests perceive DAK to be a bad value compared to other theme park options.
I guess I wasn't supposed to infer IOA, huh? If thats the case, then yeah, I hijacked the thread...

Once again I repeat that if AK is a half day park at #5 in national attendance then those following on the list can not be used as continual proof as to what is wrong with the Disney model.

Scoop has magnifciently pointed out how bright the future is for Disney parks - attraction wise (from an optimists standpoint anyway). Not there is not still some clinks in the armour...But I don't believe future attractions or specifically AK is one of them. I think Disney has turned some sort of corner, maybe it's Rasulo, maybe it's happestance, but attractions like M:S, Philhar, E:E & even the Stunt Show indicate a significant change in Company attitude, IMO.

[HB2K]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But the cold hard facts show that the MAJORITY of guests perceive DAK to be a bad value compared to other theme park options.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I guess I wasn't supposed to infer IOA, huh? If thats the case, then yeah, I hijacked the thread...


You know what?

I didn't mean to include NON disney parks in that statement, but to me it's irrelevant.

DAK has the lowest attendance of ANY of the 4 Florida Disney parks. There has to be a reason for that. People are going elsewhere. If you eliminate the Park Hopping, let's see how DAK falls against US, IOA, Seaworld, Bush Gardens, heck even against Gatorland.

Disney's Animal Kingdom is a parasite to the rest of the WDW parks. Without the WDW parks, who knows where DAK would fall on that list of attended theme parks.

Will there come a day when DAK will stop leeching off of the other parks and fly on it's own?

Maybe.

Will that day be anytime in the next 3-5 years (or an 8 to 10 year window from the park's opening)?

While debatable, it's doubtfull. One attraction will not turn this tide. Disney has already sacrificed it's good will by releasing a shell of a park, full of attractions which appeal only to a niche audience. It then further sold out it's good will by trying to convince the public to give the park a second chance.

Whatever you want to say about the Nahtazu campaign, Disney tried to convince the public that their first impression was wrong, or that things in the park have changed.

Any people who took the message to heart and went back have found very little has changed since their first impression, and will be DOUBLEY hard to convince that a third chance should be given when E:E opens.

Once again I repeat that if AK is a half day park at #5 in national attendance then those following on the list can not be used as continual proof as to what is wrong with the Disney model.

While DAK may be reporting higher attendance numbers than parks 6 through whatever there is a reason (see the parasite comment above).

Another note: I can use parks 1-4 as proof to show park 5 is what is wrong with Disney now.

Parks were built a certain way in the 70's & 80's. In the 90's Disney decided to change they way they built. The location of the older parks vs the younger ones in attendance records should tell the story succinctly of what is wrong with Disney.

[baloo722]

the 1st time i went to AK was april of 200. HATED IT! the only worthwhile thing (in my mind) was the safari. Been ther in Aug 200, jujy 2002, june 2003, & can't wait to go back next month. Every time i go, I find something that I overlooked before. is it the magic kingdom (my fav park) no. but i feel that it is steadily improving...either that or i am giving it more of a chance each time, & it wasn't that bad from the start.

[d-r]

"maybe it's Rasulo"

An honest question - what has Rasulo done? I mean, mission:space and philharmagic and disneyland's pooh and tower of terror were before him. I think the fixes on disneyland tom sawyer island, castle, carousel were started before him, right? Bug's land before him. But tomorrowland is a waste land. He let that pirates premiere fiasco happen. So is he the one who approved everest? Because that was obviously in the hopper before him. All I can think of is a wink and a smile about the paris car stunt show. Is that it? Was he responsible for the dca Aladdin show, or was that in the hopper?

[d-r]

OK, I buy that.

DR

[DC7800]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
As "attendance-depressed" (if we can legitimately call it that) as the AK may be, it is still the 5th most attended theme park by the AB analysis. Viewed in that perspective it is hard to call the park a failure.

Actually, I agree, at least to an extent. With six Disney parks in the U.S., one of them has to be number five - and a certain California park has to come in even lower on the list. However, the rankings seem less important than the actual attendance, which has declined steadily (along with the rest of WDW) over the past few years. With so few exciting new attractions to be found in the other three parks, one might have expected the newest park on property to do better. But, it hasn't. Consider also that declining attendance over at Epcot is also widely described as a real problem, yet it lands at number three in the rankings. Animal Kingdom is far from the failure that DCA has become, but it has dramatically failed to live up to expectations, and (worse still) the park falls very far short of reaching it's true potential.

My real concerns center more around Animal Kingdom's future. A single new E-ticket attraction (still a couple years away) is just not going to solve the park's underlying problems (a percieved lack of sufficient major attractions to warrant a day's visit). Whatever anyone's personal opinion of the place, much more than E:E is going to be required before the masses will think of AK as worthy of a (full) day's vacation. Simply put, AK needs more to do (it also needs the right mix of attractions, but that's another thread). Since - as of this point - little or nothing besides E:E appears to be coming to AK anytime soon, I can't help but wonder exactly where the additional crowds are going to come from to even keep AK ahead of the IOA competition up the street, let alone to actually grow the attendance. Indeed, the quantity of coming attractions to all WDW parks isn't exactly overwhelming. Hence, my expectation that other parks would have to decline (relative to AK) in order for AK to gain ground. True, AK could pass the other parks simply by growing faster than an also expanding MK, Epcot, and Studios - I just don't see how under current circumstances (management).

[d-r]

I don't know if they will and I'm not saying they are, but if it was me I wouldn't tell you if I was planning to build something else, I would want some people to come see EE, I wouldn't want them to say I'll just wait a couple of years and then I can this EE and the new thing they are going to make.

[crusader]

There is absolutely no doubt that E:E is going to drive the attendance figures up for this park. Once they have the guests though, they will need to deal with several other issues -
such as:

The poor design which has the propensity to bottleneck; The park operating hours which may need to be extended; and the lack of comfortable eating establishments.

From what I've heard, one of the good things about AK is that it has a quieting effect on the guest due to its' smaller crowds. I'm not sure how they will prevent it from generating a busy feel like the Magic Kingdom once guests start piling in to experience the new mountain coaster.

[Peter Pirate]

As to the crowds...The generally accepted rumor is tha Asia will be opened to the other side, through Dinoland, to allow another complete circle (no dead end). I think it will still be a crowded feel though...

[blackshirt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DC7800
[B] Consider also that declining attendance over at Epcot is also widely described as a real problem, yet it lands at number three in the rankings. Animal Kingdom is far from the failure that DCA has become, but it has dramatically failed to live up to expectations, and (worse still) the park falls very far short of reaching it's true potential.

Epcots attendance is a real problem. I enjoy epcot immensely but my daughter(11) only really enjoys- eh - Test Track- one that I consider mediocre. Epcots attendance numbers are padded by the fact that large numbers of locals come nightly to eat dinner and watch the night time show. Take away the show and Disney might as well close the park. Why are the nighttime shows at MK the only ones to be cut? Because customers will show up at MK regardless of the nighttime entertainment.
Animal Kingdom is a complete and total failure from Disney's perspective. It has merely cannibalized the other parks attendance. I agree that AK has by far the most potential of any park. But, even if they started today to massively renovate it, it would take how long to realize? 3 years? And, Disney management has many better things to do. Manage ABC and let the parks fall as they may. Anyway, who really believes that current management will be around in 3 years?

[Laurajean1014]

Do you think the past few years attendance drop is because of: lack of attractions? Couldn't it be because of the higher rate of unemployment? The downfall of corporate america and wall street?

I think Disney is a strong American company, however, I would not credit them with this responsibility that lightly.

Have you surfed the internet or stores lately? Everything in the stores is either on sale or being sold at very low prices. The economy is bad and people do not spend extra money at Disney, when they have no extra money to spend!!!!!

Disney is feeling the crunch big time. And so are the parks, that's why they are moving up all these projects; to get people interested in coming to the parks.

As Wayne Gretzsky once said "It's not where to puck is, but rather where it's going."

[jlambrig]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by blackshirt
Animal Kingdom is a complete and total failure from Disney's perspective. It has merely cannibalized the other parks attendance.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes it has, and this happens anytime you open another park wihin a larger complex. It is happened with USF and IOA too. I don't believe it is the only cause.

Uisng Hopemax's attendance figures from another thread, I noticed that while attendance has declined since 1997 (the peak year), attendance is slightly higher than 1992-94. So AK hasn't truly cannabalized the other parks. It actually adds to the overall attendance to the order that Epcot and DS do.

I have been accused by some of being firmly entrenched in car 1. I actually tend to agree more with what posters like AV and the Baron say but AK is far from a "complete and total failure". It could be better but as far as I am concerned, so can every park within WDW, DL, USF, USH, CP, etc etc. I do try and refrain from the hyperbole occasionally displayed here.

[blackshirt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Laurajean1014
[B]
Have you surfed the internet or stores lately? Everything in the stores is either on sale or being sold at very low prices. The economy is bad and people do not spend extra money at Disney, when they have no extra money to spend!!!!!

While I agree that the poor economy has had some effect on attendance at WDW, other amusement parks have actually increased their numbers recently. The majority of the people being effected today are not WDW's target audience. WDW is correctly called a resort. Even staying offsite, it is probably safe to assume that the average customer is comfortably middle class.

[Laurajean1014]

I agree! WDW attendees are working class/middle class income. Thankfully, most of these people have and kept their prospective jobs/careers, when higher income have lost their jobs and low income could probably not afford a WDW trip each year or otherwise.

[d-r]

"other amusement parks have actually increased their numbers recently."

Since the drop in attendance at the cedar fair parks was due to the weather, lets revisit those numbers from last year - it is about the best thing we have to work with.

Attendance at the 50 most-visited theme parks in North America in 2002 was down by 3.2 million visits to 170 million. So overall, attendance at all parks was down by 1.9% in 2002 compared to 2001.

Last year, overall at wdw, attendance was down 6%; this ranged as high as 8.3% at Epcot. So some percent of the variance is accounted for by individual differences in the parks - there were more people deciding not to visit epcot than to visit magic kingdom, at least for some portion of the visit.

Overall, international visits at Walt Disney World were down by about 20 percent in 2002. This was reported as high as 35% in the first quarter, then recovered somewhat. International traffic at Orlando International Airport was down almost 25 percent for the year in 2002. Now this accounts for a lot of the drop of wdw attendance. Remember, wdw has a lot more international visiters than does a local six flag park. So surely this drop in international visiters accounts for a large portion of the variance - in fact, it seems to me that local attendence may actually be up, due to special offers, etc. I don't have those data. It occurs to me, though, that local visiters might be more likely to spend a day at MK than a day at epcot, unlike an international visiter who might stay a week or two and visit them all.

The Magic Kingdom dropped about 5 percent in attendence - you can see this is quite a bit less than Epcot. Despite that drop, the Magic Kingdom in Florida was the best-attended park in the world in 2002 with 14 million visitors, displacing Tokyo Disneyland, the perennial winner. Yes, the opening of Tokyo Disneysea drew down the attendance at Tokyo Disneyland.

After the WDW Magic Kingdom, the top-five best-attended parks in North America in 2002 were Disneyland in Anaheim, Calif., with 12.7 million visitors, up 3 percent; Epcot with 8.2 million visitors; Disney-MGM with 8 million visitors; and Disney's Animal Kingdom with 7.3 million visitors.

So Disneyland actually went up. That didn't help California Adventure, though, so again, clearly some of the variance is due to individual differences between the parks. California Adventure dropped from 5.0 million in 2001 to 4.7 million in 2002. California Adventure is suffering. That 2001 number is probably inflated at the first of the year by new visiters seeing something new, but it is deflated the last part by 9/11.

Now, about those other parks seeing increased attendence. The thinking is that people are more willing to take a short drive to a regional park, rather than flying to a destination (for example, visits to Hawaii have been down the past two years, especially among international visiters).

Of those 50 top parks in America, 29 of them showed an attendance drop in 2002. 15 parks showed increases. So it isn't exactly overwhelming.

Schlitterbahn, a water park in Texas, is often regarded as the nation's top water park. It had an estimated attendance of 810,000 guests in 2002, a 14 percent decline from the prior year. Amusement Business said it was the first time in 23 seasons that Schlitterbahn posted a decline. (Just fwiw, 2002 Blizzard Beach = 1.7 million, Typhon Lagoon = 1.5 million, wet n wild = 1.2 million).

In 2002, Six Flags total attendance dropped from 51.2 million the previous year. By the way, 6 flags hasn't shown a profit since 1998. I think that some of the six flags parks showed increases, I know that the Texas parks and the Great Adventure park in New Jersey showed decreases.

Universal Studios Fl. attendence is reported as 8.1 million in 2000, 7.3 in 2001, and 6.9 in 2002. And it isn't just cannibalization of islands of adventure bringing down USF. In 2000, and I think this was a partial year, correct me, Islands of Adventure attendence was 6.0 million. This dropped to 5.5 million in 2001, then actually rose to 6.1 million in 2002. So Islands of Adventure was one of the 15 U.S. parks that showed increase, in fact it even increased over its 2000 numbers! Amazing success, right? Again, I think 2000 was a partial year for them. At the least, it was a new place then with little awareness. Look at the total attendence at Universal Studios Resort Florida - 2000 = 14.1 million, 2001 = 12.8 million, and 2002 = 13 million. So with all those $99 annual passes, and ticket specials in coke cans and publex, the attendance at USF went up 200,000 over the year. And this was with a second park that was maturing in terms of public knowledge.

In California, Univeral Studios went from 5.2 million in 2000, down to 4.7 million in 2001, and back to 5.2 million in 2002. Much like Disneyland, I expect that Universal Studios Hollywood benefits from much local traffic. So, along with Disneyland, USH was one of the 15 parks to increase attendance. So now we have identified 3 of them. Both of the Universal Studios locations should be poised to show a proportionally higher attendance this year with the addition of new attractions.

Seaworld in Orlando dropped from 5.2 million in 2000, to 5.1 million in 2001, to 5.0 million in 2002. Not much of a drop, but a steady decline. Seaworld also benefits as a largely local park. Sea World in San Diego saw a slight increase, now we have four. Sea World in Texas saw a decrease.

In Tampa, Bush Gardens dropped from 5.0 million in 2000, to 4.6 in 2001, to 4.5 million in 2002. Again, a park that draws a lot of locals. I do not believe that anyone is going to argue that the drop is due to Animal Kingdom, since it opened in 1998.

Knotts Berry Farm attendance was flat. Attendance there went from 3.5 million in 2000 to 3.6 million in 2001, then maintained at 3.6 million in 2002.

It looks to me like Las Vegas is one of the places that is doing well. The Adventuredome at Circus Circus (I've never been to Las Vegas, so I don't really even know what that is) went from 3.0 million in 2000, to 3.4 million in 2001, to 4.5 million in 2002. Again, I don't know anything about this place - is it new or did they add something new or something to account for that growth? Or is there that much increased traffic to Las Vegas?

This article says that people are choosing to drive to Las Vegas

http://www.dailybulletin.com/Stories/0,1413,203~21482~1493360,00.html

Here is another interesting article about Las Vegas - it says that 35% of the respondents in a survey (looks like a convenience sample) said they would vacation closer to home in 2003, and 20% would take vacation at home.

This article says that the casinos are not expected to outperform 2002, due to the economy and reduced tourism due to SARS

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/gaming/2003/jun/19/515239250.html

Anyway, I am not sure about Las Vegas, but the rest of the data seems to me to suggest that the biggest drop is due to international travel. Beyond that, there are disproportionate drops in attendance at the wdw parks that are clearly due to individual differences in the parks - more people attended the Magic Kingdom than Epcot, for example. But that isn't very surprisng to me, really, is it to anyone else? It seems that the 2000 attendance at Epcot would have been artificially high with the millinium stuff.

Here's another way of looking at it. Magic Kingdom wdw dropped 3% from 2000-2001, and 5% from 2001-2002.
Epcot dropped 15% from 2000-2001, almost 8% (7.7) from 2001-2002.
Studios dropped 9% from 2000-2001, 4.7% from 2001-2002.
Animal Kingdom dropped 6% from 2000-2001, 6% from 2001-2002.
Universal Studios Florida dropped 10% from 2000-2001, 5.5% from 2001-2002.
Islands of Adventure dropped ~8% from 2000-2001, and ROSE ~10% from 2001-2002.

Anyway, just 2 cents.

[Planogirl]

Interesting numbers d-r. I appreciate you writing all of that.

In reference to Schlitterbahn, something else may have affected its attendance. The Texas hill country was badly flooded last year which forced Schlitterbahn to shut down and then only reopen in phases. I'm not sure how long this took but I know that they lost July 4. Also, the park has a very short season, running only from the end of April until mid September with part of that being weekends only so a closure will definitely have a strong affect on attendance.

I guess that weather could affect attendance after all. :)

[Laurajean1014]

Dr,

Those stats are quite impressive. I just know that when I go to WDW, which is 20 days of the year, it is always crowded!

I still can't get into Cinderella's Round Table for Breakfast, and can't get a ressie for the Pirate Cruise!

People are still flocking to the greatest show/place on earth!

[mitros]

Amen to that! And we are there 50 days + in a year.:(