DEBATE: Please answer some questions for another loyal poster!

[caseymaureen]

Hello everybody!
Let me say at the top that I know this has absolutely nothing to do with rumors & news, but I wanted to ask my friends on this page a few questions...
I'm an American Studies major and the final for one of my classes is to construct a research proposal on just about any American Studies related subject. After working at Disney, I decided I would probably have the most luck working with a Disney subject since I'd have the experience to back up my opinions. The problem here is that I need some help organizing my thoughts. This is why I have come here, to consult with a few others who spend as much time thinking on the subject as I do :)

My subject is something along the lines of "Why are Disney theme parks still seen as the Happiest Places on Earth?" If you can think of a better way to word this, feel free to suggest! I noticed at Disney, that not too many people look like the people in the commercials. There's a lot of arguing, pouting, and family issues coming to a head in the parks, as you can imagine under the pressure of the lines, the prices, and many times the heat. But these people who may have spent their lifetime savings and fought with each other for the entire trip still go home and said they had a great time, and many will return again, why is this? I met 80 year old couples who told me it was their lifetime goal to go to Disney World, why? Is it the advertising? The company history? How do we explain this pixie dust effect? Why do people who had a miserable time still go back? This includes the people on this board. Many of us spend a lot of time debating issues and problems facing the parks. We talk about the dissapointments and the way things could be much better, but we still go again and again. Where did this loyalty come from?

I'd just like to hear some of your thoughts on this, maybe they'll help jumpstart my brain enough to write out the paper :bounce:
Thanks for all your help!
Casey

[Greg Wright]

For me...my appreciation of Disney, now that I am an adult, is reliving my experiences as a child. The things that disappoint me, then, are not the crowds, heat, the hours (OK they disappoint me somewhat), it's when things change from what I remembered with fond memories of myself, my brother, and parents. For instance, no offense to Whinnie-the-Pooh, but he is no Mr. Toad! He should give his ride back.

The Disney vacation is really the main vacation thay my family would take for years. only when I was in my mid-late 20's did I ever go to the ocean and understand how relaxing it is. The Disney vacation really "fights back." Heat, sore feet, line-waiting, paying way too much for everything. But there is nowhere else where I can remember this.

I only hope my future kids will get the same kind of things out of this that i did. (I'm still not even 30 yet, and not married until this summer.)

Disney appeals alot t dreamers, which I must confess I am. Watching a movie or reading a book...I really get transported there. Living in 'another world' of Disney is just better because you don't have to put it down or turn it off until you leave.

Oh, another thing. Staying on Disney property with all of the "sugar coating treatment" from Disney staff is like visiting another planet for the length of your stay.

I am curious as to the person who originated this post. Where are you from originally and what did you do for a job at the park?

If you want to ask me any more specific questions...go ahead!

[CasualObserver]

Casey,

While other people will disagree (I guarantee it), in my study on the subject, I came to the conclusion that, to a large part, Disney's success is built on two things - nostalgia and the ability to create the sense of "something nice is just about to happen".


The Nostalgia aspect is where the adults begin their journey. Almost everyone my age remembers watching Wonderful World of Disney every Sunday night. A trip to Disney park gives us the chance to connect with our childhood memories. Disney in those days was very careful to maintain their image. They were not focused on being a media mega empire, they were creators of clean, wholesome, family entertainment. We, as children, were the target audience of that product. Now, as adults, we want to relive those experiences and share them with our children.

The second most important part is this "something nice is just about to happen". A trip to a Disney park has it's moments, but the design of the place, the nostalgia, come together to make people forget the crying kids, the short tempers, and only focus on the smiles and the wonderful experiences. There is always a feeling in the air at Disney parks that any minute now something incredible might just happen.

A third aspect just came to mind: the self-selected audience. If you pay thousands to take a vacation, it would be like Tabasco in an open cut to remember it as a disaster. Therefore, we subconciously remember the good things, minimize the bad things, and retell only the best parts to our friends. Why spend all that money and remember that everyone was at each other's throats for 4 days? Instead, remember the fun rides, the "once-in-a-lifetime" trip in only the best terms. Therefore, one could make the argument that if Disney were not so over-the-top we would tend to feel more comfortable talking about the downside.

Hope this helps.

Casual Observer

[Walt's Frozen Head]

casey,

To me, it sounds that you intend to explore what some folks on the R&N board have been exploring under the simple heading "What is Magic?"

There are finer ways to slice the title, if you're interested in slanting the piece in any particular direction; or trying to make a particular statement about/toward Disney.

I'm not sure I can be of much help to you. Although Disney has created some enjoyable rides, I find it difficult to recognize modern versions of the once technically innovative and excruciatingly detailed Haunted Mansion, Pirates of the Caribbean, or 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea... a few "new classic" standouts like Splash Mountain and Tower of Terror just don't seem substantial enough, to me, to offset the decreasing relevance, gradual degradation, and occasional outright loss of the old classics; not to mention support the huge growth of WDW's daily "population," over the intervening decades.

To me, a mastery of the use of story-telling tools... both technologically marvelous and time-testedly effective, and zealous attention to detail were the rich soil in which a very rare Disney Magic was able to bloom.

Today's Disney Magic wilts in a rocky sand of the technologically cheap, the time-testedly cheap, and a spirit of zealous attention to what's cheapest.

The roots of Magic wither and die in such climes.

I would define Disney Magic as it exists in May of 2003 as equal parts "family memories," "it's still better than Six Flags," and "the kid shuts up for a few minutes when I buy it."

"Comfortable 32 degrees," indeed.

[Greg Wright]

I must state my agreement with the previous post. Disney offered story-telling rides...very different than thrill rides. For some reason, Disney seems to be moving away from story rides and into thrill rides...seems silly to me because there are other places that do that better! (Cedar Point in Sandusky, Ohio.)

[Planogirl]

I agree with the nostalgia aspect. When I think Disney, the first image that pops into my mind is a kindly-faced Walt Disney introducing the next episode of the Wonderful World of Disney and then Tink flashing her wand. I feel warm and cozy and that everything is right with the world.

I imagine that a lot of people feel that to this day and are determined to share that feeling with their children. The cold truth isn't quite like that unfortunately but a person's ability to suspend reality and play the imagination game helps them to keep that image alive I think. I'm a bit of a realist so it's been a bit of a struggle for me lately.

[SoonerKate]

Casey!

You might want to expand your paper to discuss college program as well -- I've noticed that nearly all of us who wanted nothing more than to go home during parts of the program now look back on it as a great time.

Also, totally O/T -- I think the boyfriend and I are going to be in Baltimore for a while this summer. Are you staying around town when school gets out?

[crusader]

"Why are Disney theme parks still seen as the Happiest Places on Earth?"

I'm not sure if the general consensus is that they are actually the Happiest Places on Earth. I view this as a sales pitch. It works very effectively when you're dealing with more than your fair share of everyday events and disney keeps telling you where to find sanctuary. Most people get very excited in anticipation of going because it represents so many solutions to their problems and is promoted as a really wonderful vacation experience. Of course it does cost more than the average hiatus so you justify the expense by convincing yourself that happiness is worth every penny.

The reality of this experience is that it really doesn't relieve a person - particulary a parent - from any of the the burdens or responsibilities involved with raising a family. Decisions still have to be made and situations continually have to be dealt with. What ultimately winds up happening is the stress level reaches maximum proportions as your trying to find a way to relax and enjoy yourself while dealing with continual family demands in a heavily conjested environment. You also feel compelled to do more in order to get your moneys worth.

Before you know it, it's over. Are you going to come back and tell everyone that you just spent a small fortune on something which gave you very little in terms of what you thought you were buying and you now need a vacation to recover from this vacation? Not at that expense so you keep up the pretense and embellish a few things hoping to convince yourself as well.

[caseymaureen]

Wow, that's a lot of good responces for one night, thanks guys!

Greg Wright~ I am from Maryland, but I worked in Quick Service Food & Beverage at POFQ, AKL, ASM, and the Grand over my time in the Fall 2002 CP. I'm not one of those CPs that loved the whole thing and kept going back, I actually left 1 month earlier than I was supposed to. I think I ended up very disillusioned after growing up such a huge Disney fan and it not being quite what I expected.

Kate~ Hey girlie! I won't be in Baltimore, but home is only an hour away and I'm very used to the commute. When were you planning to visit? The fam might be going on a vacation sometime during the summer, I think mid-Julyish, and I'm taking classes at U of M college park through July 12th. Let me know when you decide on the dates, I'm sure we can work something out!

As for the CP, I have mixed emotions about it (and I think they must have brainwashed you after I left!) I feel like it was a good experience, it is definitely something I'll remember, and if I could go back I'd still do it because if I hadn't I always would have wished I had. However, I think I saw a lot of things and learned a lot of things that I would have been happier and better off not knowing. I would never want to work there again, but I'll visit when you do :) . I was trying to think of a way to include it into my paper but my teacher said to keep it to one slim subject to make it easier.

[CasualObserver]

Casey,

One thing that goes along with the nostalgia aspect is that Disney never seemed to b.uild their parks around the idea of being the "coolest". DCA is an example when they tried to be "cool" and came off "lame"

Is Victorian mid-america cool? Are former Presidents cool? Even some of the most beloved attractions, Haunted Mansion and POTC are not cool by today's standard. Instead they are classy, campy fun.

Other parks attempt to succeed by being the coolest game in town with "X-treme" attractions. Disney tries to entertain on a less adrenlain-laced basis.

Today's market says fast, dangerous, and loud are cool. Disney, at it's best, is slower, sillier, and yet, still fun.

I would also factor in the cohesiveness of the Disney parks. Disney is about Disney. People associate the characters and stories with the company. Other parks go the licensing route to get characters and fail because the characters aren't seen as having anything to do with the park. When you think Popeye or Bullwinkle, do you immediately think of IOA? Of course not. However, when you think Mickey or any of the Disney characters you associate them with the Disney parks. That association makes you want to go and experience the same creativity that made your favorite films.

Disney has succeeded in connecting, in the minds of the public, the creativity on film with real life creativity. As long as the creativity on both sides stay in synch and stay on a level above the competition, that connection will be reinforced and grow stronger. As the level of creativity in the parks drop, the public will begin to loose the idea that there is a place to where they can travel and experience, first-hand, the creativity they saw on the screen.


Casual Observer

[DisneyKidds]

Casey - as you can see early on, you will get a lot of different thoughts and opinions when asking a question such as yours. Those opinions will be divers and divergent, and you might be well served to explore all sides of this subject, both positive and negative, in your paper.

WFH and others have already started to lay out what is wrong with Disney. WFH's elegant prose is very moving, and not entirely untrue. However, I believe that what you are looking at goes deeper than that which can be affected by the wither and decay brought about by a lack of a certain type of ride and trend toward cheaper when it comes to rides in general. For many who find the Disney theme parks to be "The Happiest Place on Earth" (I wish I new how to do the trademark thingie as I do agree this is more of a sales gimmick than anything else, but the thought behind it is very real, IMHO), Disney is about much more than the rides, or the theme parks themselves. I'm sure many will now provide many examples of how the cheapness of which WFH speaks pervades all aspects of Disney - and maybe they are right. Yet what you are looking for still goes deeper.

Yes, there are things that are wrong with Disney, I won't deny that - yet tens of millions still flock there, and the recent Consumer Reports study finds that the Disney parks are widely regarded to be the best value out there. So, despite the failures, negatives, and problems, Disney continues to be very successful in the theme park market. Perhaps less successful than they used to be, but rather successful nonetheless. That is what I think may be interesting to explore - how Disney can be "ravaged" by the current "problems" (some self imposed and some from outside sources), yet remain as successful as they are. It interrelates very well with the type of "How can a family succumb to the stresses of a WDW vacation and still walk away smiling?" question that you ask (and in this case we know that a smile is not just a smile ;)). It is the fact that most can, and do, walk away affected in a positive way by the experience despite the stresses and the problems that allows Disney to be as successful as they are. What is it about Disney that makes that possible? Sort of like a thesis on 'Disney, a study in how a corporation and the families it serves weather the stresses of the modern day vacation world together'.

What makes this interrelationship between what Disney provides and what guests desire work? I think it is a complicated mix of nostaligia, fantasy, escapism, illusion, and just plain good entertainment/fun. Here is where the interrelationship becomes so important as it is all these things that Disney works to provide, while at the same time they are the very things that people are searching for. To boil it down, Disney has a unique way of providing it's guests with things they may not even know they are looking for. How exactly they do that is up to you to boil down.

When my family vacations at Disney we really are taken away from the real world (if only for a brief respite), moreso than at any other vacation destination we have travelled to. While we are taken away we relive old memories, create new ones, we immerse ourselves in the worlds of our favorite characters and icons of the past and present, we bond around common threads, and we have a boat load of good clean fun. It has taken 50 years to create all of the factors, products and properties that allow this to happen at Disney unlike anywhere else. The reason we all debate this stuff so much is because we want to see Disney create 50 more years of this very stuff, rather than simply rely on and exploit that which has already been created.

Ok, enough of my ramblings for now.......................

PS - I'd love to read your paper when you are done ;).

[caseymaureen]

Casual Observer~ I understand what you're saying. What I've gotten from putting everyone's posts together is this: Disney began with the family-fun, Tink and Walt days of Disneyland and Wonderful World of Disney. They made rides with stories like the Haunted Mansion and Mr Toad. Since then they have stepped away from this and tried to go for fast and cool as opposed to timeless, but people still think of Mickey and the classics when they think of Disney. So they go to the parks with this image and are, many times, dissapointed but they don't want to admit that it was a letdown after they paid so much money and looked forward to it for so long. Parents want their kids to see the Disney they grew up with but are dissapointed when all they get are the Space Ranger Spin and Kali River Rapids. The fans put a lot more into the nostalgia than the parks do.

DisneyKidds~ Depending on how think it ends up I may post it... :) I definitely understand your point of view because it is very similar to the way my family and I have vacationed at Disney; we may fight and have to stand in long lines and pay high prices, but we still go home with a happy feeling and goos memories...

[crusader]

"How can a family succumb to the stresses of a WDW vacation and still walk away smiling?"

I agree some of us do smile for all the things you mentioned and have the ability to make this trip very rewarding. But there is a tremendous amount of insincerity going on down there. I've seen it every time I visit and I hear it often upon someone's return.

People tend to suppress the real truth if it means disclosing something too difficult or personal to admit to. It is much easier and more convenient to save face and keep up the pretense. Eventually you may even begin to convince yourself of your own story and disney starts to resurface as something you imagined it to be. The next thing you know you're planning another trip.

[DisneyKidds]

So they go to the parks with this image and are, many times, dissapointed but they don't want to admit that it was a letdown after they paid so much money and looked forward to it for so long. Parents want their kids to see the Disney they grew up with but are dissapointed when all they get are............
But is this really the case. Sure, most of what we read around this board might lead one to such a conclusion. Also, you have been there and seen the people, and perhaps you have seen a lot of disappointment in the guests you have interacted with - but is there such a pervasive level of disappointment and dissatisfaction? I'm not sure there is.
we may fight and have to stand in long lines and pay high prices, but we still go home with a happy feeling and goos memories...
Thanks for reminding me that I forgot that value is an important part of the mix. We may all complain about prices, but the simple fact is that Disney provides an incredible amount of value for all that money. Cheap does not necessarily equal value. Disney is not cheap, but I believe it is an incredible value - and I think most of us around here realize that. As for fighting and lines, that is an individual family thing. While both can be avoided, it is inevitable that you will hit a line now and again, or someone will have a melt down. However, when you consider the source of the fight or the reason for the meltdown it puts things in perspective.
However, I think I saw a lot of things and learned a lot of things that I would have been happier and better off not knowing.
This thought is very interesting to me. I always wondered if working for Disney would somehow make the whole place somewhat less Magical. Is that what you are talking about - learning a lot of what goes on behind the curtain that leaves you a little disillusioned, or is it perhaps just the furthering of your education in the general business world that isn't so much related to the workings of Disney? Either way, it is a valuable part of your education.

[Sarangel]

caseymaureen -

Don't worry, this is no more off topic than many of our debates (I have taken the liberty of adding the word to the header, tho')...

As for your question, one of the reasons my family keeps going back, despite the issues the company seems to have lately in regards quality or storytelling, is that the cast members and other fans bring something of the 'world we'd all like to live in' with them to WDW. Yes, children cry & parents yell at them & everyone has at least one bad day - but something always seems to happen that is 'magical' (for lack of a better word). I could give you tons of examples, but one or two should suffice.

One afternoon in Epcot, my husband ran across a distraught woman pleading with a cast member to get back the Steamboat Willie pin that her daughter had traded to him (and which he had subsequently traded away) without her son's permission (it was *his* pin). Both kids were in the 5 to 7 year range, and crying for various reasons. Now, my DH is a pretty serious pin trader & so he sat down & pulled out a set of Japanese mini-pins that included Steamboat Willie (the only one he had) and gave it to the little boy. No strings, just something he did to make a little kid happier. This sort of stuff doesn't happen in the 'real' world, and it's pretty cool no matter which side of the coin you're on.

We've also met total strangers and turned them into friends during our stays at WDW, something the common language of Disney allows that the 'real' world doesn't seem to...

Anyway, it's something to think about.

Sarangel

[DisneyKidds]

People tend to suppress the real truth if it means disclosing something too difficult or personal to admit to. It is much easier and more convenient to save face and keep up the pretense. Eventually you may even begin to convince yourself of your own story and disney begins to reappear as something you imagined it to be.
I suppose for some people a vacation or destination can become this complicated, but it really does baffle me as to how :confused:. No offense to you, but to me that just seems like a rediculous statement to attach to a vacation or destination. I can't imagine what could be so significantly difficult or personal to admit about a vacation or a destination. While we have friends who might not enjoy their Disney experience as much as we do, the whole concept of 'saving face' with regard to a vacation seems rather odd. Yes, there are complicated factors at play that influence a persons Disney experience, but in the end there are two questions to be answered. Number one is - did you have a good time? Number two is - did you have a better time there than you have had, or think you might have, at other destinations? So long as the answers are yes, your trip was a success and the place is worthy of another visit. If the answer become no, you explore other options. Why should that be so difficult to admit to? Just because that may not be true for others has no bearing on my experience or opinion, and as such there is no need to hide behind anything or save face. The way I always look at it is - if we have a good time we'll go, and if you don't - well then don't go. Simple as that. It isn't that hard to descern between having a good time and convincing yourself that you had a good time, if you ask me (and I'm still not sure why someone would have to convince themselves they had something they didn't).

As for Disney being something you imagined it would be, I suppose there are many people who go looking for something specific. For the most part they find it. Is it wrong to go looking for something? Not really. I do agree that only going to look for something specific can be a recipe for disaster. Disney works to provide that which people are looking for, but they won't always be successful.

[crusader]

but to me that just seems like a rediculous statement to attach to a vacation or destination

I suppose it could be interpreted that way in general, but not when applied to a disney trip which someone just spent literally thousands on.

People are inclined to be dishonest about the truth so I tend to not buy into every exit interview or statistical survey floating around promoting something as the general consensus.

There's the truth; there's what people tend to say;
and there's what people want to hear.

If these forums don't operate as a testament to that I can't think of a better example to apply.

[caseymaureen]

I do understand Crusader's point though, because it is very similar to how I felt about the CP. It has to be true that there are some people who have had bad vacations at WDW, even if you just go by probabilities. These people probably don't want to admit that they did not have fun, or did not make magical memories or whatever the case may be, because the general consensus is that "everyone has fun at Disney World!"

When I tell people that I worked at WDW for 4 months the regular responce is, "Oh wow! That must have been so much fun!" It actually wasn't and that's hard to admit because people tend to think you're crazy. How could it NOT be fun?! It's Disney World! I worked long hours, doing menial work which I could do working at my local McDonalds, and I didn't even make enough money to cover my weekly rent. I knew that I wouldn't profit from the experience, but I didn't think that I would be quite so in debt when I left.


As to what left me disillusioned, I just saw a lot of things that practically ruined my image of "Disney" as a big magical place. I saw managers laugh in my face when I got upset about an upset guest. For example, a man ordered a cake to be made a week in advance so that his family could celebrate his young daughter's birthday at the resort (POFQ). At the prescribed time the man came to pick up the cake, which had to be done quickly because it was to be a suprise, and the cake hadn't been made. The chef had just plain forgotton to make it and was not at the resort that day. Needless to say the man was very upset, not so much for financial reasons but because his daughter's birthday suprise would be ruined. I was appalled that this kind of thing would happen and became personally involved in righting the situation. I told the managers about the situation, thinking that they would help to solve it. They told me to tell the man to take his receipt to the register to get his money back. That's it. As if that would "save the day." I refused to accept this and pretty much went on a crusade to have a cake brought over from PORS and quickly decorated. I also gave the man a large bundle of Mardi Gras beads to take back to his family with the cake for the celebration. I felt like I was the only person who cared whther or not this guest was happy. He ended up leaving happy and thanking me for my help. I was reprimanded by my manager for wasting company time, for neglecting my station while I tried to find a cake (depsite the fact that there were 3 other CMs at the same station) and for giving the man Mardi Gras beads for his family.

This kind of thing happened almost every day in different ways and it is very depressing to feel like you are the only person who cares to hold up the good reputation of a huge company which is just supposed to care. I just realized that they didn't.

[DisneyKidds]

People are inclined to be dishonest about the truth
Then shame on them...................and again I have to ask why? What purpose does it serve to be dishonest? Who does it benefit? I suppose someone who feels rooked might make themselves feel better, but they aren't likely to go back so why the need for the elaborate ruse? To be honest, most people I know that didn't care for Disney say so, and don't go back. I just don't understand how it can get any more complicated - but I guess it does.
I do understand Crusader's point though, because it is very similar to how I felt about the CP. It has to be true that there are some people who have had bad vacations at WDW, even if you just go by probabilities.
Of course there are people that don't like their Disney vacation. Just like you have no qualms about admitting there were things you might not have liked about the CP, most people I know are willing to be honest about their WDW vacation experience. I know two families that have gone in the past 6 months that didn't have a great time (for various reasons) who have told me so.
These people probably don't want to admit that they did not have fun, or did not make magical memories or whatever the case may be, because the general consensus is that "everyone has fun at Disney World!"
I supose if you let what others think or expect color your perceptions or affect your judgement there could be a problem. IMHO, that is not how most people live their lives, but I could be wrong.
As to what left me disillusioned, I just saw a lot of things that practically ruined my image of "Disney"
LALALALALALALALALALALA............HHHHHMMMMMMMMMMM MM..........NANANANANANANANA.............I can't hear you ;). Only kidding of course. Sometimes it isn't a popular argument in our dicussions, but Disney is a business, and always has been. If someone were to believe otherwise I can see that it would lead to problems. I said I always wondered if working at Disney would tarnish some of the Magic. I guess what I realy mean was I wondered how much, as I always knew it would. How could it not? Business is business. People are people. Bad managers are bad managers. Even at Disney. I suppose if Disney has one more manager or one more employee such as yourself it is bound to create an element of Magic that just doesn't exist anywhere else.

[caseymaureen]

DisneyKidds~ I didn't particularly want to get into a debate, so this will be my last post on this new subject! ( but no promises!)

The thing is, I do have qualms about saying that I did not enjoy the experience. The vast majority of CPs do enjoy their time and so when I didn't, it makes it seem as if there is something wrong with me as opposed to the experience just not being good. People don't want to believe that bad things happen at Disney, and that bad people sometimes work at Disney, they would just rather think that I am crazy for not enjoying it. Prior to my CP experience I would argue with people who said they hated Disney or never wanted to go there, etc. I did not understand how they didn't think it was as great as I thought it was. Now I understand, but I am often confronted with people who feel similarly to how I used to. It gets to the point where when people say "oh, that must have been so much fun!" I just say "yeah, it was" so that there isn't an arguement.

As for Disney being a business, I knew that before I went and that was no shock. But Disney is supposed to be in the business of making their guests happy, and I believe that the example I gave was an example of very bad business on their part. If I hadn't cared about what was happening, that man could have gone back to his hotel with a handful of money instead of a birthday cake. I think that this kind of thing could probably ruin a vacation or at least severely dampen it. He most likely wouldn't have returned and the company would have lost not only the money they would have made from the cake, but the money they would have made from his subsequent visits. And it wasn't just the managers at POFQ, it was at every hotel I was deployed to. At PORS a guest bumped my arm while I was carrying a cup a scalding hot water from a coffee machine (which I was using to melt the overabundant ice in the soda machine.) My hand was burnt and starting to blister by the time I found a manager who did not want me to go to first aid, he thought it would be fine. I decided to go anyways, and when I returned with a hand bandaged like a boxing glove and a nurse's note saying that I shouldn't work for the rest of the day and that for the rest of the week my hand shouldn't be near heat. I was promptly put back to work in the pizza shop, getting hot pizzas out of the oven. At AKL the managers forgot to schedule enough people to work all 10 of the stations and, instead of lifting a finger themselves, decided that the 4 working CMs could handle it all. When the lines quickly became backed up we were berated for not doing our jobs correctly and told that if we hadn't been so incompetent there would have been no line. These kind of things were running rampant and do not seem like good business to me. It seems like a way to run out the people who care and who try so that all are left behind are the people who could care less about the guests, the show, the product, or the company.

Ok, that's all for my CP horror stories! They're a little off topic but I felt that I needed to clarify that this wasn't a one place or one manager problem.

[crusader]

Then shame on them...................

I agree with you. It would be so much easier to be able to speak freely and honestly without having to worry about it being misinterpreted or not well recieved. Not everyone is open to communicate that way.
and again I have to ask why?
Who really knows. Could be they can't bring themselves to accept the fact that they just wasted alot of time, money and effort on something which turned out to be far less than what they expected and they are certainly not prepared to admit that to anyone. Especially in this case. caseymaureen is right. So many people have an idealistic impression of the place it is really difficult to get them to discuss candidly what may really be going on. You are dealing with so many variables to the place - fantasy; reality; memory; impression; desire; etc.....
all playing a different role in everyone's perception.

[DisneyKidds]

I felt that I needed to clarify that this wasn't a one place or one manager problem.
No need, I realized your initial example was only one and that you had more ;).
they would just rather think that I am crazy for not enjoying it.
Don't worry, I don't think you are :crazy:. On the contrary, it looks like you've learned some valuable lessons. Perhaps not lessons that Disney would advertise in the program curriculum, but valuable, real world lessons. Now, if you can determine how Disney maintains the success and general "Magic" impression DESPITE those lessons you will have a good angle to your paper. If you can do that you certainly won't have the typical fluff piece on Magical nostalgic memories........and I'd love to read it. There are two sides to every coin. Speak the truth.......and be confident in your opinions, as you have the experience on which to base them.

It is quite a burden to bear to educate those who don't want to be educated. Just ask Baron, Head, AV, Matt, and a whole host of others how they feel about me :tongue: :crazy: ;) (I'm only kidding of course, while I have learned a lot from them they are not always right :eek: ).

[Walt's Frozen Head]

Disney is supposed to be in the business of making their guests happy, and I believe that the example I gave was an example of very bad business on their part

Well said.

Too often, "your side" of this discussion gets dismissed as being the innocence and naivete of childhood facing the ugly reality of business.

What adorable distress: casey will be all grown up, soon.

It can cast a rather frosty sheen across one's attitude, eventually.

I believe you are correct: Disney has always been a business, but they were doing good business when they had a guest focus and they are doing poor business now that they have a cost focus.

[DisneyKidds]

Disney has always been a business, but they were doing good business when they had a guest focus and they are doing poor business now that they have a cost focus.
Would it be your opinion that examples such as Casey cited are a recent phenomenon and didn't happen 'back in the day'?
What adorable distress: casey will be all grown up, soon.
Paint it however you like, but nobody is trying to dismiss Casey's observations. While she may be learning things (while we may all be learning things), it has more to do with living life than growing up. You can keep your frosty sheen and chilly attitude to yourself if you think I was doing anything but trying to have a productive conversation :rolleyes:.

[CasualObserver]

Kidds,

Why are you so incredulous that people returning from Disney will not want to reveal the downer moments and only focus on the good things?

Go to the local movie house, ask people what movie they saw and then ask them if it was good. Most people will say that it was good. Why? Self-selected audience. They bought the ticket with the expectation that it would be good. Therefore, not wanting to have wasted the money, will focus more on the positive aspects.

It's just human nature. Sure, not everyone will respond in the affirmative, but, in general they will.

It's not about lies or dishonesty, it's about remembering what we want to remember. Disney's design, and image account for a lot of what we want to remember.

Casual Observer

[raidermatt]

A few thoughts that I've had trouble figuring out how to tie together, so I decided to just type...

The vast majority of people who said they had a great time at WDW really did have a great time. No "face-saving".

I've sat on benches in the parks and watched people go by. Most of them appear to be perfectly happy, some even truly excited or giddy. Yeah, every once in awhile somebody walks by yelling at their kid, or moaning about the line they just waited in. But its not very many.

Its very easy to forget this when we are moving around the parks taking care of our own business. We become wrapped up in what we are doing, and it takes something out of the ordinary for us to really notice what others are doing. Is walking around having a perfectly pleasant time going to draw attention? Of course not, but being a stick in the mud will, so that's why there is this perception that so many people are having a bad time.

They aren't. Certainly not anymore than they would be if they were anywhere else.

Yes, there are some factors that can increase stress levels at WDW, such as the heat and lines. But for many, this is offset by the stress factors from everyday life that are reduced.

For those that just plain don't handle stress well, yeah, you're going to see a few snap, but for them, that's normal. So when they give you a glowing report, relatively speaking, its completely accurate.

You put a camera on anybody for an entire day and you're going to find a few moments when they don't look like they are having a great time. Since there's thousands of people in the parks at any given time, your bound to see some people when they aren't having their best moments.

But that doesn't make them insincere when they say they had a great trip. So asking why so many people go back when so many aren't having fun is sort of like asking "when did you stop beating your wife". The question is based on a false assumption.


Now, when you talk working at WDW, that's a different story. People expect that you will have fun and be surrounded by pixie dust because that's what they feel when they visit. However, as with many companies, working there doesn't always match the impressions a customer gets. Perfectly normal reaction to say its not all its cracked up to be... but being a professional opportunity, putting a positive spin is almost a necessity. Nobody wants to hear you became disenchanted at your job or internship. Customers won't understand, and potential employers are generally looking for positive, upbeat people.


All that said, when Disney reduces the benefit side of the value equation, there are going to be more disastisfied folks out there. Certainly there are some who have no problem telling you WDW is overrated (I know I've heard it). Maybe there are some who are just upbeat by nature and hate to even discuss the negative. And maybe there are a few that even feel embarassed that they didn't get their money's worth, and therefore just lie about it.

But this has little to do with how many crying kids or unhappy adults you saw in the parks. A dissatisfaction with the value equation being offered isn't going to cause a perceptible change in the number of anecdotal examples of bad behavior we see. Its just going to result in fewer guests.

[DisneyKidds]

Observer - I am not unwilling to believe it, I just don't understand it. Crusader put on the dishonesty slant, and maybe he really just meant that people are unwittingly fooling themselves. Either way, I just don't see the purpose. If I go to my movie house and see a stinker, I'll call it a stinker if that is the way I see it. Granted we don't all see things the same, but I'm not about to say one thing when I know I saw another - even if I was the one who made the selection. I don't know why anyone would.

[caseymaureen]

Customers won't understand, and potential employers are generally looking for positive, upbeat people.


Now, Raidermatt, don't get me wrong, I am normally a very positive person. I have worked at many different places throughout my life, in restaurants, in hardware stores, and currently at Pacific Sunwear. I have no problem being positive about any one of these jobs. I have learned things and met people that I will remember for the rest of my life. They were, on the whole, positive experiences. I am not the kind of person to be negative about everything, or to back down from a challenge and call it quits. However, the issues and problems I faced at Disney were different than those I have faced at any other job. There were aspects about which I am very postive. I am glad that I went and did the CP because if I hadn't I always would have wondered, "What if?"

Nobody wants to hear you became disenchanted at your job or internship.

I take offense to this because these people did ask me for my opinions and my reasoning, they apparently do want to hear it. And if they don't, they can feel free to skip over my posts. I do not go to job interviews complaining about Disney, and I try to look for the best that came out of the situation. Just because I feel free to express my opinions and my experiences on this board does not mean that I spend all of my time crying over
the 4 months I spent in Orlando. If this is not how you meant the statement, please clarify.

Thankyou for your opinions on my paper topic, they are very insightful and I will be sure to consider them in my writing. People do, however, have bad experiences at Disney. Even before working there, on family vacations (we visited over 30 times) bad things would happen. We'd have problems with room reservations, problems with the food, problems with money, etc. There are many times that we went home unhappy, only months later wanting to go back again. This was the basis for my paper, so although my vacation experience may not apply to everyone, I'm sure it applies to more than just one family.

[hopemax]

We have a local talk show, and a few years ago they had a guest, talking about body language and how to tell when someone might be lying. For an experiment he tape recorded his 3 year old son and a friend playing on a piano and kitchen pots and took it out into the streets of Seattle. He told the passerbyes that he was in charge of booking bands at a local club and he had a song from a new band and he wanted their opinion of it. He played the tape for the audience and it was just an average 3 year old dinking around on a piano and playing with the dishes, this wasn't a musical genius in the making. He asked people young, old, professionals, housewives and something like 75% of the people responded that they liked the song, and recommended that he book this new band. The guest went on to point out how you could tell the people weren't being truthful in their opinions, but he did comment that it would be also interesting to find out why so many people were hesitant to provide criticism in the first place.

[Planogirl]

DisneyKidds, why does it all have to be so black and white? I can easily tell everyone that I had a good time during each and every trip to WDW. I can definitely tell those persons taking the surveys that this is true. I could also tell the CM's asking the questions that each trip was a little less fun than my previous trips but they never ask the right questions. Surveys are like that though. Ask the right questions and you get the right answers.

This may be in a way similar to what CaseyMaureen experiences. People ask if her time working at WDW was fun and many of them want the "right" answer. They want to hear about their preconceived notions of pixie dust and FUN. If she tells them that the truth isn't all pixie dust it flies in the face of what many want to believe. I for one appreciate CaseyMaureen's posts, they teach me something.

[OhMari]

I have visited WDW World twice in my life. When I was 8 years old, I actually was at the Park, peering in through chain link fencing. My great uncle told me, this is where Mickey Mouse will be living. It took me almost 30 years to get there.

I think the timing has to be right for anything. In life I feel there is always a Ying and a Yang. My youngest was 10 years old and my oldest 17. My other two were 12 and 16.

When we were at the Magic Kingdom my 10 & 12 year old loved and it and so did I. My husband and other 2 really didn't care for it, but the made the most of it, cause they saw the excitement on their sister and brother's faces.

We are just a normal family and we do fight, but you have to give a little sometimes.

When we came home I couldn't wait to go back and see things I missed. When I finally did go back it was well worth it. But I found out, there is always something more to do. Disney adds more resorts and other activities and when I got back I read the boards and discovered places at Disney I never knew existed.

I think Disney to some people is like an obsession! The feel they will miss anything if they don't keep going back!

[DisneyKidds]

If this is not how you meant the statement, please clarify.
I should probably let Matt clarify, but I don't think he intended this as you read it. I think it was more of a general 'nobody' in the sense that those who are looking to see what you took away from the experience (potential employers) don't want to hear all negatives.

That being said, I think there are ways of being honest and pointing out negative aspects, while being positive about the learning experience they provided. Again, this is in general in response to Matt's comment, and not directed at you as I don't think you are being too negative and you seem to have taken a lot away from the experience, both good and bad, that everyone hear really does want to hear about, including Matt.

[raidermatt]

As happens all too frequently, I have not done the best job of communicating my points...

Now, Raidermatt, don't get me wrong, I am normally a very positive person. I didn't mean to imply that you were not positive. I actually have no idea, and apologize for implying otherwise.

Nobody wants to hear you became disenchanted at your job or internship.

I take offense to this because these people did ask me for my opinions and my reasoning, they apparently do want to hear it. And if they don't, they can feel free to skip over my posts.

Yikes! I really messed that one up. I didn't meant that nobody wanted to hear YOUR opinions on this board. I mean that when discussing experiences in anything resembling a professional situation, like job interview, or even chit-chatting around the water cooler, most people are going to spin things positively for perception purposes, and rightfully so.

Certainly I didn't mean to offend you, so again, I apologize for my lack of clarity. I tried to forewarn by saying I hadn't really tied my thoughts together into a cohesive point or points, but I can see that wasn't an adequate disclaimer.
Just because I feel free to express my opinions and my experiences on this board does not mean that I spend all of my time crying overthe 4 months I spent in Orlando. If this is not how you meant the statement, please clarify.

Hopefully, I've done that.

My points (what there was of them anyway) were not meant to have anything to do with your personal experience.

I guess what I was trying to say was:

1- So many people say that Disney parks are great because they truly think they are great. Not because they feel a need to fib. Instead, I think our perception of how many people really are having a "less-than-magical" experience overall is heavily influenced by the behavior we see that stands out to us, which is negative behavior. Squeaky wheel gets noticed kind of thing. (not you, but those we observe while touring the parks)

2- I think your experience is different than that of a guest who has a bad moment or two because your reasons for disenchantment are rooted in the reality of how things work, and the direction the company is taking. The average guest may see twinges of this, and it may affect their future purchase decision, but its usually not enough to make them feel they had a terrible time then go home and try to convince others otherwise. Its the subtlety of the affect that Disney's direction is having that makes it so hard to see at times.


There are many times that we went home unhappy, only months later wanting to go back again. This was the basis for my paper, so although my vacation experience may not apply to everyone, I'm sure it applies to more than just one family. Hmmm, well, I'm sure you're right, its just that I won't be of much help here. Of course we have had bad experiences while at Disney, but we've never left unhappy.

When I leave a place feeling unhappy, I don't go back. Unless, I realize the source of the unhappiness was not the fault of the place (like if I caught the flu), or unless something happens to make me believe a change has been made.

While of course there are exceptions, I'm willing to bet the vast majority of folks who return to WDW did not leave unhappy on their last visit. Possibly not happy with every aspect, but overall, happy. (Not counting those who are not happy simply because they have to leave).

Are you really saying your family left dissatisfied with the trip, but later decided to go back? Or is it that you perhaps weren't COMPLETELY satisfied, but still realized going back was a preferable option to going somewhere else?

[DisneyKidds]

I for one appreciate CaseyMaureen's posts, they teach me something.
Did I somehow give the impression that I don't? Silly me, I thought I was encouraging her to tell us more, and not just give us the pixie-dusted version of things. She seems to think that people want the pixie-dusted version and it seems you and I agree that we don't.
DisneyKidds, why does it all have to be so black and white? I can easily tell everyone that I had a good time during each and every trip to WDW. I can definitely tell those persons taking the surveys that this is true. I could also tell the CM's asking the questions that each trip was a little less fun than my previous trips but they never ask the right questions.
Again, you lost me. What is it you see that I'm painting so black and white? It seems that some people are saying that there are those who only tell the good, so as not to fly in the fact of their, and others, expectations. That's what I don't get. I don't agree that only one side, either good or bad, of a story should be told. I want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I agree that you can very truthfully tell someone you had a good time while still pointing out the less than Magical aspects. Did I not get that across?
People ask if her time working at WDW was fun and many of them want the "right" answer.
Perhaps I am making it black and white on this one, but IMHO it doesn't matter what 'right' answer they want - you should give them the whole skinny. If you think it might hurt them you can do it in a sensitive way, but if they asked,they should be prepared for any answer. Maybe I'm the unusual one (hey, keep those comments to yourselves ;)), but if I were to ask Casey what she thought of the program and Disney from an employee perspective, I would really want to know the truth, good, bad or indifferent. What other reason would there be for asking? If I want to just pretend that everything is Magical there are plenty of other places I can go to hear that - but that isn't how the world works, not even the World - and I think we all know that.

[raidermatt]

I made my last post before I read DK's, but I do want to say that DK's clarification is right on (Thanks, DK)... I am most certainly interested in ANYBODY'S Disney experiences, including yours Casey.

[crusader]

I want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

OK so how do you think most people typically respond to the following three questions:

1) Does this make me look fat?
2) How did you like my gift?
3) Do I seem ugly to you?

This is not a new phenomenon and you will not always hear the whole truth when given an answer to the question: How was your WDW trip?

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by crusader
OK so how do you think most people typically respond to the following three questions:

1) Does this make me look fat?
2) How did you like my gift?
3) Do I seem ugly to you?

This is not a new phenemenon and you will not always hear the whole truth when given an answer to the question: How was your WDW trip?
I'd hardly put "how was your WDW trip" in the same class as those other questions. Yes, there are times when people may choose to be sensitive to people's feelings when answering certain questions, I just fail to see how the truth about one's experience at Disney could be offensive.

[CasualObserver]

It seems this is falling into two camps:

1) The "What do you mean WDW isn't fun!"

and

2) People tend to see the good things and overlook the bad


I fall into camp 2.

For those in camp 1, we aren't saying that Disney bites or that we didn't enjoy our vacation, or that the trip was awful but we just lie to everyone.

Instead, we are saying that Disney does a good job of emphasising the good times of our trips that make us want to go back. While there are grumpy times, sweating times, tired-of-standing-in-line times, there are definitely good times and that is what we focus on.

Perhaps it has more to do with people generally being positive in nature. It would take a really miserable person to spend the rest of their days complaining about a vacation. Most people aren't like that.

What Casey is talking about is the question of what does Disney do to make it possible for so many people to overlook the problem times of their trips.

Casual Observer

[caseymaureen]

What Casey is talking about is the question of what does Disney do to make it possible for so many people to overlook the problem times of their trips.

Thanks Casual Observer, those are the words I've been looking for!

Matt~ I accept your apology and explanation, thanks for clarifying :)

And yes, I believe that my family has left the parks unhappy. Times when we didn't get along, and the lines took hours, and the rides were breaking down, and the food seemed particularly bad, and the rental car was crap, and the room window faced a mosquito infested swamp, etc etc etc. I know my mother has said on many many occasions "You know guys, I think that'll be our last Disney trip for awhile. It just isn't fun anymore."
And we go home and think "Maybe we're just Disney'd out...we should go somewhere else..." But then a few months later someone will see a WDW commercial and start bringing up things we did or saw on previous trips and we start thinking "well, you know, the last trip wasn't fun. But the one back in December was, so let's give it another try..." and before you know it we're either in the car or the plane off to Florida. It's selective memory, like has been said. We choose to remember the good times and not the bad, so that we end up wanting to go again.

[crusader]

I'd hardly put "how was your WDW trip" in the same class as those other questions.

You're right that was unfair. A poor sick attempt at humor which I really wasn't expecting you to answer. I just couldn't resist once you started to demand the "TRUTH". (I've really got to start using those smilies!)

caseymaureen thanks for telling your story. I can relate to the times your family had things to deal with which made the vacation less than fun. My family did as well but like you we still kept booking trips. My mother recently had one of the worst experiences imaginable yet came home and bought into the DVC. You're absolutely right - it's selective memory which leads us to romanticize this sort of thing. (and some pretty darn good marketing!)

I'm sure you were challenged a great deal while working there. It had to be difficult complying with the demands of management while trying to respond to the everyday needs of the guests.

[raidermatt]

What Casey is talking about is the question of what does Disney do to make it possible for so many people to overlook the problem times of their trips.
Ok.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think its Disney "doing" anything to make people overlook the bad times. Its just that the good times really do outweigh the bad times for most people. Sort of like Planogirl described it. A bad moment, or even a bad day does not equal a bad vacation.

I'm sure you've all seen the bumper stickers "A bad golf day is better than any work day", or other such variations. When its all said and done, most people realize this later, even if something gets them annoyed at the time, like a bad tee shot on the golf course, or a long line in a theme park.

Also, much of what everyone mentions as being problems, like the weather, long lines, close quarters with family, etc, are going to exist to some degree in lots of places the family chooses to vacation. Not coming back to WDW, and instead heading somewhere else, might not take care of those problems.

In fact, WDW's plethora of entertainment options might actually allow some families to avoid some of those problems by not forcing them to make up their own things to do. Take a family having a bad time at WDW, and instead put them in a tent for a week in the Yosemite backwoods, and they might not fair any better, except maybe in the pocketbook. Of course I'm not saying this is true of everyone.


Now, getting back to Planogirl's point, like DK, I completely agree. It is very possible to recognize Disney is offering less from a value perspective (or simply acknowledge a negative of any kind), and not be happy about that, yet still overall have a good time and consider WDW to be a good value.

Whether or not I share that negative with somebody who asks about my trip depends on the context. In general, when somebody casually asks "How was your vacation?", they are generally looking for an overall answer. They usually don't want a disertation on how Disney's business model is slowly killing the company, but you still get a kick out of Pirates of the Caribbean.

So, in those cases, I'm going to give the overall answer, which has always been "great!". That's not a fib, its just the "short" answer, which is usually what people want. They sure as heck don't want to hear me whine about the change in package delivery, or how a poor philosophy means I have to ride a bus instead of a monorail, or even that it was hot, and then hear me say I'm going back next year.

That confuses people around here, who read our rantings everyday. Just think what it does to civilians!

Just one quote from Planogirl:
Surveys are like that though. Ask the right questions and you get the right answers.
I know this is a tangent, but its so true...

[caseymaureen]

Thanks Crusader, I think I might take that "absolutely right" part out and frame it ;)
It was certainly a challenge in many different ways. If I could tell all the guests one thing pertaining to WDW, it would be:

Remember that the CM you see at the restaurant, on the street, or running the ride, probably has as little or less control over the situation than you do. If we're not allowed to give you something, it wasn't our decision, we would gladly do it but we'd lose our jobs. If the ride is shut down it most likely isn't our fault. And if the prices have gone up and portions down, we've most likely complained about it too. Sometimes I think that the people at the bottom of the totem pole have a better perspective on what it's all supposed to be about than the people at the top. We usually feel the same way you do when these things upset you, we're just not allowed to say, "Yeah, I know it really stinks. What a bunch of cheapos to take away that 4th chicken finger..."
:bounce:

Thanks to all of you for responding to my post! Your experiences and opinions have given me alot to think about. If the paper ends up half as good as it could be, I'll post it for everyone to read. But if it doesn't...I don't want to embarass myself...:rolleyes:

[SoonerKate]

You'd better send it to me! I want to read it either way! :)

[Planogirl]

DisneyKidds, I did go back and read your posts and I believe that I did misread your points. My apologies. I thought that you were trying to say that a person should always state whether something was good or bad and only that. Thus my black and white statement. I meant to point out in my clumsy way that something as complex as WDW can be both good and bad, and this is something that is often overlooked. I think that the balance of good and bad is what colors our perception of the resort, at least those of us without rose-colored glasses. :)

However, upon reading further posts it appears that we actually agree about this. :crazy:

[CasualObserver]

Originally posted by raidermatt

So, in those cases, I'm going to give the overall answer, which has always been "great!". That's not a fib, its just the "short" answer, which is usually what people want. They sure as heck don't want to hear me whine about the change in package delivery, or how a poor philosophy means I have to ride a bus instead of a monorail, or even that it was hot, and then hear me say I'm going back next year.

That confuses people around here, who read our rantings everyday. Just think what it does to civilians!


Matt, this reminds me of a trip I took to the Cayman Islands. I was diving on Cayman Brac, some of the best water on the Earth. I got so annoyed with some of the other divers whining about the wave surge on a particular dive. I felt that they did not appreciate how good they had it. It was my first "exotic" dive location and I was having the time of my life. I loved all of it and the surge just didn't matter.

I guess that's some of what others see in our analysis of Disney's management today. It comes across as not appreciating the fun of it all.

Casual Observer

[DisneyKidds]

However, upon reading further posts it appears that we actually agree about this.
:) ;) :cool:

[minster22]

All right, I admit it. I am just a little bit intimidated posting on this thread but cannot resist putting in my two cents. I read a book several years ago"The Unofficial Disney Companion" by Eve Zibart which addresses the whole Disney package from many different aspects. There is a quote the captures my personal love for Disney. "Walt Disney World reawakens the child in us by providing that extraordinary and undifferentiated stimulation-fantastic, scientific, emotional, projected, fearsome, heroic-that for most people is available only in their youth. Educational programs and museum-quality exhibits abound; the detailed furnishings and decor of the various parks are incredibly accomplished and fascinating, if only in a weird kitsch-culture way; the menu of thrill rides and amusements offered says reams about American pop culture, if you are inclined to muse while standing in line; and the parks undeniable magnetism for tourists of all ages is itself a sociological marvel. " And I like to lay around the resort and water park pools!! Many may debate the quality, service, cost etc of a WDW vacation, I know that it certainly is not a perfect World. For me, it is a truly wondrful respite from my day to day world ( which is pretty darn good to start with !), so I will continue to go back, probably as often as I can.

[caseymaureen]

Minster22~ Don't be afraid, all opinions are welcome! That is a very good quote and I think it accurately describes many peoples' feelings toward the company and the parks. Thanks!