how do you think MS handles this points transfer scenario?

[disneyberry]

boy transferring points is such a complicated thing.
i was thinking some more about it, and wondered how MS handles the following scenario.
i'll probably call them next week to inquire also, but what do you DVC experts think about this?


if MemberA has a Feb Use Year.
and MemberB has a Sep Use Year.

MemberA wants to transfer some 2/2003 points this month to MemberB.

when MS performs this transaction, do they apply the incoming transfer to MemberB's 9/2002 use year?
or do they apply the incoming transfer to MemberB's 9/2003 use year?

this will affect whether or not MemberB can transfer his 9/2002 points out or his 9/2003 points out.

obviously, for MemberA the outgoing transfer would be applied to his 2/2003 use year.
but it seems vague as to which use year the incoming transfer would count as for MemberB.

your thoughts?

[castleri]

I could be wrong but was under the impression that transferrred points retained their original use year and home resort. I would guess that would be the Feb one not the Sept one. Don't remember if you can then bank them into the next year. Hope someone has the absolute definite answer as I have considered doing this with my daughter to get the 11 month window for BCV.

[disneyberry]

yes, that is true, the transferred points do retain their original Use Year properties: i.e. the points' properties will still be a Feb Use Year, so once MemberA's points are in MemberB's account, they are still only valid from 2/2003 until 1/2004. and, yes, MemberB can bank the points, subject to a Feb UY banking deadlines.

however, what i am asking about is how the incoming transfer will affect MemberB.

once you accept an incoming transfer in a certain Use Year, you cannot make any outgoing transfers in that same Use Year.

so the question is, does that transfer count as an incoming transfer in MemberB's 9/2002 Use Year?
or does it count as an incoming transfer in MemberB's 9/2003 Use Year?

heh. see what i mean? this stuff is so confusing... :p

[castleri]

Thank you- I try to learn something new each day and your info is my lesson for the day. Guess I will be very careful about transferring or being transferred to. I thought I read where someone suggested two members transfer points so they could each benefit from the 11 month window at a home resort other than their own but now see that would not work if you can only tranfer one way each year.

[KellyDVC]

I would expect MS to consider the transfer in the use year currently in at the time of transfer. Meaning, if before Sept 2003, then it would fall into the Sept 2002 use year for purposes of the oneway transfer per use year rule.

Of course I have a second guess. In the second scenario, I would expect the use year of the originating points to be the determining factor. In your example Feb 2003 use year points impacts your 2003 use year.

How's that for an answer.

Thanks.

Brian.

[new_yawka]

I love the new and interesting point related questions that come up periodically. I think anyone who know enough about points to ask a question as tough as the one asked by Disneyberry deserves college credit. So DisneyBerry, you have received the Pointology degree of the day in my book. :)

Thanks for the interesting post

[Dean]

What's posted above is the technical and legal interpretation but it doesn't take into account the fact that MS must transfer the point into one of your accounts and specifically into a specific use year. The computer program is also not set up to track different use years than your own. From all that's been written on this board it appears that the points begin with your use year and end with theirs. That means they would be available EITHER Feb through August of this year or Sept through Jan of next year. You could have them transfer the points into EITHER of your use years. I have heard of no one successful in
getting MS to extend the points use year to the full 12 months of the transferred points use year.

[Happy Birthday Cat]

Another thing that they can not track is the home resort of the points. When you transfer the points, make sure they go into the exact contract number you want them to. I recently had some points transfered into my account. I have VWL and BCV contracts with the same use year and therefore the same membership number. These were BCV points so I didn't realize that I needed to specifywhich contract within my membership account.

When I called to use the 11 month window at the BCV for the points, I was told no, they were VWL points, because that is the contract that they had been transfered into. After a few long conversations with MS we got it straightened out, but it would have been easier if I had known this limitation of the system up front.

HBC

[disneyberry]

new_yawka, i got a good chuckle from your comment. :) boy, thinking about this stuff sure makes your head hurt though!

anyway, Dean, your explanation makes a lot of sense.
i've placed a few calls to MS trying to ask them questions about transfer rules, etc. and some of the things the agents have told me seem to indicate that, yes, their system really can't handle multiple use years OR multiple resorts. (see nhmomx2's thread for what i mean about multiple resorts)

so i was thinking that, yes, maybe MS can choose to apply the transfer to EITHER use year like you said.

so here's a followup question. what happens when you bank those points into the 2/2004 use year? heh.

i wonder if MS can then make them available for the full 12 months of the next use year?

as an aside, i really do find it incomprehensible why DVD has drawn up regulations on transferring points that MS's computer system cannot handle. it's so frustrating. (i say again... heh)

[Dean]

Originally posted by disneyberry
i wonder if MS can then make them available for the full 12 months of the next use year? I was wondering the same thing yesterday when I was typing a previous response on this thread. What's been reported is that MS does know when the expiration date is and they will expire then but I haven't heard of anyone who actually has experience with a use or lose issue with transferred points, let alone banked transferred points.

[luckytso]

Based on the several transfers that I have done this year, the following was what happened:

I have a December use year and the member who was transfering me the points have a March use year (points from 3/03 year). MS said that I can choose both the year and contract for where I want the points to be transfered into.

So I had this member transfer his 3/03 use year points into my 12/03 year, instead of the 12/02 use year, and I told MS which contract to use for the transfer.

I would think if I am transfering my points from a December use year to a March use year, there would not be such option since I am still in my 12/02 use year and I would think they would only let me transfer the points to the other member's current year use year (3/03). I cannot imagine they would let me transfer points into their 3/04 year.

[Dean]

The transferred points must be current use year points for at least part of the time during the destination use year. In your situation the transferred points will only be available to use for Dec, 06 to March of 04 unless you banked them. I know if I was in this situation I could see a pretty heated discussion referencing the legal paperwork if I needed to use the points during the time they SHOULD be available.

[DVC Nut]

You can choose if you want the points to go into the 9/2002 use year or the 9/2003 use year.

I know it contradicts the guidebook, but once the points are transferred they take on the use year and home resort of the contract they are transferred to.

Ex: the points start as 200 BCV points with a 2/2003 use year. they are transferred to a member on their OKW contract with a September use year. You can transfer them to the 2002 use year and they will be active until 8/31/2003 or you can transfer them to the 2003 use year and the will be active 9/1/2003 - 8/31/2004.

Someone please correct me, but I do not believe you can bank or borrow transferred points. This means you will want to transfer them to the use year in which they will actually be used.

I know the change in home resort priority can mean the points become active longer than they are supposed to, but it would take entirely too much work on the part of someone at MS to keep track of when each set of transferred points is due to expire and to manually expire them.

So, eventhough MS usually will tell you they keep the use year and resort they originally had (because this is the way it is supposed to be) they dont! So, go ahead and take advantage of this "computer glitch" or lack of technology :)

[luckytso]

I know for a fact that transfered points can be banked since I have done it. However, I don't know if they can be borrowed or not.

[nhmomx2]

So, maybe what MS told me about the points transferred to my account becoming BW points instead of OKW points was right. And they did say I would then be able to bank them. I hope that's the case, but it just didn't seem right. Of course, I probably don't have to worry about it - putting the cart before the horse so to speak!!

[Dean]

Originally posted by DVC Nut
Someone please correct me, but I do not believe you can bank or borrow transferred points. This means you will want to transfer them to the use year in which they will actually be used. The change to allow transferred points to be banked happened the second half of 2000 at the same time they changed the holding points window from 30 to 60. They never published it though and many still are unaware of this change.

[disneyberry]

actually the banking transferred points thing is published in the Multi-Site POS under the "Home Resort Rules and Regulations".

the version i have is dated 8/2002.
the rules for Transferring points starts on the bottom half of page 42.

i was under the impression that the Member Guidebook is not the final word on our membership regulations, but the documents in the POS's are the actual legal rules/regulations.

well, at first i was going to post the text here, but it really is rather lengthy so unless anyone is extremely interested in seeing it, i won't bother to type it up.
besides, everyone should've carefully read their POS's anyway, right? ;)


btw, just wanted to add that the POS clearly states that borrowing of transferred points is not allowed.
it is not clearly stated that banking of transferred points is allowed, but there is a paragraph that talks about what will happen if you decide to bank transferred points.
so that is definitely a written/published indication that you are allowed to bank transferred points.

[Maistre Gracey]

Originally posted by DVC Nut
You can choose if you want the points to go into the 9/2002 use year or the 9/2003 use year.

I know it contradicts the guidebook, but once the points are transferred they take on the use year and home resort of the contract they are transferred to.

Ex: the points start as 200 BCV points with a 2/2003 use year. they are transferred to a member on their OKW contract with a September use year. You can transfer them to the 2002 use year and they will be active until 8/31/2003 or you can transfer them to the 2003 use year and the will be active 9/1/2003 - 8/31/2004.

Someone please correct me, but I do not believe you can bank or borrow transferred points. This means you will want to transfer them to the use year in which they will actually be used.

I know the change in home resort priority can mean the points become active longer than they are supposed to, but it would take entirely too much work on the part of someone at MS to keep track of when each set of transferred points is due to expire and to manually expire them.

So, eventhough MS usually will tell you they keep the use year and resort they originally had (because this is the way it is supposed to be) they dont! So, go ahead and take advantage of this "computer glitch" or lack of technology :)
I don't see how this is possible. A member could buy 150 points (or less via resale) at VB, and 2000 at OKW with a different use year, and different member number. The member could turn around and transfer all their 'low fee' OKW points into their 'high fee' VB contract??? That sounds like cheating on mtc fees. What if many members did this? Would there not be a legal issue with DVC having too many points in inventory at VB? Of course, I only picked OKW and VB to show my point, but you get the idea. :cool:

[castleri]

DVC Nut - now I am really confused - If my DD transfers 60 2003 BDV UY points to me- OKW AUG UY what resort do they have the 11 month window for?

[Dean]

disneyberry, thanks. It's not in the 2001 POS I have nor has it been published in the guidebook, VM or on the website that I'm aware of.

[DVC Nut]

Castleri -

The 60 2003 BCV points would then have a OKW 11 month home resort priority.

If you wanted to delve into it a bit farther and really use them for an 11 month BCV window (trust me, this may be a long and difficult conversation with MS) you could. It means that MS is going to have to do a lot of research on where the points actually came from and a lot of manual transferring (basically cheating their own computer system). All you would have to say is that the member guidebook states that points retain their original use year and home resort and you want to use them as BCV points.

Unless you have a BCV contract also, there would be no point in transferring in the points to use for an 11 month window at BCV. It would be much easier to just have your DD book for you on her membership and put your name on the reservation.

You could get a huge benefit if you plan on using the points at OKW for the 11 month window. you could basically use the BCV points transferred in as OKW points :)

[Maistre Gracey]

Okay, this is not making sense to me. I just got off the phone with MS to ask them some questions. They told me that unless a special exception is made, that I can only except transfered points from Vb or VWL contracts. In other words, because I have VWL & VB contracts I can not have BCV points transfered to my account. They said "you don't have a BCV account, so we would not even know where tp put the points." They did say that if there was an exception, they would retain their original home resort. That only makes sense, otherwise there could be 10 times to many VWL points on inventory. :cool:

[Maistre Gracey]

Mother of Pearl...... Now I am really, really confused. I just read page 42 of my POS (3/2002, so may not be the most current). Anyway, it says in no uncertain terms that transferred points retain original use year, and home resort. :cool:

[DVC Nut]

The fact is that the computer system does not actually track the month of the use year or the home resort. MS tells you that the points kep UY and home resort because that is the way it is supposed to work...it doesn't actually happen though.

Transfers do not happen quite as often as anyone thinks they do. I know a lot of people at MS and they do 1 a month sometimes. The number of points that would actually "switch" resorts then is small and matters little in the whole scheme of things.

[Maistre Gracey]

Originally posted by DVC Nut
The fact is that the computer system does not actually track the month of the use year or the home resort. MS tells you that the points kep UY and home resort because that is the way it is supposed to work...it doesn't actually happen though.

Transfers do not happen quite as often as anyone thinks they do. I know a lot of people at MS and they do 1 a month sometimes. The number of points that would actually "switch" resorts then is small and matters little in the whole scheme of things. If this is true, I should buy a 25 point add-on at every DVC resort, then at the 11 month window I could decide where I felt like staying and transfer all my points to that contract for the 11 month window. Of course, I would have the rest of my points stockpiled at OKW so I have the lower mtc fee.

If there is a computer glitch, it should be fixed. I feel this is unacceptable, and in non-compliance with the POS. In theory, there could be way, way more home points for BCV (or any resort), than BCV actually has. I would think this is not even legal.

Does MS or DVC management admit to this?

Thanx....:cool:

[Dean]

This is one area where the written info in the POS has not been the final word. It is confusing because what we see in print is not how things are done. As for only being able to accept transfer from the same home resorts you have, that is ludicrous. Just stay away from transfers as much as possible.

[new_yawka]

I was considering giving another degree in pointology, to Dean this time. Upon thinking about it, however, a mere student such as myself could never give a Degree in anything to the Dean (a pun, yes, but I love Dean's unending knowledge about this stuff! :) Thanks!)

[disneyberry]

Originally posted by DVC Nut
If you wanted to delve into it a bit farther and really use them for an 11 month BCV window (trust me, this may be a long and difficult conversation with MS) you could. It means that MS is going to have to do a lot of research on where the points actually came from and a lot of manual transferring (basically cheating their own computer system). it really is absolutely unacceptable that in order to get transfers done the way they're supposed to be done, you have to have a long and difficult conversation w/ MS. *sigh*

this really needs to change.
it is sloppy operations, and an indication that some MS agents may need additional training since they clearly do not know the rules that well.

it saddens me. i will definitely be drafting a letter to DVC about this in the near future.
the problem is, probably not that many people know or care about (not to mention understand the rules about) transferring points, so the percentage of members who might actually voice their complaints about this is so little that i wouldn't be surprised if DVC never bothers to remedy the situation.
*shakes head* *sigh*
it's too bad, because transferring points, when done the way DVC legally defines it, really brings a whole new level of flexibility to DVC membership.