New MGM Ride in the Works?

[DisneyKidds]

As posted on Screamscape...................................
Park News - (4/28/03) The buzz about a future project at the studios has brought back to life an old rumor we had posted back in 2000 that claimed that an Armageddon themed attraction of some sort was being planned (2004-2007) to take over a significant portion of the backlot area that would cause the removal of the residential street and force the park to find a new place to install the Osborne Lights. Nothing has been said about Armageddon this time, but the rumored location is back along as well as the idea of something new to replace the old walkthrough studio tour. Anyone know anything more solid?
So, has anyone over here heard anything interesting? Scoop, you alluded to another major project - could this be it? Is it possible this would utilize the space where the backlot theatre now stands (empty)?

If they do add another major attraction to MGM think the height restriction should be...................................;).

If something like this happened...................I assume they'd keep the back stage studio tour as they can't afford to lose an attraction. However, that attraction would be diminished greatly without residential street. The backstage tour tells a story, shows you how buildings are constructed (to build only what the eye can see), and lets you see some real exterior sets. Sure, residential street could have been taken out of the Golden Girls era, but it was a good portion of the ride. I fear that the backstage tour would become nothing more than a showless ride out to Catastrophe Canyon and back. That would be much less of a Show.

ToT 4, M:S, Philharmagic, Everest, AE Stitch makeover, possibly this?....................all the reasons I have been in car 2 - and should stay there. I know, I know, it's early, no confirmation, don't know if anything will happen, etc., etc., but it is nice to have the rumors about.

[DisneyKidds]

BTW - over on Intercot there was a lot of discussion last week regarding a possible stunt show (similar to that found in Disney Studios Paris) located on or near NY Street. Screamscape had previously posted some info about WDI using a couple of MGM bungalows, with there being some speculation about a stunt show.

Not sure which, if either, of these rumors might be true, or if they are related.

Come on all you guys with sources...........................................

[DisneyKidds]

Scoop - good to see you out and about in the wee hours ;). Seeing as you continued your not so cryptic hinting of a new attraction here on this thread, I'll take it as confirmation that you have heard something regarding a new MGM ride. I guess we'll just have to wait to find out what.

BTW - what is your favorite drink? Maybe if we manage to meet at the BW on the 24th I can get you liquored up enough that you might let some of that Scoop scoop regarding new attractions slip :crazy:.

[Another Voice]

There are ideas, plans, schemes, wishes, hopes and wishful thinking being conjured up all the time throughout the company. It doesn’t take much for someone at WDI or WDW to say “I have an idea” and even less for it to become a rumor.

Think about the current situation: the largest theme park complex on the planet thinks it’s being ignored and underfunded. There is a great need for new and exciting attractions. The division in charge of making those attractions has been decimated in the last few years; the survivors are desperately clinging to their jobs before the whole place becomes nothing but a project management operation. A new executive comes into power as a bunch of people put words into his mouth about “how things will be different”. Naturally there are going to be a lot of plans taking out of desk drawers and a lot of excited hallway conversations.

Does this mean any of this will come to pass? Well, we’re still waiting for the Spain pavilion at Epcot, the villains’ flume ride over at the Magic Kingdom, and the “soon to be announced” Beastly Kingdom down at Animal Kingdom. At one point all three of these projects had been rumored to already be under construction. I’ve lost count the number of places that a clone of ‘Soaring over California’ had “just been greenlighted”. There was even artwork of the “Flying Saucer” replacement for ‘Carousel of Progress’ posted in the Internet.

That’s not to say that any of those rumors were wrong. It’s just that plans change, ideas don’t work out, something gets shoved aside for another project, and someone comes up with something better. Disney is far from stable these days and operates in a management-by lurch mode.

So a long answer to yes, there are all kinds of rumors. But if you jump on each and every one of them you’re in for nothing but disappointment. While someone may have an idea the chances of it actually being built are nonexistent. Even the ones that do make it are often radically different: PhilaMagic started out as a ‘Soaring’ clone itself, now it’s a standard theater presentation.

As for these specific rumors, yes at one time there was a plan to clone the ‘Armageddon’ show at both Disney/MGM Studios and California Adventure. Disney likes cloning because it’s a cheap way to add new stuff. But the show has been underwhelming audiences at Disney Studios Paris since opening and so enthusiasm has waned quite a bit.

Their stunt driving show, however, seems to be fairly popular. Since the new head of parks oversaw the creation of Disney Studios Paris, it’s only natural that he (or people who think they can get a budget approved by him) would consider one of the few decent offerings from that failure of a theme park. There is no indication about its chances, but my first thought is “a driving show in a place that rains 398 days out of the year?” Knowing a little something about stunts, you don’t want to do a lot of car stunts when things are wet.

And yes, there are always plans to rip out the backlot. The Studio isn’t a studio anymore; you’ll find more production going on in any given residential neighborhood in Burbank on a weekend than you’ll get at Disney/MGM Studios in a decade. Disney is always trying to come up with new uses for the land. Pressler and Eisner wanted to clone DCA’s Paradise Pier and call it a Coney Island set. It could have been an entire Villains Land. Every time Disney comes up with a big movie someone spins an idea for a big ride to go along with it.

My read on the situation is that Disney is not looking to spend major dollars on the theme parks. The top management believes the parks no longer generate returns at the levels they want. Simply put, they make more money by investing in direct to video sequels than a new theme park attraction. They spent twice the money on ‘Piglet’s Big Movie’ than they did on Disneyland’s ‘Adventures with Winnie the Pooh’ Ride. That you tell you everything you need to know about their priorities.

To end on an optimistic note, there are people who sincerely want new and big attractions for the parks. It is simple good business sense. But whether the current corporate conditions allow for that to happen is the issue. You can hope that eventually some of the rumors come true in a form, just don’t count on any one rumor in particular.

Sometimes you just have to wait and see…


P.S. - Shopping mall rides in World Showcase are "nice additions" Mr. Scoop?

[DisneyKidds]

Thanks for the thoughts AV. What you lack in originality you more than make up for in consistency ;):smooth: ;);).
But if you jump on each and every one of them you’re in for nothing but disappointment.
Now, I could do without the lecture :rolleyes:. I hardly "jump" on every rumor. I see lots of rumors. What is important to pay attention to is various "chatter". The intelligence biz operates much more on "chatter" than anything else. Only when I think I can try to connect some "chatter" with some "rumor" will I throw out a post such as this. I may not have the inside sources when it comes to the rumors themselves, but I am very careful about following the trails and piecing together the puzzles.
While someone may have an idea the chances of it actually being built are nonexistent.
Seems that months ago I made similar posts regarding 'Forbidden Mountain' being green-lighted. I only made that post after connecting a bit of "chatter" with a bit of "rumor". Many people (maybe even including yourself) dismisssed the idea with the old 'the World is full of good ideas that never happen' and 'I've been disappointed too many times to believe it' speeches. Well, Expediation Everest is a reality and Disney is starting to spend more money on the parks. Not that I'm saying that something is definitely happening at MGM, but I've seen enough rumor and chatter to at least justify asking if those with connections have heard anything. If Scoop wants to be cryptic and I want to try and draw him out a bit - well, that is my perogative ;).
Sometimes you just have to wait and see…
And that is why this is what I always do. I see no reason why we can't have something to talk about while we wait...................last I checked "Rumors" was still a part of this board.
P.S. - Shopping mall rides in World Showcase are "nice additions" Mr. Scoop?
P.S.S. - I keep hearing you talk about these WS shopping mall kiddie rides, yet each time I hear about a new attraction it isn't these :confused:. In fact, you are the only one who even has any rumors or chatter regarding these rides. I hope they do happen so that I can at least have some faith in your not-so-cryptic-any-longer rumorizing ;).

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds

P.S.S. - I keep hearing you talk about these WS shopping mall kiddie rides, yet each time I hear about a new attraction it isn't these :confused:. In fact, you are the only one who even has any rumors or chatter regarding these rides. I hope they do happen so that I can at least have some faith in your not-so-cryptic-any-longer rumorizing ;).

Alladin, Primevil-Hurl , TriceraTop Spin.

I wonder how much of "Disney's" Money really when into any of these new attractions? Aren't all the new "additions" sponsered by.... Now?

[raidermatt]

Disney wants to invest less money in the parks. That is no secret. They say so anytime there are analysts or major stockholders within a 50 mile radius. The financial reports show the decline in capital spending.

1999 $1.699 billion
2000 $1.524 billion
2001 $1.278 billion
2002 $636 million

Disney touts this continuing decline as a reason to be optimistic about the company. The merits of that aside, when it comes to being hopeful about more new attractions, its easy to see why there is some skepticism about what projects will actually see the light of day, and for those that do, what will happen to them in the process.

Remember the above spending includes all of the domestic parks (6) and resorts (including hotels, restaurants, stores, etc), construction in Hong Kong, DCL, ESPN Zones, DVC, and I believe at least some of Euro Disney's capital spending.

From a fan point of view, the questions are how low are they going to go with this spending, and will they be able to secure capital from sponsors, a la Compaq/HP for M:S.

So, while I also don't have any inside info, it does seem that we have to cast a suspicous eye on any rumors, or even projects, until we get to actually see what is built. (That's not to say the rumors are not worthy of discussion) If we are lucky, Microsoft or some other sponsor(s) will step up for something big...that's a big wild card.

I've said this before.... I would be very concerned about what the state of MGM will be in 4-5 years if no major additions are even under construction by that time. So I would hope that Disney has something in the hopper. But then again, I never would have thought they would allow Epcot to go so long with so little updating and/or adding, so that's why I am more skeptical than some.

[DisneyKidds]

Alladin, Primevil-Hurl , TriceraTop Spin.
You guys must have some kick-a** shopping malls :crazy:.

These rides may not be the most innovative, exciting new additions. While they may be somewhat 'off the shelf' and most definitely B, C, or D ticket, I'd hardly call them shopping mall kiddie rides. Actually, the fact that they added Aladdin (can we say the name now?) and TriceraTops looks like a good move. Yes, they added some kiddie rides where they could give that group what they needed and would get excited about (without Disney spending a fortune). Now we have M:S, Philharmagic, Everest, and who knows what (with more money being spent). Everyone lamented the addition of these 'kiddie rides' and said how Disney wouldn't spend the money on real rides and was not giving guests what they want/need. In hindsight all of these rides kind of have a balance, no?

[YoHo]

I think the biggest concern with those rides mentioned is how poorly they were executed. Personally, I think they could have come up with a different type of standard carnival ride to base triceritops and Aladdin on, but then, maybe nobody thinks The "Scrambler" is worth cloning.

Is to rumors in general, you know, the forbidden mountain rumors date back to before 1999 when I came on here and the thing ain't built yet. I've actually been to DCA and still have its bad taste in my mouth, rumors are fun and esxciting, but A_V is right, every time an Imagineer opens his mouth, it makes it to the internet. It's not worth the time to get excited yet.

[HB2K]

Many people (maybe even including yourself) dismisssed the idea with the old 'the World is full of good ideas that never happen' and 'I've been disappointed too many times to believe it' speeches. Well, Expediation Everest is a reality and Disney is starting to spend more money on the parks.
E:E is about as far along as WRE is. Don't shout too loudly yet.

[raidermatt]

One point I forgot to make is that the only reason to have any hope that Disney will spend much of anything on the exisiting parks is that they are only constructing one park at this time. For the last several years, there have been multiple parks under construction, so maybe we can get a little up-tick in new attractions while overall spending still decreases (and it will decrease)

Actually, the fact that they added Aladdin (can we say the name now?) and TriceraTops looks like a good move. Yes, they added some kiddie rides where they could give that group what they needed and would get excited about... Say what you will about the unknowns of M:S, Everest, and this mystery MGM attraction, but let's not get carried away.

TS is not a good move in anyone's book.

In hindsight all of these rides kind of have a balance, no? Not really. Same debate, different day. The only difference is Everest has been announced and is not a rumor.

The balance is weighted at opposite ends as opposed to along a spectrum, and as YoHo mentioned, the execution on some of these is poor at best.

Perhaps better execution alone would be enough.... We'll never know...

[Another Voice]

“Only when I think I can try to connect some "chatter" with some "rumor" will I throw out a post such as this.”

Which is nothing more than I do, along with a touch of background knowledge about how Disney works.

You might not like the results of my “analysis”, but it seems like the function of this board is to determine which rumors are likely and which ones are not. There are plenty of sites out on the Internet were every tidbit – true or not – is meet with a dozen posts of “it’s wonder”, “it’s magical”, several hundred bouncing smiling faces, a picture of the poster’s cat, and a animated .gif of every pin in their collection.

While those other Internet discussion groups are eagerly counting down to the opening of Spain in World Showcase or booking their trip for last December’s soft opening of ‘Mission: Space’ or wondering when their bringing back the subs with a kEwL ‘Atlantis’ theme, we here are ahead of the curve.

Lastly, are you still excited by announced additions like Beastly Kingdom and the Eagle Pines DVC development? No doubt you’ll be flying out to California in time for the previously announced opening of Disneyland’s third gate next year.


P.S. The shopping mall rides is simply one of those pre-fab ideas that can be easily and quickly announced. I personally hope it never happens, but I think the economics and the marketing conditions are right for it to happen. There is no definite answer to it…that’s why it’s still a “rumor”.

P.S.S. – Take a look at the pictures of ‘Flik’s Fun Fair’ at California Adventure and imagine those same rides dressed up with “international” themes – a French balloon ride, a Chinese dragon train, etc. You’ll have an instant Kid’s Pavilion for World Showcase. I’m sure even Mr. Kidd could see the difference between parking lot carnival attractions (Primeval Whirl) and shopping mall rides (Flik’s Flyers).

[YoHo]

While I think it would be lame in World showcase, I actually thought Flick's funfair was one of the better done parts of DCA.

The rides themselves are junk, but there was a cohesiveness to the palce. Its like they took the 100% wrong idea and then did it really really well. So, you have something that is useless, but looks good being useless.

[mitros]

At the risk of being berated by Another Voice, What I had read back in 1999 was that they were supposed to re-do catastrophe into an "amageddon" ride. And at the risk of totally agreeing with Another Voice, disney does say a lot of things that do not come to fruition. OK Another Voice, no more smiley faces.

[DisneyKidds]

You might not like the results of my “analysis”, but it seems like the function of this board is to determine which rumors are likely and which ones are not. There are plenty of sites out on the Internet were every tidbit – true or not – is meet with a dozen posts of “it’s wonder”, “it’s magical”, several hundred bouncing smiling faces, a picture of the poster’s cat, and a animated .gif of every pin in their collection.
Again with the lectures :rolleyes:. Thanks dad :crazy:.

AV - I know darned well the function of this board and I generally like your analysis. Sometimes you speak a hard truth, sometimes you are wrong..........but I enjoy reading your take. So, no, I have no problem with the 'results of your analysis'. Were you to present your analysis as such, without what appeared to me to be a somewhat (perhaps unintentional) condescending 'hey, friend - you need to learn to be smarter than to jump up and down over every rumor you hear' tone of "voice" it would have been of much more value to me. Go back and take a look at my post. Not talk about how wonderful and stupendous an addition was coming. No smilies, no cats.............just a question born of seeing the same thing mentioned or alluded to in no less than 4 different, independent places. If that ain't the purpose of this board I guess I don't know what is. Yes, you are entitled to respond in any way you see fit, but.............ah, nevermind.

[mitros]

Way to go! And I'm putting my smiley face back in. :D

[Another Voice]

Ladies and Gentlemen –

This has been an interesting experience. What ever the future has in store for The Walt Disney Company, I hope you enjoy your visits to the parks and the movies.

[airlarry!]

If one doesn't use smilies and cats to clutter up the gossip and rumormongering, then why would one take offense to M. AV pointing out that the DIS board is 'ahead of the curve?'

I've always liked this board because it is the 'hard news' and 'Disney debate' section of the internet. Sure we have some hardcore sourpusses (and AV is not one--if you actually read his posts), and we have some hardcore pixiedust sunglass wearers.

But by and large, this board has always had the most informed posters, with generally intelligent debate about the realities behind the magic.

Oh yeah. Go back and re-read his first post. Where is the acrimony and condescention? 'Nuff said.

[YoHo]

If I read AV's last post the way I think I do, then shame on all of you. I've seen friends on the other side of the Aisle leave for similar reasons. AV has one of the most unique situations of ANYONE reporting rumors here. To drive him away would be a detriment to this board. And quite frankly, you can enjoy your Screamscape bullcrap without me as well.

[DisneyKidds]

If one doesn't use smilies and cats to clutter up the gossip and rumormongering, then why would one take offense to M. AV pointing out that the DIS board is 'ahead of the curve?'
The "offense" (and I use quotes so that we realize the notion of someone truely being offended over this stuff is adsurd) isn't in what is pointed out, but the assumption that someone thinks it needs to be pointed out.
I've always liked this board because it is the 'hard news' and 'Disney debate' section of the internet. Sure we have some hardcore sourpusses (and AV is not one--if you actually read his posts), and we have some hardcore pixiedust sunglass wearers.
I DO read his posts and I hardly think Monsuir AV is in line to be king sourpuss, although he usually has (or should I say had?) a slightly more pessimistic slant than some (not that that is a bad thing). I guess it may not matter though, as.......................
This has been an interesting experience. What ever the future has in store for The Walt Disney Company, I hope you enjoy your visits to the parks and the movies.
........................as it appears I may have scared off another important poster :confused:.
But by and large, this board has always had the most informed posters, with generally intelligent debate about the realities behind the magic.
I agree.
Oh yeah. Go back and re-read his first post. Where is the acrimony and condescention?
Maybe it is just me, but AV's first post would have been wonderful without the "long answer to yes, there are all kinds of rumors" prelude. The information he provided regarding the specific rumors is great, and exactly the kind of information we all come to these boards for (as AV so eloquently pointed out). However, while you may or may not have needed the "There are ideas, plans, schemes, wishes, and hopes........." speech, I sure didn't. I didn't need the "if you jump on each and every rumor..............." speech either. After I try and point that out, someone feels the need to 'educate' me on these boards. Not sure if you needed that lesson either, but I didn't.

Maybe I just blew this out of proprtion, so I'll just go back to planning how I'm going to get from my Eagle Pines accomodations to the AK for the opening of all those rides in Beastly Kingdom on my next WDW vacation, which will take place after I have visited DL when the third gate opens. :rolleyes:.

AV - sorry if I "offended" you with this nonsense and if you didn't intend to talk down to me I still forgive you ;).

[DisneyKidds]

To drive him away would be a detriment to this board. And quite frankly, you can enjoy your Screamscape bullcrap without me as well.
Wow, appears as though I've created quite the incident :crazy:. The concept that anyone could be driven off by this 'stuff' is either rediculous, or a clear indication that someone takes it way too seriously. Heck, it appears I am taking this garbage way too seriously as well.........now where is that door :earseek:. I wonder how many other people are going to stomp out of the room :confused:.

Really, nobody is trying to 'enjoy any Screamscape bullcrap', just trying to come to the best source to see if there is anything behind the info from Screamscape that is consistent with chatter I had seen elsewhere, including this very board.

I agree on AV and the info he brings to the table. I'm sorry, but that doesn't mean I should have to put up with being lectured and spoken down to just to get it. It may not have been intentional, but that is how it came across (to me at least - but if you weren't the one the lectures were aimed at I can see how you might not read it that way).

'Nuff said.........................I hope.

[mitros]

:D Hey, youv'e got my support!:p

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by mitros
:D Hey, youv'e got my support!:p
Thanks for the moral suport......................but let's not set up camps and factions and escalate this 'war' :eek: ;) :crazy: :earseek: :jester: :tongue: (don't worry, I'll be back with some more smilies to keep AV happy - but I just have to access the darn site that has 'em ;)).

Now, to try and get back OT, anybody else have any info to share regarding the (now exposed as completely rediculous) possibility that MGM might have a short list of projects that might fit into the backlot area?

[YoHo]

I had something long written out in response, but I decided nuff, said should be respected a little.

The short short version. Yes, you shouldn't have to be lectured to, but you don't exist in a vacuum. Your comments whether you want them to be or not are colored by the thoughts and comments of everyone else here AND everyone else here previous to you who has said the same or similar things. You should perhaps cut him some slack with the understanding that he and many others have been driven to using the tone they have in their replies and it becomes incumbent upon you to prove that you deserve better.

Not very fair, but the world isn't and again you aren't in a vacuum.

[mitros]

:D You got it!:p :D :p :jester:

[mitros]

:D The "you got it" was for you, YoHo snuck in ahead of my post. {I've got to learn to type faster}

[Planogirl]

DisneyKidds, I have to add my two cents here. I enjoy reading your comments even though they seem a little distorted by a pair of rose colored glasses to me. And that's the point! You sound totally rational to yourself while I sound rational to me and the Baron sounds rational to himself and so on. We learn and develop our ideas by listening to all of these varying viewpoints. (I hope that I don't sound condescending!)

AV, in my opinion, tries to explain his own perceptions of what's really going on and does so in an entertaining way. I don't feel that I have to agree but each and every one of his posts but they all cause me to sit back and think about the subject at hand. And that's a good thing while we try to figure out this convoluted mess known as Disney. AV has never sounded condescending in any way to me but has simply stated his ideas and observations and I personally have a lot of respect for those.

I won't leave but I can tell you honestly that AV leaving is a big blow to this board just as the frozen headed guy and the pirate leaving were. I have to hope that AV will reconsider and come back just as they did.

[DisneyKidds]

Boy - I feel really sorry for those who might turn in to find an MGM rumor..............but anyway...................
AV, in my opinion, tries to explain his own perceptions of what's really going on and does so in an entertaining way. I don't feel that I have to agree but each and every one of his posts but they all cause me to sit back and think about the subject at hand. And that's a good thing while we try to figure out this convoluted mess known as Disney. AV has never sounded condescending in any way to me but has simply stated his ideas and observations and I personally have a lot of respect for those. Hey, I pretty much completely agree. It is just unfortunate that it appears to be AV's observation that he is the only one who knows that the World is full of rumors that will never be, and probably shouldn't even be rumors. It is unfortunate that it is his observation that I jump all over every rumor I see. Perhaps that isn't what he intended to say, but his comments in direct response to my post make it a pretty easy connection. Maybe he was just trying to be 'entertaining', but was there really a need for the entire first half of his post? He typed a whole page before he even got to the rumor at hand, and it seems that page was dedicated to pointing out how foolish it is to believe every rumor and that some people know better. Heck, I hadn't even said I believed this rumor and I was just looking for some info. Maybe his dissertation on the dangers of jumping on every rumor weren't directed at me, but if they weren't he picked a heck of a place to get on his soapbox.
You sound totally rational to yourself while I sound rational to me and the Baron sounds rational to himself and so on. We learn and develop our ideas by listening to all of these varying viewpoints. (I hope that I don't sound condescending!)
I agree (and no, you don't sound condescending ;)). However, I wasn't attemptig to sound rational in professing my belief that an attraction was coming to MGM. I asked a question about the possibilty that a new attraction was in the works (and it isn't like I ask the question often - last time was a few months ago when I posted similar info about 'Forbidden Mountain' :)) and I was told (to paraphrase AV) that the World is full of all kinds of rumors, I should stop jumping all over every rumor I read, and a new attraction is unlikely for MGM in the near future for this reason and that reason. Frankly, I would have much preferred he just told me he didn't think an attraction was likely and why.

(There, that sounded rational...................to me at least ;))
I can tell you honestly that AV leaving is a big blow to this board just as the frozen headed guy and the pirate leaving were. I have to hope that AV will reconsider and come back just as they did.
I agree. I hope AV has not gone to the great freezer in the sky, or sailed into the sunset. However, if he has he has got to have better reasons than this.

[raidermatt]

What is it they say about opinions and some holes?;)

Since everybody's got 'em, here's mine.

AV's post had one sentence that I think could come off as a bit preachy, which was the "But if you jump..." sentence.

However, I'm pretty sure it wasn't meant that way, and probably wasn't even directed at any particular individual, but was instead a general statement.

DK, I don't think your original post was particularly rose-colored, other than the comment about this rumor beind ONE of the reasons for you to stay in car 2 (which, by the way, we all know is a classic case of denial ;) )

That comment is probably what precipitated the "But if you jump..." sentence. Sounds like an even trade of general statements that may or may not be directed at any individual or car, and both should probably be cut some slack especially given the imperfections of this medium. Certainly I don't think anyone really was trying to offend anyone else.

So, hopefully, NOBODY feels the need to take anything more than a temporary break from our discussions.

As for the original topic...

I have no idea. I can only speculate. I'd like to think Disney knows they can't let MGM go largely untouched for another 5 years or so. Further, as I said, while spending is most certainly decreasing, its still possible that the exisiting parks could get more investment than in recent years due to the construction of new parks sucking up less than in the recent past.

So its possible that decreased spending and this 'additional' MGM attraction might not be mutually exclusive. Based on Scoop's post, it seems pretty clear something is at least under consideration (note, he said WDW, not MGM, so that leaves a lot of possibilities open), but as AV also points out, that doesn't necessarily mean it will move ahead.

Another thing to consider is that Epcot is still sitting there in need of something more than M:S, no matter how good M:S turns out to be. While MGM shouldn't be ignored for the next 5 years, Epcot can't be ignored either.

Then there's DCA, and rumors of DL getting another E-ticket in 3-4 years... There's a lot of hands fighting for the shrinking pool of park investment dollars.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
I guess it may not matter though, as.......................

........................as it appears I may have scared off another important poster :confused:.



So it is you that determines for everyone who the important posters are? I'm sure you did not mean it to come off like that....



back to MGM, how could you people want more stuff in MGM after all we just got a Giant Hat, a Walk through of Walt's old stuff and a great new parade. :Pinkbounc :smooth: :bounce:

[DisneyKidds]

So it is you that determines for everyone who the important posters are? I'm sure you did not mean it to come off like that....
Hey, just because I may think AV is 'important' doesn't mean I think anyone else is not. We are all important. Combine that with the Crickets mystery over the big one that got away, hence the lost important poster comment. I know, I know - I get your point.....................you could have read it that way and misinterpreted, etc., etc., etc.

If you really want my opinion, I do consider AV more important a poster than myself. If one of us had to be banished I'd prefer it be me since AV does have sources for some inside info. Everyone's opinion is important, but some people have access to more goods. Make of that whatever you like.

As for MGM, when did RnR open up? Has it really been that long since there was a real addition? Was Fantasmic pre or post RnR?

[Walt's Frozen Head]

To drive him (AV) away would be a detriment to this board

That depends on who you ask.

There are some people here who would rather not hear the things AV has to say, because it would force them to reconsider their own faith. They come here to hear about more Magic, not business reality.

It is no wonder AV has left/is leaving/is considering leaving the boards: what is there to stick around for? The folks buying what he's selling are a tiny minority 'round here.

Unless he simply enjoys the semantic excercise of skinning stupidity alive in the mid-day sun (I understand that's the only reason some personalities still hang around the DIS), there is nothing for AV here.

For better or worse, the DIS is where people come to make and hear happy Disney noises. Another Voice, and several others, have never been welcome here for that reason... and that condition has gotten worse as Disney's own condition gets worse.

May your waves always remain tasty, dog.

-WFH

[mitros]

:( So,AV did not care for what some folks had to say, so he/she took his /her ball and ran home? :confused: Sorry I don't know if AV is male or female. Not that it matters :cool:

[OnWithTheShow]

Fantasmic opened in 1998.
Rock n Roller Coaster opened in 1999.

[raidermatt]

Never would have guessed that Scoop is really Martha Stuart.

[raidermatt]

Sorry, Martha! ;)

Seriously, the post was a take on your last line "And that's a good thing". That's a signature of Martha on her show (You can pick up on it when Saturday Night Live does a parody as well... Their "Martha Stewart's Topless Christmas" was particularly strong)

[Walt's Frozen Head]

'Scoop,

You're definitely correct that the Rumors and News Board is indeed something of an oasis on the DIS for those of the Car-less-than-two persuasion. My reference to "'round here" meant the DIS in general, not so much the R&N board in particular. Much of the thanks for that goes to Sara and Luis and a certain amount of moderatorly restraint applying the "on-topic" rule to certain posts.

If I may egregiously abuse an analogy, it's sorta like telling us "you're not a minority, why, just look at how many of you there are here at the back of the bus," ya know?

-WFH
www.jjewell.com

[DVC-Landbaron]

Scoop!

May I point out a small error in one of your recent posts? Really small. Insignificant almost, in letter count, but MONUMENTAL regarding content.

You said: Heck, I've stuck around even though people think I'm either lying, blinded, or ignorant for believing what I do about the current state and future prospects of WDW.

You need to omit the word ‘either’ and replace the 'or' with an 'and'!!

Thank you!!

;) ;) ;)

[Planogirl]

No way, my friend. Look at the regular posters. Many more agree with you and Baron and Voice and Larry and Matt and Bob and Europa and HBK and Plano and Hope and......

This is a Car #3 type dominated board. That's not necessarily bad either. Heck, I've stuck around even though people think I'm either lying, blinded, or ignorant for believing what I do about the current state and future prospects of WDW.

I think that a lot of people who never post read here too. And even if they don't agree, it gives them something to think about.

And scoop, I never have thought that you lied... ;)

DisneyKidds, you're probably right about one thing. It's not just this little fuss that might have made AV leave. Just my view but sometimes too much pixie dust and "hugs" in the face of reality (admittedly MY reality) can get to a person once in a while. I'm not saying that is why AV might have gone away but maybe it added to the decision?

As for the original post... what was it again? ;)

I assume they'd keep the back stage studio tour as they can't afford to lose an attraction
This part caught my eye. WDW has lost a lot of attractions, why not the backstage tour? The Studios aren't really functioning as a working studio any more so why keep up the facade? I think that area would house a coaster real nicely.

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by Walt's Frozen Head
That depends on who you ask.

There are some people here who would rather not hear the things AV has to say, because it would force them to reconsider their own faith. They come here to hear about more Magic, not business reality.

It is no wonder AV has left/is leaving/is considering leaving the boards: what is there to stick around for? The folks buying what he's selling are a tiny minority 'round here.

Unless he simply enjoys the semantic excercise of skinning stupidity alive in the mid-day sun (I understand that's the only reason some personalities still hang around the DIS), there is nothing for AV here.

For better or worse, the DIS is where people come to make and hear happy Disney noises. Another Voice, and several others, have never been welcome here for that reason... and that condition has gotten worse as Disney's own condition gets worse.

-WFH
Hey, let's see who else I can "offend" today :crazy:. Sorry Head (if you can hear this) but any implication that this applies at all on the R&N Board is a crock ;). Every last word of it. Even your clarification after Scoop refuted the details hardly makes this post any more true.
WDW has lost a lot of attractions, why not the backstage tour?
Simply BECAUSE of the fact that they have lost so many attractions. Disney should be coming up with additions, and not just replacements.

[DVC-Landbaron]

Mr. Kidds! How long have you been here? You signed up at night, but it wasn't last night, was it? (rim shot)
Simply BECAUSE of the fact that they have lost so many attractions. Disney should be coming up with additions, and not just replacements.EVERYONE who hangs around here for even a day or two should know that what Disney SHOULD do and what they DO do are not just worlds, but are universes apart!!

[crusader]

The DIS for anyone who has a connection to the place - past present or future.

Those of you in cars can switch seats all you want but ultimately you're more likely to all wind up at the same destination than not so why torment yourselves over who rode with whom?

This mood probably has little to do with the topic of this thread, pixie dust or smilies which cannot possibly be even remotely influential in dissuading a "regular" from engaging in any debate on these forums.

[DVC-Landbaron]

p.s. So silent upon your return? "WDW is Evil" rehab taking longer than usual?No. Quite the contrary (if I read your post right). For the very first time in 30 years there just wasn’t enough pixie dust to make me forget that WDW is merely a shell of what was once a GREAT vacation destination. So…

… no glowing reports, no blinders, no rose-colored, no (or at least very little) MAGIC, no....

… How sad! :(

Also for the very first time car #4 is looking like a sleek corvette compared with car #3 which is feeling more and more like the family station wagon with wood paneling!!

Again, How sad! :(

[Peter Pirate]

It may be sad. But it's also predictable. You beat the same drum over and over. See Eisner as the antichrist and give no (little) credit to anything done in the past 20 years and you're bound to start beliving your clippings.

What's really sad is the Landbaron I first met still saw things as they were instead of why they are. This constant negativity is the downside of this discussion group and why I ALWAYS make sure I have the 'rosie's' on when coming around.

Mr. Kidds, this is the future you were contemplating!;)

As for me, I just spoke to gcurling who's pulling into WDW about now. Tomorrow night at this tme I'll be doing the same and I won't look for anything...I'll just let it be...

[crusader]

It is bound to happen when you approach this vacation with a level of expectation beyond the reality of the trip. It is the idealist who looks to feel magic and pixie dust from something rather than themselves, knowing full well they aren't real. Disneyworld is what it is - a place loaded with options and people to hang out with on vacation. How you feel, how you respond to unpredicated events which occurred and how you choose to spend your time is entirely controlled by you.

[mitros]

:( I have only been with these boards for a short time, so I don't know how long people have been bashing eisner, although I don't beleive these boards have been around that long. {20years} My point is that eisner did a lot for the company......... in the begining, back in the mid 80's when he started with disney, and saved the organization from being bought out and broken apart. Eisner was the saviour of the Walt Disney company, probably right up through the early 90's. But he evidently got a big head and thought he was God's gift to the corporation while he was really raking it over the coals. Maybe that is the point that a lot of people on these boards are trying to make, perhaps? :confused:

[raidermatt]

Senor Pirate, I'm only speaking for myself, but really, I wouldn't give a rat's patoot why things are as they are, were it not for the fact that troubling things are happening.

Is it enough to make me not go to WDW? No. Will it ever be? I don't know. If things continue to deteriorate, maybe.

I can let things be with the best of them, and really, when I'm at WDW, I do (in fact, that's a big reason why my other favorite destination is Hawaii...its might be the best place in the world for just relaxing and letting things be). But to pick just one example, when I make a purchase and want it sent to my room, but instead it now goes to another store at my hotel, should I lie and say I don't care? I don't let it get to me then, because there's no point to it, but when it comes time to state an objective opinion, I'm going to say it stinks. Its a small point, sure.

Is my expectation unrealistic? It wasn't 2 years ago.

So as these changes mount, maybe I will at some point decide to vacation somewhere else. Maybe I won't. But if I do, it won't be the result of some self-fulfilling prophecy theory...it'll simply be because WDW no longer offers my family a better option than an alternate location. I really don't see any reason to suspect the Baron reached his current position any differently.

Negativity when providing analysis is not bad in and of itself. The truth is what it is, and if developments are providing a negative direction over a positive one, what point is there in ignoring that when we are trying to have honest discussions?

That doesn't mean we have to agree, of course, but to me, it seems unfair to discount someone else's version of reality because doesn't jive with one's own version.

How you feel, how you respond to unpredicated events which occurred and how you choose to spend your time is entirely controlled by you. Of course it is. Baron has simply stated he will likely be allocating his vacation time differently in the future.

Yes, how we respond is completely up to us. But what logical person would choose to vacation in any location when they feel that location is offering them less than another? Disney offers a product, and every piece of that product can be traced to a tangible decision or action. The "Magic" comes from the interaction between those tangible decisions/actions and the guest. Regardless of whether you believe Disney HAS reduced its side of the equation, if someone feels they have, the product, whatever you wish to call it, has been de-valued for that customer.

When it comes to making a purchase decision, it is not that customer's responsibility to overlook the reduction and make the best of it. Yes, that's probably the best route once the purchase decision has been made, but in this case, it hasn't. We simply have a customer who has stated his purchase decision has been impacted by a company's course of action.

So that customer leaves. Such is the way of business. If a company loses more than it gains, its in for big trouble.

Blaming customers for not responding positively to events brought on by management decisions maybe relevant when advising somebody how to make the best of a disappointing situation. But it has little relevance when talking about the merit of those management decsions.

So there.

(And with only one quote....somewhere, the president of the League of Quote Haters must be smiling...;) )

[crusader]

I didn't get the impression that Baron was leaving the world. It appeared more along the lines of a disenhearted fan who is being forced to resign himself to a perpetually changed environment.

There are roots to the place which may be strong enough to weather just about anything. The disillusionment process can take years but it happens to the best of us. It's like believing in a concept so intensely it becomes tangible in nature but the truth is it really was only a fantasy. Step back and look at it closely and you see the operation in all its glory and failures. You see oz behind the curtain.

[Peter Pirate]

Matt, I never have discounted Baron or your or most other opinions. Certainly they are equally as legitimate as mine and in the case of Baron maybe more so as his devotion to the Disney mystique is truly greater than mine.

But I dispute your allegation that discussion of the negative in such great detail and with excrutiating minute as we do here cannot but help to lead a person to a conclusion that they may not have come to if left with their blinders fully in tact...And certainly that conclusion would be longer in comong for most people (if you believe it is inevitable).

Disney has screwed up and has problems but big deal. This is just the now and tomorrow can always be better - Maybe Eisner will retire next week.:cool: And even in this so-called screwed up 'now', we still have a wonderful sounding M:S, Philharmagic and Everest to look forward to and for those of us who choose to see the positive a new MGM attraction soon in the offing.

I reiterate that I do not discount your opinions...But I do believe that the constant barrage of negativity seen here hurts an individuals actual perception...

[OnWithTheShow]

Did someone say something about a new attraction?

[raidermatt]

Leaving may not be completely accurate, but visiting significantly less appears to be very accurate.

With respect to the complaints around here, for the most part, its not disillusionment with finding out there's a man behind the curtain. If nothing else, many of us go through great pains to point out we know there is a man behind the curtain, and there always has been. In fact, some are very interested in everything that man does from back there, and how he does it.

The problem, as it is perceived, is with the WAY the current man and his minions are running things from behind the curtain.

[Peter Pirate]

BTW MAtt, quoting Bill Murray is a true touch of genius...I have gained a huge amount of respect for you!!!:D

[raidermatt]

Did someone say something about a new attraction? As usual, it all started with a mouse, er, rumor.

Heir Pirate, when it comes to how the negative opinions themselves influence the opinions of others, I think it depends on the individual. But when you look at the Dis as a whole, the far more popular boards are largely filled with *hugs* and *pixie dust*. Then there's the other sites that don't even have a little corner like this for discussing things rationally. Which is fine of course, but since most people do not confine themselves to just the Rumors and News board on the Dis, its hard to imagine someone's entire perception of Disney being corrupted due to the rantings of a dozen or so lunatics over here.

I understand your point about WDW still being a great place, loved by many people despite the problems. But problems are problems, and WDW doesn't exist in a vacuum. If they reduce their value, or even in an optimistic view, reduce the rate of their adding of value, they will lose ground to other destinations.

If that happens, that's not good for anybody who cares about Disney, and it is a separate issue from where an individual decides to travel.

[raidermatt]

BTW Matt, quoting Bill Murray is a true touch of genius...I have gained a huge amount of respect for you!!!

Gunga, la gunga, gunga...gunga la gunga.

:teeth:

[crusader]

The problem, as it is perceived, is with the WAY the current man and his minions are running things from behind the curtain.

Fair enough - but rest assured the minions are running it eventhough the man sits on the throne.

What I don't get is why place so much emphasis on food; bussing; viewing spots; schedules; how many boats were in fantasmic; whether you had to carry your gifts back to your room: etc.........etc..............etc. If this stuff really causes you to compromise your values then what are you vacationing for in the first place? Why go somewhere you refuse to allow yourself to settle into? Why not walk away.

[Peter Pirate]

Hey Matt, did you hear that the Llama was a big hitter?:)

[DisneyKidds]

Did someone say something about a new attraction?
Just a couple of rumors and some chatter. However, all I got was a black eye when I tried to talk about 'em ;). Of course there are no guarantees that anything will happen, but it wouldn't surprise me either way if there was or wasn't increased chatter and more talk over the next 6 to 12 months. The one thing that someone is right about is that we'll just have to wait and see. There are people who know more than I, but they aren't talking.
For the very first time in 30 years there just wasn’t enough pixie dust to make me forget that WDW is merely a shell of what was once a GREAT vacation destination.
Sorry you feel that way Baron :(. Soon enough I'll see for myself, and me, Greg, Matt and Scoop will hopefully talk about how good or bad it is over a drink or two ;).
Mr. Kidds, this is the future you were contemplating!
Nah - I think I've righted my ship. However, and not because I'm developing Baronitis, a can't get rid of this nagging itch in the back of my Disney loving soul to possibly give the Universal parks a try in December. I don't want to say that Baron is right, but Disney does keep chipping. I'm looking at the real possibilty that over the entire Memorial Day week there might only be one showing of SpectroMagic. Like to believe it or not, Disney may have cut too close to the bone for me on some things. Combine that with DC (and my related AP discount) most likely going away............well, they are making me think about Universal. That has nothing to do with the blinders being removed or my 'disillusionment' being revealed - it has to do with maybe, just maybe, me getting close to the point of finding it acceptable to take a few days of my business elsewhere for strictly consumer value and entertainment reasons. That doesn't mean I'm about to accept the car 3 decleration of independence from Disney. I still believe the Magic is there. I still believe Disney is doing many things well. I am very encourage by the upcoming additions and recent announcements. I very much believe in enjoying Disney for what it is, as opposed to reviling it for what it isn't. I think there is ample reason for me to remain in car 2, but that doesn't mean I can't say I won't take a few days and spend it at the competition. You know, I probably won't do it (just yet), but I do think about it, and that is quite a change..............and that's the fact, Jack ;).
But I dispute your allegation that discussion of the negative in such great detail and with excrutiating minute as we do here cannot but help to lead a person to a conclusion that they may not have come to if left with their blinders fully in tact...
I'll just speak for myself......but I have been fully able to weather the waves of negative discussion. More often than not, my eyes (thru the rose colored glasses) see copious amounts of steam coming from all that hot air most of the other side of the aisle is full of ;). Any misgivings I have now are strictly due to events and circumsatnces I would act upon with or without the discussion on this board. Entertainment being cut too far, my DC discounts drying up.........I don't need these boards to reveal to me that those things are just unacceptable to me.
Heir Pirate, when it comes to how the negative opinions themselves influence the opinions of others, I think it depends on the individual.
I do agree with this statement. There are those who don't truely love Disney for the reasons others might, and the negativity here could sway them. There are those who love Disney sooooo much (like Baron) that the negatives leave them a little more scorned than most. As you say................
Certainly they are equally as legitimate as mine and in the case of Baron maybe more so as his devotion to the Disney mystique is truly greater than mine.
............and that devotion is quite the double edged sword. Hey, maybe the real difference between the twos and the threes is that the twos just have that certain, hard to obtain, balance between love and devotion to Disney, reality, and the ability to live in the moment and be optimistic about the future. I hope (and think) I can still claim that.

Well......that is more than I thought I was going to type..........sorry if I rambled ;).

[crusader]

it has to do with maybe, just maybe, me getting close to the point of finding it acceptable to take a few days of my business elsewhere for strictly consumer value and entertainment reasons.

Two questions here -

Does universal really give you more in terms of consumer value? There are two areas which categorically fall into this arena: ticket prices and accomodation rates. The hotels offer an entertainment rate which is the best deal going but that's basically it. The AP ticket prices however don't appear to be offerring more.

What would this entertainment be that it would lure a Disney loyalist to the competition? Showtimes doesn't add up here. It would have to include the attractions as well.

[Peter Pirate]

I think you're pretty close to hitting the nail on the head crusader. People go to Disney for years. They're big fans, medium fans, small fans...Maybe not a fan at all. Then some disenfranchisement sets in and the first thing often said is "I'm giving my business to Universal because they've built new rides!"...Well, duh! IOA is a new park, they're relatively new in the business. People will certainly find a great time there their first time (maybe even second, third, fourth and fifth) visit. But over the long haul will Universal replace the "thing" that Disney has gven over the past many years? This is an unknown (and I AM NOT presuming to answer it).

What I do know is that my friend gcurling really likes Universal and visits frequently. He admittedly holds them to a different standard (not better, not worse) just different.

In our family my wife and oldest girl will be visitng IOA this weekend for a birthday party. It's my daughters 3rd visit so it will be telling. It will be my wife's first (I suspect she will like it).

I don't think visiting Universal equates with Disney shortcomings necessarily but it probably does indicate that the hype over 'Disney bads' and the hype over 'IOA goods' is being heard...And listening to hype & innuendo that fills these boards, without proper filtration is a dangerous thing,;)

Lastly Mr. Kidds, while I appreciate the quote...The more appropriate one would have been "have you ever had the spatula treatment?":o But semi-seriously, I appreciate your and Matt's contention that you've maintained your objectivity despite the negativity, I just can't see how. Did you religiously check the Spectro schedule or hours before trips prior to this board? See, we never checked anything. I didn't check anything because it was anecdotal. We couldn't do anything about it anyway. When we couldn't do something we wanted we switched gears and always had fun...Often we found something grand and different because of this happenstance. Now, as members of this board we know everything, expect everything and like Howard Beal are "mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore". This isn't an excuse for the deterioration we've seen (as I know Matt will point out) but rather a caveot. Not a justification but a condition.

Certainly things are not running smoothly at Disney, but even if they were we would have a contingent ready to jump on every mistep or perceived abnormality. Is this disputable?

[airlarry!]

Scoop, you might have hit the problem there.

We are debating here whether or not there really is something in the works for MGM this year, yet Baron's tied in for 40-odd years with his DVC purchase.

Add that to the fact that no resort anywhere, ever should realistically be expected to entertain anyone every year for 10 or 20+ years, and you get what you have with Baron.

Unfortunately, when 40000 people buy into DVC, they are expecting that their resort will entertain them ever year for more than 10 or 20+ years...

That is one real reason why there needs to be a definite plan for maintaining and upgrading each park, and each resort hotel, for each year.

The sadness comes in debating whether it will happen or not. The fun comes in debating what will happen (Armaggedon?)

[YoHo]

Add that to the fact that no resort anywhere, ever should realistically be expected to entertain anyone every year for 10 or 20+ years, and you get what you have with Baron.
And yet, there are people who were alive in 1955 who STILL make pilgrimages to Disney every year. It may not be realistic. It may be hard to comprehend, but it is FACT that people have been enthralled with the product Disney offers for almost 50 years. And that is why the sudden wave of "baronitis" is so concerning.




Did you religiously check the Spectro schedule or hours before trips prior to this board? See, we never checked anything. I didn't check anything because it was anecdotal. We couldn't do anything about it anyway. When we couldn't do something we wanted we switched gears and always had fun...Often we found something grand and different because of this happenstance.

At the risk of beating a Dead horse my good Pirate compadre, YOU know as well as I do that the commando Disney vacation is NOTHING new. it has been going on at least since Epcot. Reservations 60 days in advance, Luau reservations two years in advance. This stuff has been going on forever so while you and Scoop and quite Honestly myself may just sit back and soak, there is a contingent, a large contingent that does it the other way. To be blunt, nobody is asking how you vacation, because how you vacation is relevant only to you. Disney has to care about how most people vacation and given my experience with guidebooks and other references over the years, I think the vast majority are at least middle of the road or commando types.

Now then, to continue on this point which is really a subtopic, but I have something to say, you both have access to Hopemeax's little compilation of park hours. you know when and by how much those changes were made. I put it to you that based on that fact alone, there is compelling evidence that Disney's actions had a direct effect on the negativity on places like this. In other words, Disney's cuts in hours corrispond nicely with when the "negativity" started to flow. SO gentlemen, you have a nice chicken and egg situation. Did Disney's recent changes bring negativity to the boards or did negativity on the boards draw more attention to Disney's changes.

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by crusader
Two questions here -

Does universal really give you more in terms of consumer value? There are two areas which categorically fall into this arena: ticket prices and accomodation rates. The hotels offer an entertainment rate which is the best deal going but that's basically it. The AP ticket prices however don't appear to be offerring more.

What would this entertainment be that it would lure a Disney loyalist to the competition? Showtimes doesn't add up here. It would have to include the attractions as well.
Sorry crusader. I don't mean to imply that Universal is a better value than Disney, or that Universal has better entertainment. While overall I think that Disney is the better value of the two, Disney may have cut back just enough to lower the Disney value enough (if even just a teensy bit, and not below Universal) to make me think about trying something different. That is the point of the entertainment part. Universal isn't providing better entertainment, just something different. IF I do opt to spend a few days at the competition it will simply be because Disney has made a cut that has made me do something now that would eventually happen even if Disney never made any cuts. Eventually, we will spend days at Universal and Sea World. Without the current Disney cuts we might not do it for years yet. With the cuts we may do it sooner. As everyone points out, visiting the competition is good for us as consumers and vacationers. However, it is not good for Disney - but they must live with the results of their decisions.
Then some disenfranchisement sets in and the first thing often said is "I'm giving my business to Universal because they've built new rides!"...Well, duh! IOA is a new park, they're relatively new in the business. People will certainly find a great time there their first time (maybe even second, third, fourth and fifth) visit. But over the long haul will Universal replace the "thing" that Disney has gven over the past many years?
I don't think visiting Universal equates with Disney shortcomings necessarily but it probably does indicate that the hype over 'Disney bads' and the hype over 'IOA goods' is being heard...And listening to hype & innuendo that fills these boards, without proper filtration is a dangerous thing, Now, as members of this board we know everything, expect everything and like Howard Beal are "mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".Alot of this frustrated talk can snowball beyond how bad it really is. We all know we can all get so worked up that we miss the forest for the trees.
I can assure you that none of these statements applies to me. Some sudden realization of disenfranchisement has not made me jump the Universal bandwagon and had me start beating the Universal drum. Furthermore, my decisions are not all about 'Disney bads' (as bantered about on this board), and really have nothing to do with 'Universal goods'. Hype and innuendo is not what I make my decisions on.
I appreciate your and Matt's contention that you've maintained your objectivity despite the negativity, I just can't see how. Did you religiously check the Spectro schedule or hours before trips prior to this board? See, we never checked anything. I didn't check anything because it was anecdotal. We couldn't do anything about it anyway. When we couldn't do something we wanted we switched gears and always had fun...Often we found something grand and different because of this happenstance.
I really do believe that I have maintained my objectivity - and that ain't easy to do lately ;). To answer your question - yes, I did religiously check the Spectro schedule prior to this (the R&N) board. I am quite the planner - not to the point of militant touring once we get there, but I do know what is offered when so I generally know which days we will hit which parks. Entertainment info was available from Disney prior to my discovery of the DIS. I also found the rest of the DIS long before I found this little discussion group. Had I never found you guys and the discussions we have, I would have noted the fact that Spectro was barely being offered and been unhappy about it all on my own, without any discussion, hype, or innuendo from anyone else. Like you, I have always rolled with the punches and taken reduced hours and certain entertainment as an opportunity to discover new things. That will happen again on our May and December trips. Unfortunately for Disney, the reductions may be enough for one of those new things we discover to be outside of Disney. Again, that isn't all Disney's fault. My DD sees the commercials for Universal and asks about the place. Sea World has a lot to offer for young, fish and aquatic mammel loving, kids. These are things we will do eventually. Disney may just have moved up the timeline. And all of that would be true with or without the things I read around here.
Certainly things are not running smoothly at Disney, but even if they were we would have a contingent ready to jump on every mistep or perceived abnormality. Is this disputable?
Nope - can't dispute that. I like to think I can seperate the wheat from the chaff ;). IMHO, much of the criticism around here is unwarranted. However, you have to admit that some of it is deserved, and it doesn't take a board like this to see it. Wouldn't you agree with that?

[DisneyKidds]

(Armaggedon?)
The ride :), or the complete and total destruction of Disney as anyone knows it :(. (Ooop - there goes that negative hype and innuendo again ;) :crazy: )

[crusader]

Disney has to care about how most people vacation and given my experience with guidebooks and other references over the years, I think the vast majority are at least middle of the road or commando types.

Sure - but the systematic approach is destined for failure especially when applied repetitously. I will agree that prior to 9/11 this country in particular placed far too much emphasis on superficial factors. What was important basically lacked substance.

We were all served up a healthy dose of reality my friend and what we did with that experience holds true to our approach in life today. If the average guest is really that kamakazi you describe than that may explain why the parks are so barren. There aren't as many of them as you think and I hope the company realizes that for most of us it isn't about the chicken or the egg. It's about rest, relaxation, good conversation, making a difference to someone, great times, great memories - wherever, whenever.

Disney offers that - for me, it offers a grand villa with a great balcony so I can bring down 25 people for the first time. It offers me a ride like ToT where I can pile in as many as can fit who have no idea what to expect and laugh and laugh at the choice photo op when we exit. It offers me a halloween event which promises to be a great night full of entertainment.

It really is what you make it and not what you expect it to be.

[DisneyKidds]

It really is what you make it and not what you expect it to be.
I do agree. However, everyone has a point where they stop trying to turn lemons into lemonade, and realize that there is a cool-aid stand on the next corner. Most will never give up lemonaide, but it would be better for Disney if they never allowed people to taste the cool-aid.

[crusader]

Most will never give up lemonaide, but it would be better for Disney if they never allowed people to taste the cool-aid.

But DK - they can't stop the cool-aid stand from setting up shop across the street no matter how hard they try and they can't imprison their base to the point where they keep them from enjoying something they may not be offering.

It's like a security blanket for the loyalist. You can never replace it but eventually it gets worn and you have to wean yourself from it. There are some great new attractions on the horizon at disneyworld and universal. Hopefully you will be able to allow yourself to experience both without feeling a sense of guilt or abandonment of tradition. This isn't going to hurt disney. Last time I checked the population was growing not shrinking.

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by crusader
But DK - they can't stop the cool-aid stand from setting up shop across the street no matter how hard they try and they can't imprison their base to the point where they keep them from enjoying something they may not be offering.
Ahh, but I believe that Disney does have a larger measure of control than you think they do. My main point is this. Without some of the reductions that have been made (hours, entertainment, DC discounts), it is very possible - no, likely - that may family wouldn't have visited the Universal parks for at least another 3 or 4 years, if not longer. That was money in Disney's pocket. Now, if we go to Universal and love it we could very well spend a few days there each trip (two a year) for that 3 or 4 years, if not longer. Money right out of Disney's pocket and into someone elses.

It's like a security blanket for the loyalist. You can never replace it but eventually it gets worn and you have to wean yourself from it. There are some great new attractions on the horizon at disneyworld and universal. Hopefully you will be able to allow yourself to experience both without feeling a sense of guilt or abandonment of tradition. This isn't going to hurt disney. Last time I checked the population was growing not shrinking.
No pangs of guilt or feelings of abandonment here. Disney will survive without a couple of hundred dollars a year from me, from you , from , from, from...................However - they won't be as strong as if they had kept one or two of us (because you can't keep them all) exclusively on Disney property. The shame in it is that there is no reason for it to be this way. Disney is still full of wonder. If the blanket were properly cared for it would still be in like new condition. I don't have to wean myself at this point. On the contrary, just like my cats mother abandoned her and stopped nursing her sooner than she should have, Disney is making me look at other sources to drink from sooner than it had to be. I realize there is other great entertainement out there - and I know full well that we will experience it sooner or later. Wouldn't you agree that later would be better for Disney, even if sooner is a good thing for me?

[YoHo]

Sure - but the systematic approach is destined for failure especially when applied repetitously.

Why?
It's been perfectly acceptable and viable for over twenty years, why all of a sudden is it destine for failure?

[HB2K]

they can't stop the cool-aid stand from setting up shop across the street no matter how hard they try and they can't imprison their base to the point where they keep them from enjoying something they may not be offering.
While you can't stop the competition from opening up shop, maybe if Disney kept serving lemon aid instead of handing their customers lemons noone would look at the competition.

Sooner or later, the lemon aid inventory will run out and all you'll be left with are lemons.

I didn't check anything because it was anecdotal. We couldn't do anything about it anyway. When we couldn't do something we wanted we switched gears and always had fun...
If you go to an Outback steakhouse for a steak, and you find they're only serving hamburgers, do you leave with the same feelings about Outback as you came in with?

[raidermatt]

What I don't get is why place so much emphasis on food; bussing; viewing spots; schedules; how many boats were in fantasmic; whether you had to carry your gifts back to your room: etc.........etc..............etc. If this stuff really causes you to compromise your values then what are you vacationing for in the first place? Why go somewhere you refuse to allow yourself to settle into? Why not walk away. Who's settling? Again, our family weighs our options and goes where we want to go. Disney parks/resorts remain one of our favorite options.

That should not preclude us, however, from pointing out negative trends.

If/when those trends take enough toll to make Disney NOT one of our favorite options, we simply won't go.

No values are compromised, nor will they be. Decisions are simply made.

When it comes to this board, we discuss the whys and hows, and debate the merit of Disney's philosophies/decisions.


Hey Matt, did you hear that the Llama was a big hitter? Yup, LONG. Hit it right into this 10,000 foot crevice right at the base of this glacier.
:D

[raidermatt]

Crusader, I understand what you are saying, but you are projecting your vacation wants/needs/philosophy onto everyone else. We all have different wants/needs from our vacation time. For some, that includes being able to see certain parades, ride certain rides, eat at certain restaurants, whatever. When things are removed or shortened, options are reduced.

Regardless of what one personally thinks about the importance of those options, there will always be others who feel differently. It the number that cares about hours, schedules, closed attractions and new attractions is miniscule, then I guess in the big picture, Disney will end-up no worse for the wear.

But if that number is significant, Disney is in for more trouble.

With regard to my personal habits as they relate to the Pirate's question... I've only been to WDW three times. Prior to that it was DL only. Our first trip to WDW involved very little planning. Zero advance PS's, not plans for any particular park on any given day. The only thing we planned was a tee time.

Did we have fun? Absolutely. But after finding we had difficulty getting in to eat at some restaurants, and missing shows/parades that we didn't realize had limited schedules, and so on, we made the determination that more planning would be beneficial to our trip.

So, I took that on and that is the whole reason I started visiting these boards, and looking at hours and schedules.

I did not start looking at those things because I came to this board, I came to this board because I was looking for those things.

Now, in the process, I became more interested in the business aspects of Disney, as well as its history.

But really, you can rest assured that my dissatisfaction with Disney's trends in its business practices is not a result of a pied piper effect. Its simply the result of how those trends affect what I want from my vacation at WDW, and how I believe they affects Disney's overall success as a business.


I don't know if its important, but I do want to point out that really, I am not a commando vacationer by nature. That explains why we did almost zero planning in advance of our first WDW trip. However, I also try to adapt to the circumstances and plan what I feel needs to be planned to make the vacation as relaxing and enjoyable as possible. That explains the increase in planning activity for WDW.

In some locations, I find completely winging it and doing only small amounts of advanced planning works just fine. At others, the number of structured activities that we want to experience is more conducive to advance planning, which allows us to relax while on the trip. For us, WDW falls into the latter. I know that for others it does not, and that's great. Whatever works for you. But if we are going to discuss this stuff beyond just how it relates to ME (not M.E.), we have to understand that moves that hurt other guests are no less important in the big picture just because they didn't hurt ME.

I made that mistake when EE was originally cut. Big deal, I said. Doesn't impact me, and Disney is simply cutting costs, as any other business does.

And really, from my personal vacation pov, it didn't matter, just as it doesn't matter that they brought it back. But beyond that, it most certainly DID matter, and was a mistake Disney paid for, because it WAS important to many other guests, regardless of what Disney origianally thought. More to the point, this was an example of a philosophy, one that involved looking for cuts and ways to increase margins, as opposed to one focused on the product being offered. I now realize that even though every facet of that philosophy may not impact me directly, the philosophy itself eventually takes something that hurts everyone, and is bad for Disney's long term health.

So there. Again.;)

[crusader]

Matt I try to stay with you man I really do and this time I may actually have reached a plateau of realization with respect to where you're coming from. That is if your saying that you are not being subjective in your analysis but simply taking an objective look at the management of the place and focusing on whether or not the trends are posing a negative threat to the future success of the organization as a whole.

Pretty tall order to fill without utilizing personal experience.

True I did digress a bit and intergect some subjective "ME" type analysis but no more than anyone who reflects on their own dealings here so I can't promise that I'll retract anything.

Why? It's been perfectly acceptable and viable for over twenty years, why all of a sudden is it destine for failure?

Two reasons:

1. There are variables beyond your control which disrupt your routine.

2. No two experiences are ever the same no matter how carefully planned and executed your trip is.

If you approach something with this many choices expecting to apply a diehard agenda year after year you're bound to have a negative experience. You begin to develop a level of expectation that has no flexibility.

Wouldn't you agree that later would be better for Disney, even if sooner is a good thing for me?

Absolutely. I'm still not convinced you're going yet but that's ok. For someone who invests so heavily into this entity, it is absolutely understandable that there should be some level of consideration given on the part of the company. They are not doing nearly enough to demonstrate they appreciate your business and your convictions are warranted.

[crusader]

Sooner or later, the lemon aid inventory will run out and all you'll be left with are lemons.

No way. It would be so far down the road if at all. As long as they continue to introduce new attractions, keep the shows fresh, the parks clean and hopefully market the place as being more affordable they will maintain customers.

[YoHo]

Of course there are variables. The point is, after 20+ years of doing buisness fairly consistantly, Disney changed. They introduced new heretofore unseen variables. THAT is Disruptive. THAT is not something I the guest should have just anticipated. WDW has been around for 30 fricken years and from 1972 until approximatly 1998 everything was the fricken same where hours and general scheduling was concerned. Then they change things and I'm supposed to simply expect that? That's just the breaks?

They 26 years of consistant policy out the window and I'm supposed to expect it?

[HB2K]

Originally posted by crusader
No way. It would be so far down the road if at all. As long as they continue to introduce new attractions, keep the shows fresh, the parks clean and hopefully market the place as being more affordable they will maintain customers.
Agreed....but are they doing any of those things in a meaningful manner?

[raidermatt]

Matt I try to stay with you man I really do.. There's one in every crowd!;)

That is if your saying that you are not being subjective in your analysis but simply taking an objective look at the management of the place and focusing on whether or not the trends are posing a negative threat to the future success of the organization as a whole.

Pretty tall order to fill without utilizing personal experience.

Yes, that's pretty much it, and yes, you're right that its pretty much impossible without utilizing personal experience. (It may take me awhile to get my point across, but I am pretty stubborn about it...)

I try to use the personal experience as a tool to judge what is good for customers vs. bad, but it only works if you can put yourself in the other guys shoes. We have to be able to take the leap past what it means to us, and instead look at what it means to others, to what extent and to how many. Its an inexact science, especially without any real data to use in most cases. But we can still identify trends and come up with educated theories.

That's why something like the near elimination of Mickey Head Butter can have virtually no impact on my personal vacation, but I still see it as another link in a bad chain that is being forged by a bad philosophy. And my opinion is it equals bad business for Disney.

[crusader]

YoHo............(and WWFH who prompted this)
Of course there are variables. The point is, after 20+ years of doing buisness fairly consistantly, Disney changed. They introduced new heretofore unseen variables. THAT is Disruptive. THAT is not something I the guest should have just anticipated.

Maybe you aren't expected to anticipate a change in park hours or scheduling because for 20+ years they remained relatively consistent but you cannot approach your vacation thinking your experience should mimic the past.

I am speaking on a personal level here in response to someone's frustration with their trip because things they have come to rely on have changed. Usually once something is received it becomes expected rather than appreciated. Change is a fundamental and invariably happens in so many facets you cannot possibly be so regimented to the point of inflexibility. This approach is destined for failure.

Your looking at it from the opposite spectrum in terms of the company. Your right - they should not be in the business of changing what has become precedent to their base. I am certainly not trying to aid in their defense. It may seem monumental in terms of the direction of the theme parks but we all know it can turn on a dime if the numbers go up.

[Walt's Frozen Head]

Maybe you aren't expected to anticipate a change in park hours or scheduling because for 20+ years they remained relatively consistent but you cannot approach your vacation thinking your experience should mimic the past.


It just doesn't appear that you understand what some of the root issues are.

If we cannot discuss Disney without making our own vacations the benchmarks for everyone else, fine: here's the benchmark I'm talking about.

I am not upset with Disney because the hours are different than they were 30 years ago, I am upset with Disney because within two weeks of arriving for our paid-for vacation, Disney told us that meals for which we had confirmed PSes had been cancelled, park hours at three separate parks had been shortened, and several scheduled showings of parades, fireworks, and Fantasmic had been dropped.

The comparison between the 1970's and the 2000's is between the way Disney treated its customers, it is not a counting game. You will never understand that if you keep wallowing in the examples people mention to illustrate their points, rather than probing the nature of the points, themselves.

Usually once something is received it becomes expected rather than appreciated

You keep leaving out the part where the receiver is paying good money for this. This is not about some people being ungrateful for what they receive from Disney, this is about some people deciding to not give Disney money anymore, for what they have been receiving.

That's what business is all about. I really don't understand what point you are ultimately trying to make. I agree, my expectations of Disney were too high, so I'm not going back, because I want my expectations met when I enter into a business agreement. Heap condescension on my expectations if that's all you can come up with, but that same condescending attitude towards its customers is precisely why Disney is failing.

Those nuts in Car #3 should be heroes to Disney... lifelong fans who aren't buying anymore yet are willing to step up and say why; to explain how to regain their patronage. Respond with "I don't care what you want, you will buy this and you should damn well appreciate and enjoy it" at the peril of your business.

And Disney has.

-WFH
www.jjewell.com

[crusader]

You keep leaving out the part where the receiver is paying good money for this.

Probably because we are not talking about the time disney kept increasing its prices while maintaining the same level of standards. Look back over the arguments which imply the consumer was always willing to pay top buck for this experience because of its uniqueness and "value" in terms of product. Then look back over the pricing strategy for this vacation - right down to the fee for a preferred campsite and you will see how the curtain worked.

Prices kept going up but heck the economy was booming everybody was content and nobody paid very much attention to the subtle change in your drink fee or your occupancy tax or the number of days on a park hopper.

Now, when these little increases have supersaturated themselves you are forced to feel the other side of the equation - cutbacks, setbacks, and takeaways. Welcome to the recession!

[Walt's Frozen Head]

Probably because we are not talking about the time disney kept increasing its prices while maintaining the same level of standards

Perhaps we should talk about that time... that was when Disney could get customers, something they're having a tough time doing employing the strategies you champion.

-WFH
www.jjewell.com

[crusader]

Truth be told I find those strategies deplorable. Wall Street is an extremely unpleasant cesspool of wants and have to haves. I am not condoning this company's behavior by any means. I probably just always approached my visits from a unconditional perspective and missed the significance of the butter.

Perhaps we should talk about that time.

It has extreme relevance to my argument which will hopefully be better understood - point taken.

[Walt's Frozen Head]

I probably just always approached my visits from a unconditional perspective and missed the significance of the butter.


And there's nothing wrong with that; I hope it never seemed as though I was saying that was a bad position for you to take with regard to your own vacation.

Disney is simply suffering deeply from lost customers who do not share your personal approach to vacations and unconditional perspectives.

-WFH
www.jjewell.com

[YoHo]

Actually, IIRC Landbaron first became unhappy in 1998 and I first read negative Disney comments in 1999 back when we were still in a boom economy. Now, there is no doubt that the economy has swollen our numbers, but Disney changed these things before the economy tanked for pure greed and guests started to notice this before as well.

[Douglas Dubh]

Now, there is no doubt that the economy has swollen our numbers, but Disney changed these things before the economy tanked for pure greed and guests started to notice this before as well.
I don't know if it was pure greed. I think Disney was trying to keep up with the rapid incline of the dotcom stocks.

[YoHo]

I have a friend whose father was a broker. He got into Disney in the late 80's, sniffed that Eisner was about to kill the place and sold out right before the stock plunged. In the approximatly ten years he owned the stock it split so many times that it was practically his retirment fund. Disney didn't need to follow the Dot coms ANYWHERE. They were already living that dream. Then ABC loomed up and Eisner remembered that he never really wanted to run theme parks, he wanted to run a T.V.s studio. HEck, those foolish Disney loving slobs will pay for anything anyway, don't need to expand or even do maintainence......

[crusader]

Actually, IIRC Landbaron first became unhappy in 1998 and I first read negative Disney comments in 1999 back when we were still in a boom economy............Disney changed these things before the economy tanked for pure greed

No doubt they saw this as a quick opportunity to free up large sums of cash and make a big play for more market share. The theme parks were not where the company was looking to flex its muscles - Ei$ner was emulating the media moguls not the imagineers.

What's the one cash cow they had that they could drain with full confidence it would quickly replenish itself? Problem was in about 12-18 mos the market took a fatal hit. "No big deal" - no need for exec paycuts or downsizing - "get greenspan's stamp of approval; generate an enormous smokescreen on the airwaves; and wall street will rally behind us so we can continue to reward ourselves."

Enter fatal hit no. 2 in Sept. of the very next year. What we are now faced with is the direct result of a few key plays being destroyed by world economic events. There is no quick recovery from this. Unless corporate leaders are willing to make personal sacrifices the consumer will continue to pay for it all. In a recession that consumer is so price conscious they become more savvy in making purchase decisions. A WDW vacation may be considered a luxury item which they simply cannot afford.

[Mooobooks]

The Armageddon attraction in Paris stinks, plain and simple. It is a hopeless failure.
The stunt show "Motors, Action" is very disappointing. There is a lot of jibber-jabbering from the announcers at the front and uninteresting interaction with the audience, and fewer stunts actually performed than one would hope for. Both attractions would disappoint audiences here if they opened.