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airlarry!
04-08-2003, 08:18 AM
The informational debate going on about the alleged cut-backs to the still un-announced Forbidden Mountain attraction in WDW led me to this question:

With the growing use and additions of FastPass to the park's attractions, has the time for the Disney tradition of long, elaborate, story or back-story driven queues become passe'?

Because of the limited time a fast-pass guests spends in line, is a queue like Pirates or Space or Splash or Tower or Kali unnecessary and something that can be cut out or changed to the Kila Safari-style video presentation? Or is an essential element of the 'story' the pre-show buildup a la Haunted Mansion et al?

jlambrig
04-08-2003, 08:32 AM
Great question. This speaks to the value thread as well. I enjoy a well themed queue and I also enjoy getting on a ride as soon as possible. Each one is a important, but for me distinct, element of value.

If the queue is truly well done and provides an essential background to the story, then I won't be tapping my foot impatiently waiting to board the ride. But I don't believe that a themed queue is essential for every ride.

This attraction does have the all the elements which demand a well themed queue. I would prefer they concentrate on that than how to make it a Fast Pass ride.

Disney may be of the impression that Fast Pass make themed queues passe but I hope not. They remain relevant to me.

DisneyKidds
04-08-2003, 08:54 AM
Show and Story is what distingusihes Disney from the other guys. As such, these elements should not be left out of future Disney attractions. The advent of fastpass does not have to toll the death bell for the elaborate story and themeing that make Disney Disney. It shouldn't be that difficult to design queues that both accomodate fastpass guests AND allow the story to be told. People may move through the queues faster now than they did before fastpass, but the detail should still be there.

KNWVIKING
04-08-2003, 09:00 AM
To me, a line is a line. The biggest enjoyment I get out of queue's at say CoP is the air conditioned relief. With fastpass, you actually zip right past most of the interesting parts of a themed queue. I wouldn't want WDW to "cheap out" on a queue, but if a budget cut has to be made, I'd rather it be in the queue and not the ride.

OnWithTheShow
04-08-2003, 09:01 AM
I think both FastPass and the subsequent reduction in standby wait times could warrant a change from queues to more preshows. Perhaps two or three different segments, themed like a queue would be, but highly entertaining so that guests would not consider it waiting in line. I do not really consider Splash Mountain's queue extensively themed. Frankly I think all the queues worth seeing can still be seen. You can take you time in the FastPass line and see the queue if you want to.

jsginmd
04-08-2003, 09:23 AM
I agree that a themed queue is part of what makes Disney Disney. It also helps you mentally transition from the general park crowds into the attraction. Even with FastPass, passing quickly through the same themed queue area (like WDW Splash Mountain) still aids that transition.

I find that the video monitor presentation queues (besides reminding me of Six Flags) get old really quick. The first time through a ride, I'll watch the loop once, maybe even twice. After that, it gets ignored or even becomes aggravating when the line moves slowly.

IMHO, the Kali queue is beautifully done and I think it is more detailed than the actual ride portion of the attraction (with the exception of the vegetation surrounding the ride). There needs to be a good balance between the queue and the ride.

Just my two cents.

HB2K
04-08-2003, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by KNWVIKING
To me, a line is a line. The biggest enjoyment I get out of queue's at say CoP is the air conditioned relief. With fastpass, you actually zip right past most of the interesting parts of a themed queue. I wouldn't want WDW to "cheap out" on a queue, but if a budget cut has to be made, I'd rather it be in the queue and not the ride.
So instead of having a pirate with two hands you would have rather Walt left the original pirate alone (a hook) and to pay for it, eliminate all queue elements in Pirates? Just one large room you go round and round in waiting to see the hook?

Budget cuts can happen inside a ride and not impact the experince. Budget cuts CANNOT cripple the queue and still tell an effective story over a TV monitor.

KNWVIKING
04-08-2003, 09:56 AM
"So instead of having a pirate with two hands you would have rather Walt left the original pirate alone (a hook) and to pay for it, eliminate all queue elements in Pirates? Just one large room you go round and round in waiting to see the hook?"


Is that what my post meant ?

caveat lector
04-08-2003, 12:21 PM
On the positive side, I still enjoy the wait at test track. OK...so it's not the wait that I enjoy, but all of the visuals. Seeing how things are tested, and all the required tools is very entertaining. It is a well done ride.

All Aboard
04-08-2003, 12:30 PM
Keep the Queue! It's a big part of the experience to me. Doesn't need to be overly elaborate, but certainly not switchbacks and monitors (ala Earthquake, Spaceship Earth, Living with the Land, etc.) Some queues are MAJOR parts of the attraction. Pirates definitely fits the bill, but what about Dueling Dragons - that's an A effort as well.

BRERALEX
04-08-2003, 12:51 PM
I love the queues but they have lost significance wth fastpass.

before when space mountain would use all of the queue before fastaps you needed an elaborate queue but now with fastpass if they are going to make cuts on anything it might as well be the queue.

first time i did SM i did the WHOLE Line THE WHOLE LINE and i have never done it since. So i miss out on the little things but id sacrifice the little things to get right on line.

Fins2TheRight
04-08-2003, 01:08 PM
I agree that they should be kept. Not only do they provide a separation from the rest of the park craziness for the moment, but they provide a storyline, and an oh-so-welcome relief from the Florida sun!

The queues are another part of the experience that separates Disney from a State Fair. I really like to be immersed in the experience, not just hop on and go.

As for the video monitors in the queues, they certainly aren't as cool as some of the others, but they at least divert my attention for awhile.

raidermatt
04-08-2003, 01:56 PM
Themed queues should remain, unless of course Disney wants to increase the length of attractions to accomodate the story... Even then, the themed queues have value to guests.

Standby lines are still significant, particularly for the more popular attractions. With the trend towards fewer overall attractions, if attendance ever does rebound, the lines will get longer.

Also, as a higher percentage of guests learn to use FP, and if more "premium" FPs begin to be distributed, even us "FP Commandos" will find ourselves in more standby lines.

airlarry!
04-08-2003, 03:42 PM
I like Matt's point here.

If a park has relatively short queue lines, the off-the-walk capacity of the park is lessened. This is especially true in cases where any major attraction or section of the park goes down for rehab.

Pirates' combination of long ride, many boats, and long elaborate queue means that many, many less people are crowding the paths and jostling each other, and instead are making the 'short walk through the arches,' where 'longboats are waiting to take you aboard.'

So, with a little bit of foresight, the Company can not only increase a guest's enjoyment of the attraction but also increase his/her enjoyment of the park during the stroll around.

As an aside, I like any queue that doesn't dwell on switchbacks. The line from Space to the door is great, until you hit the immense switchbacks. Of course, the monitor show and the a/c and the cookies and watching the ships fly make up for the switchbacks. Star Tours and Tower are two of my favorites...not much in the way of switchbacks, and always something to look at.

Testtrack321
04-08-2003, 05:13 PM
I think that Disney will find a new way to spread the story of the ride not through the que but outside the attraction waiting area and all around you. I think lines will become a thing of the past, but think of a ride like Test Track and instead of seeing all that stuff in the line walking past it as you enter the building. I also see the 'lock in rooms' becomming more used. They allow for even flow of guests to the platform and feeds a good amount of story in a small and very important amount of time.

Panthius
04-08-2003, 11:15 PM
On the positive side, I still enjoy the wait at test track. OK...so it's not the wait that I enjoy, but all of the visuals. Seeing how things are tested, and all the required tools is very entertaining. It is a well done ride.

Test track is a very interesting attraction for my wife and I. I had read here about Test Track being a great attraction, but my first experience with Test Track was less than great. My wife and I had gotten to Epcot early in the morning, and we had enterred through a "side" door almost directly to the video presentation room. There was no queue for us to wait in, so we didn't see any of the automobile tests that are in the queue area. When my wife and I got off the ride, we both felt that it was not that great.

When my wife and I had gone back recently, we decided to hit Test track again, but this time, we got the queue treatment. it was very interesting seeing all the tests. We actually had wanted Fast Passes so we could see everything there was to see in the queue line of the attraction. When we got to the video room, we were definitely more into the attraction and had a better feel of what our purpose on the attraction was by that point. When we had goten off the attraction this time, we had throughly enjoyed ourselves and could then understand why some may consider the ride a great ride.

With the queue, this attraction to me became so much more interesting and enjoyable than without the queue. It is difficult to describe, but with the queue, this attraction became more of an attraction rather than a ride.

Panthius

BRERALEX
04-09-2003, 09:29 AM
people used to call me crazy when i used to tell them i love the parks PACKED!!!! the reason was i noticed most of my memories were from being on line with my father and brother and talking and taking in the scenery.

With fast pass The queue significance is gone. I dont do certain attractions with long lines, i just wont do standby if its long and im sure other people wont either.

its a double edged sword for me. i cant win. cause i do love the theming of the queue but rather wait for pirates to have no line hen waste a half hour waiting. I wont even do jungle cruise if the line is 30 min.

PatriciaH
04-09-2003, 01:49 PM
I love the queues and even if we are fast passing I still stop to take in the details and even take pictures! It is easier in some queues like Pirates than tighter ones like Splash Mountain but no one seems to mind when we say "go ahead-pass us." You can still enjoy the details while using Fast Pass or on E-ticket nights. My favorites are: Pirates, TOT, TT (they need to work on the leakey ceiling though), Dinousaur, Tough to Be a Bug, Kali, KS, Star Tours and Jungle Cruise. I also love the pre-shows at HM, Muppets, and TOT.

All Aboard
04-09-2003, 02:44 PM
Scoop, to me preshows only really work when the subject of the attraction "works" well with a preshow. At Test Track, Dinosaur, and Alien Encounter (for examples) you are a guest at a working facility. You've come there for a tour of it. So, during the preshow, your hosts tell you what it is that you are about to experience. Just the way a real, live person were to do if this were a real experience, rather than a theme park version. So, in these cases, I think it works perfectly. Even in these cases, the queue also features fairly extensive theming. I would expect this to be exactly what we get at Mission:Space - a queing area filled with "space stuff" and a preshow "briefing" room. That's the best combination, I'd bet.

However, for other attractions (that are more fantasy, than reality based) it is much better to tell the backstory (or set the mood) with a queue. It would really stink if Pirates had a preshow, or Splash or Space. Off Disney, if Dueling Dragons had a bland room in which you watched a video before boarding the coaster, the entire experience would be drastically reduced.

An attraction as Forbidden Yeti Everest Mountain is described seems to be perfectly suited (and best executed) with a long, winding, elaborate queue that sets the stage for what you about to experience. You're in the Himalyas for crying out loud, there's no video monitors there!!

DisneyKidds
04-09-2003, 02:58 PM
You're in the Himalyas for crying out loud, there's no video monitors there!!
I agree.

Might I add that that was quite a Baroesque statement, exclamation points and all. Now all you need are some caps and color and Baron will have you skitching on his bumper ;).

YoHo
04-09-2003, 03:15 PM
Another problem with Preshow is that the nature of the ride's loading pattern comes into play. For example, A ride like pirates which is constantly loading would be a bad place for a preshow.

HM actually is hit or miss with that preshow, but it gives you a chance to get out of the light without taking up a lot of space. In it's case, the preshow and the themeing of the line combine very well.


As far as Forbidden mountain is concerned. A preshow would probably have limited utility as coaster trainset will be arriving fairly regularly.

jsginmd
04-09-2003, 03:30 PM
Hardly any of Fantasyland has such a queue, yet much of Fantasyland is considered "classic".

Most Fantasyland attractions are based on well-known Disney animated movies and don't necessarily need to tell a lot of backstory. Although I think the attractions would be well-served by the atmosphere-setting transition that a themed queue provides. My experience is limited to WDW, so perhaps DL does a better job at this.

I do agree that preshows are more effective at providing specific information about the attraction as long as a direct preshow fits the overall attraction (ex. Test Track, Dinosaur, etc.). I've seen a lot of discussions on this board on the topic of "Show" vs. "Efficiency" though.... ;)

I have to disagree on the effectiveness of preshows regulating guest flow. In many attractions, you start in a line, enter the preshow area, then enter the final line before boarding (ex. Test Track, Dinosaur, RnR, TOT, etc.). Essentially, you're always in line, but the preshow area gives guests the opportunity to jockey for a better spot in line upon exiting the preshow area (c'mon, you know you've headed directly for the exit side of the preshow area :eek: ).

I guess it comes down to what purpose the queue/preshow is trying to serve. Themed queues help set atmosphere better than preshows, but the preshows convey information much more effectively (see TOT for a great example of both). But each has to fit the overall attraction.

Scoop, didn't mean to pick on your post. :)

YoHo, Test Track loads continuously like POTC does, but one has a preshow and the other doesn't. In TT, the preshow fits, in POTC, it doesn't. But both set atmosphere properly. I never thought of the stretching room in HM as a "preshow", but it does get you in the right frame-of-mind for what comes next.

YoHo
04-09-2003, 03:51 PM
I don't think you can quantify what makes something a classic. Disneyland does do a slightly better job in my mind of setting up the mood, but its still just a bunch of switchbacks in fantasyland. of course, Disneyland pioneered the switchback so in some ways that makes it classic. It also depends on the nature of the attraction. in terms of say Small World, the entire building (in DIsneyland, the interior queue in WDW) is themed very ornatly and extravagantly. Nothing more need be said.


I myself am a fan of preshows like The Great movie ride or Indiana Jones and the temple of the forbidden eye where the switchbacks snake in front of a movie screen.

Part of the beauty of the switchback is the sense of constant progress. Preshows CAN eliminate some of that.



Still, all in all, in some ways this discussion is meaningless, Preshows and themed queues are tools. the Magic is in choosing the right one for the situation. Not having it dictated by cost.