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HB2K
04-02-2003, 07:00 AM
check out JimHillMedia for the latest news of the sharp tipped pencil boys (even identified by name!) ALREADY starting to chip away at plans for the golden goose of DAK (Mission:Everest).

The freakin ride hasn't even been offically announced, and they're cutting BASIC (not blue sky) show elements.

If this cutting continues through out the attraction (and we know it will), looks like DAK will be in for some more struggles.

daber
04-02-2003, 08:59 AM
How about one cardboard Yeti and a spinning car and call it Everest Whirl?

DisneyKidds
04-02-2003, 09:21 AM
Yes, it starts already. However, is it the cutting of the attraction by inept management who doesn't get it that has started, or the very likely unnecessary and unfounded bashing of Disney in how this ride is progressing :confused:.

Time for the old 'I'll wait until I see it' speech. Frankly, none of us has a clue where this attraction started, where it stands now, and where it will end up - even Jim Hill Media. Heck, just a few weeks ago most of car 3 was absolutely positive that the attraction wasn't even going to happen :crazy:. This has been cut, that will be cut, blah, blah, blah. However, are we talking things that were on the wish list, things that were never realistically going to be, things that were cut yesterday or last year............................? I'll bet you dollars to donuts that you could go back to the years before Pirates was opened and someone could have written very similar articles. Of course there weren't internet bulletin boards and Disney media outlets to do the bashing.

No, before I start bashing this addition I'll wait until I actually see something...............

HB2K
04-02-2003, 11:17 AM
Yes, it starts already. However, is it the cutting of the attraction by inept management who doesn't get it that has started, or the very likely unnecessary and unfounded bashing of Disney in how this ride is progressing
You're too much kidds.... :)

I don't know about you, but one of the things (IMHO) that sets a DISNEY attraction apart from the current Six Flags attractions is the show.

Part of that show is act 1....or the queue line if you will. If Disney resorts to making a standard queue line with a few TV Screens overhead telling you the story, what kind of show is that?

Imagine winding around in the same room for an hour in Space Mountain looking up and seeing the SAME video on loop....what kind of show is that?

This isn't blue sky stuff we're talking about....it's a vital part of the overall ride & show. That's what's starting...the cutting of VITAL portions of this attraction before it's even announced.

That is tragic.

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that you could go back to the years before Pirates was opened and someone could have written very similar articles.
Kidds....how can I put this....but....

WRONG.

Disney did NOT release Pirates to the public without first BLOWING the whole thing up and starting from scratch because he didn't like the show.

Did you know Pirates was supposed to be a walk through attraction?

No, before I start bashing this addition I'll wait until I actually see something...............
That's good for you, but unfortunatly Disney is counting on Mission:Everest to be Animal Kingdom's savior. Disney has worn away so much good will that I'd be willing to bet a LOT of people will not flock to the park to see the good ride if the pre-opening word of mouth is not good. People are going to make Disney prove to them that They (the guests) should return to DAK....case in point is DinoRama. People have not flocked back to DAK to see Disney's latest offering.

Pirates wasn't in that situation. Even if some of the critics didn't like Pirates, most consumers would have probably given it a try due to the good will behind the Disney name. Once in, they could have made that decision for themselves.

Now that Disney has Ba$tardized that good will, the company will RELY on these reports to generate foot traffic.

WEDWAY100
04-02-2003, 12:17 PM
H2BK,

Sometimes I am think I am ready to ride shotgun in car 4 with you. But I can see Mr. Kidds’ point on this one. I read an article once about a cut that Walt made to Pirates. That was after the walk-through had been re-worked into the boat ride. Walt did make cuts to the attractions before they opened, for the same reason the current guys do – to save money.

IMO, the difference is that Walt had a very keen sense of what to cut. He understood what would damage the show, and by contrast, what was inconsequential. I think that’s what the current management team is missing. They don’t have a sense of what to cut or when to stop. For Everest, I’ll wait and see, just like M:S before I decide if I think the attraction represents a good effort by Disney.

DisneyKidds
04-02-2003, 12:47 PM
I don't know about you, but one of the things (IMHO) that sets a DISNEY attraction apart from the current Six Flags attractions is the show.
Agreed.
If Disney resorts to making a standard queue line with a few TV Screens overhead telling you the story, what kind of show is that?
Not much. However, let's play a little game called 'find the key word'. Know what it is? If! If Disney does that i will be disappointed. However, an article by JHM does not give me conclusive evidence that this will be the case. You guessed it, I'll have to see more before I set my opinion on this one.
That is tragic.
Agreed..............if that is what happens. We don' know that right now, do we?
WRONG.
Saying it in caps does not mean you are right about that. As WED points out, decisions to cut things, for many reasons, date back to the beginning.
Disney has worn away so much good will that I'd be willing to bet a LOT of people will not flock to the park to see the good ride if the pre-opening word of mouth is not good.
That is what is tragic. You see, it is very unlikely that Disney will get good word of mouth for the very reason we see in M:S and Everest. The outlets for generating this word of mouth are more prone to criticize than praise. Yes, that is largely a function of the actions of Disney in the recent past, but you can't use those actions to bash everything, including things we have no real info on as of yet.

Another Voice
04-02-2003, 12:52 PM
"That was after the walk-through had been re-worked into the boat ride. Walt did make cuts to the attractions before they opened, for the same reason the current guys do – to save money."

That really would have made the ride magical - Walt had already passed away long before there was anything "to walk around" through.

The truth is that construction had already started on a walk-thourgh exhibit (designed like a wax museum in New Orleans), but after the experience with the World's Fair Walt decided Disney had learned so much it was time to stretch thier creative talents again. He ordered the concrete ripped out and the boat attraction designed.

I've been spotting a recent trend where false information, if not outright lies, about past projects are being spread. They all have a common theme - we're no different today then Walt was yesterday. It's rather pathetic that the only way current designers (and their spokesorcs) can have any pride in their work is to debase the creations of others.

It will be fun reading all the Matterhorn bashing that will surround Animal Kingdom's new decorated rollercoaster.

raidermatt
04-02-2003, 12:54 PM
If its unfair to comment on the negative rumors circulating about this attraction, isn't it also unfair to point to this attraction as ANY kind of evidence that Disney is showing ANY signs of improvement?

Why is it that when Eisner made his "slip" at the Annual Meeting, Baron is called out over saying previously that the wonderful attraction we heard about won't be built?

If no judgement can be made on the negative rumors, then any judgement made about how "great" this attraction is supposed to be is invalid as well.

raidermatt
04-02-2003, 01:01 PM
You see, it is very unlikely that Disney will get good word of mouth for the very reason we see in M:S and Everest. The outlets for generating this word of mouth are more prone to criticize than praise. Yes, that is largely a function of the actions of Disney in the recent past, but you can't use those actions to bash everything, including things we have no real info on as of yet. You can preach from the soapbox all you want, but people ARE going to base their expectations on what they have seen you do in the past, with the most recent products having the most weight.

Fact of life, and fact of business.

Due to Disney's recent track record, expectations are largely going to be for "crud", and bashing will be rampant, until Disney starts producing what its customers want.

Now, if the attraction really is going to be crud, it really doesn't matter what is put out in advance, because expectations will be low, and they will be fulfilled.

If the attraction truly does signify a "return to greatness", then it would behoove Disney to let that info out early, to try to raise expectations for and interest in the wonderful product forthcoming.

WEDWAY100
04-02-2003, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Another Voice
"That was after the walk-through had been re-worked into the boat ride. Walt did make cuts to the attractions before they opened, for the same reason the current guys do – to save money."

That really would have made the ride magical - Walt had already passed away long before there was anything "to walk around" through.

AV,

First the facts, as I understand them. Walt died on Dec 15, 1966. The ride opened in spring of 1967. That means that construction was well underway before Walt’s final days at the office. He certainly had time to exercise decisions over the boat version of the attraction before he passed. It was not impossible, as you suggest.

The specific cut I was referring to was in the “well dunking” scene. The animatronic pirate character next to the well was originally drawn with one hand as a hook and the other with a sword. The article reported that Walt had ordered that he have one hand on the well, and the other with a sword (the character would be leaning against the well). He made the decision (according to the article) because he felt it was cheaper to animate the character that way. With one hand on the well, less mechanics and design were needed for movement. At this time, the character does have a sword and a hook. I do not know if it was originally installed that way, or added on a subsequent re-hab after opening. I do believe that the article included a second drawing, with the hand on the well.

Another article that was an interview with Marc Davis discussed the opposite. Marc tried to get Walt to go cheaper on the auctioneer character, because he felt that people would pass by the character too quickly to notice all of the intricate movements. On this occasion, Walt wanted the more extensive movement because he felt that people would ride over and over, and notice new things.

Point number 1 is that Walt did make decisions regarding expenses on Pirates. Marc Davis’ interview proves that. I will have to dig up the article on the “well pirate” to see who was quoted for that information.

Point number 2 is that if the “well pirate” and “auctioneer” stories are accurate, they demonstrate Walt’s judgement with regards to money spent versus show. His judgement was very solid, as the ride has held up for years. But he did make cuts. He also made additions. My original post was to show that just because cuts are being made, that they won’t necessarily ruin the show. For that we will have to wait and see. But I do not believe that current management has the same judgement (or goals) that Walt had.

DisneyKidds
04-02-2003, 03:00 PM
They all have a common theme - we're no different today then Walt was yesterday.
I didn't, and wouldn't, say that. Disney today is different than Walt was yesterday. However, that doesn't mitigate the fact that decisions get made all the time, as they were in the past even for Walt, to do or not do things for a variety of reasons. What kind of things are they deciding not to do with Everest? I have no idea, and neither does anyone else.
If no judgement can be made on the negative rumors, then any judgement made about how "great" this attraction is supposed to be is invalid as well.
Agreed. We have no idea either way. I don't profess that this will be the next great attraction. The only thing I can say is that, good or bad, it will be a major addition for the AK.
Due to Disney's recent track record, expectations are largely going to be for "crud", and bashing will be rampant, until Disney starts producing what its customers want.
Once again, I agree. They have to start producing something customers want sooner or later, I hope they start here - but I have no idea right now. I agree with you on the 'facts of business'. That doesn't mean that early specualtion such as this is not a waste of time. However, we have to have something to talk about.
Eisner slips and the "positive" folks jump all over it as proof for them.
Not too many people on what you might consider my side of this argument so let me clarify. I have not jumped all over this as proof of anything other than the apparent fact that Disney is adding an attraction at the AK. At this time it means nothing else, either good or bad. As such, I say we should wait until we actually know something before we jump all over it as anything.

airlarry!
04-02-2003, 03:09 PM
M. Scoop:

This *is* the rumors board right? This *is* the place where we debate the truth and veracity of the internet gossip all of us mull over with steaming cups of Community coffee and boudin, correct? :) :)

I love this kind of talk. In fact, what I am amazed is that anyone could paint Jim Hill's article as 'negative' when he tip-toes around (no offense intended, Jim) the new Pooh exhibit. Baron talks about class warfare among resorts? Try the three different levels of Poohness that exists at the various parks. The Grand Poohridian at Tokyo Disneyland, Dixie Poohlings (the moderate version) at WDW, and the Pooh(ped) Century version of the attraction at DL. And Jim goes out of his way not to label the DL version a stinker, nor does he do anything but pooh-pooh the idea of cutting out an elaborate queue area--and rather nicely and deftly done, I might add.

Whether you agree or not that the Pooh ride at DL is a stinker, you just can't argue with the fact that it is far, far inferior to what they have at DL. My family loves the Pooh ride at WDW; but we've never done the Tokyo version. And if they tried to build this Pooh ride today at WDW, I would still love it. But I would still be upset that they didn't give us the Tokyo version.

Same goes for the Rock 'n Yeti Coaster. Come on, Mike. Wow us. Amaze us. Make an E*ticket that shuts up the critics. Make it an adventure just to get up the darn thing, so if Grandma bails out because it is too terifying, she can at least participate in going up the mountain.


I feel better now. ;)

Another Voice
04-02-2003, 03:16 PM
You know, hype plays an important role in entertainment. Unlike food, clothing, shelter, no one needs entertainment.

A company has to make an audience want to see their offerings. They have to convince people to spend their hard earned money on these trifles. A company has to get people excited about what's coming so the public rushes to see the new spectacle.

That's why you have movie trailers for films that won't be released for a year. That's why Walt Disney created a television show to hype his upcoming park for a full year before it opened. That's why he filmed a spot where he walked everyone through the model for the 'Pirates' ride before construction began*. That's why the last thing he ever filmed was to hype WDW five years before it would even open. That's why the first thing they built in Florida was the Preview Center to show off all the drawings, plans, concepts, designs, sketches of the project that hadn't even started yet. That's why the first element of EPCOT Center to open was the monorail loop from the TTC so people could view the construction in progress.

But now

We're told nothing, to shut-up, think only happy thoughts and accept whatever they decided to offer when the puffy billboard is unveiled alongside I-4.

That's because any sense of Disney's creativity confidence has been driven out of the company.

If they don't even have the belief that what they're making is good, how in hell is Joe Smith from Ohio supposed to think it's any good. If people are saying nasty things, then prove them wrong. Better yet, get out and control the message. Disney prides itself on its ability to "manage the brand" but they whimper like wet kittens because of what 13 year olds type on the Internet. Silly.

Hiding, sneaking, demanding silence is nothing but cowardice.



* and before he so utterly destroyed the entire attraction through mindless cost cutting by removing a pirate's hand – although it could just as easily have been to make the pirate captain look more like a pirate.

All Aboard
04-02-2003, 03:22 PM
Scoop, I'm very optimistic about this attraction. Right now it sits as a HUGE opportunity for Disney to flex its creative muscle and produce an E-ticket attraction that will get noticed in a way that Spider-man did. WDW really needs that right now. It needs to boost attendance at AK, and it seems the only way it can do that is by adding a super headlining attraction that will get the attention of the Travel Channel, et al. I'm hopeful that the decision tree is aware of this. I am hopeful that they will respond. I am hopeful that this attraction mixes a stunning queue with a great story line and a fantastic execution of the ride itself. We know it's likely a roller coaster. I want it to seem like it's not a roller coaster. Rather a cog train climbing the mountain. I want it to do something different. I want it to slow down, maybe even stop at some point. I want a significant portion of it indoors. I want detailed show elements all troughout.

I want a Tower, Indy or Splash. I don't want another Dinosaur.

I know today's Disney is capable. I am hopeful that they are willing.

WEDWAY100
04-02-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Another Voice
* and before he so utterly destroyed the entire attraction through mindless cost cutting by removing a pirate's hand – although it could just as easily have been to make the pirate captain look more like a pirate.
I’m glad that you seem to now agree with me that Walt made financial decisions that influenced the final version of Pirates.

My only point here (and it’s a technical one) is that cost has always been a consideration when designing and building attractions. A cut in one portion of the attraction does not necessarily have to doom the attraction to failure. That said, current management does not have a good track record with these types of decisions. So while the news does sound bad, I’m not 100% sure that it will be that bad. OK, maybe 95%, but not 100%.

meowthew2
04-02-2003, 08:16 PM
As a very wise person on another board has pointed out, Jim Hill's argument is illogical at best, and here's why.

From the article's description of the queue as "originally planned":

"...guests...were supposed to wander through a recreation of a base camp in the foothills in the Himalayas. As they move past the assorted work tables, crates and tents that are scattered around the campsite, these Animal Kingdom visitors will learn all about this dedicated group of scientists..."

Think about it a second -- work tables, crates and tents. Scattering around used junk items like that is not expensive.

Now think about the cost of producing a pre-show film for overhead TVs. It would be MUCH more expensive to make than a queue full of junk.

I count this as more half-baked sensationalism from Jim Hill.

HB2K
04-02-2003, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by WEDWAY100
I’m glad that you seem to now agree with me that Walt made financial decisions that influenced the final version of Pirates.

My only point here (and it’s a technical one) is that cost has always been a consideration when designing and building attractions. A cut in one portion of the attraction does not necessarily have to doom the attraction to failure. That said, current management does not have a good track record with these types of decisions. So while the news does sound bad, I’m not 100% sure that it will be that bad. OK, maybe 95%, but not 100%.

Cuts happen. It's a part of life. But the cuts should be from the blue sky proposal which is a dream of EVERYTHING an imagineer could think of to put in the attraction.

A minor tweak to a pirate's hand is NOTHING compared to eliminating a themed, story telling queue for being shepherded back and forth in the same room while a cheaply produced video blares Over, and over, and over on a batch of 27" televisions mounted to the ceiling.

And another point that shows Walt's genius...

He knew where to make the cuts. Noone is going to remember whether one of the pirates has a hook or a hand. He knew that and chose that area to make his "cost savings".

The current management thinks their customers are idiots who will take whatever is given to them...so they make their cost savings without any thought. They just sort the cost column of their spreadsheet and whatever comes up first gets the axe.

raidermatt
04-02-2003, 08:31 PM
Now think about the cost of producing a pre-show film for overhead TVs. It would be MUCH more expensive to make than a queue full of junk.
I suspect WDI is capable of more than just a "queue full of junk". At least they have been when given the chance with other queues.

Sarangel
04-03-2003, 11:28 AM
I don't suppose that it's worth pointing out that Imagineering has made both possibilities work in previous rides.

Re: Junk Scattered around. Stop and think about the jungle boat queue....

Re: People stuck going back & forth in a dark room with the same old video clip running in the background. How many of you have been on the Indiana Jones ride in DL? With the fast pass, you now miss most of it, but it used to be one of the better parts of the queue.

Sarangel

morphi
04-03-2003, 11:40 AM
I don't suppose that it's worth pointing out that Imagineering has made both possibilities work in previous rides. Also, the Kali queue winds through "junk" and ToT utilizes TVs. In ToT the TVs are a small part of the queue, but are the primary way the back-story is told.

All Aboard
04-03-2003, 11:54 AM
Safaris use some of both.

morphi
04-03-2003, 12:40 PM
I didn't want my last post to imply I am in favor of using TVs to tell the back-story for Everest. In ToT the TV works because the Twilight Zone was an old TV show and having the back-story told as a story within the context of that show made the TV appropriate. But how can a TV be made appropriate 20,000 feet up in a base camp? It seems the TV would take you out of the story because the TV technology doesn't "fit" the story.

HB2K
04-03-2003, 02:22 PM
Also, the Kali queue winds through "junk" and ToT utilizes TVs. In ToT the TVs are a small part of the queue, but are the primary way the back-story is told.
I don't mind the use of TV's. Not everything has to be live action acted out in front of me. But the key word to your statement is PART.

The TV's in TOT are a small PART of a themed, story telling queue. They are not the queue themselves.

YoHo
04-03-2003, 02:37 PM
The "T.V." In the Indiana Jones Queue is a movie, or is supposed to represent a movie and slide show. It isn't a Magnovox on a pole. That effect could work in this ride well.


Just an aside, Recently, I went through the Pirates exhibit at Disneyland and the one cut I noticed were the female pirates. There was a scene sketched out that involved two drunk female pirates. When this was cut I don't know, but it is far more singificant in my mind then a hand for a hook.