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wtg2000
03-31-2003, 02:17 PM
I've noticed over the years how similar style attractions pop up at Disney and Universal around the same time. For example, each has flight simulators, 4-D movies, shooters (Buzz/Black) and moving vehicles that do all sorts of things (Indy/Spidey).

What I'm leading to is do you think that Disney Imagineers had the ability to make a Spiderman all along? It's a fanstastic ride and very well executed but I'm wondering if the cleverness lies in the technology or in the combination of technologies. I don't know exactly how it works, but it seems to me it's an Indy Jones type ride system combined with 3-D screens and other effects. Maybe there's more to it.

Anyway, years ago when trying to dream up news rides we'd like to see at Disney I suggested a car that runs along a roller coaster track and has the scenes projected on the inside of the windshield and side windows- essentially a travelling flight simulator. Thus, I would imagine that someone at Imagineering thought up an idea similar to Spiderman but got beaten to the punch. Do you think Disney would come out with a smililar ride technology-wise or is it something Universal would patent, or would Disney not want to admit they were beaten to the punch?

HB2K
03-31-2003, 02:46 PM
Anyway, years ago when trying to dream up news rides we'd like to see at Disney I suggested a car that runs along a roller coaster track and has the scenes projected on the inside of the windshield and side windows- essentially a travelling flight simulator. Thus, I would imagine that someone at Imagineering thought up an idea similar to Spiderman but got beaten to the punch. Do you think Disney would come out with a smililar ride technology-wise or is it something Universal would patent, or would Disney not want to admit they were beaten to the punch?
It was drempt up by Imagineers. They just were laid off and went to work for Universal.

I think Disney has about as much a chance of getting something like this off the flatboard and into their parks as the carosel of progress has of opening full time again.

It ain't going to happen.

A ride like spidey is very intricate and VERY custom work...i.e. you can't just go buy one from the Premier Rides Catalog. Disney seems very UN-inclined to make these kinds of R&D investments anymore.

Here's an idea as well....have any of the imagineers thought about forming their own company (ala the creators of Lilo & Stitch)?

bbchurch
04-06-2003, 05:10 PM
Don't forget that Spiderman took well over $100 million to build. I seriously doubt that Disney would be willing to put that kind of money into a single attration that everyone would say was a copycat of Universal.

HauntedMansionFan
04-06-2003, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by HB2K
It was drempt up by Imagineers. They just were laid off and went to work for Universal.
Actually that is a common mis-conception. The only ride that the laid off Imagineers took to Universal was Dueling Dragons which was originally supposed to go into Animal Kingdom.

pheneix
04-06-2003, 06:55 PM
The Spiderman scoop is a patented ride system from Universal Creative. Some Landmark Entertainment people actually conceptualized the ride system, but Universal Creative actually produced the ride system.

While the scoop is a moving simulator in the vein of the EMV, how it goes about making those movements is entirely different. Remember that the scoop has the ability to spin 360 degrees on an axis, something that the EMV lacks.

But while we're on the subject, a growing number of people from Imagineering are defecting to Universal Creative. In all honesty, if they ever want to use their imagination and create unique experiences for the 21st century Universal is rapidly becoming the only game in town.

HauntedMansionFan
04-06-2003, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by pheneix
But while we're on the subject, a growing number of people from Imagineering are defecting to Universal Creative. In all honesty, if they ever want to use their imagination and create unique experiences for the 21st century Universal is rapidly becoming the only game in town. I'll give you that much.

I read a book about a year back, the name escapes me. "Behind The Magic, Downfall of the Mouse" I think was the name, but I think I might be waaaaaay off. It talks about the shift of imagineers from Disney to Universal around the time that Animal Kingdom was on the drawing boards. It goes into detail about the ideas for Dueling Dragons and other things that were brought over to Universal Creative. Quite an interesting read, I will have to double check on the title.

Bob O
04-06-2003, 10:04 PM
I do think disney could create a ride as good as Spiderman if they had the will to do so. But now they are much more concerned with money then creating anything unqiue for their theme parks that they have to pay for!!!
So they willjust rest on their laurels and let others create unique theme park attractions, of course they will throw us a spining ride or a cloned cosaster every now and then to try and be relevant.

OnWithTheShow
04-06-2003, 11:01 PM
Frankly as much as I love Spiderman I think Indy is a much better attraction. The 3D effects are nice but I prefer the realism of Indy.

Peter Pirate
04-06-2003, 11:04 PM
My daughter (13 year old) agrees with you Show. So not everyone thinks Spidey is the epitome. She thinks they're very close but prefers Indy by a smidge...

YoHo
04-07-2003, 12:42 AM
Indy has an atvantage, because it's based on real people from the beginning. Spidey is a comicbook character only recently made a live action film. Plus, the dangers presented in Indy are realistic in a bizarre sort of way.

Dznefreek
04-07-2003, 05:43 PM
Indy has an atvantage, because it's based on real people from the beginning Uh, I hate to tell you but he is a character created by George Lucas.

YoHo
04-07-2003, 06:30 PM
I'm going to assume that you are just needling me to be funny, but I'll explain for the others who maybe don't get what I'm saying.

Indiana Jones from initial conception was played by a live human being, specifically Harison Ford. Spiderman started out as a comic book character, and was only later played by a human actor (multiple human actors, but none the less, its primary association is in comicbook form.) The fact that Indy is from the beginning a live person makes it easier to suspend reality on the ride. Thus, Indiana Jones has an advantage.

#1MMFan
04-07-2003, 08:14 PM
In case you hadn't noticed, *some* of Disney's money has probably gone to creating Disney's Calfornia Adventure, the Walt Disney Studios, Tokyo Disney Sea and the future Hong Kong Disneyland.

I wouldn't knock the fact that they haven't spent more money on unique rides. What about Mission: Space, Test Track, Rock'n'roller, a revamp of Tower of Terror and a potentially more elaborate version in DCA, the future E-ticket attaction just announced on WDWMagic for Animal Kingdom.

I think it'll take a while before Universal comes close to Disney. You can't do that much without the land either, somewhere you'll plateau off.

Also, I agree with one of the previous posters; Universal CMs are WAY behind Disney. I always get the feeling Universal is simply out to make money, but regardless of the actual truth I never feel that at Disney.

JMHO

#1MMFan :bounce:

YoHo
04-07-2003, 08:19 PM
but regardless of the actual truth I never feel that at Disney.



Give it some time.

Bob O
04-07-2003, 10:23 PM
Their is nothing unique at all about RNRC, its a clone of a similiar coaster that vekoma built for Six Flags parks. The only thing different is that it is inside az biulding which again is nothing new, now Dueling Dragons was a first, inverted racing coasters and so was the Hulk due to its unique launch system for the ride.
And if what i read is true isnt the version in DCA of TOT a more dumb-downed version and not a new and improved version of TOT???

HauntedMansionFan
04-08-2003, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by Bob O
now Dueling Dragons was a first, inverted racing coasters and so was the Hulk due to its unique launch system for the ride.
Both are one trick ponies. After the launch on Hulk it is your standard coaster found at any Six Flags, same with Dueling Dragons, besides the elaborately themed que line and the "duel", it is another off the shelf Six Flags coaster. And no, Dueling Dragons weren't the first actual "dueling" coasters as Universal would like you to believe.

Universal CMs are WAY behind Disney Amen to that, learn to smile and look interested when asked a question for goodness sakes!

And if what i read is true isnt the version in DCA of TOT a more dumb-downed version and not a new and improved version of TOT??? I wouldn't say dumbed down, just different. They are removing the 5th dimention area and replacing that with a new disappearing special effect in the drop shaft. But compare either version of TOT to what Universal has: Dr. Doom? :rolleyes: Oh boy an off the shelf launch ride that only hits 150 feet, a few feet taller then TOT, but WAY smaller then anything at a Six Flags park.

Their is nothing unique at all about RNRC, its a clone of a similiar coaster that vekoma built for Six Flags parks. While we are on the subject, Superman: The Ride is a clone of RNRC, not the other way around. Imagineering worked closely with Vekoma on the layout, car design, and launching techniques.

pheneix
04-08-2003, 04:23 PM
>>>While we are on the subject, Superman: The Ride is a clone of RNRC<<<

No, its not. RnRC is a standard catalog coaster that Imagineering "dressed up like a Christmas tree," as AV likes to put it.

And it is a total shame that Burbank would not allow Disney to work with a better company, because Vekoma is total trash.

space42
04-08-2003, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by pheneix
>>>While we are on the subject, Superman: The Ride is a clone of RNRC<<<

No, its not. RnRC is a standard catalog coaster that Imagineering "dressed up like a Christmas tree," as AV likes to put it.

And it is a total shame that Burbank would not allow Disney to work with a better company, because Vekoma is total trash.


Even with these 'problems', *I* still feel RnRC is a better *attraction* than any of the IOA coasters. They may have bought better coasters but there was no attempt the theme them other than the queue.

EUROPA
04-08-2003, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan
Both are one trick ponies. After the launch on Hulk it is your standard coaster found at any Six Flags, same with Dueling Dragons, besides the elaborately themed que line and the "duel", it is another off the shelf Six Flags coaster. And no, Dueling Dragons weren't the first actual "dueling" coasters as Universal would like you to believe.



Bet you can't find one coaster with the same layout as the Hulk. Go ahead check every Six Flags out there.

Dueling Dragons was the first " Dueling Inverted Coaster" Go ahead check every Six Falgs out there again. try to find the same layout as Dueling Dragons.


See that is the difference. With the Disney Coasters you can find the exact same ride, layout and launch at Six Flags. You can't do that with Hulk or DD. With Disney you get a nice big building around it with neon signs. :bounce:

HauntedMansionFan
04-08-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by pheneix
No, its not. RnRC is a standard catalog coaster that Imagineering "dressed up like a Christmas tree," as AV likes to put it. A "standard" that will still the first in its class for Vekoma and made its debut at MGM Studios.

And it is a total shame that Burbank would not allow Disney to work with a better company, because Vekoma is total trash. Total trash? Wow... who would have thought that Space Mountain at DLP was total trash. I hope that Vekoma's new work on Space Mountain at Hong Kong Disneyland doesn't suffer the same fate. :rolleyes:

As far as I'm concerned, Vekoma along with Arrow have always been leaders in roller coaster design and technology.

HauntedMansionFan
04-08-2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by EUROPA
Bet you can't find one coaster with the same layout as the Hulk. Go ahead check every Six Flags out there.
After the launch it is just like almost every other B&M coaster out there, giant loop, cobra rolls, corkscrews, smaller loop, helix..... etc.... the same with Dueling Dragons, you take away the other dragon and you have "Batman: The Ride" just like at almost every Six Flags park.

With Disney you get a nice big building around it with neon signs. I guess I missed the neon signs on Space Mountain, BTMRR, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Peril...... perhaps you could point them out to me.

Dznefreek
04-08-2003, 06:19 PM
When you get down to it Disney has invented very few ride technologies. They just took what was available and either improved it or themed to it.

pheneix
04-08-2003, 07:37 PM
>>>They may have bought better coasters but there was no attempt the theme them other than the queue.<<<

That is somewhat true (Dueling Dragons did have some very nice landscaping back in 1999), but as a coaster both the Hulk and Dueling Dragons run circles around RnRC. After the launch and sea serpent element, RnRC is a borefest.

BTW, while we are bashing Universal for only building a "coaster," lets not forget California Screamin at DCA. For all of the little "supports" that adorn the track, it tries to be nothing more than a standard roller coaster. Its queue is also little more than switchbacks too.

>>>A "standard" that will still the first in its class for Vekoma<<<

For a company that has 30 clones each of boomerangs and SLCs and whose "achievements" include Deja Vu and Rhino Rally, that is not saying much at all. The ONLY good product that Vekoma has ever contributed to this industry is the flying coaster, and B&M has produced a much better version of it BY FAR.

>>>Wow... who would have thought that Space Mountain at DLP was total trash.<<<

According to some of the "rumors" that discuss how the ride is a total ***** to maintain, I would tend to agree that the coaster construction is total trash.

>>>I hope that Vekoma's new work on Space Mountain at Hong Kong Disneyland doesn't suffer the same fate.<<<

Intamin is working on the new Space Mountains for Disney.

>>>Vekoma along with Arrow have always been leaders in roller coaster design and technology.<<<

PLEASE go to the Westcoaster Message Boards and post that. ;)

>>>the same with Dueling Dragons, you take away the other dragon and you have "Batman: The Ride" just like at almost every Six Flags park<<<

The design of Dueling Dragons is on a whole another PLANET from Batman. Both of these coasters were designed to enhance each other, and have many improvements that you will not find at any Six Flags park.

BTW, to put the Six Flags comparisons to rest, take a look at how the Hulk stands up to Six Flags new pride and joy, Scream!

Hulkster:

http://www.rcdb.com/installationgallery557.htm

Scream:

http://www.westcoaster.net/update.php?id=0408033

Planogirl
04-08-2003, 07:59 PM
When did WDW start competing with Six Flags on these boards?

Whatever one says about who designed what when ;) , I can say that the queue of Dueling Dragons is really amazing and head and shoulders above any coaster queue I've seen so far.

Bob O
04-08-2003, 10:30 PM
RNRC is a cloned coaster that!!!! The orignial design first appeared in a Six Flags park and RNRC is a clone of that coaster and isnt orignal in the least!!!! Disney used a cloned design because they were too cheap to pay for something new and unique. Sorry but RNRC wasnt debuted at MGM at all but is a standard Vekoma launched coaster, if they were going to use a cloned desgin there are much better coasters that could have been cloned.
While DD was the FIRST dueling inverted steeel coaster and their is no coaster like it anywhere in the world, a true orginal design and coaster, like disney used to do. As for Hulk it is the first and only coaster to use its unique launch system and its track layout again is unique and can be found nowhere else in the world!!
Both coasters can be found no where else in the world. As for so called one trick pony's they are both ranked in numerous polls in the coaster enthusaist community as world class coasters while RNRC will never have to worry about receving that type of honor!!!!
So i guess we know which park uses Six Flags coasters and which doesnt. As for coasters, if you are talking about Superman Ride of Steel type coaster which is found at several Six Flags parks(by the way a truely great ride that would be a major inprovement over any coaster on disney property) it is built by Intamin and not Vekoma which is regarded as a producer of rough riding coasters and not looked upon highly at all unless you enjoy head rattling coasters!!!
As for Calif Screamin it is sad that a company would build a supposedly old area of the park based on a yesteryear era and then is too cheap to build a wooden coaster but instead builds a steel coaster to look like a wooden coaster. If they wanted realism and were concerned about it they would have built a classic wooden coaster which was big in that era rather than another coaster that was medicore at best!!!

HauntedMansionFan
04-08-2003, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by pheneix

Intamin is working on the new Space Mountains for Disney.
I beg to differ. http://www.rcdb.com/installationdetail1975.htm

The orignial design first appeared in a Six Flags park and RNRC is a clone of that coaster and isnt orignal in the least Again, no its not. RNRC made its debut in July of 1999, Superman: The Ride at Six Flags Holland made its debut on April of 2000.

and have many improvements that you will not find at any Six Flags park. Like?

its track layout again is unique and can be found nowhere else in the world!! Give B&M time, soon you will see an exact clone of this at another park minus the launch. Could B&M become any more predictable though?

if you are talking about Superman Ride of Steel type coaster which is found at several Six Flags parks(by the way a truely great ride that would be a major inprovement over any coaster on disney property) it is built by Intamin and not Vekoma I believe that you are confusing yourself. Superman: The Ride that appears in 3 Six Flags parks here in the states are indeed manufactured by Intamin. But the Superman coaster in question is Superman: The Ride from Six Flags Holland, constructed by Vekoma. Here let me help you: Superman: The Ride (http://www.rcdb.com/installationdetail769.htm)

which is regarded as a producer of rough riding coasters and not looked upon highly at all unless you enjoy head rattling coasters!!! Or on the flip side of the coaster enthusiast coin, some regard B&M coasters as "forceless" hunk of metal.

As for Calif Screamin it is sad that a company would build a supposedly old area of the park based on a yesteryear era and then is too cheap to build a wooden coaster but instead builds a steel coaster to look like a wooden coaster. The original intent was never to build a wooden coaster, Imagineering wanted to be able to have things like the launch and the loop, the tight helixes, but give it that "Boardwalk" feel. So the look of the coaster being made to appear as a wooden coaster is part of the themeing.

pheneix
04-09-2003, 07:11 PM
>>>I beg to differ.<<<

Ughh... It's Intamin, trust me...

>>>Like?<<<

Let's see, the wheel alloys that are changed depending on how loud (The Hulk) or quiet (Dueling Dragons) Universal wants their coastet to be, the weighing system on Dueling Dragons that allows the ride to sync up the lifts to provide an optimum dueling experience, the DRAMATICALLY higher maintenance that these coasters recieve over their Six Flags counterparts, the much higher ride capacity that the coasters operate on, etc.

>>>Or on the flip side of the coaster enthusiast coin, some regard B&M coasters as "forceless" hunk of metal.<<<

I think the vast numbers of people that pass out on The Hulk would disagree with that.

HauntedMansionFan
04-09-2003, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by pheneix
Ughh... It's Intamin, trust me...
Could you point me in the direction of your source? Speaking of Intamin, they have only built one coaster on Disney soil, California Screamin', which by my account has had quite a few problems with its launch mechanism. Plus Disney has a history with both Vekoma and Arrow.

Let's see, the wheel alloys that are changed All B&M coasters feature this.

the DRAMATICALLY higher maintenance that these coasters recieve over their Six Flags counterparts Maintenance has nothing to do with improvements, now if you said due to improvements less maintanence was required then you would have made a statement.

the much higher ride capacity that the coasters operate on, etc. Higher ride capacity has nothing to do with "improvement" that Universal helped develop. It is simply figuring out the best way to allow the max number of cars to operate through a series of block brakes and loading times. At last check, the Hulk only had two sets of block brakes and no trim brakes, I've seen coasters that have up two at least 3 to 4 sets of block brakes and added trim brakes thus allowing them to increase load times.

I think the vast numbers of people that pass out on The Hulk would disagree with that. Vast numbers? :rolleyes: Come on now... you don't even believe that do you? If the G forces were so high that people were passing out left and right then the ride would be put on a hiatus. Also, I've failed to see, hear, or read any stories about "vast" numbers of people passing out. So if you could direct me towards one, that would be great.

pheneix
04-09-2003, 07:58 PM
>>>All B&M coasters feature this.<<<

No, they don't. All other coasters have the same standard B&M "ROAR." Hulk was jacked up considerably, while DD was toned down to keep the noise from intruding into the Lost Continent.

>>>Maintenance has nothing to do with improvements<<<

I'll put it this way, I at least feel SAFE on a Universal coaster. That's definitely an improvement!

>>>Higher ride capacity has nothing to do with "improvement" that Universal helped develop.<<<

Yeah, but they do at least STAFF their rides better than any Sux Flags park I have ever been to.

>>>Vast numbers? Come on now... you don't even believe that do you?<<<

I have seen five people black out on the ride with my own eyes (including my own father). After several conversations with crew members there, I found out this is a pretty common event (over the years potentially HUNDREDS of people have seen stars on this ride). Most people (as is the case with my father) usually come to before they return to the station.

>>>If the G forces were so high that people were passing out left and right then the ride would be put on a hiatus.<<<

Not really. A lot of people have a very, very low tolerance to G-forces (kind of like motion sickness in a way). If a ride is still operating within safe parameters, no one is going to take any action about it. Goliath at Magic Mountain is a chronic black-out machine, and it still operates regularly.

BTW, Mission Space is probably going to have this effect on people. It should be interesting to watch, as it may be the most physically intense ride ever unleashed on this industry.

>>>I've failed to see, hear, or read any stories about "vast" numbers of people passing out.<<<

You're probably not going to see that many stories about the physical abuse that Disney employees recieve from guests on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

HauntedMansionFan
04-09-2003, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by pheneix
I have seen five people black out on the ride with my own eyes (including my own father). After several conversations with crew members there, I found out this is a pretty common event (over the years potentially HUNDREDS of people have seen stars on this ride). Most people (as is the case with my father) usually come to before they return to the station.
Seeing stars and passing out imho are two different things. Now had you said "seeing stars" or whatever I would have been more apt to believe you in the first place, as I had this same thing happen on my first ride on Dr. Doom.


BTW, I'm still waiting on that information about Intamin..... I'm hoping to be able to eat my own words as I prefer an Intamin coaster to a Vekoma one any day.

HauntedMansionFan
04-09-2003, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by pheneix
You're probably not going to see that many stories about the physical abuse that Disney employees recieve from guests on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Just because you have seen five and crew members at the Hulk "claim" this happens all the time, doesn't mean it is a "vast" amount.

Bob O
04-10-2003, 12:15 AM
So where exactly is their a clone of Hulk minus the launch at any other theme park in the world!!! As far B & M being predictable, the only thing that is predictable is the smooth/great ride they offer without the head banging that is standard on vekoma coasters!!! And the coaster enthusaists who perfer steel coasters (alot perfer wooden coasters more)very few that i have met in person at coaster events or on line refer to B & M coasters as junk while it is known thru-out the industry that vekoma is known for rough riding/head banging coasters and why frew of their creations are highly rated on any polls of coasters!!
And if disney had no intent to build a wooden coaster at DCA they shouldnt have put it (Calif Screamin) in a part of the park that would harken to the old glory days of Amusement parks where they all had wooden coasters. If disney wanted that part of the park to be truely authentic they should have lloked to Knotts and built a great wooden coaster like Ghostrider rather than a coaster like the one they built that has a weaker launch than RNRC and one weak loop and over the shoulder restraints that arent needed and remove any air time the ride could offer.

YoHo
04-10-2003, 12:24 AM
In a fit of Irony, those over the shoulder restraints came loose when my wife and a friend of ours rode it last month. Snapped back in right away, but still. A scary thing I don't care how tame it is.

HauntedMansionFan
04-10-2003, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by Bob O
So where exactly is their a clone of Hulk minus the launch at any other theme park in the world!!! Never said that there was a clone.

As far B & M being predictable, the only thing that is predictable is the smooth/great ride they offer That and the predictable layout, every sit-down coaster will offer a loop, interlocking corckscrews, cobral roll,..... yada yada yada....

By the way... did my clarification of the Superman coasters help?

And the coaster enthusaists who perfer steel coasters (alot perfer wooden coasters more)very few that i have met in person at coaster events or on line refer to B & M coasters as junk while it is known thru-out the industry that vekoma is known for rough riding/head banging coasters And in the same respect, I have met many that prefer Vekoma over B&M, but that really isn't the point at hand.

Getting back on track. Universal may have all of the "wow" coasters now, but after many years maintenance time and costs go up. In my humble opinion, Disney still has Universal beat, look at timeless classics like the Haunted Mansion or Pirates of the Carribean. The animatronics in Pirates and the special effects in the Mansion still amaze and amuse me more the anything that Universal has to offer. How long have those rides been around?

Buzz is cheap looking, I'll give anyone that. But MIB? Six Flags are developing the same caliber of attraction in conjunction with the Sally Corp.

Twister? Wow... a tornado... but after two or three viewing the thrill wears off, but at PotC and HM, I still find little details that I've missed before.

I could continue... but I don't have the energy and I'm hungry....

Bob O
04-11-2003, 12:32 AM
Yesthe clarification regarding the Superman ride helped, of course it would be easier if Six Flags didnt feel the need to call so many of their coasters by batman or superman. As for layouts of coasters, while their are only a finite amout of coaster elements to have what counts is the spacing/timing of these elements to produce a great ride with great air time/g forces etc and the smoothness of the ride and this is where IMHO vekoma suffers and while few of their coasters are rated highly in any coaster polls.
And yes disney does have it's classic rides that cant be beat, the thing is they are resting on their laurels and arent creating new ones to add to the old ones.They are more content to give us of the shelf rides and not to create new experiences.
As for Six flags they or disney have nothing at all that competes with Men in Black in regards to a interactive ride where you shoot at targets, are shot at and also shoot at other riders on the same ride. Six flags rides are even worse than Buzz which has nothing that is interactive.
As for over the shoulder restraints alot of parks have removed them from their coasters and it would be nice to see disney remove them from RNRC and Calif Screamin which would improve both rides alot IMHO.

OnWithTheShow
04-11-2003, 02:55 AM
B+M coasters vary their loudness level according to the parks wishes, in addition to different wheel plastics they also fill the hollow parts of the track with sand. Hulk is actually considerably quieter than most un-muted B+M coasters.

BobO which coasters besides the Premier launched coasters have removed OTS restraints for lap bars. If these are the only ones they are far from standard lap bars.

Rock n Roller Coaster opened a full year before Superman and how many WDW visitors will ever go to Six Flags Holland. I enjoy RNRC as a attraction, it is not the best coaster in the world but a top notch attraction non the less. RNRC also has one of the highest hourly capacities of any coaster.

I prefer Dueling Dragons and Hulk to RNRC but all three are in my top 5 coasters. (I have ridden most)

HauntedMansionFan
04-11-2003, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Bob O
And yes disney does have it's classic rides that cant be beat, the thing is they are resting on their laurels and arent creating new ones to add to the old ones.
Can anyone honestly name a Universal attraction that in 20 or 30 years people will say, I need to ride "insert attraction name here" because it is such a great classic ride! None that I can think of.

They are more content to give us of the shelf rides and not to create new experiences. Besides the unberable "Dumbo" clones, RnRC (which OnWithTheShow pointed out is the only coaster like it on US soil) and Primeval Whirl, Universal has there fair share of off the shelf rides as well. IOA is filled with quite a few. Dr. Doom, the Flying Unicorn, Bilge Rat Barges, Storm Force, One Fish/Two Fish, Caro-suess-el..... etc....

As for Six flags they or disney have nothing at all that competes with Men in Black in regards to a interactive ride where you shoot at targets I think you should do a search for Six Flags Holland's new interactive dark ride, "The Curse of Tutmankenh" I believe it is called. Still in the construction stage, but it looks very elaborate and detailed with themeing.

resting on their laurels and arent creating new ones to add to the old ones Mission: SPACE, Expedition Everest?

Bob O
04-11-2003, 07:08 PM
Mission space isnt open so the quality of the ride is in doubt until we have actual reports from people who have ridden it. We allheard how great TT was supposed to be and it didnt live up to all the hype so time will tell if mission space is the great attractionwe all hope that it is. As for everst, lets wait and see till the ride is actually built and running till one sings its praises.
And again hard to compare a ride that is actual up and running for years MIB, to a ride that isnt even finished yet and one is only going on pictures and rumors.
As for Universal classics, only time will tell but i think Spiderman will be a classic as will both Hulk and DD.
Onwiththeshow-Their have been several ridesthat have removed the godawful/painful over the shoulder restraint, Flight of fear at paramounts parks and several rides with a joker theme at Six Flags park. Also Son of Beast was built without a over the shoulder restaint and it has a inversion. Hopefully this will become a model for other coasters to enjoy the ride.

EUROPA
04-11-2003, 07:21 PM
Many people consider Kong a classic attraction that was produced by Universal. Evident by the thousands of people that showed to take one last ride before it was closed.

Planogirl
04-11-2003, 08:00 PM
A few people I spoke with referred to Jaws as a classic. Now this one will need updating but only time will tell if it will be a classic of course. I agree that Spiderman is bound to become a classic mainly due to the popularity of the character.

HauntedMansionFan
04-11-2003, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by Bob O
Mission space isnt open so the quality of the ride is in doubt until we have actual reports from people who have ridden it. We allheard how great TT was supposed to be and it didnt live up to all the hype so time will tell if mission space is the great attractionwe all hope that it is. As for everst, lets wait and see till the ride is actually built and running till one sings its praises.
Then perhaps we shouldn't judge Shrek or Neutron until they open either. ;)

As for Universal classics, only time will tell but i think Spiderman will be a classic as will both Hulk and DD. When I think of a "classic" ride, I think of something non-descript and something that is timeless and ageless. In a few years there will be coasters produced that will out-do, outshine, and outperform both Hulk and DD. As for Spiderman, its to specific, to descript. The same with Spiderman, a technology will came along that will make Spiderman (and Dinosaur and Indy for that matter) look out-dated. Granted it is running strong on the strength of its comic book superhero, but who is to say in a few years that people will remember who Spiderman is? The comic books may stop, the movie franchise will have dried up, etc...
The Haunted Mansion and Pirates are the kinds of non-descript attractions that still "wow" people many years later.

Flight of fear at paramounts parks and several rides with a joker theme at Six Flags park. All of these coasters are manufactured by Premier Rides, so perhaps Vekoma have a valid reason for not converting over to lap bars.

Many people consider Kong a classic attraction that was produced by Universal. If it is considered a "classic" and loved by so many, then why replace it? IMHO, I hardly consider a ride that was around for a little more then a decade a "classic" ride.

EUROPA
04-11-2003, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan

If it is considered a "classic" and loved by so many, then why replace it? IMHO, I hardly consider a ride that was around for a little more then a decade a "classic" ride.

From what I understand it was costing a fortune to keep it open. It was become very hard to repair. Universal did not have the benefit of cannibalizing other attractions to keep it open (like Disney has ) so that and in an effort to keep the part up to date they chose to replace it.

Sure Disney has "Classics" but are they only classics to those that enjoyed them when they were best things going? I wonder how many first time visitors to Disney that have also been to other theme parks rank POTC very high on their "must do" list?

Why must there be an age restriction for the ride to become a "classic"?


Oh Jimmy Nutron is open and reviews say that its better then the old Hanna version.

ChrisFL
04-12-2003, 12:24 AM
One thing about IOA's coasters...

How long of a ride is RnRc? I believe it's 1:30 seconds.

That's a heck of a short time if you've been waiting for 2 hours in line.

Universal had a choice to make. They could:

A.) Build a smaller, enclosed coaster that people would only say they copied Disney with

OR

B.) Make large, world-class coasters that Orlando was SERIOUSLY lacking, and that had unique experiences and technologies.

See, the problem is, unlike Space Mountain, who's top speed is 27mph, RnRc goes to ~60mph. What does that mean? That the faster you go, the shorter the ride duration, which means you'd need more track.

If you need more track, suddenly you need a larger building...etc. etc. Try to picture Universal attempting to put a big ugly building over Hulk. It might work for the guests inside, but it would be an eyesore for the rest of the park, not to mention, incredibly cost-prohibitive.

Yes, Hulk and DD are both highly rated in many coaster enthusiast polls. Hulk IS unique with the first elements of the ride. Dueling Dragons come within 12 inches of each other, and I have not seen any other dueling coasters to date that does that.

I will agree that, technically Hulk is a LOT like Kumba at Busch Gardens, but Hulk is still more exciting to me by far.

RnRc is just a regular coaster in the dark with cardboard-looking cutouts and neon paint. Is that a bad thing? Not really if you're flying by at 50 mph. And the music is an original idea. I like it, but it's not even close to Hulk.

Again, there are a lot of coaster freaks out there who had nothing to do with Orlando, until IOA came along. Universal saw a market that wasn't fufilled and created something for it.

HauntedMansionFan
04-12-2003, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by EUROPA
Universal did not have the benefit of cannibalizing other attractions to keep it open (like Disney has ) so that and in an effort to keep the part up to date they chose to replace it.
They don't? And what Disney attractions do you speak of?

I wonder how many first time visitors to Disney that have also been to other theme parks rank POTC very high on their "must do" list? I would say quite a few. HM and PotC are always rated as "must sees" in almost any guide book that I've read, official or unofficial.

Why must there be an age restriction for the ride to become a "classic"? Not trying to say that there is.... but.... if you do have a ride that stands the test of time. Much like the example that you stated, perhaps Kong was becoming to expensive to maintain and repair, eventually the same problem will be run into with DD and Hulk. Coasters get old, rough, need to be replaced and become higher costs to maintain. The animatronics on Pirates were years ahead of their time and in some regards still ahead of what you find at most parks, including Universal, today.

Oh Jimmy Nutron is open and reviews say that its better then the old Hanna version. A motion simulator themed to Jimmy Neutron isn't going to cause me to want to spend the extra $50 bucks to go to USO, but that is just my take on it.

How long of a ride is RnRc? I believe it's 1:30 seconds. Versus 2:15 for Hulk which includes a 20 second delay for load/unload, this making the ride itself 1:55 seconds.

If you need more track, suddenly you need a larger building...etc. etc. The Hulk is only 297 feet longer then RnRC. Just for the record... ;)

eclipseSD
04-12-2003, 01:47 AM
[off topic]Frankly, POTC at WDW is not that good a ride. I wouldn't give a damn if they replaced it

POTC at DL, on the other hand, should never be touched.

;)

[/off topic]

ChrisFL
04-12-2003, 09:39 AM
Heh, I just checked Thrillride.com and it has the time for RnRc at 1:22 seconds

EUROPA
04-12-2003, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan

They don't? And what Disney attractions do you speak of?



No they do not...Kong from what I understand had a huge number of custom parts that were never really mass produced.

You didn't know that most of Horizons ended up as replacement parts for POTC?




I would say quite a few. HM and PotC are always rated as "must sees" in almost any guide book that I've read, official or unofficial.



Are these guide books written by first time visistors after a day in the park? Take a 10-15 year old put them on POTC and then put them on Spiderman which when built were/are the premimere dark rides of their time. Now which one do you think that kid is going to want to do again? Which one do you think the kid will say is lame? To that kid Spiderman will become the "Classic".

Now is POTC a "classic" becuase of what it is/was or is it a "classic" becuase we are told so?




Not trying to say that there is.... but.... if you do have a ride that stands the test of time. Much like the example that you stated, perhaps Kong was becoming to expensive to maintain and repair, eventually the same problem will be run into with DD and Hulk. Coasters get old, rough, need to be replaced and become higher costs to maintain.


Just like many people thought that 20,000 Leagues was a classic. Sometimes the repair bill outweighs the benefit of replacing it. Or in Disney's case leaving the space empty.

Any way you slice it, I like Universal approach to update the attraction and make it better then what was there before. Yes its very easy to replace a Coaster. When its time comes for something new and better I don't have a problem with it being replaced. Yes it will be sentimental and many people will miss the attraction but that is just part of it.


A motion simulator themed to Jimmy Neutron isn't going to cause me to want to spend the extra $50 bucks to go to USO, but that is just my take on it.



Well I hope not. I would not spend 50 dollars to ride POTC either.

HauntedMansionFan
04-12-2003, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by EUROPA
You didn't know that most of Horizons ended up as replacement parts for POTC?
Sure. And America Sings has shown up in some forms as Splash Mountain, if you could recycle unused materials.... why wouldn't you?

Are these guide books written by first time visistors after a day in the park? I have two in my possession. One is the official guide which of course says that it is a must-see. But the other one is an unofficial guide which still rates as a "must-see" and considered it a headliner attraction.

Take a 10-15 year old put them on POTC and then put them on Spiderman which when built were/are the premimere dark rides of their time. Now which one do you think that kid is going to want to do again? Depends on the kid. Don't assume because of age that they are going to be all about thrill rides. Dependant on their attitude and likes/dislikes they may prefer Pirates over Spidey.

Now is POTC a "classic" becuase of what it is/was or is it a "classic" becuase we are told so? No, because for its age it is still one of the most elaborately and imaginative attractions ever designed.

Well I hope not. I would not spend 50 dollars to ride POTC either. I wouldn't expect you to. But you can't compare Pirates to Neutron. Universal is attempting to pass this off as a "new" reason to come to the park, which it isn't for me. Pirates isn't trying to pass itself off as a reason to go to Disney.

HauntedMansionFan
04-12-2003, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by EUROPA
Your missing the point. Are they must sees because of sentimentally or would a someone with a fresh perspective really seem them as Classic must do's? I submit they don't.
I don't think I am. Not everyone is awed or "wowed" by giant thrill rides or roller coasters. I think that if you are visiting MK for the first time, that Pirates would be on the list of attractions that you would want to do. Not, "let's do the mountains and Haunted Mansion.... Pirates? What's that... let's skip that."

In fact both are written by people that have been to Disney many..many times. Because of sentimentally people develop what I like to call "Disney Goggles" and really lose perspective. Perspective? SentimentalIty you mean? The animatronics at Pirates still outdo anything that Universal has to offer. Jurrasic Park? Yes, the dinosaurs are impressive, but no more impressive then the animatronics in Pirates which debuted YEARS ago.

Overall what you do you really think that percentage would be? Well speaking from personal experience. Last May I went to Disney with my 18 year old, younger brother, we went to both Disney parks and IOA. We had done Disney as a family years ago, and he hadn't been back since. My brother was impressed by Spiderman, but mention Pirates around him and he still says that it is one of his most favorite rides. Granted, its anyone's guess what the percentage might/could be, but I doubt anyone is going to start a research study about it.

Just like Disney is going to do with "Mickey's PhilharMagic". I never mentioned this particular attraction did I? So don't put words in my mouth, I don't appreciate it. If you wanted my opinion on how I feel about Disney's replacement attractions you should have asked, not assumed.

Heck Disney added a giant hat and a new parade and billed it as a almost two year long event. This was a 4 park celebration, not a one small ride event, that showcased the magic that Disney brought to many people's lives. Did you miss the "One Man's Dream Exhibit"? It wasn't about the hat or the parade, it was a celebration of the magic of Walt Disney.

EUROPA
04-12-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan

I don't think I am.



Yes you are.


Perspective? SentimentalIty you mean? The animatronics at Pirates still outdo anything that Universal has to offer. Jurrasic Park? Yes, the dinosaurs are impressive, but no more impressive then the animatronics in Pirates which debuted YEARS ago.



All personal opnions that I'm sure many people will agree with and disagree with. Try it without the Disney Goggles.



Well speaking from personal experience. Last May I went to Disney with my 18 year old, younger brother, we went to both Disney parks and IOA. We had done Disney as a family years ago, and he hadn't been back since. My brother was impressed by Spiderman, but mention Pirates around him and he still says that it is one of his most favorite rides. Granted, its anyone's guess what the percentage might/could be, but I doubt anyone is going to start a research study about it.



...and I can give you they 180 degree spin to that one.



There is no need for a personal attack. It's rude.


I never mentioned this particular attraction did I? So don't put words in my mouth, I don't appreciate it. If you wanted my opinion on how I feel about Disney's replacement attractions you should have asked, not assumed.

This was a 4 park celebration, not a one small ride event, that showcased the magic that Disney brought to many people's lives. Did you miss the "One Man's Dream Exhibit"?


It seemed clear that you would defend any attraction put forth by Disney; I do not need to ask you about every attraction. It would become tedious. The fact that you were attacking Universal for doing the exact same thing that Disney does and will do in the near future led me to that. Sorry if you "felt" like it was a personal attack. I have doubts about that as well. How about we say...glibness

Yes a huge 4-park celebration at that. We were very impressed with the new paper plates and napkins they developed to celebrate. Yes I did see where they dragged out some of Walt's old stuff and models of the park. It was very impressive.

Planogirl
04-12-2003, 04:14 PM
Actually, there are a few coasters that are quite old and labeled as classics. We even have one here in Dallas at Six Flags and I personally love the old thing. Then there's the one at Coney Island and so on. It's all a matter of perspective.

And continually bashing Universal won't convince anyone that certain things at Disney are more "classic" than at Universal. With that, I'm outta here! :)

HauntedMansionFan
04-12-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by EUROPA
Yes you are. Are we 5? Did I not see the sandox on the way in?

Try it without the Disney Goggles. I am. But perhaps you should try viewing things without your "Universal Goggles" either. :rolleyes:

...and I can give you they 180 degree spin to that one. And that just proves the point. There is no accurate decision to which ride (Pirates or Spidey) a teenager would like, just because they are a teenager doesn't mean they are all about thrill rides, on the flip side, just because they are a teenager doesn't mean they don't like a dark boat ride.

will do in the near future led me to that. Can I borrow your crystal ball? I want the lottery numbers for next week.

Sorry if you "felt" like it was a personal attack. Seems that a moderator agreed with me also.

I have doubts about that as well. How about we say...glibness *yawn* Why do I feel like I've been here with you before?


Yes I did see where they dragged out some of Walt's old stuff and models of the park. It was very impressive. Glad you liked it. I can't wait to see the display of Vivendi's CEO, should be equally as impressive.

EUROPA
04-12-2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan
next week.

Seems that a moderator agreed with me also.


I would not brag about that.

HauntedMansionFan
04-12-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by EUROPA
I would not brag about that. Who's bragging? It has become quite apparent and very clear that you need to have the last word in any of your encounters. So I'll give into whatever "need" of yours that is to be fulfilled...... so you can post after this and fill that desire. Have a good day.

lrodk
04-12-2003, 06:32 PM
For the sake of the integrity of the forum I ask that any personal disagreements be conveyed via pm either to myself or Sarangel. FYI, the post HauntedMansion is referring to was accidently removed. My intent, which I conveyed to Europa, was to edit part of the message. I inadvertantly moved it instead, and for some reason I can't get it back. We should leave it at that and get on with the discussion. My apologies to all who were affected.

YoHo
04-12-2003, 08:17 PM
At the risk of making things worse.

At Disneyland, Pirates of the Caribbean is the Number 1 attraction in the park in terms of number of guests riding it per year.

NUMBER 1

Disneyland is the Number 1 Themepark IN THE U.S. It has the most visitors of any single Theme park in the country.

Therefore, The answer to the Question Is Pirates still a popular ride or is it just a classic that the foggey's ride is, YES, Pirates of the Caribbean is an extremely popular ride with people of all ages, so Popular that it is the most popular ride in the most popular Park in the U.S.


So put that in your Rollercoaster and Smoke it!
:bounce:


(Note, the above sentence is meant in jest, not to offend anyone.)

Bob O
04-12-2003, 10:37 PM
HMF-I havent judged Shrek/Neutron because i havent been on either ride or heard any reports(though i will say they should have kept hitchcock and put shrek somdewhere else).
Their are numerous classic coasters, just as their are classic dark rides like HM/POTC etc. Most of them are wooden coasters due to their age but classics come in every ride catageroy be they coasters/dark rides/carousels. Coasters if maintained properly can run as long as dark rides and still not be outdone by newer rides which may be faster but still not have allthe elements that make a great coaster. As for vekoma not getting rid of the restraints is just another example of their inept product!!! They would perfer to headbang the guests than add to the ride experience.
As for what rides are good or not good, the last thing i would use is a guide book be it disney spin in their version or the so-called unofficial guide books. These books rate almost every attraction good and rarely are honest and say a ride "sucks".


And in ending some will defend disney no matter what they do and will say anything disney does is great because it has a disney trademark/name attached to it. And because sadly this mindset is their disney doesnt feel the need of late to improve their parks and will continue to build medicore rides and reduce hours etc because some people will buy into anything disney gives them and say it is great.

HauntedMansionFan
04-12-2003, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by Bob O
And in ending some will defend disney no matter what they do and will say anything disney does is great because it has a disney trademark/name attached to it. And because sadly this mindset is their disney doesnt feel the need of late to improve their parks and will continue to build medicore rides and reduce hours etc because some people will buy into anything disney gives them and say it is great. I will agree with you on this. Because I have a love for Disney, I will defend it, to a point. But just like you said at the end of this statement, I whole-heartedly agree. Disney does need to build up their parks, Epcot is a mess and Animal Kingdom NEEDS Everest. Even MGM could use a few smaller things or another major live show at least. Magic Kingdom is good for now on attractions, they just need to stay on top of their upkeep. Some paint and spackle works wonders.

OnWithTheShow
04-14-2003, 12:19 AM
Just some info, with the exception of technical difficulties the posted wait times at Rock n Roller Coaster seldom exceed 50 minutes even on capacity days. In reality most posted waits at coaster are 10-15 minutes less. Doctor Doom is a 30 second attraction with waits averaging 90 minutes on capacity days.

Sarangel
04-14-2003, 11:31 AM
OK, Gang, this has gone on long enough. One of the rules about posting on the DIS is that personal attacks on individuals are not permitted. This includes name calling. Since I've removed 3 instances of that from this thread and Luis has removed one, I'm closing it.

I'm not saying that you can't disagree on whether B&M or Venkoma are better coaster builders, or whether Disney or Universal provide better value for your dollar, but you need to disagree with the points raised, not call each other names.

You may re-visit the topic in a new thread, provided you discuss it in a polite fashion.

Sarangel