Has Disney let Universal Catch Up In All Market Segments?

[DisneyKidds]

This concept was thrown out in another thread. Someone said their 4 yo liked Universal, and someone else said that Disney has let Universal catch up in every market segment.

Is this true? What do you think?

I don't believe it is. Disney has always been about families. I'm surprised to see the person who made the comment actually viewed Disney by market segment (at least in this instance) as that is not what Disney was/is about. I do belive that the gap between Disney and Universal has narrowed for a variety of reasons. However, I do believe that Disney appeals to a wider range of families than Universal.

If you want to look at market segments, I fully believe that Universal is nowhere near Disney in the 5 and under and 50 and over segments. Universal has probably gotten closer in the 6 to 15 and 40 to 49 segments, but I wouldn't say 'caught up'. 16 to 39 is probably a toss up. Universal has those who prefer the thrill rides, Disney has those who prefer story. However, for a family that includes at least one person from each of these groups, I believe Disney is still ahead of Universal.

Let me qualify that these are just my impressions and observations without any hard data to back it up.

[HB2K]

Kidds,

While I do not feel that UO has caught up fully with WDW, I think they are well on their way. They have this "thrill" market segment pretty much tied up with IOA (although that park is sooo much more than that), they are building hotels, which from all accounts are better than any of Disney's latest offerings, and they are truely turning that little piece of property into a full blown vacation destination....a viable alternative to a WDW trip.

Where I get my opinions from are trends.

WDW is making cut backs, UO is making additions. WDW crys poverty and blames it's consumers for not getting their theme park. UO leads a charge and makes aggressive expansion plans.

One park is doing the right PR things, the other doing the wrong ones.

Attendance numbers will follow these trends. Just watch.

[hopemax]

Note: I haven't been to the Universal Studios Florida properties.

However, it does provide food for thought to examine both Disney's and Universal's latest parks. Both were second parks, both were intended to change their property into a multi-day experience. Both had their companies going outside their norm, Disney going for a more "hip & edgy" crowd, Universal going for a more family friendly crowd.

Adults/Teens only:
Screamin - Hulk
Mullholland Madness - Dueling Dragons
Grizzly River Rapids - Bluto's Bildge Rat Barges
Soarin' - Spiderman
Maliboomer - Dr. Doom's Fearfall
Orange Stinger - Dudley Do Right
- Jurassic park River Adventure

Maybes:

Tough to Be A Bug - Sindbad
Redwood Creek Trail - Camp Jurassic
Animation - Discovery Center
Golden Dreams - Poseidon's Fury (recommended age 6+)
Muppet Vision -
Jumpin Jellyfish (40") - Pteranodon Flyers (36")

Kid Friendly:
Triton's Carousel - Caro-Seuss-El
USS. Rustworthy - Me Ship, The Olive
Superstar Limo - Cat in the Hat
Golden Zephyr - One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish
Hyperion Theater -
- Flying Unicorn
- If I Ran The Zoo
- Stormforce

Mickey & Co - SpongeBob and friends

I don't want to get into a big debate about this ride is better than that ride, but I do think that IOA opened with better selection of adult rides than DCA. And I think that IOA opened with at least as good of a selection of kid friendly rides that DCA did. Both of these parks are not nearly as kid friendly as the Magic Kindoms, so as a vacation destination choice it's no wonder DL and WDW still are ahead. But their latest parks show how the two companies may not be as far apart anymore in their philosophies. Disney may be slightly more family, Universal may be slightly more thrill-seeking, but it's not a big chasm anymore.

It's like the Tortoise and the Hare. The Hare (Disney) ran out to a HUGE lead, and then decided to take a nap, content that even if he slept the Tortoise (Universal) would never catch up. The Tortoise just kept doing his thing and now, the sleeping Hare is in sight. If he keeps his head down, he might be able to sneek right by and win the race. Actually, Tortoise and the Hare might not be the right analogy because in this case the Tortoise is turning into a faster animal. If the Hare woke up right now, I think he'd see a smaller hare beside him. He may be able to pull away, but then again?

Is IOA at the level Disney was a few years ago, no, but neither is Disney. So as of today, looking back at what both companies have done in the last couple years, yes, I think Disney has let Universal catch up in a lot of ways, including the under 5's. Universal is strengthened with the successes of their cartoon characters. Disney has lost a lot of talent to Universal, and if both of their parent companies could get their finances in order, it would be incredible to see what the two companies could do if their racehorses were free to run.

[YoHo]

Universal Studios has always reminded me more of Vegas then Disney. A very subtle difference and to Disney's Discredit, a gap they seem to be tightening.


Still, the Universal Expereance is still not what WDW is. Even if they are catching up and I agree with Scoop in many ways it never can be.

[HB2K]

quote:
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WDW is making cut backs, UO is making additions. WDW crys poverty and blames it's consumers for not getting their theme park. UO leads a charge and makes aggressive expansion plans.
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Additions? Aggressive expansion plans?

Shrek, Jimmy Neutron, the rumored Mummy coaster, etc.

Bob Gault (Is that his name?) is running around screaming about what UO is doing, not what they're cutting back.

Seems aggressive to me. Better than ho humming your expansions (when are they opening btw?) and stuffing cutback after cutback down our throat.

[CasualObserver]

Disclaimer: I've never been to US-Florida but I have been to IOA.

It seems to me that the big marketing difference and experience difference between US/IOA and WDW is one of "fun" versus one of "magic".

Disney's marketing is about experiencing "the magic" and their parks try and give you a sense that something incredible is going to happen any minute.

US/IOA pushes the fun of the experience at their parks. They don't try and out magic Disney, they try and match quality of themeing and attractions. At IOA, I didn't get the feeling that something incredible was just about to happen. I got the feeling that I was going to discover something fun.

Disney is great at the surprises, like the streetmosphere performers in World Showcase or DeVine at DAK.

IOA is great at pushing the fun level way up. Popeye is much more fun than Kali - it's longer, and wetter. Spiderman is more fun than CtoE at DAK.

I give Disney credit for trying to focus on family attractions but current mgmts trend of cutting back, crying poverty, blaming customers puts US/IOA in a great position to take a siginificant part of the family market.

The question yet to be answered is the question of will families respond to the fun factor over the "magic" factor. I think the jury is still out. Small children really dig the magic. Their parents really respond to the nostalgia of WDW.

It's the perception of Disney that is so tough to break from the outside. While other studios became corporate subsidiaries or produced a wide range of films from family to r-rated, Disney stuck to family films for the family brand. This keeps people coming back as they remember the great Disney films of their childhood and they want to bring their kids back to relive it. US has the burden that no one thinks "family" when they hear Universal Studios. Until US breaks that perception, Disney will keep the family market.

Casual Observer

[HB2K]

What are Shrek and Jimmy Neutron?
What's that thing in Animal Kingdom? What's Mickey's Philharmagic?

I've seen more press for UO's upcoming attractions than I have for Disney's (shy of this board).

P.S. These attractions (Shrek, JNuetron) were announced months ago and apparently close to opening (per screamscape).

When does the Mummy open?
I don't know. It has yet to be announced (probably don't want to overshadow the other attractions). When I asked when the attractions opened, I was referrencing M:S & Philharmagic....not the un-announced Yeti coaster. Apples to apples.

Has UO seen any cuts in hours, etc. recently similar to either actual or rumored Disney cuts?
While I haven't researched this, I'm sure they have. It's just funny that they are done much more low key than when Disney cuts theirs. Somehow UO seems to keep the positive stuff in the PR and the negative either out or buried in their wall street clippings. Disney's cutbacks always seem to end up front and center in both PR & business news. Why's that? Is that good for business?

[hopemax]

Jimmy Neutron is a simulator, it's supposed to open in April

Shrek is Shrek 4D, so it's a 3-D movie plus stuff, coming this summer.

[pheneix]

Jimmy Neutron opens to AP holders on the weekend of April 5th, and to everyone else shortly thereafter.

Shrek 4D is scheduled to open in June, although soft openings may occur in late May. Expect another AP event to coincide with Shrek's opening.

The Mummy will open in April of 2004 as it stands right now. Its announcement is still up in the air though (before Memorial Day seems to be a pretty safe bet).

>>>Has UO seen any cuts in hours, etc. recently similar to either actual or rumored Disney cuts?<<<

NO! NO! And... NO!

Universal has actually been increasing their hours (most of the increases were already set into the 2003 calendar back in December rather than adjustments two or three weeks in advance) and entertainment this year, and have been doing so ever since Bob Gault took over in December of 2001.

[KNWVIKING]

DW and I are fairly young empty nester,(43). We enjoy thrill rides and enjoy IOA for that purpose. Since '95 we have been to UO four times and IOA twice, about a total of 10 actual park day, and can honesty say that we covered everything both parks- and City Walk- had to offer. We will return occassionally as new attractions open and to eat at Emirel's, but it ain't Disney, not even close.

Part of the alore of Disney is the history.UO/IOA's recent and future history will never have the same draw. It seems to me that everything "Disney" has a story behind it. While I was never a "Mousekettier", Frontierland and old Davey Crockett shows will forever have a soft spot in my heart.

We belong to DVC and make 3-4 eight day trips a year to WDW. It is amazing the things we still find that we haven't done yet. Someday I'll even try that thing called "golf". We have started doing the various tours, visiting all the other resorts just to look around, trying to eat at at least three new places a trip. Soooo many details still to discover. The World is just so amazing.

When was the last time you ever heard a friend, family, co-worker or anyone say "hey, were going to UO/IOA ". Maybe with the addition of on-site resorts UO will become a primary destination, but to me, after three-four days I'd be bored. Statistic can show IOA attendance increasing while WDW is decreasing, but IMO this is due to WDW visitors also visiting IOA because it is exciting and new. WDW is still why people go to Florida, they just have more items on the menu to chose from.

[HB2K]

Originally posted by thedscoop
Huh? This is an odd response.

What I was trying to ask is what is Jimmy Neutron and what is Shrek? I'm heard them referenced to but I'm not familiar with what they are? Coaster? Live show? Something else?

Scoop.

p.s. What were else you referring to when you mentioned "etc."?

I thought you were being sarcastic. I misread your statement.

Sorry

Also the etc probably should have been left out, but it was in referrence to the rumored expansion at IOA....but that's probably a couple of years out....

[HB2K]

The last rumor I heard was either a Flyer roller coaster (similar to Superman @ Six FLags Ga) or some type of jeep ride....either ride would have been located in Jurrasic Park.

[raidermatt]

Has Disney let Universal Catch Up In All Market Segments? I pretty much agree :eek: with your general assessment, DK, that UO has not "caught up" to Disney in all segments. I'm not sure about the breakdown however, but as you stated, we don't have any real data to back us up.

One thing to remember is that a thrill-seeker can still potentially be happy with other things, while a thrill-averse person (either due to physical limitations or by choice) is never going to be happy with "thrill-stuff".

Certainly, however, Universal has closed the gap in all areas since IoA opened. They've probably made some large gains in the family area, but the gap there was huge from the get-go.

I happen to think that of the two, Universal is doing the better job of executing its strategy. But WDW's many advantages, including reputation and size, will make it difficult for Universal to ever outdraw WDW in any area other than thrill-seekers. That's not to say they can't do it, just that they've got a long way to go.

[Planogirl]

I remember thinking about this just last week while we were at Universal. Universal's parks are excellent for older kids and grownups but I think they're still missing the mark for the little ones. They do have some excellent play areas for little kids and the Dr Seuss area is great for them but they have a ways to go before they come close to what Disney offers.

I thought that the comments about Disney history was interesting. I agree but I wonder how important this history will be to today's teenagers and even younger kids unless Disney aggressively markets its past? I personally like the superheroes and dinosaurs and top movies Universal plays with and I wonder if the old standbys such as Mickey Mouse and friends can hold up with the kids?

By the way, Jimmy Neutron was set to open any day according to those I asked while Shrek was well on the way. The Mummy/Scorpion King/whatever ride is supposed to be an indoor coaster but no word on what (if any) progress has been made.

[Bob O]

I dont think the teenagers of today care at all about disney's history, which to that segment could be a neagtive more than a positive.
I dont think Universal has caught up in all segments but has made great head way in most segments and is on the upswing while disney IMHO is on a downward spiral that doesnt give much hope for the future(of coruse with eisner gone things could change!!)
Universal is making inroads at disney's market and disney apparently wants to get by on its name and doesnt want to spend money to improve its parks!!

[KNWVIKING]

"I dont think the teenagers of today care at all about disney's history, which to that segment could be a neagtive more than a positive."

Up until my son spent spring break at WDW with his GF, I might have agreed with you. Both had been there before,in their mid-teens, and quite honestly my son got bored quite quickly with WDW. He was brought up on the REAL boardwalk here in Jersey as well as several trips to Six Flaggs. WDW was tame compared to them. Now in his early twenties, (probably should know exactly how old,but it's late) I enjoyed observing the planning he put into his trip this spring. Guess what,he's hooked. He may not realize it, or want to admit it,but he is. He doesn't care about Shrek or Spidy charactors, he wanted his GF to be with Chip and Dale because his Disney history includes memories of he and his brother being Chip and Dale to DW and I. I think as long as parents continue to take their children to WDW when they are young, the history will always mean something to them.

[KNWVIKING]

Just curious, but with Vivendi's terrible debt burden, just how aggresive can they be ? Shrek & Jimmy are obvious hot properties right now and the expenditures are well justified, but after Mummy opens, how much more can they continue to pump in ? Isn't UO/IOA feeding cash to other divisions same as WDW/DL are ?

[HB2K]

They own the theme park rights to Harry Potter & LOR. They are hotter properties.


Say Universal expands modestly over the next 3-5 years, then once the economy comes back, they expand using such properties. In my eyes, it bridges a LOT of gaps.

I think, while Vivendi is also struggling, the theme parks don't seem to be the company's internal ATM machine. From the info I've read, it looks like the parks kind of run themselves. When Bob Gault came in, he said many of the expansions were dependant on attendance figures....you know, re-investing your profits to reap bigger benefits? Something Disney should look into.

[ChrisFL]

My thoughts...

There will be, for at least 15-20 more years, people who think of Disney and it's past as something they prefer to go to, especially if they're already in their 30's-40's and remember what it used to be like.

But, that is only if Disney doesn't shut down or replace all their classic attractions along the way, which we seem to be witnessing.

Ignoring Vivendi's financial troubles for a moment as that is a constantly chaning situation... UO is definitely on a large upswing.

They had a great strategy with IOA, fill the niche that Disney lacked, with great stories and theming, and still have some kid-friendly areas.

With that said, there is some lacking of real family attractions compared to Disney. Even UO said they want kids 8 and up.

Universal Studios shut down only the attractions that were becoming outdated with today's youth, like Alfred Hitchcock, and for other reasons, Hanna Barbera, and they are creating attractions that will be popular for a few years and they can change them again. Sure it sounds bad in a way, but then again, they've still got some other attraction space to use for later.

UO still has 2,000 more acres for 2 more theme parks, and it's anyone's guess who's maket they're going after with those!

I think Disney is trying to make this a thrill-ride arms race, similar to Cedar Point/Kings Island, but they could lose some fan base with that if they forget where they started. Unfortunately, it seems they've already forgotten.

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by HB2K
They own the theme park rights to Harry Potter & LOR. They are hotter properties.

I'm glad to see this mentioned because I'd forgotten about this for the moment. I can't begin to imagine the interest potentially generated by attractions based on these franchises. I also believe that both having the potential to have incredibly strong staying power.

It should be interesting.

[blackshirt]

Universal/IOA will never be able to compete with Disney for that important segment of 10 and younger. They don't yet have the characters(although they seem to be making a dent) Sorry, but 20 years from now, Shrek, as distasteful as it may seem to some, will still be around. Mickey will remain a symbol of Disney, but will continue to be propped up by new creations. What was the last truly GREAT Disney Creation? Lion King? YES! Sorry, can't include Pixar characters. We are going to Orlando in two weeks, and quite frankly, if it was not at my daughter's( She is 11) insistence, we would bypass Disney entirely. I'm not mad, just disappointed. For me there is nothing new at Disney. The parks are still great, but they are just.......tired,old. One new attraction every five years for each park, financed by outside corporations is not acceptable. At least Universal SEEMS to be trying!!! ANYWAY, Sorry to ramble... We will be going Master's Week to Orlando, but each year the trips to Disney dwindle compared to visits to other parks(not just Universal/IOA). Believe it or not this saddens me, but Disney has really rested on its laurels for far to long. They continue to take their so called "guests" for granted. We all know what happens when a company does this for an extended period of time.
Just IMHO

[HB2K]

Believe it or not this saddens me, but Disney has really rested on its laurels for far to long. They continue to take their so called "guests" for granted. We all know what happens when a company does this for an extended period of time.
Just IMHO
I feel your pain...and that's why I've been in car 3 / 4

[pheneix]

For the record, Universal Orlando is half owned by the investment group Blackstone, and if/when a sale should take place Blackstone would be the front runner for a purchase.

The only park that Vivendi owns outright is Universal Studios Hollywood, and it shows...

[Eyesnur]

Mickey Mouse is still Mickey Mouse. Shrek is forgotten already. Universal is building for now which is good for the consumer. They have what, 3 new announced attactions? Hey, so does WDW!

USF has two parks that are half day parks (by account of all except those Universal/IOA pumpers). WDW hs much, much more. WDW will continue to add attractions slowly, Universal will quickly run out of space.

Lastly, how many people go to USF for a whole week? Not many. The best case scenerio for USF is to continue to whittle a day or two from those WDW vacations. After that it's all about longevity. Winner? Disney by three lengths.

...Oh, one more thing. The parnership (I use the term loosely) between Blackstone & Vivendi has to be more complex than it appears otherwise why would Vivendi be holding it (it=a Universal that still can't service its debt) when they (Vivendi) so desperately need the cash?

[HB2K]

Originally posted by Eyesnur
Mickey Mouse is still Mickey Mouse. Shrek is forgotten already. Universal is building for now which is good for the consumer. They have what, 3 new announced attactions? Hey, so does WDW!

USF has two parks that are half day parks (by account of all except those Universal/IOA pumpers). WDW hs much, much more. WDW will continue to add attractions slowly, Universal will quickly run out of space.

Lastly, how many people go to USF for a whole week? Not many. The best case scenerio for USF is to continue to whittle a day or two from those WDW vacations. After that it's all about longevity. Winner? Disney by three lengths.

...Oh, one more thing. The parnership (I use the term loosely) between Blackstone & Vivendi has to be more complex than it appears otherwise why would Vivendi be holding it (it=a Universal that still can't service its debt) when they (Vivendi) so desperately need the cash?

Thanks for the comedy! That had to be the funniest post I've read in a while....and the half a day part about IOA is truely priceless....

[Eyesnur]

If AK is a half day park then certainly IOA and US fare no better. Read some comments by those not pumping USF occasionally. ;)

Oh, btw, have you forgotten that AK still outdrew IOA and US last year? You guys conveniently forget this or rest on the 'wait until next year' line... :o

[raidermatt]

Universal is building for now which is good for the consumer. They have what, 3 new announced attactions? Hey, so does WDW! Universal has two parks, WDW 4. Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect Disney to be building more new attractions than Universal?

USF has two parks that are half day parks (by account of all except those Universal/IOA pumpers). I'm not a U/IOA pumper and in fact have never been there, nor do I really have the desire to expend the necessary effort to leave WDW and go there. But to their audience, U/IoA is not considered 2 1/2 day parks. Much of Disney's audience, however, consders AK to be a 1/2 day park.

WDW hs much, much more. WDW will continue to add attractions slowly, Universal will quickly run out of space. And space is one of those advantages WDW has and they can thank the dead guy for it. But with that space and size still comes a need to keep folks coming back, as well as attract new guests. That's where the "slow addition strategy" hurts.

Lastly, how many people go to USF for a whole week? Not many. True, but I wonder how much their average "length of stay" has increased since IoA was added, vs. WDW's since AK was added...

The best case scenerio for USF is to continue to whittle a day or two from those WDW vacations. After that it's all about longevity. Winner? Disney by three lengths. If they really do manage to continue taking a day or two from WDW vacations, won't that be a problem for WDW, since their guests' length of stay would decrease? Disney's cost structure, infrastructure and entire business model is based on longer stays. Losing a day or two, should it happen in large enough numbers, would be devastating to them.

Can't really contribute to the Blackstone/Vivendi discussion beyond uninformed speculation... it could be that Vivendi simply hasn't found a buyer willing to pay what they want, or it could be they want to have the resort's cash flow coming in over the long term, or maybe they consider the resort to be of growing value... Again, just uninformed speculation...

[raidermatt]

Oh, btw, have you forgotten that AK still outdrew IOA and US last year? You guys conveniently forget this or rest on the 'wait until next year' line... If we are going to start tossing aroung attendance figures again...is it meaningless that the gap between AK and IoA was the smallest its ever been, 1.2 mil, while USF only trailed AK by 400k? Is it meaningless that Universal's attendance rose last year while Disney's fell?

I know, now you'll rest on the "International travel" line...:rolleyes:

;)

[pheneix]

>>>have you forgotten that AK still outdrew IOA and US last year?<<<

Having seen samples of all three of these park's daily attendance numbers grace my inbox numerous times this year, I can tell you that both USF and IOA outdrew Animal Kingdom each and every time, sometimes by a difference of several thousand (ever since Spring Break unnofficially started a couple of weeks ago). Even last year I'd say the tide turned right around the time that Halloween Horror Nights blew open its gates and shattered every attendance record that Universal ever held.

Eyesnur, does the name "Marcie" ring any bells?

[Eyesnur]

Never in my life have I referred to the 'International travel line'...But thanks for the point.

As for the figures...Yes, I think they are pretty much meaningless year to year. But the trend for a five year period can be telling and this bump in the road Disney may be feeling will eventually even out, as will USF's bump up.

is it meaningless that the gap between AK and IOA was the smallest it's ever been?

No, not at all. It simply goes to show that Universal's best park still can't outdraw WDW's worst park

[pheneix]

>>>But the trend for a five year period can be telling and this bump in the road Disney may be feeling will eventually even out, as will USF's bump up.<<<

There's one opinion. Many others feel that Disney is going to be in a HELL of a shock this summer when Universal Studios is firmly in the spotlight in Florida thanks to two new attractions (and at the rate Mission Space is going, Universal is in for some very smooth sailing until the end of September), and that USF just might cruise in to the #2 slot in the state of Florida. Personally I think that MGM might hold on to #2 (its performance is significantly better than Epcot or Animal Kingdom), but Epcot and Animal Kingdom are toast.

And then there's the Magic Kingdom. The fact that it's attendance is currently over twice as high as any other park in Florida really says a lot if you ask me.

[Planogirl]

Plus I believe that adding LOTR and Harry Potter attractions has the potential to shoot Universal to new levels. And this is from a long-time Disney fan who's frankly VERY worried nowadays.

By the way, Universal own Wet and Wild now and I understand that there's talk of building another park somewhere down the road. I hope that someone better informed can comment on this.

[raidermatt]

Never in my life have I referred to the 'International travel line'...But thanks for the point. Never have I said "Wait 'till next year", so touche!

As for the figures...Yes, I think they are pretty much meaningless year to year. But the trend for a five year period can be telling and this bump in the road Disney may be feeling will eventually even out, as will USF's bump up.

Vs. 1997 numbers, AK added 7.3 million guests, while the other three parks lost 8.9 million. (MK lost 3 million, Epcot 3.5, and MGM 2.4)

IoA added 6.1 million, while USF lost 2.0 million.

SeaWorld added 100k.

Percentage wise, MK is down 17.6%, USF 22.5%, MGM 23.1%, and Epcot 29.7%. WDW as a whole is down 4.1%, Universal is up 46.1%.


Lots of ways to interpret those. I certainly can't say they prove Universal is gaining, but they definitely could be an indication of inroads being made.

No, not at all. It simply goes to show that Universal's best park still can't outdraw WDW's worst park Actually, if we are going to be literal, it shows that IoA couldn't outdraw AK last year.

As a business, Disney must grow vs. Disney, not just stay ahead of Universal. Likewise, Universal has to be viewed as succeeding if it grows vs. Universal, even if it doesn't catch Disney in one year.

Bottom line, while the published evidence does not yet support a position that Universal is definitely hurting WDW significantly, it also does not yet support a position that WDW is chugging along as it always has.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by HB2K
Shrek, Jimmy Neutron, the rumored Mummy coaster, etc.
Disney has Mickey's Philharmagic, Mission: SPACE, and the newly announced Animal Kingdom coaster. That sounds like expansion to me also. Or am I missing something?

P.S. These attractions (Shrek, JNuetron) were announced months ago and apparently close to opening (per screamscape). These really aren't "additions" per se, just retooling of rides/shows that were already in place.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by HB2K
They own the theme park rights to Harry Potter & LOR. They are hotter properties.
Actually Warner Brothers owns any attraction and characters rights to Harry Potter, they are already planning on building a theme land in their movie park in Australia. They have already had a "Harry Potter & the Chamber of Secrets Movie Experience". And Lord of the Rings is owned by New Line Features, whose parent company is AOL/Time Warner. So unless there is a merger in the future or some huge purchases in the works, Universal won't have a Harry Potter or LOTR attractions anytime soon.

[Eyesnur]

I don't disagee that USF is probably taking market share...They'd be gone if they weren't. The fact is the pie gets divided smaller with each new serious entrant - but if total visitor figures to Orlando theme parks grow, meaning WDW see's more guests than previously (generally speaking), while USF see's even a larger number uptick and obviously a larger percentage increase, because of their new marketing, hotels & park additions, does this necessarily mean USF is catching Disney?

I'm not sure that was clear. Think of WDW drawing 1000 guests per year and owning 90% of the market while SW & USF each have 5%. The next year USF makes a big effort to gain ground and successfully increases their market share from 5% to 10%, knocking WDW's market share down to (say) 80%. This is ironical because although they only owned 80% of the market (versus 90% last year) they actully did increase to 1100 guests (versus 1000 las year). Good or bad? Certainly the upstart is 'catching' the established park at the low end of the curve but can it continue to follow this curve based on the posibilities of each particular Company?

[HB2K]

Originally posted by Eyesnur
If AK is a half day park then certainly IOA and US fare no better. Read some comments by those not pumping USF occasionally. ;)

Oh, btw, have you forgotten that AK still outdrew IOA and US last year? You guys conveniently forget this or rest on the 'wait until next year' line... :o

A) IOA is not a half a day park. They have not, to my knowledge, had the ammount of complaints regarding this topic as DAK has.

B) I don't care about people's comments or perceptions with regard to this arguement. From what I've read, IOA hasn't had the same ammount of guests complain that they feel rooked. The numbers speak, not what you or I think about the park itself (although just the attraction count proves your arguement wrong).

C) How many people attend DAK because they were forced to purchase a day for that park on their park hopper. Most people on vacation have no desire to visit the same park twice. Since you are forced to buy a minimum 4 day park hopper (unless you're crafty and can still find the three day) I'd be willing to bet whatever difference in attedance is reported between IOA & DAK is off set by this fact.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by raidermatt
Vs. 1997 numbers, AK added 7.3 million guests, while the other three parks lost 8.9 million. (MK lost 3 million, Epcot 3.5, and MGM 2.4)
1997? Let's get a little more up to date, 2001 attendance figures, here are the figures and the change from 2000:

Magic Kingdom: 14,700,00 -4%
EPCOT: 9,000,000 -15%
Disney/MGM Studios: 8,300,000 -6%
Animal Kingdom: 7,700,000 -7%
Universal Studios Orlando: 7,200,000 -10%
Islands of Adventure: 5,500,000 -8%

Hmmm, by those counts it seems that the loss was pretty even, but even Disney's "worst" park brought in more then 2,000,000 visitors then Univeral's "best" park.

But let's go even further into 2002:

Magic Kingdom: 14,000,000
Epcot: 8,300,000
Disney/MGM Studios: 8,000,000
Animal Kingdom: 7,300,000
Universal Studios Orlando: 6,900,000
Islands of Adventure: 6,100,000

Hmm... AK still outperformed by almost 1.5 million. Interesting....

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by HB2K
A) IOA is not a half a day park. They have not, to my knowledge, had the ammount of complaints regarding this topic as DAK has. It may not be a half day park, but you certainly don't need more then two days between both Universal parks.

C) How many people attend DAK because they were forced to purchase a day for that park on their park hopper. Most people on vacation have no desire to visit the same park twice. Since you are forced to buy a minimum 4 day park hopper (unless you're crafty and can still find the three day) I'd be willing to bet whatever difference in attedance is reported between IOA & DAK is off set by this fact. Just because you have a 4 day hopper pass, nobody has "forced" you to spend that 4th day or any day at Animal Kingdom.

[HB2K]

Actually Warner Brothers owns any attraction and characters rights to Harry Potter, they are already planning on building a theme land in their movie park in Australia. They have already had a "Harry Potter & the Chamber of Secrets Movie Experience". And Lord of the Rings is owned by New Line Features, whose parent company is AOL/Time Warner. So unless there is a merger in the future or some huge purchases in the works, Universal won't have a Harry Potter or LOTR attractions anytime soon.
It's my understanding that Universal Studios owns the domestic theme park rights for both the Lord of the Rings trilogy & the Harry Potter series. I do not know about international rights, or if the deal fell through.

Should they still own the rights to these theme park properties, doesn't anyone from the car 1/2 side think this is a scarry thing? What about Pixar? If they break off from Disney (and it's looking that way), where else can they shop their movie's theme park rights?

Maybe if the stars all line up correctly, Universal will have a rodent of their own.

Anyone else?

[pheneix]

>>>Universal won't have a Harry Potter or LOTR attractions anytime soon.<<<

Oh yes they will. It's a complicated issue (think of it like this: Universal owns the rights to the Charlie Brown characters in Japan, but in North America, Charile is at home in Cedar Fair's parks. When you put it in perspective like that things become a lot easier to understand), but the bottom line is that Universal is already drawing up an amazing plan to use both the Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings franchises*.

>>>1997? Let's get a little more up to date<<

Actually, if your are going for a market share comparison 1997 is the best year to start from, because that was the last year before Disney and Universal started adding more theme parks into the mix.

>>>Disney has Mickey's Philharmagic, Mission: SPACE, and the newly announced Animal Kingdom coaster. That sounds like expansion to me also.<<<

Two of which were replacements.

>>>These really aren't "additions" per se, just retooling of rides/shows that were already in place.<<<

The amount of ignorance on these boards astounds me...

*Can you say, "--- ----- ----"? I knew ya could!

[HB2K]

It may not be a half day park, but you certainly don't need more then two days between both Universal parks.
I don't think anyone's argued this point. But if people feel the Universal experince becomes a better value, I can see people making Universal's resort their homebase, and Disney starts fighting for the sloppy second one or two day stop overs.

Just because you have a 4 day hopper pass, nobody has "forced" you to spend that 4th day or any day at Animal Kingdom.

If Disney isn't trying to forcefully steer the customer to DAK, then why doesn't Disney adopt a daily park hopper? Why the minimum of a 4 day? Why did Disney increase the minimum purchasable ticket from 3 to 4 days when DAK opened?

Because most uninformed guests will use the last day to see something they haven't during the trip.

So either you force your guest to pay for a product they may not want, or you force them to pay for something twice. Either way you're forcing their hand.

[pheneix]

On a side note, is anyone here having problems with the boards in general? I'm having some freaky formatting errors when I am trying to load up a page here.

[DVC-Landbaron]

On a side note, is anyone here having problems with the boards in general?
Me too!!

[Bob O]

Both of Universal's parks were built from day one to be full day parks which is a departure from disney which intentionally built MGM/AK as half day parks with the promise of someday giving you a full days activity and knew they could get away with this due to the park hopper. This is why AK will get people to come to the park for a couple hours till they get bored and go someplace else.
As said before disney is content to rest on their laurels/good will built over the years and maybe give us something every now and then, at the same times as they close already open attractions in the park lile 20k/Hunchback. While the older generations who love disney will buy this i believe younger/upcoming generations will not genuflect at the altar of disney like some here will do!!
This will affect the companies bottom line till they put the proper amount of money/time/effort/creativity into the parks like they used too!!!

[Eyesnur]

I haven't noticed anything freaky at all and I usually type standing on my head, drinking rum and singing 'Fat Bottomed Girls'...But thats just me...I'll let you know if anything weird happens!;)

[pheneix]

"Fat Bottomed Girls?" If you like Queen then I guess you're not all evil... ;)

[Grand Canyon]

I don't know if this mean anything but we went to USF/IOA fall 2001 and loved it. My 2-DS both under 6 had fun (they loved the children’s areas). I am a die-hard WDW fan but this year instead of PAP we bought 30 day Fun in the Sun Passes and annual passes to USF/IOA. We will be in Kissimmee for the month of June and we plan to spend 20-30% of are time at USF/IOA. We will be spending as much time trying to get the Rug Rats, Scobby Do, Sponge Bob autographs as Mickey Mouse. USF/IOA is no WDW. I see no need to compare them. I have to admit that I was critical of the little things WDW does better but after awhile I was having so much fun I stopped looking for the little flaws. I think the main reason we tried USF/IO in the first place is that there had been very little new stuff at WDW for a few years. Also we got a 14 day pass to US/IOA, Sea World, Wet & Wild, and Bush Gardens for $200 each (2001) so for that price we gave it a try. The one thing I can say about USF/IO that could give WDW some problems is that USF/IO is in my opinion a better value for those who are trying to get a 5-7 day vacation on the cheep. Also these cheep APs will make USF lots of money from locals who will drop in for a few hours for diner and fun. Think about it I bought 4 APs to USF/IOA (with black out day that doesn’t affect my trip) for less than 1 child PAP to WDW. That has got to have some effect on WDW. We will not stop going to WDW (it is the best) but we will no longer be spending all are money there.

PS We went to DL fall 2000. The place was a dump!!! We hated it. Everything was so tread bare. We ask CMs what was up with the bad condition the park was in as we explained how beautiful WDW was. They told us “ this is no WDW”. We will never go back!!!!! The sad thing is we live only 7 hr. away from DL but will drive 38hrs to get to WDW.

[ChrisFL]

Originally posted by Eyesnur
Mickey Mouse is still Mickey Mouse. Shrek is forgotten already. Universal is building for now which is good for the consumer. They have what, 3 new announced attactions? Hey, so does WDW!

USF has two parks that are half day parks (by account of all except those Universal/IOA pumpers). WDW hs much, much more. WDW will continue to add attractions slowly, Universal will quickly run out of space.

Lastly, how many people go to USF for a whole week? Not many. The best case scenerio for USF is to continue to whittle a day or two from those WDW vacations. After that it's all about longevity. Winner? Disney by three lengths.

...Oh, one more thing. The parnership (I use the term loosely) between Blackstone & Vivendi has to be more complex than it appears otherwise why would Vivendi be holding it (it=a Universal that still can't service its debt) when they (Vivendi) so desperately need the cash?

Disney will add attractions slowly, like every 3 years, and that's assuming everything goes right and isn't plagued with problems (see Test Track and Rocket Rods).

It may not seem like it, but US and IOA have plenty of space to build new attractions, in fact there's enough property to the left of IOA to practically build another theme park, but they have 2,000 more acres for that. The extra property will probably have hotels, golf courses, etc. I'm guessing.

No people don't go to USF for a whole week...yet. If they build 2 more parks and several more resorts, some people will definitely spend their entire vacation there.

IMO, Disney needs to step up in a big way these next 10 years or they'll be hurting. And when I say step up, I don't mean building the fastest rollercoaster or whatever, but keeping up their attractions, making sure they are the best imagineers out there, and building to their customer base, not going into a thrill-ride war with UO.

But we all know that they got rid of many, many imagineers and CM's so far and don't seem to be stopping anytime soon. Meanwhile UO is gaining a lot of them, and that improves their edge on the customer experience.

One main problem in philosophy between Disney and UO is that Disney wants to rule everything, your entire vacation, and UO does not need anyone to spend a week to make money, they don't have hundreds of thousands of hotel rooms to try to fill up constantly. They are happy if people spend 2 or 3 days away from other parks. That's 2-3 days per family that UO gains and Disney loses.

I guess you could consider that UO has lower "overhead" than Disney right now.

[ChrisFL]

Originally posted by Grand Canyon
PS We went to DL fall 2000. The place was a dump!!! We hated it. Everything was so tread bare. We ask CMs what was up with the bad condition the park was in as we explained how beautiful WDW was. They told us “ this is no WDW”. We will never go back!!!!! The sad thing is we live only 7 hr. away from DL but will drive 38hrs to get to WDW.

To be fair, Universal Studios Hollywood is no Universal Orlando either from what I've heard

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by pheneix
The amount of ignorance on these boards astounds me...
There is no need for a personal attack.

Two of which were replacements. Really? Only one by my count. Mickey's Philharmagic is taking over the space that the Lion King show once was in. The other two are going to be attractions built from the bottom up. Both Universal shows, Neutron and Shrek are using show elements that are already in place in their old shows.

but the bottom line is that Universal is already drawing up an amazing plan to use both the Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings franchises We should all be so priveliged to have all the "inside" scoop on future unannounced attractions that you have.

Actually, if your are going for a market share comparison 1997 is the best year to start from, because that was the last year before Disney and Universal started adding more theme parks into the mix. Ummm what? I think we are both making the same point. I never said that 1997 wasn't a good year to start, I simply posted some attendance figures from the two most recent years.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by HB2K
If Disney isn't trying to forcefully steer the customer to DAK, then why doesn't Disney adopt a daily park hopper? Why the minimum of a 4 day? Why did Disney increase the minimum purchasable ticket from 3 to 4 days when DAK opened?
Because there now happen to be 4 parks. But again I don't see Michael Eisner holding a gun to a guests head telling them that they HAVE to go to Animal Kingdom. Taking your reasoning into effect, suppose that Disney only offered a 3 day hopper, the "uninformed" public would end up shelling out more money to pay for a one day pass to the 4th park of their choice if they do decide to go to a 4th park.

So either you force your guest to pay for a product they may not want, or you force them to pay for something twice. Either way you're forcing their hand. So is that why Universal doesn't offer any type of hopper pass? :rolleyes: So your forced to either buy another one day pass or their second day/second park pass.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by ChrisFL
No people don't go to USF for a whole week...yet. If they build 2 more parks and several more resorts, some people will definitely spend their entire vacation there.
I'm left wondering what "theme" Universal could do next, without seeming like they are taking a que from Disney. Another thrill park? Why? When they could expand on IOA. An animal park? No. Not after the inital horror show of Animal Kingdom. An educational park? Epcot anyone? I'm not trying to make an attack, just wondering where they could go.

[Grand Canyon]

We went to USH in 1990 we were not very impressed. We spent the day and have never gone back. All I can remember about it was that it seemed very small.:confused:

[ChrisFL]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan
I'm left wondering what "theme" Universal could do next, without seeming like they are taking a que from Disney. Another thrill park? Why? When they could expand on IOA. An animal park? No. Not after the inital horror show of Animal Kingdom. An educational park? Epcot anyone? I'm not trying to make an attack, just wondering where they could go.

Well, there was talk of a western themed park a few years ago, or something similar...Yes, UO does have ideas that started from Disney, but that's what happens when UO is able to hire ex-imagineers. Disney has also done things that started with UO as well, namely MGM Studios, which was created as an attempt to outdo USF before it opened.

There are also some other interesting similarities, like CTX/Dinosaur vs. JP, and the Portofino Bay in TDS, vs. Portofino Bay at UO.

I really can't predict what will come next, but LOTR or Harry Potter is just 2 things they could make parts of a park on. I really don't know if they would do another park just like IOA.

I think they could do a futuristic theme park without looking like EPCOT, which really has lost what it used to be IMO.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by pheneix

Oh yes they will. It's a complicated issue (think of it like this: Universal owns the rights to the Charlie Brown characters in Japan, but in North America, Charile is at home in Cedar Fair's parks. When you put it in perspective like that things become a lot easier to understand), but the bottom line is that Universal is already drawing up an amazing plan to use both the Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings franchises*.
From what I have found in some research is that Warner Brothers have exclusive rights to everything Harry Potter including foreign and domestic rights. And also that New Line Cinema has the same exclusive rights to LOTR, althought Fine Line Features (a division of New Line) holds most of the franchising rights, Fine Line having collaborated with Miramax (a division of Buena Vista pictures) on quite a few projects. So with that said, good we see "Beastly Kingdom" transformed into a LOTR area?

[ChrisFL]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan
From what I have found in some research is that Warner Brothers have exclusive rights to everything Harry Potter including foreign and domestic rights. And also that New Line Cinema has the same exclusive rights to LOTR, althought Fine Line Features (a division of New Line) holds most of the franchising rights, Fine Line having collaborated with Miramax (a division of Buena Vista pictures) on quite a few projects. So with that said, good we see "Beastly Kingdom" transformed into a LOTR area?

This quote came from JimHillMedia.com (quote I found on the USO boards)

" Speaking of Peter Jackson: Here's one reason that Disney's infamous Imagineers envy the folks at Universal Creative: Universal has the theme park rights to use all of J.R.R. Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" characters to build new shows and rides around. And here's another reason why Mickey gets jealous whenever anyone ever brings up Universal: You know J.K. Rowling's highly popular "Harry Potter" series. Universal Studios has the theme park rights to all of those characters as well. "

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by ChrisFL
Well, there was talk of a western themed park a few years ago, or something similar...Yes, UO does have ideas that started from Disney, but that's what happens when UO is able to hire ex-imagineers. Disney has also done things that started with UO as well, namely MGM Studios, which was created as an attempt to outdo USF before it opened.
Actually MGM Studios was first announced in 1985, Universal Studios Orlando was announced in 1986.

This quote came from JimHillMedia.com (quote I found on the USO boards) Interesting. Conflicting stories. What a shocker! Guess we will have to search more on this one.

[ChrisFL]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan
Actually MGM Studios was first announced in 1985, Universal Studios Orlando was announced in 1986.

Yes, but the plans were laid out in ~1982 I believe. They had the property bought for a LONG time before they began anything

[HauntedMansionFan]

The only thing I can find about Harry Potter is that Warner Brothers do indeed have the exclusive rights, their parent company being AOL/Time Warner. But after having sold off their theme park division to Premier, thus allowing more Six Flags parks. So it is questionable that we will ever see Harry Potter in any theme park manifestation on these shores, unless Warner strikes some deal with Universal, much like how Dreamworks subcontracts to Universal.

Here is the other rub. New Line has exclusive rights over Lord of the Rings, one of the executive producers of LOTR is Harvey Weinstein the head honcho of Miramax (a subdivision of Buena Vista pictures) so there is an "in" for Disney. But then again, either company obtaining the sole rights for their park would come with quite a hefty price tag.

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan
Because there now happen to be 4 parks. But again I don't see Michael Eisner holding a gun to a guests head telling them that they HAVE to go to Animal Kingdom. Taking your reasoning into effect, suppose that Disney only offered a 3 day hopper, the "uninformed" public would end up shelling out more money to pay for a one day pass to the 4th park of their choice if they do decide to go to a 4th park.

So is that why Universal doesn't offer any type of hopper pass? :rolleyes: So your forced to either buy another one day pass or their second day/second park pass.

We used hopper passes at the Universal parks last week and they have quite a few variations. They offer two day hoppers, two day hoppers with a third day free and the 5 consecutive days hoppers. We got the 5 consecutive days hoppers and used three days which was still a good deal with each costing under $90.

By the way, Jim Hill has reported that Universal does have the LOTR and Harry Potter rights http://www.jimhillmedia.com/nav4/index.htm?../articles/08142002.1.htm~contentFrame I guess that only time will tell.

[EUROPA]

Universal does have theme park rights to LOTR and HP.


Speaking of Peter Jackson: Here's one reason that Disney's infamous Imagineers envy the folks at Universal Creative: Universal has the theme park rights to use all of J.R.R. Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" characters to build new shows and rides around. And here's another reason why Mickey gets jealous whenever anyone ever brings up Universal: You know J.K. Rowling's highly popular "Harry Potter" series. Universal Studios has the theme park rights to all of those characters as well.




http://www.jimhillmedia.com/nav4/index.htm?../articles/08142002.1.htm~contentFrame

[Planogirl]

GMTA Europa. ;)

[EUROPA]

Yeah I guess so. :)

In fact the rumor that I heard has a very large castle as the centerpiece of Universal's Third Park.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Planogirl
By the way, Jim Hill has reported that Universal does have the LOTR and Harry Potter rights http://www.jimhillmedia.com/nav4/index.htm?../articles/08142002.1.htm~contentFrame I guess that only time will tell. So because it was reported by the Jim Hill media it must be true. :rolleyes: Besides Jim Hill or the site itself what information do they have to back up that claim?

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Planogirl
We used hopper passes at the Universal parks last week and they have quite a few variations. They offer two day hoppers, two day hoppers with a third day free and the 5 consecutive days hoppers. We got the 5 consecutive days hoppers and used three days which was still a good deal with each costing under $90.
How long has the 5 consecutive days been around? I don't remember seeing that when I was there in January. The problem that I see with the Universal tickets though is that it appears that the days expire on them. So what happens if you buy the 5 day pass and only use one day on it? Do the days expire?

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan
How long has the 5 consecutive days been around? I don't remember seeing that when I was there in January. The problem that I see with the Universal tickets though is that it appears that the days expire on them. So what happens if you buy the 5 day pass and only use one day on it? Do the days expire?

I don't know how long it's been around, I spotted it on the Universal website just a few months ago. And yes, it is restrictive in that the days do expire if I understand it right. Which seems to be why a lot of people are going for the annual power pass at just about $100 but I don't like this one because the dates are restricted. If I could go again within a year, I would have gotten the unrestricted annual pass for $150 which also includes a lot of discounts. I liked the 5 day pass because even if I went for only two days, I still saved money and I could park hop. Plus we could use the Universal Express feature which was nice with some of the more popular attractions like MIB and BTTF.

As far as Jim Hill being correct or not, I do tend to have a lot of faith in his reports but of course he isn't infallible which is why I stated that only time will tell.

[HB2K]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan
Because there now happen to be 4 parks. But again I don't see Michael Eisner holding a gun to a guests head telling them that they HAVE to go to Animal Kingdom. Taking your reasoning into effect, suppose that Disney only offered a 3 day hopper, the "uninformed" public would end up shelling out more money to pay for a one day pass to the 4th park of their choice if they do decide to go to a 4th park.

So is that why Universal doesn't offer any type of hopper pass? :rolleyes: So your forced to either buy another one day pass or their second day/second park pass.

Not meant to be a personal attack, but if you don't know what you're talking about shouldn't you look it up before making these statements?

A) I only want to spend one day of my vacation in each park. If I want Park Hopping privledges, I am FORCED to either purchase a day @ DAK or I am FORCED to spend another day in the same park....which is what I didn't want to do. Either way Disney is forcefully getting another admission from it's customer.

B) Universal DOES offer a 2 or 3 day park hopper pass. :rolleyes:

[HB2K]

Really? Only one by my count. Mickey's Philharmagic is taking over the space that the Lion King show once was in. The other two are going to be attractions built from the bottom up. Both Universal shows, Neutron and Shrek are using show elements that are already in place in their old shows.
Mission:Space is a replacement for Horizons. AS with the Mission:Space replacement of Horizons, it's my understanding that the Shrek attraction has ZERO remenants of the Hitchcock attraction.

[HB2K]

I'm left wondering what "theme" Universal could do next, without seeming like they are taking a que from Disney. Another thrill park? Why? When they could expand on IOA. An animal park? No. Not after the inital horror show of Animal Kingdom. An educational park? Epcot anyone? I'm not trying to make an attack, just wondering where they could go.
If one was so inclined, I could think of ways to make a whole park around one movie.

Lord of the rings, with all of it's detailed worlds, could make quite a park.

How long has the 5 consecutive days been around? I don't remember seeing that when I was there in January. The problem that I see with the Universal tickets though is that it appears that the days expire on them. So what happens if you buy the 5 day pass and only use one day on it? Do the days expire?
I could be wrong, but my understanding of the park hoppers at Universal is the unused "paid for" days do not expire.

If you purchase a 2 day park hopper, and you get a third day for free and you use one day, the free day expires within 7 days, but the paid for second day does not.

On this I could be wrong, so I'll wait for someone else to confirm it.

So because it was reported by the Jim Hill media it must be true. Besides Jim Hill or the site itself what information do they have to back up that claim?
How are you backing up your claim?

[DisneyKidds]

I'm not a U/IOA pumper and in fact have never been there, nor do I really have the desire to expend the necessary effort to leave WDW and go there.
Thank you, Matt, for the most significant point in this entire discussion. How can anyone believe that Universal has caught up when even those who find most fault with Disney can't be lured to the Universal offerings? If Universal had caught up in most (forget all) market segments and is doing things so much better than Disney, how come you aren't beating down the USF/IOA doors?
But to their audience, U/IoA is not considered 2 1/2 day parks. Much of Disney's audience, however, consders AK to be a 1/2 day park.
You are are shaky ground here. First off, you yourself point out that USF or IOA don't provide enough compelling attractions to even make them half day parks for many. To you, and to many more, they are no day parks. The number of people that go to Disney and not to Universal while in Orlando is probably huge. The number that go to Universal and not to Disney............how small do yo think that one is? That says an awful lot.

As for how many of whose guest think in terms of half day..................... I think you overstate when you say 'much' of Disney's audience when it comes to AK. What do you have to base that on? A relatively small group on an internet bulletin board? Furthermore, what is your basis for concluding that some/most/all (?) of Universal's audience doesn't consider the parks 'less than full day'? Not like you have anywhere near the number of people talking on line about these parks (which also says a lot, doesn't it ;)). Bottom line is that I'm sure there are just as many people who would consider these parks 'half day' (for whatever their reason) as you will find at any other park - and that ignores the people who flat out have no desire to even show up.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by HB2K
Mission:Space is a replacement for Horizons. AS with the Mission:Space replacement of Horizons, it's my understanding that the Shrek attraction has ZERO remenants of the Hitchcock attraction. Replacement and retooling are completely different things. Mission: SPACE is replacing where Horizons was, but the building was completely demolished and started from scratch on the ground up. Shrek is going into a pre-fab building that is just being customized to accompany the new special effects. Cost saving measure? Yes. But I feel then that Universal is limiting themselves on this particular attraction, by not being able to provide a new space for this show they are limiting themselves to a certain available space.

If one was so inclined, I could think of ways to make a whole park around one movie. I don't think that anyone would make a park exclusively to one movie. The demographic factors just aren't there, not everyone is in to the fantasy genre.

How are you backing up your claim? This is from a Theme Park insider trade magazine: Warner Brothers is also reported to be looking into designing a Harry Potter theme park.

HARRY POTTER, characters, names and related indicia and WARNER BROS.,
shield logo and related indicia are trademarks of Warner Bros. TM & © 2003.
Harry Potter Publishing Rights © J.K.R. This was pulled from the WB movie site.

It is all in a matter of where you look or who you talk to, everyone has a different story and a different "source", so until an official statement or announcement is made, I'm not holding my breath.

Universal DOES offer a 2 or 3 day park hopper pass. Is that something new also? When I was there in January they only had Annual Passes and one day passes, but you could purchase a second day/second park pass while you were in either of the parks. I didn't see anything about hopper passes, as I would have picked one up. Why? I'm not a fan of the studios, but I sure would have liked to skip some of the stuff at IOA to do the few things I like at the Studios.

[crusader]

Shrek is going into a pre-fab building that is just being customized to accompany the new special effects. Cost saving measure? Yes. But I feel then that Universal is limiting themselves on this particular attraction, by not being able to provide a new space for this show they are limiting themselves to a certain available space.

Why is this? Does the park have buildout limitations or is it to streamline the contruction by using an existing permitted facility. UO has an entirely different set of rules and regs to comply with than WDW.

How can anyone believe that Universal has caught up when even those who find most fault with Disney can't be lured to the Universal offerings? If Universal had caught up in most (forget all) market segments and is doing things so much better than Disney, how come you aren't beating down the USF/IOA doors?

They haven't caught up in terms of magnitude but they have been successfully drawing from the same market segment. They do provide attractions which are extremely competitive in terms of design and effects - and yes, families are splitting their vacation time between the two venues more and more.

But no, UO will probably never surpass WDW in scope and capacity - they are much too limited.

[DisneyKidds]

They haven't caught up in terms of magnitude but they have been successfully drawing from the same market segment.
Sure, it is inevitable that they will attract some people from the same market segments, but were talking about catching up here. I just don't see it.
UO will probably never surpass WDW in scope and capacity - they are much too limited.
Limited how? In terms of acreage for new venues? I'll give you that. However, we can look past that to see whether Universal has successfully caught up. Take Disney's best park vs. Universal's. That precludes the limitations of which you speak, yet Universal isn't in the same ballpark. The best Universal can hope for is that their best park will pick off Disney's worst. That hardly screams 'caught up in all market segments' to me.

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by Eyesnur
I haven't noticed anything freaky at all and I usually type standing on my head, drinking rum and singing 'Fat Bottomed Girls'...But thats just me...I'll let you know if anything weird happens!;)
Mr. Eyesnur - a quick question for you - check your PM.

[crusader]

However, we can look past that to see whether Universal has successfully caught up. Take Disney's best park vs. Universal's.

Which two are these? I will assume MK vs IOA. In this example, MK wins by a landslide in quantity. Now take a look at quality.

There are comparable excellences in JP and Splash.

There are no comparables against Spiderman - unless you are considering the technology of yesterday in HM or PoC with the tech of today - which may be a stretch.

Space Mountain vs Hulk? Jury is out on this one.
What about Dueling Dragons - vs???? BTMRR - not really the same at all.

Fantasyland? Here you've got me. No match from IOA

Mickeys toontown vs Suess Island? IOA wins

In trying to apply this, I think the truth is you can't really do it. UO may actually be providing competition utilizing a two park framework against a threepark approach from WDW. (EPCOT cannot fit in this formula)
In this regard, no they have not caught up. The real question is - can they and will they eventually develop into that dynamic?

[LIFERBABE]

Last June we spent a week of vacation in Florida. We had every intention of making WDW our major destination and US/IOA a side trip.

We purchased AP's for US/IOA for $99 and 4-day Hopper passes for WDW at twice the cost.

With the reduced hours WDW had at that time and it being our first time to MK, Epcot and MGM with 2 small children, I knew it would be close to impossible to "hop" from park to park if we were'nt there when the park was open. We don't like to open the parks and prefer to have leisurely mornings when on vacation.
US/IOA had reduced operating hours also, but since we had AP's we could go as much as we pleased and not have to worry about using "days" on our hoppers and not really hopping. I felt like we should have just bought day passes because if you can't hop you've spent the additional money for nothing.

I know WDW has 4 parks and US has 2, but 2 is about all the hopping we could do in 1 day anyway, and since US you can walk to either park it makes it more conducive to hopping than having to take transp. to another park.

We ended up going to US/IOA 4 days of our vacation and MK 1 day. We really enjoyed US. My boys were 3 and 5 yrs and they were thrilled to see Spidey, Rugrats and Spongebob, Scooby Doo, Curious George, and all the characters from Nickelodeon.

We are set to return and know we will visit both parks.
We found the food and souvenirs to be much more reasonable at US than at WDW. We had a great time at MK and the boys enjoyed that also. I do think that if US continues to offer an affordable alternative to WDW and provide nicer accomodations and perks that they will continue to gain, but never eclipse WDW. I still say "we're going to WDW" and my boys liken the entire experience both WDW and US/IOA to that statement.

Kinda like calling a cotton swab a Q-Tip.

[DisneyKidds]

Which two are these? I will assume MK vs IOA. In this example, MK wins by a landslide in quantity. Now take a look as quality.
Forget quantily. Forget quality. While I've never been, I'll stipulate that UO has some darn good stuff. They have made gains. They will probably make more. However, if they were to 'catch up in all market segment' would that not mean that they would attract an equal number of quests? All of UO (that would be both USF and IOA combined) doesn't outdraw the MK. How can that be if Universal's offerings have caught Disney in every market segment?

[crusader]

However, if they were to 'catch up in all market segment' would that not mean that they would attract an equal number of quests?

Not unless you are defining market segment as market share here. The park can be substantially less in size and offer all of the same things but simply could never accomodate an equal number of guests.

Arguably, you are absolutely right - UO has not caught up. But they have taken some of that market share and will continue to attract more and more guests. You cannot simply dismiss the probability that at some future point the number of guests may be surprisingly comparable on any given day.

[DisneyKidds]

The park can be substantially less in size and offer all of the same things but simply could never accomodate an equal number of guests.
True enough I suppose. How does IOA or USF compare size wise to the MK? Is either one 'substantially less in size'. How about USF and IOA combined vs. MK. Not to belabor the point, but is the size of the UO parks what is holding their attendance down?
You cannot simply dismiss the probability that at some future point the number of guests may be surprisingly comparable on any given day.
Not dsimissing anything. I may not think it will happen, but I can't outright dismiss the notion. However, as you point out it is nowhere near happening yet. I suppose some will say that attendance is in no way reflective of performance by market segment, but I don't see how that could be.

[crusader]

Is either one 'substantially less in size'. How about USF and IOA combined vs. MK. Not to belabor the point, but is the size of the UO parks what is holding their attendance down?

Probably not. My size comparison was in total not on a park by park basis. The attendance could have something to do with magnitude and perception. UO is predominantly considered to be a one-two day trip. WDW is a planned vacation usually encompassing a week or more. Disney guests buy longer tickets but may only go into the parks for a brief time each day which actually counts in raw data but not in real attendance.

Which begs the can they really catch up question? Not in my view and never in this capacity. But this may not be necessary as long as they successfully detract visitors; continue to generate appeal and turn a healthy profit. Everything will weigh in - especially visitors and money.

[raidermatt]

They do make the rockin' world go 'round...

1997? Let's get a little more up to date, 2001 attendance figures, here are the figures and the change from 2000: I used 1997 because Mr. Eyesnur stated he thought 5 years was indicitive of a trend, and that a one year comparison was largely meaningless. If you have a disagreement, it is with him, not me.

Now, you are right that the drop from 2000 to 2001 was almost equal. Now, on to 2002.

Hmm... AK still outperformed by almost 1.5 million. Interesting.... It outperformed USF by 400k, and IoA by 1.2 million. But what is actually interesting is that for 2000 to 2001, you highlighted the percentage change, but for 2002, you ignored the percentage change and only posted the raw difference.

Why? (Its ok, we all know, but I'm just giving you the chance to say it...;) )

Mission:Space is a replacement for Horizons. Just repeating this from HB2K because it seems this fact was lost on some folks for much of this conversation.

Thank you, Matt, for the most significant point in this entire discussion. How can anyone believe that Universal has caught up when even those who find most fault with Disney can't be lured to the Universal offerings?

Well, 2 points on this one:

1- While it may sound like I have an overblown sense of self-importance, I realize that I am only one person, and my family is only one family. Further, the fault I find is with Disney's DIRECTION, and not so much as where they are right now.


2- I know you were distracted by the fairy business, but its important to remember by original post, where I said Universal has NOT caught up to WDW in all areas. I wasn't willing to breakdown the age groups and make predictions though. I did say they have GAINED in families, but that the gap was huge to begin with, meaning they have not caught-up.

Clearly Universal has not caught-up in all market segments, or they would be drawing at least as many people as WDW on a per park basis. Again, my concern is over trends and direction. I realize the AB numbers do no provide absolute proof that WDW is experiencing negative growth due to their own decisions, however, they do at least hint that WDW may have a problem besides those caused by outside factors.

Since attendance is a "lag" indicator, waiting for WDW's attendance to actually fall below Universals will mean waiting until it maybe too late to do anything about it.

You are are shaky ground here. First off, you yourself point out that USF or IOA don't provide enough compelling attractions to even make them half day parks for many. To you, and to many more, they are no day parks. Hopefully this is more clear now, but just in case... My family, as well as those we travel with, are pretty much in what one would consider the "family market". As I've said, Universal has most certainly not caught Disney in this area. Further, we are "Disney people", who have that long history with Disney's films and parks. If Disney ever loses us, and those like us in significant enough numbers, they are through.

But for those more in-line with Universal's target, locals, teens, etc, USF and IoA are very good parks. Whereas Disney's target for AK, families, find it to be less than stellar (talking big picture, not what you or I think). That's why I said for their audiences, Universal's parks are not 1/2 day, while for its audience, AK is largely considered a 1/2 day park (not saying that is a technically correct description, only what it has been labeled...though I do think on pure attraction counts, IoA has more...not completely sure though)

The number of people that go to Disney and not to Universal while in Orlando is probably huge. The number that go to Universal and not to Disney............how small do yo think that one is? That says an awful lot. Yes, it says that Disney still has far more market share than Universal. But again, direction and trends is what we should be concerned with. Not saying that we have absolute proof that those are negative for Disney, but just that they should at least be raising some doubt.

I think you overstate when you say 'much' of Disney's audience when it comes to AK. What do you have to base that on? A relatively small group on an internet bulletin board? We've been through this before, but AK's attendance started out lower than the other three parks and has fallen each year, with its decline surpassed only by Epcot. It closes no later than 7pm, and frequently 5pm, without squaking from guests. It no longer even opens earlier than 9am. Before the return of a parade, the place emptied out by mid-afternoon.

Again, the reasons are a separate discussion that we have already had, but I can't see how I am over-stating its failure to strike the chord with the Disney's guests that was intended.

[DisneyKidds]

Which begs the can they really catch up question?
How about this question. I know how Baron really loves these types of 'if pigs could fly' deals, but..............................

Strip everything away from WDW except for the MK. No resorts, no other venues, no other parks. Just the MK. Do the same for Universal. Strip it down to just IOA. Which park is going to get more one day visitors.

Strip UO down to USF only. Which gets more one day visitors?

Heck, even combine IOA and USF. Which gets more one day visitors, the MK or the combined USF/IOA?

[raidermatt]

Hey DK, no arguments from me on the MK thing.

From a Disney-centric point of view, I'm just concerned that Universal does seem to be poised to pass AK with at least one of its parks, and is showing signs of gaining on the other three as well.

As Eyesnur pointed out, Disney getting a smaller percentage of the pie isn't necessarily all bad as long as the pie increases enough to allow Disney to grow... but that's where the questions start.

[DisneyKidds]

Well, 3 points on this one:
I saw 1. I saw 2. Dis I miss a point ;).
I know you were distracted by the fairy business, but its important to remember by original post, where I said Universal has NOT caught up to WDW in all areas.
No distraction Matt, I know you have gone on record that UO hasn't caught up. My question was really for those who think they have.
My family, as well as those we travel with, are pretty much in what one would consider the "family market".
As I pointed out in my initial post, this is really the only market that Disney is in. I only broke it down further to try and get some discussion going. Didn't work completely though. The guy who made the 'caught up' statement has decided not to play. Hmmmmmm............wonder why? Could it be because he was WRONG!!!!! We all say things we know to be wrong in the heat of a discussion I suppose ;).
But for those more in-line with Universal's target, locals, teens, etc, USF and IoA are very good parks. Whereas Disney's target for AK, families, find it to be less than stellar (talking big picture, not what you or I think). That's why I said for their audiences, Universal's parks are not 1/2 day,
Sorry Matt, that ground ain't any firmer ;). Sure, for those who like what IOA has to offer it is not a half day park. Guess what, for those who like what AK has to offer it isn't either. I'm sure not every one of those 6+ mil that walked thru the IOA gates in 2002 thought the park was stellar. At AK they had 7+ mil walk through the gates and it would be a good bet that an equal or larger percentage of those people thought AK was as stellar as the IOA guests found their park. Why? I bet you that a good portion of those Disney guests who consider the AK a half day don't bother to go in the first place.

[raidermatt]

I saw 1. I saw 2. Did I miss a point Doh! Wasn't fast enough with the edit trigger...

I'm sure not every one of those 6+ mil that walked thru the IOA gates in 2002 thought the park was stellar. At AK they had 7+ mil walk through the gates and it would be a good bet that an equal or larger percentage of those people thought AK was as stellar as the IOA guests found their park. Why? I bet you that a good portion of those Disney guests who consider the AK a half day don't bother to go in the first place. Again, I know we don't have all the info, but isn't AK's drop every year, at a rate faster than MK and MGM, despite the addition of various attractions, possibly indicitive of some dis-satisfaction on the part of WDW's guests?

I know the attendance numbers we have are not perfect, but they are all we have, and they have been used to show the upside to Disney in the past. And they seem to show IoA is not suffering the same attendance degradation as AK, which leads me to believe there is a better than 50/50 chance they are doing a better job of appealing to their customers than AK is to Disney's customers.

[HB2K]

Replacement and retooling are completely different things. Mission: SPACE is replacing where Horizons was, but the building was completely demolished and started from scratch on the ground up. Shrek is going into a pre-fab building that is just being customized to accompany the new special effects. Cost saving measure? Yes. But I feel then that Universal is limiting themselves on this particular attraction, by not being able to provide a new space for this show they are limiting themselves to a certain available space.
Disney planned on re-using the Horizon's building just as UO did with Shrek. The problem was the Horizon's building was in such disrepair they had to demolish it and start from scratch.

No distraction Matt, I know you have gone on record that UO hasn't caught up. My question was really for those who think they have.
Reading through this thread, I think I may have misstated my opinion (or it's changing).

I don't think UO has caught up to WDW in ALL market segments. I do think they have made gains, or taken away outright certain segments, but in the over all picture WDW is still the Orlando Leader.

I can honestly say I see UO strategically taking one segment after another. They've taken the teens. They've either taken or will take the Locals & APers. What's next? I'd guess the tweens (Shrek & Neutron seem to be aimed right at them). The families will probably be the hardest & longest battle fought. But with a stable that includes Harry Potter, LOR, and other future properties (just imagine Pixar's future stuff here*) the future looks bright at UO.

[HB2K]

Sorry Matt, that ground ain't any firmer . Sure, for those who like what IOA has to offer it is not a half day park. Guess what, for those who like what AK has to offer it isn't either. I'm sure not every one of those 6+ mil that walked thru the IOA gates in 2002 thought the park was stellar.
Kidds,

IOA has not had the well documented troubles with guest expectations that DAK has with regards to how their guests view their park.

While I will agree that not everyone who went through the gates LOVED IOA, I doubt the complaints were than there wasn't enough to do.

[Bob O]

Disney has a history os trying to save money and re-use buildings/reide mechanism. For instance look at Buzz Lightyear at MK. They could have built a excellant ride like USF did with MIB, but no they did it on the cheap by using the old ride mechanism and made a very mildly amusing ride with bright colors and cheap cutouts with nothing interactive like MIB is!!!
And while Space Mountain is a decent ride to compare it to the Hulk is a major joke!!!!!!
I would agree with HB2K that disney does have advantage at this time but while they are on the downhill spiral i find USF to be going uphill in the manner that disney used to do!!

[DisneyKidds]

Again, I know we don't have all the info, but isn't AK's drop every year, at a rate faster than MK and MGM, despite the addition of various attractions, possibly indicitive of some dis-satisfaction on the part of WDW's guests?
Maybe. I don't really know. I try and stay away from the attendance figure game as I'm not that confident making ststements either way based on such numbers.

[pheneix]

>>>HMF seems to be correct in his description of the announced attractions between the two parks.<<<

Actually, he's only correct in his description of Jimmy Neutron. The ONLY component of Hitchcock that Shrek 4D is using is the old projection cabinet for the previous theater. EVERYTHING else in portion of the building that Shrek is using has been gutted and will be rebuilt from the ground up.

>>>All I can remember about it was that it seemed very small.<<<

It was. All of the recent major additions have been at the bottom of the valley that is accesible by a VERY LONG escalator (except for Terminator and Shrek).

>>>Actually MGM Studios was first announced in 1985, Universal Studios Orlando was announced in 1986.<<<

I don't know the exact years (I want to say 1984 and 1985), but USF was announced before MGM. USF had also been on the drawing boards for a VERY long time, with it having been first conceptualized before the Magic Kingdom in Florida opened.

BTW, a lot of people have called down on me for using the term "ignorance" as a response to the Pro-Disney camp's arguments against Universal. I'm not making any apologies, because it is quite clear that many of these arguments are STILL based on stereotypes and twisted facts ("Shrek 4D is a retoolment of Hitchcock" "Hardly any of Universal's on-site guests STAY on property" (actually, a 1/3 of Universal's guests DO stay on property and do not leave for ANY other attractions in Orlando. It has been well documented in the Orlando Sentinel if anyone pays an arm and a leg go through the archives)).

And for the LAST TIME, Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are coming to Universal Orlando. In the case of LOTR, I think it is pretty safe to say that they will NEVER be a part of Disney as long as Michael Eisner is in charge thanks to the bad blood there.

[All Aboard]

actually, a 1/3 of Universal's guests DO stay on property and do not leave for ANY other attractions in Orlando Assuming that there is no double counting of guests (ie, only one turnstile click per person per day counts) then there are approximately 13million UO guests per year. That's an average of 35,600 per day.

There are 2400 on-site rooms. Assuming an average party size of 3 guests (4 is the maximum in most rooms), the resorts can accomodate 7200 guests per day. Even at 100% occupancy, the Universal resorts can only hold 20% of the total UO guests. So, it seems 1/3 is a bit inflated.

[PatriciaH]

I went to US once when I was about 23- I have never been back. I liked it ok but it was no Disney park. I have never been to IOA. I like thrill rides fine but no where near as much as rides like HM, Spaceship Earth or Pirates:) DH hates coasters like Hulk and Dueling Dragons so the only thing we would really go to IOA to see would be Spiderman and I don't think I want to pay $50 each to see one ride. We are both 32-no kids. Our friend (24) went to IOA and hated it. He said the rides/themeing/ques were ok but nowhere near the quality of TOT, Splash, HM, etc.. He told us don't bother going. We will probably go and judge for ourselves at some point.

Even at 32 the Disney parks, movies and characters still have a lot of good memories associated with them for us. I really don't get that warm fuzzy feeling from Shreck or Jimmy Neutron even though I liked those movies! I just don't see how you can compare Mickey and Jimmy-sorry.

We just got back from WDW on Tuesday night. Monday night there were little kids in front of us on Pirates (6-7) with their jaws hanging open while they pointed at sceens the whole time. Even the old Disney rides still have that "magic."

I can spend a day in ANY of the Disney parks, never go on a ride and feel like I have got my moneys worth. Just looking at the pictures of the outdoor steel roller coaster at IOA makes me grossed out. Too 6 Flags if you ask me. Lost Continent looks great. Toon Lagoon-cheap o rama -like Dino O Rama another stinker if you ask me:)

We also went to Disneyland for the 1st time in 2000 and I was surprised at how beautiful I found the park. Again it just had that MAGIC! I am open minded and love amusement parks. I love reading about Coney Island and P. Park and even Fredomland. I will give IOA and US a chance but I can never see them being on a par with WDW or DL.

[pheneix]

>>>Even at 100% occupancy, the Universal resorts can only hold 20% of the total UO guests. So, it seems 1/3 is a bit inflated.<<<

Yeah, I should have clarified that*. What I mean't to say is that 1/3 of Universal's onsite guests stay on property and do not venture off until their visit is over.

>>>We all post things like this that are inaccurate now and then. It doesn't mean we are ignorant or misleading. It just proves we are human.<<<

That's true, but a lot of what I have been pointing out as "ignorance" are "facts" being put out by people who probably wouldn't give Universal a chance anyway (and many of these "facts" seem to have been pointed from a Marcie frame of mind to boot).

* And I shouldn't post when pressed for time either, but that is another point entirely. ;)

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by raidermatt

I used 1997 because Mr. Eyesnur stated he thought 5 years was indicitive of a trend, and that a one year comparison was largely meaningless. If you have a disagreement, it is with him, not me.

Now, you are right that the drop from 2000 to 2001 was almost equal. Now, on to 2002.

It outperformed USF by 400k, and IoA by 1.2 million. But what is actually interesting is that for 2000 to 2001, you highlighted the percentage change, but for 2002, you ignored the percentage change and only posted the raw difference.

Why? (Its ok, we all know, but I'm just giving you the chance to say it...;) )

I didn't post the percentage as I could find any sites that listed a percentage change. But now that I have found one for 2002 I think you will be pleasantly surprised raidermatt... I didn't skip over it because the numbers favored Universal over Disney, it is quite the opposite actually.

Percentage change for 2002 (just for raidermatt ;) )

Magic Kingdom -4%
Epcot -15%
MGM Studios -6%
Animal Kingdom -7%
Universal Studios Orlando -10%
Islands of Adventure -8%

So there you go raidermatt... I took the time to find them, and I think they still show the trend that Disney still holds better attendance Universal.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by pheneix
[B
And for the LAST TIME, Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are coming to Universal Orlando. In the case of LOTR, I think it is pretty safe to say that they will NEVER be a part of Disney as long as Michael Eisner is in charge thanks to the bad blood there. [/B] Can you prove that?

And what about that "ignorance" comment? ;)

[raidermatt]

Hmmm, well, I'm wondering where you found those, and from what year 2002 is being compared to...

Here's what I have from Amusement Business, which is the only publication that I knew of that bothers to put out estimates

2001 to 2002

MK, 14.8 to 14.0, down 5.4%.
Epcot, 9.0 to 8.3, down 7.8%.
MGM, 8.4 to 8.0, down 4.8%.
AK, 7.8 to 7.3, down 6.4%.
WDW, 40.0 to 37.6, down 6.0%.

USF, 7.3 to 6.9, down 5.5%.
IoA, 5.5 to 6.1, up 10.9%.
Universal total, 12.8 to 13.0, up 1.6%.

Since the drop from 2000 to 2001 was only slightly in favor of WDW (-7.4% to -9.2%), a 2000 to 2002 comparison wouldn't change the difference much.

Where did you find the numbers you posted?

[pheneix]

>>>Can you prove that?<<<

Go look under AV for an essay about the troubles between Eisner and Miramax over Lord of the Rings. After reading that it is fairly obvious why LOTR isn't a Disney property.

[DVC-Landbaron]

Didn't hill or somebody else do a rather extensive piece on it? I can't remember, but being a LotR fan I recall that I was kinda glad Ei$ner didn't get his hands on it!! I KNOW he would have have ruined it!!

[crusader]

Strip everything away from WDW except for the MK. No resorts, no other venues, no other parks. Just the MK. Do the same for Universal. Strip it down to just IOA. Which park is going to get more one day visitors.

No question who wins here and I see your point. But how long does the notoriety last? How long before that ride count equalizes and the new kid doesn't see much of an attraction distinction between the two industries?

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by raidermatt


Where did you find the numbers you posted? I believe that it was Theme Park Insider... but I will have to double check on the site. I just did a Google search and pulled up some results.

Go look under AV for an essay about the troubles between Eisner and Miramax over Lord of the Rings. After reading that it is fairly obvious why LOTR isn't a Disney property. That doesn't prove that HP and LOTR are "definitely" coming to Universal.

[pheneix]

If you looked for any 2002 numbers from Theme Park Insider then it would have been one of my threads, since I supplied an unfinished list to the thread in the hopes that others would come along and round it out.

That being the case, I KNOW that the numbers that I posted there were the numbers that Raidermatt posted here, and not the numbers that you posted.

[Testtrack321]

Oh, so this is my thread. I'm that pivatal 'teen' group that Disney is aiming for now and people said Universal 'owns' already.

I can say, with extreme amount of confidence, that this statement is false. I have talked to many kids of differing backgrounds, ages, and opinions, and found that nearly ALL perfer Disney to Universal. But what gets them going to Universal is the coasters. Simple as that. They love Disney, the dark rides, the themeing, everything. But they only go to Universal for the coasters. They would stay at Disney if it had more big time thrill rides. Simple as that. And Disney knows that.

Now we go to Universal vs. Disney dark rides. Simply put, Cat in the Hat sucks. It is boring, it has nothing in it besides paint and pictures, and tons of boredom. Compare this to Pooh, opened around the same time, and as you can see, Pooh wins.

Then as Scoop keeps saying, Disney has the buffer. The monorial. The TTC. Everything. Universal has a 6 story parking deck that throws out more advertisements than a DTV Disney movie, and then dumps you into a night-club district.

Yeah, Universal creative really had caught up. :rolleyes:

[ChrisFL]

Originally posted by Testtrack321
Oh, so this is my thread. I'm that pivatal 'teen' group that Disney is aiming for now and people said Universal 'owns' already.

I can say, with extreme amount of confidence, that this statement is false. I have talked to many kids of differing backgrounds, ages, and opinions, and found that nearly ALL perfer Disney to Universal. But what gets them going to Universal is the coasters. Simple as that. They love Disney, the dark rides, the themeing, everything. But they only go to Universal for the coasters. They would stay at Disney if it had more big time thrill rides. Simple as that. And Disney knows that.

Now we go to Universal vs. Disney dark rides. Simply put, Cat in the Hat sucks. It is boring, it has nothing in it besides paint and pictures, and tons of boredom. Compare this to Pooh, opened around the same time, and as you can see, Pooh wins.

Then as Scoop keeps saying, Disney has the buffer. The monorial. The TTC. Everything. Universal has a 6 story parking deck that throws out more advertisements than a DTV Disney movie, and then dumps you into a night-club district.

Yeah, Universal creative really had caught up. :rolleyes:

I also know a lot of teens who would disagree with you. There are a lot of comparisons on quality of rides which Universal Creative made better than Disney, and many have already been listed:

MIB vs. Buzz Lightyear
Bilge-Rat Barges vs. Kali River Rapids
Spiderman vs. Anything

Even the old E.T. ride is up to par with Peter Pan IMO.

Maybe when you rode the Cat in the Hat it had technical problems(assuming you actually did ride it), because, I have so much fun spinning it's not boring at all to me, and there is a lot of different elements to the ride, besides "paint and pictures".

But the trend is not favoring Disney if they keep coming up with mediocre attractions every few years.

The initial question, I think people are missing, is that Universal is quickly catching up to provide a good experience for all types of guests, and that has nothing to do with attendance figures.
Now if a certain park left a certain demographic completely disappointed when leaving, then that's an issue, not what the attendance figures are.

I mean, let's face it, MK opened in 1971, IOA opened in 1999, and people say IOA isn't as good, but to me only because it doesn't have 28 years of marketing behind it? :rolleyes:

I'm going to use another movie analogy here. Let's say they decided to make a Titanic sequel and all the people that went to see it the first time and loved it, went back years later to see the sequel, but hated it. The ticket sales would be there, but, naturally, it would be really crazy to try to make a sequel on something like Titanic and expect people to like it.

That's what Disney is beginning to face, as the parks get lower and lower quality attractions replacing classics, not to mention all other aspects of the "experience" going down, people who don't know will still come until they realize that things aren't the way they used to be. If the trend continues, and more and more people get word of mouth and realize that there's "another game in town" then we'll keep seeing different trends in UO's favor. Maybe not right now, but in 5 to 10 years, it could be a very different story, if both resorts have 4 theme parks and several hotels.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by pheneix
If you looked for any 2002 numbers from Theme Park Insider then it would have been one of my threads, since I supplied an unfinished list to the thread in the hopes that others would come along and round it out.

That being the case, I KNOW that the numbers that I posted there were the numbers that Raidermatt posted here, and not the numbers that you posted. My bad, it wasn't from Theme Park Insider, it was from an article posted at Ultimate Thrill Ride Rollercoaster which was an article from Amusement Business. But isn't that where you got figures from to raidermatt? Hmmm, I will have to research a bit more, because if we both got the same thing from Amusement Business then perhaps the article was copies over incorrectly to the site I read. I'll check some more.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by ChrisFL
Maybe when you rode the Cat in the Hat it had technical problems(assuming you actually did ride it), because, I have so much fun spinning it's not boring at all to me, and there is a lot of different elements to the ride, besides "paint and pictures".
You mean the shoddy animatronics? Or the fact that you can see the track that all of the characters move on?

[Spaceman Spiff]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan
You mean the shoddy animatronics? Or the fact that you can see the track that all of the characters move on?


No more shoddy than Winnie the cardboard cutout. Personally I find CitH to be a real 'hunny' of a dark ride. Cat has tons more whimsical charm and character than the $1.98 Pooh-lite special.

[Bob O]

I would also agree that Cat in the Hat was done with more thought and care/creativity than Pooh. Now if we had the version from japan the results would be different.
As for teenagers, my son and his friends who have been to both wdw/usf enjoy both but MUCH perfer USF overall as a better experience. Some of it is the coasters,some of it is the movies they have seen and can relate to and alot of male teenagers arent excited at all by people in costumes that maybe the older generation/females/small kids go goofy over. The find much more humor/enjoyment in sponge bob and other cartoons on comedy central/nick than seeing a bunch of princess's running around now if they were dressed like hooters girls it would be different lol)

[crusader]

Cat has tons more whimsical charm and character than the $1.98 Pooh-lite special.

Excellent!

Regarding the coaster point. The demographics are wrong here. It is not just the male teens having a great time at IoA - it's alot of us.

But in all fairness WDW does have that seclusionary flare and will continue to sustain time. Even if UO does catch up - so what? Factor in the population growth and you have plenty of room for choice.

[DVC-Landbaron]

Strip everything away from WDW except for the MK. No resorts, no other venues, no other parks. Just the MK. Do the same for Universal. Strip it down to just IOA. Which park is going to get more one day visitors.

No question who wins here and I see your point. But how long does the notoriety last? How long before that ride count equalizes and the new kid doesn't see much of an attraction distinction between the two industries?

I’d like to take a different tack. Lets strip everything away INCLUDING the MK!! After all, that’s a Walt park. Even as neglected as it has become, with rides closed and no replacements, it still reeks of Walt. Now, just for fun, put another park into the mix. How does that park stack up to IOA? Even my beloved EPCOT is a little long in the tooth and somewhat neglected. But it still ain’t bad. A Card Walker/Ron Miller park and it still can give IOA a run for its money.

So let’s try another. Let’s say that Disney was nothing but the Studios. Now how is Disney doing compared to IOA?

OK. Now try AK. Nothing but AK vs. IOA. Pretty sad, isn’t it?

So my bottom line is that Walt had 'something' that Universal hasn't quite gotten yet. And even Walker/Miller could beat the heck out of the competition.

But to me at least, the current crew hasn't got a clue!! In fact it seems as though they've gone downhill, at a tremendous rate!!

In case you don't believe me, look at the sequence. The Studios, which may, just barely, be able to hold it’s own against IOA. Ak, a very clear LOSER. And lastly I point to their latest effort. Why DCA, of course!! What's next? Local "Disney ®" church carnivals!!

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
No more shoddy than Winnie the cardboard cutout. Personally I find CitH to be a real 'hunny' of a dark ride. Cat has tons more whimsical charm and character than the $1.98 Pooh-lite special. I just think it is amusing that Universal didn't try to hide any of the tracks that the characters move on. Come on... when the piano "slides" down the stairs? Oh look... its going to hit us! Oh wait... it stops right at the end of that slot in the floor. Oh cool Thing 1 and Thing 2 are running around! Oh wait.... you can see the arm that carries them and the track they are moving on. As "cheap" as certain aspects of Pooh might be, at least Disney tries to cover up the "tech" work behind it. And for what its worth, the special effect at the beginning of the Pooh ride, the sequence where Winnie enters into the dream, blows anything out of the water that Cat has to offer.

[Jollymon]

I go to Disney. I do not go to US or IOA.

Wait, let me add one thing.

I have a three year old and a 1 year old.

I will continue to go to Disney for about 5 years.

At that point I will probably stop going to Disney altogether as my kids will prefer the thrill rides (based on the experiences of all of my friends with older age group whose kids would not be caught dead in any Disney park).

Bottom line, Disney needs a thrill ride park or they will loose relevance in the teen market.

Andrew

PS If it was up to me, I prefer a thrill park to silly dark rides with moving puppets and dolls. But these rides amaze my children so I will continue suffering through them...

[crusader]

Even my beloved EPCOT is a little long in the tooth and somewhat neglected. But it still ain’t bad. A Card Walker/Ron Miller park and it still can give IOA a run for its money.

No way. IoA will become the park the guests stay onsite at year after year and repeat visit. EPCOT becomes that one day "maybe" on occasion trip which will be easily cicumvented by a trek to SeaWorld instead.

So let’s try another. Let’s say that Disney was nothing but the Studios. Now how is Disney doing compared to IOA?

Tough call since US shares the motion picture themeing here. Both parks contain great rides with tremendous drawing power - But IOA leads.

So my bottom line is that Walt had 'something' that Universal hasn't quite gotten yet. And even Walker/Miller could beat the heck out of the competition.

No disagreement. The question is: have they caught up? And to that undoubtedly - NO! This should not be the main focus here given the varying magnitudes.

But look carefully at who is attending UO and you may see someone who strangely resembles a WDW visitor. You cannot ignore the fact that these rivals are drawing from the same base and will continue to do so. They don't have to be the industry leader to get our money, they simply have to provide entertainment.

[DisneyKidds]

The question is: have they caught up?
Thank you for repeating the question for our good Baron. Alas, it is for naught. It was indeed the Baron who said.............
I am in car #3 because the current management allowed Universal to catch up with them in every market segment!!
.............and inspired this very thread, yet he doesn't seem to want to discuss this statement any further ;).

[DC7800]

Originally posted by Jollymon
I will continue to go to Disney for about 5 years. At that point I will probably stop going to Disney altogether as my kids will prefer the thrill rides.......Bottom line, Disney needs a thrill ride park or they will loose relevance in the teen market. If it was up to me, I prefer a thrill park to silly dark rides with moving puppets and dolls. But these rides amaze my children so I will continue suffering through them...

It isn't that WDW needs a thrill park to stay relevant in the teen market (no Disney resort has ever had a thrill park, yet Disney parks have no comparison with those that do...), it's that WDW needs something (new) of interest to the teen and young adult market. If your only two choices are "silly dark rides with moving puppets" and thrill rides (coasters, etc), then of course most teens (and many adults) will choose the latter. But Disney isn't about (or, isn't supposed to be about) either of those two extremes. Disney attractions are for the whole family; rides that amaze both you and your children. Pirates is often thrown out as an example, and it is, but it's hardly alone. What's really needed are multiple new attractions, on the level of Pirates, that appeal to most every guest from age two to 102. This requires real talent, creativeity, and imagination (together with a hefty bank account) that used to a hallmark of Disney. Thrill rides are just the (relatively) cheap and easy (maybe lazy) solution, and that particular market really isn't one Disney should be competing in anyway.

Disney must answer the competition presented by IOA/ Six Flags-type parks, but should avoid competing on the same level (in other words, Disney should not lower itself to their level). Instead, answer "cheap thrills" with Disney magic - attractions which can only be found at Disney.

Remember also that most teens are touring the parks with their families, and may be found on attractions of all sorts. There are differing levels of splitting-up (by ride, park, etc), which is itself another whole debate, but you tend to find teens on Dumbo because a younger sibling likes it, and you will find them in The Hall of Presidents because their parents may prefer it. Everyone has preferences (note the MK presence of Space, Splash, and Big Thunder Mountains) including the teen group; trying to primarily appeal to one particular market segment alienates the remainder (consider what has happened to Future World).

[DVC-Landbaron]

Sidetrack post to answer a sidetrack post...
... even though he thinks it goes to the original question!

I apologize to everyone who has to wade through this nonsense. I left out the ‘key’ word that gets you off the hook for every hyperbole and outlandish statement (to make a point) you can make. Kind of like the infamous “allegedly” gets the news people off the legal hook, there are other words that I will be sure to include for the sake of Mr. Kidds that will get me off the hook. Be sure I will include them, because I want my meaning to come through and not some legal technicality!!

So…
I am in car #3 because the current management allowed Universal to catch up with them in every market segment!!
Mr. Kidds. Why do you make us all go through this process? I ingnored it when the thread first started mainly because I thought you were merely having fun and it made for a good topic. But now, after page nine you bring it up again. And I think you’re serious about it!?!?!

I don’t think you’re dense enough to have missed my meaning, are you? Why is it that a little hyperbole or even (gasp!) a missing ‘virtually’ and you’re all over me!? Did you really miss the point of the post because I neglected to say 99%, or almost or virtually? In case you did, I’ll do it again.

The question was posed as to the reason I was in car number three. The entire answer is below (missing word to make Mr. Kidds get off my back is added in red):

I am in car #3 because the current management allowed Universal to catch up with them in virtually every market segment!! I’m in car #3 because although Disney certainly had (and I stress the word had) the resources and the talent to capture, and captivate Planogirl’s 4th grade child and snare that young mind to Disney forever, they chose instead to go after the fast buck. I am in car #3 because Disney’s current regime just doesn’t put forth the effort it takes to secure long term loyalty through exceeding expectations and simply WOWing them into submission.Just because someone doesn’t like the pixie dust doesn’t mean you have to have a hissy fit and say Disney should build more dark rides, since that's what everyone really wants, and build more monorials, since everyone wants to ride those too. And just for the record I have NEVER said that Disney needed more dark rides. The closest I ever came to a stance like that is saying that Disney is dangerously close to having too many “Adult” only and “Kid” only rides. Also, I never said they needed more monorails (although I personally don’t think it would hurt). What I want to see is innovative transportation. So innovative in fact, that if I could think of the concept, it isn’t nearly innovative enough!!! Does that make sense?

And I ask again Mr. Kidds. Does that make sense?

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Jollymon

Bottom line, Disney needs a thrill ride park or they will loose relevance in the teen market.
Disney doesn't need to draw in the teen market, they have quite a significant chunk of demographics already. Me personally, I would prefer they did build a thrill park. Why? The very thing I dislike about IOA, I feel like I'm at the mall at home with a couple of roller coasters tossed in for good measure. I don't go on vacation to be surrounded by un-supervised, rowdy teenagers. I like to relax, walk around, look at the sights and scenery. Not see a group of teens running all over the place, acting rude and obnoxious, the 13 year olds that are in "love" and making out in every line ride.... etc....

I would prefer an Epcot in disaray then an IOA running at top speed.

[DisneyKidds]

Mr. Kidds. Why do you make us all go through this process?
Hey. 1,500 hits and 100+ posts. I'd hardly call that a waste of time. We have to have some fun and something to debate, don't we? ;)
I ingnored it when the thread first started mainly because I thought you were merely having fun and it made for a good topic. But now, after page nine you bring it up again. And I think you’re serious about it!?!?!
I ddn't start the thread JUST for you. I did think it would make for interesting conversation and it has been. That's not to say I didn't want more from you. Yeah, I brought you up again. You made a statement - a pretty strong one. Now I am supposed to know what you MEANT to say. Say what you mean, or don't say it at all I always say. We should all have to stand behind what we actually say. Yes, I saw other element to your post on that other thread. But still, you said what you said. Now you say 'virtually'. Well, I'm not sure most would even agree with that. Care to elaborate on your reasoning? (btw - I'm sure you saw my winkie and know I was trying to draw you out - you are too easy. Notwithstanding, we do deserve to hear more of your reasoning behind statements many would not agree with - be it 'every' or 'virtually every' ;)).
And I ask again Mr. Kidds. Does that make sense?
Sure - you didn't mean what you said ;). Fair enough :tongue:.

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan
Disney doesn't need to draw in the teen market, they have quite a significant chunk of demographics already. Me personally, I would prefer they did build a thrill park. Why? The very thing I dislike about IOA, I feel like I'm at the mall at home with a couple of roller coasters tossed in for good measure. I don't go on vacation to be surrounded by un-supervised, rowdy teenagers. I like to relax, walk around, look at the sights and scenery. Not see a group of teens running all over the place, acting rude and obnoxious, the 13 year olds that are in "love" and making out in every line ride.... etc....

I would prefer an Epcot in disaray then an IOA running at top speed.

So do I understand correctly that you want to avoid the teenage market? Unfortunately, many of us travel with kids approaching that age or already in it. As for "un-supervised, rowdy teenagers", we were at the parks during the annual cheerleader onslaught and I never saw so many unsupervised kids. But they weren't rowdy and strangely enough, didn't bother us at all. However, they were for the most part at the Disney parks so be careful, VERY careful.... ;)

As for feeling like you're at the mall, if only we had such malls in our area. None have water rides or such theming or.... well, you get the point. :rolleyes:

By the way, my fourth grader still loves WDW and hopefully always will but he's BORED with the place. :eek: He wants new experiences and new thrills and that to me is the tragedy we're facing. I'm fairly comfortable with the same old, same old even if it is shrinking a bit but kids seems to often want something new as they grow and Disney has quit being that something new. (Even though we did enjoy the new mouse ride at AK as tacky as it is.)

[DVC-Landbaron]

And I ask again Mr. Kidds. Does that make sense?Originally posted by DisneyKidds
Sure - you didn't mean what you said ;). Fair enough :tongue:.

I don't care how many smilies and twirling heads you use. Is that really all you got out of it? It sure is the impression you give.:confused: :( Or perhaps a good quip coupled with smilies is all you want?

OK! I'll play!! Just so I have it right I'll lay out a template:

{Fill in with Mr. Kidds type quip - Or NOTHING OF SUBSTANCE}:D :) :p :cool: :bounce: :jester: :smooth: :earsboy: :crazy: :wave: :earseek: :sunny: :teeth:


Gosh!! That was fun!!!


Oops!! I forgot already!! I meant:


Gosh!! That was fun!!!:rolleyes: ;):p

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Planogirl
So do I understand correctly that you want to avoid the teenage market? Unfortunately, many of us travel with kids approaching that age or already in it. As for "un-supervised, rowdy teenagers", we were at the parks during the annual cheerleader onslaught and I never saw so many unsupervised kids. But they weren't rowdy and strangely enough, didn't bother us at all. However, they were for the most part at the Disney parks so be careful, VERY careful.... ;)
There is the key word in the above post, "annual", it only happens once a year.

As for "un-supervised, rowdy teenagers", we were at the parks during the annual cheerleader onslaught and I never saw so many unsupervised kids. I have noticed, as well as others that I've been on vacation with, that the behaviors and attitudes of certain groups differ between those at Disney and at Universal.

I'm fairly comfortable with the same old, same old even if it is shrinking a bit but kids seems to often want something new as they grow and Disney has quit being that something new. So if every vacation down to Florida and you went to Universal your fourth grader wouldn't start to get bored either? Wouldn't it then start to be the "same old, same old"?

[Testtrack321]

I've seen we got a few more regular USF posters here than usual and let me tell you something, UC is still behind WDI. I'd hardly call the crapy AA in CitH better than Pooh with their vehicles.

As is best said by Jefferson Airplane in White Rabbit:

'Some pills make you large
Some pills make you small
The ones you mom gives you
don't do anything at all.'

UC hasn't all of a sudden developed a niche market of coasters and dark ride kids. People, you are kidding youselves here. Almost all of the people who go to USF or IoA are from Orlando and many still don't know about, or distinguish between, the two parks. Yet they can tell you what Epcot, Animal Kingdom, MGM, and MK are.

Don't cry to me about how we have more advertising power. Then why dosn't Universal plug in some things with the Spiderman ride and the movie?

[DisneyKidds]

I don't care how many smilies and twirling heads you use. Is that really all you got out of it? It sure is the impression you give. Or perhaps a good quip coupled with smilies is all you want?
OK Baron. Let's reaffirm the ground rules. This is all fun discussion. Now let's take the gloves off. No more smilies. No more cute attempts to get you to say something meaningful on the subject. Here it is. I got what you were saying about why you were in car 3. The other statements in your position make sense based on what I know of yourself. I can accept what you said and I got a lot out of it, even if I don't completely agree. However, on the subject at hand................

You made a rediculous statement regarding Universal catching up in every market segment. You are good at using bolds and caps when you want to make a point. Judging by your use of bold it would appear you were really making a point. So I try and get some discussion from you. You won't bite. A few quips. You still won't bite - other than to say your bold statement wasn't what you meant. You back away from your original statement and say virtually. I still find that to be WRONG!!!! and attempt to get you to elaborate on your thoughts. I thought you could perhaps elaboate on all the market segments you are referring to - but I get nothing. You hide behind nonsense and I have to ask why?

Do you know your statement to be incorrect? Is it just a gut feel with no basis to back it up? Do you just not feel like talking? What's the deal?

Heck, I get called to the mat because I (correctly) said months ago that a visit to the Bronx Zoo cost closer to $30 than $8. You make a very bold recent statement regarding Universal and I can't ask you to at least discuss it?

If that particular statement in that particular post was just you being caught up in the moment, say so. If not, explain yourself. Please. If you just don't want to talk about, say that. Just say something other than your drivel about me not getting anything out of your posts.

ps - please read the correct tone in this post. I'm not annoyed. I'm not trying to be cute. I just want to talk.

[crusader]

People, you are kidding youselves here. Almost all of the people who go to USF or IoA are from Orlando and many still don't know about, or distinguish between, the two parks.

who's kidding whom here.

So if every vacation down to Florida and you went to Universal your fourth grader wouldn't start to get bored either? Wouldn't it then start to be the "same old, same old"?

Probably. But this holds true for everything. If your family vacationed in WDW every single year are you more or less likely to repeat this annual tradition as an adult? There are those who grew up this way and have not returned.

[mojo-jojo]

ok guys i have been a lurker at the disboards for some time. And let me first say this i am a teenager, and im proud to be one. There's been a lot of talk about how Universal is for the "teenager" market. And that is completely true. Universal stands out of all the theme parks i have been to (trust me i been to a lot). Whats strikes me the most is that they dont try to be disney, they make there own magic. They know what Disney lacks, and makes it there strong point. They know that roller coasters bring in the people. They know that they will actually have to spend money to keep there theme parks looking nice. They know who they are catering to. I know there are a lot of die hard disney fans out there, and a few Universal die hards (myself included). But everyone seems to forget that a theme park is suppose to entertain people. Universal entertains me. DisneyKidds, Disney entertains you. Now to get back on topic here. I strongly believe that Universal has taken away from SOME of Disney's market, manly because of the market of adults and teenagers that want something more to there vacation.

Ooh and by the way

"Almost all of the people who go to USF or IoA are from Orlando and many still don't know about, or distinguish between, the two parks. Yet they can tell you what Epcot, Animal Kingdom, MGM, and MK are" Testtrack321

Of course they do. Everyone knows that Epcot is the learning one, MGM is the movie one and so on. Both Universal parks are in the same manner they both offer thrills compared to what Disney does and combine a theme and put it into one park.


"Don't cry to me about how we have more advertising power. Then why dosn't Universal plug in some things with the Spiderman ride and the movie?" Testtrack321

Well Universal doesnt own the rights to the movie of Spiderman, a little known company called Sony owns it. And by the way Universal is advertising the Hulk movie, which they do own the movie rights.

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan
There is the key word in the above post, "annual", it only happens once a year.

I have noticed, as well as others that I've been on vacation with, that the behaviors and attitudes of certain groups differ between those at Disney and at Universal.

So if every vacation down to Florida and you went to Universal your fourth grader wouldn't start to get bored either? Wouldn't it then start to be the "same old, same old"?

As pertaining to the cheerleader groups, it does happen only once a year. From August to March to be precise according to a cheerleader Mom I spoke to. They appear to have many different events and levels and there's always something going on during those times.

So what you're saying is that the teenagers at Disney tend to be nice while those at Universal tend to be rowdy? That seems to be a bit biased but luckily we never dealt with problem teenagers at ANY of the parks. I certainly believe you when you say that the Universal parks can attract a wilder group because these parks definitely have more of an edge and a less sanitized approach than the Disney parks. I can well imagine that the Halloween celebration is an "interesting" event. :)

My child has been to WDW nine times now and Universal once. If he becomes bored with Universal after nine trips there I can see your point. But only time will tell particularly with Universal building new APPEALING things. As it is per the kid, Mickey and the other characters are cool but really for "little kids" but Universal has Spiderman and X-Men and the MIB just please don't make him go to Barney! ;) And yes Jimmy Neutron and Shrek just happen to be favorites. At least both companies have dinosaurs.

We can go round and round about this forever. I can only go by my experiences as you can only go by yours. That doesn't make either of us right, we're just seeing different things going on here. I'm VERY glad that your perceptions are still good for you. I hope to get back to Car Number 2 but it just doesn't look real good at this time.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Planogirl
So what you're saying is that the teenagers at Disney tend to be nice while those at Universal tend to be rowdy? That seems to be a bit biased but luckily we never dealt with problem teenagers at ANY of the parks. I certainly believe you when you say that the Universal parks can attract a wilder group because these parks definitely have more of an edge and a less sanitized approach than the Disney parks. I can well imagine that the Halloween celebration is an "interesting" event. :)
No, what I was saying was is that you tend to see less teenagers at Disney then you do at Universal. But kids are kids......

[All Aboard]

Almost all of the people who go to USF or IoA are from Orlando I'd venture to guess that it's much fewer than half, certainly not "almost all." The on-site resorts will hold around 20% of their guests. There are many hotels very close by which were built in the last few years as a result of Universal growth. Plus, there are many WDW guests who venture up to Universal. [watch what happens when it starts raining at Universal, thousands of yellow Mickey ponchos come out.]

Universal does have a higher percentage of locals than WDW, but "almost all" is a big overstatement.

[DisneyKidds]

mojo - thanks for coming out of lurk mode. I always love it when a thread coaxes someone out of the shadows. I appreciate your perspective :).
They (Universal) know who they are catering to.
Yes. This is something that Disney has forgotten to a certain extent.
I strongly believe that Universal has taken away from SOME of Disney's market, manly because of the market of adults and teenagers that want something more to there vacation.
I agree with you, especially on the teens. They have taken some of Disney's market. They will take more, for a variety of reasons. They are catching up in a few areas, but it seems most would agree they have not caught up. I don't believe they ever will completely. Now that isn't to say that there is anything wrong with Universal. They are great parks that have a lot to offer. However, knowing the specific market they are catering to so well kind of precludes them from catching Disney. That is not a bad thing and is not a knock on Universal in any way. I hope you don't think I am putting Universal down when I say they won't catch Disney, especially not in every market segment.

[YoHo]

Scoop, I only agree with the DL comparison, BECAUSE of the recent boneheaded decision by Disney managment to turn DL into a resort complex. Disneyland on its own attempts to be no more then a single park.

Yes, Walt was upset about the other companies coming in and ruining the area around Disnyeland, but he never intended to make a full blown resort there in he first place.

universal on the other hand IS trying to become the all inclusive type resort. So in some sense Universal Orlando is trying to be WDW on Disneyland's property. I think its safe to say that they suceeded in that better then Disney did itself.

[Patch'sD]

My God, 10 pages of posts to praise or bash WDW or USO. It took this thread to stop the complaints about 3 or 4 Chicken Fingers and reduced services and defend Disney's honor with regard to how it compares to Universal. It is amasing to see the same people who complain about Disney's business practices defend the resort to their Death.

Let's get one thing straight Disney is no Universal and Universal is no Disney. They are both competing for the Orlando destination travel dollar. The only winner here is you and I. Rather than getting two parks (MK and EPCOT), you now have what ( SW, MGM, USF, AK, IOA and DC). What about the water parks rather than two now there are five. Entertainment options no longer just Church Street Station.

Like thrill rides go to IOA. Like Disney Characters and tame rides go to MK. Got your Grandma traveling with you go to EPCOT. Want to see some shows got to MGM and AK. It's your choice. Don't like Roller Coasters don't go to IOA at least you have a choice. Don't like to See Steel Superstructures don't go to IOA and please don't walk to far down from Splash Mountain. I think there is one overthere too.

I happened to like Cat in the Hat and the tracks never bothered me. I hope that guy never looks up in Peter Pans Magic Flight, he will be bummed. As for Roller Coaster Super Structures. Hulk fits in very well with the Theme from Marvel Super Heros as does Fear Fall. And I have allways enjoyed watching the near misses on Duelling Dragons. And please do take a look at the themeing at the Queue there, nothing in Disney even comes close to that Queue.

To Me and Mine Universal meets our needs quite well That is why after a two year absense we will be returning to USO for three or four days, staying at on-site resort that means something, and having a blast. The PRODUCT : Entertainment for a Preteen and Teen as well as ourselves. PRICE : A great deal for three or four day getaway. PLACE : Great Travel Destination, If we want maybe will take a day trip to MK. ( Look we are not teenagers and not from Orlando Area). PROMOTION not your ordinary theme park. You enjoy yours and I will enjoy mine, We both win.

[All Aboard]

And now for something completely different...

I'm anxious to see the reaction when I check in at the Hard Rock Hotel on Friday night and present my Disney Visa card as payment. :smooth:

[raidermatt]

It is amasing to see the same people who complain about Disney's business practices defend the resort to their Death. Its been said many times, but why not again...

You're talking about two different things. The direction WDW is being taken vs. where it stands today. By throwing Universal into the mix, a third variable is added. So its very easy to think that WDW is going in the wrong direction, has diminished its experience, yet is still better than Universal.

[TDC Nala]

Here's some drivel from another lurker.

I'm a pessimist, but I think Disney has Universal breathing down its neck like that Jurassic Park t-rex who is closer than he appears in the rearview mirror. I don't like that idea. I'm a Disney fan.

If Universal ever builds a Harry Potter park, Disney can say goodbye to the 8-12 age group, and JK Rowling will end up as the richest person in the world (if she isn't already).

I've heard pretty much unanimously that the Universal hotels are far superior to anything Disney has, but right now the Front Of The Line access thing is the real draw. I know many who are spending a couple of nights over at Universal just to get that. You can also get a room in most any Universal hotel for less than you can at a Disney deluxe if you know where to look. I think Disney has far too many hotels to implement this sort of thing effectively. It would have to do it only for the deluxe hotels and that would probably cause more trouble than it's worth.

Universal APs are a LOT cheaper than Disney's. Universal has discounts. Disney does not.

Personally I prefer Disney. I can't imagine spending more than a day apiece at IOA or Universal Studios. But I'm getting to be in the minority.

And then there's the fact that Disney has a problem with deciding which rides to add. If it adds adult thrill rides, the family group will be mad. If it adds family-type rides, the adult thrill ride group will be mad. If it adds both, both groups will be mad. I think Universal is well suited having a "thrill ride" park and a "non-thrill" park because it can add to either or both and market accordingly.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Patch'sD
I happened to like Cat in the Hat and the tracks never bothered me. I hope that guy never looks up in Peter Pans Magic Flight, he will be bummed.
That would be me, and I never said anything about the tracks that carry the cars.. I said that it is pretty bad that they don't even try to cover up where and how the animatronics move. And for the record, I don't look up at Peter Pan's flight. Why? My eye is drawn to other things, unlike at Cat in the Hat where my eye is drawn to the character as it runs alongs its very visible track.

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by TDC Nala
I've heard pretty much unanimously that the Universal hotels are far superior to anything Disney has, but right now the Front Of The Line access thing is the real draw. I know many who are spending a couple of nights over at Universal just to get that. You can also get a room in most any Universal hotel for less than you can at a Disney deluxe if you know where to look. I think Disney has far too many hotels to implement this sort of thing effectively. It would have to do it only for the deluxe hotels and that would probably cause more trouble than it's worth.

Universal APs are a LOT cheaper than Disney's. Universal has discounts. Disney does not.

Personally I prefer Disney. I can't imagine spending more than a day apiece at IOA or Universal Studios. But I'm getting to be in the minority.

And then there's the fact that Disney has a problem with deciding which rides to add. If it adds adult thrill rides, the family group will be mad. If it adds family-type rides, the adult thrill ride group will be mad. If it adds both, both groups will be mad. I think Universal is well suited having a "thrill ride" park and a "non-thrill" park because it can add to either or both and market accordingly.

Besides no one expects as much from Universal. There's enough people still around insulting their parks so that Disney is expected to be a zillion times better.

Your comment about the Universal resorts really hit home. I found a good deal for the Portofino. I could have gotten a room for $169/ night and from what I understand this is far from the BEST deal. I decided not to go for it because it just couldn't be that great, it was at Universal! We toured two of the resorts and wow, did I ever make a mistake. Both Portofino and the Hard Rock are super and I can only begin to imagine what the new one must be like. Of course, they are run by Loews so I should have known better. :rolleyes:

[capemom]

Originally posted by TDC Nala

I've heard pretty much unanimously that the Universal hotels are far superior to anything Disney has, but right now the Front Of The Line access thing is the real draw.

Disney resorts get my vote ... there goes the "unanimous" sentiment.

In terms of theming, service (yes. it has delined in recent years, but is still superior to UO), options, and, yes, even price at times, Disney still beats UO ... IMHO.

I also think that while FotL is a great business strategy, FP is superior in that it is available to everyone, making it more fairly spread out amongst all visitors. Even though, as we normally stay at WDW, in my own selfish way, I secretly wish they would make FP a resort perk.:D

[Testtrack321]

Originally posted by gcurling
And now for something completely different...

I'm anxious to see the reaction when I check in at the Hard Rock Hotel on Friday night and present my Disney Visa card as payment. :smooth:

That's just evil..

wow...

I'm shivering....

[ChrisFL]

Originally posted by capemom
I also think that while FotL is a great business strategy, FP is superior in that it is available to everyone, making it more fairly spread out amongst all visitors. Even though, as we normally stay at WDW, in my own selfish way, I secretly wish they would make FP a resort perk.:D

Not sure if you know this or not, but Universal has its own version of FastPass called ExpressPass.

I realize it's still different than having everyone get the same experience, but I've seen a lot more positives from on-site guests than negatives from people who know about it but can't use it.

I might go look up some satellite photos again of the land that Universal owns, see if I can make some more observations about it.

Really, the only time I really notice that IOA isn't in a place by itself is on Dr. Dooms Fearfall and on Dueling Dragons (But I CAN point straight at my old High School!! hehe)

[KNWVIKING]

Way back at the beginning of this thread,something about the OT bothered me-sorta comparing apples & oranges- but I didn't know how to put it into words. Maybe the beginning of Baseball season helped. I want to rephrase the OT,( BTW, this analogy would work better if the Rams were still in L.A.)

Debate: Have the 49'ers allowed the Angels to catch up in all market segments ?

After years of futility, the Angels are finally champs. Attendance is up, new fans, media attention, value of franchise up, etc. Does this diminish the 49er's ? No. Are die hard 49er fans taking notice of the Angels ? Yes. Are 49er fans going to Angel games ? Yes. Are the giving up their season tickets ? NO WAY. The success of the Angels is not a threat to the 49ers.

Car 3'ers, feel free to substitute Angels with Raiders if it makes it easier to tell me why my analogy is wrong :-)

As a side note,my analogy got me thinking about the Niners and Disney. Using a wide brush and taking several liberties, consider this:

Decades ago, the Niners/Disney were down & going nowhere. Then along comes Walsh/ME who do amazing things with the Niners/Disney and in a few years they are dynasties. Then the rest of the NFL/Theme parks see what has happened,learn the Niner/Disney system,think outside the box, and low and behold the other Teams/IOA start to catch up, winning isn't as easy. Soon Assistant Coaches/Disney Exec are looking for Head Coach/CEO positions. Niners/Disney are still competitive, still a quality team/product, but they need new blood again.......

This is where their histories divide. The Niners are aggresively trying to get the dynasty back. Several years ago, the Cincy Bengels were in the Super Bowl. Now players out number fans.

[DisneyKidds]

Decades ago, the Niners/Disney were down & going nowhere. Then along comes Walsh/ME who do amazing things with the Niners/Disney and in a few years they are dynasties. Then the rest of the NFL/Theme parks see what has happened,learn the Niner/Disney system,think outside the box, and low and behold the other Teams/IOA start to catch up, winning isn't as easy. Soon Assistant Coaches/Disney Exec are looking for Head Coach/CEO positions. Niners/Disney are still competitive, still a quality team/product, but they need new blood again.......
Interesting analogy. However, I'd say that salary cap issues had more to do with the fall of the 49ers dynasty than did the competition figuring out the 49ers system.

I suppose that Disney has a sort of 'salary cap' problem, yet theirs is very much self imposed. What does the NFL salary cap do? In essence, it limits what a team can spend. Disney, too, is limited in what they can spend on the parks. However, this limitation was created by the faulty decisions on such things as ABC, Go.com, etc., etc.

As for the 49ers and Disney's divergent paths, the 49ers are successful in their post salary cap world because they are adding new, young, quality players. Disney's additions since their 'cap' was self imposed have not been of the highest quality.

As for Disney and Universal being apples to oranges, I agree that they are to a certain extent. That is why I don't believe Universal will ever completely catch Disney in every market segment. As for changing the 'topic', you would have to check with a certain someone who made the original statement that this thread is based on. I fear, however, that that someone doesn't want to talk about it.

[Patch'sD]

I don't look for the tracks either and I never noticed it in Cat in the Hat even the Thing one and Thing two, But I was there to enjoy myself, not compare it to something that exists at another park somewhere.

I don't compare Disney and Universal. I enjoy them. Right now my Market Segement family feels that Universal provides the right entertainment and provides it at the best bang for the buck. End of Story.

What I don't get is the constant whinning of cuts in service, hours, perks, food, maintenance without any action. With little exception people here are still spending their hard earned dollars for reduced Disney Enjoyment. " Even with the cuts it's still better than Universal". The way I read this " I will gladly pay more for less". Until Disney sees steady drops in revenue with reductions in profit there will be no change. If revenue drops are exceeded by cost reductions Disney is making more money and will continue to increase shareholder value. It's the wrong business model, but it seems to be working and right here is the proof.

[Testtrack321]

What I don't get is the constant whinning of cuts in service, hours, perks, food, maintenance without any action. With little exception people here are still spending their hard earned dollars for reduced Disney Enjoyment. " Even with the cuts it's still better than Universal". The way I read this " I will gladly pay more for less".

I would gladly pay 'more' for 'less'. I would gladly pay 'more' for a nice fille mignon and get 'less' than if I bought a burger and fries. I would gladly pay 'more' for a nice car that has 'less' features than a crappy car that has a ton.

The thing I'm going here is this: I would pay more for Disney than Universal. Disney hadles crowds better, they have higher quality, and a nicer park. Universal, although nice, gives you more and more that really isn't great.

Now we will get into the 'my park can kick your parks butt' thing because of me, but think of it this way. Would you pay $50 to park in a parking grage and then walk past nightclubs to your park, or would you park in a parking-lot, ride a tram to the monorial, then go to the park for the same amount of money?

So now who is spending more for less?

[ChrisFL]

Originally posted by Testtrack321
Now we will get into the 'my park can kick your parks butt' thing because of me, but think of it this way. Would you pay $50 to park in a parking grage and then walk past nightclubs to your park, or would you park in a parking-lot, ride a tram to the monorial, then go to the park for the same amount of money?

So now who is spending more for less?

That is IF there is a monorail that goes to the park you're waiting for...if not then you have to wait for a bus or take a veeery slow ferry boat to your destination. Either way adds at least 20-30 mins to a day.

Now I enjoy the idea that my car is under a very sturdy building away from the sunlight, with security and that I can park hop almost as easily as just going through a single park. Technically the walk from the front of USF to the back of it is probably a longer walk from the front of USF to IOA. Having a choice of shopping, dining, other air-conditioned places is just a bonus.

It's all in what you prefer. I prefer a 5 minute walk than a 20 minute cramped bus ride, although the monorail is nice, of course.

[raidermatt]

Niners?

Bill Walsh = Michael Eisner?

Wow.

First, can't stand the Niners.

Second, they play some 400 odd miles from the Angels (so do the Raiders....at least this year!)

Third, Bill Walsh is/was a genius with regard to the core product of his organization: Football. He could coach it, he can evaluate talent, he can motivate, the whole package. Even Eisner's biggest supporters can't call him an entertainment genius with a straight face.

Fourth, the new Niner regime has purged the last vestiges of the old regime, with the exception of Bill himself being kept around as a consultant. We'll see how they do over the next 2-3 years...

I know what you were getting at, Vike. A better hypothetical analogy might be Angels/Lakers, Raiders/A's, or Bears/Cubs. I think what you'll generally find is that if the organization is well-run and provides its fans with what it wants, then the success of one team doesn't really detrimentally impact the other. There's enough to go around when both organizations are strong.

But there is some overlap in their markets, and should one falter, and stop giving its fans the product they've come to expect, then yes, the success of the Angels could detrimentally affect the Lakers. But the root and core of the Lakers' problem would still be the Lakers mistakes, and not the strong moves of the Angels.

When you look at numbers, it will look like the Angels took away the Lakers' customers, but that may not really be the complete story. What's most likely is that the Lakers lost their customers not BECAUSE of the Angels, but simply because they faltered.

Likewise, if Disney were to only worry about Disney, and strive to maintain the same standards they always have, whether Universal succeeds or not would have little impact on them.

The concern that some of us have is not so much that Universal is doing some things right. Its that Disney is NOT doing many things right.

Universal is just a largely objective barometer to measure things against, and try to identify if anything tangible is really changing from a business perspective.

[raidermatt]

What I don't get is the constant whinning of cuts in service, hours, perks, food, maintenance without any action. With little exception people here are still spending their hard earned dollars for reduced Disney Enjoyment. I'll make it real easy.

You patronize park A because it gives you 100 units of enjoyment for $100.

You don't partronize park B because it only gives you 70 units of enjoyment, even though its only $90.

Then, park A makes some cuts, and you now get 95 units of enjoyment for your $100.

If your goal is to provide your family with the most enjoyment possible, wouldn't you still choose park A?

However, wouldn't you also be concerned that park A may not be through with its cuts, that its heading in the wrong direction? Especially if you are trying to view it from a "business" point of view?

[crusader]

Fantastic - after umteen posts we've digressed to applying football analogies to themeparks.

Let me ask this - anyone know anyone who is so loyal to a team they refuse to watch any other team? They never spectate at any competitors arena? They never watch the championship unless their team is in it? They never spend even one dollar outside their homefield. Come-on!

[KNWVIKING]

Raidermatt, as I said, my analogy would have been better had the Rams still been in L.A. , but I think you got the point.

Crusader, I'm not sure I understand your last post, but it sounds like my analogy ruffled your feathers a bit. But in fact we're saying the same thing. A loyal Niners fan can watch the Angels, a loyal Disney fan can go to IOA/US. It doesn't mean that IOA has caught Disney, it just means both present an appealling product.

[Patch'sD]

First off I don't care if your park is better than mine. We are all entitled to our own opinion. My Point is your Park. Yesterday you paid admission and hotel rental to a park that was opened till 10:00 PM, Becuase you were a Hotel Guest that park allowed you in an hour early, sent packages back to your room, and gave you free transportation. The park also had most if not all rides operating all the time, had lots of shows during the day, and gave you fireworks at night. Today that same park that kicks but. Closes at 6:00 PM, does not send packages back to your room. Opens some rides late and closes them early, has less shows and lets you gamble on when a firework show will be, but expects you pay the same ammount or more. " Pay more for less". You my friend are paying more for less service. Disney sees this as increase to their profit margin and thus increase share holder value and a very temporary rise in the stock price. Until Disney starts to see profit decrease along with revenue, they won't make a change. To force Disney to bring the parks back the Disney Loyalist must go to the Window and say " I am mad as heck and I am not going to take it anymore. Till that Day the Disney Greed Committee will continue to chip away at your vacation until they reach what I call the Pre$$er Principle. Which is point were so many cuts have taken place that people stop going.

I like Disney, but Universal gives me more bang for my buck and gives me the entertainment me and my family desire. In other words your park costs to much and does not entertain me as does the other.

Ah yes the last time I went to my park I took a nice boat ride, went right through the gate. Showed my hotel pass and did not wait on any lines to ride Kick butt rides like Spiderman, Men in Black, Hulk, Duelling Dragons, Bilge Rat Barges, Dudley Do Right, Jurasic Park, and T3 Several time. Paid less for admission and Paid about the rack rate for all-Stars at the Portofino Resort.

[Testtrack321]

I can go to my local Kings Dominion and get 'bang for my buck' with Hypersonic XLC and Volcano. I can go to a discount store and get 'bang for the buck'. But when I go to Disney, I don't get bang for the buck. Why? You can't get quality and a cheep deal. You are obsessed with the fact Universal gives it to you, but saddly it dosn't. You pay $50 for each park. I go to Universal and find that Jaws, ET, and BttF is closed because of techincal problems, I don't find a big 'bang for my buck.' Those 'high quality shows' such as Barney Live! and the Nickelodeon tour obviously give me more 'bang for my buck' compared to Beauty and the Beast and the Little Mermade shows (note sarcasm).

When it comes down to it, Disney has a overall complete feeling to it while Universal seems like a urban complex with parking structures and the likes.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Patch'sD
Closes at 6:00 PM, does not send packages back to your room. Opens some rides late and closes them early, has less shows and lets you gamble on when a firework show will be, but expects you pay the same ammount or more. Hmmm, is this the same park that is open an hour later then your park during Spring Break, and other then that week maintains the same hours as yours? Is this the same park that has a daily parade every day and fireworks everynight? Hmm, Fantasy in the Sky every night at my park, don't see any fireworks at your park. Hmm, I don't see your park offering a parade all year round or a night-time show or fireworks. Hmm, at last check I could still have packages delivered to my room. All of the shows were still operating and all attractions were still operating with the exception of those either in rehab or the CoP or the Timekeeper. I don't see any rides closing early or opening later either. At last check in one of area of the resort Future World at Epcot closes at 7, yet the most popular attractions stay open two hours later. Hmm... interesting how things work out like that. Next time you should do some better research. :rolleyes:

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Patch'sD
Paid less for admission I don't see how that is possible. $50 for a one day admission to Disney, $51.95 for a one day admission to Universal. $1.95 might not seem like a lot of money, but that is a bottled water or soda. A Disney 4 day hopper costs $192 allowing you access to all 4 parks, while Universal is $89.95 for 5 days giving you access to two parks and CityWalk. So while the Universal ticket is cheaper, the days expire, meaning that if you go to Universal on days 1 and 2, then skip three, go back for 4, and skip 5, you lose the other two days. Any unused days on a Disney hopper never expires. What I also find amusing is that I have to pay an additional $34.95 for the after 5 pm Mardi Gras stuff. Seems kind of expensive for some parades and beads, I get a parade included with my Disney admission. Even after-hours Disney events aren't this expensive, last October I went to the Halloween party there, paid $26.95 for the ticket.

[All Aboard]

What I also find amusing is that I have to pay an additional $34.95 for the after 5 pm Mardi Gras stuff. I agree that it seems high for what you get. But, I think it is the reduced admission after 5pm on Mardi Gras nights.

In other words, if you have paid admission (hopper, 1 day, AP, whatever) you don't get hustled out of the park at 5pm only to have to pay more to get back in (like MNSSHP or MVMCP.)

Rather, you just stay in the park you've already paid for. The park closes at 8 or 9 for everyone, but you can pay the reduced price if you only want to be there for Mardi Gras, the parade and the concert.

I'm not sure that's perfectly clear the way I explained it. I hope it made sense.

[raidermatt]

First off I don't care if your park is better than mine. Neither do I. You said you didn't get why others recognized cuts but still went to WDW. I gave you an explanation.

You my friend are paying more for less service.
Yes, I am. But its still the best value for MY money. Whether its more or less than it used to be is irrelevant when it comes to where I am going to vacation TODAY. That doesn't mean others haven't been pushed over the line to thinking WDW is not the best choice for them.

To force Disney to bring the parks back the Disney Loyalist must go to the Window and say " I am mad as heck and I am not going to take it anymore. I do not visit Disney out of loyalty...I visit because it remains one of the best options for my family.

That said, you are giving me and the few others posting on this thread FAR too much credit. Everybody has a breaking point. A point at which they say, "You know what? I'd rather go to Universal for a few days this year." Or Hawaii. Or Wash DC. Or Yellowstone. Whatever.

The fact that I have not reached my breaking point does not mean I am unable to recognize that others have.

There are others here who go to WDW much less frequently than they used to. I can also say that my last trip to DL was in August of 2001, and if DCA had been up to Disney standards, I can pretty much guarantee I would have been back by now, but I haven't.

Till that Day the Disney Greed Committee will continue to chip away at your vacation until they reach what I call the Pre$$er Principle. Which is point were so many cuts have taken place that people stop going. Nobody is arguing with you. In fact, many point to attendance figures as proof. But we don't choose our vacation destinations based on some philosophical belief. We pick the best places for ourselves and for our families. Again, that doesn't preclude us from discussing the direction Disney (or Universal, or whoever) is taking.

I like Disney, but Universal gives me more bang for my buck and gives me the entertainment me and my family desire. In other words your park costs to much and does not entertain me as does the other. That's great. No problem. Reverse the names and I could say the same to you. But that has nothing to do with market share and whether Disney is making good business decisions.

Ah yes the last time I went to my park I took a nice boat ride, went right through the gate. Showed my hotel pass and did not wait on any lines to ride Kick butt rides like Spiderman, Men in Black, Hulk, Duelling Dragons, Bilge Rat Barges, Dudley Do Right, Jurasic Park, and T3 Several time. Paid less for admission and Paid about the rack rate for all-Stars at the Portofino Resort. Great. Works for you.

[KNWVIKING]

Last time at US, we sat for 37 minutes on ET, listening to the same stupid sound bite over and over. When we FINALLY got off the ride we received one free head-of-the-line pass. WOW, pixie dust was just a spewing !

We went on BttF because years earlier we thought it was great- better then Star Tours by far. But US "updated" the ride. Basically they boosted the hydraulic pressure so high the car jerked so violantly the three older ladies behind us couldn't get out without assistance- we didn't wait around to see what became of them, but they were extremely upset.

We will be spending a week in May doing IOA/US, SW, WnWild, basically all things not Disney. We will be staying off-site. I'm curious to know how much I'm going to like all those on-site guests hopping off a ride then running right back on ahead of me. I wonder if it will make me appriciate FP a little more.

But I do love that great show they have every nite: The mountain, the dragon,the princess barges....oh wait, that's MGM. Nevermind.

[ChrisFL]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
Last time at US, we sat for 37 minutes on ET, listening to the same stupid sound bite over and over. When we FINALLY got off the ride we received one free head-of-the-line pass. WOW, pixie dust was just a spewing !

We went on BttF because years earlier we thought it was great- better then Star Tours by far. But US "updated" the ride. Basically they boosted the hydraulic pressure so high the car jerked so violantly the three older ladies behind us couldn't get out without assistance- we didn't wait around to see what became of them, but they were extremely upset.

We will be spending a week in May doing IOA/US, SW, WnWild, basically all things not Disney. We will be staying off-site. I'm curious to know how much I'm going to like all those on-site guests hopping off a ride then running right back on ahead of me. I wonder if it will make me appriciate FP a little more.

But I do love that great show they have every nite: The mountain, the dragon,the princess barges....oh wait, that's MGM. Nevermind.

I was wondering how long it would take for this to turn into a mud-slinging fest

:rolleyes:

[Testtrack321]

By the looks of things, you were pivatal part of it starting.

[DaveO]

People are going to see what they want to. No one on these boards is objective. I think if you were to look at both resorts objectively then the both have the same number of pluses and minuses.

They both have great rides, shows, attractions. Both have crapy ones.

But anyone who says US/IOA does not have the same cuts as WDW duriing the slow down in the economy at certain times are just plain wrong. I saw them when I visited during the slow season a while back. Same as Disney only parts of parks open, resteraunts closed, and attractions just plain closed.

I am not saying this is right for either park to do or that it makes it OK for Disney to do 'because the other guy is doing it'.

My point is that both resorts have thier followings but both resorts are make the same cuts. There are just not 100s of discussion boards on US/IOA that tear apart every press realease, cut and rumour. Also the fact that IOA is still in its infacy from a product life cycle perspective gives it an edge with some consumers as well.

One final note US/IOA is NOT expanding from my understanding they are replacing old rides - isn't that what everyone complains that Disney does - where is the outcry on IOA/US management? At least Disney has Everest/FM coming (sorry could not resist a partisan comment ... ;) )

Proud to be an American - God Bless our troops

Dave O.

[KNWVIKING]

Wow, two truthful events I experienced, one honest concern I have about FotL priviledges and one itsy, bitsy show dig, and you call that mud slinging ?? Amazing.

[eclipseSD]

Immediate FOTL priviledges are for staying onsite at Universal. I am staying onsite at both US and WDW.

I don't care if someone gets really annoyed that I waited 5 minutes when they waited 2 hours. They had the chance of staying onsite. I took advantage of it. My gain, their loss.

FOTL/Express is the one system I feel Universal has Disney beat by at least 25%

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by eclipseSD
I don't care if someone gets really annoyed that I waited 5 minutes when they waited 2 hours. They had the chance of staying onsite. I took advantage of it. My gain, their loss.
Unless they can't afford to stay at one of the Universal resorts, in that case Universal is separating their guests by class structure.

FOTL/Express is the one system I feel Universal has Disney beat by at least 25% Unfortunately Disney could never offer the same type of FOTL access to their resorts guests that Universal offers to theirs.

[ChrisFL]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
Wow, two truthful events I experienced, one honest concern I have about FotL priviledges and one itsy, bitsy show dig, and you call that mud slinging ?? Amazing.

Or maybe you should go back and re-read your post.

I can't tell you how many ride stoppages I've encountered at Disney over the years. I waited over an hour with a small cousin on a boat backup in Its a Small World, been stopped in the middle of Spaceship Earth going backwords several times, even my parents were LEFT and FORGOT ABOUT on Space Mountain once. My father had to get out and walk back to the front (it was at the beginning of the ride) after 2 hours to find out why they weren't let off the ride!

And I feel more sick coming out of Body Wars than from BTTF, and I've ridden BTTF over 40 times.

No park is perfect, but everyone has their stories on one side or another. These are just some examples of what's happened to my family over the years. Why do we go back? Free tickets.

[DisneyKidds]

Well, we got pretty far before we got into ‘Nanny, nanny, poo, poo – my park is better than yours :tongue:’. I should have anticipated that would happen. A few comments……………..

Patches is right, Disney does give you less today, for more money, than they gave you yesterday. However, Matt is correct when he points out that that fact alone is irrelevant to the OT. Some people find more entertainment and quality at Disney, some find more at Universal. Different strokes for different folks. Everyone is free to go to the park that they enjoy most. Can we relate this back to the OT? Sure. That OT had to do with Universal having caught up with Disney in virtually every market segment. So, are more people going to Universal than Disney? If not overall, how about in particular market segments? The relevant question isn’t who’s open later, or who has what parade, or who has what parking facilities. The relevant question is in which combination of those things do more people find more ‘bang for the buck’.

Another relevant question would be whether more people, either overall or by market segment, have to go to Universal for one to consider Universal as having ‘caught up’. Let’s say for arguments sake that Universal has better rides, better hotels, better FP/FotL access systems, better restaurants, better…………, better……….., better………… yet fewer people and fewer families ever go there. Can one be considered to have caught up or surpassed Disney if there offerings are of equal or better quality and entertainment value for all groups, yet the people never come? Perhaps a Baron clarification on ‘caught up’ is needed, yet he seems to be avoiding this thread.

[ChrisFL]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
Perhaps a Baron clarification on ‘caught up’ is needed, yet he seems to be avoiding this thread.

At this point I can't blame him...

But anyway, as I see the description of the topic is if every demographic comes out of a theme park feeling satisfied and wanting to come back, then you can say that they are good for every market segment.

I can't yet say that entirely for UO, but I can say that it's much better along than, something like AK or even EPCOT (at the moment). Animal Kingdom does need more rides to become a fully-fledged theme park IMO. Busch Gardens, while only lightly-themed, still has much more thrilling attractions, and still has decent zoo tours, interactive areas, etc.

EPCOT is, as we all know, getting outdated in some areas and being replaced with less-than-par attractions in other areas. Besides a couple attractions, I'm not too enthused about going there anymore (and it used to be, by far, my favorite park). Though, I really enjoy Test Track.

[DisneyKidds]

At this point I can't blame him...
If you mean for purposes of avoiding the 'my park is better than yours' game, sure. However....................

Someone made a statement about Universal catching up to Disney. I started a thread that simply asked.......... 'is this so, and if you think so please provide your reasoning?'......... Is that such a terrible question that it should be avoided - especially if you are the one who made the statement?

Not that I am asking this in a fruitless attempt to draw our good friend Baron into the meaningful part (for me at least) of this 170+ post, 2300+ hit 'waste of time' (I've given up on that), but I'm just not sure what you mean when you say you 'can't blame him'.

[ChrisFL]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
If you mean for purposes of avoiding the 'my park is better than yours' game, sure. However....................

Someone made a statement about Universal catching up to Disney. I started a thread that simply asked.......... 'is this so, and if you think so please provide your reasoning?'......... Is that such a terrible question that it should be avoided - especially if you are the one who made the statement?

Not that I am asking this in a fruitless attempt to draw our good friend Baron into the meaningful part (for me at least) of this 170+ post, 2300+ hit 'waste of time' (I've given up on that), but I'm just not sure what you mean when you say you 'can't blame him'.

Well, it took 11 pages, but eventually this thread turned into a "well this is my bad experience at _____" vs. "Well, this ride sent 15 people to the hospital when I went" back and forth, etc. etc.

[DisneyKidds]

Well, it took 11 pages, but eventually this thread turned into a "well this is my bad experience at _____" vs. "Well, this ride sent 15 people to the hospital when I went" back and forth, etc. etc.
I know what you are saying my friend ;). I'm surprised we got 11 pages before that happened :bounce:. I did try and direct this thread back on topic by asking a few more relevant questions. With any luck it will work.

[Patch'sD]

Thanx for the feed back. Again I don't try to compare the parks in terms of which is better. At this time, My demographics, Two Teenagers, One Preteen, Two Kid at heart adults. Universal is a better option for me. My point is that Disney is making so many cutbacks that they are giving you less but asking you to pay more. My travel dollar goes further at Universal and gives me the enjoyment that I am looking for. If my childern were younger I might spend more time at Disney, but at this point maybe a day trip to the MK will be all for us. I was just trying to make the point that Disney is Tweaking and Tweaking at cost effciency until a saturation point is achieved. At this point customer loyality will go out the window and people will then not be willing to spend additional dollars to go to Disney.

I am not a constant visitor, I have been there four times in the past 13 years. My first visit On-site Guests recieved Perferred Reservations, Early Entry for about half the number of hotel rooms they have now, plus what they still offer today. Fast forward to today, EE parks are avoided and most of the attractions are not operating anyway. Reservations are made with everyone else. Comparing my stay from three years ago Park hours in MK and AK are cut by 2 hours per day. If I were to go today, I will be paying more for less.

Even at Universal I will be getting less for more, However with FOTL and a 3 day pass, I think i can make up for it. I spent a total of six days at Universal and IOA. During that time I encountered Spiderman being down for about 1/2 hour and Dudley Do Right operating on one track for half a day.

Thanx

[hopemax]

Another relevant question would be whether more people, either overall or by market segment, have to go to Universal for one to consider Universal as having ‘caught up’.

IMO, I disagree with the idea that Universal must attrack more visitors than the Magic Kingdom in order to be "caught up." Imagine 2 kids. Kid #1 is the prodigal child, always turns in perfect homework and scores the highest on the first test. Kid #2 never turned in homework, and failed the first test. Parent's get involved and gets kid #2 to realize the importance of this class. So Kid #2 starts doing his homework and studying. Kid #1 is smart enough to realize that by being so perfect on the first 1/3 of the class that all he has to do is average a C for the rest of the class and he will still pass the class, so homework doesn't always have to be turned in, and getting a B on a test is fine. By progress report #2 both kids are getting the same grade on tests, and when both kids turn in homework they are getting the same grades there too. So has kid #2 caught up to kid #1? I would say yes, at this point they are performing identically, but if you combine all their homework and test grades, Kid #1 will still have a higher grade on the basis of the first 1/3 of the class. It's possible that in the 3rd part of the class, Kid #2 could outperform Kid #1 but when that final grade comes in, Kid #1 could still have a higher grade, because of the disparity between them in the first 1/3.

I'm not sure we have the resources to know exactly what's going on. Attendance is one indicator, but it's tricky right now. The economic and political situation right now has to be considered, for both properties and I'm not sure if percentage drops and gains are the best indicators. Let's say 100,000 people have to cancel their trip to FL. They were going to go to both Universal and WDW. Well, subtract .1 million and run the percentages and Universal will have a greater drop, percentage wise, but would it be unfair to say that both properties were affected equally, the same people didn't go to either?

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Patch'sD
Thanx for the feed back. Again I don't try to compare the parks in terms of which is better. You say that you don't try to compare about which is "better". Yet you go on talking about the cutbacks at Disney, and even in an earlier post you talked about things that Disney was "supposedly" taking away. So you are trying to compare, a comparison on items that I refuted which you don't seem to have a defense for. Disney isn't asking you to pay more, they haven't raised prices, they are just making cutbacks based on the economy. Just like Universal is making cutbacks based on the economy, and they aren't charging more either. I went to the Orlando area in January, all of Disney's rides were operational at the time I went, the one day I went to IOA Dueling Dragons, Carou-Suesse-l, and Storm Force Acceleration were all down for rehab. Also my favorite restaurant at IOA, Thunder Falls Terrace, was closed as well. Should they have discounted my day pass? No, because the tings are expectations that I have either going in an off season or when the economy is in a slump. I think its great that you can spend 6 days at Universal, I on the other hand would be bored to tears after just spending more then 2 days at each park. But what works for you works for you and that is great.

Even at Universal I will be getting less for more, However with FOTL and a 3 day pass I still and always will disagree on seperating your guests by class structure based on FOTL.

The best comparison I have on this issue is the Girl Scouts. The Girl Scouts? Yes, the Girl Scouts. Girl Scout cookie time is around, I remember a few years back when you would order the Caramel Delights and you would get like 25 cookies for $2.00. I just bought a box of the same cookies and now I only get 15 cookies for $3.50, people will complain about this but they will keep buying them. Why? Because they are good and people like them. Why do I keep paying the money to go to Disney and Universal? Because I think it is good and still like it.

[All Aboard]

I went to the Orlando area in January, all of Disney's rides were operational Just curious, did you enjoy The Voyage of the Little Mermaid, Timekeeper, Carousel of Progress, Mike Fink Keel Boats, Hunchback of Notre Dame, Backstage Pass, or how about those seacabs in The Living Seas.

Did you get a chance to enjoy breakfast at Tony's? Perhaps you ate with Pooh and friends at Artist Point? Wasn't the Italian food great at Pasta Piazza?


"All", you say? Hmmm.

[All Aboard]

Scoop, just trying to pierce that middle ground. Seems too many extremes get posted here. I read the message that Universal had attractions and restaurants all over the place that were not operating and that at Disney, it's was "all" a go!

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by thedscoop
Greg, I didn't take that post to mean that all the closed or seasonal attractions were open but rather that none of the operational attractions were in rehab. Maybe he could clear that one up... Took the words right out of my mouth. Rides that were in rehab were in rehab, rides and shows that had been closed were just that, closed. But everything that should have been up and running..... was.

And I ammend my statement, Storm Force and the Carousell weren't down for rehab, they were just plain closed. As well as Thunder Falls Terrace, and the pizza place in Jurassic Park. I also forgot to mention that the only thing open for food in the Toon Lagoon area was "Wimpy's Burgers" or whatever it is called. The day we went to IOA it started to become a joke when it was lunch time of which places were open. First we walked to Thunder Falls Terrace, closed. Then we walked to Pizza Predatoria, closed. Now we back track to Toon Lagoon, and stop at Blondie's first, closed. Then we went off to Comic Strip Cafe, closed. Now it has just become comical, we notice people getting burgers at Wimpy's and settle for that.

The Voyage of the Little Mermaid Nope, under rehab.

Hunchback of Notre Dame Being replaced.

Timekeeper, Carousel of Progress Seasonal attractions.

those seacabs in The Living Seas Rehab

Perhaps you ate with Pooh and friends at Artist Point? At least I was allowed other options so I could dine with the characters.

[pheneix]

>>>Storm Force and the Carousell weren't down for rehab, they were just plain closed<<<

The Carousell was definitely not closed as a cost cutting measure, as it has never been and never will be considered as a cost cut during the slow season. The only reason it could have been closed would be due to some kind of critical mechanical failure.

The only other attraction that is closed during the slow season is the Triceritops Encounter, and its debatable over whether or not it really matters since its daily capacity is tragically low anytime of the year (it doesn't make it right though). It makes the Carousel of Progress look like the Tower of Terror by comparison.

The restuarants were definitely closed as a cost cutting measure though, and I don't agree with how far they took it (the sole exception being Thunder Falls Terrace, which was gutted for Halloween Horror Nights and isn't on the slate to be reopened anytime soon). OTH, did you happen to stop by the Confisco Grille? How about the Enchanted Oak Tavern? There were many more restuarants open on the north side of the park (Lost Continent, Seuss Landing, Port of Entry) than in the south.

BTW, all of the shuttered attractions and staggered hours for IOA were abolished when attendance started tracking higher than expected at the end of February.

Now, looking at Disney:

>>>Hunchback of Notre Dame

Being replaced.<<<

Yeah, and the Pope's jewish...

>>>Timekeeper, Carousel of Progress

Seasonal attractions.<<<

DAMN! Didn't you just rag on Universal for doing the very same thing?!?

>>>those seacabs in The Living Seas

Rehab<<<

Hey, I didn't know the pope was jewish! ;)

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by pheneix
The Carousell was definitely not closed as a cost cutting measure, as it has never been and never will be considered as a cost cut during the slow season. The only reason it could have been closed would be due to some kind of critical mechanical failure. I don't remember saying specifically why they were closed did I? Nope, just said they were closed.

BTW, all of the shuttered attractions and staggered hours for IOA were abolished when attendance started tracking higher than expected at the end of February. So is that why the week of Spring Break that the Magic Kingdom is open an hour later then IOA? :rolleyes:

Yeah, and the Pope's jewish Rumor is they are making way for a new stage show based on another animated film, but you can believe what you want.

DAMN! Didn't you just rag on Universal for doing the very same thing?!? No, I didn't. And there is no need to swear so your voice can be heard.

Hey, I didn't know the pope was jewish! Again, believe what you want.

I'm just waiting for Project Gemini to be announced to the public.

[eclipseSD]

I don't consider FOTL a class system, I consider it a perk.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by eclipseSD
I don't consider FOTL a class system, I consider it a perk. A perk? Of course. A separation based on money? That also. If you have enough money to stay at a Universal resort, then you can afford the "perk", if you can't afford it, forget you then.

[wdwfreak]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan
A perk? Of course. A separation based on money? That also. If you have enough money to stay at a Universal resort, then you can afford the "perk", if you can't afford it, forget you then.

So by that logic, wouldn't EMH fall under the category of "separation based on money"?

[KNWVIKING]

"The Carousell was definitely not closed as a cost cutting measure, as it has never been and never will be considered as a cost cut during the slow season. The only reason it could have been closed would be due to some kind of critical mechanical failure."

We did three trips to WDW in 2002, May,Nov,Dec, all at basically off season times. Carousell was closed all thre weeks. We asked several CM's what the deal was. All stated nothing was wrong with the ride,they just don't open it on slow days. When they consider the park to be full enough,they will open CoP as a way to thin the other lines. While I know CM's don't always give good info, the fact that every CM had the same answer leads me to believe they're correct. I also never saw any noticable work being performed on the ride.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by wdwfreak
So by that logic, wouldn't EMH fall under the category of "separation based on money"? Nope. The early magic hour is a perk given to Disney on-site guests, this happens before normal operation hours, so nothing is being taken away from regular day guests at the park that has been choosen to host the EMH. Now if Disney stated that their parks open at 9 every day but day guests couldn't enter until 11 so the on-site guests can enjoy everything all morning, then yes, it would be separation based on money. But because there is no effect on every guests that enters through the turnstiles, my answer is no on this question.

[wdwfreak]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan
Nope. The early magic hour is a perk given to Disney on-site guests, this happens before normal operation hours, so nothing is being taken away from regular day guests at the park that has been choosen to host the EMH. Now if Disney stated that their parks open at 9 every day but day guests couldn't enter until 11 so the on-site guests can enjoy everything all morning, then yes, it would be separation based on money. But because there is no effect on every guests that enters through the turnstiles, my answer is no on this question.

But instead of entering an empty park at 9am, they are entering a park that has already developed a wait a some rides, so technically, they are losing something. Not much, but something ...

[Patch'sD]

Girl Scout Cookies Vs Theme park. Doing good for Children Vs Doing good for Michael Eisner. Thats a great Comparision.

Here's Mine. You go to your favorite Restuarant where they prepare a meal that you can only find there. After time the price stays the same, but I takes longer for you to get a table, Service is much slower and the portion is smaller. Since this is your favorite meal you deal with it. More time passes, Service is even slower and Since this is Tuesday, you can't get the side dish you want with your yet smaller entree. When is the breaking point. If the Restuarant is still making a healthy profit do they care. If they start losing customer base and money, will they make a change yes. Also Who knows about what in terms of what happened the loyal customer or the walk in off the street. Is Disney foresaking it's loyal customer for the new customer.

I am not trying to compare Disney Vs anyone else. I view it as Disney is screwing there loyal customer to make a fast buck. I perfer Universal Becuase I like the attractions, Have had very few problems there, and love FOTL. You pay additional for it and it is well worth it. If Disney could figure out a way to do it , they would.

[morphi]

Not to mention that to help pay for EMH, Disney is hesitant to keep MK open an extra hour in the evening during which the non-resort guests COULD have enjoyed extra time in the parks. So I think EMH does impact non-resort guests. I don't think that's bad though.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Patch'sD
Girl Scout Cookies Vs Theme park. Doing good for Children Vs Doing good for Michael Eisner. Thats a great Comparision.
Thank you.

I am not trying to compare Disney Vs anyone else. But you are and have, see two comments down.

I view it as Disney is screwing there loyal customer to make a fast buck. Great, I feel the same about Universal.

I perfer Universal Becuase I like the attractions, Have had very few problems there, And this is why I like and continue to go to Disney. But we wouldn't want to "compare" parks would we? :rolleyes:

You pay additional for it and it is well worth it. If Disney could figure out a way to do it , they would. Again, based on the number of rooms they couldn't.

Not to mention that to help pay for EMH, Disney is hesitant to keep MK open an extra hour in the evening during which the non-resort guests COULD have enjoyed extra time in the parks. So I think EMH does impact non-resort guests. Really? I haven't heard of Disney closing any earlier. Why can't Universal offer the same then to their day guests as well?

But instead of entering an empty park at 9am, they are entering a park that has already developed a wait a some rides, so technically, they are losing something. But at least everyone has equal chance to do all the rides that want. They don't have the same resort guests riding the same rides over and over and over, thus making their stand-by time even longer.

[curtisl]

Well, I've been in Orlando for the last 2 days and went to IOA for the 1st time yesterday. I wasn't expecting much, figuring I would see something like a 6 Flags, or Paramont which I hate with their zillions of coasters. I had visited Universal Hollywood 8 years ago and was very disappointed in them. I was pleasantly surprised. I loved the place! The theming was great, the rides were long and involved, the bathrooms clean, the stores all had different stuff. There were only 3 roller coasters, so I don't consider it a roller coaster park at all. I loved the place!!! The only problems I saw were a few staff people that weren't very cheery but most were very friendly. Spiderman's queue and ride was a blast! Loved the theming of Jurassic Park and Seuss Landing!!!

Went to Epcot today. World Showcase still great, but Future World needs work. The bathrooms were filthy!!! What's up with that? Didn't go to any of the stores in Future World because they still have the same Disney princess crap. Mission Space still not n open yet. Figment ride is way too short. Disney definitely needs to get off their rear. Universal has a new convert.

-curtis

[Patch'sD]

Where do I compare. Did I say the Disney is plagued with problenms, no? How is Universal screwing their customer. What are their cutbacks, please document. Are they Temporary or permanent. Ever take a gander at the 2002 Disney Annual Report. Take a look at the Financial Highlights for Theme Parks. See what it has to say about the cuts. " Costs and expenses, which consist principally of labor, costs of merchandise, food and beverages sold, depreciation, repairs and maintenance, entertainment and marketing and sales expense, decreased 2% or 122 million, driven primarlily by volume decreases, reduced marketing and permanent cost reduction initiatives across all segment business and the absence of pre-opening costs for Disney's California Adventure. These cost decrease were partially offset be higher employee benefit and insurance costs. "

But alas you are Disneyphite. The Disney company can do no wrong and wages their wrath on anyone who knocks the almighty Disney.

[ChrisFL]

Originally posted by Patch'sD
But alas you are Disneyphite. The Disney company can do no wrong and wages their wrath on anyone who knocks the almighty Disney.

That leads me to another point I'd like to make. It may be inaccurate to post the question that is the topic of this thread to a lot of die-hard Disney fans.

Now I have no problem hearing the (relatively unbiased views of) Fans of Disney, but I do seem to be noticing certain trends.

If you look at most of the threads on this board, you'll see mostly complaints about the cut-backs, cost-cutting, less chicken fingers, the less-than-par effort of recent attractions, theme parks, movies, etc.

If you look at the visitors on the USO message boards, you'll see about 90% positive views. Even the thread "What is Universal's Biggest Flaw?" drew mostly mild responses.

But when a Disney vs. Universal thread comes along, it seems like suddenly a lot of the standard people who post negatives about Disney all the time, suddenly come to the side of Disney, that "It's still way beyond anything else". I'm not sure I buy that argument.

I would say that most of the visitors to the USO boards are just guests and not regular members, as opposed to this message board.

I believe if we gave a poll from the standard tourist population, we'd see a more "independent" view.

[stevets]

I don't care if Universal builds a heaven on earth, I'll never give another penny to those America-hating, snail-eating, no-armpit-shaving @%*! french $%&@!.

[All Aboard]

ChrisFL,

I'd liken the Universal Board here on the Dis to either the Theme Parks board or the Community Board (where there is a lot of pixie dust and happiness with everything). Certainly not to the Rumors Board.

If anyone goes onto the Universal board with something negative to say, there's a good chance they'll meet a great deal of opposition (re-read the "biggest problem with UO" thread). Much like the pro-only WDWMAGIC boards do to folks even dreaming of making a negative comment about Disney.

Nothing wrong with that, they are fans - and quite big ones.

Here, we have a mix. But, there are quite a few vocal folks that are very displeased with things right now.

But, honestly, Universal has given its fans less to gripe about lately, it seems.

[Patch'sD]

Here, Here Well said. As for my French Loving Friend, I to will boycot the French, but not at the expense of American Citzens. At the this time I am delaying my trip to Euro Disney until the French come around.

[mojo-jojo]

"I don't care if Universal builds a heaven on earth, I'll never give another penny to those America-hating, snail-eating, no-armpit-shaving @%*! french $%&@!."

stevets that was quite possibly the worst post i have ever heard on the disboards. Your ignorance surprises me. But other than that i must defend Universal not the French. First off Universal is only half owned by the French company. Second off i think i should boycott all things that Disney because they have mor influence than Universal. They have a French section at Epcot, a New Orleans section with French influences, and even a theme park in France.

Oh and i better not tell you that Walt Disney was a member of the American Nazi party. Please before you post a pointless reply stevets please understand the facts

[stevets]

Originally posted by mojo-jojo
Second off i think i should boycott all things that Disney because they have mor influence than Universal. They have a French section at Epcot, a New Orleans section with French influences, and even a theme park in France.
That's your right. I, on the other hand, have nothing against French "culture" or French people or French traditions. I just refuse to give my money to a French company (or individual) because indirectly I'll be supporting the French government, which is virulently anti-American (and which I believe is responsible for whipping up much of the anti-American sentiment in the world today).

[ChairborneRangr]

Warning, Slightly Off-Topic Post

WOW! What a marathon thread! Go on vacation for a while and it is amazing what you come back to ;)

What I don't get is the $$$ figures everyone is throwing around. I would never pay $50 for ANY theme park, even one of Disney's. I am taking my family in June 03. I already have everything lined up. Total cost of Park passes and Hotel for SEVEN nights in an onsite value resort, 4 day park hopper, +Disney Quest, + Blizzard Beach, +Typhoon Lagoon is $373 per person. Throw in airfare from Colorado and my total is $555 per person.

Question: Can Universal Studios even come close to that?

Some day I will visit USO and IOA as an add-on to a Disney trip. But knowing about "front of the line" I'll only go if I can stay onsite AFTER I've stayed onsite at Disney for a week. Disney has history for sure. The first time I went to Disneyland I was a toddler in a stroller. My kids (17, 15, 10, 6) have been to Disneyland 1-3 times depending on their age. And my 15 year old cheerleader went to nationals in 2002 at WDW. Now they all get to go to WDW and everyone is looking forward to it.

I'm going to quote my wife here... "anyone not able to have fun at Disneyworld needs professional help"

Having not been there, I've always viewed USO as slightly better than Six-Flags. I'll have to check it out for myself.

[KNWVIKING]

"I don't care if Universal builds a heaven on earth, I'll never give another penny to those America-hating, snail-eating, no-armpit-shaving @%*! french $%&@!."

.... Don't hold back, tell us what ya really think about them French'ies.

[ChrisFL]

Originally posted by ChairborneRangr
Having not been there, I've always viewed USO as slightly better than Six-Flags. I'll have to check it out for myself.

I never understood where this comes from. Just because the rollercoasters don't have a roof over them, suddenly people think USO is like an amusement park, when that couldn't be farther from the truth.

[ChairborneRangr]

I'm just telling you my perception from the past. I am always willing to update my opinion. And I do plan on going there at some point.

The main point to my previous post is this... Why would anyone pay retail price for passes at the gate. That is just throwing money away. Can USO provide 7 days of entertainment and accomodations for $373 per person? That works out to $54 per person per day including accomodations.

[ChrisFL]

Originally posted by ChairborneRangr
I'm just telling you my perception from the past. I am always willing to update my opinion. And I do plan on going there at some point.

The main point to my previous post is this... Why would anyone pay retail price for passes at the gate. That is just throwing money away. Can USO provide 7 days of entertainment and accomodations for $373 per person?

I'll be the first to tell you that UO isn't a 7-day experience yet, but there are (at least, last time I checked) 4-park adventure passes, which include USF, IOA, Sea World and Wet'n'Wild. And I also believe there are Busch Gardens versions included as well, someone with more up to date info could probably be more accurate.

Wet'n'Wild is just outside of Universal, and isn't themed, Universal just bought them out after IOA opened, but it is the best non-Disney water park in Orlando.

You can also check out the DIS sister site, USOInfo.com and post on the message board there if you have any questions about it.

[KNWVIKING]

You are describing the Orlando Flex Pass. Good for 14 days from first use. I think it's $178.00 per ticket. The 5 park pass,(Busch Tampa) is about $40.00 more. It really is a great deal.

[pheneix]

>>>I don't care if Universal builds a heaven on earth, I'll never give another penny to those America-hating, snail-eating, no-armpit-shaving @%*! french $%&@!.<<<

What the #@% ever. Just remember that when you are not supporting Universal Studios it is 13,000 central Floridians you're not supporting.

[Testtrack321]

Oh what savages we have become.... :(

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Patch'sD
But alas you are Disneyphite. The Disney company can do no wrong and wages their wrath on anyone who knocks the almighty Disney. Strike a nerve? I haven't "waged my wrath" on anyone.

Where do I compare. You say that you don't want to "compare", then you go on about all the things that Universal does for their resorts guests and the things that Disney has taken away from theirs, etc... If that is comparing then I don't know what is. Just for the record here is one of the posts that you made that comes across as comparing: Closes at 6:00 PM, does not send packages back to your room. Opens some rides late and closes them early, has less shows and lets you gamble on when a firework show will be, but expects you pay the same ammount or more Come on now... :rolleyes: Did you forget that you said this or are you just ignoring it? And I answered all of your questions from this above post yet you didn't respond to a single one.

What are their cutbacks, please document. Perhaps you should re-read the post where I talked about the many restaurants and rides that were closed when I went in January. Actually, I'll save you the time and post it just for you:
"the one day I went to IOA Dueling Dragons, Carou-Suesse-l, and Storm Force Acceleration were all down for rehab. Also my favorite restaurant at IOA, Thunder Falls Terrace, was closed as well." and "Storm Force and the Carousell weren't down for rehab, they were just plain closed. As well as Thunder Falls Terrace, and the pizza place in Jurassic Park. I also forgot to mention that the only thing open for food in the Toon Lagoon area was "Wimpy's Burgers" or whatever it is called. The day we went to IOA it started to become a joke when it was lunch time of which places were open. First we walked to Thunder Falls Terrace, closed. Then we walked to Pizza Predatoria, closed. Now we back track to Toon Lagoon, and stop at Blondie's first, closed. Then we went off to Comic Strip Cafe, closed. Now it has just become comical, we notice people getting burgers at Wimpy's and settle for that." These sounds like cutbacks to me, but being a "Universaphite" :rolleyes: maybe you have a different explanation?

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
You are describing the Orlando Flex Pass. Good for 14 days from first use. I think it's $178.00 per ticket. The 5 park pass,(Busch Tampa) is about $40.00 more. It really is a great deal. It's a good deal if you plan on using more then 4 days, then it isn't worth it. Now if they days didn't expire I would say it was an amazing deal.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Not to be nit-picky, but has anyone seen the hours for the Magic Kingdom the third and fourth week of April? They open at 8:30, earlier then originally posted and close at midnight, one hour later then originally scheduled also! Two parades at night and a fireworks show every night.... wow.... I don't mean to "compare" or anything.... but what time does that other park close and what times do their parades and fireworks start? ;)

[pheneix]

I don't know, but you just reminded me of something.

What days of the week will Blizzard Beach be closed?

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by pheneix
I don't know, but you just reminded me of something.

What days of the week will Blizzard Beach be closed? Did you mean in April? Well it is closed until April 8th for its annual refurbishment, but then it is open every day after that from 9-6. Care to try again? ;)

[pheneix]

Take a look at those May hours, because Blizzard Beach is closed every Friday and Saturday in the month except for the final week. Typhoon Lagoon is closed every Sunday-Tuesday except for the final week of the month as well.

They're just GIVING the business to Wet n' Wild* at this point.

* Oh, what a coincidence! Its a Universal park.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by pheneix
They're just GIVING the business to Wet n' Wild* at this point.

* Oh, what a coincidence! Its a Universal park. I don't see how, both water parks aren't closed at the same time. So there still is a Disney water park option, which to me is still a better deal if I was staying on-site then trekking all the way out to I-Drive. Hmmm... they are keeping the same hours also. I'm also confident in the fact that Disney will update hours and closures once they view their resort capacity for May, much like they did in April.

Speaking of park hours... let me see... Memorial Day Weekend and the following week the Magic Kingdom is open an hour later then IOA and two hours then UO. And MGM is open an hour later and on that Sunday it is up to two hours later.

Universal is just GIVING the business to Disney. :rolleyes:

[Planogirl]

Are you guys still playing "my park's better than your park"? ;) Oh well, I'm personally happy to enjoy both resorts, I just wish that Disney would get out of second gear! :mad:

I will say that when we went we were apparently very lucky because no rides at Universal were down except those being refurbished while none were closed at WDW either except for refurbishment or until the crowds were big enough. I could compare the two resorts fairly IMO. I liked what I saw at BOTH places and we had a blast. It was my son that wanted to return to Universal and I know that my husband will like Universal more. :( Disney has been puttering along for a while now and I can still love WDW just based on memories and the resorts but the other two members of my family don't go for that. And everyone here can say but this is my experience and these are my findings but I can only spend my dollar based on our experiences and our findings.

Universal is unique and is NO Six Flags. Universal is THEME parks not amusement parks based on my understanding of the terminology. The Universal resort includes three outstanding themed hotels and a wonderful entertainment complex. IOA has gorgeous theming and is well on the way to being an outstanding theme park. A person really does ride the movies at Universal Park while MGM has lost this focus IMO.

However Disney is Disney with a genius and many years of great output behind it. It also has outstanding themed hotels and portions of its theme parks go beyond anything else. It seems to be rudderless right now and there is no one sensible at the helm but I bet that it will eventually find it's way back.

JHMO. I like 'em both which makes it more fun (if more expensive) for me.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Planogirl
Are you guys still playing "my park's better than your park"? ;)
I'm not. Just trying to show the nay-sayers that Disney hasn't cut back as much as they would like to think or claim. ;)

Other then that, good post.

[pheneix]

>>>So there still is a Disney water park option<<<

Not when it is closed at 11am due to over capacity issues. This isn't January when it is too cold to enjoy a water park. This is May, and people are going to show up.

>>>Speaking of park hours... let me see... Memorial Day Weekend and the following week the Magic Kingdom is open an hour later then IOA and two hours then UO. And MGM is open an hour later and on that Sunday it is up to two hours later.<<<

I don't know where you are getting that from. On the weekend itself all of the parks are open until 9pm, and then on into the week USF and the Magic Kingdom ease back into the 7pm closings. IOA is scheduled to stay open till 8 for the entire week, and by then the only park staying open until 9pm is MGM.

Of course, one thing to point out is that the hours are all scheduled to change. One of the main drivers in increasing MK's hours is the fact that attendance there is tracking so much higher than the other parks it is not even funny (lately it has been like 40k at the Magic Kingdom vs. 17k at the other parks). That being said, it is widely expected at WDW that attendance and resort bookings are going to have the floor fall out from under them after Spring Break ends in mid-April. That's why Port Orleans just got nailed again with a "revovation."

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by pheneix
Not when it is closed at 11am due to over capacity issues. This isn't January when it is too cold to enjoy a water park. This is May, and people are going to show up.
So then how does Wet N' Wild avoid the same problem? :confused:

I don't know where you are getting that from. On the weekend itself all of the parks are open until 9pm, and then on into the week USF and the Magic Kingdom ease back into the 7pm closings. From the official site and from CRO, from the 24th to the 31st the park will be open until 9, though this conflicts with the hours just posted on the website. The conflict comes from a recent reschedule, but as of this morning when I called to check on hours I was told 9.

[pheneix]

>>>So then how does Wet N' Wild avoid the same problem?<<<

Well, they stay open... ;)

>>>From the official site and from CRO, from the 24th to the 31st the park will be open until 9<<<

Fair enough, I'll take your word for it.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by pheneix

Well, they stay open... ;)
Well that didn't really answer my question about the capacity issue... but fair enough. Truce?

[netnurse31]

Well, I have just spent close to 45 minutes reading all the posts on this thread and I just had to make a few comments.

Last year my family visited Disney and spent a total of $5,000 for an 8 day trip staying at a moderate resort with 5 day PHP tix. Considering it was my DD's first trip to WDW I considered the money well spent. I should also add we spent a day at IOA and USF and felt we really needed a few days to see all of the parks.

This year we have decided to spend the 8 days at the Hard Rock Hotel. We were able to book the hotel at $135 a night pool view using the Entertainment Card. I purchased 4 annual passes for a total of $446. This will allow us to go back again on our annual February trip to Florida and not have to dish out the money for the park passes again. So now we are working on under $1400 for the cost of our trip and I doubt seriously if we will be spending $3600 on food for the week.

My point is that with the FOTL access, the low price of annual passes and the 20% discounts at stores and restaurants and free parking that come along with those passes, Universal has made it affordable for families to vacation and still get the theme park experience. Perhaps we wont be spending every hour of the day going to a park but that leaves us time to enjoy the resort itself which Disney guests so often tend to ignore.

I love Disney and I'm sure I will be back in the future but, for the money, Universal has the market hands down.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by netnurse31
This year we have decided to spend the 8 days at the Hard Rock Hotel. We were able to book the hotel at $135 a night pool view using the Entertainment Card. I purchased 4 annual passes for a total of $446.
Which annual pass did you buy? And if you bought the 2 park-preferred annual... how did you get it cheaper?

[Planogirl]

Hi netnurse31. This is similar to the experience we had just last month. And it's disturbing to say the least.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Here is the thing that I never understood when people talk about the cost of park admittance between the two parks. It was mentioned a few posts up about the money that will be saved by going to Universal for the majority of the trip versus Disney because the passes are cheaper, etc. But I guess my misunderstanding comes from this: For an annual pass to both Universal Parks it is $150, and an Annual Pass for Disney is $369 for the four parks, a little more the double the Universal price. This is where I get confused about people commenting about price, you are get double the parks then Universal, so hence my understanding for the price being more. Both offer the same discounts on food, merchandise, hotel rooms and free parking, etc... So why is it that people get worked up when Disney charges double for double the parks? I understand that money being tight becomes a main issue, but in my humble opinion, you want double you pay more. Concerning the poster that commented on spending $5,000 at Disney for an 8 day stay, I'm not trying to start a personal attack just trying to get some understanding, was that just for your tickets and accomodation? You seem aware that you can use the Entertainment Card for discounts on Universal hotels, so did you look for the cheapest Disney rates that you could find? What you are paying for a hotel stay at Universal for your next trip sounds comparable for what Disney charges for a moderate resort also. So all things considered the only difference in price I can see if your Universal passes versus your Disney passes.

Not trying to incite a riot, or "rage my wrath" on anyone.... just rambling my thoughts I suppose to gain some clarification.

I believe the reason that I have trouble understanding the comments and problems is that while I'm down in Orlando when I'm on vacation is for and food or merchandise that I want. I already have the vacation house down there so I don't spend money on a hotel, I have my Annual Pass, so I don't spend money for Disney passes. Just food, merchandise, and my one day IOA pass.

[DisneyKidds]

Here is the thing that I never understood when people talk about the cost of park admittance between the two parks.
You make a good point HMF. I'm all for knocking Disney when I feel there is something to be knocked. However, often times people look for reasons to knock Disney that might not really be there, or be what they think they are. Case in point the '$5,000 Disney vacation' analysis. Not picking on anyone here, and I'm sure the person did spend $5,000 on the vacation, but I highly doubt that the $5,000 is an apples to apples comparison to the '$1,400 plus food' Universal vacation. There is no way it can be.

First off, without discounts of any type, the max cost for 8 nights in a moderate and four 5 day PHP's is $2,500. Anything that was tacked on over this $2,500 will also have to be added to the $1,400 cost for a Universal vacation. Off the bat that $1,400 Universal vacation just went to $3,900 if you eat similarly and spend similar amounts on other things. So, one might try and compare the $2,500 to the $1,400 figure put out for Universal. However, you still can't do that as the $1,400 is both discounted and gives you much less in the way of admissions. With easily available discount the $2,500 for Disney could be brought down to $2,200. So, at Disney you pay $2,200 (or possibly less if you are more agressive about discounts) as compared to $1,400 at Universal. Seems like a pretty big difference, but hardly $5,000 versus...............................:rolleyes:.

Then, as HMF points out, you aren't getting the same value in admission with the Universal package. The hotel is very nice and $135 is a good discounted rate, I'll give Universal that much. However, let's look at the '4 annual passes for $446'. Those must be the $99.95 Two Park Annual Power Pass. As HMF pointed out, you get admission to two theme parks, and two theme parks only. Those passes include NO free parking and NO discounts. That outrageously expensive Disney ticket gave you admission to 4 theme parks, two water parks, Disney Quest, Pleasure Island, and WWoS.

Again, I'm not trying to pick on anyone. I'm not trying to imply that Universal is not a good value becase it does have a lot to offer. What I am saying is that when people imply they can get the same thing at Universal for '$1,400 plus food' that cost them $5,000 at Disney it really serves no purpose other than to misrepresent the facts and inappropriately cause false alarm.

[netnurse31]

In response to the previous 2 posts........

The annual passes that I purchased were one preferred annual pass <that does include a 20% discount on food and merchandise in the parks as well as free parking and discounted room rates> for $146 and 3 annual power passes for $99 a piece. I payed $150 a night last year for CBR as there were no codes available the time of year I visited. To me, the quality and size of the rooms as well as the resort itself at HRH is comparable to a Disney Deluxe resort. I believe last year our 5 day park hopper plus passes were around $250 each. So comparitively speaking just for the hotel and park tickets Disney was $2050 and Universal will be $1388. That's a $622 savings without taking into consideration the park ticket increases in one year, the discounts on food and merchandise, free parking, FOTL <which saves time and therefore computes to some monatary value in my opinion>, preferred seating at all of Universal's onsite restaurants except Emeril's and the quality of the resort rooms.

No, the $5,000 wasnt purely for park passes and hotel. I managed to spend a whole lot of money on merchandise and food as well for which I received no discount with my $250 park hopper plus passes. Of course that does also include air and a car for which I have booked at a substantial savings due to the drop in travel recently. Taking everything into consideration my trip to Universal should work out to be around $2000 cheaper than Disney's last year. That $2,000 will enable us to visit Universal again during the year to utilize our AP's.

To address the quantity of parks point, I could take or leave AK and Epcot. My children don't enjoy them and I believe we must have spent a half day at the most at these parks. Was that worth the difference in price for the park tickets? In my opinion no. Will my Disney PH's be used up in 5 days? Yes, and I'll be able to visit Universal numerous times during the year. Sure I spend more time in the parks at Disney but half that time is spent waiting on long lines.

Don't get me wrong here.......I love Disney and, as I said yesterday, I intend to go back. My point is that Disney could take some advice from Universal as far as the value for the money and the treatment of their annual pass holders. As far as I know the only benefit of holding a Disney Annual Pass is getting room discounts and free parking. There are no food or merchandise discounts involved.

Disney will never go broke, of that I am sure. People go back for the magic which my family and I enjoy as well. My only issue is that they could try and make it a bit more affordable so that everyone could go and enjoy themselves more often. I'm sure with better AP benefits at a nicer price and lower prices at the deluxe resorts Disney would win over Universal hands down. I suppose that's up to the powers that be.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by netnurse31
In response to the previous 2 posts........

The annual passes that I purchased were one preferred annual pass <that does include a 20% discount on food and merchandise in the parks as well as free parking and discounted room rates> for $146 and 3 annual power passes for $99 a piece. I hope that you aren't vacationing when they are black out dates. I would hate to "have" to plan a vacation around certain dates.

I payed $150 a night last year for CBR as there were no codes available the time of year I visited. To me, the quality and size of the rooms as well as the resort itself at HRH is comparable to a Disney Deluxe resort. Have you stayed at HRH before? What time of year did you visit? I just find it hard to believe that there were no discount codes at all.

That's a $622 savings without taking into consideration the park ticket increases in one year But also taking into consideration all of the little "extras" like a water park, free admission to Pleasure Island, and others. It is my understanding that you only recieve a discount on Wet N' Wild and CityWalk should you choose the enjoy these two areas, so that narrows the gap by at least an additional $240. Plus with the discounts on merchandise, I think anyone would be likely to spend more because you know that you are getting a deal. Kind of like when something is one sale, you may not need it, but the price is right.

As far as I know the only benefit of holding a Disney Annual Pass is getting room discounts and free parking. There are no food or merchandise discounts involved. Nope. I am an Annual Pass holder and I recieve discounts on food and merchandise, as well as other things like mini-golf, the water parks, etc.. Plus the room discounts can be pretty deep, one year in May I recieved a 45% discount on my room at the Beach Club.

That $2,000 will enable us to visit Universal again during the year to utilize our AP's. This is where we differ, I can't see spending more then one day at IOA and won't ever return to USF.

Sure I spend more time in the parks at Disney but half that time is spent waiting on long lines. You will avoid the lines at Universal on your second trip only if you decide to stay there. A policy I still don't agree with, you shouldn't separate your guests by class structure. I've said it before and I'll say it again.

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan
You will avoid the lines at Universal on your second trip only if you decide to stay there. A policy I still don't agree with, you shouldn't separate your guests by class structure. I've said it before and I'll say it again.

This is not entirely true. We did not stay at the Universal resorts (much to my regret now) but at the Holiday Inn and we used the Universal Express feature very successfully. The 5 day pass for $89.95 is a super deal except that one has to use it within 5 consecutive days. We used only 3 days but it was a bargain nonetheless. As for not having access to water parks and Pleasure Island, it makes no difference to me because we don't go to those places anyway. I want theme parks and resorts and I get my money's worth at both Universal and WDW IMO.

By the way, I also had to pay full price for a moderate during one busy time and even once for the Allstars (which I DON"T like but that's another subject). Discounts are not always available unfortunately.

Anyway, too much of this is subjective. You say you'll never return to Universal Studios but we can't wait to go back.

[DisneyKidds]

Netnurse - thanks for clarifying. I'm glad your travel this year will be so much cheaper than last year. It looks like you are getting a great rate at Hard Rock, and the Universal tickets are cheaper. All and all, Universal being about $700 cheaper makes a lot more sense, given the rate on the hotel and the passes you purchased. Not exactly apples to apples, but a good deal that provides your family the entertainment and value you are looking for.

FYI - Disney's AP does provide dining discounts (10% at many locations) and a discount at some DTD stores.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Planogirl
This is not entirely true. We did not stay at the Universal resorts (much to my regret now) but at the Holiday Inn and we used the Universal Express feature very successfully. I meant FOTL not the Universal Express feature.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by Planogirl
You say you'll never return to Universal Studios but we can't wait to go back. Good, less of a wait for you at Universal and a less wait for me at Disney, :p

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by HauntedMansionFan
Good, less of a wait for you at Universal and a less wait for me at Disney, :p

Sorry, we're going to both resorts but if you're lucky our visits to WDW won't coincide. ;)

[crusader]

We did not stay at the Universal resorts (much to my regret now) but at the Holiday Inn and we used the Universal Express feature very successfully.

Not to deviate too much off course but Planogirl could you elaborate on this? Why regret staying offsite?

Regarding the Universal Express feature I don't believe it is currently being offerred.

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by crusader
Not to deviate too much off course but Planogirl could you elaborate on this? Why regret staying offsite?
The Holiday Inn was an OK hotel and we were even upgraded to a suite and only paid about $60/night plus the transportation was adequate. But the only reason I stayed there was because I didn't know much about the Universal resorts. In retrospect that was dumb because Loews builds such awesome resorts but anyway I was completely smitten with Portofino Bay and I could have easily gotten a good deal there. My son liked the Hard Rock and I have to admit the resort's pool could make me a swimmer again. ;)

Regarding the Universal Express feature I don't believe it is currently being offerred.
When did they discontinue the Express? It's still being mentioned as a feature on the Universal website and we used it March 16-18.

[All Aboard]

I hope that you aren't vacationing when they are black out dates. I would hate to "have" to plan a vacation around certain dates.Never a problem for me with my DISNEY seasonal pass.

Nope. I am an Annual Pass holder and I recieve discounts on food and merchandise.Not in any of the theme parks or resorts, you don't.

Regarding the Universal Express feature I don't believe it is currently being offerred.Just got home from a weekend of using it.

[DisneyKidds]

Not in any of the theme parks or resorts, you don't.
Mr. Curling - seeing as you are into catching 'inaccuracies' ;) today I have to point out these WDW AP dining discounts.................

10% off of food and non-alcoholic beverages during lunch hours, Monday through Friday, for Passholder and up to three guests at selected Walt Disney World resort hotel table service locations: Sand Trap Bar and Grill, Concourse Steakhouse, ESPN Club, Trail's End Buffeteria, Grand Floridian Cafe, Olivia's Cafe, Kona Cafe, Whispering Canyon Cafe, Yacht Club Galley. Call (407) WDW-DINE (939-3463) for priority seating. Lunch hours vary by location; ask at time of booking.
10% off of food and non-alcoholic beverages during lunch hours, Monday through Friday, for Passholder and up to three guests at selected Epcot table service locations: Alfredo's, Biergarten, Garden Grill, Le Cellier, Chefs de France, Teppanyaki, Nine Dragons, Akershus, Marrakesh, Rose and Crown, San Angel, Coral Reef. Call (407) WDW-DINE (939-3463) for priority seating. Lunch hours vary by location; ask at time of booking.

There are limitations, but you do get some discounts in the parks and resorts.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by gcurling
Not in any of the theme parks or resorts, you don't.
You sure about that? I am holding my Annual Passholder benefits book for this year in my hot little hands. Oh wow.... I get discounts at theme parks and resorts.... should I name a few? The Concourse Steakhouse at the Contemporary, Kona Cafe at the Polynesian, ESPN Club at the Boardwalk, Nine Dragons restaurant at Epcot... should I continue?

[crusader]

When did they discontinue the Express? It's still being mentioned as a feature on the Universal website and we used it March 16-18.

I believe it is now only being offered for onsite guests. Sorry for the confusion.

[DisneyKidds]

You sure about that? I am holding my Annual Passholder benefits book for this year in my hot little hands. Oh wow.... I get discounts at theme parks and resorts.... should I name a few? The Concourse Steakhouse at the Contemporary, Kona Cafe at the Polynesian, ESPN Club at the Boardwalk, Nine Dragons restaurant at Epcot... should I continue?
Now, now, my good HMF. Unless the Universal AP has the same dining restrictions (ie - discounts only good for lunch hours) I wouldn't go building up the Disney AP discounts. Frankly, other than hotel discounts (if available, which they are currently not for most of April and beyond) I find the AP discounts to be a bit anemic. I'm a Disney AP holder, not a Universal AP holder, and I can recognize that the Disney AP benefits are not that great.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by gcurling
Not in any of the theme parks or resorts, you don't.
On the subject of discount and what-not. I also noticed that I recieve a discount of mini-golf, marina boat rentals, regular golfing, parasailing, water-skiing, and wakeboarding. What? Universal has none of that you say?

I'm not sure if the Universal Annual offers a discount on rental cars, but the Disney Annual offers a discount with both Alamo and National. But let's not get back to "compare and contrast" shall we?

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
Now, now, my good HMF. Unless the Universal AP has the same dining restrictions (ie - discounts only good for lunch hours) I wouldn't go building up the Disney AP discounts. Some are better then none as implied.

Frankly, other than hotel discounts (if available, which they are currently not for most of April and beyond) Really? I made some AP reservations for this May and got a good discount, last May also.

[All Aboard]

Hey, I didn't know about those discounts. Still rather slim, don't you think? Nonetheless, I do have Disney Dining Experience which gives me 20% off all table service and buffet restaurants in the parks plus almost all dining in the resorts. For $55 a year, THAT's a great deal!

Crusader, Universal Express is just like FastPass (except with UE, you can normally select from two time windows v. just one with FastPass.) All theme park guests can get them from the kiosks, just like FastPass. Roughly the same limitations apply - can't get another until the beginning of your ride time, or two hours. That's available to everyone, has been for about 3 years.

But, on-site guests get an even better deal. They are not limited to the scheduling of Universal Express. Rather, they can simply flash their resort id and they are directed right into the Express queue immediately, at all attractions.

[DisneyKidds]

Really? I made some AP reservations for this May and got a good discount, last May also.
Now Mr. (or is it Mrs.?) HMF. I like that you are an ardent Disney fan. However, you should try not to hurt your credibility with statements such as this. I'm sure you got a good discount last May. However, if you have an AP discount for this May you are the ONLY PERSON ON THE PLANET to have such a thing. AP discounts are currently not available. I know, I've been checking. There are dozens of people on the resort board checking multiple times per day.
Some are better then none as implied.
Speaking in the extremes really get us nowhere. Mr. Curling implied none, you implied unrestricted. The truth lies somewhere in the middle. That doesn't change the fact that it appears that the Universal AP offers better dining discounts. Not that I care or want to compare, but let's try and be objective.

[DisneyKidds]

I do have Disney Dining Experience which gives me 20% off all table service and buffet restaurants in the parks plus almost all dining in the resorts. For $55 a year, THAT's a great deal!
Sure, rub it in you !@#$%^&* Florida resident :mad: ;).

[All Aboard]

Really? I made some AP reservations for this May and got a good discount Are you sure? I didn't think AP rates had been released for dates after 4/9/03. I know that some "anybody" discounts are out there AXA, AXB, AEA - and the rates are decent, but not great. For some reason Disney is focused on Florida Residents and not ALL passholders with the discounts right now. We can get $74 moderates, that's the lowest I have seen in more than 5 years. They "everyone" rate is $94.

[All Aboard]

Mr. Curling implied noneNope, I didn't imply anything, I was very implict. And, just plain wrong. I didn't know about those. :)

[crusader]

Thanks gcurling for that info. Yesterday when I was speaking to resort rsvp I was led to believe this was only a resort guest feature. This makes a big difference - appreciate it.

[DisneyKidds]

We can get $74 moderates, that's the lowest I have seen in more than 5 years. They "everyone" rate is $94.
Sure, rub it in you !@#$%^&* Florida resident :mad: ;).

BTW - implied/implicit - did I miss something, or was I not explicit enough ;) :crazy:.

[All Aboard]

You know what I impended to say! :)

btw, Disney Dining Experience allows me to include up to 6 guests, and it is valid at Crystal Palace.

Gonna take back those FL Resident comments???

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
Now Mr. (or is it Mrs.?) HMF. I like that you are an ardent Disney fan. However, you should try not to hurt your credibility with statements such as this. I'm sure you got a good discount last May. However, if you have an AP discount for this May you are the ONLY PERSON ON THE PLANET to have such a thing. AP discounts are currently not available. I know, I've been checking. There are dozens of people on the resort board checking multiple times per day.
First questions first, it is Mr. Second question... my apologies, the one tack mind was flowing with the AP ordeal and I just kept typing. I used the "come back" discount from the last time that I stayed on-site, they also accepted my Disney Club discount which added a little to the discount.

[DisneyKidds]

impended
hehehehehe :tongue:.
Gonna take back those FL Resident comments???
Sure! I was actually wondering, but didn't want to presume :). Now if those FL resident AP's would only let you make reservations at the GF for May 31 for up to 6 guests................. ;). Oh well, hopefully regular AP discounts will be out soon.

[HauntedMansionFan]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
Now if those FL resident AP's would only let you make reservations at the GF for May 31 for up to 6 guests................. ;). Oh well, hopefully regular AP discounts will be out soon. Speaking of Florida residency, what does Disney require as proof of residency?

[All Aboard]

Speaking of Florida residency, what does Disney require as proof of residency?
Proof of Florida residency is required -- you must provide any one of the following: Florida driver's license, Florida state-issued ID card (must have Florida address), current utility statement with your name and Florida address along with a corresponding picture ID, Florida voter's registration card with corresponding picture ID, a college ID for a Florida college, or a Florida-based military ID.

[HauntedMansionFan]

So what if I had my Massachusetts issued drivers license and a utility bill from the house that I have on Orlando? That would work?

[DisneyKidds]

current utility statement with your name and Florida address along with a corresponding picture ID
So if I have the utility bill for the family (jointly owned) house in St. Pete put in my name............................hmmmmm, what kind of picture ID would they require? I suppose a NY State Drivers Liscence would not be prudent ID.

[All Aboard]

DK & HMF, if you own homes in Florida (even if they are vacation homes) you should be able to get the FL resident privileges. I believe they use the utility bill so as to exclude folks who own FL real estate only as investment (since their tenants are likely to be the name on the utility bill.) So, a drivers license from your primary residence (those gawdawfully freezing places the two of you live) paired with the utility bill (in your name) from your secondary (and better) Florida residence should suffice.

But, I'd give a call to check if I were you.

Now, don't kick yourselves too hard for paying too much all these years. :) :)

[pheneix]

I don't know if anyone posted this, but here is the link to the UO AP webpage. This should clear up any questions about discounts and whatnot:

http://themeparks.universalstudios.com/orlando/website/phi_tickets.html