Why we have so few Allies in this war?

[CarolA]

I found this article very thought provoking.

The Arrogant Empire
America’s unprecedented power scares the world, and the Bush administration has only made it worse. How we got here—and what we can do about it now



http://www.msnbc.com/news/885222.asp?cp1=1#BODY

Those of you who are convinced that only America is right should probably not bother. Those of you who wonder why we have so few major allies in the current conflict might find it interesting.

And before you start screaming that we have 35 allies in this campaign, I know that. I also realize that a lot of our traditional allies are not with us. There has to be a reason.

I will now climb in my foxhole and let the shelling begin.

[Miss Jasmine]

Lets see at last count we had what 35, 36 countries on board. It's actually one of the biggest coalitions ever.

[caitycaity]

miss jasmine:

as with most things imho quality matters more than quantity. most of the countries that support us are not committing anything but moral support. while important, i'd hardly say that it's a huge "coalition."

carol a :)

[evilqueenfan]

The news just said that it is now over 40 countries. But it doesn't matter to me if it was one country, now is the time to show support and unity.

[Miss Jasmine]

I know, caitycaity, but I dont' agree with the article. :D

[Diane]

I read the article last night and found it quite interesting.

[stevets]

If deposing Saddam is right, it doesn't matter if every nation on earth is against us.

[CarolA]

The point of the article is not actually the current war, but our overall place in the world. It helps to read it from that point of view since there are other crisis out there besides Iraq.

[jamsmom]

Originally posted by evilqueenfan
The news just said that it is now over 40 countries. But it doesn't matter to me if it was one country, now is the time to show support and unity.

Well said.

[ennazus]

Can anyone please post a list of our current allies on this war? Or a link to the list? I'd appreciate it!

[JohnTBap]

The world has had its way with us and is now kicking us out of its bed. :mad:

I REALLY wonder what would happen if we practiced isolationism for even a short period of time. Let's see who the world comes running to for help then.

We are TOO DAMN NICE. Destroying countries and then rebuilding - is there ANY OTHER NATION in the WORLD who sends SO MUCH $$$$$$$$$$$ to other countries???

Why don't we keep some of that jingle in our own purse for a while and see just what kind of difference that makes in the world - and here at home.

In the words of Yosemite Sam - "MY BISCUITS ARE BURNIN'!"

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[AllyandJack]

I just love how Kofi Anan said that we would bear the brunt of the responsibility to rebuild Iraq....like it's ever been any other way!

I look at it like this....nobody is perfect. Bush isn't perfect. Clinton wasn't perfect. Gore wouldn't be perfect. But, if you truly feel that the leader of the country you live in is an evil tyrant out to murder innocent people for his own selfish gains, then you should leave the country. Why would you stay if you felt like that? Luckily, unlike in countries that truly are ruled by such dictators, you can leave. There are many other wonderful places in the world to live. I'm sure you'll find much happiness in one of those countries where you feel the leader is doing the job to your satisfaction. I left the state I grew up in because of its leadership. I'm much happier in my new state because I have confidence and faith in its leaders. I'm not directing this toward any particular person, so I don't want someone to take this as a personal attack and me telling them to "get out." I'm just saying that someone who really feels that way about the President of the US should leave and find a place where they can be happy and satisfied with their leaders. Life is too short to live in a place where you're unhappy!

If only we could all just live in Disney World..... :D

[caitycaity]

The world has had its way with us and is now kicking us out of its bed.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

allyandjack, even if some people wanted to leave -- which i don't think most people who dislike bush do, since he will not be here forever -- moving to another country, getting a job and citizenship is not easy. in fact, in some countries, it's impossible. why leave when we will have a different president in a few years?

i personally believe (and i know a lot of other who do too) that if you think something is wrong in your country, you should fight/work hard to change it, not just leave. that's called quitting, and i don't believe in quitting. :)

[Mermaid02]

Thanks for telling me not to bother to read the article.

[Jenzebelle]

AllyandJack,

To be frank, most of these people really truly love their country, even if they are opposed to the current person in charge. Because they love their country, they want to do what they can to change it. You don't revolutionize things or ways of thinking by sitting there meekly. Like my Gramps has always said to me - the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Why leave your friends, job, family, and the only life you have ever known in order to leave in a completely different country because you don't agree with an administration that will change in at the most 8yrs?

Why not instead write letters to the editor, picket, hold signs, get the word out about your issues in hopes your voice is heard and maybe some people will change their minds?

Because if we do what you are suggesting and just sit there meekly and let have the government officials walk over us without so much as a peep, a lot of things we take for granted wouldn't be there. For example, women would probably still not be able to vote. Birth control wouldn't be available, etc...

[AllyandJack]

Well...I guess we'll just agree to disagree. My point is that we have it pretty damn good over here with GW as a president. We had it good with Clinton and we would have had it good with Gore. The American people and the Congressmen and the Senators would not let an evil dictator rule the country and go to other countries and kill people for no good reason. I just don't understand why people can't have a little faith and trust in the people who are doing their best to run the country.

Nobody wants war, but I trust that the people running things are doing the right thing for our country. If the day ever came when someone like Saddam Hussein was in office, I would leave. Maybe I'm a quitter, but at least I'm not blocking the streets so hard working people can't get home to their families. I don't have a problem with people protesting the war, I have problems with people insulting America and our leaders during a time when we should all be banding together to support each other and our troops.

[WebmasterPenny]

You know, I really don't come out of my hole very often - especially when it comes down to politics, or something controversial, but I have to say this now...

JTB - it's choosing words like that, that gives the US a bad rap around the world.

It's what inspires the opposite effect from which you desire. Instead of people/nations/countries being grateful for intervention, they see arrogance which can then go on to breed resentment - just as it would do for any individual who has something thrown in their face time and again.

When you do things...fight wars, remove dictators, rebuild societies, etc etc. you do it because <b>it's the right thing to do</b> NOT so that you can then go on to say how great you are and how everyone should be forever grateful to you. Sometimes that is a thankless task - accept it.

Naturally...I just made a somewhat sweeping statement, and of course not every one does that, or feels that way, so hopefully no-one will take offense at my comments :) On the other hand, if I <i>have</i> offended anyone you can always remind me that I could be speaking German right now if it hadn't been for you :p

[Dan Murphy]

Originally posted by ennazus
Can anyone please post a list of our current allies on this war? Or a link to the list? I'd appreciate it!

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030320-045709-7082r

[suzannen]

CarolA, interesting article, thank you for sharing. My company funds grantees all over the world as well as send US citizens all over the world. We get emails every day telling us of how other countries perceive us as an arrogant Goliath. It doesn't really matter whether this war, or even this particular administration is right vs wrong. The resulting world perception of our country will most likely lead to additional terrorist acts against Americans both here and abroad.

[glo]

There are many places in the world that you can't make an effective change in your country. Try it in Iraq, Cuba,some African Nations and see how long you protest. Change will cost you or your loved ones their life.

If where you live is so bad, then leaving is the only option for many of these people. My family and I did it. Left a country where there was no future. Risked our lives, and came here.

Wouldn't have it anyother way.

[Disney Doll]

Many of our allies aren't leaping up to be our allies because they haven't needed us yet. The Eiffel Tower didn't get an airplane flown into it, so France doesn't need us yet. None of the German govt. buildings have gotten airplanes flown into them, so Germany doesn't need us yet. I know...I know...there's "no evidence" that Osama and Saddam are ina any way acting together. Please!:rolleyes:

My guess is that when a major terrorist event happens in the countries that are currently not supporting us, suddenly the USA will be everybody's new best friend!!!!!!

[JohnTBap]

Originally posted by Disneymad



On the other hand, if I <i>have</i> offended anyone you can always remind me that I could be speaking German right now if it hadn't been for you :p

Thanks for saving me the typing.

Look, we're supposed to be allied with a lot of these people. You know, friend. I scratch your back, you scratch mine? WELL, my back's got a big ole itch right now and lots of people aren't holding up their end of the bargain.

Do you think we LIKE sending resources - ie $$$$$ - all over the world while there are many things in OUR OWN BACKYARD that could use the attention??? Frankly, it pisses A LOT of us off! We have our OWN people who go without medical attention. We have our OWN people who are starving. I'd just as soon take all of our own damn marbles and GO HOME since it seems that the neighborhood has had its fill of the rich kid anyway.

A little GRATITUDE now and again wouldn't hurt anybody, you know?

BTW, you're still not mad about that tea party thing, are you? :p

[WebmasterPenny]

Originally posted by JohnTBap
Thanks for saving me the typing.


No problem - it's the least I could do for still being able to speak English :)

[AllyandJack]

I can understand how people in some countries view us as evil tyrants...not in France because they know better...but in countries like Iraq. All they get to see on TV is what their government tells them about us. They're telling them that we're targeting civilians and we're after their oil. What they don't undersand is, if that was the case, we'd be carpet-bombing the entire place, they'd all be dead and we'd have the oil. If we really wanted to "take over" the entire Middle East, we'd have it by now. Truthfully, the only exposure I've ever had to Iraq is watching them dance in the streets after 9/11. My first instinct: they're all animals! But, better sense took over because my country doesn't reinforce that belief of the Iraqi civilians. It's sad that they feel that way about us because I think we're a generous, peace-loving nation.

The funny thing is, if we DIDN'T go over and help them escape Saddam, people would still be protesting that we were selfish and didn't care about anyone else. Now that we're doing something to help them, we're criticized for the method, even though we tried other alternatives - apparently we were supposed to "try" forever. We'll never win, people will never be happy and trying to change someone's mind is useless. We should just agree to disagree about it and move on. Having said that....laying down in the middle of the street while people are trying to get home is just plain rude. They had that "vomit in" in San Francisco where they all threw up! HELLO! Not exactly the way to be taken seriously by your government or your fellow citizens. I have a lot more respect for Fred Durst and his grammatically incorrect speech at the Grammys! He made his opinion known, which is the American way, and then he moved on.

The only thing that sort of bothers me...and this might just be a standard procedure, I don't know....but, why are we flying the American flag over there? If we're trying to prove that we don't want to take over, should we do that? Maybe someone knows more about this. That would look a little alarming to me as an Iraqi citizen.

[JimB.]

So, the world does not like us.

Gee there's a surprise.

Here's my take form another angle.

The perception of many AMERICANS is that regardless of what we do, when we do it, where we do it, we are hammered in the international forum of public opinion.

When the Taliban were in power in Afghanistan, who provided the most food aid??

Who has provided the most aid to North Korea over the last 8 years when they were continually violating international agreements??

Who kept the Soviet Union from starving to death in the 70's & 80's through grain sales??

What country do the NY Mets play baseball in??



The answer is the same to all of these questions.


Ya' know, IMHO, one of the biggest issues that other countries have with us is that we actually DO things, or TRY to make something happen.

Foreigner's scream at us, beat us to a pulp in the press.

Then they go out & buy Levis, eat at McDonalds, listen to American music & watch American movies.


The french protest McDonalds & try to stop the construction of Euro Disney. My take is that if french culture cannot withstand the influence of a cartoon mouse or a clown peddleing hamburgers, then maybe it's not all it's cracked up to be.

Germany protests us while never acknowledging the presence of hundreds of thousands AMERICAN military on the frontier to deter the aggression of the Soviet Union. BTW, you are welcome.


We, as Americans, regardless of how imperfect we are, how inconsistent & flawed we are, at least TRY to solve problems. The rest of the world (with the noted exception of those aiding us in this cause, however imperfect it may be) sits idly on their hands and hopes that problems disappear by themselves.

It's EASY to protest our actions. The HARD part is to find the fortitude to try to make something happen. The majority of the world repeatedly chooses to take the easy path.


We don't.

[becka]

** stands and claps for JimB ***

[suzannen]

Good post, JimB!

[fklhou]

LOL. I am truly amused about the silliness of the attempts to overplay the amount of support that the US/UK are getting from the "coalition of the willing." Lets look at the number of troops provided by each of these so call supporters. See http://www.areporter.com/sys-tmpl/t...onofthewilling/ <http://www.areporter.com/sys-tmpl/thecoalitionofthewilling/> Remember that only troops from the UK, the US and Australia are actually be in combat.

Second, lets compare the "coalition of the willing" to the coalition built by Bush 41. See.http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...usa_alliance_dc <http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=584&ncid=584&e=1&u=/nm/20030320/pl_nm/iraq_usa_alliance_dc> The comparison is so sticking that the statements on this board about the support for the current invasion are truly amusing. We have three countries providing combat troops (assuming you count the 2,000 aussies) compared to 16 in 1991.

The conservatives can try to paint a rosy picture here but they are simply ignoring the facts.

[AllyandJack]

Hooray for JimB!!!!

[JimB.]

The conservatives can try to paint a rosy picture here but they are simply ignoring the facts

You mean the rosy pictures & facts from Iraq painted by the liberal media??

Little Property damage

Few civilian casualties

Iraqi troops surrendering without a fight

Securing of port and airfield facilities inside Iraq.

Perhaps the head of the snake is gone already?


The success of this to date really galls you, doesn't it??

[AllyandJack]

Who cares about the "coalition of the willing"? If people thought we were so wrong, why aren't they helping Saddam instead of sitting on their hands and pointing the finger of blame at us?? They just won't take an active part because they're afraid 9/11 will pay them a visit. They can run and hide and cry "please don't hurt me" all they want, but until they actually start fighting AGAINST us and FOR Iraq, I'm going to continue to believe that they agree with us but don't have the courage to do something about it.

We have nothing to lose...we're going to be attacked whether we go after Saddam or not.

[bsnyder]

*claps, cheers, and whistles loudly for JimB*

Someone once said (I forget who) that no country ever has true friends, they just have allies with mutual interests.

[Shelly]

Yes Jim B! Everyone is simply jealous of us. It's no different then kids in jr. high and high school.
The rich kid, everyone is so jealous of so all the kids get together and make fun of him to make them feel bad. Always just pretending to be there friend.

Those other countries have pretended for years and years to be our friends and the truth has now shown itself. It really doesn't matter what anyone thinks of you, just like in high school, you can choose to ignore them and stick with your true friends.

And those that complain about Bush always will have an excuse as to why they won't leave this country, none of them very good. These are the type that aren't happy unless they have something to complain about. All of us know this type.

[damo]

Anyone see "Bowling for Columbine"? I think it answers the original poster's question.

[TiggerPiglet]

Originally posted by AllyandJack
The only thing that sort of bothers me...and this might just be a standard procedure, I don't know....but, why are we flying the American flag over there? If we're trying to prove that we don't want to take over, should we do that? Maybe someone knows more about this. That would look a little alarming to me as an Iraqi citizen.

As I support the President's decision to go to war, I am too confused by this. Does anyone know why this is done?

[JimB.]

As I support the President's decision to go to war, I am too confused by this. Does anyone know why this is done?

This was just addressed on Fox News.

It has been described as "youthful exuberance" of the young troops more than anything.

It is a valid concern (& I agree with it) that is being addressed by the troop commanders in the field.

We will probably see that practice come to a halt pretty quickly.

[Serena]

The flag was taken down. Or that's what I heard.

[TiggerPiglet]

Thanks for the infor JimB:D

[100%Disney]

The world also gets bombarded with images of protests from around the world, thanks to the media. They don't like to show the fact that, MOST people in Iraq are desperate for liberation, they are thankful for this war. My Dad is in the military, in fact he could retire at any time with full benefits, but he doesn't. He has been to many countries, he was in the Phillipines for 6 months last year and spent a year in S. Korea. The vast majority of people in those countries appreciate the help that America gives to them. There have also been lots of pro-war rallies, even in France, they are just not as interesting for the media to cover, obviously. I am proud to be a citizen of the U.S. and I am proud of our current leadership, Clinton really cut our military to the core during his presidency, Bush is at least trying to fix things. I DO NOT TRUST Saddam, he kills his own people and if you have watched any of the stories about his two evil sons, it will scare you even more. If there is the slightest chance he has WMD, or that he might het them, he has to go. I also feel that way about the current leadership in N. Korea, left unchanged we will have another 9/11 or worse nuclear war. America is the greatest country, we truly care, yes we are powerful and power is scary to those who don't have it.

[AllyandJack]

There was a protest in Boston led by someone carrying an Iraq flag. I know how it irritates me to see someone flying another flag in this country, so I figured they would feel the same way about us flying ours over there.

It's good to know it was just an excited kid and that it was taken down. I wouldn't want anyone to get insulted and I think we should be extra careful to prove to people that our intentions are decent. Not that they'll believe it, but we should try our best anyway.

[Mary Jo]

<font color=navy>Excellent post, JimB.

While I admit that the United States of America (I have to smile when I type that - I love my country), does so much for other countries, I also have to admit that I believe that our country helps others for various reasons:

* It's the right thing to do
* It's the right thing to do - in our mind
* The US will help others, and in the long run, help ourselves because of the positive outcome of that aid - a country that has a good economic base will buy our goods, services, etc., or will sell us their goods/services, etc., at a better cost for us

I have seen first-hand the arrogance of Americans who go overseas with the attitude that everyone owes us their gratitude. Who actually expected people to speak English and to treat them with deference .... I am American - You OWE Me!.

It was apalling behavior, and I was embarrassed to call them my countrymen ... and this is more common than we may think.

How many people have been helped - do you forever feel that you have to show how thankful you are everytime you meet that person again? If you invite that person for dinner, do you serve him/her sirloin/lobster while the rest of the family may eat meatloaf, because, after all, that person helped you 20 years ago -- and you should be grateful. What if that person told you every time he/she saw you, "Well, you know, I did save you that time - you owe me."

Don't you think you would start to feel just a little resentful ... how tempted would you be to roll your eyes (here we go again).

Now, think of going through that for years and years.

When you help someone - just because it's right - do you expect undying gratitude? If you help someone because you know that by them standing on their feet, they'll contribute to you - isn't that called good business? Should you then continue to throw it in their face? Why? What does it accomplish?

The US uses its $ and military strength to influence the world - in the end we win. Not everyone likes it - not everyone appreciates it - but that is life, and frankly, to be expected (and I think - good thing it's us that has the power than some others out there). I can think of several nations who have lost their identity here on our own soil. Yes, they have an easier life - but, at what cost.

I also ask - who forces these countries to buy American products, dress like Americans, etc. Business pressures, peer pressures, etc .... Then again, I ask, Why does America sell land and businesses to other countries, and why do we have warehouses in Mexico, which caused so many in our border cities to lose their jobs? It's all about $$ - nothing to do w/being a good Samaritan.