Can we talk cars?

[BRERALEX]

speaking of cars.......ya i know i havent heard much about the cars (GCURLINGS BABY!!!!!!!) in a long time and i always liked hearing which car people liked so.....................I was wondering with so manyy new faces and stuff and time has passed, which car are you in

Car # 1. Generally believe that today's business processes are able to produce products that people consider Magic with the same consistency as throughout Disney's past.

Car # 2. Generally believe that today's business processes aren't producing products that people consider Magic with the same consistency as throughout Disney's past, but there is a personal belief that those processes will be changed soon to regain that consistency.

Car # 3. Generally believe that today's business processes aren't producing products that people consider Magic with the same consistency as throughout Disney's past, and there is a personal belief that those processes are unlikely to soon change and regain that consistency.

Car # 4. Generally believe that today's business practices mirror non-Disney practices that never produced consistent Magic, and Six Flags is as likely to produce a product that people consider Magic as is Disney.

i dont like polls i just wanted to get a feel of where everyone was at and where everyone was comming from. how strongly do you feel about your car and well is it running.

i used to be in car number #1 driving blindly till i hit the Dis. then i was in #2 'hey theres always hope' i thought but two years later really im in car #3 more and more leaning to less disney and more cancun.

[WDWHound]

I am still in car number 3, as I have been for many years. I must admit that Car number 4 may be a possiblity for me if things don't change in the next 5 years.

[WebmasterCricket]

I'm not sure which one I like better:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid47/p3f1d9661624d71986bc2c0d9056dade1/fcc637c1.gif

-or-

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid47/p57ab42c92739bc492ca60c6c90c35a83/fcc637bf.gif

[space42]

Originally posted by Mr. J. Cricket
I'm not sure which one I like better:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid47/p3f1d9661624d71986bc2c0d9056dade1/fcc637c1.gif

-or-

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid47/p57ab42c92739bc492ca60c6c90c35a83/fcc637bf.gif

Cool! But I think we are going to need a bigger car.. make it a stretch.... wait, better make it a super stretch :D

[daannzzz]

Car 3 here. I think they are capapable though it is more difficult in todays business climate. I do think they can still do it. It is a question of bowing to pressure of percentages, the street and profit and all that.

[WebmasterCricket]

Originally posted by space42
Cool! But I think we are going to need a bigger car.. make it a stretch.... wait, better make it a super stretch :D

Ok, but if we are going to go nuts, I'm putting in a pool with a diving board too. :p

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid47/p2c2c2f2fa60bfdf43df2c82d92cf4ee3/fcc630e3.gif

JC

[KNWVIKING]

I'm 43 and never gave a rats butt about Walt,DL or WDW. Our 1st trip was in '95 with DW and two DS's. We absolutely loved the place. Went back in 98,still loved it,bought into DVC. Since then we've added onto original contract & bought into VWL and BCV. We go 3-5 times a year, still love it. I guess I'm a car #1.5. WDW has yet to not WOW me. I do notice more CM's who are lacking that Disney magic,but I chock that up more to todays workforce rather then an internal problem at Disney.

[Planogirl]

I'm still in car no. 3 where I've been for quite a while now and unfortunately I see no reason to change at this time. :( I do remember when I was practically running in front of car no. 1, I still have hope to get back to the front running car someday.

(GO AWAY, M.E.!)

[DVC-Landbaron]

Surely I don't have to post a preference, do I? ;)

And I assume I'm still driving? :cool:

[BRERALEX]

Surely I don't have to post a preference, do I?

people that dont even know you baron can see it written all over your face D3V3C3-L3a3n3d3b3a3r3o3n .

I just wanted to make sure you were renewing your license!!!!

:bounce:

[Maistre Gracey]

I'm in car 1.5.
I get a good chuckle reading this forum, as no matter what news happens, it will get a negative spin. Disney could master mind something that would bring the house down, and somehow it would be spun and portrayed as a tactic for Eisner to build a bigger house. No matter what Disney does, folks here will find a way to blame Eisner/Disney, even if it is something positive. Seriously, this is not a 'Disney Rumors and News' forum, it is a 'Disney Doom and Gloom' forum.
I do understand that most here rag on Disney simply because they love Disney and want to see it get better, and not go down the toilet....I agree with that.
Don't get me wrong...things are not perfect, and I understand that work needs to be done. I am not wearing rose colored glasses, but neither am I wearing black ones.

[DisneyKidds]

Seriously, this is not a 'Disney Rumors and News' forum, it is a 'Disney Doom and Gloom' forum.
Ah, we don't all feel that way on this corner of the DIS.
things are not perfect, and I understand that work needs to be done. I am not wearing rose colored glasses, but neither am I wearing black ones.
I'm with you. Disney does have it's warts as of late (the fact that that "late" is going on 3+ years has me shading closer and closer to car 2), but I'm another car 1.5er here. Ok, maybe 1.75 ;), or 1.85 :eek:......ummm 1.95 :(.

No mistaking, it is a rather tough love crowd in these here parts!

[mickey1010]

I've firmly planted my butt in car #2. I am an eternal optimist so I believe things will soon get better...If I was a shade more pessimistic, I'd probably be sittin' on the trunk of car #2 trying to decide if there was enough room for me to jump to car #3.

:smooth:

[WebmasterCricket]

Originally posted by Maistre Gracey
Disney could master mind something that would bring the house down, and somehow it would be spun and portrayed as a tactic for Eisner to build a bigger house. No matter what Disney does, folks here will find a way to blame Eisner/Disney, even if it is something positive.

Not everyone will spin things a bad way whether or not the general consensus be bad or good. However in just about every case, there will be differing opinions on the positive or negative impact on ANY changes made.

Being in a certain car shouldn't have much effect on the opinion of a passenger. Your ride preference just shows an overall picture.

If I have a gripe over any decision that is made, who should I "blame" if not Eisner/Disney?

JC

[All Aboard]

Violating my own rule here (the one hoping we would stop categorizing thoughts into car groups.) But, hey, I did start the whole thing a couple of years ago.

I'm still the driver of Car #2. The return of EE, the loss of Pressler, the new opening ceremony at MK, the hint that some $ may be flowing to Epcot, the hope of another E at AK are all keeping me out of Car #3.

Where's my buddy YoHo, shouldn't his Harley be rolling down the road somewhere between my car and Baron's??

[larworth]

I continue to classify myself as a 2.5'er. This represents my stance on a couple of different levels.

The stated car definitions differentiate largely on our different levels of optimism. Just as important a difference is how FAR we each think the company has drifted away from those business processes that had consistently produced the Magic.

I only think there will be a change if they get a clear disapproval message from customers, if they are open to admitting their mistakes, and if business conditions give them the freedom to take the necessary corrective action. I'm only moderately optimistic these stars will align in the near future.

I don’t think everything they have done over the last 5 or so years is devoid of Magic, nor is every decision borne out of the wrong philosophy. But the batting averages have swung enough in the wrong direction to make 2.5 feel about right.

[WEDWAY100]

I have to dissect the car 4 definition to really figure out where I am. Here goes:

Car 4 part I
Car # 4. Generally believe that today's business practices mirror non-Disney practices that never produced consistent Magic
I agree completely. The key word here for me is consistent. Their current practices can and do produce magic, but certainly not consistently. The current practices are far from the original practices that created DL.

Car 4 part II
Car # 4. ...and Six Flags is as likely to produce a product that people consider Magic as is Disney.
I disagree with this part. Disney’s current business practices do have a better chance of producing magic than Six Flags. But not much more of a chance.

Since fractional cars seem to be the trend, I’ll go with car 3.5. Maybe that means I am being dragged behind car 3, with the Baron taking the corners as fast as he can.

[HB2K]

Once the pandora's box is opened, it's not going to be shut.

You can't make an omlett without the eggs.

If you don't have the talent, you can't put on a show. The Disney company got rid of, or lost most of the talent they had...thinking that people would buy because of a name.

They did. Once they realized the name meant something different than what it used to, they don't keep buying because of the name.

The Disney brand name does not mean what it used to to the general public....evidenced by the recent results of DAK, the embarasment in California, Treasure Planet, etc. Heck, the main reason Treasure tanked, IMHO, is because of the name.

[raidermatt]

Full-fledged three here. The dark side is truly engulfing the company. I feel like one of the last Jedi fighting an unwinnable battle.

Uncertain the future is. The dark side clouds everything...


Disney could master mind something that would bring the house down, and somehow it would be spun and portrayed as a tactic for Eisner to build a bigger house.

Please, oh please tell me of something significant they have master-minded recently that brought the house down...

There have been a few success in the family film area (Princess Diaries, The Rookie), and one in animated films (L&S). Very nice, but "bringing down the house"? Signs? Ok, there's one. What about Pearl, Country Bears, endless animated sequels, etc.

Then there's the parks, AK, including the DR addition, DCA, DLP, everything except Tokyo Disney Seas, and then only because somebody else wanted to spend the money.

What are these things they are doing that are "bringing down the house", yet getting panned here?

Tell me, because I would love to find out that those numbers coming out in the quarterly reports were wrong, as were the attendance figures, and that Treasure Planet, Dinosaur and Atlantis didn't really tank, and that Pixar isn't itching to get out of their Disney deal, and Dinorama was some kind of mirage, and DCA was an elaborate April Fool's joke, and Epcot hasn't really been neglected for the last 10 years, and Eisner didn't really bring in Ovitz, and Disney truly is planning a celebration befitting Disneyland's 50th birthday, and Pop Century was built by trespassing hobgoblins....

[pooh071567]

I'm fairly new this forum and in car 1.5 I would have to agree to Maistre Gracey. Disney can't please everyone. I'm of the opinion that if you don't like something, don't buy it, don't visit it, etc. Life is too short to get excited about the little things.

[raidermatt]

I'm of the opinion that if you don't like something, don't buy it, don't visit it, etc.
Judging by park attendance and box office receipts, you are not alone in your thinking!

[pooh071567]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Judging by park attendance and box office receipts, you are not alone in your thinking!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Are we sure that the park attendance and box office receipts are reflecting people's disinterest in Disney and not the shape of our current economy??

[HB2K]

Are we sure that the park attendance and box office receipts are reflecting people's disinterest in Disney and not the shape of our current economy??

Yes.

If it was they economy, all box office results would be down. There's a certain movie that Disney initally funded, then gave away, that's making BILLIONS. So that disproves the whole "the economy hurt Treasure Planet" arguement. People are paying to see movies....just not Disney movies.

As for the theme parks, other parks continue to expand. Other parks continue to drum up business. Disney sits on it's hands. That's the reason the theme parks are suffering....Disney is giving you back things they took away and advertising them as new reasons to come back. I mean let's face it, people aren't going to go back to Orlando soley because Early Entry is back.

It's not the economy. It's the public's perception of the brand name. Disney isn't associated with quality or family anymore. They're associated with big business & cheap products.

[DisneyKidds]

It's not the economy. It's the public's perception of the brand name. Disney isn't associated with quality or family anymore. They're associated with big business & cheap products.
You can't make more of a car 4 statement than that ;).

I think there are a lot of things in play. Yes, Disney has not done as much as some other destinations to keep the parks prosperous in the economic climate of the past few years. They have not been making many additions and that is a bad thing. However, Disney is not the only destination with attendance declines. Disney should be doing more, but even if they had I think other things would still be a factor. No doubt that Disney could be in a better position had they made better decisions, but it still would be difficult.

As for Disney not being associated with family anymore - I disagree. Disney may not blow the other destinations away like they used to, but I wouldn't say they are no longer family friendly and they are all about big and cheap.

[raidermatt]

Are we sure that the park attendance and box office receipts are reflecting people's disinterest in Disney and not the shape of our current economy??

HB2K is right about the movies. TP did not fail to reach $40 million because of the economy.

Admittedly, theme parks are a little trickier to evaluate. Clearly the economy has some impact. But look at what happened at the Disneyland Resort last year, where a Disneyland with no new attractions increased its attendance, while DCA dropped. DCA actually dropped when the prior year wasn't even a complete year for the park, and 2002 saw the additions of Flik's Fun Fair and the Summer Music Series.

[HB2K]

What product has Disney released for the entire family? TP was geared towards tweeners & adults...the Disney store is basically for children now....none of the newer products appeal to the family as a unit.

[Jeff in BigD]

Originally posted by pooh071567
Are we sure that the park attendance and box office receipts are reflecting people's disinterest in Disney and not the shape of our current economy??
Take a look at the box office numbers for things like LOTR...it ain't the economy, especially since Disney films are usually a lock for at least one screening for families. Also I believe that Conde Nast reported that national travel was up in 2002 (but don't quote me on that). If you went to a local mall this past holiday season you'd see that plenty of people are spending cash.


I don't think it's all about doom & gloom. Indy wowed me, Fantasmic (DL) was awesome & I was impressed with (though I'll probably never ride it again ;)) ToT. The problem is these days anything that has potential gets a budget that would have made legends like Marc Davis believe that they left off a zero or two. Illuminations is the only thing I've seen lately that has really blown me away.

I think when you close a crowd favorite like Imagination & replace it with something that even ME hates, you're leaving yourself wide open. Test Track was billed as a marvel, but it opened, what 1-2 years after it was supposed to & after riding it I felt it was cool & all but I also felt like, "this is it?" The New (ok the new, new, new) Tomorrowland was supposed to bring people in & the answer was putting the Astrojets in front, practically on Mainstreet? They add music to Space Mountain (which I'm told made the ride even more fun), but don't bother to fix them when they went out, which (even though it's the same as before) to the rider it now seems broken. Rocket Rods were fun, but their life was shorter than David Duke's political career & when they were running they went down faster than Lewin...nevermind. :eek:

Then we see TDS & see that the ability is still there, but the drive isn't when it comes to the parks Stateside.



I think of it like this:
Suppose you have a steakhouse you've been going to for years (DL) & the food & amenities (attractions) are the best you've ever had & the waiters (CMs) give service that is second to none fulfilling any request with all promptness & courtesy.

There isn't one on every corner, but you don't mind driving out of your way & paying a little more for this excellent establishment. As time progresses the prices raise to adjust for inflation, which is the case with everything, so it's an acceptable practice. It's become a place that your family enjoys & loves going to.

Then you start to notice things that make you upset - the tables aren't as spotless as they once were. Some of the waiters are trying to put their best out there, but they're obviously burntout (from taking too many shifts to make up for a sudden lack of staff) or frustrated with mindless policies & guests are becoming ruder more frequently. Their hours of operation shorten, making the waits a lot longer than they'd been before - to their credit they have started taking reservations (fastpass), but it still means a longer wait. You also notice that the cuts of filet & prime rib are becoming increasingly fatty & some of them have been replaced with meatloaf & ground beef.

You also notice the minor details - the butter chips that were once sculpted are replaces with wrapped Land-o-Lakes butter pats. The napkins that were once folded into a beautiful swan or nice pattern are now simply rolled up with the silverware. The glasses that were so carefully polished now occasionally have water spots or lipstick stains on them. Extra butter for your baked potato is now a charge added to your bill & you've heard rumors that the soon the baked potato will be an aditionally charged item altogether. All this & the prices have jumped up a lot more than they reasonably would.

You ask to speak to a manager regarding your concerns & you get a well versed excuse as to the new policies & you almost feel as though the manager really doesn't care too much either. You shake your head looking at another table in earshot, expecting to get a sympathetic look, but instead get a dirty "shut up & eat your food" look. After this goes on for a while you become disheartened. Sure it's better than an Outback or Steak & Ale, but that gap has been severely shortened & you can't help but remember how great the place was a few years back. You finally realize that until you see a sign reading "under new management" things are not going to change for the better.


That is why I'm in Car 3.

[pooh071567]

Well you all are just too smart for me! I'm outa here!;)

[HB2K]

I'll give you the movies. I'm not as big on my movie numbers and honestly forgot most of those (even though I own most of them).

As for the parks issue...Six Flags is installing products which rival Disney's latest offerings (i.e. just about all of DCA & DinoRama) or trumps them. Look at Screamscape.com for updates to their parks nation wide.

Cedar Farms just announced they are building the tallest roller coster in the world.

Now you may not be a coaster rider. If you're not a coaster rider, you're not their niche, so it may not mean much to you. I look at it like this. Cedar Farms reputation is that they are one of the premier parks for Roller Coasters. They could have easily cashed in on that brand name reputation and put in a second rate coaster and still had people come to their parks.

But they didn't. They made a bold and calculated move by investing money in a ride which differenciates them from ANY other roller coaster park. They will build the tallest, fastest coster in the world. They will re-inforce their brand name recognition to their customers as the premier roller coaster theme park in the nation.

That is what's wrong with Disney. They chose the other route, starting with Animal Kingdom. They had a reputation as being the PREMIERE theme park & vacation company. Then they decided to build a new theme park.

Contrary to what Cedar did, Disney decided to cash in their brand name image and build an inferior product. And they succeeded. The early returns from DAK were mostly positive if memory serves correctly. Disney built it, and people came.

Then the trouble starts. Disney leaves the park stagnant. Guests who visited DAK the first time based on the fact that it was a Disney park wanted more. They gave Disney a mulligan when they visited the first time...but they wanted results the next time they visited....and Disney didn't provide those results. So attendance dropped.

So in an effort to further cash in on what was left of the brand name recognition, the company adds a second rate addittion to their inferior theme park, further burying their brand name recognition as the premier theme park company.

And now they build yet another inferior theme park (DCA), once again hoping to cash in their percieved value of the brand name.

What happened? They found out that you can only fool the public for so long. They found out how much damage they did to the brand name recognition.

[DisneyKidds]

Outback
Totally unrelated (but not really, I guess......................;))

Outback spends a higher % of revenue on the food product than any other restaurant. The quality at Outback is very high, yet the prices are relatively low. I believe the Baron would call the Outback the "1972 WDW of steakhouses". Great quality, low price (lower than all the other guys) and unequalled VALUE, VALUE, VALUE. Yes, Outback is more expensive than some, but less than any other of comparable set up and quality - if you can find it. That VALUE concept is a formula that many believe worked for Disney in the 50's and 70's, and is working today in some industries.

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by pooh071567
Well you all are just too smart for me! I'm outa here!;)
Hey, it is a very good question, and one we haven't kicked around (or beat to death ;)) in more than a few months.

[sorcerermikey]

Having watched baron drive car 3 by for months I've finally hitched a ride. But considering the tone of this thread I'd like to point out that car 3ers still go and still enjoy the heck out of it when there. That's been stated many, many times. Despite solid car 3 beliefs and feelings, it's not a "doom and gloom" board. Just a realistic, apprehensive one. I'm going this saturday and today I feel like a kid before christmas (felt the same way on my last trip 12/20-22 but the analogy would have sounded really stupid at that time).

[HB2K]

Scoop,

You missed my point. Cedar farms has a different customer base than Disney. They are both in the theme park business, but they go after different market segments.

The point is not whether the ride could fit in Disney's park. The point is the commitment that Cedar makes to it's customers. They are re-investing money in their park, and they do it BIG. They don't need to build the largest roller coaster in the world to expand. They could have built Dino Rama style rides. And their guests would come. But would they come back again? Would they still think of Cedar as one of the premier Roller Coaster parks in the nation?

[Bob O]

The dscoop, the movies you mentioned are good for kids, but the entire family, NO!!!
Alot of other parks are expanding their offerings and investing in their parks. Alot of parks are putting in rides, movies etc. Universal is adding several attractions to both parks,Six Flags is adding rides/shows inseveral parks as is Cedar Point. And while the rides wouldnt be found in a disney park they are still major investments of time and money to improve their guests experience which disney hasnt been doing much of as late. PW which was added at AK is alot cheaper im sure than the new ride CP is building and rides/attractions that are being put in other parks. For Ceadr Point to invest 25 million dollars on a sinlge ride for a park only open part of the year is as big a investment as disney has made in their park with their own money in several years.
I would agree with Hb2k posts on this subject!!!!!
What disney should be doing is trying to make a attraction that outdoes the best of their competitor's and that would be making a interactive ride better than MIB and Spiderman which are considered the best ride's of their type in the world. But instead we get spinning type rides and a coaster that can be found IN ANY theme park and alot of carnivals, and that is supposed to get people to come back???

[WebmasterCricket]

Originally posted by HB2K
Cedar farms has a different customer base than Disney. They are both in the theme park business, but they go after different market segments.

Cedar Point is an amusement park.

Disney is a theme park.

There is a fundamental difference between a coherent theme park and a parking lot filled with rides aimed at taking your money and driving you into a puking stupor.

[DisneyKidds]

Some good points about Cedar Point, Six Flags, etc. However, much of what you talk about has yet to be built. If we are going to count that, doesn't M:S count for anything?

[raidermatt]

BobO, gotta disagree with you on SC2, The Princess Diaries, L&S and The Rookie. Those are most definitely family movies. Haven't seen SpyKids and Snow Dogs, but they did strike me as more "kiddie" fair than family fair, but that's just based on the trailers.

There is a fundamental difference between a coherent theme park and a parking lot filled with rides aimed at taking your money and driving you into a puking stupor.
I don't think anybody disagrees.

HB2K's point is that these other parks are making more of an effort to provide new offerings that their customers want.

Disney would have us believe that is because the Disney guest base does not demand as much in the way of new offerings. There maybe some truth to that, but I think Disney has gone too far.

However, much of what you talk about has yet to be built. If we are going to count that, doesn't M:S count for anything?
I'd say that's a big yes. But WDW is a 4-park complex charging "4-park dollars" and asking for "4-park time", and then some. Their ratio of significant new offerings to number of parks seems to be far lower than other parks. I'm not saying it has to be equal, but I do believe its too far behind. Especially given the smaller opening scale of MGM and AK.

[HB2K]

Cedar Point is an amusement park.

Disney is a theme park.
But Business is business. Each company has it's customers (or market). Cedar is choosing the "old Disney" way of keeping theirs, by building more than they have to, by exceeding customer expectations, by not doing enough to get by.

They didn't need to build the tallest, fastest coaster in the world to please their customers. They could have built a lesser ride and still pleased their clientle...but they didn't. They made a bold statement. They said "let's build the tallest, fastest roller coaster in the WORLD."

When was the last time Disney dared to reach for the stars and do something with their theme parks which was a statement...which made them stand out from the rest of the world?

The last thing I can think of was Tower.

(NOTE: I've never been to Cedar. I'm using them as an example)

There is a fundamental difference between a coherent theme park and a parking lot filled with rides aimed at taking your money and driving you into a puking stupor.
I know, that's why I'm applauding Cedar. They're not building little carnivals and annoucing them as full scale expansions.

(NOTE: I know I just twisted that comment on you. But isn't it sad that Disney's newest offerings even lend themselves to the twist?)

[Jeff in BigD]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
Totally unrelated (but not really, I guess......................;))

Outback spends a higher % of revenue on the food product than any other restaurant. The quality at Outback is very high, yet the prices are relatively low. I believe the Baron would call the Outback the "1972 WDW of steakhouses". Great quality, low price (lower than all the other guys) and unequalled VALUE, VALUE, VALUE. Yes, Outback is more expensive than some, but less than any other of comparable set up and quality - if you can find it. That VALUE concept is a formula that many believe worked for Disney in the 50's and 70's, and is working today in some industries.
Ok, since we're elaborating on my analogy... ;)

Outback is great for what it is, a moderately priced resturant with pretty good food. You can get a couple steaks & a bottle of wine for about $60. The service, while usually a little better than you'd get at Chili's or Bennigan's, it's not something that you'd think of as a selling point & it's doubtful that they'd be knowledgable about the company's past or it's future.

The wine list is adequate, though a little on the short side for a steakhouse. You wouldn't expect the waiter to be able to make suggestions on pairing wine with the meal or be able to make a great wine presentation. It's not a place people usually make plans for 24 hours in advance. The ambiance isn't much different than what you get at a Fridays & it's still from the mindset to try to get customers out in a pretty timely fashion. If you tell people you went to Outback there's no "ooh" factor there.

Then consider that for another $20-30 you can go to an establishment with impecable service, nice ambiance & feeling as though you're being pampered. You'll need to make arrangements to go there, but when you're there you don't feel rushed, almost like it's a spa for your stomach. My guess is when you're still paying that price, but the restaurant starts to remind you more & more of an Outback, you'll start to wonder why you don't just pay less & go to the Outback on your block instead.

[HB2K]

HB2K's point is that these other parks are making more of an effort to provide new offerings that their customers want.
I'm glad someone got my point :)

Some good points about Cedar Point, Six Flags, etc. However, much of what you talk about has yet to be built. If we are going to count that, doesn't M:S count for anything?
Matt already answered this for me, but let me say this. Yes M:S counts for something, but it's not enough. Disney has neglected EPCOT for years. Test Track & M:S are good adds, but the minuses that exist throughout the complex outnumber the positives today.

[Planogirl]

I agree with HB2K too. Cedar Point and WDW are in no way similar in style but they each have their niche. Cedar Point seems to be pushing the envelope at developing those attractions that they do best and offering more and better to their clientele while WDW seems to mostly on their laurels or just install little cheap-o rides to say that they installed something. Hopefully, Mission Space will change that but they have a ways to go IMO before they can be labelled progressive nowadays.

[Bob O]

Raidermatt-I saw Snow dogs as my daughters got the dvd for x-mas and while its a nice kids movie its not something a adult would choose to see on his own and i wouldnt go and see any of the movies you mentioned on my own. Now LOTR is a great family movie, one where all can enjoy and adults arent bored and looking at their watches. A family movie should be one gthe whole family can enjoy and not have to be endured by adults!!!
I have been to Cedar Point and while it is no disney in the least it does go after a different audience and most years it does add a top flight attraction which is alot more than disney can say, look at the supposed 100th anniv. celebration, they were unable to add anything close to e ticket or even c ticket but used it to update several parades which was done to seel more snow globes than anything else. If disney were to follow their design at least one park every year would get a E ticket type attraction paid for by disney and not done thru a sponership like MS which is why disney hasnt added anything major in years, they are too cheap to give the guests anything new and are happy to rest on their laurels. And while doing this they cut back on maintence/park hours!!!

[HB2K]

Now LOTR is a great family movie, one where all can enjoy and adults arent bored and looking at their watches.
BobO...I love your opinions and usually we're on the same page but the thought of this makes me shudder.

I've got a 4 year old son. I wouldn't let him dream about LOR for another 5 years....never mind watch the movie.

And while doing this they cut back on maintence/park hours!!!

And when they fix something they broke, they announce it like it's a new attraction.

BTW...I just figured out why Carosel & Timekeeper are closed. They will be the re-opened as WDW's tribute to Disneyland's 50th Anniversary! It's a revolutionary concept....recycle your attractions. It's like children. Mothers rotate a child's toys so they all stay fresh, Disney will do the same with attractions.

[HB2K]

parkPlaces like Kings Island and Cedar Point and Six Flags Over Georgia or Kentucky Kingdom are great places to catch a quick thrill for around 40 bucks or so. But, if you go to these places all they are are a collection of rides placed on top of concrete without any goal other than thrillng the guest.

Frankly, while they do a good job of that (especially Cedar Point), their expectation level is so low that exceeding it hardly takes any effort.
But, this is really that old kumquats argument.
No it's not. You're straying off of the topic is making it that way.

I was asked to backup my statements that other stateside parks were expanding on grand levels to entice their customers back...even in the tough economy.

I gave you an example. Cedar is clearly doing that, as are others. Disney is not.

My point was not whether a certain ride belongs in WDW. I was not contrasting the two parks either. WDW has thier clientele, they are a theme park. Cedar point is a thrill park. But I stand by my assertion that business is business.

Cedar could have taken the same approach that Disney has. Do nothing, or do it on the cheap. And their customers would still have come.

But they did not.

Not only did they expand they built the best product for their customers in the world. Disney buys the cheapest possible products for theirs.

Finally, things like Mickey's Philarmagic might be sliced and diced on this board as "Ho-hum" but I guarantee that it will be one of the most loved attractions by kids at MK.
And so will Shrek 4d, Jimmy Neutron, et al. Philarmagic will be nice, I'm sure (although AV's musings about possible cost cutting scare me), it's the same old, same old.

So, while it isn't groundbreaking, and might not stir all of our interests on this board, I have a 15 month year old who could care less about Tower of Terror or M:S...but, thought that he'd died and gone to heaven when he headed into the Playhouse Disney show or the Boneyard...
As does my 4 year old scoop. And he loves the spinners, etc. But what happens when he grows up? What happens when he outgrows playhouse disney? Are there other things for him as a tweener? Will they still be there when he's old enough to enjoy them (although he did just about all the rides on our last trip)?

What will be left for my grandchildren when they go, if things keep going at the current rate?

That's why I'm in car 4.

[pheneix]

>>>Places like Kings Island and Cedar Point and Six Flags Over Georgia or Kentucky Kingdom are great places to catch a quick thrill for around 40 bucks or so.<<<

You think Kentucky Kingdom is a great place to catch a thrill? No wonder you're pleased with everything Disney does. :)

Kentucky Kingdom is a tragic amusement park tale, as they were quickly becoming a real contender for Premier bought the place out and intentionally crippled it.

>>>I think it has to compare/contrast parks a little more similar and, at the very least, compare parks which are open year round.<<<

Like, say- Universal? I can already think of two attractions they are developing and or building (The Mummy and IOA's 2005 E-ticket) that are easily on the same level as Disney's classic attractions.

For that matter I would even compare Sea World and Busch Gardens to Disney's parks. The attractions are of lower caliber than Disney's (but at least Busch is trying), but they are definitely cleaner than any Disney park I have been two in the past few years.

>>>I was asked to backup my statements that other stateside parks were expanding on grand levels to entice their customers back...even in the tough economy.<<<

That is absolutely true. To borrow a page from AV's playbook, Disney is the only major theme park operator that is content to blame the audience for it's shortcomings.

[pheneix]

>>>I forgot which one of those two Universal attractions have actually gotten past the Forbidden Mountain stage and been publicly announced?<<<

Last time I checked Forbidden Mountain has not been publicly announced. It also will probably never be built either.

BTW, I'll see you on The Mummy next April, unless you are staring across the lake at Animal Kingdom looking for construction cranes that are "rumored" to be going up any day now...

[pheneix]

As long as Disney thinks they are building an RnRC clone, I'm sure the guys at Universal Creative won't mind.

[Planogirl]

The concept of defending a park by criticizing another has always interested me but I don't really get it. I can't speak for Universal YET and won't bother to defend Sea World since liking or disliking it is clearly a matter of taste but Disney's shortcomings are clear relative to what Disney USED to be. Or at least that's the way it appears to me. They may still be ahead of the others but that lead seems to be narrowing because they don't try all that hard any more while the others do still seem to be trying.

[Another Voice]

From Mr. Scoop -
“Sure, Disney is a four park place but it's admission price is hardly much more than Cedar Point etc. Plus, it has to stay open year round (and all the attendant costs involved of being open during a slow season) as opposed to these others which can bring in a bunch of money during the high season and then hibernate.”

Ah, “has to" stay open with all those “attendant costs” while everyone else in the country basks in glow from their overflowing vaults?

Yes, the Michael Eisner Charities work so hard to help you and me out in the depths of winter. Bringing a smile to our faces in spite of the tremendous costs they must bear. Unlike all those greedy Cedar Point capitalists driving their SUV’s. No, Michael Einser’s own children will go barefoot in winter just so you have to opportunity to pay $300 a night for a hotel room. Mr. Scoop – this is one of the most “interesting” explanations anyone has come up with.

Disney’s money-grubbing at the parks has nothing to do with the parks themselves. Disney's park follow the same investment and return rules that Cedar's parks do. Please, next time you try to excuse away Disney’s unwillingness to invest in the parks (and their guests), please start with ABC, the Studios, Eisner’s corporate jet, the stock options, paying off half of Hollywood and that really huge reserve they’re rumored to be building for ‘Pooh’ before you try to get to the “WDW is nothing but a struggling mom ‘n pop operation” item.


P.S. Universal Orlando now has three attractions under construction – the ‘Mummy’ thrill ride, the Jimmy Neutron simulator and the ‘Shrek 4-D’ film.