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gilesmt
05-24-2012, 03:48 PM
I have been searching and can not find the law that answers this question and I desperately need the answer by Tuesday.

Can you be asked to prove your disability to an public agency.

I know Disney can not ask me to show proof that I am blind. I know businesses can not require me to show proof that I am blind there fore need a service dog. So while in court and asking for reasonable accommodations I was asked to prove by a medical doctor I am legally blind, since I asked them to show it to me in a law and they refused I refused to answer them. Case was continued more than 60 days ago, up til now the state still refuses to give reasonable accommodations because I have refused to give them medical proof that I am blind and need a reader.

Big thing to me is that the judge writes on court papers that I am blind, reason why I don't want to give them more. It is public record and I should not be identified as my disability, I should be identified as my name.

This bothers me because a reader would be like an interpretur IMHO and the court has no quarks about providing an interpreter to Spanish or Chinese and they don't require medical documentation, or any other documentation and nothing against them, many do speak English, just would prefer the hearing to be in there native language.

Anyway the state is title II just like Disney, but the only copies I can pull up are the 2008 and 2010 revised versions of title II. Can anyone help me?

Don't worry I am not in any legal trouble, I am fighting the state to help pay 1/2 of my medical premiums since they are now well over $250 a month and there is a program for them to pay my Medicare premiums and I still would pay my supplemental premiums.

gilesmt
05-24-2012, 03:56 PM
Oh the big deal is in the last order the judge put into record he calls me the blind client on court papers, these are public record and I want to be defined by my name not the blind client, real uneducated judge if you ask me.

Michigan
05-24-2012, 04:07 PM
Because you are asking to receive a service that is only available to someone with a disability they can require you to prove your disability.

A Mickeyfan
05-24-2012, 04:15 PM
I do believe that you must show it to government officials.. just like you must show proof to collect social security if you are disabled and want to collect, just like you must show proof of a medical need for a handicap permit. This is the government, not just a "public" place.. there is a difference. It isn't Disney or Olive Garden.... I know when you try to get out of jury duty, you must show proof...

The Judge should NOT refer to you as the blind client.. and that I would speak up about. You have a name as everyone else, he should use it. That would be like saying the skinny client, the fat client etc... that is dead wrong.. but you do have to show proof.. and that proof would have your "name" lol maybe then he will refer to you by your name..;) I would show him the proof and make it a point he see my name....:flower3:

gilesmt
05-24-2012, 04:36 PM
Can anyone tell me the law. The courts don't ask for a w/c user to prove to them that he needs a ramp, or to sit in the middle of an isle. The courts do not ask the hearing impaired for documentation if they use a TTY or other device. So again, not only the court but the state is there a law and can anyone show it to me. The state has documentation from social security in my file, that is why I am asking them to pay for Medicare, you only get it at my age if you are disabled. On all social security forms it states legally blind or not legally blind, and mine is always stated legally blind. I am not asking for a handicap permit. So if paperwork from social security that states legally blind on them is in there hand and I ask for a reader to interpret and read the paperwork, why should I not be granted that accommodation. I am being treated less fairly than deaf or ambulatory or Spanish people who do not have to prove it.

I need the law, it it states I must than I will, but I will then file a complaint with office of civil rights, for being discrimininated against.

A Mickeyfan
05-24-2012, 04:49 PM
OK.. now I am hearing what you are saying.. they aren't asking for proof from others but only you??? if that is the case, then I totally agree.. that is not fair.. why should you have to and another not.. Yes, I agree with what you are saying.... I thought you were going for something and it was your case.. so therefore you had to prove it...

A Mickeyfan
05-24-2012, 04:53 PM
they have your ss forms correct? do you have an attorney? if so, your attorney should tell them to read the ss forms.. it will state legally blind and that is your PROOF to them.. you need not supply anymore.. wth is wrong with them.. I would file a suit, you are correct.. someone can go in there and claim not to speak English and get help, there are ramps all over... they must be there... but for you NOTHING! :confused3

A Mickeyfan
05-24-2012, 04:55 PM
http://lighthouse.org/

go on this site.. see if there is anything there that can help you..if not contact them.. they may be able to point you in the right direction. I know they do have the SS link, but not sure if they have the actual law... but like I said, they might be able to point you in the right direction.

Cheshire Figment
05-24-2012, 05:07 PM
I think the basic concept under ADA is that if what you are receiving will give equal access as any person without a disability they cannot ask for proof. However, if you are asking for a greater level of access you must provide proof.

Allowing a wheelchair or a service dog gives you equal access as any non-disabled person.

Getting a placard or license plate with a disabled symbol gives you higher access as you are allowed to park in a disabled space while a person without a disability is not allowed to park there. Or if they will pay 50$ of the health insurance premium of a disabled person and not a non-disabled person, again that is a higher level of access and requires proof.

SueM in MN
05-24-2012, 05:34 PM
Here is what you a looking for, I think

http://www.ada.gov/pcatoolkit/chap3toolkit.htm

Michigan
05-24-2012, 05:45 PM
Can anyone tell me the law. The courts don't ask for a w/c user to prove to them that he needs a ramp, or to sit in the middle of an isle. The courts do not ask the hearing impaired for documentation if they use a TTY or other device. So again, not only the court but the state is there a law and can anyone show it to me. The state has documentation from social security in my file, that is why I am asking them to pay for Medicare, you only get it at my age if you are disabled. On all social security forms it states legally blind or not legally blind, and mine is always stated legally blind. I am not asking for a handicap permit. So if paperwork from social security that states legally blind on them is in there hand and I ask for a reader to interpret and read the paperwork, why should I not be granted that accommodation. I am being treated less fairly than deaf or ambulatory or Spanish people who do not have to prove it.

I need the law, it it states I must than I will, but I will then file a complaint with office of civil rights, for being discrimininated against.

Wheelchair ramp is providing equal access so it does not require proof of disability. Asking for someone to read documentation or asking for forms in braille for someone who is blind would be equal access and should be provided without asking for proof of disability. Asking for something that something that is not available to everyone else does not require equal access and you can be asked to prove disability.

gilesmt
05-24-2012, 05:58 PM
Sorry I confused the issue, I am not stating weather or not I should prove that I am blind to get medical, that really is not an issue, they are refusing me reasonable accommodations to hear the case, the decision as to if I am disabled and need medical needs no prove, social security has already determined that for them. The question is under title two should I have to prove to the judge I need a reader by providing medical evidence.

I thought of another thing the courts do not ask for proof of, we are all told to stand when the judge enters, they do not ask for proof from the disabled in a w/c so they can sit down.

They are not asking me to proof I need my guide dog there. They are not argguing anything like that, they are only arguing if I need a reader. I can not get thru a hearing without a reader, so yes I do. Ada law states that is it a reasonable accommodation and I can imagine that it is any burden, they could ask the interpreter to read me the paperwork, they already pay them for the Spanish and Chinese and I am not just picking on them, they are just an example, since the interpreter would have to proof that they can speak and read in both language so why not ask them to read for me.

Not to start an argument about this part but just for those curious, my case really should be an easy one the state is just being stupid. The case is that a law states that when you have a disability the state is not allow to use the portion of your pay that is used for reasonable accommodations when figuring out your benefits, so my disability requires me to hire a driver to get to and from work. The state and social security states that the state has to deduct that portion out of my pay and then figure my benefits. This state refuses to do that because they say I am paying to much and could get a driver for cheaper. My case is yes I could, but by law it would be illegal, the state law requires me to pay $9.04 an hour for minimum wage, and I have to report this and I have to pay taxes on the money, so I pay my driver $20 a day to comply with the law. That is $420 a month, that should be and is deducted from my pay for social security, but the state is trying to argue that I could get a driver for cheaper. They say I should find a coworker, or I should find a taxi, which I have tried, but taxi is more expensive and I can not rely on coworkers, they get sick and I never do, they have vacations, they have family issues, they have family and leave early, they quit, I should not be forced to find something else. Buses are not an option and neither is dial a ride, I live two miles out of the zone. They say I should use a driver only for those two miles, again who are they, I would also by law have to pay a worker even if it only takes me two miles, by law you have to pay for two hours a day if your worker comes to work, which is what I pay.

I have not hired a lawyer since I already can not afford my expenses, this is only one of my reasonable accommodations I am claiming, I also claim that by hiring a reader to read the paper work to get thru this process should also deducted, since they have refused to give me a reader to fill out the application and they have refused to allow it on computer, and they have refused to call and read me the paperwork they send to me stating that they need this prove and this prove, like the checks I pay my driver or reader, or the tax forms stating that I paid the taxes of these people. Which is okay for me to have to prove, but I need them to read them to me and Ada states that is not in a format that the individual can understand it is not binding in the eyes of the courts.

Anyway, I am trying to get this to superior court for a real judge, but I have to go to fair hearings and fake judges that are hired by the state to keep state cases out of courts, although they are called courts and make rulings. These judges do not rely know laws like Ada title two.

So in the end I am looking for Ada title II law that can answer is the judge right or wrong, since they are not real judges and if it states I do need it I will bring it Tuesday, if it says no illegal, I will take the law and put that into evidence.

Michigan
05-24-2012, 06:02 PM
Now I understand and the answer is no you do not have to prove you are legally blind to have someone read the papers to you because that is equal access and having to prove you are blind for that is against the law.

gilesmt
05-24-2012, 06:09 PM
Thanks Sue that helps a little but again, I have something similar, the problem is it does not say it I have to proof the fact that I am blind, because the way I read Ada is no I do not have to have proof, by looking at me you can see I can't see and I have a service dog, and the paper work states that I am blind so why put in a court paper or give these people for public record a doctors note?

But thanks sue this does state that my preference, I have asked for months to have it on cd but they have refused, now I asked for a reader, but my preference is cd since then I can use my doc reader and review the pages over and over again and not have to ask for someone to read it again and again.

Michigan
05-24-2012, 06:14 PM
Thanks Sue that helps a little but again, I have something similar, the problem is it does not say it I have to proof the fact that I am blind, because the way I read Ada is no I do not have to have proof, by looking at me you can see I can't see and I have a service dog, and the paper work states that I am blind so why put in a court paper or give these people for public record a doctors note?

But thanks sue this does state that my preference, I have asked for months to have it on cd but they have refused, now I asked for a reader, but my preference is cd since then I can use my doc reader and review the pages over and over again and not have to ask for someone to read it again and again.
You are correct the cd reader is equal access and you do not have to prove disability. I would let them know if they don't provide a cd that you will file a complaint with the DOJ. You don't need a lawyer to file a complaint.

SueM in MN
05-24-2012, 08:47 PM
i didnt have time to write much before since i was just on a quick break.

What I posted before is a workbook for effective communication under Title II of the ADA covering State and Local government programs and services.
This is a link to Title II:
http://www.ada.gov/taman2.html

All of the provisions of Title II apply to the workbook I posted before. This is what public entities are covered ( so would include courts):
II-1.2000 Public entity. A public entity covered by title II is defined as --

1) Any State or local government;

2) Any department, agency, special purpose district, or other instrumentality of a State or local government; or

3) Certain commuter authorities as well as AMTRAK.

This is information about disabilities that are included ( general first):
II-2.1000 General. Title II of the ADA prohibits discrimination against any "qualified individual with a disability." Whether a particular individual is protected by title II requires a careful analysis first, of whether an individual is an "individual with a disability," and then whether that individual is "qualified."

More specific about what qualifies as a disability, in that it must limit a Major life activity:
II-2.4000 Substantial limitation of a major life activity. To constitute a "disability," a condition must substantially limit a major life activity. Major life activities include such activities as caring for one's self, performing manual tasks, walking, seeing, hearing, speaking, breathing, learning, and working.

Qualified individuals ( this is more for saying who can be included in progrms):
II-2.8000 Qualified individual with a disability. In order to be an individual protected by title II, the individual must be a "qualified" individual with a disability. To be qualified, the individual with a disability must meet the essential eligibility requirements for receipt of services or participation in a public entity's programs, activities, or services with or without --

1) Reasonable modifications to a public entity's rules, policies, or practices;

2) Removal of architectural, communication, or transportation barriers; or

3) Provision of auxiliary aids and services.

Here's something that says you can't be asked to provide unreasonable proof:
II-3.5300 Unnecessary inquiries. A public entity may not make unnecessary inquiries into the existence of a disability.

ILLUSTRATION: A municipal recreation department summer camp requires parents to fill out a questionnaire and to submit medical documentation regarding their children's ability to participate in various camp activities. The questionnaire is acceptable, if the recreation department can demonstrate that each piece of information requested is needed to ensure safe participation in camp activities. The Department, however, may not use this information to screen out children with disabilities from admittance to the camp.

As Michigan mentioned, if they won't provide what you need, you can file a complaint.

Talking Hands
05-24-2012, 10:10 PM
Can anyone tell me the law. The courts don't ask for a w/c user to prove to them that he needs a ramp, or to sit in the middle of an isle. The courts do not ask the hearing impaired for documentation if they use a TTY or other device. So again, not only the court but the state is there a law and can anyone show it to me. The state has documentation from social security in my file, that is why I am asking them to pay for Medicare, you only get it at my age if you are disabled. On all social security forms it states legally blind or not legally blind, and mine is always stated legally blind. I am not asking for a handicap permit. So if paperwork from social security that states legally blind on them is in there hand and I ask for a reader to interpret and read the paperwork, why should I not be granted that accommodation. I am being treated less fairly than deaf or ambulatory or Spanish people who do not have to prove it.

I need the law, it it states I must than I will, but I will then file a complaint with office of civil rights, for being discrimininated against.

Actually to get a free TTY or amplified phone from the state through a federal program you do have to provide proof of your hearing loss. Their is a form we have to fill out and have our ENT or audiologist sign that we need the equipment. To buy a TTY you don't need to use the form. Anyone can buy one just as anyone can buy a regular phone.

SueM in MN
05-24-2012, 10:49 PM
Actually to get a free TTY or amplified phone from the state through a federal program you do have to provide proof of your hearing loss. Their is a form we have to fill out and have our ENT or audiologist sign that we need the equipment. To buy a TTY you don't need to use the form. Anyone can buy one just as anyone can buy a regular phone.
I think what was meant was just to use one in a public place, not to obtain one.

gilesmt
05-25-2012, 12:05 PM
Thank you so much sue, with that information I was able to pull up the cf something, chapter 35 laws in Ada and get the answer, I knew for that state can not ask for documentation, I was just getting lost in all the Ada law and what section it would be in. They can not ask me for documentation for equal access, but if they do not give me the cd rom, which they won't, and yesterday I got all state evidence over 150 pages, not one in large print as requested, and if I ask for above equal access, which I will do now that they refuse, although I will try one more time, then I will have to give proof of disability and a form to say it is confidential and should not be part of the court documents. This would be a free lawyer of my choice paid for by them, yes this is on the books, general rule 33 of Washington state says that if you have been denied reasonable accommodations and you can proof that you can not make it through a court proceeding without those accommodations, than you can ask for a free lawyer, this would be above equal so I must provide proof.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, my heroes. I needed it in written document form to show the law and I now have it. I knew you were all right, but in court you need to show the proof in writing.

gilesmt
05-25-2012, 12:11 PM
Of just for fun because I love to proof a point, first I am going to ask for a motion, that all my paperwork handed to them be blank, and that as of the start of the hearing to end of ruling that neither the judge or the state be allowed to open there eyes. This way we will all be equal as we process the 300 or more pages that is set before us.

And I did file a discrimination act against the hearing office with DOJ civil rights, this has been a 8month process.

bidnow5
05-25-2012, 11:44 PM
Here in Rhode Island there is a Disability Law Office not sure if other states have them but they will provide leagle help free to disabled people in Rhode Island. They helped me get my handicap placard no charge they were great

I Love Pluto
05-28-2012, 12:59 PM
Being right is often not as important as following our manners. Remain polite. Don't get anyone angry at your behaviors or tone of voice. It will be difficult, but you can handle it! :goodvibes

It's a shame that we must PROVE things that really ARE.

gilesmt
05-29-2012, 03:18 PM
Just to let you all know, nothing was determined. I did tell them 28 CFR chapter 35 federal law, RCW 49.60 state law and general rule 33 Washington bar association law. Equal access to all and that I gave them 81 days to figure this out, but they refused. So we will proceed, maybe without accommodations, maybe with, but the final ruling will have to state the reason why, they the court or they the state refused to comply, and then it will go to civil court since I stated on record that they were denying me my civil rights, plus it will go to a board of appeals automatically. I think I did okay, hope other appreciate it. Hate when we try to fight for our rights and then people think we should not, like some thought blind should not have faught Disney, but it needed to be done, just like this did also.