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jsilvers
04-24-2012, 09:33 AM
A thread in another forum (http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2881090) had discussed a lawsuit that was filed against Disney, alleging that it had failed to accommodate visitors with disabilities. Late yesterday, the plaintiffs and Disney announced that they had reached a settlement (which still must be approved by the court).

Some of the original claims have been narrowed or dropped altogether, but Disney would make various practice/policy changes. In addition, the named plaintiffs would get $15,000 each, and their attorneys would get fees/costs of up $1.55 million.

The document itself is 95 pages (http://ia600502.us.archive.org/19/items/gov.uscourts.cacd.479242/gov.uscourts.cacd.479242.196.1.pdf), but it includes the following summary of its key terms:

Under the Settlement Agreement Disney has agreed to enhance the services it currently offers to guests with visual impairments at the Disney Parks and on websites owned or operated by Disney. Those changes include: updating its guidelines regarding the manner in which costumed Disney characters interact with guests accompanied by service animals; providing certain Braille schedules, menus and maps; providing additional audio description and information about facilities and attractions on the handheld device already available to guests with visual disabilities; modifying policies and practices applicable to guests accompanied by service animals, including designating additional relief areas for service animals and modifying the options available to guests accompanied by service animals when service animals cannot ride on certain attractions; providing a limited number of free admission passes to be distributed by an agreed-upon charitable organization serving individuals with visual impairments; modifying guidelines regarding the reserved viewing areas for guests with disabilities at live parades; enhancing locker and parking facilities; and enhancing procedures and standards for making websites owned or operated by Disney accessible to users who access those websites using screen reader software utilities.

Schmeck
04-24-2012, 03:28 PM
I don't usually post on this forum, but this has my dander up - the lawyers get $1.55 million dollars?

Most of the settlement makes sense (except the $15,000 per plaintiff, the lawyers' loot, and the free tickets to a specified group, against ADA policy, BTW) and should benefit some without diminishing the experience for others.

Justin Jett
04-24-2012, 10:19 PM
From the DIS blog:

http://www.disunplugged.com/2012/04/24/disney-and-visually-impaired-guest-propose-class-settlement/

bookwormde
04-25-2012, 06:24 AM
It always surprises me that these things end up in lawsuits since there are so many other ways to "make things better" and negotiate improvments under ADA.

buffettgirl
04-25-2012, 07:54 AM
It always surprises me that these things end up in lawsuits since there are so many other ways to "make things better" and negotiate improvments under ADA.

I'm not so sure about that. The Diabetes Community has been trying for years to get Disney to provide carb counts (many other states now have to provide full nutritional information in their restaurants ) and nothing is working. I can easily see it going to a lawsuit at some point. Sometimes a large company like Disney simply won't act until it has to.

On the other hand a few years ago a group of us actually managed to raise such a ruckus that Disney Television actually re-shot one of their episodes of Hannah Montana which dealt with diabetes in a horrifyingly stereotypical way. So it happens when people make noise. But not often.

ttintagel
04-25-2012, 09:20 AM
I'm not so sure about that. The Diabetes Community has been trying for years to get Disney to provide carb counts (many other states now have to provide full nutritional information in their restaurants ) and nothing is working. I can easily see it going to a lawsuit at some point. Sometimes a large company like Disney simply won't act until it has to.

On the other hand a few years ago a group of us actually managed to raise such a ruckus that Disney Television actually re-shot one of their episodes of Hannah Montana which dealt with diabetes in a horrifyingly stereotypical way. So it happens when people make noise. But not often.

Exactly. In a society as capitalist and profit-driven as ours (and I'm not saying that's a bad thing), most of the time hitting the wallet is the only way to get changes made. A company that's making a lot of money doing things the way they've always done doesn't have a lot of motivation for making changes unless there's a risk of losing money by not making them.

I Love Pluto
04-26-2012, 09:11 AM
I actually feel sympathy toward Disney, or any other venue - when they are sued by someone for "lack" of accommodations.

Realize - There are some of us on this thread with the SAME diagnosis of an issue - YET - we don't NEED the SAME accommodations. How is Disney to KNOW what a person REALLY needs?????

I, too, have had issues with CMs not realizing what I need. BUT - the next person might be totally satisfied.

I agree that those who "MUST hit the pocketbook" in lawsuits are not handling things the way I do. But - perhaps they are not as frustrated as I am when I TRY to explain what I need, only to be explaining to a selective-hearing CM. Also - to be promised that I will be accommodated - then I am not. Sometimes I think talking to the sidewalk would be easier! :goodvibes

bookwormde
04-27-2012, 08:09 PM
Have you filed a formal complaint with the florida office for federal DOJ OCR since the new law went into effect in 2009?


I'm not so sure about that. The Diabetes Community has been trying for years to get Disney to provide carb counts (many other states now have to provide full nutritional information in their restaurants ) and nothing is working. I can easily see it going to a lawsuit at some point. Sometimes a large company like Disney simply won't act until it has to.

On the other hand a few years ago a group of us actually managed to raise such a ruckus that Disney Television actually re-shot one of their episodes of Hannah Montana which dealt with diabetes in a horrifyingly stereotypical way. So it happens when people make noise. But not often.

A Mickeyfan
04-29-2012, 12:12 AM
I actually feel sympathy toward Disney, or any other venue - when they are sued by someone for "lack" of accommodations.

Realize - There are some of us on this thread with the SAME diagnosis of an issue - YET - we don't NEED the SAME accommodations. How is Disney to KNOW what a person REALLY needs?????

I, too, have had issues with CMs not realizing what I need. BUT - the next person might be totally satisfied.

I agree that those who "MUST hit the pocketbook" in lawsuits are not handling things the way I do. But - perhaps they are not as frustrated as I am when I TRY to explain what I need, only to be explaining to a selective-hearing CM. Also - to be promised that I will be accommodated - then I am not. Sometimes I think talking to the sidewalk would be easier! :goodvibes

I do think in a case like this, it isn't a matter of just one person but the majority. I can speak for those with visual impairments, and I am no where near blind and needing the braille or audio's, but Disney doesn't do enough at all for those with visual impairments what so ever! :worried:

Just the simple fact that I must fight with CM's to be able to use the alt entrance because I have a hard time "seeing" my way through the HM's standard line tells me something. :headache: (and I have the GAC stating alt entrance) Not to mention no matter what I do, I must endure that dark holding room :worried: I am not alone in this, there are many others like me, yet Disney continues to funnel us there because the wheelchairs can now enter there... does that make sense? :confused3

I for one am happy that this has taken place. While I have no part of it, so the money isn't for me, the benefits that will come out of it is. It is sad that Disney had to be hit in the pockets to make these changes.. funny how limited their "vision" is. They do need some changes.. and I am glad they will take place now. Image going out to eat and not being able to read a menu? that is what not having a braille menu meant for some with visual impairments.. but unless you have that impairment, you aren't going to stop and think about that....

A Mickeyfan
04-29-2012, 12:29 AM
I am reading parts of the suit.. and it states that they will have servers read the menu's when and where the braille will not be available. I had stated that was the way it was supposed to have been before, but I guess not many really paid any mind to that here. I know it was on one of my rampages against the HM and how they treat the visually impaired. I brought it up when speaking about the lighting in the HM and if they weren't going to let me skip the dark room, they technically should have someone guide me through there as well as down the dimly lit hall, but many here stated no they did not.. I am afraid that Disney does have to do that, it is the same as the menu. If they cannot provide adequate lighting, then they must provide assistance... and they do neither at that attraction :worried:

A Mickeyfan
04-29-2012, 12:47 AM
One of the chief complaints by the visually impaired guests was that they could not use parade viewing areas reserved for guests with other physical impairments.

:cool1::banana::woohoo: I am thrilled they are addressing this!! I had tried several times to get standing room in the reserved viewing area and was told it was for wheelchair guests. I tried explaining I have a problem in the dark (during the day parade I don't care where I am). They said it didn't matter. Here I am thinking, I have a visual problem and I cannot stand there, but there are tons of people standing there behind their wheelchairs with their family members who more than likely all can see fine (as they are there due to wheelchair), yet me, I have a visual problem and I am told no :confused3 and the same with the Candlelight Processional. They said they had no seating for visual impairment, even after showing my GAC. I had to point out that is stated front row(s) seating when available for theater and shows. :confused3 they sat me in the hearing impaired section.

gilesmt
04-30-2012, 06:03 PM
I don't think anyone without a visual impairment would get this. But I am thrilled! It has been a long time coming, and it is not just a Disney problem. Just two years ago, a federal agency who deals with disabilities was sued by blind individuals, for not accommodating them, social security who I paid into for more than 40 years finally has to call me up and read me letters when they send me things within 3 days of mailing them to me. I have said for years, blind individuals are the least accommodated, just last year I was told by a driver who advertised on this board that he would not drive us to WDW with service animals, just last year WDW refused to allow me to sit up front even with my GAC pass, and less than two years ago DL hotel refused to give me orientation of my hotel room, when requested, I had to get a supervisor to get this service. Most things I just over look, but it wears a person down when the only accommodation that the ADA has giving blind persons in 20 years is that when I as a blind person drives through a drive through ATM at a bank, it is in second grade Braille for me to do my banking.

I want to live independent and fight daily to do that since not one business or state agency will send me mail in alternative format, only social security does and they only started late last year to do so. At least once a week I am told my dog can not accompany me somewhere even in a harness. Every time, and I mean every time I go to Walmart I am stopped at the door by the greeter and asked if my dog is a service dog, even by the same person and I have lived here 21 years and go to Walmart every week at least once, but I always have to stop and answer that question. And it infuriates me even more when all the senior citizens have there little chaweenie dogs and are stopped and they all say yes it is a service dog, what is the point when all you have to do is say yes even if you are lying.

So am I happy, yes beyond happy but I will have to see the results and I hope thousand more law suits are filed until blind individuals get the rights the deserve in all businesses. Disney could have settled this a long time ago, if they wanted to and saved a lot of money.

buffettgirl
04-30-2012, 07:06 PM
Thank you for your perspective. As the mother of a child who is losing his vision, all the fighting you've done has been worth it. If my child will be able to live just a tiny bit more independently when he's older (and if he wants to go to disney) then I'm glad he'll be able to do those things.

Schmeck
05-01-2012, 08:02 PM
Using a scanner and kurzweil can be a great aid for those that need assistance reading printed information at home, school or at work. I don't know of a portable system though.

Talking Hands
05-01-2012, 08:50 PM
One of the chief complaints by the visually impaired guests was that they could not use parade viewing areas reserved for guests with other physical impairments.

:cool1::banana::woohoo: I am thrilled they are addressing this!! I had tried several times to get standing room in the reserved viewing area and was told it was for wheelchair guests. I tried explaining I have a problem in the dark (during the day parade I don't care where I am). They said it didn't matter. Here I am thinking, I have a visual problem and I cannot stand there, but there are tons of people standing there behind their wheelchairs with their family members who more than likely all can see fine (as they are there due to wheelchair), yet me, I have a visual problem and I am told no :confused3 and the same with the Candlelight Processional. They said they had no seating for visual impairment, even after showing my GAC. I had to point out that is stated front row(s) seating when available for theater and shows. :confused3 they sat me in the hearing impaired section.
And what was wrong with the section for the deaf and hard of hearing. It is in the front. They normally use that area for both. Honestly there isn't that much of a need to see at Candlelight Processional as there is no drama. The only time I even look at the narrator is if Marlee Matlin is narrating. Otherwise I focus on the sign language interpreter. While I can hear the orchestra music I cannot distinguish the words being sung.

buffettgirl
05-01-2012, 09:01 PM
I think it's indicating that Disney would not allow the guests with visual impairments to use the areas reserved for those with other disabilities. Not that those people with visual impairments found those areas unsuitable. At least, that's how I read it.

I think those with visual impairments WANTED the same upfront seating at a parade - because visual impairment doesn't necessarily mean that the person can't see anything. They could have quite a bit of usable vision left but they needed to be able to use that area.

clanmcculloch
05-02-2012, 08:52 AM
One of the chief complaints by the visually impaired guests was that they could not use parade viewing areas reserved for guests with other physical impairments.

:cool1::banana::woohoo: I am thrilled they are addressing this!! I had tried several times to get standing room in the reserved viewing area and was told it was for wheelchair guests. I tried explaining I have a problem in the dark (during the day parade I don't care where I am). They said it didn't matter. Here I am thinking, I have a visual problem and I cannot stand there, but there are tons of people standing there behind their wheelchairs with their family members who more than likely all can see fine (as they are there due to wheelchair), yet me, I have a visual problem and I am told no :confused3 and the same with the Candlelight Processional. They said they had no seating for visual impairment, even after showing my GAC. I had to point out that is stated front row(s) seating when available for theater and shows. :confused3 they sat me in the hearing impaired section.

I'm trying to think of a way to ask my questions without coming across as arguementative because I'm honestly just trying to understand. Please take my questions as genuinely trying to understand and be supportive because that honestly is where I'm coming from.

Is there a reason why you can't watch the parades from anywhere else along the route? Anybody can stake out a spot along a curb on a bench along the route. Is something wrong with these areas? Is there a reason why you can't see as well from other areas along the parade routes?

As for the Candlelight Prcessional, is your chief complaint that there isn't an area specifically called visual impairment seating? I definitely understand your complaint that you had to argue about getting accomodated. Those types of arguements do get old (the whole point of the GAC is so that we can GET needed accomodatios and I think all of us who use them get frustrated when we have to argue to get what we need). I just don't understand why the hearing impaired section didn't meet the accomodation. Is this area not close enough (I honestly don't know where the area is; I'm just making the assumption that it's close to the front)? I would think that it would need to be close in order for hearing impaired people to be able to clearly see the signers. Does that not meet your needs? What do you need that wasn't met by that section?

Talking Hands
05-02-2012, 02:44 PM
As for the Candlelight Prcessional, is your chief complaint that there isn't an area specifically called visual impairment seating? I definitely understand your complaint that you had to argue about getting accomodated. Those types of arguements do get old (the whole point of the GAC is so that we can GET needed accomodatios and I think all of us who use them get frustrated when we have to argue to get what we need). I just don't understand why the hearing impaired section didn't meet the accomodation. Is this area not close enough (I honestly don't know where the area is; I'm just making the assumption that it's close to the front)? I would think that it would need to be close in order for hearing impaired people to be able to clearly see the signers. Does that not meet your needs? What do you need that wasn't met by that section?

The area for the deaf and hard of hearing is in the right hand section as you face the stage and is from the 3rd row of the front section back. They tend not to seat people in the first 2 rows as you are going to see the wall of the stage unless you have your head back looking over the top of the wall. Also by not seating people there, there isn't people walking in front of the interpreter to leave.

ttintagel
05-02-2012, 03:36 PM
Is there a reason why you can't watch the parades from anywhere else along the route? Anybody can stake out a spot along a curb on a bench along the route. Is something wrong with these areas? Is there a reason why you can't see as well from other areas along the parade routes?

High-visibilty non-reserved spots along the route are first-come, first serve for everyone. Now, if a person with normal vision doesn't happen to be able to get a high-visibility spot, it's no big deal. He can find one further away and still see the parade. A visually impaired person doesn't have that option.

Also, depending on the impairment, a visually-impaired person might have difficulty even scoping out a suitable non-reserved spot.

doris1976
05-02-2012, 03:38 PM
i don't usually post on this forum, but this has my dander up - the lawyers get $1.55 million dollars?

+5

clanmcculloch
05-02-2012, 05:46 PM
High-visibilty non-reserved spots along the route are first-come, first serve for everyone. Now, if a person with normal vision doesn't happen to be able to get a high-visibility spot, it's no big deal. He can find one further away and still see the parade. A visually impaired person doesn't have that option.

Also, depending on the impairment, a visually-impaired person might have difficulty even scoping out a suitable non-reserved spot.

Which spots are high-visibility? Isn't front row pretty much anywhere on the parade routes similar? I guess I'm not understanding how somebody who has a child too short to see over people has more options for viewing locations than somebody with impared vision. These families don't have other options either. They either get there early to stake out a spot or they don't watch (we're in the don't watch group because my autistic daughter can't cope with the wait; it is what it is). I'm honestly not trying to arguementative. I just don't understand how the accessible are offers better visibility than spots say along main street or liberty square.

Earstou
05-02-2012, 06:30 PM
I would think visually-impaired guests might have difficulty on the regular parade route due to jostling from fellow guests.
I'm not visually-impaired, I am balance-impaired, and I avoid big crowds at Disney due to the pushing and shoving that usually occurs. I could see this being a big problem for the visually-impaired, too.

ttintagel
05-02-2012, 11:41 PM
Which spots are high-visibility? Isn't front row pretty much anywhere on the parade routes similar? I guess I'm not understanding how somebody who has a child too short to see over people has more options for viewing locations than somebody with impared vision. These families don't have other options either. They either get there early to stake out a spot or they don't watch (we're in the don't watch group because my autistic daughter can't cope with the wait; it is what it is). I'm honestly not trying to arguementative. I just don't understand how the accessible are offers better visibility than spots say along main street or liberty square.

So you'd get rid of the wheelchair spaces, too? After all, the poor, deprived, able-bodied short children can't get any higher than a wheelchair.

SueM in MN
05-03-2012, 07:20 AM
I would think visually-impaired guests might have difficulty on the regular parade route due to jostling from fellow guests.
I'm not visually-impaired, I am balance-impaired, and I avoid big crowds at Disney due to the pushing and shoving that usually occurs. I could see this being a big problem for the visually-impaired, too.
I think this is an important point. At MK, the parade areas have curbs. Being parked along the curb with a wheelchair can be kind of scary - it would be easy to fall off the curb, so I can see that would be a concern for guests with other disabilities too.
That is not the case for some of the day parades, such as at the Studio or AK, which don’t have curbs.

But, I hope that they make a separate viewing area for guests with visual impairments or at least place the standing guests at the end of the current viewing areas in one area, not mixed in with the guests in wheelchairs.

Currently, at most viewing areas, the guests with wheelchairs are lined up along the front of the viewing area and the rest of their party is standing behind them. That allows the guests with wheelchairs to see the parade. If guests who are standing are mixed in, it blocks the view of the guests who are seated.

They will also need to make more handicapped viewing spots for high crowd times - already some of them fill up an hour before the parade and there are 2 or even 3 rows of guests with wheelchairs lined up across the front.

SueM in MN
05-03-2012, 07:36 AM
I don't think anyone without a visual impairment would get this. But I am thrilled! It has been a long time coming, and it is not just a Disney problem. Just two years ago, a federal agency who deals with disabilities was sued by blind individuals, for not accommodating them, social security who I paid into for more than 40 years finally has to call me up and read me letters when they send me things within 3 days of mailing them to me. I have said for years, blind individuals are the least accommodated, just last year I was told by a driver who advertised on this board that he would not drive us to WDW with service animals, just last year WDW refused to allow me to sit up front even with my GAC pass, and less than two years ago DL hotel refused to give me orientation of my hotel room, when requested, I had to get a supervisor to get this service. Most things I just over look, but it wears a person down when the only accommodation that the ADA has giving blind persons in 20 years is that when I as a blind person drives through a drive through ATM at a bank, it is in second grade Braille for me to do my banking.

I want to live independent and fight daily to do that since not one business or state agency will send me mail in alternative format, only social security does and they only started late last year to do so. At least once a week I am told my dog can not accompany me somewhere even in a harness. Every time, and I mean every time I go to Walmart I am stopped at the door by the greeter and asked if my dog is a service dog, even by the same person and I have lived here 21 years and go to Walmart every week at least once, but I always have to stop and answer that question. And it infuriates me even more when all the senior citizens have there little chaweenie dogs and are stopped and they all say yes it is a service dog, what is the point when all you have to do is say yes even if you are lying.

So am I happy, yes beyond happy but I will have to see the results and I hope thousand more law suits are filed until blind individuals get the rights the deserve in all businesses. Disney could have settled this a long time ago, if they wanted to and saved a lot of money.
We are asked every time DD takes her Service Dog into Walmart too. I think they are doing it to be consistent with every person who comes in with a dog.
But, it gets to be a bit much.
Girl with wheelchair holding leash of black dog with bright red jacket with 2 inch high letters that say "Service Dog” should tell you something without asking.
Using a scanner and kurzweil can be a great aid for those that need assistance reading printed information at home, school or at work. I don't know of a portable system though.
There are iPhone apps for magnification, but I am not sure about scanning and reading.
Mobile Magic park app includes GPS, so I wonder if it could be enabled in some way for way finding - like reading out what is close by and how far to specific attractions.
I know from other work I do that it is easier to make things work consistently for iPhones than Android because there are so many “flavors” of Android. But, there are probably Android versions of magnification and readers.

buffettgirl
05-03-2012, 08:10 AM
I'm just a tiny bit shocked that we're debating the need for accommodations for any group of disabled guests. This is a win for everyone.

Disneykidsdad
05-03-2012, 08:27 AM
A thread in another forum (http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2881090) had discussed a lawsuit that was filed against Disney, alleging that it had failed to accommodate visitors with disabilities. Late yesterday, the plaintiffs and Disney announced that they had reached a settlement (which still must be approved by the court).

Some of the original claims have been narrowed or dropped altogether, but Disney would make various practice/policy changes. In addition, the named plaintiffs would get $15,000 each, and their attorneys would get fees/costs of up $1.55 million.

The document itself is 95 pages (http://ia600502.us.archive.org/19/items/gov.uscourts.cacd.479242/gov.uscourts.cacd.479242.196.1.pdf), but it includes the following summary of its key terms:

Under the Settlement Agreement Disney has agreed to enhance the services it currently offers to guests with visual impairments at the Disney Parks and on websites owned or operated by Disney. Those changes include: updating its guidelines regarding the manner in which costumed Disney characters interact with guests accompanied by service animals; providing certain Braille schedules, menus and maps; providing additional audio description and information about facilities and attractions on the handheld device already available to guests with visual disabilities; modifying policies and practices applicable to guests accompanied by service animals, including designating additional relief areas for service animals and modifying the options available to guests accompanied by service animals when service animals cannot ride on certain attractions; providing a limited number of free admission passes to be distributed by an agreed-upon charitable organization serving individuals with visual impairments; modifying guidelines regarding the reserved viewing areas for guests with disabilities at live parades; enhancing locker and parking facilities; and enhancing procedures and standards for making websites owned or operated by Disney accessible to users who access those websites using screen reader software utilities.

This part I like. When we go to WDW with our daughter's service dog, it's not always easy to fine the relief area. Alot of CM's don't know where they are. It has taken us up to 1/2 hour to be taken to one. It would also be nice to be able to put the dog in a crate once in a while so my daughter, wife and I could ride a ride together. Just a couple would be great.

clanmcculloch
05-03-2012, 08:42 AM
So you'd get rid of the wheelchair spaces, too? After all, the poor, deprived, able-bodied short children can't get any higher than a wheelchair.

Apples and oranges. People with vision issues have difficulty seeing. I was just asking how one area is better than another and trying to understand that need. A person who's in a wheelchair has completely different set of needs. Accomodations are based on a need so I'm just trying to understand what need is being met by standing in the wheelchair accessible area as opposed to standing on a curb elsewhere along a parade route. What about standing elsewhere puts a person with vision issues in a position to not be able to take in a parade more-so than people with typical vision and how does standing in the wheelchair accessible area correct that? Isn't that the whole point of accomodations? To give a person who has a disability of some kind EQUAL access.

I'm just a tiny bit shocked that we're debating the need for accommodations for any group of disabled guests. This is a win for everyone.

I think you're missing my point. I'm not questioning if a particular group should be accomodated or not. Absolutely any disabiltiy should be accomodated so that they have equal access. I'm questioning if an accomodation needs to be labelled as for a specific group (a pp seemed to think that being seated in a section labeled for a different disability was unacceptable even though it sounds as though this accomodation likely DID fit that person's need; isn't it about the need after all?). I'm questioning if we as guests with disability should be demanding whatever accomodations that we want even if when we think about it we already have the same access as everybody else. Both of these things make it more difficult for EVERYBODY with any kind of disability because then CMs start questioning if they should bother and they start getting grumpy with us because they've been snapped at and yelled at by other guests with disabilities.

In the case of the parade that I was asking about, if there is a difference in ability to see in the accessible area then absolutely a person with vision issues should be allowed to be there. If the difference is just that the person doesn't want to wait to scope out a spot like hundreds of families without a disability then I don't understand as the access is already equal. Isn't that the point of accomodations? To make access equal?

utterrandomness
05-03-2012, 10:42 AM
Apples and oranges. People with vision issues have difficulty seeing. I was just asking how one area is better than another and trying to understand that need. A person who's in a wheelchair has completely different set of needs. Accomodations are based on a need so I'm just trying to understand what need is being met by standing in the wheelchair accessible area as opposed to standing on a curb elsewhere along a parade route. What about standing elsewhere puts a person with vision issues in a position to not be able to take in a parade more-so than people with typical vision and how does standing in the wheelchair accessible area correct that? Isn't that the whole point of accomodations? To give a person who has a disability of some kind EQUAL access.



I think you're missing my point. I'm not questioning if a particular group should be accomodated or not. Absolutely any disabiltiy should be accomodated so that they have equal access. I'm questioning if an accomodation needs to be labelled as for a specific group (a pp seemed to think that being seated in a section labeled for a different disability was unacceptable even though it sounds as though this accomodation likely DID fit that person's need; isn't it about the need after all?). I'm questioning if we as guests with disability should be demanding whatever accomodations that we want even if when we think about it we already have the same access as everybody else. Both of these things make it more difficult for EVERYBODY with any kind of disability because then CMs start questioning if they should bother and they start getting grumpy with us because they've been snapped at and yelled at by other guests with disabilities.

In the case of the parade that I was asking about, if there is a difference in ability to see in the accessible area then absolutely a person with vision issues should be allowed to be there. If the difference is just that the person doesn't want to wait to scope out a spot like hundreds of families without a disability then I don't understand as the access is already equal. Isn't that the point of accomodations? To make access equal?

My problem with your comment is that you do not know why people are doing what they're doing. Who are you to judge what people do and do not need? Sometimes people's needs aren't immediately obvious, and those of us in that situation get really tired of dealing with people that can't understand that their perception might not encompass the reality of the situation.

clanmcculloch
05-03-2012, 11:21 AM
My problem with your comment is that you do not know why people are doing what they're doing. Who are you to judge what people do and do not need? Sometimes people's needs aren't immediately obvious, and those of us in that situation get really tired of dealing with people that can't understand that their perception might not encompass the reality of the situation.

You seem to be missing what I'm asking. Why does the standard viewing not meet your need (the you in your is whomever needs the accomodation)? Is there a reason people won't answer this? Maybe this is why these individuals encoutering difficulty with CMs. It's important to be able to explain why the regular viewing won't work for you. I'm not saying that people don't have a need but I am saying that you've got to be able to explain why the regular way of doing whatever you need accomodation for does not work for you. This is a message board and we're discussing how WDW was not meeting needs of a particular disability. A few people pointed out a specific situation in which they felt their needs weren't met because they weren't given exactly what they asked for. Well, can they please explain why they need it as opposed to the regular viewing area? Did they try doing that with the CMs at the accessible viewing area? If a person's GAC says front row seating, how is the accessible seating meeting that need when there's front row seating all along the route available to everybody? There is no "front row" area for a parade so there's no front row accomodation. Accessible seating is not front row. If the GAC isn't sufficient then they DO need to explain to the CM.

buffettgirl
05-03-2012, 11:39 AM
I was going to wait for someone else to answer, but I'll jump in and speak from the spot that I find myself in now with my son and the eventual outcome of his vision loss.

so for him right now he has trouble in low lighting situations - he still can see reasonably well, midrange, but not at a distance and not up close(which isn't really relevant unless he's trying to read a menu) but mostly he gets very disoriented when the lighting gets low. Should we be simply sitting on a curb (and you all know how pushing and shoving it gets even when you stake out your spot) he gets nervous because even if we step back a few spots to let other kids sit he doesn't know where we are once those lights go down. I can see him, but he can't see us. So in this situation, having a controlled area to sit (like the roped off area) would do a lot to make him able to watch the parade. It's not that he can't see the parade while sitting on the curb, but it's that the darkness around him and the fact that he can't see us is the bigger issue. Picture sitting in a dark space and then not being able to figure out the people around you - is the guy next to you your dh or not? (and not that at this point I think we even need to be accommodated yet because we can make it work right now, but in a few years we certainly are going to)

Now, as for the seating at the Candelight Processional. I didn't read the OPs statement the way you're all reading it. I read it as she was told there was no "vision" section yet eventually she was led to the "hearing" section (not the "section for all people with disabilities) and was just speaking in amazement that the CM didn't seem to think that there was a need for her to sit there. I'm not sure since she hasn't been back, but that's how I read her statement. Not that she didn't want to sit in the "hearing impaired" section and not that she felt that there needed to be a separate "vision impaired" section, but that the CM didn't immediately direct her to the appropriate section. Also, I have n ever been to the CP, but someone mentioned in another thread (or maybe it was PM to me during a discussion of vision issues) that sometimes the front row - or the assigned seats for visual impairment - are not the most appropriate seats. For instance, my son has bilateral peripheral vision loss, on the upper corners of his eyes. So if he were to sit low and try to look up that will be right where his vision is missing. So this other poster explained that it's ok to ask for a different location if the 'front' just doesn't work (and after she told me this it was like ahha! that's so true, it wouldn't work for my child).

so...unless I'm totally misreading the post about the CP (which is what I think started the discussion) I think it was simply that there was no assigned seating for this OP and she was questioning why.

but, I can only speak from the perspective that I have at this moment, knowing what my son is dealing with visually and being able to see why someone might need something slightly different - or why would someone want to be in the wheelchair area etc.

Dismom55
05-03-2012, 11:56 AM
I don't know if it will ever be possible for Disney to accomodate all disabilities, I have had several strokes that have left me unable to stand for long periods of time, standing in long lines is downright painful, but I manage while at Disney, standing to watch the parades not really possible, does that mean Disney should provide a place for me to sit? Then in addition for me, the first stroke left me with less than stellar vision, so if I am not in front forget it, but I can not get up if I were to sit on the curb and even if I did so many would stand in front of me, but it is impossible for Disney to accomodate me and I have long gotten over the fact that I do not really get to enjoy most parades. My dear MIL was legally blind, so I do have a great perspective on vision limitations as I would read menus, labels, mail whatever I could to her to help her out. I do feel we got great service from all restaurants in 09, we let them know in advance that my mother and I were diabetic and the chief came out and told us what to stay away from and what was best to order and in one case they even had to send away to get a sugar free desert.

So yes Disney should do what they can to assist those with medical issues, disabilities, whatever issues that prevent from taking full enjoyment, but realistically how could they prepare for all the little things we have going on. But I do agree they should try to be more proactive on the major issues.

gilesmt
05-03-2012, 12:06 PM
I with a visual impairment can try to answer some of the questions.

Does anywhere on the parade route work. No not always. First, you do have the jostling, which is very difficult for someone with a visual impairment.

Second, and I'm sure you will say that happens to everyone, I have staked out a spot, got up front and 10 minutes before the parade a group of kids, sit down in front of me, not to bad, but then they start moving out into the rode, or fighting and mom behind me keeps having to push her way into me to stop the kids, now I am behind her when another regroup of kids come up and push themselves in front of me, and it starts all over again until I am third behind, now if you are not visually impaired this may work, but I am visually impaired and now I can't see anything so why stay and watch. One reason I have not been to a parade in probably 10 years.

Third, I have a service dog, I will say that most kids are very good in the park with the service dog, and many of them tell mom and dad they can not pet. That works great when walking, but when in a parade route, the kids are board sitting waiting for 30 or more minutes and this cute puppy is just sitting there. So here comes the can I pet, can I pet, can I pet, or the don't ask just do it. Also, you have the popcorn and candy and candy apples and ice cream all right down at the dogs level, it is a constant struggle, to keep my balance, watch the dog and make sure the kids who are just being kids are behaving.

Fourth, I have to worry about people stepping or wheeling over my dogs paws. Even by accident, this is a real concern to me, what would my life be like if she broke her foot. Also, have to worry about her stepping on someone else, how awful would it be if she jumped and stepped on a two year olds foot in sandals and her paws scratched, even if just by accident.

Until now Disney's policy would be to sit me where w/c's go. Well that does not always work for a visually impaired person. I have not been to bugs life or muppets in years since they routinely sit me in the middle row, when I ask for front row, they give the same excuse, this is where all GAC accommodations go, now I am speaking more about DL and DCA since I have been there more. When seated in fantastic, at DL with w/c this is not front row, and again, for me to see anything, I need to be up front, but people in w/c believe they need to be up front also( and I am not making any argument as to this point) so when they see a person who is standing they just push and push, until the person standing moves back, not everyone, and I understand there point, if I can stand than I should be behind them, so my disability takes a back seat to there disability.

Someone asked the question, what difference does it make if you can't see. To me a lot. First, I want my personal space, I'm sure a lot of people do, but to me who can not see, I need my personal space to feel at ease and comfortable, not to be pushed off balance. Second I need space for my dog, who needs a little personal space to be able to do her job. Third, I can see, but not like you or others, fantastic, woc and a few other shows I think look like laser light shows to me, maybe not what Disney wanted but enjoyable to me. I may personally never wish to watch a parade(except maybe the electrically light parade) but my children did, and my granddaughter does now, so if I must, I just want a little space t allow me and my dog safety while watching.

Sue, Walmart frustrates me because if you read the law, it states they are allowed to ask questions if not apparent!!! My dog is in harness, it has been with me every week, my first dog 7 years, this dog 6 months. I believe WA marts policy of asking every person with a dog is harassment and would love to see someone sue them over it. Unless they are going to stop allowing the companion dogs, therapy dogs and pets into the store, than they should not be asking at all. This is against ADA, because it states you can not point out an harass persons with disabilities, if there is a question, like a dog for autism or PTSD because I am told some of them do not wear vest because it would inerfer with the work, but the law states that no questions should be asked it it is clear to the observer that the dog is a service dog. WA marts policy clearly, discriminates against me, since my dog is clearly in a harness, with the name of the school clearly visible on the harness and I clearly frequent that establishment enough for the greeter to know me and my dog by name, but I am still asked every time. As a disabled I feel like Walmart is announcing over the loud speaker, blind person with dog in store. :(

clanmcculloch
05-03-2012, 12:38 PM
I was going to wait for someone else to answer, but I'll jump in and speak from the spot that I find myself in now with my son and the eventual outcome of his vision loss.

so for him right now he has trouble in low lighting situations - he still can see reasonably well, midrange, but not at a distance and not up close(which isn't really relevant unless he's trying to read a menu) but mostly he gets very disoriented when the lighting gets low. Should we be simply sitting on a curb (and you all know how pushing and shoving it gets even when you stake out your spot) he gets nervous because even if we step back a few spots to let other kids sit he doesn't know where we are once those lights go down. I can see him, but he can't see us. So in this situation, having a controlled area to sit (like the roped off area) would do a lot to make him able to watch the parade. It's not that he can't see the parade while sitting on the curb, but it's that the darkness around him and the fact that he can't see us is the bigger issue. Picture sitting in a dark space and then not being able to figure out the people around you - is the guy next to you your dh or not? (and not that at this point I think we even need to be accommodated yet because we can make it work right now, but in a few years we certainly are going to)

Now, as for the seating at the Candelight Processional. I didn't read the OPs statement the way you're all reading it. I read it as she was told there was no "vision" section yet eventually she was led to the "hearing" section (not the "section for all people with disabilities) and was just speaking in amazement that the CM didn't seem to think that there was a need for her to sit there. I'm not sure since she hasn't been back, but that's how I read her statement. Not that she didn't want to sit in the "hearing impaired" section and not that she felt that there needed to be a separate "vision impaired" section, but that the CM didn't immediately direct her to the appropriate section. Also, I have n ever been to the CP, but someone mentioned in another thread (or maybe it was PM to me during a discussion of vision issues) that sometimes the front row - or the assigned seats for visual impairment - are not the most appropriate seats. For instance, my son has bilateral peripheral vision loss, on the upper corners of his eyes. So if he were to sit low and try to look up that will be right where his vision is missing. So this other poster explained that it's ok to ask for a different location if the 'front' just doesn't work (and after she told me this it was like ahha! that's so true, it wouldn't work for my child).

so...unless I'm totally misreading the post about the CP (which is what I think started the discussion) I think it was simply that there was no assigned seating for this OP and she was questioning why.

but, I can only speak from the perspective that I have at this moment, knowing what my son is dealing with visually and being able to see why someone might need something slightly different - or why would someone want to be in the wheelchair area etc.

Thank you! This is the kind of thing I was asking about. I can see how in your situation with your son, it could be dangerous to sit on the curb with him. The potential for being separated and him not finding you is a real risk. That being said, you are very well spoken and I'm just not imagining you walking up to a CM demanding to be seated in a specific area. I would imagine you would explain that the purpose of your GAC is so that you can be protected from this kind of jockying and being separated due to his inability to find you if you have people squeeze between you with his particular type of vision difficulty. That doesn't mean that EVERY person who has a GAC indicating vision issues needs this. Clearly you can explain your needed accomodation to CMs and should be helped by them. If they refuse then that's horrible. I'm not even trying to say that your situation is the only one that would require an accomodation for parades because obviously there are other situations as well, many I'm sure that I can't think of myself. I'm just saying that some people are coming across as though a blanket disability of vision impairment should automatically mean seating in the accessible area. As the mother of an autistic child, I know that people with the same diagnosis could very easily have very different needs and I DO expect to have to explain my family's need.

Maybe I did misinterpret that person's situation at CP. I think I've read that particular posted making demands in the past that make me shake my head. I could be reading more into the situation than was intended. I HAD read it as though the person was upset that they weren't given an area specifically for vision impairment. If that's not the intention then I appologize for taking up time in this thread for this part of my questions.

I with a visual impairment can try to answer some of the questions.

Does anywhere on the parade route work. No not always. First, you do have the jostling, which is very difficult for someone with a visual impairment.

Second, and I'm sure you will say that happens to everyone, I have staked out a spot, got up front and 10 minutes before the parade a group of kids, sit down in front of me, not to bad, but then they start moving out into the rode, or fighting and mom behind me keeps having to push her way into me to stop the kids, now I am behind her when another regroup of kids come up and push themselves in front of me, and it starts all over again until I am third behind, now if you are not visually impaired this may work, but I am visually impaired and now I can't see anything so why stay and watch. One reason I have not been to a parade in probably 10 years.

Third, I have a service dog, I will say that most kids are very good in the park with the service dog, and many of them tell mom and dad they can not pet. That works great when walking, but when in a parade route, the kids are board sitting waiting for 30 or more minutes and this cute puppy is just sitting there. So here comes the can I pet, can I pet, can I pet, or the don't ask just do it. Also, you have the popcorn and candy and candy apples and ice cream all right down at the dogs level, it is a constant struggle, to keep my balance, watch the dog and make sure the kids who are just being kids are behaving.

Fourth, I have to worry about people stepping or wheeling over my dogs paws. Even by accident, this is a real concern to me, what would my life be like if she broke her foot. Also, have to worry about her stepping on someone else, how awful would it be if she jumped and stepped on a two year olds foot in sandals and her paws scratched, even if just by accident.

Until now Disney's policy would be to sit me where w/c's go. Well that does not always work for a visually impaired person. I have not been to bugs life or muppets in years since they routinely sit me in the middle row, when I ask for front row, they give the same excuse, this is where all GAC accommodations go, now I am speaking more about DL and DCA since I have been there more. When seated in fantastic, at DL with w/c this is not front row, and again, for me to see anything, I need to be up front, but people in w/c believe they need to be up front also( and I am not making any argument as to this point) so when they see a person who is standing they just push and push, until the person standing moves back, not everyone, and I understand there point, if I can stand than I should be behind them, so my disability takes a back seat to there disability.

Someone asked the question, what difference does it make if you can't see. To me a lot. First, I want my personal space, I'm sure a lot of people do, but to me who can not see, I need my personal space to feel at ease and comfortable, not to be pushed off balance. Second I need space for my dog, who needs a little personal space to be able to do her job. Third, I can see, but not like you or others, fantastic, woc and a few other shows I think look like laser light shows to me, maybe not what Disney wanted but enjoyable to me. I may personally never wish to watch a parade(except maybe the electrically light parade) but my children did, and my granddaughter does now, so if I must, I just want a little space t allow me and my dog safety while watching.

Sue, Walmart frustrates me because if you read the law, it states they are allowed to ask questions if not apparent!!! My dog is in harness, it has been with me every week, my first dog 7 years, this dog 6 months. I believe WA marts policy of asking every person with a dog is harassment and would love to see someone sue them over it. Unless they are going to stop allowing the companion dogs, therapy dogs and pets into the store, than they should not be asking at all. This is against ADA, because it states you can not point out an harass persons with disabilities, if there is a question, like a dog for autism or PTSD because I am told some of them do not wear vest because it would inerfer with the work, but the law states that no questions should be asked it it is clear to the observer that the dog is a service dog. WA marts policy clearly, discriminates against me, since my dog is clearly in a harness, with the name of the school clearly visible on the harness and I clearly frequent that establishment enough for the greeter to know me and my dog by name, but I am still asked every time. As a disabled I feel like Walmart is announcing over the loud speaker, blind person with dog in store. :(

OMG, with a service dog I can't imagine sitting by the curb. That would I imagine be very dangerous for the dog.

I do think it's wrong when you're told that the accomodation is black and white you have to sit in a specific area when we all know that the same diagnosis will potentially mean different accomodation requirements for different people. I'm sorry to hear that you have to deal with this. Hopefully this is some of what will be addressed with the changes that will hopefully come about as a result of this lawsuit. You should be able to state what difficulty you have and be accomodated rather than being told "you have to sit in area xyz because that's what we have for all blanket disabilities". That's just wrong.

I do want to mention that issues with balance and needing to not be in crowded areas in order to avoid being bumped should be discussed with Guest Relations. This could potentially require a different accomodation than one needed for visual impairment. From the CMs' perspectives, if they see a GAC indicating visual impairment, they're typically going to thing that the only thing you need help with (whether this is right or wrong) is being close up to shows/screen and that you might need to avoid hazzards. I do see how a person with extremely limitted vision could easily be thrown off balance when bumped but I don't know if CMs will consider this when looking at accomodating vision impairment. I guess you know from your own experience if whatever accomodation you're given for the service dog or if whatever accomodation you're given for your vision issues is enough or not. Just something to think about though.

ETA: I hope I'm not the person who asked what difference it makes if you can't see. I totally get that you want to experience WDW with your family and that you can still enjoy all the other sensory inputs. If I did ask (I can't remember or maybe something I said was misinterpretted) then I'm sorry.

buffettgirl
05-03-2012, 01:27 PM
Thank you! This is the kind of thing I was asking about. I can see how in your situation with your son, it could be dangerous to sit on the curb with him. The potential for being separated and him not finding you is a real risk. That being said, you are very well spoken and I'm just not imagining you walking up to a CM demanding to be seated in a specific area. I would imagine you would explain that the purpose of your GAC is so that you can be protected from this kind of jockying and being separated due to his inability to find you if you have people squeeze between you with his particular type of vision difficulty. That doesn't mean that EVERY person who has a GAC indicating vision issues needs this. Clearly you can explain your needed accomodation to CMs and should be helped by them. If they refuse then that's horrible. I'm not even trying to say that your situation is the only one that would require an accomodation for parades because obviously there are other situations as well, many I'm sure that I can't think of myself. I'm just saying that some people are coming across as though a blanket disability of vision impairment should automatically mean seating in the accessible area. As the mother of an autistic child, I know that people with the same diagnosis could very easily have very different needs and I DO expect to have to explain my family's need.

Maybe I did misinterpret that person's situation at CP. I think I've read that particular posted making demands in the past that make me shake my head. I could be reading more into the situation than was intended. I HAD read it as though the person was upset that they weren't given an area specifically for vision impairment. If that's not the intention then I appologize for taking up time in this thread for this part of my questions.




it's also possible that was their intention, that they just waved the GAC and expected something without wanting to explain. It's hard really to tell, and I've read it a few times now trying to see what you're seeing (just as I'm sure you have, trying to see what I'm seeing).

Someone else said that they can't accommodate everyone, but yes they can. To a certain extent they must. Yet like you said, not everyone with the same disability needs the same thing (I have tons of friends in the diabetes world who get GAC for their kids - hoping to skip lines, minimize waits, I'm not sure what, and I honestly can't see the need or the reasoning) and so I'm sure there are many who have visual issues who need one thing over another. And yet many people don't have to explain their needs - they just show the card and the CM waves them on to wherever....

Perhaps it's really time that Disney revamps the whole GAC process and makes it less of a one stamp fits all process (which we know doesn't really work), and go more with written instructions for the CM. I'm not sure why they can't electronically type notes onto a card ("this guest needs a choice of viewing spots - not necessarily front row." or "this guest needs to remain in a lit area" or "this guest needs room for her service dog ") but something that gives a little more info, then the card can be printed off GS that then a CM can scan and read what Guest Services intends for the guest. I mean, they can hold a lot of info in a little scan paper card - or a QR reader, etc. A new system would do a few things really: It would allow the guest and GS to go over needs in depth once and would allow the guest not to have to explain needs at every attraction with a CM who might not quite understand, and it would take the CM out of the equation for having to make any determination on what the needs really are and it would also let the CM know that these needs have already been vetted and approved by Guest Services.

The whole stamp thing just lends itself to so many issues open for so much misinterpretation.


(oh and you'll all laugh, or perhaps want to beat the crap out of someone) I have a friend who just posted pictures of her latest vacation - not disney - but in every photo she's got her dog. Another friend asked her if she takes the dog everywhere and she admitted that she simply says the dog is a service dog and so her little poodle thing goes with her in restaurants, stores, etc. And people wonder why people with real needs find it so hard. uggh.

clanmcculloch
05-03-2012, 02:15 PM
They can't accomodate everybody. There are plenty of things we can't do because there are no accomodations. It is what it is and I know it. I'm grateful for what WDW DOES do. Of course some things I don't necessarily agree that there are no reasonable accomodations as I can think of some but the attractions aren't worth the arguement involved in trying to get accomodations. There's plenty of other things we can do and enjoy.

I understand some people don't need to be able to explain their needs and can just show their GAC (sometimes we can) but with the current system having only limitted stamps to try to explain so many different needs, the reality is that sometimes we do need to be able to explain why something won't work and ask for something else. It's just the way it is. CMs aren't mind readers and are limitted in what they have to work with. I agree with you that there should be a better way but it's very complicated and I pity the person who tries to come up with a matrix of all the different possible accomodations (especially when accomodations can change at an attraction based on crowds and time of day). I do also agree with you that even minor tweaks like you mentioned (indicating that requiring a choice of seating is important) could make a difference. But, that also means that for each show they'd have to hold aside special needs seating in just about every part of the theatre which just doesn't seem reasonable. It really is difficult to try to accomodate everybody. Some of the experiences you've described do sound as though they're way too inflexible with vision issues which is something that CAN be correct.

Ugh! I can't stand people like that friend of yours.

gilesmt
05-03-2012, 03:20 PM
You state that they would have to hold special seating for every show, NO, they could put in the pamphlet that the 10 am show is for visual impairment and the 11 am show will have an interpreter, they do have special shows each week that have interpreters, so why not have special shows for individuals with vision problems, with less crowded seating, or more open up front or middle seating. If ever visually impaired person in the park that day who wanted to see a specific show knew that they would be allowed to go and find there seat at the 10 o'clock show before they allowed anyone else in, than they would all show up at the 10 o'clock show, or at least I would. Just like those who are deaf, they know the interpreter will be at the 11 o'clock show So that is the one they go to. After all the visually impaired persons and families are seated, they then open the doors for others to seat around them. Same with the parade, if they have a special seating area for visually impaired in the morning, then they could use the same area for those who are deaf or in w/c in the afternoon. Same with fantastic, the first show could be for w/c and the second show for visual impairments.

Also, I am assuming we are not talking the same quantity as with other disabilities, when at WDW I (hear) hundreds of w/c's or persona with autism, I personally have never run into another guide dog working, I have (hear) other guide dogs in training, I have only once (heard) another blind person walking with a cane. So we are talking probably a much smaller number.

To me with the small number I would think just allowing them to pick the seat before hand would work, or just roping off one very small little section of a parade route that would hold 6 people would work. If I was told that spot was already taken for the 10 parade I would just say fine I'll come back for the 1 parade.

As for the NOT poodle service dog that just :furious: frustrates me. I don't know about other parts of the country but this is why I would have loved ADA to open up the law on service dogs and make rules. HUD started it because apartment seniors were not allowed to keep pets, which is unfair, but it opened up to everyone and there brothers stating that there dog is a service animal so have special rights. I see both sides and have yet to figure out the answer, ADA does not want to say, a service animal has to have this much training, or this much work, or this breed, and who am I to talk when my service animal is free (but it does cost time an energy) and I know some families pay thousands for their service animal. So why should they not be able to train them themselves. But im sorry we do need some regulations, the number of service animals that are pit bulls,is growing in my community by an outrageous amount each year. It really hurts those of us with legitimate service animals, when I got my first service animal 8 years ago, I was stopped and asked maybe once a month about him when entering a business. Now at least once a week I am told I can not enter a business, Walmart won't let me enter without questions that are against ADA, and the bus system and taxi's don't want you on the system even if they have to because it is going to cause the four NOT true service animals on the bus to bark and fight each other when you bring a real service animal on, those poodles, yorkies and Pomeranians start to yelp and fight because they are afraid of the lab who will sit and ignore the other dogs. These are just a few breeds, and there are many more, not saying they are the only breeds. Yes as to the other post this month a pom may detect diabetes, and a yorkie may detect seizures, but most service dog schools would never use these breeds. So I again say, I am frustrated, but I'm torn between make ADA law say this breed or this breed, have to get from school or can train yourself. Or as what should be happening, tran americans to not claim an animal is a service dog just to bring your pet on vacation and not have to pay boarding or pet fees.

buffettgirl
05-03-2012, 03:48 PM
I don't think they could limit the shows to a certain time any more than they could tell all people in W/C or ECVs that they must take a certain bus. That isn't equal access.

And I don't understand why there isn't some service animal registry. Even if you trained the animal yourself there still could be some way to register your animal and receive some sort of certification (vest? tags?) that were official in some way. This is sort of going off topic, but I guess no one has an issue with needing to provide documentation when requesting a disabled parking tag, why should we care about needing to provide documentation on other disabilities for other services? Like having to provide documentation to register your service animal, for instance. I know that in order for my child to qualify for services based on need, at school he has to have a "record or history of such an impairment".

Schmeck
05-03-2012, 04:28 PM
I was going to wait for someone else to answer, but I'll jump in and speak from the spot that I find myself in now with my son and the eventual outcome of his vision loss.

so for him right now he has trouble in low lighting situations - he still can see reasonably well, midrange, but not at a distance and not up close(which isn't really relevant unless he's trying to read a menu) but mostly he gets very disoriented when the lighting gets low. Should we be simply sitting on a curb (and you all know how pushing and shoving it gets even when you stake out your spot) he gets nervous because even if we step back a few spots to let other kids sit he doesn't know where we are once those lights go down. I can see him, but he can't see us. So in this situation, having a controlled area to sit (like the roped off area) would do a lot to make him able to watch the parade. It's not that he can't see the parade while sitting on the curb, but it's that the darkness around him and the fact that he can't see us is the bigger issue. Picture sitting in a dark space and then not being able to figure out the people around you - is the guy next to you your dh or not? (and not that at this point I think we even need to be accommodated yet because we can make it work right now, but in a few years we certainly are going to)

but, I can only speak from the perspective that I have at this moment, knowing what my son is dealing with visually and being able to see why someone might need something slightly different - or why would someone want to be in the wheelchair area etc.

I'm not understanding why one area (roped off, but with others using the area with similar issues) would work over another with your explanation. I think the best choice would be to not leave your son's side? To have some kind of wrist-tether that he would feel connected to the parent sitting beside him? You do not have to move back to let kids sit in front of you if it makes it unsafe and unpleasant for your own child. Also, would you do the same (move away from your son) in the roped off area? Wouldn't he feel that same disconnect?

To be blunt - all I'm seeing from this request for a special area for a certain disability is that people believe that they will be able to show up right before a parade and get a very close viewing spot. That's not going to happen - as someone posted before, the accessible areas fill up over an hour before the parade sometimes. So, if people wait at the curb for over an hour in a crowded roped off area, or wait someplace else for over an hour, what is the accommodation being met?

buffettgirl
05-03-2012, 05:19 PM
I'm not understanding why one area (roped off, but with others using the area with similar issues) would work over another with your explanation. I think the best choice would be to not leave your son's side? To have some kind of wrist-tether that he would feel connected to the parent sitting beside him? You do not have to move back to let kids sit in front of you if it makes it unsafe and unpleasant for your own child. Also, would you do the same (move away from your son) in the roped off area? Wouldn't he feel that same disconnect?

To be blunt - all I'm seeing from this request for a special area for a certain disability is that people believe that they will be able to show up right before a parade and get a very close viewing spot. That's not going to happen - as someone posted before, the accessible areas fill up over an hour before the parade sometimes. So, if people wait at the curb for over an hour in a crowded roped off area, or wait someplace else for over an hour, what is the accommodation being met?

well, first, my son is almost 12. He's a fairly independent pre-teen in most other aspects of life. He won't even let me go on field trips with school :rotfl: so a leash?? not going to happen. Sitting on the curb - we tend to let the kids sit in front and we stand back if possible. I am one of those people who will gladly let a child sit down in front of me. But again, like I said, at the beginning of my post and at the end of my post - these are not things which are a big problem right now and we make them work as is. If I have to sit with him, I do, if his sister is next to him or if I have to periodically lean over and let him know I'm still back there, that's what I do. Same as when we're walking in lines. I was speaking hypothetically as to why someone with low vision might need a spot to view that wouldn't be at the curb. Why there might be some needs that maybe no one has thought about re: low vision.

and you can be as blunt as you like but no where did anyone say they wanted to just show up and get a good spot late (I didn't, and I said we didn't even need an accommodation at this time). Please show me where someone has said that. Otherwise, it's just the same old story of someone thinking that someone else is trying to scam the system, and that's what you're implying.

gilesmt
05-03-2012, 05:47 PM
I don't think they could limit the shows to a certain time any more than they could tell all people in W/C or ECVs that they must take a certain bus. That isn't equal access.

And I don't understand why there isn't some service animal registry. Even if you trained the animal yourself there still could be some way to register your animal and receive some sort of certification (vest? tags?) that were official in some way. This is sort of going off topic, but I guess no one has an issue with needing to provide documentation when requesting a disabled parking tag, why should we care about needing to provide documentation on other disabilities for other services? Like having to provide documentation to register your service animal, for instance. I know that in order for my child to qualify for services based on need, at school he has to have a "record or history of such an impairment".

I'm sorry but it is equal assess and they do just that for the deaf I believe. Disney does have specific number of shows with specific times that are for hearing impaired, that have interpreters there. Sue or someone may have to correct me if I am wrong, since I have never checked into this, but it does have them and when you call they will tell you when they are, if you can not make that show, than my understanding is you have to request a specific show and time and they will do it, but they first try to accommodate all hearing impaired with say one show a week. So if you are going to see Aladin, and you call for an interpreter, they will say, we have an interpreter on Tuesday,Wednesday and Saturday at the 11 am show, if that does not work for you then they try to accommodate but it is not a definitely. This to me is equal access. They try to make it available to those who are there several different days a week. But just like early enterence, if you sleep in late on those days you can't just ask for them to let you stay in the park late at night, they try to accommodate at other times but it is not a guarentee.

I think the problem with ADA and service dog requirements, is that it is an official state agency who has laws and doctors on staff when you ask for a disabled parking placard. And you are asking for it. When it comes to the general public, there are so many opinions and biasis, they feel keep it general, and I use to agree many years ago, but more and more Americans are claiming that there pet dogs are service animals. Also, HUD as a federal agency did great to allow pets in housing, but they confused the issue in saying that they need only a doctors note and they can't be charged pet fees. I'm sorry but mist doctors would not argue with a 90 year old women who wanted her cat without a $500 pet fee and just write her a note, which as I say I am not arguing, I believe elderly and disabled need pets, but when does a doctor say no, is it to the 65 year old, or to the 45 year old. Once the 65 year old gets to keep her pet in the apartment, others want to, which again is great, but then one by one they go out into the community, the animal in the mind of the person is special because they after all have a doctors note stating they need the animal, so can the lay person who drives a bus, or the part time worker at subway, or the greeter at Walmart say no, no they can not legally, all they can ask is if the pet is for a service animal, what work does it do. The execs at Walmart may be able to tell if the answers are true, but they tell the workers to just let go, because they can't train there people who themselves are older to spot the difference. People today can go online and order vest for service dogs, there are web sites that will send you a paper that states your dog is certisfied, that is why as a guide dog user, if asked for documentation, I refuse to give it, since by law it is no allowed to ask for, but anyone with it to me would have an uncertified dog since ADA states you can not be asked for it and they probably just got it off line.

When DOJ opened it up three years ago, I wrote in, I wanted just some simple standards, all service dogs must be altered, to me a dog not altered can not work effectively, what good is a female dog in heat, even if she behaves, others dogs will still be chasing her. I wanted all services dogs to pass basic good citizen award training. I would have liked to see specific breeds, not allowed as service animals, sorry I know it is not there fault it is mankind, but even the best pit bull can turn on a person, I don't think they should be allowed to be used in public. But those are my opinions and DOJ must have had both sides weighing in strongly because basically they left it all pretty much the same way, except a service animal is a dog, it is no longer a monkey or a horse.

To me it is still a mess and they will eventually need to regulate it, which I think will help me, but I still feel bad for those with disabilities that service animals cost a fur tune, like some autism dogs, although the school I went to are now using dogs that are rejected as guide dogs and training them as autism dogs, and they are free, I want to shout what at the schools that charge $10,000 for these dogs, I know it is expensive but come on, insurance won't cover it like w/c's and they are needed medical expense, why charge a family $10,000 for the dogs. The school that trains guide dogs have now taken on the cause and are starting to help families with children with autism. I hear they just placed the 33rd dog.

buffettgirl
05-03-2012, 06:45 PM
Since the original thread was about the settlement and since we've ventured specifically into parades, here is what the settlement says:

a. Within six months after the Effective Date, Disney will
update its relevant Operating Guidelines to provide that disabled parade viewing
areas are available to all guests with disabilities, including guests with visual
impairments, who require preferential viewing as a result of their disability. Disney
will continue to make these viewing areas available on a first-come, first-served
basis.

To me it sounds like Disney was NOT allowing everyone into the disabled viewing areas and now they are. Not just w/c or ecvs. They're admitting that there are other guests with needs who are allowed to be in those areas. (but not limited to guests with visual impairments) Now, sure, people are going to complain. And yes, we all know that someone, somewhere is going to imply that someone deserves the spot more than someone else and someone is going to imply that someone is abusing it. But the benefit for everyone is that Disney is making these spots available to all guests with disabilities.

I really can't see what the argument is here.

Talking Hands
05-03-2012, 11:09 PM
I'm sorry but it is equal assess and they do just that for the deaf I believe. Disney does have specific number of shows with specific times that are for hearing impaired, that have interpreters there. Sue or someone may have to correct me if I am wrong, since I have never checked into this, but it does have them and when you call they will tell you when they are, if you can not make that show, than my understanding is you have to request a specific show and time and they will do it, but they first try to accommodate all hearing impaired with say one show a week. So if you are going to see Aladin, and you call for an interpreter, they will say, we have an interpreter on Tuesday,Wednesday and Saturday at the 11 am show, if that does not work for you then they try to accommodate but it is not a definitely. This to me is equal access. They try to make it available to those who are there several different days a week. But just like early enterence, if you sleep in late on those days you can't just ask for them to let you stay in the park late at night, they try to accommodate at other times but it is not a guarentee.
For the deaf and hard of hearing Disney does have a specific schedule for those who use interpreters. For WDW it is M & Th for MK, T & F for Epcot, W & Sun for Studios and Sat for AK. They will add to the schedule if they are contacted in advance (2 weeks notice min) and they will do other special tours and events when requested in advance. We can't just drop in at the last minute and decide we want to see a show and get an interpreter.

SueM in MN
05-04-2012, 09:39 AM
Until now Disney's policy would be to sit me where w/c's go. Well that does not always work for a visually impaired person. I have not been to bugs life or muppets in years since they routinely sit me in the middle row, when I ask for front row, they give the same excuse, this is where all GAC accommodations go, now I am speaking more about DL and DCA since I have been there more.
I don’t know about DL and DCA since my experience is mostly WDW, but there are many places where guests with wheelchairs are all in the back row.
That does not meet the needs of everyone using a wheelchair. There are situations where someone with a wheelchair also has needs that make them need to sit up front.
For example, we have been to Turtle Talk many times, but the last time was the first my DD really enjoyed it. Why?
Because she was in the front row with no one in front of her.
Spots for guests using wheelchairs are in the ends of the most rows in the theater. She sometimes ends up in one of the back rows and most often ends up near the front, but with a larger adult seated in front of her. Because she is short, she can’t see over them. Because she is in a wheelchair and has seat supports that keep her in one position, she can’t shift at all to see around them.

There are other shows where all the wheelchair seating is in the back. Because my DD also has some visual field deficits and has attention deficit disorder, these back row seats are all that is available. But, she can’t see from those.
WDW has improved with newer theaters, but the older theaters in general, do not do a good job of meeting needs for people who have multiple disabilities/needs.

We have also seen times at WDW where a person with a visual disability was arguing with the CM who tried to direct them to somewhere other than where guests with wheelchairs were being directed to go. This has happened specifically in theaters where guests with wheelchairs are waiting in a separated out area, which leads ONLY to the back row when the door to the theater opens. The arguing has kind of gone like this -
Guest: We have a right to be with the guests in wheelchairs.
CM: When they enter the theater, they will be in the back row. You want the front row.
Guest: I know my rights. You have to let me wait with them.
CM: The area they are waiting in leads only to the back rows. You can’t get to the front from that area.
Guest: I know my rights. You have to let me wait with them. If you won’t, I want to see your manager right now and make a complaint.
CM: You can wait there, but you will not be able to get to the front row.

And, then when the doors open:
Guest: I can't get to the front row. I need the front row.

For shows where it is appropriate, we have often seen guests without mobility devices waiting to enter the theater with us. This has included guests with autism, walking guests with service dogs and guests who have obvious visual disabilities. A few specific situations I can think of where this happened were Laugh Floor and Mickey’s Philharmagic at MK, Turtle Talk and American Adventure at Epcot, Muppets 3D at the Studio and Festival of the Lion King at AK. Those guests entered with us before other guests when the doors opened and they were allowed to choose seats where they wanted.
This was not just recently (so not because of the lawsuit), but we have noticed it over at least the past 10 years.
Sue, Walmart frustrates me because if you read the law, it states they are allowed to ask questions if not apparent!!! My dog is in harness, it has been with me every week, my first dog 7 years, this dog 6 months. I believe WA marts policy of asking every person with a dog is harassment and would love to see someone sue them over it. Unless they are going to stop allowing the companion dogs, therapy dogs and pets into the store, than they should not be asking at all. This is against ADA, because it states you can not point out an harass persons with disabilities, if there is a question, like a dog for autism or PTSD because I am told some of them do not wear vest because it would inerfer with the work, but the law states that no questions should be asked it it is clear to the observer that the dog is a service dog. WA marts policy clearly, discriminates against me, since my dog is clearly in a harness, with the name of the school clearly visible on the harness and I clearly frequent that establishment enough for the greeter to know me and my dog by name, but I am still asked every time. As a disabled I feel like Walmart is announcing over the loud speaker, blind person with dog in store. :(
Yes, I am very aware of the law. That was why I mentioned that it should be very obvious that DD’s dog is her service dog - girl in wheelchair, holding leash of black dog that is wearing a bright red service dog dog vest with the words “Service Dog” printed in black in 2 inch high letters on the red vest. It’s hard to get any more obvious that that.
I believe that Walmart does it either to make it easier for their greeters - just ask everyone - or to avoid someone with a dog that is not obvious complaining that they are inconsistent (i.e. - “You questioned my dog, but you did not ask that person.”)
I agree it is against the law for them to ask with an obvious service dog and I agree they are probably just letting in ANY dog when the person says it is a service dog.

I think you should make a complaint to the ADA if you have not already. You have a perfect case - obvious disability, greeter knows you and your dog by name, but still ask.
If you have not done anything yet, I would at least send the store manager a letter explaining what is happening and a copy of this summary of the changes to the ADA regarding Service Animals.
http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

I can’t wait to hear what happens when Walmart gets their first Service miniature horse visit (the greeter will probably ask if it is a service dog!)
Should we be simply sitting on a curb (and you all know how pushing and shoving it gets even when you stake out your spot) he gets nervous because even if we step back a few spots to let other kids sit he doesn't know where we are once those lights go down. I can see him, but he can't see us. So in this situation, having a controlled area to sit (like the roped off area) would do a lot to make him able to watch the parade. It's not that he can't see the parade while sitting on the curb, but it's that the darkness around him and the fact that he can't see us is the bigger issue. Picture sitting in a dark space and then not being able to figure out the people around you - is the guy next to you your dh or not?
A good further explanation of what I posted a page or so back.
Also, I have n ever been to the CP, but someone mentioned in another thread (or maybe it was PM to me during a discussion of vision issues) that sometimes the front row - or the assigned seats for visual impairment - are not the most appropriate seats. For instance, my son has bilateral peripheral vision loss, on the upper corners of his eyes. So if he were to sit low and try to look up that will be right where his vision is missing. So this other poster explained that it's ok to ask for a different location if the 'front' just doesn't work (and after she told me this it was like ahha! that's so true, it wouldn't work for my child).
That is what a lot of front row seating is like.
I don’t have time to make a list, but a few attractions like that are Beauty and the Beast at the Studio, Nemo the Musical at AK and American Adventure at Epcot. The stage floor in all of those is actually above the front rows. Nemo front seats are actually limited view because of how the stage juts out into a walkway.

More disturbing, there have been cases where someone with a visual disability entered the theater along with us before the rest of the guests. They chose seats in the middle of the 3rd or 4th row in the theater. When other guests came in, we could see guests who were purposely making more or an effort to get by them than they needed to (even stepping on feet). I have seen posts where people say they purposely stomp on feet of people who "stop in the middle of the row” because they feel it is rude to stop there. :scared1:


I'm sorry but it is equal assess and they do just that for the deaf I believe. Disney does have specific number of shows with specific times that are for hearing impaired, that have interpreters there. Sue or someone may have to correct me if I am wrong, since I have never checked into this, but it does have them and when you call they will tell you when they are, if you can not make that show, than my understanding is you have to request a specific show and time and they will do it, but they first try to accommodate all hearing impaired with say one show a week. So if you are going to see Aladin, and you call for an interpreter, they will say, we have an interpreter on Tuesday,Wednesday and Saturday at the 11 am show, if that does not work for you then they try to accommodate but it is not a definitely. This to me is equal access. They try to make it available to those who are there several different days a week. But just like early enterence, if you sleep in late on those days you can't just ask for them to let you stay in the park late at night, they try to accommodate at other times but it is not a guarantee.
There is a difference - for guests who need sign language interpretation, they know that there is a need for a trained interpreter.
To get that, they may need to go to a different show/time than they planned.

I believe people with visual disabilities would complain - there is just a need for seats, so designating certain shows as those where they would be allowed in early is kind of an artificial restraint.
Having a certain number of seats designated for guests with visual disabilities would be similar to wheelchair seating. There are limited number of wheelchair spots for many shows. If we get there and all are already taken, we wait for the next show.
One difficulty I can see with designating spots for guests with visual disabilities is that there is no specific spot that fits all needs.
I think the problem with ADA and service dog requirements, is that it is an official state agency who has laws and doctors on staff when you ask for a disabled parking placard. And you are asking for it. When it comes to the general public, there are so many opinions and biasis, they feel keep it general, and I use to agree many years ago, but more and more Americans are claiming that there pet dogs are service animals. Also, HUD as a federal agency did great to allow pets in housing, but they confused the issue in saying that they need only a doctors note and they can't be charged pet fees. I'm sorry but mist doctors would not argue with a 90 year old women who wanted her cat without a $500 pet fee and just write her a note, which as I say I am not arguing, I believe elderly and disabled need pets, but when does a doctor say no, is it to the 65 year old, or to the 45 year old. Once the 65 year old gets to keep her pet in the apartment, others want to, which again is great, but then one by one they go out into the community, the animal in the mind of the person is special because they after all have a doctors note stating they need the animal, so can the lay person who drives a bus, or the part time worker at subway, or the greeter at Walmart say no, no they can not legally, all they can ask is if the pet is for a service animal, what work does it do. The execs at Walmart may be able to tell if the answers are true, but they tell the workers to just let go, because they can't train there people who themselves are older to spot the difference. People today can go online and order vest for service dogs, there are web sites that will send you a paper that states your dog is certisfied, that is why as a guide dog user, if asked for documentation, I refuse to give it, since by law it is no allowed to ask for, but anyone with it to me would have an uncertified dog since ADA states you can not be asked for it and they probably just got it off line.
I agree that one of the problems is there is no specific agency.

When DOJ opened it up three years ago, I wrote in, I wanted just some simple standards, all service dogs must be altered, to me a dog not altered can not work effectively, what good is a female dog in heat, even if she behaves, others dogs will still be chasing her. I wanted all services dogs to pass basic good citizen award training. I would have liked to see specific breeds, not allowed as service animals, sorry I know it is not there fault it is mankind, but even the best pit bull can turn on a person, I don't think they should be allowed to be used in public. But those are my opinions and DOJ must have had both sides weighing in strongly because basically they left it all pretty much the same way, except a service animal is a dog, it is no longer a monkey or a horse.
I agree it would be good if all service animals had to be altered. That makes sense. You don’t want a female dog in heat being distracted and pursued.

The new guidelines DID allow miniature horses in some situations though.Since the original thread was about the settlement and since we've ventured specifically into parades, here is what the settlement says:
To me it sounds like Disney was NOT allowing everyone into the disabled viewing areas and now they are. Not just w/c or ecvs. They're admitting that there are other guests with needs who are allowed to be in those areas. (but not limited to guests with visual impairments) Now, sure, people are going to complain. And yes, we all know that someone, somewhere is going to imply that someone deserves the spot more than someone else and someone is going to imply that someone is abusing it. But the benefit for everyone is that Disney is making these spots available to all guests with disabilities.

I really can't see what the argument is here.
That has not been our experience. We have been in the handicapped viewing areas with guests who are not using mobility devices. The most recent few were guests who had children with autism. This was not just recently, but as long ago as 10 years.
The guests with non-visible disabilities did have GACs and were told that the front row was for guests with disabilities in most of the viewing areas.
An exception was Frontierland, where some of the area is only one or 2 people deep.

buffettgirl
05-04-2012, 01:43 PM
..snipped...
That has not been our experience. We have been in the handicapped viewing areas with guests who are not using mobility devices. The most recent few were guests who had children with autism. This was not just recently, but as long ago as 10 years.
The guests with non-visible disabilities did have GACs and were told that the front row was for guests with disabilities in most of the viewing areas.
An exception was Frontierland, where some of the area is only one or 2 people deep.
so that then leads me to wonder what brought on the lawsuit. Doesn't it? And I know you have a ton of experience (and years) using these locations, so if you say it already is allowed then I am apt to believe you (more than disney) so makes me then scratch my head and wonder what specifically happened that parade areas were included, specifically, in the settlement . I can't imagine that they'd include it in the settlement if there were no basis, right? If Disney said "well, wait, we already do this.....it's already our policy, so we don't need to change anything."

so I'd love to know what brought it all on in the first place. Wouldn't you?

SueM in MN
05-04-2012, 02:16 PM
I think it is inconsistent for one thing.
I also think there may be more difficulty at Disneyland.

Some of it has me scratching my head. One of the specific things in the settlement is a complaint that the characters at Crystal Palace at MK in WDW.
The complaint states that the characters refused to pose with the dog, the character handler said they are not allowed to pose with service animals, the guest went to Guest Relations and complained, but was told they are not allowed to pose with service animals.
There has to be a "no, but ...." in there somewhere since there are many pictures posted on the DIS and other sites not only showing characters posing, but going above and beyond to pose. So, it makes you wonder what they asked the character to do that was not allowed.

Some of the things they demanded and claimed were required under the ADA (free ticket for companion and place to kennel dog during rides) are nice, but not required.

This is not to say there is no merit in the lawsuit or nothing that could be done better, just that some of the claims are strange.

buffettgirl
05-04-2012, 02:31 PM
I think it is inconsistent for one thing.
I also think there may be more difficulty at Disneyland.

Some of it has me scratching my head. One of the specific things in the settlement is a complaint that the characters at Crystal Palace at MK in WDW.
The complaint states that the characters refused to pose with the dog, the character handler said they are not allowed to pose with service animals, the guest went to Guest Relations and complained, but was told they are not allowed to pose with service animals.
There has to be a "no, but ...." in there somewhere since there are many pictures posted on the DIS and other sites not only showing characters posing, but going above and beyond to pose. So, it makes you wonder what they asked the character to do that was not allowed.

Some of the things they demanded and claimed were required under the ADA (free ticket for companion and place to kennel dog during rides) are nice, but not required.

This is not to say there is no merit in the lawsuit or nothing that could be done better, just that some of the claims are strange.

well, the more we talk it over, it sure does seem strange to me as well.

The whole "companion ticket" had me totally scratching my head.

gilesmt
05-04-2012, 05:33 PM
so that then leads me to wonder what brought on the lawsuit. Doesn't it? And I know you have a ton of experience (and years) using these locations, so if you say it already is allowed then I am apt to believe you (more than disney) so makes me then scratch my head and wonder what specifically happened that parade areas were included, specifically, in the settlement . I can't imagine that they'd include it in the settlement if there were no basis, right? If Disney said "well, wait, we already do this.....it's already our policy, so we don't need to change anything."

so I'd love to know what brought it all on in the first place. Wouldn't you?


Here is a couple of thoughts that come to mind and I could be way off.

First, I think the new ADA laws brought up a lot of good qualities that blind individuals can sue about because they are now clear. Ex. Before it stated alternative format, so many things came in Braille. Well less than 10% of blind, but now it specifies a few things like audio, or call and read, and many other things.

Second, Disney's policies have changed wildly over the passed 10 years. There was a time that I got lots of help, then GAC cards came out and I will guess here but maybe from 5 to 7 years back, every time I asked for a GAC I was told no my cane would get me in the "back door". Then finally blind persons got there own stamp, but for the next two years almost no one knew what the stamp ment, so for more than a year my stamp got me front of the line access to soaring, which I never asked for, I would walk up show my card and be escorted down to the next flight boarding. But it gave me back row seating with w/c persons in many cases. Then the last few years I was separated from w/c persons and giving my own spot usually up front. This is mainly Disney land. With all these confusions and a public mentality what difference does it make if I can't see upset enough to finally say let's sue.

Third I think what ADA also did was broden the definition for blindness to include visually impaired this time, although this is a read between the lines kind of thing, not specifically stated. In medical world and disability world you can be partially paralyzed and disabled, but if you are partially sighted or blinded in one eye you were never disabled before. This is not an argument, just stating what is true in terms of disabilities. If blinded in one eye you can still see and still drive if your sight is good in other eye so no one sees you are disabled. In the world of social security you to be disabled under legally blind you must be not legally blind but statutorily blind. To claim blindness on a tax return you must be legally blind. I think the new ADA brought out the words visually impaired to show there are some in-between vision problems. It was easy to see someone with a limp as having a problem even if not paralyzed, ADA new laws bring up visual impairments other than blindness, can't see in dark, can read unless up close. Disney always tried to accommodate blind, very poorly but did try, but the way they tried was to put us in with endurance and w/c persons, since in there mind my problem with me in the park is, I would need a cane, so treat me like a crippled, I would move slower on and off rides, so treat me like a crippled and I would have a companion and or a service animal, so in there minds they tried to accommodate me by giving me the same access as a w/c or an endurance person. This is not what blind individuals need, but even more this is not what visually impaired persons need.

I think the law suit was just one of many that will come out of the new ADA, some went into effect last March some this march. We also need to remember that this was three individuals who sued, not an organization for blind, so the reasonable accommodations are more for visually impaired, rather than blind, because I say, if truly blind under law or even more strict under social security rules, Disney could not accommodate me at a parade to see, they would have to put it on a 60 inch screen tv with me sitting 2 inches away and every piece of the parade up close. Then maybe I could see it. But to accommodate me with space for me and my dog maybe they have addressed the issue. I need my dog to be able to see things coming so he can walk around them, unlike another type of service animal, who the person in a w/c would move the dog out of the way, my dog has to move me out of the way.

Like I said, just my thoughts and I have to wait and see what comers in reality from this. My question is like the kennels. Are they cleaned after each use. As stated in this thread and others, not so legitimate dogs are going on vacation with human partners who do not qualify as service dogs. There is no law to check on these because you can not ask for documentation. So for me, I would not use a kennel, even though I love the idea, why, well let's say that not so legitimate service dog goes into the kennel before me, well I know my legitimate dog has all the right shots, I know my legitimate dog has monthly meds for heart worm, I know my legitimate dog has frontline monthly for fleas and ticks. How do I know that not so legitimate dog has that and I put my dog in the kennel. At least in the regular kennels on site they have to show short records to stay, these would not be in the kennels, these are create at the beginning or end of rides, how are they going to insure my dogs safety. I really am concerned with there. How often will they be cleaned, once a day, or after each use.I can see a lot of kennel cough at least going around if not other problems with this.

A Mickeyfan
05-05-2012, 03:34 AM
Now, as for the seating at the Candelight Processional. I didn't read the OPs statement the way you're all reading it. I read it as she was told there was no "vision" section yet eventually she was led to the "hearing" section (not the "section for all people with disabilities) and was just speaking in amazement that the CM didn't seem to think that there was a need for her to sit there. I'm not sure since she hasn't been back, but that's how I read her statement. Not that she didn't want to sit in the "hearing impaired" section and not that she felt that there needed to be a separate "vision impaired" section, but that the CM didn't immediately direct her to the appropriate section. Also, I have n ever been to the CP, but someone mentioned in another thread (or maybe it was PM to me during a discussion of vision issues) that sometimes the front row - or the assigned seats for visual impairment - are not the most appropriate seats. For instance, my son has bilateral peripheral vision loss, on the upper corners of his eyes. So if he were to sit low and try to look up that will be right where his vision is missing. So this other poster explained that it's ok to ask for a different location if the 'front' just doesn't work (and after she told me this it was like ahha! that's so true, it wouldn't work for my child).

so...unless I'm totally misreading the post about the CP (which is what I think started the discussion) I think it was simply that there was no assigned seating for this OP and she was questioning why.

You totally understood what I was saying... Here Disney has a wheelchair section and a section for the hearing impaired but nothing for the vision impaired. I didn't mind sitting in with the hearing impaired. It got me up to the front where I needed to be for night fall, the only thing that was bad was that I was on the side. When night falls, my peripheral vision isn't very good. So sitting on the side of the theater put me at a disadvantage, but I dealt with it. I was there early enough to be allowed to sit in any other section toward the front center rows, but the CM didn't put me there. My GAC states front row(s), at first he wasn't doing that for me either. Yes, you understood what I was saying, there are sections for other impairments but not vision.. that was my point. :thumbsup2 That is why I am so happy that this has happened to Disney. Maybe now they will take the visually impaired a little more serious.

A Mickeyfan
05-05-2012, 03:47 AM
And what was wrong with the section for the deaf and hard of hearing. It is in the front. They normally use that area for both. Honestly there isn't that much of a need to see at Candlelight Processional as there is no drama. The only time I even look at the narrator is if Marlee Matlin is narrating. Otherwise I focus on the sign language interpreter. While I can hear the orchestra music I cannot distinguish the words being sung.

Nothing is wrong with it.. my comment was made to show that there are sections for wheelchairs and hearing impairments but not vision impairments. After having to so say to the CM "well this is a theater isn't it?" and then pointing to my stamp and telling him it clearly states I should get front row access. I was there early enough too. They started seating from the back sections and why they did that was beyond me. He was a bit annoyed he looked around and said follow me. He took me down to the section for the hearing impaired. I actually enjoyed watching the signing. You above all people should have understood my post.. :confused: Disney doesn't have accommodations for the visually impaired.. they have more for the totally blind than the impaired. They have really nothing for us. When there is dim lighting and you cannot read a menu, they don't read it to us, and Braille won't help us because we don't read Braille .. Disney doesn't turn up the lighting to help us :( they don't accommodate us. The seating for the parades/fireworks, where do they put us.. nowhere. We aren't to go where the wheelchairs go.. we are to be in a massive crowd of people in the dark. we cannot see the people (or make out their faces) of who we are with, we cannot see the curbing on the ground, these are all hazards to us. Disney does nothing for us. No offense to anyone, but you can have someone with a broken foot and their family of 10 in the wheelchair section, but those with low vision are left to fend for themselves..:mad: that is the point I was trying to make with my post.. ::yes:: Disney doesn't have anything for us.

A Mickeyfan
05-05-2012, 04:03 AM
I'm trying to think of a way to ask my questions without coming across as arguementative because I'm honestly just trying to understand. Please take my questions as genuinely trying to understand and be supportive because that honestly is where I'm coming from.

Is there a reason why you can't watch the parades from anywhere else along the route? Anybody can stake out a spot along a curb on a bench along the route. Is something wrong with these areas? Is there a reason why you can't see as well from other areas along the parade routes?

As for the Candlelight Prcessional, is your chief complaint that there isn't an area specifically called visual impairment seating? I definitely understand your complaint that you had to argue about getting accomodated. Those types of arguements do get old (the whole point of the GAC is so that we can GET needed accomodatios and I think all of us who use them get frustrated when we have to argue to get what we need). I just don't understand why the hearing impaired section didn't meet the accomodation. Is this area not close enough (I honestly don't know where the area is; I'm just making the assumption that it's close to the front)? I would think that it would need to be close in order for hearing impaired people to be able to clearly see the signers. Does that not meet your needs? What do you need that wasn't met by that section?
if you really read my post, you would have gotten the point I was making.. there are no accommodations for the visually impaired.. I didn't complain about sitting with the hearing impaired, I complained there was no visually impaired seating. What is my problem with parades, nothing during the day if you read my post, I can sit anywhere.. but when night falls it is a different story.. sit on the curb.. I have a problem seeing the curb at night, never mind trying to sit on it when there are massive crowds of rude people. My vision drops drastically at night. Try putting a a black stocking over your head then putting on sunglasses and walking into a dark room filled with people. That is me. You cannot see who is around you. You cannot see if your family or friends are still next to you or did some rude guest separate you (which has happened to me). Then when the fireworks/parade is over, all the pushing and shoving, I get pushed off the curb. I need to hold onto someone. I hope this clears it up a bit for you. I don't expect many to understand because vision is something that one cannot understand unless it is happening to them or a loved one and they are witnessing what their loved one is going through.

If I can flip this without sounding too petty, why should a person with a sprained ankle (clearly not a real disability) renting a wheelchair have more rights than I do? They don't get questioned but I do and I am told to deal with it in so many words... :mad: Disney's solution would be for me to rent a wheelchair.. and no, that is not what I need. This lawsuit is the best thing that could have happened for people like me. My eyes will only get worse, they will never get better. It is not a temporary thing. I will eventually over time get full blown Macular Degeneration. I will become legally blind first and if there are no cures for it by then, I will become blind. I am only 55 years old. My mother had it and was almost totally blind by the time she died (78 years old). She found out about hers at the age of 54. I found out about mine at the age of 50. My uncle (her brother) has it too..

so.. did I answer your questions to help you understand my point of view..:)

A Mickeyfan
05-05-2012, 04:12 AM
Which spots are high-visibility? Isn't front row pretty much anywhere on the parade routes similar? I guess I'm not understanding how somebody who has a child too short to see over people has more options for viewing locations than somebody with impared vision. These families don't have other options either. They either get there early to stake out a spot or they don't watch (we're in the don't watch group because my autistic daughter can't cope with the wait; it is what it is). I'm honestly not trying to arguementative. I just don't understand how the accessible are offers better visibility than spots say along main street or liberty square.

I too have been in this group for the longest time.. because it isn't even just a matter of sitting and waiting.. it is what goes on once the crowds start coming, pushing and shoving (and as I explained, getting separated from family or friends) In fact, when I go to Disney alone, I cannot even stay for night fall, I have to leave before it gets dark.. I cannot drive in the dark..:sad2:

A Mickeyfan
05-05-2012, 04:19 AM
I'm just a tiny bit shocked that we're debating the need for accommodations for any group of disabled guests. This is a win for everyone.

I am too, but that just proves what I have said all along.. visual impairments are not taken seriously by many.. not by Disney and not by others on this board.. I don't want to get in trouble for anything but I know the comments that were said to me about the HM... :eek: They don't get it because they can see.. I really think in order for anyone to completely understand this, they have to have a loved one or be dealing with it themselves... because to most, visually impaired means blind..and what is the big deal, you can't see anyway.. that is their mindset.. so why should there be accommodations...:rolleyes1 they do not understand it at all...

A Mickeyfan
05-05-2012, 04:46 AM
Thank you! This is the kind of thing I was asking about. I can see how in your situation with your son, it could be dangerous to sit on the curb with him. The potential for being separated and him not finding you is a real risk. That being said, you are very well spoken and I'm just not imagining you walking up to a CM demanding to be seated in a specific area. I would imagine you would explain that the purpose of your GAC is so that you can be protected from this kind of jockying and being separated due to his inability to find you if you have people squeeze between you with his particular type of vision difficulty. That doesn't mean that EVERY person who has a GAC indicating vision issues needs this. Clearly you can explain your needed accomodation to CMs and should be helped by them. If they refuse then that's horrible. I'm not even trying to say that your situation is the only one that would require an accomodation for parades because obviously there are other situations as well, many I'm sure that I can't think of myself. I'm just saying that some people are coming across as though a blanket disability of vision impairment should automatically mean seating in the accessible area. As the mother of an autistic child, I know that people with the same diagnosis could very easily have very different needs and I DO expect to have to explain my family's need.

Maybe I did misinterpret that person's situation at CP. I think I've read that particular posted making demands in the past that make me shake my head. I could be reading more into the situation than was intended. I HAD read it as though the person was upset that they weren't given an area specifically for vision impairment. If that's not the intention then I appologize for taking up time in this thread for this part of my questions.



OMG, with a service dog I can't imagine sitting by the curb. That would I imagine be very dangerous for the dog.

I do think it's wrong when you're told that the accomodation is black and white you have to sit in a specific area when we all know that the same diagnosis will potentially mean different accomodation requirements for different people. I'm sorry to hear that you have to deal with this. Hopefully this is some of what will be addressed with the changes that will hopefully come about as a result of this lawsuit. You should be able to state what difficulty you have and be accomodated rather than being told "you have to sit in area xyz because that's what we have for all blanket disabilities". That's just wrong.

I do want to mention that issues with balance and needing to not be in crowded areas in order to avoid being bumped should be discussed with Guest Relations. This could potentially require a different accomodation than one needed for visual impairment. From the CMs' perspectives, if they see a GAC indicating visual impairment, they're typically going to thing that the only thing you need help with (whether this is right or wrong) is being close up to shows/screen and that you might need to avoid hazzards. I do see how a person with extremely limitted vision could easily be thrown off balance when bumped but I don't know if CMs will consider this when looking at accomodating vision impairment. I guess you know from your own experience if whatever accomodation you're given for the service dog or if whatever accomodation you're given for your vision issues is enough or not. Just something to think about though.

ETA: I hope I'm not the person who asked what difference it makes if you can't see. I totally get that you want to experience WDW with your family and that you can still enjoy all the other sensory inputs. If I did ask (I can't remember or maybe something I said was misinterpretted) then I'm sorry.

yes, you have read about me making requesting (demanding as you put it) that the Haunted Mansion follow proper guidelines for the visually impaired. Until you have walked in my shoes, please don't put me down for requesting what I need and what my GAC states. I would not do that to you. If you would like a medical history on me.. just ask..

1. mild drusen (start of macular degeneration, must see the Opthamologist 3-4 times a year to check on me)
2. swollen optic nerve ( see a Neuro-Opthamologist for this as the regular one doesn't deal with this condition).
3. loss of peripheral vision in both eyes (have a field visual test 3 times a year to check on loss)
4. loss of night vision (have already had double cataract surgery by the age of 50 & seondary by 52).
5. Arthritis in my right hip & go for cortisone shots (which makes it hard to sit on the curb if you really insist on knowing and you would not want me to stand in front of your child would you? I am considerate and if I see a good spot to camp out at, I don't want to take it from a child due to the need to stand :))
6. Arthritis in both hands and entire right arm from wrist up to the shoulder (have had surgeries in both arms) and take meds 3 times a day for this)
7. suffer from Vertigo and Migraines
8. Hypoglycemic (which I must be tested every 3 months to see if it has progressed to diabetes yet, as they feel my sugar has been high the last few testings at the 6 month intervels. My father passed away from diabetes)
9. Asthma (on 2 inhalers)

so complete run down of me.. do I have to sit/stand on a curb in the dark (where I will possibly get bumped away from my party) because I refuse to pay Disney to rent a wheelchair.. I am mobile and can walk. :confused3 and this is really an explaination that should not be needed as the this was addressed in the lawsuit.. it isn't just me

I understand you are bitter, and I am sorry your daughter cannot enjoy the parades and everything a child should. I am not just demanding these things for "me", I am doing so for others. There are many out there like me. If voices aren't heard, nothing ever gets done. Sure, I am an adult, but there are children who have these vision problems. My cousin was born legally blind.. I am sorry you cannot see my posts for what they are, they aren't selfish for me. If Disney cannot get their act together for the visually impaired they will have many other lawsuits on their hands. Like I said in another post a broken foot, a sprained ankle.. they are not protected under the ADA guidelines yet they get that treatment at Disney. There are some visual impairments that do fall under ADA guidelines (such as Macular Degeneration or any that cannot be corrected by surgery or lenses and will progress), yet Disney does nothing for these people (adults or children. This is the point I am trying to make here.. but it is not coming across.. This is tuning into an a major discussion of who has the "worst" complaint :confused3 That is not what this is suppose to be about.. it is about supporting each other.. not doubting each other..:confused3 Visual impairments are real.. they exist and there are many different aspects to them.. and Disney doesn't seem to help those who are in need of help. You go out to eat there, you can read a menu can't you? Sometimes I can't and I have no one to read it to me.. is this right? :sad2:

A Mickeyfan
05-05-2012, 05:14 AM
For those of you who feel it may be "wrong" of us visually impaired to ask for parade viewing, please remember, this was in the lawsuit and it must now be provided.... so this isn't just something that I am asking for.. ;) take a look at the lawsuit.. it was granted too.. that is why I am happy.. and yes, Disney did not allow those with visual impairments to go into the disAbled viewing areas.. now they must.... regardless how some feel about it.. it is going to be ADA guidelines...... it isn't just me..."demanding" it...:goodvibes

A Mickeyfan
05-05-2012, 09:16 AM
well, the more we talk it over, it sure does seem strange to me as well.

The whole "companion ticket" had me totally scratching my head.

I am on the fence with thisl. I understand that on one hand, why should Disney have to offer a free admission for a companion (but then other places do give companion tickets). However, on the flip side, I am not walking in that persons shoes. I don't know what it would be like being totally blind and having to need someone with me while in the theme parks... and then having to pay for them on top of it. This isn't like just an adult child situation, this can be adult adult situations and without that other adult with you, you just will not be able to do particular things.. such as go to a theme park period. It isn't as if you just cannot do certain attractions, it is not being able to go at all, there is a big difference in that situation.

So until I walk in their shoes, I don't think of this as totally strange. It is hard enough for me with limited vision to walk there at night in the crowds, I cannot do that alone. I cannot imagine trying to get around alone without any sight :worried: ... that would be nearly impossible with the strollers, ECV's, wheelchairs and then not to mention the children darting out in front of you (I am not implying stroller & ECV/wheelchair users dart in front of you, only children.. I want to make this clear for some who read into things differently). A cane alone just won't cut it, and having a service dog is just as bad in the massive crowds as we have seen from posters here. Many guests aren't watching out for you, they are expecting you to watch for them.. and they aren't alert to the fact that you may be blind.. as they aren't alert to the fact some have limited vision... So while we sighted (even limited vision) persons may think of something as strange or odd, I don't think I can until I have walked in their shoes. I know with my mother, there were many places she could not go alone and that was with a small portion of sight left.

SueM in MN
05-05-2012, 09:30 AM
I am on the fence with thisl. I understand that on one hand, why should Disney have to offer a free admission for a companion (but then other places do give companion tickets). However, on the flip side, I am not walking in that persons shoes. I don't know what it would be like being totally blind and having to need someone with me while in the theme parks... and then having to pay for them on top of it. This isn't like just an adult child situation, this can be adult adult situations and without that other adult with you, you just will not be able to do particular things.. such as go to a theme park period. It isn't as if you just cannot do certain attractions, it is not being able to go at all, there is a big difference in that situation.

So until I walk in their shoes, I don't think of this as totally strange. It is hard enough for me with limited vision to walk there at night in the crowds, I cannot do that alone. I cannot imagine trying to get around alone without any sight :worried: ... that would be nearly impossible with the strollers, ECV's, wheelchairs and then children darting out in front of you. A cane alone just won't cut it, and having a service dog is just as bad in the massive crowds as we have seen from posters here. Many guests aren't watching out for you, they are expecting you to watch for them.. and they aren't alert to the fact that you may be blind.. as they aren't alert to the fact some have limited vision... So while we sighted (even limited vision) persons may think of something as strange or odd, I don't think I can until I have walked in their shoes. I know with my mother, there were many places she could not go alone and that was with a small portion of sight left.
The big thing with the companion tickets was that the people bringing the suit claimed it was a violation of the ADA to not allow the companion to enter for free.
It is not.
Some businesses choose to offer it, but it is not required. And, some of the places that offer it, offer because a large number of their attractions are not accessible to people with certain disabilities.

There are many situations where a person with a disability requires a companion.
For example, some people may need an assistant to help with transfers. Some need help with a wheelchair pushed because they can’t push it themselves. Some need a person with them because they are not able to be responsible for themselves. Some need to have total care of another person because they need to be fed, taken to the toilet/diapers changed, etc.

It would be a big expense to a business to be forced to provide a “Companion Discount” for anyone who needed assistance in the park. As a parent of a child who needs total assistance, I don’t think it would be fair to push that kind of cost onto Disney.
Will my youngest DD ever be able to travel to WDW without a companion? No.
But, I don’t think that is a reason to force Disney to pay for a companion.

A Mickeyfan
05-05-2012, 09:55 AM
The big thing with the companion tickets was that the people bringing the suit claimed it was a violation of the ADA to not allow the companion to enter for free.
It is not.
Some businesses choose to offer it, but it is not required. And, some of the places that offer it, offer because a large number of their attractions are not accessible to people with certain disabilities.

There are many situations where a person with a disability requires a companion.
For example, some people may need an assistant to help with transfers. Some need help with a wheelchair pushed because they can’t push it themselves. Some need a person with them because they are not able to be responsible for themselves. Some need to have total care of another person because they need to be fed, taken to the toilet/diapers changed, etc.

It would be a big expense to a business to be forced to provide a “Companion Discount” for anyone who needed assistance in the park. As a parent of a child who needs total assistance, I don’t think it would be fair to push that kind of cost onto Disney.
Will my youngest DD ever be able to travel to WDW without a companion? No.
But, I don’t think that is a reason to force Disney to pay for a companion.
I understand what you are saying, which is why I said I am on the fence with it. I cannot go either way with it because I am not in their shoes.. this is a real hard call.

I will say that in the ADA guidelines there were many things stated that Disney did not follow. I know for a fact I mentioned reading the menu's, and turning up the lighting. If they cannot turn up the lighting for those with the low vision, they are to provide assistance. Yet when I commented on that here, people seemed to have thought I was wrong. So maybe some are really not understanding what exactly they were to provide ... if they cannot provide it themselves, they must have an alternative.. and that alternative would be a free companion pass :confused3 and the same would go for any other who do need that "true" companion, not just someone like me at night, but someone like your daughter.

People tend to read into posts here, but should be reading into the ADA guidelines... carefully.. :thumbsup2 there's wording in there that is allowing companies to not follow the guidelines because the individual is not aware.....:thumbsup2 I cannot speak for any other ADA guideline (at least not yet, but just may be real soon with my DH and his neck/back :worried::worried::worried::worried: he may be pulled out of work permanently and placed on Social Security Disability :sad2::sad2::sad2:), but I have read the one for vision many many times.. my mother was the person caught with the no social security disability, but got her tax deductions due to her disability, she had her handicapped tag (even though she was not allowed to drive, we had to drive her) she got her real estate tax deductions, got all her vision benefits such as her special sunglasses where absolutely no light gets in and health insurance had to cover it.. I have learned from what she went through both legally and medically on what is to be expected from me if there are no cures found for Macular Degeneration. ... and if no cure is found.. my eyes are ahead of hers as far as time frame goes....:worried::eek::worried: My biggest fear is loosing my independence.. I have already lost my night driving...hard to deal with at the age of only 55 :(

clanmcculloch
05-05-2012, 04:05 PM
Wow, you've totally misunderstood me if you think I'm bitter. I've said many, many, many times on this board and I've even said it in this thread that I'm grateful for the accomodations that ARE in place at WDW and that I totally understand that there aren't accomodations for everything. My frustration comes with hearing people hold a company like WDW who goes so much farther than most other companies I've encountered to so much higher of a standard than other companies and then still say it's not enough.

I wasn't putting you down for requesting accomodations. I do get frustrated with your tone though. In so many of your posts, you come across as very agressive and even derrogatory (not necessarily all of your posts, but there have been many). I can't help but wonder if you speak this way to CMs as well. You know the old saying about more flies with honey. The way you describe some of your situations is VERY demanding and hostile. Not being there obviously I can't say if you were different in the actual situations and you're just expressing your frustration here or if you were just as hostile towards the CMs you were encountering. Just something to think about. Maybe a different approach in general would be helpful.

All the issues you've listed that you encounter at parades are issues that I have with my daughter. I know I said we don't sit through parades because of the wait but there's a lot more to it than that. The close proximity to so many people is just not something she can cope with, especially not for prolonged periods of time. It's just her reality. If I plan strategically, I can actually get her a viewing spot that works and we have done that a few times in all of our trips. I just don't see why I should ask for an accomodation for something that I can do myself just like anybody else. Since I can do it, I try to remain respectful of those who have no other options and not take one of their limited spots. You said yourself that you can see the parades just fine during the day. This is just like my daughter being able to cope if I plan correctly and choose a parade time that's not as busy and choose a viewing area that's not as crouded (touring plan services really do help figure this kind of thing out). Yes, we're more limited than the majority of guests, but that's the fault of her disability, not Disney. That accessible viewing area actually is very crowded and will not prevent us from being bumped or crowded into a small space. Oh, and typically they won't allow a large group like you described sit in the accessible viewing area. If you do choose to sit in there and you're travelling with a group, be prepared to be separated from them. That's something that folks with mobility devices who sit in that area have to deal with right now so that will now be your difficulty as well. It's very unfortunate but the seating is limitted and it's the only way to ensure as many people as possible who need the accessible viewing area can use it.

In restaurants, I'm surprised that you've had trouble getting servers to read to you. They work for tips. When I worked in restaurants, I would have gladly read for a guest if asked. Personally, I'd always have a small flashlight to brighten my menu if I couldn't see in dark places but I also wouldn't be shy about asking for my server to read to me. If the server refused I'd ask to be moved to the station of a server who wants to work for their tip. That's what people who work in the service industry who rely on tips are supposed to do, provide service. What a poor server if they refuse.

I don't understand your reasoning for getting upset with people with other disabilities or difficulties that are accomodated. I get that you feel that you're not recieving acceptable accomodations and I'm not you and don't know what you go through. I do see you rant against others though as though you feel if you aren't getting what you need then nobody should. I'm really sorry that you feel this way and are this upset. Others receiving accomodations does not take away from your situation. If others were to lose accomodations that would not help you. You're directing your frustration to the wrong place. Those with other disabilities, whether temporary or permanent, whether fully legally recognized as disabled or merely having some problem that requires help, are not the problem.

I'm curious about something. In hotels around the country, does somebody give you a run down of locations in your room? I honestly can see how this could be immensely beneficial. I'm wondering if it's something that other companies do. Is this something that would really be required under the ADA? Again, I see how it would be really a great thing to do but I'm not sure I see how not doing it would be an ADA violation. The reason I'm asking if this is something that other hotels do is the I believe one of the things in the lawsuit was a requirement that WDW do this (maybe I remember wrong; I don't feel like going back and checking right now).

Talking Hands
05-05-2012, 06:09 PM
Nothing is wrong with it.. my comment was made to show that there are sections for wheelchairs and hearing impairments but not vision impairments. After having to so say to the CM "well this is a theater isn't it?" and then pointing to my stamp and telling him it clearly states I should get front row access. I was there early enough too. They started seating from the back sections and why they did that was beyond me. He was a bit annoyed he looked around and said follow me. He took me down to the section for the hearing impaired. I actually enjoyed watching the signing. You above all people should have understood my post.. :confused: Disney doesn't have accommodations for the visually impaired.. they have more for the totally blind than the impaired. They have really nothing for us. When there is dim lighting and you cannot read a menu, they don't read it to us, and Braille won't help us because we don't read Braille .. Disney doesn't turn up the lighting to help us :( they don't accommodate us. The seating for the parades/fireworks, where do they put us.. nowhere. We aren't to go where the wheelchairs go.. we are to be in a massive crowd of people in the dark. we cannot see the people (or make out their faces) of who we are with, we cannot see the curbing on the ground, these are all hazards to us. Disney does nothing for us. No offense to anyone, but you can have someone with a broken foot and their family of 10 in the wheelchair section, but those with low vision are left to fend for themselves..:mad: that is the point I was trying to make with my post.. ::yes:: Disney doesn't have anything for us.

Actually when I was at Candlelight last year the CM in that section actually called it the area for the blind and hearing impaired and actually assumed my card was for vision as my speech is very good being late deafened. Actually I have problem with both especially at night. I have night blindness and can no longer drive at night. Fortunately not a problem as my husband does the driving for me most of the time. Btw I was there early and they kept trying to push me to the center to make room for others. I just refused because I am not about to have to keep twisting to see the interpreter plus we had my grandson who was 18 months and we figured we might need a quick exit. We did and hubby removed him quickly.

A Mickeyfan
05-05-2012, 06:34 PM
Actually when I was at Candlelight last year the CM in that section actually called it the area for the blind and hearing impaired and actually assumed my card was for vision as my speech is very good being late deafened. Actually I have problem with both especially at night. I have night blindness and can no longer drive at night. Fortunately not a problem as my husband does the driving for me most of the time. Btw I was there early and they kept trying to push me to the center to make room for others. I just refused because I am not about to have to keep twisting to see the interpreter plus we had my grandson who was 18 months and we figured we might need a quick exit. We did and hubby removed him quickly.

I know you are have to deal with both :hug: . See what I mean about Disney, there is no rhyme or reason why they do what they do. They were pushing you to the center, and keeping me to the side. :confused: The side was better than the back.. By the time the show started, the entire front center was roped off and empty and it remained that way all through out the show. :confused3 When I am home, my DH does all the driving at night. He doesn't come to Disney with me, he cannot do the parks anymore due to his back/neck. So if I don't have friends with me, I cannot stay at night. I have to head to the hotel before night fall if not onsite to take a bus. Even with the bus at night it is still scary, not seeing too well where I am walking and bumping into things.
I will say seated there was easy for me to get out.. :thumbsup2 but I was only able to see part of the "tree" the CM's make. My friend is a CM & I could not see her, but I did enjoy the music.

A Mickeyfan
05-05-2012, 07:19 PM
Wow, you've totally misunderstood me if you think I'm bitter. Yes I did get that from your wording when comparing my requests, demands as you stated, to you dealing with your DD

I wasn't putting you down for requesting accomodations. I do get frustrated with your tone though. In so many of your posts, you come across as very agressive and even derrogatory (not necessarily all of your posts, but there have been many). I can't help but wonder if you speak this way to CMs as well. You know the old saying about more flies with honey. The way you describe some of your situations is VERY demanding and hostile. Not being there obviously I can't say if you were different in the actual situations and you're just expressing your frustration here or if you were just as hostile towards the CMs you were encountering. Just something to think about. Maybe a different approach in general would be helpful.

I don't mean to sound offensive, demeaning or nasty, and no, I don't come across that way with the CM's at the HM until about 15 minutes into the trying to get more flies with honey act. I do know how to request and not demand. On the same token, when you have to stand there time after time and explain yourself over and over, which by the way, you are not supposed to have to even explain to them when you have the proper GAC card. That is my gripe. I even have low vision written on my card, not just the front row stamps for vision. I also have the alt entrance stamped on it as well. After 15 minutes or so of this one does tend to get a bit upset and rightfully so. Once I had to explain it to like 4 different CM's, one of them I had to wait for their arrival. :confused3 Had I gone on the regular line, I would have been able to go around at least twice as there wasn't much of a wait. So they can see I wasn't trying to skip lines :confused:

All the issues you've listed that you encounter at parades are issues that I have with my daughter. I know I said we don't sit through parades because of the wait but there's a lot more to it than that. The close proximity to so many people is just not something she can cope with, especially not for prolonged periods of time. It's just her reality. If I plan strategically, I can actually get her a viewing spot that works and we have done that a few times in all of our trips. I just don't see why I should ask for an accomodation for something that I can do myself just like anybody else. Since I can do it, I try to remain respectful of those who have no other options and not take one of their limited spots. You said yourself that you can see the parades just fine during the day. This is just like my daughter being able to cope if I plan correctly and choose a parade time that's not as busy and choose a viewing area that's not as crouded (touring plan services really do help figure this kind of thing out). Yes, we're more limited than the majority of guests, but that's the fault of her disability, not Disney. That accessible viewing area actually is very crowded and will not prevent us from being bumped or crowded into a small space. Oh, and typically they won't allow a large group like you described sit in the accessible viewing area. If you do choose to sit in there and you're travelling with a group, be prepared to be separated from them. That's something that folks with mobility devices who sit in that area have to deal with right now so that will now be your difficulty as well. It's very unfortunate but the seating is limitted and it's the only way to ensure as many people as possible who need the accessible viewing area can use it.The parade viewing is a big deal to others, not just me, it was in the lawsuit. I don't need to explain any of this to anyone. Sorry if that is rude, but true. It is now going to be mandatory for Disney to provide it. I also explained it to you in a previous post anyway.

In restaurants, I'm surprised that you've had trouble getting servers to read to you. They work for tips. When I worked in restaurants, I would have gladly read for a guest if asked. Personally, I'd always have a small flashlight to brighten my menu if I couldn't see in dark places but I also wouldn't be shy about asking for my server to read to me. If the server refused I'd ask to be moved to the station of a server who wants to work for their tip. That's what people who work in the service industry who rely on tips are supposed to do, provide service. What a poor server if they refuse.
As far as asking them to read it to me, sure, if they aren't busy they can. If they are busy, they won't and legally as per ADA guidelines they must provide for you with this. It isn't me making this up, it isn't me asking for something special. My 2 DD's are servers and they have read to those with vision impairments. My one DD had to go as far as taking the man's wallet and money to cover the check for him. He was totally blind. So yes, there are super servers out there, then there are the busy overworked ones who will not stop and take the time to read. yes, I do carry a small flash light, but the one I have isn't working for me anymore. It doesn't light up enough for me. I need something bright, not a small light. In fact, a friend of mine just got me a pen light to carry. I tried it at the MK to read my Sorcerer Cards..and it didn't work either, not bright enough unless I am under one of their lights in addition to the pen light. She had to read it to me. :confused3
I don't understand your reasoning for getting upset with people with other disabilities or difficulties that are accomodated. I get that you feel that you're not recieving acceptable accomodations and I'm not you and don't know what you go through. I do see you rant against others though as though you feel if you aren't getting what you need then nobody should. I'm really sorry that you feel this way and are this upset. Others receiving accomodations does not take away from your situation. If others were to lose accomodations that would not help you. You're directing your frustration to the wrong place. Those with other disabilities, whether temporary or permanent, whether fully legally recognized as disabled or merely having some problem that requires help, are not the problem. I am not directing my frustrations out in the worng place, I am directing them at Disney, not the other people. It is wrong for Disney to do this, the others aren't the ones who set up the rules and areas. By me asking for what the ADA states I should be getting isn't asking for anything special, why would you even think that way? I used a sprained ankle or broken leg/foot as examples of conditions that are not covered under ADA guidelines, yet Disney allows for them to go on without being questioned. That is the point I am trying to get across, but I don't think you are getting that. Conditions that are under the guidelines are being questioned and not addressed, yet those that aren't under guidelines are treated as if they are. Do you see my point now? :upsidedow

I'm curious about something. In hotels around the country, does somebody give you a run down of locations in your room? I honestly can see how this could be immensely beneficial. I'm wondering if it's something that other companies do. Is this something that would really be required under the ADA? Again, I see how it would be really a great thing to do but I'm not sure I see how not doing it would be an ADA violation. The reason I'm asking if this is something that other hotels do is the I believe one of the things in the lawsuit was a requirement that WDW do this (maybe I remember wrong; I don't feel like going back and checking right now). When I am in a hotel/timeshare condo alone, yes, I have them come in and show me. I also request for the 1st floor. I don't want to take the chance of a fire or other emergency at night and not be able to see to find my way down a flight of stairs. I learned to always request that due to my DH's experiences.
I hope you can see things from a different light.. things are no bed of roses for me.. the way I mistook your tone, is the way you mistake mine. ;) and yes, everything that I have asked of Disney is covered by the ADA guidelines. I am not asking for anything different than any other low vision person. Despite what you feel my tone may be, I do have this, it will never go away, and only get worse. I am frankly tired of having to explain to others why I feel I need something. Visual Impairments are not taken seriously by many. It is something that is very easily over looked because you cannot see any indications of it. Trying to explain it to someone that you cannot see on the side of you, or you cannot see at night makes no sense to them. They look at you, see you are not blind and therefore feel you don't need that accommadation. :sad2: One can turn the other cheek so many times before it starts to hurt.........

loftman52
05-06-2012, 03:51 PM
If you want to know why this class action lawsuit is so messed up, check this out. All of the plaintiffs signed a contract stating that they would not ask or receive any money from this class action lawsuit. From the very start one of the plaintiffs told both sides that she would not accept any money. “I don’t what any money. I what Disney to fix the problems”. Because of this she was removed as Class Representative. But she was still part of the lawsuit. In court on May 3 2012 she asked judge Gee if they were going to fix the problems at the hotels. Mr. Raizman the head Disney lawyer said that Disney would not be fixing the Hotels. (Read the class action certification). Then the judge tried twice to get the plaintiff to take Disney bribe money. When she said no, Judge Gee then asked her if she wanted to be removed from the case. When she realized that the judge was on Disney side she said ok. The only plaintiff willing to fight for the blind and she was removed from the case. Do not take my word for it, check out the court transcript. The judge did not know what state the plaintiff lived in.

A Mickeyfan
05-06-2012, 04:34 PM
If you want to know why this class action lawsuit is so messed up, check this out. All of the plaintiffs signed a contract stating that they would not ask or receive any money from this class action lawsuit. From the very start one of the plaintiffs told both sides that she would not accept any money. “I don’t what any money. I what Disney to fix the problems”. Because of this she was removed as Class Representative. But she was still part of the lawsuit. In court on May 3 2012 she asked judge Gee if they were going to fix the problems at the hotels. Mr. Raizman the head Disney lawyer said that Disney would not be fixing the Hotels. (Read the class action certification). Then the judge tried twice to get the plaintiff to take Disney bribe money. When she said no, Judge Gee then asked her if she wanted to be removed from the case. When she realized that the judge was on Disney side she said ok. The only plaintiff willing to fight for the blind and she was removed from the case. Do not take my word for it, check out the court transcript. The judge did not know what state the plaintiff lived in.
:( now that is sad.. If you are doing if for the reason of changing something, then that is what you do it for. You don't do it for money. Money is truly the root of all evil. Either way, it did change things though. so regardless, I am still happy about that part of it. It isn't right how it came about. Maybe the money that was awarded should have been donated (as a stipulation in the case) to a foundation for research in different areas of what causes visual impairments.. or maybe to Lighthouse which is an organization that helps those who are blind or with low vision.

smidgy
05-23-2012, 03:02 AM
I am VERY interested in the whole outcome of this.

it is so annoying when people belittle the problems of the visually impaired. people think.. you are either blind.. or not.

you get it from both ends.. the totally sighted and the totally blind.

thank you so much, mickey fan, for being an advocate for my hubby and others!!!

Schmeck
05-23-2012, 06:36 AM
I hope you can see things from a different light.. things are no bed of roses for me.. the way I mistook your tone, is the way you mistake mine. ;) and yes, everything that I have asked of Disney is covered by the ADA guidelines. I am not asking for anything different than any other low vision person. Despite what you feel my tone may be, I do have this, it will never go away, and only get worse. I am frankly tired of having to explain to others why I feel I need something. Visual Impairments are not taken seriously by many. It is something that is very easily over looked because you cannot see any indications of it. Trying to explain it to someone that you cannot see on the side of you, or you cannot see at night makes no sense to them. They look at you, see you are not blind and therefore feel you don't need that accommadation. :sad2: One can turn the other cheek so many times before it starts to hurt.........

Does using a red colored font help your condition? It hurts my eyes, but I was wondering if it helped yours?

Talking Hands
05-23-2012, 07:48 PM
I am VERY interested in the whole outcome of this.

it is so annoying when people belittle the problems of the visually impaired. people think.. you are either blind.. or not.

you get it from both ends.. the totally sighted and the totally blind.

thank you so much, mickey fan, for being an advocate for my hubby and others!!!

Same thing with deafness. To most it is black or white. Either you are deaf or you can hear everything. Wish it were so.

Have a friend who is deaf/blind and people ask why she wears glasses. She has macular degeneration and still has limited periferal vision but her central vision are toast. She wearsthem so she can see with the limited vision she has.

A Mickeyfan
05-24-2012, 05:22 PM
Does using a red colored font help your condition? It hurts my eyes, but I was wondering if it helped yours?

it makes it easier to spot for me.. doesn't hurt it at all.. bold makes it easier to read.. but my problem is mainly in the dark. With my glasses I can read fine.. but the red does help me spot it much faster... I know when the police cars have their red lights on.. I see them better than the blue lights.. some use only blue and those I don't see well

Sorry if the red "hurt" your eyes.. didn't mean it to...

A Mickeyfan
05-24-2012, 05:25 PM
Same thing with deafness. To most it is black or white. Either you are deaf or you can hear everything. Wish it were so.

Have a friend who is deaf/blind and people ask why she wears glasses. She has macular degeneration and still has limited periferal vision but her central vision are toast. She wearsthem so she can see with the limited vision she has.

some people just don't get it.. that was like when someone here commented that I should not be driving.. :rotfl: My eye doc says it's fine to drive, for now. I just don't drive at night.... :upsidedow that is where I cannot see.. during the day I can... some just cannot comprehend what they do not understand.. and they don't even try at times either...

A Mickeyfan
05-24-2012, 05:46 PM
I am VERY interested in the whole outcome of this.

it is so annoying when people belittle the problems of the visually impaired. people think.. you are either blind.. or not.

you get it from both ends.. the totally sighted and the totally blind.

thank you so much, mickey fan, for being an advocate for my hubby and others!!!

Hey.. no need to thank me... thank you.. we are in the same boat here.. we "see" the same way in that there is a gray area when it comes to sight.. it isn't just clear sighted or blind... It is sad that some can be so narrow minded when to comes to something they take for granted...:sad2:

smidgy
05-24-2012, 10:16 PM
some people just don't get it.. that was like when someone here commented that I should not be driving.. :rotfl: My eye doc says it's fine to drive, for now. I just don't drive at night.... :upsidedow that is where I cannot see.. during the day I can... some just cannot comprehend what they do not understand.. and they don't even try at times either...

i understand.. that was said about hubby, too. they are wrong. if it was unsafe, he would not do it. (he doesn't drive at night anymore either).

IO try not to be pushy, but when we go to someone's house, I ask if they can turn on the lights (or turn them up). (you would think our friends and family would know by now...:confused3)

Inventor
05-27-2012, 05:19 PM
This is the old Tiiiigergirl for any who remember me :D

I think many of us with disabilities have been judged unfairly. My adult son with autism has had good and bad days at WDW. One time he screamed to the top of his lungs at the entrance of EPCOT that he wanted a new family. Surprisingly nobody took him up on it. :lmao:

But other days he almost "passes" for "normal"whatever that is? :confused3

And on some days I seem to walk just great. Other days I look like a drunken sailor only I hope cleaner and smell better. I have neighbors whose hobby is commenting on the state they think my disabilities are. Unfortunately with Lupus and Crohns the way I'm walking usually has nothing to do with how I'm feeling but I've learned to keep my mouth shut.

One story I've kept in my heart for years and it came from Sue M. She talked about her daughter getting a nice rest on a bench out of her wheelchair. The change in positions was refreshing for her (and occasionally necessary). Her daughter's thin little legs were swinging slightly as I think either Sue or her husband had just settled her on the bench. Then comes along the ill informed Disney goer who accuses the family of trying to cheat the system (with their expensive child wheelchair:confused3). I don't even remember what Sue said or did I just know it was classy as only Sue can be. Sue is never a pushover but she always seems kind and infinitely patient.

I guess no matter the disability I for one am on your side as long as it is reasonable and everything here usually is.

I told my son a long time ago his life will be harder than others but that will never stop me from trying to make it easier.

SueM in MN
05-27-2012, 06:23 PM
This is the old Tiiiigergirl for any who remember me :D

I think many of us with disabilities have been judged unfairly. My adult son with autism has had good and bad days at WDW. One time he screamed to the top of his lungs at the entrance of EPCOT that he wanted a new family. Surprisingly nobody took him up on it. :lmao:

But other days he almost "passes" for "normal"whatever that is? :confused3

And on some days I seem to walk just great. Other days I look like a drunken sailor only I hope cleaner and smell better. I have neighbors whose hobby is commenting on the state they think my disabilities are. Unfortunately with Lupus and Crohns the way I'm walking usually has nothing to do with how I'm feeling but I've learned to keep my mouth shut.

One story I've kept in my heart for years and it came from Sue M. She talked about her daughter getting a nice rest on a bench out of her wheelchair. The change in positions was refreshing for her (and occasionally necessary). Her daughter's thin little legs were swinging slightly as I think either Sue or her husband had just settled her on the bench. Then comes along the ill informed Disney goer who accuses the family of trying to cheat the system (with their expensive child wheelchair:confused3). I don't even remember what Sue said or did I just know it was classy as only Sue can be. Sue is never a pushover but she always seems kind and infinitely patient.

I guess no matter the disability I for one am on your side as long as it is reasonable and everything here usually is.

I told my son a long time ago his life will be harder than others but that will never stop me from trying to make it easier.
:goodvibes:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:
Thank you, for your kind heart.

I was shocked and just looked at them. Then I cried.