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Tunseeker1
04-10-2012, 09:14 PM
I have some questions on small DVC contracts.

1. Direct.
I spoke to a rep that said that for an initial contract I can purchase a 50 point contract at current pricing and they would give me the 2011 and 2012 points right away.

2. Resale.
How often do small contracts come up for resale?
How long do they take to sell and what kinds of pricing?
How often do they make it through the ROFR?


I have offers on 2 contracts right now waiting on ROFR, and I am worried about them making it and how often I can get more of them at decent pricing.

If they don't make it past Disney, I don't know if i should just purchase direct or keep trying.

xstitches
04-10-2012, 09:18 PM
I just made it through ROFR today on 2-50pt contracts with BCV.

Kidanifan08
04-10-2012, 09:33 PM
Small contracts come up not infrequently, but you have to watch for them on a daily basis. Contracts for under 100 points don't last long. Often it seems like they are gone within a day or two. They tend to sell for a higher price, so they usually pass ROFR. We purchased AKV 50 pt and 55 pt add-ons last year and both passed. Both were listed in the AM on the day I bought them and there were other 50 pointers listed the same day that were sale pending at the end of the day.

Some people have suggested calling the major resellers and getting on a list to be called when the small contracts come in. Some of the small resales may not even make it to the postings, as they are purchased when they come in to the resellers. I don't know that this as fact, but have read it on other threads about purchasing resale.

nunzia
04-11-2012, 08:18 AM
I'm just amazed that you can buy a direct initial contract of 50 points when not long ago initial purchases had to be 160 points and I went through all kinds of hoops to get my contracts in small chunks..:)

emilymad
04-11-2012, 02:28 PM
Typically how much more do smaller contracts go for? 30% more? I looked at the ROFR thread but there aren't that many recent small contracts listed.

disneynutz
04-11-2012, 08:48 PM
We own 26 contracts and the majority are 50 pointers purchased years ago before the price hikes. Like anything supply and demand will set the price. The other benefit is that you can sell off 1 or 2 contracts should your needs decrease and 50 point contracts sell fast.

Disney isn't giving you anything, you are buying 2011 points because they are selling you a 2011 contract.

Take the time to learn about UY and all of the rules and policies that will affect your membership.

:earsboy: Bill

permavac
04-14-2012, 12:50 PM
Typically how much more do smaller contracts go for? 30% more? I looked at the ROFR thread but there aren't that many recent small contracts listed.

I can only speak to my case - I am in ROFR for 2 small contracts. The 50-point BWV I calculated that I paid approx 30% more than the $50 price/point you might be able to get for a higher point contract. For my OKW 75-point I calculated that I paid 10% more than a possible $50 price/point you might be able to get for higher points. So in my case, the range was from 10% to 30% more. Hope that helps.

Terri

Tunseeker1
04-22-2012, 09:19 PM
I can only speak to my case - I am in ROFR for 2 small contracts. The 50-point BWV I calculated that I paid approx 30% more than the $50 price/point you might be able to get for a higher point contract. For my OKW 75-point I calculated that I paid 10% more than a possible $50 price/point you might be able to get for higher points. So in my case, the range was from 10% to 30% more. Hope that helps.

Terri

What was the total cost per point when you figured in closing and dues?

permavac
04-22-2012, 09:30 PM
What was the total cost per point when you figured in closing and dues?

About $63 per point for the OKW one - Disney took that in ROFR. About $80 per point for BWV - still waiting to hear on that one.

Terri

Tunseeker1
04-22-2012, 09:32 PM
About $63 per point for the OKW one - Disney took that in ROFR. About $80 per point for BWV - still waiting to hear on that one.

Terri

Sorry about the ROFR.

permavac
04-22-2012, 09:36 PM
Sorry about the ROFR.

Thanks. That's life. Fingers x'd for the BWV ones - hopefully I paid enough to make them not interested in that one ;)

Terri

JimMIA
04-22-2012, 09:37 PM
I have some questions on small DVC contracts.

1. Direct.
I spoke to a rep that said that for an initial contract I can purchase a 50 point contract at current pricing and they would give me the 2011 and 2012 points right away.This sales pitch is typical of the timeshare industry -- it's not technically a LIE, but it's certainly not the truth either.

You will get 2011 points if you buy during the 2011 Use Year for your contract. The developer is required by law to give you those points, because you are PAYING for them. You are getting absolutely NOTHING for free -- you're just getting what you are purchasing.

But they'll try to con you into believing you're getting something for nothing.

It's a tactic that should tell you to watch your back.

ELMC
04-22-2012, 11:13 PM
One thing to consider is that closing costs are more per point on smaller contracts. A $325 closing cost on a 50 point contract adds $6.50 to the cost of each point whereas a $425 closing cost on a 150 point contract adds only $2.83 to the cost of each point. There is definitely an economy of scale at work there.

Tunseeker1
04-22-2012, 11:14 PM
I posted this somewhere else and decided to post it here



When everyone talks about the price savings in resale I tend to cringe. I understand that there are deals to be found, but they are not as great as it seems.

First look for a 50 point contract at the resort you want. They are bought very quickly and for a premium.
The closing costs on 50 points work out to about $9 a point.
A lot of contracts do not have points for the current UY included(2011 for some) and you have to pay the dues up front in full.

The direct contracts are for current UY and the dues are pro-rated based on how much time is left of the year.

When you look at the 50 and under contracts that are out there and figure out what the cost is it opens your eyes a bit on the smaller contracts.

I looked at a SSR contract which is pending for reference (55@$67).
It has no points for 2012 on a Feb UY, and it works out to be $73 a point with closing costs figured in. If you wanted to use 55 points in 2012 for a trip you would have to rent points for about $12 a point(again an example) for a total of $85 a point.

SSR sells for $105 a point from Disney, so you save about $30 a point if you want to use 2012 points, but the total savings is about $1500 on that contract.

Direct he got points with a Dec UY with 2011 points and 2012, so he has 150 points to go on vacation in December. With that contract he would have had 55 points so rental would have been $1160.

Total Prices in this example:
Resale with closing costs and rental cost to fund a 150 point trip in December is $5204, and you wait about 2 months to find out.
Direct with closing is $5317 and he already booked the trip.

Total Saving for Him in this example $113

I chose a contract as an example that sold within hours of being posted (I was trying to get him a small contract), that he could not get.

When you start to look at other contracts that are out there SSR might go for $80 a point, and other resorts may not make it in ROFR so you have to start the process over.

Its just another level of thought when pricing direct vs. resale

ELMC
04-22-2012, 11:39 PM
I posted this somewhere else and decided to post it here



When everyone talks about the price savings in resale I tend to cringe. I understand that there are deals to be found, but they are not as great as it seems.

First look for a 50 point contract at the resort you want. They are bought very quickly and for a premium.
The closing costs on 50 points work out to about $9 a point.
A lot of contracts do not have points for the current UY included(2011 for some) and you have to pay the dues up front in full.

The direct contracts are for current UY and the dues are pro-rated based on how much time is left of the year.

When you look at the 50 and under contracts that are out there and figure out what the cost is it opens your eyes a bit on the smaller contracts.

I looked at a SSR contract which is pending for reference (55@$67).
It has no points for 2012 on a Feb UY, and it works out to be $73 a point with closing costs figured in. If you wanted to use 55 points in 2012 for a trip you would have to rent points for about $12 a point(again an example) for a total of $85 a point.

SSR sells for $105 a point from Disney, so you save about $30 a point if you want to use 2012 points, but the total savings is about $1500 on that contract.

Direct he got points with a Dec UY with 2011 points and 2012, so he has 150 points to go on vacation in December. With that contract he would have had 55 points so rental would have been $1160.

Total Prices in this example:
Resale with closing costs and rental cost to fund a 150 point trip in December is $5204, and you wait about 2 months to find out.
Direct with closing is $5317 and he already booked the trip.

Total Saving for Him in this example $113

I chose a contract as an example that sold within hours of being posted (I was trying to get him a small contract), that he could not get.

When you start to look at other contracts that are out there SSR might go for $80 a point, and other resorts may not make it in ROFR so you have to start the process over.

Its just another level of thought when pricing direct vs. resale

I appreciate what you are saying, but I think you should remember that it is only one example of what can happen. Somebody out there really wanted this contract and did not seem to care about the cost in acquiring it. You can't win in those situations. However, I would suggest that this was not a good deal for the buyer and does not represent the majority of resale contracts out there.

If you look at the ROFR thread, you will see that the last two documented small contracts for SSR sold for $50 and $57 (a 65 pointer and a 100 pointer respectively). They contained most or all of the 2011 points and represent a huge savings over buying direct.

My point is, I don't think it's fair for you to use one contract that someone clearly overpaid for as an example of how resale and direct can be comparable in price. Although that was somewhat true in the case you provided, I think that this is the exception and certainly not the rule.

Tunseeker1
04-23-2012, 12:17 AM
I am using that contract because it is a REAL situation that I just worked on for someone using the contracts that are for sale right now.

If I could get the prices someone else paid in the past then I would love it, but I can't.

I know now that many small contracts never make it to the listings, so that makes the listed contracts second choice at best.

I could figure out a lot of different ways to make one or the other look better, but I only have so many options to look at. Just knowing that a seller wants too much money doesn't make the price cheaper. Knowing that the price is too high doesn't get you points when you want to go on vacation this year.

nunzia
04-23-2012, 07:53 AM
Wouldn't Disney closing costs change that scenario also? I know Disney used to not charge closing costs on their contracts and I was disappointedwhen they chose to start.

Tunseeker1
04-23-2012, 08:41 AM
Closing costs on 50 points is about $65.

emilymad
04-23-2012, 09:04 AM
Closing costs on 50 points is about $65.

Through Disney?

What are they resale? The $325 mentioned above?

ELMC
04-23-2012, 10:18 AM
Through Disney?

What are they resale? The $325 mentioned above?

That depends on the broker and the closing company they use. The Timeshare store advertises closing costs as low as $322 whereas I believe Fidelity's minimum closing costs are $425. It varies.

ELMC
04-23-2012, 10:20 AM
I am using that contract because it is a REAL situation that I just worked on for someone using the contracts that are for sale right now.

If I could get the prices someone else paid in the past then I would love it, but I can't.

I know now that many small contracts never make it to the listings, so that makes the listed contracts second choice at best.

I could figure out a lot of different ways to make one or the other look better, but I only have so many options to look at. Just knowing that a seller wants too much money doesn't make the price cheaper. Knowing that the price is too high doesn't get you points when you want to go on vacation this year.

I understand what you are saying and I am not doubting that it was a real situation. What I am saying is that it is a poor example of what happens (a stripped contract going for above top dollar) and that you should not lose hope. Small contracts come up frequently and yes, they sell frequently. Just know that there are better deals to be had, you just have to be patience. That's the cost of buying resale I suppose.

permavac
04-23-2012, 10:44 AM
I am using that contract because it is a REAL situation that I just worked on for someone using the contracts that are for sale right now.

If I could get the prices someone else paid in the past then I would love it, but I can't.

I know now that many small contracts never make it to the listings, so that makes the listed contracts second choice at best.

I could figure out a lot of different ways to make one or the other look better, but I only have so many options to look at. Just knowing that a seller wants too much money doesn't make the price cheaper. Knowing that the price is too high doesn't get you points when you want to go on vacation this year.

So what happens when you take my data (50-point BWV resale contract) against your SSR example? Could that maybe equal things out in your mind? That's another real example. Don't get me wrong - you are correct - I am always amazed when I see that higher than 25 points contracts that are stripped actually get buyers, but so are most people on these boards. When I was buying in 2008 the biggest admonishment on here was don't buy a stripped contract. If you are picking up that mantra to warn unsuspecting buyers, then I understand because people really should do the math to see if a contract is a good deal. I still don't have a problem with a buyer focusing on the actual price though - if they have considered all their options. I did buy a stripped contract initially ;) but the layout was only $2K and the next best (with points) was $500+ more that I just didn't have - I wanted to pay cash and canceled my 3rd vacation of the year to buy the points instead.

Terri

Tunseeker1
04-23-2012, 11:03 AM
So what happens when you take my data (50-point BWV resale contract) against your SSR example? Could that maybe equal things out in your mind? That's another real example. Don't get me wrong - you are correct - I am always amazed when I see that higher than 25 points contracts that are stripped actually get buyers, but so are most people on these boards. When I was buying in 2008 the biggest admonishment on here was don't buy a stripped contract. If you are picking up that mantra to warn unsuspecting buyers, then I understand because people really should do the math to see if a contract is a good deal. I still don't have a problem with a buyer focusing on the actual price though - if they have considered all their options. I did buy a stripped contract initially ;) but the layout was only $2K and the next best (with points) was $500+ more that I just didn't have - I wanted to pay cash and canceled my 3rd vacation of the year to buy the points instead.

Terri


Your example doesn't equal out in my mind. I just get tired of everyone saying that resale is always a better way to go.

When you are trying to go on vacation and you are a person that is not a member, direct might make sense.

I put 4 offers in on small contracts for my friend. (Some before they actually hit the listings pages) not one of them was accepted at what I thought was a fair offer. I had a small contract in ROFR when the seller backed out.

These things do not equal warm and fuzzy.

I am saying that not all small point contracts are worth it resale,I started a topic asking about resale contracts because I believed that resale is the way to go, and I never really looked into the smaller contracts.

When I was on my journey to help someone get a membership I found new information which changed the rules on small contracts for me.

permavac
04-23-2012, 11:21 AM
...I just get tired of everyone saying that resale is always a better way to go.

When you are trying to go on vacation and you are a person that is not a member, direct might make sense.

I put 4 offers in on small contracts for my friend. (Some before they actually hit the listings pages) not one of them was accepted at what I thought was a fair offer. I had a small contract in ROFR when the seller backed out.

These things do not equal warm and fuzzy...

I understand now - you are just venting. Yes - resale can be a very frustrating experience and that's before you even get to ROFR. Even after, once you do get through, the title companies can hold it out for weeks longer. We all have to do what's right for us - there are plenty of instances where I would rather pay for convenience. Buying direct is not a bad way to go and it is, hands down, the easiest.

...I am saying that not all small point contracts are worth it resale...

True!

Hope you get the contract you're looking for.

Terri

JimMIA
04-23-2012, 11:53 AM
I am using that contract because it is a REAL situation that I just worked on for someone using the contracts that are for sale right now.

If I could get the prices someone else paid in the past then I would love it, but I can't.Couple of things. First of all, there is often a fairly wide gap between the listing price you see on a broker's website and the actual selling price.

Second, if you look at the ROFR thread, you will find several years of sales history reflecting what contracts actually SOLD for, and also whether or not they cleared ROFR.

Knowing that the price is too high doesn't get you points when you want to go on vacation this year.Considering what may or may not happen in the next 8 months is one of the fundamental mistakes people make. Don't let shortterm considerations influence any timeshare purchase. The purchase works longterm or it doesn't work at all.

Buying because of something it does for you in near term is almost always a mistake.

KAT4DISNEY
04-23-2012, 01:19 PM
Your example doesn't equal out in my mind. I just get tired of everyone saying that resale is always a better way to go.



No advice will fit every situation and it's up to each to evaluate what is best for their individual circumstances. But the general advice that resale is best from a financial perspective is usually correct.

Tunseeker1
04-23-2012, 04:43 PM
I wanted to thank everyone for their input on this.

I started this thread because I was trying to help someone become a member after they thought buying is a good idea.

I went to the listings for the 4 resellers I think are the big players I the market and chose to put offers in on some of them. Some of the offers were based on historical sales data and using common sense regarding the use of the membership for this year and going forward.

I was not as lucky as people appear to be when buying small contracts.

I came back to this thread to discuss what I found out, and what happened for a membership.

I have been told that the data and numbers in my examples are either wrong or can only be used for a very narrow purchase window. I have had folks tell me that I must be doing something wrong in not finding the deals that were around years ago for contracts I cannot get.

When someone tells me that the pricing on a listing is not what it is going to sell for, after I bid on the property, I question the base of knowlage for the answer.
I have looked at all the contracts 5O points and under that are currently open for offers.

I am not venting, not angry or I this going to change anything about my life, but I don't understand how so many people cannot understand that every purchase is unique and that what I was trying to do is not what is always the best.

Even after all the time I have spent on this someone will still say that resale is the better way to go.

Missyrose
04-23-2012, 05:03 PM
I wanted to thank everyone for their input on this.

I started this thread because I was trying to help someone become a member after they thought buying is a good idea.

I went to the listings for the 4 resellers I think are the big players I the market and chose to put offers in on some of them. Some of the offers were based on historical sales data and using common sense regarding the use of the membership for this year and going forward.

I was not as lucky as people appear to be when buying small contracts.

I came back to this thread to discuss what I found out, and what happened for a membership.

I have been told that the data and numbers in my examples are either wrong or can only be used for a very narrow purchase window. I have had folks tell me that I must be doing something wrong in not finding the deals that were around years ago for contracts I cannot get.

When someone tells me that the pricing on a listing is not what it is going to sell for, after I bid on the property, I question the base of knowlage for the answer.
I have looked at all the contracts 5O points and under that are currently open for offers.

I am not venting, not angry or I this going to change anything about my life, but I don't understand how so many people cannot understand that every purchase is unique and that what I was trying to do is not what is always the best.

Even after all the time I have spent on this someone will still say that resale is the better way to go.
My question is: If you made all those offers on resale contracts that were turned down, did any of the owners counter-offer? And were you bidding below asking price? I'm just wondering because you're willing to pay a premium ($100+) to go direct and just get the points, then perhaps bidding asking price or just above could get you the resale contract you were originally after.

fmer55
04-23-2012, 05:53 PM
Couple of things. First of all, there is often a fairly wide gap between the listing price you see on a broker's website and the actual selling price.

Second, if you look at the ROFR thread, you will find several years of sales history reflecting what contracts actually SOLD for, and also whether or not they cleared ROFR.

Considering what may or may not happen in the next 8 months is one of the fundamental mistakes people make. Don't let shortterm considerations influence any timeshare purchase. The purchase works longterm or it doesn't work at all.

Buying because of something it does for you in near term is almost always a mistake.

I would only buy resale, never, ever would i buy direct. That being said i would just like to point out the rofr boards are not a fair example of what is going on out there. There are many, many contracts that sell for much higher than the ones that make our boards. The people that come in here, IMO, myself included, are ONLY looking for the best deal we can possibly make and would never pay an asking price. And if we did pay a little higher than we wanted we would not be advertising that we became impatient and paid a higher price to sooth our wants. We are egotistical as a group and there are many, many, A-personalities in here, again, myself included. Of course i have no data to substatiate this, but i would be willing to wager that for every on of us bottom feeders, there is a contract that goes for close to asking price:stir:

permavac
04-23-2012, 06:09 PM
...but i would be willing to wager that for every on of us bottom feeders, there is a contract that goes for close to asking price:stir:

Close to asking price? I paid asking price! :rotfl: I admitted it too, so I guess I don't have such a big ego ;) I was outbid on a 50-point BCV contract about a week before the BWV contract came up at Fidelity. I was determined to not be outbid again. I called Sharon and told her I wanted to make a full price offer. I decided that if I wanted the BWV contract, I was going to have to pay full price and I was very willing to - this was a loaded contract and I still saved money compared to getting a 50-pt contract direct from Disney. Incidentally - I used 3 data points to make my full-priced offer: 1. I know how quickly small resale contracts go and that they go for higher prices. 2. I had already been outbid on another contract that I offered close to full price, but not quite. 3. The ROFR thread does lead people to believe that you shouldn't make full price offers so I figured I was probably the only one doing it on that contract.

Would I offer full price for a larger point contract? No - I will use the ROFR thread to guide my offer and would shoot for a new all-time low :woohoo: But, small resales are what they are... And of course, I haven't passed ROFR yet...

Terri

Tunseeker1
04-23-2012, 06:57 PM
I bid full price on one and seller backed out then listed it higher then I had offered for a loaded contract. It was only listed for about 10 mins when I called. The seller found out about some taxes and raised the price on the contract.

I bid on a stripped hhi contract that was stripped for 2 a point below. Listed for $60 a point plus 9 a point in closing. You can buy hhi direct for $80 a point and get points to use now.

I bid on another contract that has been on the market for almost 2 years and was turned down flat over paying dues on 2010 points that were going to expire before I could ever close with a Minh of ROFR.

ELMC
04-23-2012, 08:09 PM
Ok, so I'm glad that you say that you're not angry or anything...that's a good thing. I have some thoughts about your post and I guess I should also preface my comments by saying that I'm not angry either. It may seem like I'm arguing with you, but in truth what I am doing is simply disagreeing with you. And it's all with the idea of helping you reach your goals. I'm not looking for any fights. :)



I have been told that the data and numbers in my examples are either wrong or can only be used for a very narrow purchase window. I have had folks tell me that I must be doing something wrong in not finding the deals that were around years ago for contracts I cannot get.

With all due respect, the numbers I used were from February of this year. And we're not saying you're doing anything wrong per se, but the fact is that people out there are getting these good deals, and you are not. Perhaps a reexamination of your methods is in order?

I have looked at all the contracts 5O points and under that are currently open for offers.

Perhaps that is part of your problem. Many people who are able to snag smaller contracts do so before they ever hit the open market. Others grab them literally within minutes.

I don't understand how so many people cannot understand that every purchase is unique and that what I was trying to do is not what is always the best.

Again, with all due respect, I think that is what a lot of people responding to your posts have been saying. Every purchase is unique. Please consider the possibility that your experience is an outlier, and not ours. My momma always told me, if one person doesn't agree with you, it's them. If everybody doesn't agree with you...it's you.

Even after all the time I have spent on this someone will still say that resale is the better way to go.

Direct prices are fixed and resale prices fluctuate. If you are looking for a low price, resale is the way to go. Not every contract, mind you, just the right one. If you have other considerations, maybe resale isn't the way to go. It seems to me that you would rather prove your point than be successful. If you're going to stick with that mentality, it could prove difficult to get what you want. I wish you the best.

Tunseeker1
04-23-2012, 08:38 PM
I understand what you are saying about every situation and all, but no One seems to understand that I was presented with a limited window to work in for a contract. Its not for me so I can only do so much.

I get the listings before they are released into the wild, I know what a good deal for me would be (I ended up making an offer at AKV that's in ROFR right now).

I was just saying that not all contracts resale are a good deal. Many people still say that resale is the only way to go, and I disagree. When I show you what I used to figure this out, I keep getting told that I must be doing something wrong.

I think that some things have changed since everyone assumed resale is a better way to go.

1 if everyone says that small contracts go for more money per point, the sellers will expect to get anything they want.
2. Sellers think that everyone wants small contracts because they are cheap so they can get what they want.

With Disney opening up 50 point new contracts to new members, the resale pricing might need to adjust. $450 in closing and 100% of dues is adding a lot to the cost per point of smaller contracts that may not make ROFR.

Look at the listings right now and find me a small contract that passes muster.

AKV for $90 a point $450 in closing and dues works out to $107ish a point
Savings of like $300 total is not a good deal

ELMC
04-23-2012, 08:53 PM
I understand what you are saying about every situation and all, but no One seems to understand that I was presented with a limited window to work in for a contract. Its not for me so I can only do so much.

Well if time is your enemy, then you are in trouble. The key to getting a good resale deal is patience. So I see your point there.

I get the listings before they are released into the wild, I know what a good deal for me would be (I ended up making an offer at AKV that's in ROFR right now).

Good luck!

I was just saying that not all contracts resale are a good deal. Many people still say that resale is the only way to go, and I disagree. When I show you what I used to figure this out, I keep getting told that I must be doing something wrong.

I would be wary of anyone who uses words like "always", "never" and "the only way". So I agree with you there. As far as what you did wrong, it was simply your timing. You're trying to buy a small contract at a time where the supply is short. Not really wrong, but definitely problematic.

I think that some things have changed since everyone assumed resale is a better way to go.

Perhaps. Demand is quite high for smaller contracts.

1 if everyone says that small contracts go for more money per point, the sellers will expect to get anything they want.

The majority, yes. You need to find that one seller who just wants to dump.

2. Sellers think that everyone wants small contracts because they are cheap so they can get what they want.

True.

With Disney opening up 50 point new contracts to new members, the resale pricing might need to adjust. $450 in closing and 100% of dues is adding a lot to the cost per point of smaller contracts that may not make ROFR.

That is absolutely correct. But this is a new development and it will take the market awhile to adjust. I don't think the majority of the people out there are aware of this change in policy. I still haven't seen anything official on it either, just what I've read on the DIS.

Look at the listings right now and find me a small contract that passes muster.


There are a couple OKW and OKW extended contracts out there that can be potentially negotiated down to a good deal.

AKV for $90 a point $450 in closing and dues works out to $107ish a point
Savings of like $300 total is not a good deal

Agreed. But eventually you will find someone who will sell you that contract for $70 or $75 per point, or pay the closing, or waive mf reimbursement. Again it all comes down to how much time you have. As time passes the odds that any event will occur approaches 1:1.

I guess the point you're trying to make is that going resale isn't a no brainer on a small contract, and I would agree with that. But I still say that the potential for something great exists, if you have the time and resources. If not, buy direct and just get it over with. You'll probably have the benefit of snagging somebody's resale through ROFR. :rotfl:

As an aside, is there any reason why your friend is not considering a less competitive 100 point contract? More supply, less demand, greater negotiating power, closing costs amortized over more points...in a lot of cases you can get double the points for only 50% more money. Just a thought.

Tunseeker1
04-23-2012, 09:16 PM
It's 100% about money out of pocket.

After spending about $8000 on his last Disney trip and another trip coming up later this year he is broke right now for dvc money.

He ended up with 50 points at Vero at $75 a point. 50% deposit 12 months at 4.9% interest.

Out of pocket was like 1800. Payment is about 160 a month

Kidanifan08
04-23-2012, 09:59 PM
I have two small resales and one currently in ROFR. My first experience with the resale world was pre-March 20, 2011, and there seemed to be a flurry of resale activity in those weeks before the deadline. I got sucked into that madness and bought a 50pt resale for asking price -- AKV $85/pt. I think the closing costs were around $300, which makes the purchase $91/pt. At the time, I think AKV was going for $115 or $120 direct, so I saving $25-30/pt was still a good savings in my mind. The resale that I purchased was a different UY than our main AKV contract, which has not been ideal, but we have been able to make it work.

Our second resale purchase was just a few months after we closed on the first resale. It was 55pt at AKV in our original contract UY and I paid the asking price of $79/pt and the closing was $350, making the cost about $86/pt. This one came with some banked and previous year points at no added cost, so I felt good about the purchase. Again, I saved over what it would have cost to buy direct.

I now have a small AKV contract at ROFR. I was able to get $4/pt less than the asking price. This one also comes with some banked points at no additional cost and the closing costs are around $425.

I did not get the greatest deal on the first two and the last one is decent. The contracts all met my needs at the time of purchase, so I see the closing costs as an "opportunity cost" rather than a buy-in cost. I am willing to throw closing into the price per point, as I think it is appropriate. I have paid MF's on all of the current UY points that I have purchased via resale, and I don't think it is reasonable to calculate that into your price per point expenses -- MF's are MF's and you have to pay for them for the rest of the contract, so I don't consider them a buy in cost.

I watch the posted resales regularly, and it is rare to see a <100 pt contract listed for a "steal". And I do think they get asking price (or close to it) because some people just need a few more points and they are willing to pay that price vs. the price of buying direct. They also don't seem to last long, so it seems to be working for the sellers. Who knows, I may try to unload that 50pt contract in the different UY someday and I will hold out for top dollar because I don't really need to get rid of it, I just want to. Somebody will come along who is just looking for a few more AKV points and buy it.

The great deals seem to be the 160+ point contracts. Most of the time, the </= 100 pointers are going to be a win for the seller, but the buyer will get what they were looking for -- a few more points to work with at a price that is lower than DVC direct.

ELMC
04-23-2012, 11:10 PM
It's 100% about money out of pocket.

After spending about $8000 on his last Disney trip and another trip coming up later this year he is broke right now for dvc money.

He ended up with 50 points at Vero at $75 a point. 50% deposit 12 months at 4.9% interest.

Out of pocket was like 1800. Payment is about 160 a month

None of this is making sense to me anymore. I find it difficult to believe that someone who comes across as cost conscious as you would advocate buying a resort that has, by far, the highest annual maintenance fees of all the DVC properties. (And notice that I said "DVC" properties and not "Disney" properties, because it may not even get you on site).

IMO this purchase needs to be rethought from the beginning. If your friend has $8,000 to spend on a Disney vacation, surely he can afford more than 50 points at Vero Beach. If he has an upcoming trip planned, why can't he reallocate some of that money towards the purchase of DVC and use it for lodging. If he has an appetite for $8,000 vacations, how is 50 points going to do anything for him at all? Finally, if he's that strapped, why is he buying DVC in the first place? I'm not trying to be mean, but this deal has buyer's remorse written all over it. :sad2:

I'm beyond confused. Somebody please help me. :confused3

Tunseeker1
04-23-2012, 11:52 PM
He was at Disney and saw the model.
Then he saw the big price at the bottom of the direct price for BLT.
Google Dvc resale.
Find out that you can get Vero for $40 a point.
40x100 points is 4000

Then he asks me about how to buy for less then 16 grand.
I make some offers and get turned down.
I tell him about direct pricing.
He buys 50 points at Vero.

Last vacation for him was 9 days long because it somehow seemed like a better value at a mod with dining and tickets.

Staying at Dvc will allow cheaper tickets because of no expire, and better option for ddp.

He went 2 yrs ago and spent almost as much as this trip.

50 points is a toe dip in Dvc. If it works out then he gets more.

KAT4DISNEY
04-24-2012, 12:24 AM
I'm beyond confused. Somebody please help me. :confused3

:confused3

This sounds like a very quick, gotta have it now decision and I'm not understanding the self imposed deadline.

If the question was how to buy in for under $16k there are many, many other options.

If your friend actually wants to stay at WDW and not VB and wants a good deal for under 16k I'd really recommend putting a little more time into learning more about DVC and in looking for a more appropriate contract.

If he wants to stay at VB, wants the 11 month booking window there and has to have it today then ok - go with what you got.

ELMC
04-24-2012, 12:45 AM
Staying at Dvc will allow cheaper tickets because of no expire, and better option for ddp.



How do you figure?

Tunseeker1
04-24-2012, 01:01 AM
The cheaper tickets because when you book a package you pay for all the days I the park. Dvc you buy a 10 day no expire and might only use 4 days in a 7 day trip

JimMIA
04-24-2012, 07:20 AM
None of this is making sense to me anymore.I agree, and also agree with Kat that it sounds like the worst kind fo impulse purchase.

This REALLY sounds like a situation where the friend needs to rescind, take a couple of deep breaths, and then go to school on DVC.

mjc2003
04-24-2012, 07:59 AM
What is confusing to me is that you say above that you made an offer for your friend at AKV for him to use towards his December trip, but you have another thread where you discuss how you just made an offer for YOU at AKV for YOUR Christmas trip. With all due respect, are you sure you're not your friend??

Here is the thread, you can clearly see at the bottom of the conversation that the OP says that he is trying to add on at AKV for himself.


http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2914565

mjc2003
04-24-2012, 08:18 AM
He was at Disney and saw the model.
Then he saw the big price at the bottom of the direct price for BLT.
Google Dvc resale.
Find out that you can get Vero for $40 a point.
40x100 points is 4000

Then he asks me about how to buy for less then 16 grand.
I make some offers and get turned down.
I tell him about direct pricing.
He buys 50 points at Vero.

Last vacation for him was 9 days long because it somehow seemed like a better value at a mod with dining and tickets.

Staying at Dvc will allow cheaper tickets because of no expire, and better option for ddp.

He went 2 yrs ago and spent almost as much as this trip.

50 points is a toe dip in Dvc. If it works out then he gets more.

Most people who spend $8000 on a vacation make their own purchasing decisions. I also don't get why he googled DVC, found Vero for $40, and figured out he could spend $4000 on 100 points, why did he then have to ask you how he could buy in for under $16,000? Hadn't he just figured it out?

If you are really his "friend", you would explain to him that buying VB direct b/c of the low buy in for "his" trip to AKV this December is not a prudent decision b/c of the very high MF's.

Good luck, perhaps a little clarification would help those that are trying to help you?

Tunseeker1
04-24-2012, 08:34 AM
We are both going to be going at the same time.
I have been a member, and I talked to him about resale when he told me they were thinking about it.

I found an akv resale that was a good price so I put in an offer.
The one he was looking at is still listed, they want $90 a point and will not budge.
I found $75 a point and they came down and we had an agreement.

When my wife talked about the beach with his, I am now looking at buying some Vero myself so we can take the kids to the beach when we are at Disney.

I am looking at Saratoga springs points for the treehouse villa now. After having kids you find out quick that you make different kinds of friends. One friend bought a condo in Sarasota just to go down to Florida for a few weeks a year so the kids can go to the beach.

ELMC
04-24-2012, 10:14 AM
The cheaper tickets because when you book a package you pay for all the days I the park. Dvc you buy a 10 day no expire and might only use 4 days in a 7 day trip

When booking a package you do not need to buy tickets for every day of your stay, just what you think you will need. When booking a package you can also get the 10 day no expiration option, not just with DVC. The 10 day no expiration option may NOT be a better value than simply buying park tickets every time you come. Finally, the DDP costs the same regardless of whether you are staying in a Disney hotel or DVC. If you wanted to argue that tickets are cheaper because you get a DVC discount on annual passes, that would've worked.

With all due respect, you have a lot to learn about visiting Disney. I would suggest buying a copy of The Ultimate Guide to Walt Disney World and reading it cover to cover.

permavac
04-24-2012, 10:59 AM
I think I am beginning to understand... maybe? Perhaps your argument is, if I can buy Vero Beach direct from Disney for $75 per point, saving myself tons of time and aggravation, why would I spend equal to or more than that on any other resale? In my case the answer is easy - I don't want Vero Beach. I want BWV and the $65 per point price I paid for it (plus the closing fees and MFs = approx $80 p/p) was worth it for me. You have to compare apples to apples and while you can get VB for $75 per point from Disney (that is the cheapest property they sell), their other properties (other than HHI) go for substantially more, hence the higher resale rates. Also, VB has the highest MFs so you have to take that into consideration as well.

But, all that said, who am I to say what works for someone else? I bought HHI as my first purchase which is not a WDW resort either and I have never had a problem getting my first choice at the WDW properties at 7-months (not saying that historical data is an indication of future results - just stating my experience - but we never go during "high" season either). In taking that into consideration, I can't say that a starter contract for a new member at VB is a terrible idea. It is not that much money for him - sounds like basically the cost of one vacation (and that includes the dues for next year) and, maybe more importantly, he has his points now, doesn't have to waste time and energy on a two month process of ROFR/closing and his initial buy in is cheaper than some of the "more desirable" properties via resale. So good for him.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - small contracts are what they are.

Terri

Tunseeker1
04-24-2012, 11:00 AM
I know quite a bit about Disney and dvc.

I remember watching them building HHI and thinking about the value over staying in hotels.
I remember when there was no resale market for dvc because they only had 2 resorts.
I also remember when dvc got park tickets.

I also know that the people in reservations tend to not tell you about all the options you may have in ticketing. I know that when you book online it sets you up with a ticket for the number of days of your stay no more no less.

Most people do not research a vacation and think "I'll buy extra tickets because I'll come back", they buy what is first offered and don't question.
When you buy like that you spend every possible minute in the parks to get the most for your tickets.
Dvc you know you will be coming back so you plan differently.

Tunseeker1
04-24-2012, 11:05 AM
I think I am beginning to understand... maybe? Perhaps your argument is, if I can buy Vero Beach direct from Disney for $75 per point, saving myself tons of time and aggravation, why would I spend equal to or more than that on any other resale? In my case the answer is easy - I don't want Vero Beach. I want BWV and the $65 per point price I paid for it (plus the closing fees and MFs = approx $80 p/p) was worth it for me. You have to compare apples to apples and while you can get VB for $75 per point from Disney (that is the cheapest property they sell), their other properties (other than HHI) go for substantially more, hence the higher resale rates. Also, VB has the highest MFs so you have to take that into consideration as well.

But, all that said, who am I to say what works for someone else? I bought HHI as my first purchase which is not a WDW resort either and I have never had a problem getting my first choice at the WDW properties at 7-months (not saying that historical data is an indication of future results - just stating my experience - but we never go during "high" season either). In taking that into consideration, I can't say that a starter contract for a new member at VB is a terrible idea. It is not that much money for him - sounds like basically the cost of one vacation (and that includes the dues for next year) and, maybe more importantly, he has his points now, doesn't have to waste time and energy on a two month process of ROFR/closing and his initial buy in is cheaper than some of the "more desirable" properties via resale. So good for him.

Terri

Thank you.

KAT4DISNEY
04-24-2012, 12:01 PM
I know that when you book online it sets you up with a ticket for the number of days of your stay no more no less.y.

It defaults to it, but it is not the only option. And you can add the park hopper and non-expiring right there.

Disney and DVC both have many options and they change.

It's interesting that you now have thought about adding beach days to your vacation but I'd ask again if that is what your friend wants. They have come to you for expertise but I'd still disagree that you have set them up for the best DVC options and experience. If you haven't already perhaps you should direct them to the websites to learn more about DVC and then decide. DVC isn't going anywhere - especially a direct VB contract. Cancel that and have them even take at least a week or two to learn more themselves.

DougEMG
04-24-2012, 12:25 PM
I have some questions on small DVC contracts.

1. Direct.
I spoke to a rep that said that for an initial contract I can purchase a 50 point contract at current pricing and they would give me the 2011 and 2012 points right away.

2. Resale.
How often do small contracts come up for resale?
How long do they take to sell and what kinds of pricing?
How often do they make it through the ROFR?


I have offers on 2 contracts right now waiting on ROFR, and I am worried about them making it and how often I can get more of them at decent pricing.

If they don't make it past Disney, I don't know if i should just purchase direct or keep trying.


I'm assuming that you have already done the math and determined that a resale contract is working out to a total $/point cost cheaper than buying direct, otherwise you wouldn't be buying resale.

So the question is how much time are you willing to wait to get a good deal on a resale contract. Are you are short on time because you are going on a vacation and want to use your new point to go on that vacation instead of paying cash? If so just redo the math comparing the direct purchase to the resale + cash vacation price and see which comes out better. Your cash vacation price I would cost out at $10/point based on renting from an owner. So is resale $/point + $10/point still less than buying direct?

As others have said already, DVC is a long term ongoing expense. Timeshare companies stay in business because of people making impulse buys. Take the time to make sure you have thought through your requirements and are going to be happy with what you do.

Good luck with your decision.

ELMC
04-24-2012, 03:03 PM
I know quite a bit about Disney and dvc.

I remember watching them building HHI and thinking about the value over staying in hotels.
I remember when there was no resale market for dvc because they only had 2 resorts.
I also remember when dvc got park tickets.

I also know that the people in reservations tend to not tell you about all the options you may have in ticketing. I know that when you book online it sets you up with a ticket for the number of days of your stay no more no less.

Most people do not research a vacation and think "I'll buy extra tickets because I'll come back", they buy what is first offered and don't question.
When you buy like that you spend every possible minute in the parks to get the most for your tickets.
Dvc you know you will be coming back so you plan differently.

Listen, I'm not going to go back and forth with you. The bottom line is that you come on here asking for help and advice, and anytime somebody says something contrary to what you believe, you argue with them. If you're not going to listen to those with differing opinions, then your outcome is already determined. Best of luck to you.

JimMIA
04-24-2012, 04:40 PM
Listen, I'm not going to go back and forth with you. The bottom line is that you come on here asking for help and advice, and anytime somebody says something contrary to what you believe, you argue with them. If you're not going to listen to those with differing opinions, then your outcome is already determined. Best of luck to you.
It also strikes me as strange that someone with such comprehensive in-depth knowledge of DVC from the dawn of time only joined the DIS this month and has fewer than 50 posts...probably all of them on this thread and others like it.

Missyrose
04-24-2012, 04:59 PM
It also strikes me as strange that someone with such comprehensive in-depth knowledge of DVC from the dawn of time only joined the DIS this month and has fewer than 50 posts...probably all of them on this thread and others like it.

I'm with Jim. Clearly this person never actually wanted help. They just want to :stir:.

Tunseeker1
04-24-2012, 06:20 PM
I did come on here asking for advice.
I received some.

It was that resale will save you money (true)
Small contracts go fast. (true)
Small contracts go for a premium. (true)

I found some information that may differ and I asked why.
Are small contracts worth what people are asking for them (not always)
Are small contracts a smart first purchase resale (maybe)
Are small resale contracts a good value for the discount (not always)

I understand that many people disagree with these things.
I have givin examples of some contracts that can be bought right now and many do not make financial sense to me.
No one that has argued with me can actually show me anything current that makes sense in resale in a small contract.

Other people have posted that some resale contracts may not be the best idea (HHI) because of the exact things I have brought up.

I bought DVC when there were not as many options for purchase or resale.
It was easier then because Disney just bought back everything that was going to be sold.

I am new to this forum. Anyone can see this. You can also see senior members of this forum talk down to new members and tell them that their purchase was not a good purchase because they bought in a different manner or with different reasoning then normal.

I will say again. I am not here to fight, I don't get mad about the Internet because it really isn't my real life, by some of the information does affect my life and I might point it out. This usually gets me into trouble because I tend to point out things I can show someone rather then just repeating back a mantra.

DougEMG
04-25-2012, 12:01 AM
Under the "lowest price thread" there are discussions on how to value and compare different contract on a purely financial basis, I've posted what my own methods that I use are there. Go take a look, see if any of them make sense to you and use them to do your own comparison.

I've only ever bought resale, but I am willing to accept the possibility that there might be a few unusual cases were direct might work out better than resale, but I'm willing to bet that at least 95 % of the time resale is better.

The advice that people have given on making a purchase here is really good.

AllieV
04-25-2012, 08:16 AM
Under the "lowest price thread" there are discussions on how to value and compare different contract on a purely financial basis,.
Do you have a link for this? The search is disabled. Thanks.

mjc2003
04-25-2012, 08:28 AM
I am new to this forum. Anyone can see this. You can also see senior members of this forum talk down to new members and tell them that their purchase was not a good purchase because they bought in a different manner or with different reasoning then normal.


Paranoia aside, you have to understand that you came here with a finite example, based on your "research" of a few resale contracts, and juxtaposed that with years of awareness by some posters. Nobody is telling you not to buy direct, or that you have to buy resale. What people ARE telling you is that resale makes more sense, most of the time, with rare exceptions. That's just a reality. Now, it seems that you want to buy points for a December trip and don't want to wait for ROFR and risk not being able to make a December reservation, so want to buy direct and wanted to come here to have your decision justified. You found a couple of examples, made a few offers, and suddenly have drawn a hypothesis. The truth is, you WILL save money if you are patient and wait for a resale contract that fits your needs. If you don't want to wait (some don't, this is your prerogative), then go right ahead and spend money however you see fit. As Jim said, making a decision with this kind of commitment to satiate the needs of the next 8 months is not prudent, but that doesn't mean you can't do it.

Senior members absolutely do not talk down to anybody. They are kind enough to give real advice. This is a financial commitment, do you want all warm and fuzzy responses agreeing with everything, or do you want to learn what people with far more knowledge than you have to say? I'd like to hear facts. People are not here to argue, but you seem intent on making your point regardless.

Every circumstance is different. If you found a contract that fits your needs both points-wise and cost-wise, then go for it. Ultimately you need to be happy with your decision, we don't. People are here trying to help, believe it or not. I would take the feedback as valuable advice, not antagonism. Learn from what people have to say, don't take it and try to always find a loophole.

Good luck.

chalee94
04-25-2012, 09:15 AM
Do you have a link for this? The search is disabled. Thanks.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2661661&page=140

(and i've kinda given up on the search feature for this site - just go to google and type: "site:disboards.com" plus your search terms...)

DougEMG
04-25-2012, 11:19 AM
Do you have a link for this? The search is disabled. Thanks.

Try this http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?p=44696005#post44696005

madelyn
05-11-2012, 12:42 PM
Found this old thread because hubby and I are possibly interested in purchasing a small DVC contract. Hubby and I sat through our first DVC presentation back when BWV were selling. Should have bought then but did not. Sat through the next presentation about 4 years ago. My sister bought a 160 AKV contract when she went w/ us to the presentation. With 3 kids (one starting college in 4 years), I've always felt that we had greater financial obligations. And we've been able to visit DVC resorts with my sister or back when they were in Interval International, through timeshare exchanges using my sil's timeshare. But, after missing out on the great June Fantasy Cruise deal, hubby wants to become a member mainly for the discounts and other perks. I actually got the cruise email since I am named on my sister's account as an associate member, but we are not able to get the discount. Anyhow, my thought is that it would be best to have the same year use (Dec) as my sister's contract since it would be easier to pool points when we vacation together or if we want to borrow/rent from one another. My thought was that we had to go resale but now I am reading that Disney offers contracts as low as 50 points to new members? Is another option to purchase a "small add on" to my sister's account and would she be able to add us to her original contract?