DEBATE: Busses [Archive] - The DIS Discussion Forums

Lesley

11-07-2002, 11:55 AM

I think Sarangel's point is that if there were a schedule posted, and the schedule was followed, there would be no complaints about wait times. If you knew another bus was not scheduled for an hour, you wouldn't wait. The only factor I can see throwing things off are the times when the busses are full.....it would be rather upsetting to wait 20 min. for a bus, not be able to get on, and then have to wait another 20 min. or so. But I'd assume they'd schedule busses more frequently during those times.

I don't think it's possible to pinpoint one major problem with the bus system, as there are numerous issues that need to be handled. If I'd have to sum it up though....I'd have to agree with Sarangel's statement of "their erratic schedule" because you can never know for sure if another bus is coming soon.

As a person who has stood at an Epcot bus stop for a deluxe resort holding a sleeping 23mo. child for over 40 min. faithfully expecting the whole time that a bus would come soon...I agree with her assessment. Had I known it would be 40 minutes we could have stayed in the park longer, put dd in the stroller, etc....but not knowing was the major problem.

Another Voice

11-07-2002, 12:01 PM

The biggest problem – that the Company treats them as the primary means of moving people instead of just the back-up.

By the way, the busses are supposed to be a sort of scheulde. I was on one once that skipped a stop (my stop) because the driver was late.

WebmasterCricket

11-07-2002, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by Lesley
because you can never know for sure if another bus is coming soon

That's what I was looking for. I could have posted it myself, but I wanted someone else to do it first.

What would you say to a bus system that can tell you exactly (within 15 seconds barring "traffic jams") how long your wait will be on both LED displays at the bus terminals and on your room TV?

Had I known it would be 40 minutes we could have stayed in the park longer, put dd in the stroller, etc....but not knowing was the major problem.

Can you say Fast Pass for the bus system?

I saw a system in action in Las Vegas from a company called CES Wireless Technologies. They had a control server set up so a limo company could track the EXACT location of each shuttle bus they had it set up with (12 or 20 I can't remember). The tracking system isn't all that new, but the AI software that calculates time vs. distance was new. I saw 6 busses come in their local loop (that's what they called it) within 30 seconds of the projected time. The operator said it took them 4 days to get it tuned that closely and he was expecting the software to get within 15 seconds by the end of that week.

He said (granted, I don't know this guy) it was being set up there so they could track the data accuracy to present it to Disney for their bus system (he actually said "transportation system", I was assuming the busses).

Whaddya think?

JC

PKS44

11-07-2002, 12:57 PM

Sounds like a practical improvement to me. Would definitely improve the mood of those waiting. The problem is that they are still not very "magical." Again I undertand the Tokyo buses used are silver streamlined buses with Mickey shaped windows.

Paul

CarolMN

11-07-2002, 01:47 PM

IMHO, the #1 problem with the buses is guests' expectations. Too many take their "hurry up/got to get it done/stressed out/ can't stand to be in a crowd/got to get my $$ worth or else" attitudes and expectations with them on vacation. Those expectations get applied to the buses (and other WDW transportation). If you consider the total number of trips taken on WDW buses, the percentage of longs waits & problems is really very small.

It would be nice to know when a bus was coming, but that wouldn't stop the complaints. We'd still hear complaints about how the schedules weren't acceptable and the waits are too long.

Sarangel

11-07-2002, 01:50 PM

Sorry about the Debate tag, Mr. J Cricket. It's a convention we use around here for those items that aren't rumors. Kinda grey & fuzzy, I know.

The locator for busses sounds good, in theory, but you'd have to factor a bunch of different things in - wheelchair access, stroller loading/unloading, large parties at the stops, traffic, others that I'm sure I'm missing...

I'm sure it would help, if feasible.

Sarangel

raidermatt

11-07-2002, 01:52 PM

Knowing how long it will be until the next bus comes is helpful, but the bottom line is still the frequency.

If the wait is 40 minutes, I think most people would prefer to have a bus in 20 minutes, as opposed to just knowing it will be 40 minutes.

That's not to say the technology would not be helpful. Besides just providing info on when the next bus will arrive, Disney dispatchers could use the info to spot gaps in the "schedule" as they develop. This would allow them to make better decisions about diverting busses, or where to add/remove busses and at what time.

WebmasterCricket

11-07-2002, 02:35 PM

The locator for busses sounds good, in theory, but you'd have to factor a bunch of different things in - wheelchair access, stroller loading/unloading, large parties at the stops, traffic, others that I'm sure I'm missing...

Besides just providing info on when the next bus will arrive, Disney dispatchers could use the info to spot gaps in the "schedule" as they develop. This would allow them to make better decisions about diverting busses, or where to add/remove busses and at what time.

One of the main points on the backend with the new AI software is that it will eliminate almost all dispatcher type activities and program the schedules automatically after a set up period. Remember it's not the locator hardware that's a big deal, it's the backend software.

I'm sure it would help, if feasible.

I know the cost on some of the basic equipment, but the software and system setup would be the major bill. I wouldn't even hazard a guess. Not cheap, but not overly expensive either.

The other side of the coin here is this would make retrofitting all of the rooms with addressable televisions much more desirable. You would gain other benefits from this system that had nothing to do with the bus system.

View your bill on the TV.
Check/make Priority Seating arrangements.
Messaging/email
Allows pay per view movies
Integration with possible new ticket media wink-wink
etc.

JC

WebmasterCricket

11-07-2002, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by Another Voice
By the way, the busses are supposed to be a sort of scheulde. I was on one once that skipped a stop (my stop) because the driver was late.

I always thought thay had to at least slow down so you could jump off?

JC

raidermatt

11-07-2002, 02:58 PM

One of the main points on the backend with the new AI software is that it will eliminate almost all dispatcher type activities and program the schedules automatically after a set up period. Remember it's not the locator hardware that's a big deal, it's the backend software.

So it would only solve the problem of knowing when a bus would arrive, but have no impact on dealing with big gaps that develop due to daily issues?

If that's the case, its ok, but it doesn't solve the problem of what to do when you are waiting for a bus to MGM and its 30 minutes behind schedule...

People say they just want to know when a bus was coming, but the reality is that if the busses never get more than 10-15 minutes apart (maybe 20 in slow times), not knowing when the next one is coming wouldn't be much of a problem. If we could rely on the fact that a bus would be coming in no more than 15-20 minutes, we wouldn't stress so much over when it was going to come.

WebmasterCricket

11-07-2002, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by raidermatt
So it would only solve the problem of knowing when a bus would arrive, but have no impact on dealing with big gaps that develop due to daily issues?

To the contrary, it's designed (or so I was told) to compensate for the daily surges and lulls that plague the system the way it is now. Don't get me wrong, during slow times you will probably get less busses to make up for the cost, but when they are needed they should show up one right after another on time.

I really don't see how it can deal with the massive post-firework dump that parks can generate, but I can tell you for certain, if I see "40 min" I'm going to do something else rather than stand in line.

This was a main control unit I saw and not what the public would see I assume. It was a small green LCD display rather than the larger LED display he spoke of.

JC

DVC-Landbaron

11-07-2002, 06:30 PM

WOW!! Great topic! And I second Sarangel’s thoughts! If they had a regular, posted schedule there would be considerably less anecdotal data that people had to wait "over an hour" for a bus to their desired destination. I know they are supposed to follow a schedule, but I don't believe that they do. I also believe that it changes according to whim, phase of the moon, park attendance or if the big ME feels like it.I’ve complained about this one even before my blinders were ripped off in 1998. And as an aside for Mr. Kidds, Peter and Scoop, the transportation has ALWAYS sucked around WDW! And the current bus system stinks just as bad (if not worse) than ever!!! And for the exact reasons that Sara pointed out. Their erratic schedule.

And I have to disagree with Sir Raider. If the wait is 40 minutes, I think most people would prefer to have a bus in 20 minutes, as opposed to just knowing it will be 40 minutes.I’ll agree that more would be better, BUT I’d certainly settle for a bus every hour IF they stuck to the schedule!

Think about it. You’re going to Italy for Dinner at 7:00 pm. It is 3:00 pm and you’re at Typhoon Lagoon. What time do you pack up and head back to the room in order to take a shower, dress and make it all the way across EPCOT by 7:00? With kids in tow!

Yeah! I know! I’ve been going for thirty years and I haven’t got a clue either!! I’d say pack it in NOW and maybe, if the Disney gods are smiling, we may just make it!! (Of course, if my wife happens to disagree, you can bet that we’ll wind up arriving more than an hour and a half early!!!! Time that she wanted to spend at the wave pool!) Of course if I could absolutely count on an accurate schedule I could plan out the day!!! As it is now – WHO KNOWS!!!!

Now the TV thing sounds great, and it’s certainly a step (a giant step even) in the right direction. But as great as this plan is, it still doesn’t help out with the little dilemma I outlined above. I still don’t know what time to tell the kids to get out of the water!!!

Or what about Lesley? As a person who has stood at an Epcot bus stop for a deluxe resort holding a sleeping 23mo. child for over 40 min. faithfully expecting the whole time that a bus would come soon...I agree with her assessment. Had I known it would be 40 minutes we could have stayed in the park longer, put dd in the stroller, etc....but not knowing was the major problem.I feel your pain!! Been there!! Many, many, many times!!! And I do not like it at all!! (And you’re right!! Leaving EPCOT in the afternoon is HORRIBLE!!!!)

So, while I like it, it only goes half way. But it’s better than nothing!!

--------------------------------

The biggest problem – that the Company treats them as the primary means of moving people instead of just the back-up.I know you said ONLY one, but I couldn’t resist seconding AV’s point as well. I guess reality says the schedule bothers me most, but philosophically this is of the utmost importance!!

PS: One last unrelated thought. I really don't see how it can deal with the massive post-firework dump that parks can generate, but I can tell you for certain, if I see "40 min" I'm going to do something else rather than stand in line.I know!! It’s easy! STOP ENDING THE NIGHT ON AN EVENT LIKE SOME CHEAP CARNIVAL!!!!

Thanks for the opportunity to sound off on this issue!!

Peter Pirate

11-07-2002, 06:45 PM

There you go again LB, grouping a bunch of us together just knowng we'll be 'positive' about the busses...

Well...I am a bus user and yes it is true that I seldom get irritated or angry by the tribulations the system may put me through. I'm on vacation when I'm at WDW and if I'm going to let a 20 minute wait that turns into a 40 minute wait eat me up inside, man I'm going to just quit going.

As for planning, well we don't do much of it. But for our meals we plan specifically to be able to get to and from our destination reasonably. If it can't be done we make other plans. I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

To me there is nothing really good or really bad about the busses. They are what they are and I'd rather have the system as it is instead of driving, but I agree wholeheartedly that the better they can maintain a schedule the better off we all are.
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

raidermatt

11-07-2002, 07:12 PM

I guess I should point out that I personally have not had many issues with bus timing. I don't think I've ever had to wait more than 15, maybe 20 minutes for a bus. My wife did experience close to an hour wait once on our last trip. My buddy and I were playing golf, while our wives did the Spa/shopping thing. I think they were trying to get from DD to the GF, but I'm not sure. What I do know is that after about an hour, one of the other people got on one of the empty or near empty busses going to another destination and told the bus driver they were not budging until he agreed to take them to the GF (or wherever it was).

And he did!

We now refer to this as the "hi-jacking incident".

But other than this, no issues.

I’ll agree that more would be better, BUT I’d certainly settle for a bus every hour IF they stuck to the schedule!
I think conceptually I agree. If the waits are going to be consistently long (say 20+ minutes), then sticking to a consistent schedule with longer intervels would be better.

But I just don't think that would solve the problem for a lot of people and would make it worse for many (because of the greater intervals).

If its once an hour, and I miss the bus, YIKES! I know, the answer is don't be late, but as you said, when you've got kids/friends/etc in tow, "stuff" happens. Using your example, let's say the busess you needed ran on the hour. You'd have to wait for the 4:00 bus out of TL, arrive in your room at 4:20-4:30 or so, and you better have the clan showered/dressed and waiting at the bus stop within 90 minutes.

Of course, you could gather the flock at around 2:30 and get out to the TL bus stop by 3:00, but wouldn't it be better if you just knew you wouldn't have to wait more than 20 minutes for a bus, no matter when and where you showed up?

I realize guaranteeing no more than 15 or 20 minutes is not easy, but that's where I think this new technology could be better used. How many times do we see two or three MK busses arrive within a 10 minute span, with the 2nd and 3rd being nearly empty? If a dispatcher were monitoring all of this, they could divert that 2nd bus onto another route that had developed a gap due to long wheel chair load.

Without adding more busses ($'s and all...), the existing busses could be utilized more efficiently.

DVC-Landbaron

11-07-2002, 07:17 PM

There you go again LB, grouping a bunch of us together just knowng we'll be 'positive' about the busses...WHOA!!! What did I do?!?!? There I go again?!?!?! Bunching together?!?! 'Positive'!?!? What in the heck are you talking about this time!! One of the only non-controversial posts I pen in quite a while and this comes!!?? What gives!!??

As for planning, well we don't do much of it.Well!! Good for you!! I suppose I wouldn’t either if I visited as much as you. Unfortunately I can’t. Sooooo, I have to do a little planning!

So, come on, Peter. Tell me. How would you answer my Typhoon Lagoon to Italy question? Please tell me, because even after thirty years of experience and being a certifiable Disney NUT, I haven’t got a clue!! Do you?

Peter Pirate

11-07-2002, 08:08 PM

Landbaron. Take the Mears shuttle to Orlando's McCoy Airport. Take US AIR flight 535 at 2:15pm connecting in Philadelphia to Rome, Italy, arriving at 12:30 AM.

Just isn't that hard...;)
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

DVC-Landbaron

11-07-2002, 08:47 PM

Peter,

You bust me up!!! :crazy:

But now, how about a real answer!?!?!

Eeyore2U

11-07-2002, 09:00 PM

I have one problem with the busses. Sometimes you can't there from here at night. It bothers me that you have to go to a DTD to get anywhere.

We usually have one long wait a trip. If I only had that happen once every eight or nine days in the real world, mass transit would be a preferred mode.

familyoffive

11-08-2002, 01:15 AM

The biggest problem with the bus syatem at WDW is the lack of consistent information. Bus runs get discontinued and the drivers are not told, leaving guests trying to find out what is going on.
Durind a Jolly Holidays trip 7years ago(?), went o the Empress Lily for breakfast and then waited 2+ hours for a bus, as none were runiing the route to the MarketPlace. Went into the Character shop and had to get them to call security to get people moving. After two seatings at the breakfast, over 200 people wer witing for a bus that didn't run. Tried to board other bus, this is the ONLY time I was ever asked to show a resort ID. The driver attempted to deny the group the ride, but changed his mind when he learned how long and how many had been waiting.

ohanafamily

11-08-2002, 02:37 AM

I was at the BW last April, and there was a CM with a modified Palm Pilot doimg a survey. She told DW and I that they were thinking about doing a version of the GPS thing. She was able to tell us about when the next bus would be there. Mind you, this was only during peak times, and the survey was running most of the week. I do not know what became of the proposed GPS system.

As far as the bust system goes, we all have stories. I think it would be a good idea to have a board on the bus-stop that would give you the aprox time until the next bus.

2 weeks ago we were at the Poly, we had already checked out and had 4 hours to kill. We waited for almost an hour for a DD bus, and decided to play on the monorail; we didn't want to miss our flight.

It seems that I agree... a consistent schedule would be great, and some way to keep the busses from "Bunching Up" especially on the long runs would be helpful.

Planogirl

11-08-2002, 07:06 AM

I can sympathize with LandBaron's TL dilemna since we dealt with something similar during our last trip. Has anyone tried to get to breakfast at Boma while staying at the Allstars? I decided to take a bus to either Animal Kingdom or MGM since the waiting lines are together but neither bus would show up! So I finally did the only logical thing after 25 minutes; take a taxi. I fully intend to take taxis from now on when these difficult transportation problems come up. This costs extra but it's worth it to not deal with the aggravation IMO.

WebmasterCricket

11-08-2002, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by ohanafamily
I was at the BW last April, and there was a CM with a modified Palm Pilot doimg a survey. She told DW and I that they were thinking about doing a version of the GPS thing. She was able to tell us about when the next bus would be there. Mind you, this was only during peak times, and the survey was running most of the week. I do not know what became of the proposed GPS system.

This timing fits right in with what I what I saw.

Think about it. You’re going to Italy for Dinner at 7:00 pm. It is 3:00 pm and you’re at Typhoon Lagoon. What time do you pack up and head back to the room in order to take a shower, dress and make it all the way across EPCOT by 7:00? With kids in tow!

I guess you don't want the actual answer, but the method of calculation:

I don't know a few things such as

1) your hotel (distance vs. time) (hey you could have wasted your points at a non-DVC hotel right)
2) how long it takes you to get ready for dinner with the "tots"
3) do you dawdle at all, such as the wife/husband dragging you into a store on the way to the bus stop for a half-hour gawking event?
4) should we include for incidental detours such as "tot #1" forgetting his/her autographed "Mouse" sticker at the water slide entrance and forcing a retreat back into TL to get it?

If you assume the worst for all of these........it's 3:00????? You're late buddy!

Seriously, only you can figure these things out, but assume you just call this stuff the vacation time factor x or "vtfx".

Your "vtfx" + estimated time on clock in view at TL entrance for the bus to your hotel + bus travel time (you should know this already from your prior experience or a fairly decent guess)

After that, it comes down to planning ahead. If your room TV says busses are currently running in 25 min. intervals to EPCOT and gives a next bus time at your stop, you may need to do a little math, but calculating your future bus of choice should be fairly easy.

It's the "vtfx" that will get you every time. If your particular "vtfx" is in flux all of the time, rent a car, skip the bus for time sensitive events. Our "vtfx" is dead on 95% of the time, so we have few problems with being ready when it's time to be ready.

added: You would have to assume the time of the EPCOT bus while you are at TL, which could burn you pretty bad if they are at 40 min intervals when you get to the hotel instead of your assumption of 20 mins. or whatever. That's part of the "vtfx" too. Unfortunate, but true.

JC

WebmasterCricket

11-08-2002, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by Planogirl
I decided to take a bus to either Animal Kingdom or MGM since the waiting lines are together but neither bus would show up!

This system would eliminate these things from happening in theory. If the clock said "50 minutes", you may have taken the cab without waiting at all and saved those 25 minutes of waiting ahead of time. Not only that, but you would have known this from your room without taking a trip to the bus stop. The software would (again in theory) remove the fear of a full bus too, forcing you to wait for another if you did choose to wait the 50 mins.

JC

WebmasterCricket

11-08-2002, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by thedscoop
The biggest problem is that they basically use only one size bus at all times for all locations.

Smaller shuttle busses might increase labor costs but would certainly be more efficient (and I'd guess energy efficient than driving 40 seaters around property at non-peak times).

Use 10 seater shuttles after dark and during non-peak times.

Are you hoping that "smaller busses"="more frequent on time busses"?

Do the current busses use propane? How much energy would this really save? 1 big bus may = 2 smaller busses as far as the energy goes if I'm reading you right.

I'm probably not though :(

JC

ohanafamily

11-08-2002, 09:29 AM

One more note about busses, A CM Bus driver told us that they had already ordered the new busses for the Pop Century hotel. it should be opening next year.....this was 2 weeks ago...

WebmasterCricket

11-08-2002, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by ohanafamily
One more note about busses, A CM Bus driver told us that they had already ordered the new busses for the Pop Century hotel. it should be opening next year.....this was 2 weeks ago...

New busses or new-to-them-used busses? The reason Tokyo has cool design busses is because they were built for them custom (probably, I've never seen them). Many WDW busses are refurbs from cities all over the US.

At least that's what I heard.

JC

jennymouse

11-08-2002, 09:40 AM

We just returned from a 9 night stay at AKL and found the buses to be excellent...no problems at all. It would be nice to know exactly when a particular bus was coming. On TV in our rooms would be good as well as a board at the resort stops.

For the parks, however, I'd like to see a board inside the park as well as at the stops. This way, if a bus isn't going to be arriving for 40 minutes, we'd know before we walked all the way to the bus stop....we could spend 30 minutes shopping on Main St. then head to the bus stop.

WebmasterCricket

11-08-2002, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by jennymouse
For the parks, however, I'd like to see a board inside the park as well as at the stops. This way, if a bus isn't going to be arriving for 40 minutes, we'd know before we walked all the way to the bus stop....we could spend 30 minutes shopping on Main St. then head to the bus stop.

I'm pretty sure this would be one of the selling points that could make this a possibility. They (Disney) would want you shopping instead of waiting in line-----thus the FastPass system.

JC

ohanafamily

11-08-2002, 11:49 AM

WebmasterCricket

11-08-2002, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by ohanafamily
I was told brand new busses

Did they mention the design type? I know there has been some prototype (new) busses tested in the past with 2 parts for huge loads (cab/trailer) that looked worthwhile, but I don't know what happened to them after the tests.

JC

Lesley

11-08-2002, 12:08 PM

Landbaron, just a bit of a note on our Epcot bus issue....this was not in the afternoon. It was before 9pm, before Illuminations started. We didn't get a bus until after Illuminations was over and everyone who had stayed to watch had arrived at the bus stop. It was the most crowded bus I have ever seen at WDW! Luckily we got a seat because we were near the front of the line. There would have been plenty of time for a bus to pick us up, take us back to AKL, come back, pick up the first batch of Illuminations watchers, take them back to AKL, and then come back again in the time we waited. There were also people who didn't make it onto that bus. If there was ever a time I had wished we had taken the car, it was then. To add insult to injury, there was a whole slew of taxis just sitting there waiting for people to hire them....seemed to me that Disney was encouraging guests to use transportation they had to pay for themselves (and I wouldn't doubt the cab company pays a fee to be allowed to have their cabs there....) We didn't take one, both out of stubborness and the conviction that a bus surely would be along at any second.

But anyway....the new idea sounds very cool....if it actually works the way its supposed to. But I have to say I tend to stay at BWV most often right now because at least we can be somewhat in control of getting to 2 parks! And I hate driving.....and trams!

Dodie

11-08-2002, 01:19 PM

Not enough buses devoted to each resort.

When we were there in October, it felt like there was ONE bus running from each park to each resort. The turnaround time was horrible. We waited over 30 minutes for a ride from AK and even longer than that for a bus from Downtown Disney.

mkandk

11-08-2002, 05:36 PM

Only real problem I have is the crowds after Illuminations or the fireworks at MK. They could/should have enough busses lined up, since they can anticipate the back-up.

But wouldn't it be cool to do something imaginative with the busses?! I love the description of the Tokyo busses! What about putting some of those twinkly lights on the ceilings...I don't want televisions or anything like that, but something that keeps you in the mood. Maybe the floor could be pressure sensitive so that you would see your footprints as you walked.

Sorry, I'm pretty clueless as to cost and technical implementation. But I would like to see the busses become more "magical".

ohanafamily

11-08-2002, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by Mr. J. Cricket
Did they mention the design type?

Not specifically, but I got the impression they were off-the shelf models...
:bounce:

ohanafamily

11-08-2002, 06:54 PM

Also, 2 years ago we had problems at OKW; they were testing a new schedule. I think it was with 1 or 2 less busses. One person waited an hour and a half to go to DD, and missed most of a Cirque Du Soleil show. The next few times we had no problem. Starting this year, it seemed that there were not enough busses... (due to cutbacks?) Specifically DD busses. As far as keeping to a schedule, if you look back a couple of years, I think you will find that there weren't any schedule problems. The difference was 1 or two more busses to a route. I think that this is another place where the cut backs are making us blame other things than what they really are. Ei$ner wanted a 10% cut, took it in the bus service, and we are all looking for the reason it has never worked.

I blame cutbacks....

:bounce:

ohanafamily

11-08-2002, 08:19 PM

I was just reminded by my Darling Bride that we had a meeting with a supervisor in the transportation department during our last trip to WDW. As I was reminded, he told us about the fiasco with the GPS’s on the OKW busses. They installed a trial set on several busses. It seemed that it took 15 minutes for the signal to go from the busses to the satellite to Seattle and back to Florida. It didn’t work well at all, and they were not told beforehand of this time delay. I seem to remember him saying that they were scrapping this project, but I think the company was trying to see about keeping their bid by moving a computer center to WDW. At any rate, this wasn’t the main crux of our meeting so I don’t have any notes on the matter.

micfan

11-11-2002, 01:18 PM

It seems to me what is lacking in this proposed system is some kind of real time data collection of who is waiting to go where. With this type of information it should be possible to automate the the dispatching process to deliver the correct size bus to the correct place, as well as providing feedback as to how long you will have to wait (in a variety of places and formats).

I'm from the camp that it would great to know when the next bus is coming but that waits in excess of 20 minutes should be unacceptable.

The technology is there it just needs to be applied. If GPS doesn't work a system of networked wireless sensors along the bus routes could track the progress of each bus. Something as simple as a turnstile at a bus stop could be used to update the system. Granted the complexity of something like this would preclude it from happinging quickly, but it could be done.

DisneyKidds

11-11-2002, 02:43 PM

What the heck - I'll jump in, especially since I saw my name thrown out there.

Baron, I agree - busses always suck. Always have, always will.

What is the number one problem? The inability to do what Disney want's you to do most is what I see as the #1 problem. Forget erratic schedule, even if they ran like clockwork, it takes too long to get around and, as they say in Maine, 'ya kahnt get thar from here'.

We haven't used a bus since our honeymoon. Even a 20 minute bus stop wait is too long for us. Typhoon Lagoon to (insert resort) on an air conditioned bus in a wet bathing suit - no thanks. Then take a typical Kidds Clan day. Breakfast at the GF, one theme park for the morning, back to the VWL in the afternoon for a swim/nap, off to the BC for dinner, finish the night at another park. Do that on a bus? No way!!! Disney wants you to be mobile, spend money in the restaurants, etc., but transportation between resorts is terrible.

We always get a car. We don't find driving to be a hassle. Using the busses to avoid the 'hassle' of driving, and then haveing to be so unhappy about the busses when they come - that is a hassle. No 40 minute waits standing with a sleeping baby. No hour plus trips. In control of our own destiny, etc. A car works just fine for us - as anti-Magic as it may seem to some.

mkandk

11-11-2002, 03:39 PM

Solar powered busses?:p

fuel cell busses?

Maybe a partnership with Ford or Chrysler, so they could show off some of their new technology.

DisneyKidds

11-12-2002, 08:55 AM

...DScoop disagrees with DK...
Ahh....it's bound to happen once in a while ;). I should note that my disdain for busses is a purely subjective and personal thing.

Yes, busses can be made to be more interesting and unique. However, for this Disney fan it would take a lot more than that to make the Disney bus system fun and pleasureable.

The transportation system as a whole is just too inefficient. Need to get from the CBR to the GF for breakfast? It just takes too long the way the entire transportation system is designed. How about WL to GF, which are very close? Same deal. By the time you take a boat from the WL to the CR, then hop a monorail......I can get there in my comfy rental in one quarter of the time.

EUROPA

11-12-2002, 10:57 AM

Well we just got back from 10 days in Orlando..7 at Disney and just incase your wondering the Bus system is still very bad. All of the problems that people list are still there including the one that gets over looked the most. The "packed -wall to wall- people standing -on top- of you bus". When did standing on a bus become the norm? I don't live in a big city but I would think for saftey reasons it would not be allowed. I guess its cheaper in the long run to operate less busses then to make sure everyone gets a seat and only have to pay settlements when the busses are in accidents? Several times we were on a bus that was packed and had people standing only to find out that we had to make another stop and pick up more people. The drivers kept repeating the buses would hold 71 people. Each time we picked up an additional 3 -4 people but pissed off about 100 when the already full bus pulled up the stop and left them all still standing there. Oh and don't even try to get a bus back to your resort from the AK before 11 am it just won't happen. They don't even stop to pick up resort guest until that time.

DMoss3377

11-12-2002, 11:03 AM

After reading through all of these posts, I have to say that for the most part, we didn't experience the horrible waits times that often when we were there in October. But we stayed at the Yacht Club.

Our friends on the other hand stayed at the All-Stars and were waiting everytime, and waiting unbelievably long waits. But besides the wait, which we all agreed we could deal with IF...there was resort to resort transfers.

We were there for our wedding and honeymoon. If our friend needed to get to our resort or meet us at another resort, it was like mission impossible. They had to wait forever to take a bus to a park, then wait again to hop a bus to our resort, and that's only if they went during the day. When the parks closed, it was a wait to get a bus to DTD and then another wait to get a bus to our resort, etc...and the ride to DTD is not a short one.

And it made no sense to us that there wouldn't be resort to resort transfers considering how many resorts have their own restaurants and attractions. For example, we went to the Poly Luah, had to wait 45 minutes to catch a bus to DTD - passing our resort on the way - only to hop off and wait for the next bus to our respective resorts. Turned the whole trip from Poly to YC into around 2 hours and our friends whole trip was around 2 1/2 hours.

Well, there's my 2 cents.

WebmasterCricket

11-12-2002, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by ohanafamily
They installed a trial set on several busses. It seemed that it took 15 minutes for the signal to go from the busses to the satellite to Seattle and back to Florida. It didn’t work well at all, and they were not told beforehand of this time delay. I seem to remember him saying that they were scrapping this project, but I think the company was trying to see about keeping their bid by moving a computer center to WDW. At any rate, this wasn’t the main crux of our meeting so I don’t have any notes on the matter.

This is not how the system I saw works. I don't even know how this would be possible with a moving vehicle without being off the charts expensive (sat. uplink bandwidth is crazy cash). Down-links are very common (DBS dishes and all GPS tech. for example) because bandwidth isn't an issue. UPlinks however are extremely rare and costly for very little gain.

The technology is there it just needs to be applied. If GPS doesn't work a system of networked wireless sensors along the bus routes could track the progress of each bus. Something as simple as a turnstile at a bus stop could be used to update the system. Granted the complexity of something like this would preclude it from happening quickly, but it could be done.

This is how the one I saw worked. Each bus had a marker route that contained a set # of stations. Each pass of a station from a bus would give a calculation to the server about time/distance so it can calculate a new projected "toa" to the next marker. The past performance DB would compare and project a "toa" to the next stop for display when needed. If the bus is running slow (or fast), the server would know ahead of time and re-calculate the stop's clock accordingly. It was all radio, no sat. tech. used that I know of.

These are most likely the new busses:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid39/p5b15f09780842f58b04134561a3babb0/fd0d727c.jpg

JC

ohanafamily

11-12-2002, 12:00 PM

I think that about 2 years ago they took out the resort to resrt shuttles. I guess the resort to resort demographic isn't worth the resources. I think that they have also removed busses from the park to resort trips. I think that this is why we have been having these problems. Anybody know who to write to?

:bounce:

WebmasterCricket

11-12-2002, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by ohanafamily
I think that about 2 years ago they took out the resort to resrt shuttles.

I didn't know they ever even had these.?.?.?

JC

ohanafamily

11-12-2002, 12:06 PM

If I recall the details, the busses each had a GPS in it. They transmitted thier location that was relayed by radio to a satellite and then down to a server farm in Seatle. The location was relayed back by radio to the various locations it needed to be at. This is mostly simple off the shelf technology, but when you use a major carrier there are bandwidth limitations.

Again, I don't recall all of the details, mainly too long of a delay, and it didn't work well.
:bounce:

ohanafamily

11-12-2002, 12:09 PM

I didn't know they ever even had these.?.?.?

I remember catching a resort to resort shuttle a few years back, transportation was nuch easier then. I think the first round of cutbacks got them.

The next round took out one or more per run.
:bounce:

RIDISNEYLOVERS

11-15-2002, 04:57 PM

To go along with the start of this thread - my #1 complaint would be not place to put your stroller when boarding the bus. The aisles are too narrow to put a stroller through without hitting people with it.

HOWEVER, last week while we were at WDW I did ride on a few new buses that had nice wide aisles and a place to put your stroller. Also the doors were much wider to get on the bus. There weren't many seats, however there was a lot of standing room if need be.

I also agree with many of you that there should be resort to resort buses. There were many occasions where we had breakfast and dinner reservations at another hotel and it is a pain to get from one to another. There are only 5 major hubs to get a resort bus - the 4 theme parks and DTD.

I think if Disney comes up with this "system" of the buses running on a schedule and you "knowing" when the next one will show up will put a lot of people at ease - on vacation!!

One thing that I have always heard and heed to is - ALLOW YOURSELF AT LEAST ONE HOUR TO GET TO YOUR DESTINATION!!

Now to the person about being in TL at 3:00 and having to get to dinner at 7:00 with little ones in tow - leave TL at 3:00 and you should arrive back at your hotel at 4:00 so you will have approximately 1 1/2 to 2 hours to get ready and leave giving yourself an hour to reach your dinner destination. This is my opinon - I know, I know it sounds easier said than done and a lot of wasted time traveling!! Also a little FYI - you could get a bus to the Boardwalk or Beach Club and get in Epcot through the International Gateway - that may be another option but may take more time.

Whatever happens, I just hope Disney does imporve their bus system!!

Lisa

Lesley

11-15-2002, 05:03 PM

Oh, we hit that AK snag ourselves...forgot about that! I think we had to nearly jump on a bus driver, who found someone to take us back to our resort...

Problems, yes....but then again...I don't think the bus systems in most cities are any better.

ohanafamily

11-15-2002, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by RIDISNEYLOVERS
Now to the person about being in TL at 3:00 and having to get to dinner at 7:00 with little ones in tow - leave TL at 3:00 and you should arrive back at your hotel at 4:00 so you will have approximately 1 1/2 to 2 hours to get ready and leave giving yourself an hour to reach your dinner destination. This is my opinon

Dearest Lisa, there is but one flaw in your argument:

Getting from one hotel to another requires a transfer, so One would need to give an hour to get to the transfer stop from the first bus stop, then give another hour to get to the second hotel. Even then, it can take an hour and a half to get to DTD by bus; so make it three hours to be sure;)

:bounce:

Glenn

11-16-2002, 01:38 AM

Last Dec I stayed at CRS & the bus service was great since they didnt share. They also had a direct line to the Boardwalk. It seems since then things have gone downhill. Not having to drive & haveing reasonalbe bus service helps make a vacation. I drive a couple of hrs a day to & from work & its the last thing I want to do on vacation. With all the problems getting to & from DTD nowdays Im going to skip it this Dec. So I will do less shopping. Ill save money, disney will get less. Maybe just a little less pixie dust too.

Tiffany

11-16-2002, 02:52 PM

There is a great post over on the Transportation boards by Chip'n Dale Express. He is a bus driver for Disney and he posted how the system is set up to work. I do not know how to post a link but go over there and take a look. It might answer some of your questions.

We live just outside of Boston and standing on buses and trains during peak travel times are the norm up here. Always has been and always will be. We find the buses at WDW work well if you are going from your resort to one of the four major parks and back. Bus transportation from resort to resort or from resort to DTD and other minor parks and areas is not worth the wait to us. We always rent a car. Our last three trips, 2 at AKL and one at the Dolphin we had no problems with the buses going from our resort to one of the four main parks and back.

ohanafamily

11-16-2002, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by Tiffany
There is a great post over on the Transportation boards by Chip'n Dale Express. He is a bus driver for Disney and he posted how the system is set up to work. I do not know how to post a link but go over there and take a look. It might answer some of your questions.

Here is the URL

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=292049

Chip 'n Dale Express

11-17-2002, 05:19 AM

Originally posted by Mr. J. Cricket
New busses or new-to-them-used busses? The reason Tokyo has cool design busses is because they were built for them custom (probably, I've never seen them). Many WDW busses are refurbs from cities all over the US.

This is a basic summary of Disney's current fleet.

2701-2743 - GMC RTS busses, ranging from 1980-1987. Bought new.
2744 - GMC RTS, 1980, widebody... an oddball.
2745-2780 - GMC RTS busses, ranging from 1979-1981. Bought used from Miami-Dade county, and completely rebuilt by Midwest Bus in 1998. These busses are widebodies, which means they are 102" wide, versus the standard 96" wide. They are also equipped with vertical exhaust stacks. Because they were completely rebuilt, theses busses are in good condition, and only someone who knows whats going on would be able to tell that they are 20+ years old.

4701-4804 - TMC RTS busses, ranging from 1988-1992. Bought new.

All of the above RTS busses use Detroit Diesel 6v92 engines. Disney is working on replacing the older engines with new, cleaner versions of the 6v92, that will eliminate the smoke.

4805-4814 - NovaBUS RTS busses, bought new in 1994. These busses are equipped with Detroit Diesel Series 50 engines, and a vertical exhaust stack.

http://members.aol.com/chipndaleexpress/disneyrts.jpg
http://members.aol.com/chipndaleexpress/rtsinterior.jpg

4815-4832 - NovaBUS LFS busses, built in 2000. Leased.
4833-4861 - NovaBUS LFS busses, built in 2001. Leased.
4862-4888 - NovaBUS LFS busses, currently being built. Expected delivery date of January, 2003. All LFS busses are equipped with Detroit Diesel Series 40 engines with a transmission retarter.

http://members.aol.com/chipndaleexpress/disneylfs.jpg
http://members.aol.com/chipndaleexpress/lfsinterior.jpg

The LFS features a low floor interior. There are NO steps on this bus. This bus is also able to Kneel, and tilt. This means that both the front and rear doors can be lowered by 4", bringing them closer to the ground. Combined with a curb, this can mean near zero depth entry.

Seating our standard floor busses is 45. The most amount of seats that the LFS can accommodate is 39 due to wheel wells. However, Disney elected to increase the aisle space by having the main platform seats on the perimiter. This brings our seating down to 35. Although we eliminated 4 seats, the interior space was increased by quite a bit to allow for strollers and such.

In regards to the SuperBus... (the tractor-trailer setup), I was informed that due to maintenance and safety issues it was permanently discontinued quite a while ago.

In regards to alternate fuels... Disney did test a few alternate fuels awhile ago, however currently, alternate fuel technology is not where it needs to be. In real life... alternate fuel busses end up spending more time in the shop, than on the road. They are very expensive to run and maintain, and are prone to frequent shutdowns. And, in reality, today's diesel engines are 80% cleaner than those of just 5 years ago. With proper maintanance, a diesel engine of today is just as clean as a CNG engine, and is far more reliable and economical.

In regards to theming... Unfortunetly, that is something that we do not have control over. Our wonderful Legal department has put a very tight watch over that. We are not allowed to "Wrap" our busses, and have characters on them. (However, for unbeknownst reasons, outside bus companies are allowed to.) This is what a wrapped LYNX bus looks like (LYNX is Orlando's public transit)

http://members.aol.com/chipndaleexpress/lynx.jpg

We even dabbled with putting Mickey ears on the upper rear tail lights of the new LFS busses (4815), however, we recieved complaints by a religious group that it made Mickey look like the devil. So, we're not allowed to do that, either. Unfortunetly, theming the busses to make them more exciting isn't as possible as we'd like to hope.

In regards to a Bus Timer type system... As great of an idea as it is... unfortunetly, it would not work with how Walt Disney World works. Our system is a very dynamic and ever changing system. (See my other thread for details on MOD and Flex) Even if you could get by the fact that busses are dispatched dynamically on the fly (which means you wouldnt know what bus is going where till it gets there)... you still have to deal with busses don't always follow the same pre determined route. Instead of making things easier, it would just cause chaos, and nightmares for the drivers. (Just my opinion, of course)

I'm not going to respond to service issues in this post... however, you can read about our new dispatching system in my other post (link in above post) It's 5:20am, and I think I'm going to head to bed. :)

Brian430

11-21-2002, 05:46 PM

The biggest problem with the busses?: That WDW needs so many of them in the 1st place because they have over developed their property to an alarming degree.

I don't even want to phathom what those roadways will look like once their new 5,600-room value resort opens near Downtown Disney. Let's assume the average room will be holding three guests - that's an additional 13,440 people who will need to use WDW's-already choked roadways (based on an 80 percent occupancy rate, or 4,480 rooms filled).

Half may drive, which would place an additional 2,240 cars on the road! The other half will need to rely on the buses. How many more busses do you think it will take to shuttle 6,720 people to the attractions every day? My guess is between 50 to 100 additional busses belching fumes and further snarling traffic.

Has anyone noticed what traffic near CBR, OKW and DTD has looks like already? The intersection leading to OKW is a total smog-filled mess.

Does anyone think a more efficient dispatch system can solve this problem?

If Disney wants to continue this pace of urban-style development they should also invest in their infrastructure. They should also take better advantage the amount of space they have (or had) and spread out those developments.

But as I said before, WDW is running out of land, and is exhibiting signs of urban setting - complete with an over-burdened public transporation system.

I guess that adds a certain element of theming to Downtown Disney... But then again, I can get that anywhere.

- B

seashoreCM

11-21-2002, 11:07 PM

Is World Drive (north south freeway MK to Main Gate at 192) congested?

I think the problem if any with Pop Century (that new value resort south of CBR) will be having enough buses and drivers, not the road system. Pop Century as a whole is the same size as the three All Stars.

Buses can leave Pop Century, go south two blocks to uncrowded Osceola, then west to AK/BB or get on World Drive for a clean quick shot northward to MGM, Epcot and MK.

For people who drive, they will be filling up parking spaces to the disadvantage of day guests.

The new resort between CBR and DD is not Disney. They will have to take care of their own transportation.

Brian430

11-21-2002, 11:35 PM

Those without rental cars, will need to take a bus to DTD from Pop Century. So the night-time congestion will be affected.

As far as those extra 100 buses looping south they will still eventually need to converge with other auto traffic. Even if it happens closer to the parks.

It's inevitable that this much extra traffic can only make matters worse.

WDW needs to revisit its history of innovation when it comes to transportation. The monorail and boat systems are efficient and classy options.

Resorting to buses as a temporary solution would have been acceptable. Making it their main long-term solution is patently unDisney.

They should be ashamed of their own lack of imagination and commitment to quality.

Chip 'n Dale Express

11-22-2002, 03:06 AM

Originally posted by Brian430
How many more busses do you think it will take to shuttle 6,720 people to the attractions every day? My guess is between 50 to 100 additional busses belching fumes and further snarling traffic.

We've got the busses. In fact, with the 24 new ones arriving, we'll be more than set. As for how many more Driver Shifts we'll need... we've been steadily increasing our department, so we're almost set.

Originally posted by Brian430
Has anyone noticed what traffic near CBR, OKW and DTD has looks like already? The intersection leading to OKW is a total smog-filled mess.

As someone who drives that intersection every single day, I really haven't found that intersection to be a problem at all... by any means. (Except that one frost heave) What has posed the only (slight) problem are two things. First, the "Bonnet Creek Resort" construction. And second, not-so-bright tourists with no common sense.

Another thing to note... our new low floor busses, along with a bunch of our current RTS busses have new low emmission diesel engines that have lower emmissions than a Compressed Natural Gas engine. (We're working on replacing more RTS engines)

Originally posted by Brian430
Does anyone think a more efficient dispatch system can solve this problem?

Our dispatching system is very efficient. See my explanation of Flex Dispatch and Magic On Demand in the Transportation board.

Originally posted by Brian430
If Disney wants to continue this pace of urban-style development they should also invest in their infrastructure. They should also take better advantage the amount of space they have (or had) and spread out those developments.

The last time they did that, people complained that All-Stars, Animal Kingdom, and AK Lodge were "Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out there" and "remote". (When in fact... they're not)

Shelly

11-22-2002, 11:10 AM

I hate the busses! They need to expand the monorail. When we stay at BC/YC We even walk thru Epcot to take the monorail to MK rather than walk out front to catch the bus. I say scrap the busses take all that money and expand the monorail. I know, not feesable but I can dream, right.

bigdisneydaddy

11-22-2002, 01:31 PM

Disney does a wonderful job with their bus system. The logistics of moving that number of people under an ever changing schedule is huge.
I am sure it takes many hard working dedicated people to operate. I have had to wait for busses just like anyone else, No system of mass transit is going to respond to every single person exactly when they want.
I enjoy riding the older busses, I worked for a company that supplied the GMC plant in Pontiac,MI and used to make deliveries to the plant where they were manufactured. I often wonder if I am riding on a bus that I saw being built in the late 70's early 80's.
Disney should also be commended for their committment to keeping their fleet of older busses updated with newer technology engines. As was said previously, The new generation of Diesels are very efficient and produce significantly less pollution than units just five yrs ago. I think some of the objections to diesels is a "parrotting" of attempts by individuals to demonize an industry, similar to what has been done to SUV owners.

isyne4u

11-22-2002, 11:28 PM

As a long time WDW visitor I have to say the transportation is just a small part of the experience. I like to look at the overall experience-the magic, the pixie dust, and the fun.

When I pay as much as I do for a vacation I am not about to let something like the transportation get in the way of my fun. I was at WDW for Easter this past year. I went with my78 year old grandmother, mother, and my 23 1/2 month old toddler and we found the buses to be one of the nicest parts of the trip. We were able to hop aboard and go where we needed without too much trouble. We had a few delays but that gave the toddler more time to run around and burn his energy. I don't think we had to wait more than 20 minutes for any bus. The only problem that we saw, was when the toddler threw tantrums on the buses and people realized they couldn't throw us off the bus (legally anyway).

One of my favorite parts was watching the faces of the people who were hot, tired, and crabby. They would get on the bus and then complain about everything from the buses to the cost of food, to the weather and I would sit back enjoy the ride and think about all the fun I had that day and feel sorry for the people that couldn't find anything good about their day at The World.

Again, if I'm going to pay that much for a vacation I'm not letting anything stand in the way of having a good time. (Okay maybe the terrible two year old tantrums- but those were quickly forgotten)

I know there are problems with the buses but, in my opinion, in the grand scheme of things what does it really matter as long as the overall trip was enjoyable. I am there for fantasy and in fantasy land there are no clocks.

As for the TL to Italy in the same day. I would plan a different day to go to Italy for dinner, because after a day in the water the kids are going to be tired, probably sunburned, and ready to eat long before 7 pm. My suggestion, TL and then back to the hotel for some time to change, snack and then dinner at the restaurant at the resort.

Just my opion for what it's worth.
tara:Pinkbounc

isyne4u

11-23-2002, 12:00 AM

manning

11-23-2002, 09:04 PM

quote

By the way, the busses are supposed to be a sort of scheulde. I was on one once that skipped a stop (my stop) because the driver was late.

--------------------------------------------

Was that Crankshaft driving??

Chip 'n Dale Express

11-23-2002, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by manning
By the way, the busses are supposed to be a sort of scheulde. I was on one once that skipped a stop (my stop) because the driver was late.

With the exception of the Fort Wilderness internals, we are not on any form of schedule anymore.

ohanafamily

11-24-2002, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by Chip 'n Dale Express
With the exception of the Fort Wilderness internals, we are not on any form of schedule anymore.

From what I can understend from you flex/mod description, you may not be on a set schedule, but there is a maximum of a 20 minute interval between the busses in the off season, and 8 minutes during peak season (varying slightly for the peak and off peak hours) This is ftom the resort to the parks. On the way back, since you can more easily determine who needs to go where, you don't have to adhere to quite that schedule, so perhaps within 5 minutes of someone walking up to the stop, or every 20 minutes after the previous bus left during not peak season. also this depends on how many people are at the stop.

Am I somewaht right on this?

BTW Tyler, I like the new Signature
:bounce:

mitros

11-24-2002, 01:12 PM

:cool: Regarding Tylers post on 11/17, the theming of the buses, I think it is very beknownst {dont think thats a word, is it?} as to why they let outside companies wrap their buses, the ever popular $$$ I am sure disney gets paid a pretty buck for those rolling advertisments, which of course, in the case of the outside vendors are rolling outside of the property for ad purposes. I guess they figure why should we spend money decorating our own buses when they only drive on property and anyone that sees thaem is already here and doesn't need to see ads about things on the property! Anyway thanks for the photos of the buses including the ones you posted on the transportation boards regarding the car crash.

Chip 'n Dale Express

11-24-2002, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by ohanafamily
From what I can understend from you flex/mod description, you may not be on a set schedule, but there is a maximum of a 20 minute interval between the busses in the off season, and 8 minutes during peak season (varying slightly for the peak and off peak hours) This is ftom the resort to the parks. On the way back, since you can more easily determine who needs to go where, you don't have to adhere to quite that schedule, so perhaps within 5 minutes of someone walking up to the stop, or every 20 minutes after the previous bus left during not peak season. also this depends on how many people are at the stop.

Disney will always advertise bus intervals at 20 minutes. This is mostly a "Cover Your Butt" type thing. In actuality, busses are dispatched anywhere from 5 minute to 17 minute intervals, depending on anticipated demand. All of our dispatching is done via computer, which ensures that no route goes uncovered. It tracks intervals, bus allocations, and many other bus operation features.

Chip 'n Dale Express

11-24-2002, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by mitros
:cool: Regarding Tylers post on 11/17, the theming of the buses, I think it is very beknownst {dont think thats a word, is it?} as to why they let outside companies wrap their buses, the ever popular $$$ I am sure disney gets paid a pretty buck for those rolling advertisments, which of course, in the case of the outside vendors are rolling outside of the property for ad purposes. I guess they figure why should we spend money decorating our own buses when they only drive on property and anyone that sees thaem is already here and doesn't need to see ads about things on the property! Anyway thanks for the photos of the buses including the ones you posted on the transportation boards regarding the car crash.

Actually... Disney pays THEM to advertise on thier busses.

As to why we don't wrap our busses with themes and whatnot... it's all a bunch of corporate legal red tape. When I was in Monorails, and we were designing our Co-Pilot licenses... we were not even allowed to have Mickey Mouse (or any other character for that matter) on the license, even though we are a part of Disney.

PKS44

11-24-2002, 08:45 PM

Tyler-

What about these stories we hear from people waiting 45 minutes to 90 minutes for a bus from AK to MK in the mornings, or to go to DTD, or WL transportation nightmares, etc...are these fabrications, rare exceptions that get blown out of proportion because that is what people remember, or what?

Paul

ztbz

11-25-2002, 12:21 AM

Was this the trip time to go from the Ak to Mk or was it waiting for a Bus for 45 to 90 mins to get from AK to MK?

Now if its the Trip time, lets take into account first you must
take the Bus from AK to TTC then transfer to the Monorail to the MK and on a busy day it can take up to 45 mins (or More) to get to the MK.

Also the TTC Buses are on a Scheuldes including the AK to TTC Route.

Nearly 95% of all Bus Routes are NOT on a Scheulde the exections are TTC Routes, Sports Complex route and the Cast Shuttles, Also when a Bus does a Route, chances are the Bus Driver will be assigned another Route when He/She Reachs the Park or Downtown Disney.

Also one of the Worst Roadways at Disney is Buena Vista Drive with 19 traffic Lights from All Star Resort to the Mgm Studio to Downtown Disney, this is an East/West Roadway.

Also if you are planning to go to Downtown Disney at Dinner time (5 to 8 pm) plan to leave early this is the Worst time for riding a Disney Bus to Downtown Disney.

Z :smooth:

ohanafamily

11-25-2002, 12:30 AM

From what I understand from Tyler is that once they went to the FLEX/MOD dispatch system these long waits can't happen anymore. There is still a lot of perceived wait time...it always SEEMS longer when you are tired/wet.
:bounce:

Chip 'n Dale Express

11-25-2002, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by PKS44
Tyler-

What about these stories we hear from people waiting 45 minutes to 90 minutes for a bus from AK to MK in the mornings, or to go to DTD, or WL transportation nightmares, etc...are these fabrications, rare exceptions that get blown out of proportion because that is what people remember, or what?

Paul

Well, the first thing to remember is that Disney Transport is highly dynamic. Always improving services. So just because something was one way last year, doesn't mean it will be that way this year.

Second... although it's not impossible for something to happen to cause an extended wait, currently with Flex & MOD, it's highly improbable. In my experience, 90% of all guest complains about extended waits are due to the following:

Percieved time... Really was only 10 minutes, but felt like 30.
Not paying attention. The bus came, but the guest was busy talking, and didn't notice it come and go.
That bus just isn't running right now. Back when Epcot opened at 10am, the bus didn't start to run till 9am. I had one couple chew me out at 8:30 because they had been waiting over an hour for the Epcot bus. Or, people won't realize a park has closed, and will be waiting.
The guest is simply lying. Unfortunetly, this happens a lot. People will walk up to a bus stop, pick up the house phone, and then complain that they've been waiting 45 mins for a bus.

The other 10% of complaints are legitimate... and typically happen during nighttime peak times for DTD. Although DTD pads the bus routes with extra busses, if a bus fills up at the Polynesian, the next bus will be asked to start at the Grand Floridian... however, it still takes 5 mins for the bus to get there, so that's an extra 5 minutes that those guests might have to wait.

mkandk

11-26-2002, 04:21 PM

Hey, what about a segway? I realize they are too expensive right now to be practical, but I have a feeling Walt would be all over this new technology. Maybe they could be available to rent at the resorts, and you could check them in at the park gates.

Chip 'n Dale Express

11-26-2002, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by mkandk
Hey, what about a segway? I realize they are too expensive right now to be practical, but I have a feeling Walt would be all over this new technology. Maybe they could be available to rent at the resorts, and you could check them in at the park gates.

I got to ride one of those things a few months back... they're cool, but the coolness wears off... personally... I'd rather walk. Excersize is good. Not to mention, I can just see all the accidents and collisions we'd have... :rolleyes:

ohanafamily

11-27-2002, 02:41 AM

How about renaming the thread "Transportation Talks With Tyler" ;)

:bounce:

Patch'sD

11-27-2002, 12:41 PM

Tyler has stated the problem quite Eloquently. Either real or perceived, The guest has no clue when a bus will be coming. Tyler has stated in his own words that a guest may be disatisified by a perceived wait time. The key word here is disatisified. IF Disney was to put a messaging system in, wouldn't this avoid the percieved wait time issue. When you got to the bus stop, A sign would be available to inform the guest when the bus was coming. In Tylers words it would solve 90% of the problems. A blinking light or Automated Message system could tell you what bus was aproaching, avoiding the not paying attention problem. The next bus for MK is expected in 15 minutes can cut down on the perception problem. A not running sign can for the resort can avoid the dazed and confused about what park opens when problem. And of course can alert the guest when there is a real problem and give them the choice to make other arrangements.

We don't need the latest and greatest Tech here. A transponder and sensor type system would work well and provide guests with a more informed and pleasureable stay at the resort.

The Mod and FLex programs sound to me as cutbacks to make service more effcient in terms of cost not service. No dead head runs means that the bus will take longer to get back to it's point of origin and requires less busses. The flex program to means to me "we have no clue what the demand is so we will react to it rather then plan for it". if there is heavy demand for DD, Epcot, and MK who suffers if more busses are dispatched to location 1 and location 2, while location 3 gets less busses. I can see this system doubling wait times for people will improving it for others.

I value Tylers opinion and his knowledge. But He paints a very rosie picture when it comes to the bus system. That has had many complaints. I don't blame him, he takes pride in his work and his system and should be commended for that.

Chip 'n Dale Express

11-27-2002, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Patch'sD
IF Disney was to put a messaging system in, wouldn't this avoid the percieved wait time issue. When you got to the bus stop, A sign would be available to inform the guest when the bus was coming.

But, see, here's the thing. Unlike your typical transit system in which this system would work for... Disney is quite different.

The Next Bus system, and other simmilar systems operate on the assumption that bus 5464 is running on route 45. It's got a fixed route, with fixed stops. The computer uses GPS tracking to find the location of bus 5464 along the fixed route, and can calculate times based on distance.

With Disney... it's a bit different. With MOD, all of our busses are dynamically assigned to a route. Bus 2769 could be waiting in the dispatch line at Port Orleans... and then get dispatched immediatly to go do West, North, East for Magic Kingdom. So, now, ETA would be 2, 5, 8 mins respectivly. So we'll say those times will now just pop up on a screen. Bus gets to the West Depot, and there is a guest travelling with a scooter. By now, the screen at the North depot says 2mins for the next bus. Well... suppose it takes a few minutes to secure the scooter. Now, the bus is percieved as being late by the guests, and they'll be complaining. Now... lets say the bus fills up at the North Depot. The folks at the East Depot are looking at thier screen and it says 2mins for the next bus, because the system sees that bus so close.

Originally posted by Patch'sD
The Mod and FLex programs sound to me as cutbacks to make service more effcient in terms of cost not service. No dead head runs means that the bus will take longer to get back to it's point of origin and requires less busses.

Um, no. They are NOT cutbacks, and in fact require more staffing. MODs sole purpose is to maximize efficiency. Look at it this way... Why have a bus run empty from the AK area to the MK area? The bus is going to that area anyways, might as well take some people along!

Originally posted by Patch'sD
The flex program to means to me "we have no clue what the demand is so we will react to it rather then plan for it". if there is heavy demand for DD, Epcot, and MK who suffers if more busses are dispatched to location 1 and location 2, while location 3 gets less busses. I can see this system doubling wait times for people will improving it for others.

I don't think you understand Flex Dispatch. While MOD operates out of the resorts, Flex operates out of the theme park. We do not share busses. Flex Dispatch operates NO DIFFERENTLY than the old pre-set route busses. The set dispatch times are STILL THERE. If every single bus runs perfectly on time... neither early nor late... and if nothing goes wrong... then in theory... each bus will recieve the exact same run, time after time. Happens to me all the time. However... some drivers will run early. Some will run late. Traffic happens. Flex Dispatch allows for shorter intervals by taking drivers who run early, and giving them the next dispatch times... and then the drivers who might get a bit behind, get the dispatch times after that. Instead of drivers pulling into the MK 10 minutes early... they're now given a dispatch time of NOW. This takes that 10 mins and puts it to use. So, for example, instead of doing 6 runs in a three hour period... we might be able to do 8 runs.

Keep in mind... Flex Dispatch is NOT a demand based dispatching system. However, it does allow the flexibility to be able to add busses to certain routes if neccessary.

WebmasterCricket

11-27-2002, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Chip 'n Dale Express
But, see, here's the thing. Unlike your typical transit system in which this system would work for... Disney is quite different.[/B]

Oh, but that may be where you could be wrong.

I do things all day long that have been working just fine. That doesn't mean there isn't a better way.

You are obviously correct in saying that Disney is doing whatever it is that they are doing right now. You do it every time you go to work. Anyone here would be short sighted in arguing that point with you.

The thing you may not be seeing, is that there is possibly a better system out there that is based on the "typical transit system". Disney may have tried the "typical transit system" without the new tech in the past, and it failed due to the many reasons given here and many others not yet mentioned. With this new tech and software, it could very well (hey it's a rumor board right???) replace what you are doing now as a whole.

No more Flex dispatch, no more MOD. Strictly a software driven location and flow based automated dispatch system that fixes itself as it learns where the problems are.

We could all be issued hovercraft as well when we check in. Hey you never know. It could happen someday! ;)

JC

ohanafamily

11-27-2002, 03:15 PM

Tyler, couldn't they quickly and inexpensively implement a sytem to where when a bus is dispatched there is a sign counting down the time to when it should reach the next stop? based on an average traffic model. when it hits each stop the dispatcher enters it in the system and it updates the list for the rest of the stops. You could approximate the first stop because you know what time the next bus would be dispatched. Further, you could put a call button at each stop for guests to comunicate if the system isn't working. This would make it easy to reach a dispatcher, and at least make the guest know tha a bus is on the way. If lots of people are grumbling, dispatch another bus...The signs don't have to be high tech, and the software for the timing approximation can start simple and work off of models created over time for traffic patterns and delays. One dispatcher for each line would control a board. The boards would be centrally located in a single room. The same Flex/MOD dispatcher could press a button when the bus is dispatched, then press another when the bus reports that they have arrived at stop #1. When they hit stop #1 a timer based on when the next bus is supposed to leave the station will be set. It can be done wirelessly, or wired. It can be simple or complex. but a low powerd display with the approximate wait time would make things easier.

The drawback is that if you dispatch an extra bus you would still have to send the regular one through, for those people who rely on the amount of time the timer gives them.

The call button could be used to inform the dispatcher of a large group, or getting guests advice on how to get where. Since the person at the stop would be communicating with a CM not a dispatcher, the CM could call the dispatcher if needed. It would help keep people from getting royally upset...

just an idea...
:bounce:

Conure

11-30-2002, 10:26 AM

I actually think the bus system is a decent form of primary travel. I also think that the schedule is bad. When I stayed at the All Star Sports, we saw a bus for EPCOT leave, and whil waiting in line we saw THREE MGM busses come, with an assortment of others, until finally, our EPCOT bus came. They need to reconsider the popularity of each park, amount of time spent, weather, and other factors into the bus times. They should be ready for each scenario. I'm guessing people are more willing to wait for a bus when it's suuny, not uncomfortably warm, at the Magic Kingdom, the when it's 50 degrees F, pouring rain, at 8:00 AM, waitning at a hotel.

Chip 'n Dale Express

11-30-2002, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by ohanafamily
Tyler, couldn't they quickly and inexpensively implement a sytem

There is no such thing as "Quick" or "Inexpensive" at Walt Disney World. LOL

Originally posted by ohanafamily
Further, you could put a call button at each stop for guests to comunicate if the system isn't working. This would make it easy to reach a dispatcher

We actually already have house phones at most bus stops, so that guests can call WDW-RIDE for Bus Information. Unfortunetly, most of the calls are made to complain about extended wait times that are false. Just today, I went into WL... picked up no one. 15 mins later, I heard a call over the radio that guests were complaining that they had been waiting 45 mins for a DTD bus.

In addition... suppose they do put up that "Approx wait time" display... and a bus fills up at the prior stop. Now the time display gets reset to 5 mins (since they now have to dispatch a new bus). Those guests who are staring at the sign will now start calling up and complaining and whatnot.

I hate to sound pessimistic... but, experiencing what I do out there... That is exactly what will happen.

PKS44

11-30-2002, 09:58 PM

One thing that was cool about the Moscow subway system (as I recall from many years ago) was it told you how long it had been SINCE the last train. You weren't sure when the next would be but it was nice to have a sense of how far off it might be given the usual cycling times.

It seems to me that what guests want at the very least is information...such a system would eliminate the "lying" that guests do to themselves and to CM's about wait times and would avoid the need to re-adjust for guessing arrival times when buses fill up at a prior stop as Tyler notes...

A display clock set-up would show the last Epcot bus was X min ago, the last MGM bus was Y minutes ago, the last DTD bus was Z minutes ago, etc...as each bus left it would reset the clock to 0. and start counting again. Guests could see for themselves that they were not waiting those long times that it sometimes feels AND WDW would have a more reliable guide of how long between buses things are going.... I think this is a simple, low tech and cheap and easy system that could go a long way to soothing some of the bus-related headaches.

Paul

Tiffany

11-30-2002, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by PKS44
One thing that was cool about the Moscow subway system (as I recall from many years ago) was it told you how long it had been SINCE the last train. You weren't sure when the next would be but it was nice to have a sense of how far off it might be given the usual cycling times.

It seems to me that what guests want at the very least is information...such a system would eliminate the "lying" that guests do to themselves and to CM's about wait times and would avoid the need to re-adjust for guessing arrival times when buses fill up at a prior stop as Tyler notes...

A display clock set-up would show the last Epcot bus was X min ago, the last MGM bus was Y minutes ago, the last DTD bus was Z minutes ago, etc...as each bus left it would reset the clock to 0. and start counting again. Guests could see for themselves that they were not waiting those long times that it sometimes feels AND WDW would have a more reliable guide of how long between buses things are going.... I think this is a simple, low tech and cheap and easy system that could go a long way to soothing some of the bus-related headaches.

Paul

Paul,

I must say that this is one of the best ideas I have ever read about a suggested improvement at WDW. Great idea!