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View Full Version : Interesting comparison with Marriott


Montana2012
12-08-2011, 11:30 PM
We are owners at BLT, AKV and Aulani. Went to see the Marriott next door just for fun during our Aulani visit this week. Aulani is 100% better however we did learn with Marriott Vacation Club there is no 50 year ownership. It is forever! Also you can roll you points for one year like Disney but if you still don't use them in year two, you can convert them to Marriott Reward points that never expire! WOW! Two very big things to consider when we go to add points in 2012.

slum808
12-09-2011, 03:10 AM
I would be vary leery of purchasing Marriott points right now. Marriott has been very unclear about what resale points are able to book. The current word is that points purchased resale can only be used to book rooms 60 days or less. That makes the resale value almost zero. Couple that with the never ending contract and you have a recipe for disaster.

JimMIA
12-09-2011, 07:23 AM
Even more important, whatever their plan is for using rollover points, that's a "perk" that they could change at any time. Which makes it a foolish thing to consider in any purchase decision.

Like many timeshares, Marriott can be purchased very inexpensively on eBay, but the prudent buyer will do a lot of research and fully understand what they're buying -- something that very few timeshare purchasers (including DVC) really do.

ssawka
12-09-2011, 09:20 AM
I just wonder how long it will take for that "Forever" membership to change from a benefit into a burden. I mean seriously! We are already going to have this thing until DW and I are 87! :scared1: Sure, you can give it to your kids, if you have kids, but are you sure they would want it?

jodifla
12-09-2011, 09:24 AM
I just wonder how long it will take for that "Forever" membership to change from a benefit into a burden. I mean seriously! We are already going to have this thing until DW and I are 87! :scared1: Sure, you can give it to your kids, if you have kids, but are you sure they would want it?

yes, I think "forever" is actually a burden already, not a benefit. Th 50 years is fine.

Havana
12-09-2011, 09:37 AM
yes, I think "forever" is actually a burden already, not a benefit. Th 50 years is fine.

I totally agree.

DeeCee735
12-09-2011, 11:30 AM
I just wonder how long it will take for that "Forever" membership to change from a benefit into a burden. I mean seriously! We are already going to have this thing until DW and I are 87! :scared1: Sure, you can give it to your kids, if you have kids, but are you sure they would want it?

The concept of leaving a timeshare to ones children is nice on the surface, but one has to consider if they want that timeshare in that home resort, as well as a legacy of the debt of maintenance fees....

Montana2012
12-09-2011, 12:13 PM
I would not buy resale points. I would buy from Marriott. And yes, just like DVC, perks can change. Its the risk with all time shares. As far as forever being a burden, that makes no sense to me. Most of us will either sell our Disney points when we are done or give to the children. The difference is with Disney points they become less valuable as a resale the closer you get to the 50 years. With forever points this is not an issue. Either way the children can always sell if they don't want them. For someone without children you could always gift your points and take a tax deduction!

thepops
12-09-2011, 12:53 PM
I would not buy resale points. I would buy from Marriott. And yes, just like DVC, perks can change. Its the risk with all time shares. As far as forever being a burden, that makes no sense to me. If you own a house, its forever and I have never met someone who thinks thats bad! Most of us will either sell our Disney points when we are done or give to the children. The difference is with Disney points they become less valuable as a resale the closer you get to the 50 years. With forever points this is not an issue. Either way the children can always sell if they don't want them. For someone without children you could always gift your points and take a tax deduction!

Yes because when you sell your house the person that buys it can do whatever you were able to do with the house. If your community said that if you sold your house, the person who bought it could only stay in it during the week, or couldn't have anyone over to visit then you would have a hard time getting rid of it. (while your property taxes and maint fees continued to rise). so when timeshare restrict the options that someone buying your timeshare from you that can make it much less valuable.

Montana2012
12-09-2011, 01:13 PM
Yes because when you sell your house the person that buys it can do whatever you were able to do with the house. If your community said that if you sold your house, the person who bought it could only stay in it during the week, or couldn't have anyone over to visit then you would have a hard time getting rid of it. (while your property taxes and maint fees continued to rise). so when timeshare restrict the options that someone buying your timeshare from you that can make it much less valuable.

I don't understand how this applies to a forever deed vs. a 50 year deed. Let me try to clarify my point. When a 50 year Disney deed is in year 45, it has very little value. The person who buys it has only 5 years of vacations. A forever deed does not have this declining value component. The person who buys it has his or her entire lifetime to vacation. If you feel for some reason that having an asset that disappears in 50 years vs. an asset that never disappears is better for you than there is no need to discuss it further. Its all a matter of personal prefrence! :thumbsup2

Deb & Bill
12-09-2011, 02:17 PM
I don't understand how this applies to a forever deed vs. a 50 year deed. Let me try to clarify my point. When a 50 year Disney deed is in year 45, it has very little value. The person who buys it has only 5 years of vacations. A forever deed does not have this declining value component. The person who buys it has his or her entire lifetime to vacation. If you feel for some reason that having an asset that disappears in 50 years vs. an asset that never disappears is better for you than there is no need to discuss it further. Its all a matter of personal prefrence! :thumbsup2

I'm 61. I don't need a never ending or a 50 year time frame. I'm not going to saddle my son with member fees that are outrageous (as they will be when I don't need it any more). DVC works fine for me.

Montana2012
12-09-2011, 02:42 PM
I'm 61. I don't need a never ending or a 50 year time frame. I'm not going to saddle my son with member fees that are outrageous (as they will be when I don't need it any more). DVC works fine for me.

Sorry you think the member fees are (or will be) outrageous. Perhaps you should sell now if you are unhappy with the fees. There are several good resale brokers around Orlando. Either way if you are 61 and will not saddle your son with the outrageous fees, you will be selling and you will learn about the effect of declining years of vacations on your asset.

Chuck S
12-09-2011, 02:51 PM
I don't understand how this applies to a forever deed vs. a 50 year deed. Let me try to clarify my point. When a 50 year Disney deed is in year 45, it has very little value. The person who buys it has only 5 years of vacations. A forever deed does not have this declining value component. The person who buys it has his or her entire lifetime to vacation. If you feel for some reason that having an asset that disappears in 50 years vs. an asset that never disappears is better for you than there is no need to discuss it further. Its all a matter of personal prefrence! :thumbsup2

But the property will age and become old and likely in need of major rehab or rebuilding within 50 to 60 years. Who pays for that? The forever deeded owners, that's who. Even the best maintained property has a practical useful life. Look on ebay, many "forever" timeshares are selling for pennies on the dollar. Whether the contract ends, like with Disney, or the property is deeded forever, eventually they will be worth next to nothing.

Deb & Bill
12-09-2011, 02:53 PM
Sorry you think the member fees are (or will be) outrageous. Perhaps you should sell now if you are unhappy with the fees. There are several good resale brokers around Orlando. Either way if you are 61 and will not saddle your son with the outrageous fees, you will be selling and you will learn about the effect of declining years of vacations on your asset.

I've already gotten my money's worth out of my points. I bought in 1997 for $50 a point. Dues around that time were about $3 a point. Now are closer to $6 a point. We'll sell when they get around $9 a point or so. I've already sold two contracts and made more on them than I paid, even after real estate fees.

Montana2012
12-09-2011, 02:59 PM
FYI... We love DVC! Own in 3 resorts! I AM NOT KNOCKING DVC!!!!!! Just pointing out some differences between DVC and Marriott. I think the lifetime ownership is important. I also think never losing points by having the conversion to MR points is important. If you don't, thats fine but please don't trash my opinion.

Montana2012
12-09-2011, 03:04 PM
But the property will age and become old and likely in need of major rehab or rebuilding within 50 to 60 years. Who pays for that? The forever deeded owners, that's who. Even the best maintained property has a practical useful life. Look on ebay, many "forever" timeshares are selling for pennies on the dollar. Whether the contract ends, like with Disney, or the property is deeded forever, eventually they will be worth next to nothing.

Wrong. Unlike Disney, Marriott does not have a home resort. They are always building new properties and selling off old ones to keep the dues reasonable. If you have a home resort like DVC, you are saddled with the maintaince and dues on that resort and your are correct, after 50 years its a dump.

Chuck S
12-09-2011, 03:25 PM
Wrong. Unlike Disney, Marriott does not have a home resort. They are always building new properties and selling off old ones to keep the dues reasonable. If you have a home resort like DVC, you are saddled with the maintaince and dues on that resort and your are correct, after 50 years its a dump.

You have to have some sort of home resort in order to issue a deeded real estate interest for a timeshare.

Lorelei528
12-09-2011, 03:36 PM
My brother and sister in law looked into DVC years ago and ended up with Marriott.

When we bought into DVC, my brother told me one of the reasons he liked Marriott better was it was forever...

To each his own I guess really. To me, Marriott's are ok, but not all are great and when we visit WDW I would want to stay on property and Marriott doesn't let you do that (obviously)...

I do like the non-expiration of points though! I don't think I knew that!

JimC
12-09-2011, 04:35 PM
Wrong. Unlike Disney, Marriott does not have a home resort. They are always building new properties and selling off old ones to keep the dues reasonable. If you have a home resort like DVC, you are saddled with the maintaince and dues on that resort and your are correct, after 50 years its a dump.

If you are a weeks Marriott owner you own an interest in a specific property, just as you do with DVC. Only the owners of the trust points have an undifferentiated interest.

Marriott has been scaling back development plans. The market is saturated with inventory, but lacking in buyers, particularly buyers of developer inventory. Some development will occur, but not until demand picks up.

amym2
12-09-2011, 04:49 PM
You have to have some sort of home resort in order to issue a deeded real estate interest for a timeshare.

This was my understanding. My sister has Marriott and they specifically own at a resort in Myrtle Beach but can trade for other locations when available. I believe they also own a specific week, or a specific time period, or something like that. Definitely not as much flexibility as DVC. We stayed at the JW Marriott with them next to Aulani, and it was fabulous.

Chuck S
12-09-2011, 05:17 PM
No one is saying Marriott doesn't have some beautiful properties. But this trust they've set up seems to be based on the notion that they have to keep building, and selling off older properties. I see some problems with that whole thing. As new properties are added, like with DVC, they have to sell in order to turn a profit.

Let us say that the trust has 100 properties fully sold, and they build a new property, which also has to be sold, but sell off one of the older properties, so now they have 100% of the properties trying to house 110% of the members, as no one has left the trust when the older property sold....if they are forever members of the trust. It could lead quickly to overselling a resort.

It really doesn't seem sustainable long term.

Montana2012
12-09-2011, 06:17 PM
The Marriott model currently is the similar to Disney. You buy points, you book any resort up to 12 months in advance and pay the required amount of points. If you are a Premier Member (6,500 pts. or higher) you can book 13 months in advance and you can book any Ritz Carlton hotel. You can also use your points for many different cruise lines and various other participating networks. They actually have more locations and more ways to use your points than Disney. And you do not have a home resort. I only went through a quick presentation but before I would listen to "I heard" I would suggest anyone interested to actually go to a presentation like I did this week. If you always want to go to a Disney resort, obviously Marriott is not a good choice. But if you want a variety of resorts at many locations, Marriott is worth looking at and comparing to Disney's RCI relationship.

SusanDonJ
12-09-2011, 06:27 PM
No one is saying Marriott doesn't have some beautiful properties. But this trust they've set up seems to be based on the notion that they have to keep building, and selling off older properties. I see some problems with that whole thing. As new properties are added, like with DVC, they have to sell in order to turn a profit.

Let us say that the trust has 100 properties fully sold, and they build a new property, which also has to be sold, but sell off one of the older properties, so now they have 100% of the properties trying to house 110% of the members, as no one has left the trust when the older property sold....if they are forever members of the trust. It could lead quickly to overselling a resort.

It really doesn't seem sustainable long term.

(I've written a few messages to Chuck today in response to this thread but maybe it's better if I stop bothering him and join in here. As a Marriott Weeks owner who has been religiously reading the disboards for years, I'm convinced that Marriott's new Destination Club points-based model combines the best of both Marriott and DVC - flexible stay options not limited to a single week, banking and borrowing options, an extensive network of quality resorts, etc. That Marriott has managed to set up their new system in such a way that we existing Weeks owners can play without having to make a new purchase of DC Trust Points, by allowing us to add the DC exchange options as an add-on to our Weeks, is appreciated by me and many other Marriott owners. I'm in the camp that believes the onsite immersion at WDW is DVC's greatest feature so you can imagine it was a very sad day when DVC left II's portfolio for RCI. If not for the lack of DVC access with Marriott, I'd say the new product is perfect. And for purposes of this thread, I prefer DVC's expiring contract model to Marriott's forever after model - my biggest timeshare worry is that our children will be saddled with an ownership they don't want.)

Anyway, Chuck, about your post here. Marriott's Destination Club Trust was established in Florida which if I'm not mistaken is also the case with DVC, which means it has to be in compliance with all of the same regulations relating to inventory controls as DVC. It would be illegal for Marriott to oversell DC Trust Points.

In the governing documents for Marriott Weeks Marriott is given leeway to arbitrarily and immediately sever any connection with any resort. But it's only happened in a few instances and all of those were before my time. As far as I can tell from my docs, if Marriott severs the relationship with a resort then the ownership remains with the resort but the individual owners' connections to Marriott are done. The owners' responsibility then transfers to whatever entity assumes the management of the resort, whether that would be a new management company or an owner-assumed management similar to a stand-alone condo. It's not known what the impact will be on any unsold Weeks that Marriott held at the resort and/or conveyed to the Trust, but it's speculated that if Marriott had conveyed any intervals then that would be a point in favor of Marriott NOT severing the connection.

I haven't purchased DC Trust Points so I'm not certain of how the legalities will transpire if Marriott severs the relationship with a Trust-only property, but there's no chance that Marriott could separate itself from enough conveyed property to result in Trust Members owning more points than can be allocated to inventory available for their use. It simply can't happen. It could happen that an individual owner might not have access to a certain favorite resort any longer, but that owner could still use his ownership at any of the remaining Trust properties.

And like JimC says, Marriott was sitting on a glut of inventory when the Trust/Points model was rolled out and there are no immediate plans for new development. With the economic conditions being what they are, it's going to take years for Marriott to come anywhere near close to selling off the inventory they're holding.

Thanks for letting me join your party. After reading here for years and taking advantage of the DVC rental board, it's nice to be able to maybe pay back some of what you've all given me. :)

papertraveller
12-09-2011, 06:30 PM
We own DVC, and we are also "points" owners of the Marriott Vacation Club.

So far, we have had positive experiences with both. With DVC, we have a home resort (BLT). With Marriott, we own an undifferentiated interest in the trust, which grants us a certain number of points each year (just like DVC) which allows us to book (at the 12-month mark) in any of the resorts in the system. To date, we have never managed to get organized at the 12-month mark, and have booked vacations in Palm Beach, Orlando (Grande Vista and Imperial Palm), and Fort Lauderdale.

We had initial concerns about the availability of inventory at the higher-demand resorts, since Marriott was picking up properties on the resale market and putting them into the trust. So far, the experience is better than we expected.

It still seems to me like there is more flexibility in using the points in DVC, but time will tell. It's certainly a perq to have the points converted to Marriott Rewards (albeit at a discount, with a nice skim for the company).

It will also be interesting to see just what happens as Marriott spins off the timeshare business into a separate company. It still retains some ownership, as well as seats on the board, so for now the branding and the quality it imbues (I hope) will continue.

JimC
12-09-2011, 06:38 PM
Just a reminder that Marriott was a weeks program prior to 2010. You bought a week -- usually a two bedroom lock-off -- at a specific resort in a specific season. Some resorts also had specific views. Season and view affected pricing. Some contracts were sold for every other (even or odd) year usage.

You could not trade internally either season to season or resort to resort or for different size villas. For that you needed to deposit your week with Interval International and pay the required exchange fees. Marriott owners had a priority period to see other deposited inventory before it was available to all II members.

Marriott converted to a trust based points program in 2010. Some legacy owners converted, some did not. I did not as I saw no benefit based on our current and anticipated use of our weeks. There are differences between the DVC and Marriott points programs.

We own Marriott for non Disney holidays because we like the consistency in product and service quality and the total cost of ownership is much lower. We believe they are on par with Disney in many ways. DVC is far better at story telling and rich detals in resort design.

JimMIA
12-09-2011, 07:00 PM
I would not buy resale points. I would buy from Marriott.That's an incredibly naive mindset -- and one the timeshare sales weasels love, love, love.

The general rule of thumb for just about ANY timeshare is NEVER, EVER buy from the developer. DVC was an exception to that at times in the past (I've bought DVC both resale and direct), but those days are pretty much over.

And they're definitely over for Marriott. Most knowledgeable timeshare folks would counsel, "Don't buy Marriott EITHER WAY." When the dust settles to their conversion to points, that will shift back to "resale only."

OrangeCountyCommuter
12-09-2011, 07:07 PM
Maybe there is no comparison at the two resorts the OP saw, but....

I have stayed a DVC and Marriott. There is a comparionson and IMHO Disney is not as good. Yes, I own DVC, but the rooms etc were nicer at Marriott...

Disney's big advantage in Orlando is location, but outside of Orlando they don't have that.

SusanDonJ
12-09-2011, 08:27 PM
That's an incredibly naive mindset -- and one the timeshare sales weasels love, love, love.

The general rule of thumb for just about ANY timeshare is NEVER, EVER buy from the developer. DVC was an exception to that at times in the past (I've bought DVC both resale and direct), but those days are pretty much over.

And they're definitely over for Marriott. Most knowledgeable timeshare folks would counsel, "Don't buy Marriott EITHER WAY." When the dust settles to their conversion to points, that will shift back to "resale only."

I'd say buy Marriott Weeks (available only on the external resale market now) at the resort you want in the season and unit configuration that you want, as long as you understand the rules about availability, know the limitation as far as external resales sold after 6/20/10 being NOT eligible for enrollment in the new DC, and know that you'll probably suffer a financial loss if/when you sell. On the plus side there is quite a bit of inventory available at lower prices than ever and Marriott is selectively exercising ROFR infrequently.

Buy the new DC Points direct from Marriott ONLY if you're completely aware of the current purchase and MF costs and can afford them easily, only if you've perused the Points Charts and know the number of points it will cost you to use your points where you'll most often want to go (and build in a cushion because re-allocation similar to DVC's is possible,) only if you have a full understanding of the reservation rules and availability metric, and ONLY if you can get Marriott to put in writing exactly what the costs and limitations will be for both you and the new owner should you sell on the external market anytime in the future. That's the sticking point IMO - Marriott has built exorbitant transfer costs and severe usage limitations into resale Trust Points that appear to make a purchase of resale points a losing financial proposition all around. Over on the timeshare boards we're trying to figure out if the most extreme of those costs and limitations will actually be enforced by Marriott but there hasn't been one report of a successful Trust Points external resale. Without benefit of someone's experience of course we don't know exactly how it will work, but all appearances now are that you should run very far and very fast from a Trust Points resale. It's the one exception to JimMIA's "buy resale" mantra because purchasing Trust Points direct can be a successful foray into Marriotts as long as you understand that your value will be completely in usage and your financial investment will be sunk from the minute you sign the papers. With resale Points you not only lose the initial investment, you suffer reduced usage options as well. The traditional "buy resale" simply doesn't apply (yet, if ever) with DC Points.

I'm an owner who thinks usage value is more important when it comes to timeshares than financial investment opportunity. I'd consider a resale Week or a direct Points purchase, but no way would I think about a resale Points purchase. It doesn't make any sense when both the financial and usage metrics are so depressed.

***
I just want to quickly say that for existing Marriott Weeks owners, choosing to enroll Weeks in the DC does not equate in any fashion to a "conversion" of what's owned. You retain the deed and all usage rights to your Weeks, and simply add another usage option which allows you to annually elect to accept a stipulated number of DC Points in lieu of your Weeks' usage which can be used to reserve any inventory conveyed to the Trust and made available for exchange. That's all enrollment of Weeks means - an opportunity for another exchange option to other Marriott resorts and whatever other usage options Marriott makes available with DC Points.

Cruelladeville
12-10-2011, 06:50 AM
One of the problems with Marriott's new program is that as an owner Marriott gives me a certain amount of points for my weeks, and suddenly my weeks are only worth 3-4 days on their points charts, so my fall timeshares become worth less than before. Also, you continue to pay your dues for all your home resorts, then there's a $1500 conversion fee to the points program, and you must pay more money above your normal dues for the dues of your points. I am not interested in changing to points-based program at Marriott, the costs are too high, and resale as mentioned by others will become non-existent. Why would I want weeks that I can't sell if I need the money? Granted, right now a week that sold for $24,000 new, can be had on ebay for a few hundred dollars. My Hilton Head week sold on ebay for $7, but the dues are $1100.00, so the weeks become throw-aways.The future is that I can continue to use my weeks, but only at my home resort,and I lose the power to trade into Marriott's other properties unless I convert to points. Regardless whether I pay to become points-based weeks or not, my 3 Marriott weeks are useless when I am done with them, so the only choice is to throw the weeks away. While DVC points are worth less the closer I get to the 50 year mark, they still maintain some value, and maintain full value if I rent out the points rather than sell them.

lilpooh108
12-11-2011, 10:59 AM
Thanks OP, for doing the comparisons. I'm not sure why some of the posts attacked you :confused3

We own DVC, but toured Marriott 3 times (twice in Maui [for their cheap weeklong stay offers] and once in Newport Beach). We actually enjoyed the sales presentations b/c I found the details interesting....this is before 2010 and the change and we were never interested b/c of the weeks deposit system.

It's intersting to hear about their new points system, though the severe limitations on the resale points contracts give me pause ---at least w/DVC I know that there is a viable resale market. Accordig to EBAY, there's not a good market for Marriott resale.

In fact, we almost bought Harbour Lakes via resale and the timeshare owner/seller encouraged us to take a second look on what we were doing. We took the money and bought DVC resale instead. :wizard: