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View Full Version : More point reallocations coming


Bob Price
12-08-2011, 03:41 PM
Stay tuned

Muushka
12-08-2011, 06:39 PM
Oh wonderful. I just loved the last one.:sad2:

Chuck S
12-08-2011, 06:48 PM
Historically reallocations are pretty rare. I really don't expect any for a few years, since they were just changed in 2010 and 2011, none for 2012. Remember the last prior reallocation was in 1996.

supersuperwendy
12-08-2011, 06:56 PM
At the meeting today they announced reallocations for 2013 ....

SmilingGrump
12-08-2011, 08:14 PM
What's point reallocation? I'm guessing that it's different then the regular year-to-year adjustments in Points Charts.

Chuck S
12-08-2011, 08:35 PM
What's point reallocation? I'm guessing that it's different then the regular year-to-year adjustments in Points Charts.

A reallocation is a change within the chart that are more than seasonal. Spring Break/Easter adjustments. Many things can happen, weeknights can go up with weekdays going down, or one season may increase while another decreases. Only the overall total of points required to use the entire resort for the year may not change.

hakepb
12-08-2011, 08:37 PM
Normal year-to-year is just adjusting for Easter, Thanksgiving and Christmas/NY dates. Otherwise times like August remain the same.

Allocation can mean adjusting the dates / length of the seasons. Moving points from weekends to weekdays, moving points from GV's to studios or any combination of the above. As a law, the grand sum total of points needed to book all units for the entire year must remain the same. And per contract there cannot be more than a 15% change from the previous year.

dvc_john
12-08-2011, 09:11 PM
Since they really narrowed the difference between weekend and weekday with the last 2 reallocations (at least at WDW), it would seem maybe the next one might involve seasonal reallocation.
Or could they possibly increase the differential between weekend/weekday. Maybe they went too far. I know that the other timeshare systems that I'm familiar with all have weekends at least twice the weekday point cost, and it seems to work for them. (Marriott, Hilton, Hyatt, Wyndham).

hakepb
12-08-2011, 09:15 PM
I suppose they could change the number of rooms per view category (ie bump down marginal MK view or Savannah view) so the charts then look like they go up across the board and premium categories become harder to book...

chalee94
12-09-2011, 02:33 AM
Since they really narrowed the difference between weekend and weekday with the last 2 reallocations (at least at WDW), it would seem maybe the next one might involve seasonal reallocation.

early dec getting more expensive would not be surprising...

Kidanifan08
12-09-2011, 06:49 AM
early dec getting more expensive would not be surprising...

This is exactly what I said to my wife. October F&W seems like another time where I would think increases could be seen.

photobob
12-09-2011, 06:59 AM
The previous allocations angered me greatly since they were such big changes that really negatively affected me but I am not going to let this one bother me. I must keep telling myself that!

n2mm
12-09-2011, 07:04 AM
This is exactly what I said to my wife. October F&W seems like another time where I would think increases could be seen.

You guys beat me to it. This is exactly what I thought too. Heck, just recently they changed the "seasons" for the regular resorts. Early December use to be value season and the prices were low. Not now. They are considered regular season so no cheap rates anymore. So I also suspect early December to drop into one of the higher seasons, along with October too. Ugh.

LPnerd
12-09-2011, 08:28 PM
good thing my grandkids are growing up, if they do that, I won't be going in DEC. any longer,I hate the huge crowds, so this is really going to limit my time at the parks. but, if they keep raising ticket prices, I won't be going at all soon. did no one tell them about the economy? also, since Harry Potter opened, Universal has beat them every quarter... I'll be joining that group this time as well. I have 3 days left from a ticket bought two years ago, the rest of our time will be spent else where.
I'll probably go back to Disney once more, but if they keep raising the ticket prices, NOPE. It's already a rip off compared to what it used to be IMO. I love WDW but, not at those prices. I"ll go to the actual countries instead, LOL. I can't wait through, I leave tomorrow for a week!

BeesKnees
12-09-2011, 08:45 PM
You guys beat me to it. This is exactly what I thought too. Heck, just recently they changed the "seasons" for the regular resorts. Early December use to be value season and the prices were low. Not now. They are considered regular season so no cheap rates anymore. So I also suspect early December to drop into one of the higher seasons, along with October too. Ugh.


If they go up something else has to come down.

I wouldn't be surprised if they reversed some of the last allocation. It is a good explanation for why they are doing another one so soon.

Dean
12-10-2011, 08:16 AM
Normal year-to-year is just adjusting for Easter, Thanksgiving and Christmas/NY dates. Otherwise times like August remain the same.

Allocation can mean adjusting the dates / length of the seasons. Moving points from weekends to weekdays, moving points from GV's to studios or any combination of the above. As a law, the grand sum total of points needed to book all units for the entire year must remain the same. And per contract there cannot be more than a 15% change from the previous year.I think it's 20% per year but as was proven last time, that is not really a limitation.

If they go up something else has to come down.

I wouldn't be surprised if they reversed some of the last allocation. It is a good explanation for why they are doing another one so soon.I'm on record from the last time as saying that they clearly over compensated on the weekend/weekday differential and they didn't adjust times they should have like early Dec. I remember speculating on the possible reasons they over compensated. The ones hurt most before were those in the habit of going S-F like myself, I doubt this change will be as drastic as before, however, there's really no reason to complain. They are actually required to make such changes if the demand is unequal enough.

n2mm
12-10-2011, 08:36 AM
If they go up something else has to come down.

I wouldn't be surprised if they reversed some of the last allocation. It is a good explanation for why they are doing another one so soon.

Maybe I'll luck out and one of my more favorite times of year will go down (early may maybe?). I went this past August and couldn't believe how high the rates were for mid August. The resorts were in value season, but the points were very high. I took August off my list (not just the points, but the crowds and heat too), so I would be curious to see how this plays out. I do enjoy the low points of January though! Also love the lower points in October, but fear that one may be on the chopping block.

Dean
12-10-2011, 08:55 AM
Maybe I'll luck out and one of my more favorite times of year will go down (early may maybe?). I went this past August and couldn't believe how high the rates were for mid August. The resorts were in value season, but the points were very high. I took August off my list (not just the points, but the crowds and heat too), so I would be curious to see how this plays out. I do enjoy the low points of January though! Also love the lower points in October, but fear that one may be on the chopping block.I feel it's unlikely to see much if any decrease for Dream or below. What's more likely, from a season to season standpoint, is to see Premier and Magic fall back a little bit and specific Adventure and Choice times to increase or change seasons altogether. I doubt you'll see the first half of August that's currently Magic change to a lower season and the second half of August and May is already appropriate at Dream season. If I had to pick one horse it's be a mild decrease in Premier and maybe Magic with increases that affect the time of F&W and Xmas season. I wouldn't be surprised to see asymmetric changes between resorts in this regard though I don't think it's the most likely option.

There's not much else they can do that would make a full week more or less expensive from a points standpoint. However, they could make each day the same cost including weekends and if they do that, look for some type of minimum stay or priority booking option for a full week.

dianeschlicht
12-10-2011, 07:36 PM
early dec getting more expensive would not be surprising...

I'm totally expecting that too.

castleri
12-10-2011, 09:16 PM
what about a change in the number of points for each type of villa? It has seemed to be out of proportion for 1 BR to be double studio but since the only timeshare I am familiar with is DVC maybe I am wrong about that.

Just got home tonight from a one week stay and I found the beginning of the week to be much busier than I expected. Monday at the MK was almost as crowded as some of the times I have been there Christmas week although the wait times weren't that bad - just the number of people.

Dean
12-10-2011, 09:26 PM
what about a change in the number of points for each type of villa? It has seemed to be out of proportion for 1 BR to be double studio but since the only timeshare I am familiar with is DVC maybe I am wrong about that.

Just got home tonight from a one week stay and I found the beginning of the week to be much busier than I expected. Monday at the MK was almost as crowded as some of the times I have been there Christmas week although the wait times weren't that bad - just the number of people.It is a little disproportionate compared to other timeshares I'm familiar with to be double. I'd say roughly 50% premium is more in line with expectations. Even then, the amenities of the DVC studio lags many other timeshare studios I'm familiar with. There really isn't much they could do to change this though given the specifics. They'd have to raise both the 1 & 2 BR points to lower the studio. If I read and interpret the rules correctly this would only be a problem in balancing for resorts that have dedicated studios as I don't believe the limitations on balancing applies to the lockoff points charges.

dvc_john
12-11-2011, 11:40 AM
what about a change in the number of points for each type of villa? It has seemed to be out of proportion for 1 BR to be double studio but since the only timeshare I am familiar with is DVC

For both Hilton and Hyatt, it's, more or less, a studio is 1/3 the points of a 2br, and a 1br is 2/3 the points of a 2br, and a 1br is twice the points of a studio.

For Marriott, it varies a little bit more, and many of their resorts consist of 2br's only. But, more or less, a 1br is about 2/3 the points of a 2br, and a studio is about 45-50% of a 2br, or about 75-80% the points of a 1br. IMO, a studio is not a very good use of points at Marriott since a 1br can be had for a small amount of additional points. But, as I said, Marriott varies somewhat from resort to resort.
Marriott example for Grande Vista in Orlando for early December time period:
weekday: 100 studio, 125 1br, 200 2br
weekend: 225 studio, 300 1br, 450 2br
(You'll also notice the high point differential between weekday and weekend)

dcfromva
12-11-2011, 01:38 PM
I agree with photobob, I also did not care for the last point reallocations even though we came out ahead points wise. Our pattern of usage has been to make multiple visits through out the year wrapped around weekends. Before the reallocation I did not find weekends any easier to book even though the point values were more dear.

I had a hard time believing the justifications for the reallocations since they did a point reallocation for BLT before it ever opened (since the reallocations were supposed to be based on a pattern of use. )

I think they will end up increasing the weekend points. I can't get upset about that because that's the way it used to be. I can understand increasing OCT and DEC values because of demand.

Dean
12-11-2011, 04:58 PM
I had a hard time believing the justifications for the reallocations since they did a point reallocation for BLT before it ever opened (since the reallocations were supposed to be based on a pattern of use.They had plenty of info. They didn't need BLT info only demand for WDW in general, which they had plenty of. They won't/can't micromanage to each resort unless there is a major and glaring difference.

dizfan
12-11-2011, 08:11 PM
I feel it's unlikely to see much if any decrease for Dream or below. What's more likely, from a season to season standpoint, is to see Premier and Magic fall back a little bit and specific Adventure and Choice times to increase or change seasons altogether. I doubt you'll see the first half of August that's currently Magic change to a lower season and the second half of August and May is already appropriate at Dream season. If I had to pick one horse it's be a mild decrease in Premier and maybe Magic with increases that affect the time of F&W and Xmas season. I wouldn't be surprised to see asymmetric changes between resorts in this regard though I don't think it's the most likely option.

Reading this jogged some memories. I remember reading a few years back several people pointed out they thought about renting, but when they saw the point prices for Premier and Magic were so high that they were better off booking hotel rooms through Disney and getting the deals they were offering.

Dean
12-11-2011, 09:32 PM
Reading this jogged some memories. I remember reading a few years back several people pointed out they thought about renting, but when they saw the point prices for Premier and Magic were so high that they were better off booking hotel rooms through Disney and getting the deals they were offering.Historically there are/were times that were cheaper gong direct. Before the reallocation this was often the case for weekends. With the applicable variables, it will likely be a moving target for many years.

dcfromva
12-11-2011, 10:17 PM
They had plenty of info. They didn't need BLT info only demand for WDW in general, which they had plenty of. They won't/can't micromanage to each resort unless there is a major and glaring difference.

If they had all this glaring info, why were the initial point schedules which were used to sell the property so inaccurate, eh?

Dean
12-11-2011, 11:56 PM
If they had all this glaring info, why were the initial point schedules which were used to sell the property so inaccurate, eh?I don't think inaccurate was is the right term. I'm sure they used the formula in place at the time to generate the points tables at the inception and when they made the decision to alter them, they changed them all including BLT. The timing for BLT was unfortunate but they clearly designate the option to make such changes. Anyone buying in either knew or should have known this was a risk though I'm sure no one on the outside expected it to happen after sales began but before it opened. I'd suspect DVD actually knew this was happening at the time the original BLT schedule was released but couldn't release a new one for BLT without compromising the other resort tables and/or because they hadn't been finalized.

dcfromva
12-12-2011, 02:55 PM
I don't think inaccurate was is the right term. I'm sure they used the formula in place at the time to generate the points tables at the inception and when they made the decision to alter them, they changed them all including BLT. The timing for BLT was unfortunate but they clearly designate the option to make such changes. Anyone buying in either knew or should have known this was a risk though I'm sure no one on the outside expected it to happen after sales began but before it opened. I'd suspect DVD actually knew this was happening at the time the original BLT schedule was released but couldn't release a new one for BLT without compromising the other resort tables and/or because they hadn't been finalized.

Dean,
I would concede your point if DVC had a generic point list for all resorts. But that is not the case. This was a newly created resort and the point schedules are different from all the others. If they were going by the historic values of all the other resorts they should have had a more accurate picture on the original point values for the initial point schedule. It will always seem a little fishy to me the way it was done.

Dean
12-12-2011, 07:08 PM
Dean,
I would concede your point if DVC had a generic point list for all resorts. But that is not the case. This was a newly created resort and the point schedules are different from all the others. If they were going by the historic values of all the other resorts they should have had a more accurate picture on the original point values for the initial point schedule. It will always seem a little fishy to me the way it was done.The demand formula is generic.

dcfromva
12-12-2011, 07:15 PM
The demand formula is generic.

I don't believe that, either. BLT has 3 different views that were created. It would have been far too complex to use a generic demand formula. VGC was another new resort with different peak demand periods. HHI and VRB have different peak demand periods.

Dean
12-12-2011, 07:28 PM
I don't believe that, either. BLT has 3 different views that were created. It would have been far too complex to use a generic demand formula. VGC was another new resort with different peak demand periods. HHI and VRB have different peak demand periods.Believe what you want, they are not going to adjust for the demand for each of those view types unless they are glaringly different. As I noted, My info is they use a generic formula that creates the relative demand for a season and day of the week. After that it's simple arithmetic to work out the exact points for a given view, night and season. My understanding is they don't try to micromanage from one resort to another but do have to make minor adjustments related to the specifics, mostly because they must use whole numbers. I think if you go back and look at the specifics of the original BLT charts and compare those to the other resorts, then do the same for the reallocation, you'll see trends. Also compare the BCV to BWV preferred and you'll see where minor adjustments had to be made due to limitations of the math involved.

My sense is you're trying to do what some did originally, try to make it an exact science. There are those that wanted to say because the yearly points varied by 0.00001 (for example) in the reallocations, that it was not exactly the same and thus not within the legal requirements.

Greysword
12-12-2011, 07:45 PM
Could they add a new set of booking categories (mirroring the current ones) with a higher point count to separate direct and resale points? :duck: :rolleyes1

Dean
12-12-2011, 07:52 PM
Could they add a new set of booking categories (mirroring the current ones) with a higher point count to separate direct and resale points? :duck: :rolleyes1As I understand it, this would not be possible with the existing resorts and very unlikely with any new resorts.

Chuck S
12-12-2011, 07:54 PM
Could they add a new set of booking categories (mirroring the current ones) with a higher point count to separate direct and resale points? :duck: :rolleyes1

Doubtful, as the number of points are set at the time the resort is sold, and ownership is represented by a specific number of points. I don't think the state timeshare laws would allow that particular distinction as far as resort usage.

Garthilk
12-12-2011, 10:07 PM
Are there any provisions to prevent the elimination of a season?

What provisions are there to prevent the artifical creation of catagories?

Chuck S
12-12-2011, 10:50 PM
Are there any provisions to prevent the elimination of a season?

What provisions are there to prevent the artifical creation of catagories?

A partial answer to your questions is found in the Public Offering Statement, at least for OKW in the 1991 POS. It lists the minimum number of night that 230 points could get if all days were equal...no seasons, no weekend/weekday differences. The only designation is room size. As far as room categories, I don't know, as OKW has no categories that take different amounts of points.

Dean
12-13-2011, 06:01 PM
Are there any provisions to prevent the elimination of a season?

What provisions are there to prevent the artifical creation of catagories?Technically no. The only limitations are that the points balance and that they don't change more than 20% per year. Even those limitations don't help with the components of lockoff's. They could add or remove seasons, even make odd numbers rooms different than even numbered if they so chose.