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View Full Version : VERY disappointed in DVC and their member cruise!


kyle051777
11-14-2011, 04:15 PM
I just received the email like I am sure most of you did but to my surprise it states that I am not allowed to go on a member cruise because I purchased resale after 3/2011.

This is copied from the DVC website:
Memberships not purchased directly from Disney Vacation Development, Inc. on or after March 21, 2011 will not have access to 2012/2013 S.S. Member Cruises.

I spoke with 2 different people at DVC, one was a supervisor, who confirmed the above. I expressed my concern and displeasure over this rule and could not figure it out. Am I not a DVC member? than why am I not allowed to go on a DVC member cruise.

I informed them I knew of the restrictions when I purchased resale including not being able to use points for disney cruises, but not being able to go on a member cruise was not one of them if I wanted to pay cash.

I have a email with a request for a call back concerning the matter. Very, very disappointed in DVC right now. Let me know if I am blowing this out of proportion but this really upsets me.
Thanks for listening to my rant

Harlemgirl720
11-14-2011, 04:23 PM
Sorry to hear that. I received an email stating there will be 2 member service cruises. One in October 2012 and one in January 2013. I guess thats why they were stressing for those who had offers in to close before the March deadline.

pyrxtc
11-14-2011, 04:27 PM
kind of disappointing but you knew you couldn't do cruise line with your points as your membership. It stinks that this includes the member cruise too but the new rules do say no cruises with your membership. Perhaps you know a member that will book it for you ??

lucyem
11-14-2011, 04:37 PM
It was my understanding that as a member after the March date you could not book a cruise with points. But not allowing you to even book a member cruise with cash surprises me. Though i guess they want to force all the resale buyers to buy more points direct.

Anal Annie
11-14-2011, 04:39 PM
I just received the email like I am sure most of you did but to my surprise it states that I am not allowed to go on a member cruise because I purchased resale after 3/2011.

This is copied from the DVC website:
Memberships not purchased directly from Disney Vacation Development, Inc. on or after March 21, 2011 will not have access to 2012/2013 S.S. Member Cruises.

I spoke with 2 different people at DVC, one was a supervisor, who confirmed the above. I expressed my concern and displeasure over this rule and could not figure it out. Am I not a DVC member? than why am I not allowed to go on a DVC member cruise.

I informed them I knew of the restrictions when I purchased resale including not being able to use points for disney cruises, but not being able to go on a member cruise was not one of them if I wanted to pay cash.

I have a email with a request for a call back concerning the matter. Very, very disappointed in DVC right now. Let me know if I am blowing this out of proportion but this really upsets me.
Thanks for listening to my rant

That's absurd that they won't even let you pay with CASH!! I don't they made THAT part clear did they?

Maistre Gracey
11-14-2011, 04:49 PM
That's absurd that they won't even let you pay with CASH!! I don't they made THAT part clear did they?
I could be wrong, but I believe in order to book the Member Cruise at least one person in your party must pay with points.

MG

disneynutz
11-14-2011, 05:17 PM
I really don't see the big deal about the Member Cruise anyway. Over priced sales pitch with some gifts tossed in to give you a perceived value.

DVC is a business, it's not about being fair. The March restriction was put in place to take away resales and drive people to direct purchase at an inflated price per point.

Your only hope is to contact Member Satisfaction at:

dvcmembersatisfactionteam@disneyvacationclub.com

:earsboy: Bill

bobbiwoz
11-14-2011, 05:19 PM
I could be wrong, but I believe in order to book the Member Cruise at least one person in your party must pay with points.

MG

•Due to the unique nature of these special events, Members are permitted to pay cash for all passengers if they so choose.

So, people don't have to use points at all.

Maistre Gracey
11-14-2011, 05:22 PM
•Due to the unique nature of these special events, Members are permitted to pay cash for all passengers if they so choose.

So, people don't have to use points at all.
Thanks.. Not sure why I thought that was the case.

MG

DebbieB
11-14-2011, 05:23 PM
I could be wrong, but I believe in order to book the Member Cruise at least one person in your party must pay with points.

MG

Doesn't look like it:

Please note the following important booking information about the S.S. Member Cruises:
There is a two stateroom limit per Membership
Due to the unique nature of these special events, Members are permitted to pay cash for all passengers if they so choose.
Disney Vacation Club will waive the initial transaction fee associated with booking your Disney Cruise Line reservation for the S.S. Member Cruise 2012 and 2013.
A non-refundable $95 transaction fee will apply to all modifications associated with an S.S. Member Cruise reservation.
Disney Vacation Club will accept the following methods of payment for Members not using Vacation Points to book the cruise: JCB, Visa, Mastercard, American Express or Discover. If paying by credit card, please have the credit card number, expiration date and the name that appears on the card available. Full payment is required at the time of booking.
Member Services will only accept reservations for S.S. Member Cruise 2012 and 2013 by phone, beginning Sunday, December 11, 2011, starting at 8:00 a.m. EST. Booking requests will not be accepted by fax or email.
For the safety of our Guests, women who have entered their 24th week of pregnancy as of their embarkation date will not be permitted to sail due to safety concerts. Neither a physician's medical statement nor a waiver of liability will be able to override the policy. Disney Cruise Line and Disney Vacation Club cannot be held responsible or liable for any complications relating to pregnancy at any stage.
Disney Cruise Line policy prohibits infants less than 12 weeks of age as of embarkation date to travel.
Memberships not purchased directly from Disney Vacation Development, Inc. on or after March 21, 2011 will not have access to 2012/2013 S.S. Member Cruises.

If they are allowing others to pay all cash, doesn't seem fair.

peacelover
11-14-2011, 05:29 PM
I compared prices for a 3 day cruise later in January 2013 and the regular cruise was about $200 dollars cheaper.

M4travels
11-14-2011, 05:33 PM
If they are allowing others to pay all cash, doesn't seem fair.

As Disneynutz said, it is not about being fair. Those who purchased prior to the March 20 date now have a "perk" that those who purchased after don't have.

Not really bothered by this....

I will say that those cash prices are YIKES!!!

tjkraz
11-14-2011, 05:40 PM
Whew...don't really know how I feel about that. Disney's motivation is pretty apparent. Resale buyers knew they would be treated differently to some degree so is there really room to complain? :confused3 Don't know.

Unfortunately it appears to serve as a warning to folks buying resale that DVC may tweak these rules again at any time, without warning or grandfathering.

I compared prices for a 3 day cruise later in January 2013 and the regular cruise was about $200 dollars cheaper.

Member cruises are typically more expensive than non-member cruises. Staff gratuities have historically been included in the cost of the member cruise. The info for 2012/13 doesn't specifically address this topic, though.

Either way I would expect the member cruise to be higher priced. They do tend to provide some form of unique gifts and entertainment, but you're also paying for the cache of it being a "Member Cruise"!

Dean
11-14-2011, 05:48 PM
They are within their rights but I am surprised by this decision. I suspect the decision will change at some point.

CT_Bev&Jeff
11-14-2011, 05:50 PM
I simply have to say that I am deeply saddened that the 2 tier DVC membership has arrived.

I am going to write DVC regarding this. I don't care about using my points for a cruise, but for someone to be told you are a member, but not member enough to be accepted on the member cruise. You have got to be kidding me!

Our current points are aftermarket pre March 2011 that are FULL DVC membership points, until I ever sell them, then they will be 2nd tier membership points. :confused:


popcorn::

CT_Jeff

bobbiwoz
11-14-2011, 05:50 PM
I compared prices for a 3 day cruise later in January 2013 and the regular cruise was about $200 dollars cheaper.

That's not too bad a differential, since the MC's in the past have had the tips included in the price.
I'm torn, we had bad weather on CC last November, and I imagine there could be a pretty good chance that the ship doesn't get into CC. Yet, the MC isn't all about CC. We went on the one in '05 and thoroughly enjoyed it, and that's with discounting the "presents." I gave most of them away, including most of the pins, I'm not a collector. I really enjoyed the companionship of the members on the cruise, and the special entertainment.
DH and I had planned a Princess partial crossing of the Panama Canal that January. I'm really torn, I wonder if we can do both, back to back?:)

OP, I'm sorry about the position you are in. There has been talk of "tiered" memberships here in the past. We thought it was going to reward people with many points, but it seems that DVC may be going the route of ostracizing, not rewarding. I'm sad about that. They've practically stopped exercising ROFR, but then they punish the people for buying perceived bargains. Our MC was fun and worthwhile.

tjkraz
11-14-2011, 05:57 PM
I suspect the decision will change at some point.

Maybe. The cynic in me suspects it will depend entirely on how successful they are in filling two ships within a 5-month span. I'm sure the restriction was thoroughly debated and DVC is going into this with eyes wide open.

And there can't be many members at present who only own resale points purchased in the last 8 months. A couple dozen? A couple hundred?

DVC's only response may be to recommend a 25-pt direct add on purchase.

aan1701
11-14-2011, 05:58 PM
I am going to be blunt. I am sorry for the OP but if I were buying resale I would not expect to do anything but stay at a DVC resort period. I personaly think they have made it clear. Sorry OP I think you have every right to blow off steam but in the end you are not entitled to go.

bobbiwoz
11-14-2011, 06:06 PM
...
DVC's only response may be to recommend a 25-pt direct add on purchase.

Would this be enough? A membership may be defined as 100, who knows? I would have assumed that a member had a membership in DVC, but they are defining it differently than I would.

disneynutz
11-14-2011, 06:08 PM
I am going to be blunt. I am sorry for the OP but if I were buying resale I would not expect to do anything but stay at a DVC resort period. I personaly think they have made it clear. Sorry OP I think you have every right to blow off steam but in the end you are not entitled to go.

In this case that might not be true. Until the OP contacts Member Satisfaction and gets the official answer, they still may be able to go.

:earsboy: Bill

mousefan1972
11-14-2011, 06:10 PM
I am going to be blunt. I am sorry for the OP but if I were buying resale I would not expect to do anything but stay at a DVC resort period. I personaly think they have made it clear. Sorry OP I think you have every right to blow off steam but in the end you are not entitled to go.

I would tend to agree. When the resale restrictions were put into effect, it was quite common to read how resale purchasers were saving so much money over buying direct that it was well worth losing the "perks". Also, I recall reading many comments here on the DIS that DVC was doing resale purchasers a favor by not allowing them to use points for the Concierge, Adventurer, or Disney collections, since those are perceived to be not the best use of one's points.

The saying "you can't have your cake and eat it, too" comes to mind....

mousefan1972
11-14-2011, 06:13 PM
In this case that might not be true. Until the OP contacts Member Satisfaction and gets the official answer, they still may be able to go.

:earsboy: Bill

What makes you say that? This seems pretty "official" to me:

•Memberships not purchased directly from Disney Vacation Development, Inc. on or after March 21, 2011 will not have access to 2012/2013 S.S. Member Cruises.

That was copied and pasted from my online DVC account. Seems pretty clear to me that if the OP only owns resale purchased on or after March 21, 2011, he/she can NOT go on either Member Cruise. Emailing Member Satisfaction isn't going to change anything.

Anal Annie
11-14-2011, 06:33 PM
We love our DCl's but I would NOT pay a cent more than we HAVE to in order to go on one of them. I've always been irked that they were in the fall when kids are in school. So now they go & add a 2nd one ALSO during the school year.:sad2: That tells me they could give a rats behind about members with school aged kids. I doubt we'll ever get suckered into one of these. The shorter cruises are a worse value per night anyway...I can't imagine the additional cost being worthwhile.

quirty30
11-14-2011, 06:41 PM
I've always been irked that they were in the fall when kids are in school. So now they go & add a 2nd one ALSO during the school year.:sad2: That tells me they could give a rats behind about members with school aged kids.

Totally agree with this. It's a pretty safe bet that DVC attracts many members with kids. I would love to do a member cruise, but with kids in junior high and high school starting next year, there is no way I can justify it. I was so disappointed when I read the email and saw that neither option would work for us.

tjkraz
11-14-2011, 06:49 PM
I've always been irked that they were in the fall when kids are in school. So now they go & add a 2nd one ALSO during the school year.:sad2: That tells me they could give a rats behind about members with school aged kids.

Disney Cruise Line is largely to blame for that. They won't allow charters during peak travel periods--at least not at a favorable rate.

Even the disparity in point charts doesn't reflect the premium price DCL charges for vacation-period cruises. They'll allow some points bookings and those who book 18-24 months out can get decent rates. But as the ship climbs closer to capacity, guests are truly gouged in the rates for sailing dates that fall during a vacation.

Even if DCL were to allow DVC to charter an entire voyage during a vacation period, the prices would be astronomical.

kyle051777
11-14-2011, 06:51 PM
I appreciate all the comments whether for or against my position. Just to clarify, I had been through a DVC presentation and researched online for about a month to see which way I wanted to go (direct or resale). I knew what perks I would lose by going resale, but as I believe a majority of members on this board felt, it was not really worth the extra bucks. I paid $55 less per point buying resale and purchased 316 points saving me over $17,000.

The issue I have is that I AM a DVC member. I have the membership card to prove it. So why I would not be allowed on a member cruise is beyond me. This is not in any of my paperwork. I looked twice. I will let everyone know when I get a response back from dvc satisfaction team. I also realize DVC can change anything they want whenever they want.

I am just very disappointed that DVC has decided to go this route, as someone mentioned earlier I hope they rethink there position.

aan1701
11-14-2011, 06:56 PM
I am not a lawyer but I am sure somewhere it says somewhere in your contract that you can't use your membership for the Disney Colection. DCL is part of that, Members Cruise or not, it is still part of that colection and thus, those who by resale may not go.

ldo
11-14-2011, 07:34 PM
so sorry for OP. I clearly understood not being able to use resale points for purchase of cruises, but would not have thought this meant not being allowed to go on a DVC member cruise. The DCL/WDW collection resale rule is similar to other timeshares, such as Marriott, where resale buyers cannot convert their timeshare weeks to Marriott points to be used at M hotels, etc.
But, where you can book for cash and not use your DVc points at all--seems like that could have been specified a little clearer.
I also have no use for the DVC member cruises--the Sept/Oct ones are at a terrible time to cruise and now even the winter one is when kids are in school.
As a consolation prize, book yourself on a couple of DCL cruises with the $$$ you saved buying resale and enjoy staying at DVC for 1/2 the capital outlay. Elaine (ps--we bought a timeshare resale 5 years ago and were told this past year that only the new "floating" weeks bought from developer were eligible to join Interval International--something that marketing whipped up to try to increase direct sales,
I assume. OK, so we can only deposit our week with RCI, not II--since we saved about $20K, I can stomach that.)

Inkmahm
11-14-2011, 08:23 PM
I just received the email like I am sure most of you did but to my surprise it states that I am not allowed to go on a member cruise because I purchased resale after 3/2011.

This is copied from the DVC website:
Memberships not purchased directly from Disney Vacation Development, Inc. on or after March 21, 2011 will not have access to 2012/2013 S.S. Member Cruises.

I spoke with 2 different people at DVC, one was a supervisor, who confirmed the above. I expressed my concern and displeasure over this rule and could not figure it out. Am I not a DVC member? than why am I not allowed to go on a DVC member cruise.

I informed them I knew of the restrictions when I purchased resale including not being able to use points for disney cruises, but not being able to go on a member cruise was not one of them if I wanted to pay cash.

I have a email with a request for a call back concerning the matter. Very, very disappointed in DVC right now. Let me know if I am blowing this out of proportion but this really upsets me.
Thanks for listening to my rant

I have to say that I knew resale points wouldn't be allowed to be used for cruises but I didn't know that meant you couldn't do the member cruise on cash. That would only make sense to me if you had to use points to cruise and your points didn't qualify. Your cash is as green as mine.

CMOORE185
11-14-2011, 08:32 PM
Those cruises book very fast and every year there are alot of disappointed members that don't get on the cruise. My guess is they want to reward those who buy from them direct. I guess one cannot blame them for that.

DisneyBill
11-14-2011, 09:23 PM
Perhaps DVC should rename the event, "DVC Direct Member Cruise".
I think this is small minded micro manipulation.
Let me guess, the DVC sales guides are going to hype this restriction as a benefit to buying direct? So you can spend more to cruise DCL on the MC?

disneynutz
11-14-2011, 10:01 PM
What makes you say that? This seems pretty "official" to me:

•Memberships not purchased directly from Disney Vacation Development, Inc. on or after March 21, 2011 will not have access to 2012/2013 S.S. Member Cruises.

That was copied and pasted from my online DVC account. Seems pretty clear to me that if the OP only owns resale purchased on or after March 21, 2011, he/she can NOT go on either Member Cruise. Emailing Member Satisfaction isn't going to change anything.

I stand corrected. I was trying to give Disney a chance to correct a miss understanding when there wasn't one.

:earsboy: Bill

eyeheartgoofy
11-14-2011, 10:17 PM
I would be irritated, OP. What's next ... are people who purchased resale going to be given a different colored membership card that doesn't allow access to free DVD rentals at the resorts???? :sad2:

Sammie
11-14-2011, 10:57 PM
Whew...don't really know how I feel about that. Disney's motivation is pretty apparent. Resale buyers knew they would be treated differently to some degree so is there really room to complain? :confused3 Don't know.

Unfortunately it appears to serve as a warning to folks buying resale that DVC may tweak these rules again at any time, without warning or grandfathering.



Member cruises are typically more expensive than non-member cruises. Staff gratuities have historically been included in the cost of the member cruise. The info for 2012/13 doesn't specifically address this topic, though.

Either way I would expect the member cruise to be higher priced. They do tend to provide some form of unique gifts and entertainment, but you're also paying for the cache of it being a "Member Cruise"!

Not sure what the new plans will be now that Jim Lewis is gone but he was very adamant that going forward there would be more restrictions to resale versus direct sales.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the future.

tammymacb
11-15-2011, 05:51 AM
I own almost 600 points. Almost all of them are resale purchased prior to the changes. I do own 120 direct points, which are worth half what I paid for them.

I totally agree with the Op. It is a DVC *Member's* Cruise. The Op is a member. I can see if he couldn't use his points to book, but he should be allowed to pay cash. The day that the purchaser of a resale is no longer a member, will be a very bad day for all of us. Because, no matter what any of us say, there just may be a day you need to sell. And I'd be angrier if I was a direct purchaser than a resale owner. At least I don't have as much investment to lose.

MiaSRN62
11-15-2011, 06:47 AM
To the OP.....while I am sure DVC is within their right, this certainly would make a DVC MEMBER of resale contracts feel like a second class citizen. I just cannot understand why, if you chose to pay cash, you would not be allowed on a MEMBER cruise ? You pay annual dues/taxes.....and have a MEMBER number and all like the rest of us ? Sorry.....just doesn't seem right to me ?

tjkraz
11-15-2011, 06:55 AM
Semantics would appear to have little meaning. I think it's clear that going forward DVC will be looking at more and more ways to reward (?) those who buy direct.

horselover
11-15-2011, 06:58 AM
I am going to be blunt. I am sorry for the OP but if I were buying resale I would not expect to do anything but stay at a DVC resort period. I personaly think they have made it clear. Sorry OP I think you have every right to blow off steam but in the end you are not entitled to go.

No they did not make it clear. When the new resale restrictions were announced they said you can't use your resale points for DCL, Disney collection, etc. They did not say you aren't considered a member in terms of a member cruise even if you want to pay cash.

To the OP.....while I am sure DVC is within their right, this certainly would make a DVC MEMBER of resale contracts feel like a second class citizen. I just cannot understand why, if you chose to pay cash, you would not be allowed on a MEMBER cruise ? You pay annual dues/taxes.....and have a MEMBER number and all like the rest of us ? Sorry.....just doesn't seem right to me ?

ITA. If you have a member # you're a member at least in my book. I'm not happy about this new rule & it's not because it affects me. I just think it's wrong & unnecessary. Maybe if DVC didn't decide to drive their direct prices up to such ridiculous levels they would not have seen such an increase in resale buyers. They created this situation with their own greed & now they're going to punish us. Bad, bad call on their part.

BigEeyore
11-15-2011, 07:20 AM
I completely agree with you - I thought it was the wrong thing for DVC to start differentiating between direct and resale buyers. Maybe under the new management, things will change...

htmlkid
11-15-2011, 07:26 AM
I think you are all missing the point here. Disney only wants direct sales members onboard so they can direct sell them more points onboard. They know that if you purchased AKV on a resell at $60 they are not going to be able to convince you to purchase more points at $120.

If you think Disney is "only" doing the cruise to thank you, you mistaken, they are charging you more to come with the intentions of selling you on more points.

ToddyLu
11-15-2011, 07:35 AM
:mad: Not only does the OP have a point...but...my DH specifically took vacation during the Member's Cruise in October next year. He has to pick out vacation a year ahead. I knew it would be hard to book becasue of the demand...but now there is no chance of going with his vacation set in stone and it being in a completely different month. I do not want to cruise in January.

This whole thing really chaps my a**. I have been waiting since the Disney Files to book. Now they have completely changed everything. Even with drinking the Disney koolaid, I have now choked and gagged.

:headache::mad::headache::mad:

I think I will send an email or something when I get home from work....and yes, we did purchase all 210 points DIRECT!

peacelover
11-15-2011, 07:57 AM
That's not too bad a differential, since the MC's in the past have had the tips included in the price.
I'm torn, we had bad weather on CC last November, and I imagine there could be a pretty good chance that the ship doesn't get into CC. Yet, the MC isn't all about CC. We went on the one in '05 and thoroughly enjoyed it, and that's with discounting the "presents." I gave most of them away, including most of the pins, I'm not a collector. I really enjoyed the companionship of the members on the cruise, and the special entertainment.
DH and I had planned a Princess partial crossing of the Panama Canal that January. I'm really torn, I wonder if we can do both, back to back?:)

OP, I'm sorry about the position you are in. There has been talk of "tiered" memberships here in the past. We thought it was going to reward people with many points, but it seems that DVC may be going the route of ostracizing, not rewarding. I'm sad about that. They've practically stopped exercising ROFR, but then they punish the people for buying perceived bargains. Our MC was fun and worthwhile.

I looked at it again.....a 3 day cruise would be $350 per person more expensive on the member cruise. A 4 day cruise would be about $1000 more for 2ppl. Is a member cruise that much better? Just wondering, I have never taken one.

Chuck S
11-15-2011, 08:09 AM
I would be irritated, OP. What's next ... are people who purchased resale going to be given a different colored membership card that doesn't allow access to free DVD rentals at the resorts???? :sad2:

Different membership cards, restricting discounts to only direct purchasers would not surprise me at all. DVC IS at its core, a sales driven timeshare. Many other timeshare brands, including the higher end brands, restrict some perks and usage to those that purchase direct.

I own almost 600 points. Almost all of them are resale purchased prior to the changes. I do own 120 direct points, which are worth half what I paid for them.

I totally agree with the Op. It is a DVC *Member's* Cruise. The Op is a member. I can see if he couldn't use his points to book, but he should be allowed to pay cash. The day that the purchaser of a resale is no longer a member, will be a very bad day for all of us. Because, no matter what any of us say, there just may be a day you need to sell. And I'd be angrier if I was a direct purchaser than a resale owner. At least I don't have as much investment to lose.

It depends upon how you place a value on the timeshare. Is the resale value "the value." Most owners of other timeshares will tell you that the "value" of a timeshare is in your use of the timeshare, not in what it will bring resale...many, many timeshares resale for little or nothing. I've even heard of people paying others to take them off their hands.

Caren90
11-15-2011, 08:33 AM
I think you are all missing the point here. Disney only wants direct sales members onboard so they can direct sell them more points onboard. They know that if you purchased AKV on a resell at $60 they are not going to be able to convince you to purchase more points at $120.

If you think Disney is "only" doing the cruise to thank you, you mistaken, they are charging you more to come with the intentions of selling you on more points.

Never have truer words been spoken!

jarestel
11-15-2011, 08:41 AM
It seems that DVC's position regarding resales going forward will pretty much mirror the conventional wisdom of the DISBoards - purchase resale with the intention of staying at DVC resorts.

Having said that, I suspect all "restricted" memberships will be welcomed aboard with open arms if DVC fails to sell out the two cruises.

wdrl
11-15-2011, 08:45 AM
Not sure what the new plans will be now that Jim Lewis is gone but he was very adamant that going forward there would be more restrictions to resale versus direct sales.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the future.

Jim Lewis has been gone for several months, but he still gets the blame. I guess Claire Bilby's honeymoon continues ;)

tammymacb
11-15-2011, 08:52 AM
It depends upon how you place a value on the timeshare. Is the resale value "the value." Most owners of other timeshares will tell you that the "value" of a timeshare is in your use of the timeshare, not in what it will bring resale...many, many timeshares resale for little or nothing. I've even heard of people paying others to take them off their hands.

I agree with you. When you buy you should factor your use as the main factor. I own HHI points I've paid $40 for, and BWV points I paid $50 for. I've done several trips, the Member's Cruise. They're paid for. So, in my case, if I sell, I'll have gotten my value for them.

But, when you go to a sales pitch for $150+ per point and tell the guide that, "I'm 40, I won't be using these points 50 years from now. And I'm not comfortable giving debt to my family as a gift by way of MFs", in the past, you were told ( and true ) that the points held their value well. It was part of the sales pitch that all was safe with Disney. Well, they obviously can't say that now. And at 150 per point, you're in for a huge hit from every angle.

I understand "why" Disney is doing this, I just don't think it's the best move for member's as a whole.

edk35
11-15-2011, 09:01 AM
It seems that DVC's position regarding resales going forward will pretty much mirror the conventional wisdom of the DISBoards - purchase resale with the intention of staying at DVC resorts.

Having said that, I suspect all "restricted" memberships will be welcomed aboard with open arms if DVC fails to sell out the two cruises.


:worship: AMEN

Brian Noble
11-15-2011, 09:52 AM
So, I'm part of the Great Unwashed, so perhaps I don't "get it." But, if you can't book the Member's Cruise, so what?

Do you get a few extra baubles that "ordinary people" don't get? Sure. Is there a show or two that "ordinary people" can't see? Probably. But, it's not as though the "ordinary people" cruises aren't also tons of fun---they are, I've done one.

I suppose it's possible that magical awesomeness happens on the Member Cruises, and the Members are all hush hush about it. (Does anyone else remember the SNL skit when Eddie Murphy went "undercover" as a white man (http://www.hulu.com/watch/10356/saturday-night-live-white-like-me)?) But it's more likely that this is just another way to create a "sense of scarcity". Creating something that is a nice little perk but with little real value, and then telling people they can't have it unless they fork over big bucks to Mickey for a full-freight timeshare.

"Oooh, shiny! Here's my checkbook!"

keaster
11-15-2011, 10:15 AM
I'm not a fan of the 3 and 4 night cruises (too short!)

Also...the points needed for the DVC member cruise are more than what they are for the 7 night Fantasy cruise we are going on in March 2013.

BEASLYBOO
11-15-2011, 10:31 AM
The OP says she was aware that buying resale after 3/11 would have limitations. Were those limitation fully discussed/disclosed prior to that purchase, who knows? Some of that stuff in tiny print? It's unfortunate that you feel your not getting a benefit you feel you should be entitled to pay cash for. Can MS make an exception? Was the restrictions legal verbage extenvive enough to cover every scenario or will it be up to DVC to make up the rules as these issues come up.

Fortunately/Unfortunately MS depending on who you talk too or how many times you call may give you different answers to the same question.

Were I to add points, I would still buy resale, for me the cruises & other travel options don't matter, nor would I feel like a second class DVC'r doing so!

Good luck to you!

wdrl
11-15-2011, 10:52 AM
As far as I know, the only notification** given by Disney to resale buyers about restrictions in the use of resale points is via the Notice of Waiver of Right of First Refusal. Beginning in late June 2011, DVD modified the language on the Notices of Waiver that it issues when it waives its Right of First Refusal on resale transactions. A new paragraph was added for those transactions in which the Owner is selling their points to a third party. The Notices now include the follow paragraph:

Members purchasing their Ownership Interest in any DVC Resort from a person or entity other than directly from DVD shall not be able to use the Vacation Points associated with that Ownership Interest for reservations or stays through the Incidental Benefits known as the Adventurer Collection, Concierge Collection, or The Disney Collection. Do not purchase your Ownership Interest in reliance on your ability to transfer these products, services and Incidental Benefits if you sell your Ownership Interest or based upon their continued availability.

The standard contract that the Timeshare Store uses for resale transactions also has similar language.

**EDITED to add - I shouldn't have said this was the "only" notification. In addition to the Notice of Waiver, the Home Resort Rules and Regulations that are part of the Master Declaration for each resort reflects this change.

Chuck S
11-15-2011, 10:55 AM
But, when you go to a sales pitch for $150+ per point and tell the guide that, "I'm 40, I won't be using these points 50 years from now. And I'm not comfortable giving debt to my family as a gift by way of MFs", in the past, you were told ( and true ) that the points held their value well.

True, but even we early direct purchasers had to know that at some time, as the contracts were limited use and not eternal, that the resale value would be $0 at some point. It is only common sense.

Someone who is in their 40s and buying DVC, statistically should be able to use it for 30+ years. With a contract end date at most of 50 years use, it seems common sense would say, "Gee, with 20 years left the contract probably won't be worth much to my heirs." I truly don't understand people that would expect a limited use timeshare to hold a high resale value up until the last day of the contract.

DenLo
11-15-2011, 11:11 AM
The DVC Member Benefits Guide has an added paragraph plus the one mentioned in wdrl's post.

INCIDENTAL BENEFITS MAY NOT BE HYPOTHECATED, BOUGHT, SOLD, EXCHANGED, RENTED OR OTHERWISE TRANSFERRED, EXCEPT UPON WRITTEN APPROVAL OF DVD, AND ARE SOLELY FOR YOUR BENEFIT AND NOT FOR THE BENEFIT OF YOUR ASSIGNS OR SUCCESSORS-IN-INTEREST. IF YOU SELL YOUR OWNERSHIP INTEREST, INCIDENTAL BENEFITS DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY TRANSFER TO YOUR BUYER. THE AVAILABILITY OF INCIDENTAL BENEFITS MAY OR MAY NOT BE RENEWED OR EXTENDED TO SUCH ASSIGNS OR SUCCESSORS-IN INTEREST. DVD RESERVES THE RIGHT, IN ITS SOLE, ABSOLUTE AND UNFETTERED DISCRETION, TO ELECT TO PERMIT TRANSFER OF ANY ONE OR MORE INCIDENTAL BENEFITS, AND, IF IT DOES SO, MAY REQUIRE PAYMENT OF FEES AND/OR CHARGES AS A CONDITION TO TRANSFER.
DO NOT PURCHASE YOUR OWNERSHIP INTEREST IN RELIANCE ON YOUR ABILITY TO TRANSFER THESE BENEFITS IF YOU SELL YOUR OWNERSHIP INTEREST.

BEGINNING MARCH 21, 2011, MEMBERS WHO PURCHASE OWNERSHIP INTERESTS IN ANY DVC RESORT FROM A PERSON OR ENTITY OTHER THAN DIRECTLY FROM DVD SHALL NOT BE ABLE TO USE THE VACATION POINTS ASSOCIATED WITH THAT OWNERSHIP INTEREST FOR RESERVATIONS OR STAYS THROUGH THE INCIDENTAL BENEFITS KNOWN AS THE ADVENTURER COLLECTION, CONCIERGE COLLECTION OR DISNEY COLLECTION.

It looks like DVD is saying that the Disney Member Cruise is an incidental benefit of buying direct. I wonder if the Merry Mixer and Welcome Home Wednesdays will be limited in future?

My complaint about this change is that the DVC allows members to bring guests on the member cruise. So why are guests allowed this DVC benefit? But resale members who have a DVC Member card cannot pay cash for the member cruise? But when I really think about it the children of members are technically guests because they are too young to be on a deed. This gets complicated quickly.

As far as I can tell there is no reason DVD cannot in the future take away these perks from all resale members. There is nothing in writing that says everyone that purchased before March 21, 2011 is permanently exempt.

tjkraz
11-15-2011, 11:15 AM
But, when you go to a sales pitch for $150+ per point and tell the guide that, "I'm 40, I won't be using these points 50 years from now. And I'm not comfortable giving debt to my family as a gift by way of MFs", in the past, you were told ( and true ) that the points held their value well. It was part of the sales pitch that all was safe with Disney. Well, they obviously can't say that now. And at 150 per point, you're in for a huge hit from every angle.

You're generalizing, though.

The only thing DVC is selling for $150 per point is BLT add-on contracts of 49 or under. With incentives, the net prices are $138-140 per point on BLT for any first-time purchase or 50+ pt add-on.

The Timeshare Store has BLT listings over $100 per point. The median appears to be about $95-97 per point, which is a 30% discount off of direct pricing. With the exception of BCV--which has always bucked the trends--that resale spread isn't far off of the long-term history for DVC.

The other resorts in active sales--SSR and AKV--have a similar resale discount of approximately 30%.

Other resorts are going for less but those prices are influenced by supply & demand, low years remaining and annual dues rates.

A HHI resale contract purchased for $40 per point is a great way to get into the system and may lead to tremendous 7 month booking success. But it doesn't have any bearing on the future resale value of BLT points.

lugnut33
11-15-2011, 11:36 AM
I don't care what anybody says, but DVC not allowing a DVC member to purchase a Member's Cruise is just plain silly. Kafka would be proud.

smjj
11-15-2011, 11:37 AM
When I read this was going to happen back when, I was glad we were already in the system and thus exempt from the rule. I however thought that the Member's cruise would not be included since it was DVC sponsored. I feel for those who have gotten dinged by DVC trying to force people to pay the much higher rate than going the resale market like so many us have done. I would had gladly bought DVC from them had I not thought I was getting ripped off.
The last Member's Cruise(2011) we took will probably be our last anyway. They are just to expensive and they have turned in to nothing more than a captive audience for the sales pitches they are constantly throwing at you. Heck the free stuff this time was in our opinion very lame at best. We did have a good time but decided there are better ways to spent our DVC points. We have been on two and that is enough....smjj

Chuck S
11-15-2011, 12:01 PM
I don't care what anybody says, but DVC not allowing a DVC member to purchase a Member's Cruise is just plain silly.

I agree to a point. IF they require that the member cruise have the primary traveler booked on points, then the rest payable in cash...it would exclude the resale purchasers. But, IF direct purchasers are allowed to pay all cash, then I personally see no reason why resale people should not be able to book all cash.

But it is DVC/Disney's playground, they can set the rules.

I honestly don't know what the booking rules are, as I really don't have an interest in cruising. Maybe at some point in the future, but right now, sailing on a cruise ship just doesn't hold any interest for me.

Brian Noble
11-15-2011, 12:26 PM
It looks like DVD is saying that the Disney Member Cruise is an incidental benefit of buying direct.
I don't even think it's that complicated.

Disney is offering a particular cruise, for cash, only to a subset of its potential customer base. As long as DCL is not using a "protected class" (race, gender, etc.) to define who is in and who is out, they can do what they as a private company. For example, they could tomorrow decide that some particular cruise will only be available to residents of Georgia and Florida, if they so chose.

The only reason they would need to *exclude* the cruise was if there was some other passage in the documents that suggested Members were *entitled* to the opportunity to purchase a for-cash Members-only cruise. I suspect no such passage exists.

SmilingGrump
11-15-2011, 02:13 PM
The more they restrictions they put on resales, the more they water down the value of direct sales. Many (most?) people who have purchased a DVC membership do so with the idea that if they ever decide to sell, there will be some value to their membership. Sure, that value will go down as there is less time left on the contract, but it's a fairly steady decline. Ripping benefits out of resales (no matter how minimal the benefit) greatly accelerates that decline AND it makes their customers quite bitter. It will take a bit of time to see that ripple effect, but Disney is shooting themselves in the foot. Resale buyers will be spending much less at the Parks out of spite and when word gets widely spread, new sales will drop because there's no way to tell what they'll rip out next and therefore no way to gauge what value their contract will have in 10, 20, or 30 years.

They'd be MUCH wiser to offer incentives to purchase direct. An extra discount on APs, TIW cards, or something like that. It doesn't even have to be a BIG discount, just a little extra something that makes direct buyers feel extra special.

Bribery works much better then coercion.

tjkraz
11-15-2011, 02:37 PM
The more they restrictions they put on resales, the more they water down the value of direct sales. Many (most?) people who have purchased a DVC membership do so with the idea that if they ever decide to sell, there will be some value to their membership.

I'll have to politely disagree with that one. I don't think most buyers give more than a fleeting thought to resale. 75% of buyers finance their purchase. As far as the masses go, I think their only real questions buyers ask themselves are 1) can I afford the monthly payments, and 2) how quickly can I plan my first trip to WDW after I buy.

Sure, that value will go down as there is less time left on the contract, but it's a fairly steady decline. Ripping benefits out of resales (no matter how minimal the benefit) greatly accelerates that decline AND it makes their customers quite bitter.

Has there been any evidence of the greatly accelerated decline since March 2011?

I realize this is a somewhat distasteful topic to discuss and I'm not concluding that Disney is correct. But it's obvious they intend to take steps to protect their market in light of increased pressure from resales.

Disney is finally discovering what others in the timeshare industry have known for years--it's much harder to sell "new" when buyers can get resales for a fraction of the price. Good will and pixie dust don't sway purchasing decisions when a buyer is deciding between AKV for $110 and HHI for $40.

disneynutz
11-15-2011, 02:51 PM
The more they restrictions they put on resales, the more they water down the value of direct sales. Many (most?) people who have purchased a DVC membership do so with the idea that if they ever decide to sell, there will be some value to their membership. Sure, that value will go down as there is less time left on the contract, but it's a fairly steady decline. Ripping benefits out of resales (no matter how minimal the benefit) greatly accelerates that decline AND it makes their customers quite bitter. It will take a bit of time to see that ripple effect, but Disney is shooting themselves in the foot. Resale buyers will be spending much less at the Parks out of spite and when word gets widely spread, new sales will drop because there's no way to tell what they'll rip out next and therefore no way to gauge what value their contract will have in 10, 20, or 30 years.

They'd be MUCH wiser to offer incentives to purchase direct. An extra discount on APs, TIW cards, or something like that. It doesn't even have to be a BIG discount, just a little extra something that makes direct buyers feel extra special.

Bribery works much better then coercion.

Lack of ROFR has also caused resale prices to drop along with the current economy. If Disney continues to get enough inventory through foreclosures, they will never pick up contracts through ROFR.

We purchased some additional VWL resale points two years ago and they have lost around $30 per point in value.

:earsboy: Bill

Chuck S
11-15-2011, 02:59 PM
... therefore no way to gauge what value their contract will have in 10, 20, or 30 years.



When was there ever a way to gauge what something will be worth in 10, 20 or 30 years from now?

For ANY timeshare, the value is in the personal use of the property. Anyone who purchases any RTU limited lease time timeshare thinking there is going to be substantial resale value 10, 20 or 30 years down the road has not done their homework.

Greysword
11-15-2011, 03:18 PM
Mark the calendar, as the reaction by the OP is priceless, in that it is the first of a (likely) long list of complainers as DVC moves forward with the anticipated tiered value system. We anticipated the system would separate memberships based on new benefits; instead, it seems DVD has decided to make the distinction based on restrictions (the only two actions thus far have been point use and now the availability of the cruise). Thus, the next volley will likely also be restriction based instead of intensives, so be prepared.

What current incentives offered by DVC would make you the MOST angry if you lost it due to purchasing points resale versus retail? What would you do if they decided to take that away?

This announcement is creating an exciting social science experiment, which can be viewed in different ways depending on the discipline employed (economics, sociology, psychology, and others).

I own almost 600 points. Almost all of them are resale purchased prior to the changes. I do own 120 direct points, which are worth half what I paid for them.

I totally agree with the Op. It is a DVC *Member's* Cruise. The Op is a member. I can see if he couldn't use his points to book, but he should be allowed to pay cash. The day that the purchaser of a resale is no longer a member, will be a very bad day for all of us. Because, no matter what any of us say, there just may be a day you need to sell. And I'd be angrier if I was a direct purchaser than a resale owner. At least I don't have as much investment to lose.

No they did not make it clear. When the new resale restrictions were announced they said you can't use your resale points for DCL, Disney collection, etc. They did not say you aren't considered a member in terms of a member cruise even if you want to pay cash.

ITA. If you have a member # you're a member at least in my book. I'm not happy about this new rule & it's not because it affects me. I just think it's wrong & unnecessary... They created this situation with their own greed & now they're going to punish us. Bad, bad call on their part. I propose that the comments above are indicative of many reactions on here, and are missing the big picture completely. :flower3:

This decision is likely primarily economically driven. DVC/DCL does not owe us a member's cruise. They do it to tap a reliable market for them in an effort to fill a ship during the off season for cruising. This is also why they don't offer it during the summer, as Annie and others have lamented. They don't need help filling the ships during the normal vacation time frame. However, they do need help during the hurricane and school seasons, thus they are tapping a reliable customer base to assist.

I am also interested in the common reaction on here, in that the we should have learned our lesson on DVC perks. The fervor we are now witnessing is the same as when valet parking was no longer free. The member's Cruise should be considered a perk instead of an entitlement, and like other perks the mouse giveth and the mouse taketh away with little to no warning. Be prepared, it will happen again.

The bottom line(s) are thus:
1) Walt Disney (with all its subsidiaries) is a company, and they will do what they need to remain in business and profitable (in that order). Their responsibility is to their shareholders, not us. It sucks, but we need to understand this in order to realize what is really occurring. The Member's Cruise may have helped sell a few points, but it is actually in place to help the cruise line bolster its profit margin.

2) We need to keep repeating rule #2 here in the Dis-DVC boards: all we pay for is a clean well kept room at our home resort; our membership is nothing more than that. Perks will come and perks will go, including the ability to stay at other DVC resorts. It seems harsh, but this is repeated so much on here and seems to be forgotten when something big happens, and we revert back to the magic we were promised.

3) Changes to our DVC membership are upon us. As has been discussed, it is probable that DVD is attempting to establish a tiered membership base. What this means is that those who purchase points via resale will have access to a different (and as seen thus far, much reduced) perks and benefits outside of their home resort. Members will have the equal status within their home resort, regardless where/how they purchased their points. However, outside of their home resorts is a different matter. A perk at your home resort (such as free video rentals) will remain the same for all, since it is based on monthly fees, but perks outside of this realm will likely be more restricted. Be prepared for more harsh restrictions (AP discounts, booking windows, etc)!

I had the same initial feelings as many on these boards. That said, once the initial shock wore off, it is fascinating to take a step back and look at what is really going on and how we (the masses) are reacting to this (relatively minor with a very small affect on the DVC membership whole) news. I can only imagine what will happen if DVC/DVD restricts booking between DVC resorts (especially new yet to be built ones) or if more segmentation of the population occurs based on number of points owned (only members with 500 or more direct purchase points can get on the Member Cruise).

Brian Noble
11-15-2011, 03:26 PM
The more they restrictions they put on resales, the more they water down the value of direct sales.
You would think so, but in practice it does not appear to work that way with any other timeshare system that differentiates between direct and secondary-market purchasers---which is to say, almost all of them: Wyndham, WorldMark, Bluegreen, Marriott, etc. etc. etc.

Lack of ROFR has also caused resale prices to drop along with the current economy.
I suspect that if you look carefully at the data, you will see that the drop began long before ROFR was abandoned, and its abandonment did not significantly accelerate the rate of decline as a "knee in the curve". It's true that foreclosures have probably supplied Mickey with more inventory than he ever wanted at some of these resorts, but it's *also* true that there are a lot of completely "brand new" unsold points still to flog. As long as there are still unsold units, there's no need *at all* to ROFR anything. In fact, if DVC follows the same rules-of-thumb that most other timeshare systems do (about 1/2 of development cost is marketing, etc.) it will probably be more profitable to continue to build *new* resorts and sell them vs. ROFR *old* resorts and market those until secondary market prices fall significantly farther.

This decision is likely primarily economically driven. DVC/DCL does not owe us a member's cruise. They do it to tap a reliable market for them in an effort to fill a ship during the off season for cruising.
It's *also* to get a marketing opportunity to sell more DVC points into a set of people who are more willing to buy than the average DCL guest. Recent resale-only Members are not likely to ever buy full-freight points from Disney, so why invite them when you can invite someone who might?

tammymacb
11-15-2011, 03:26 PM
I wonder if anyone has called yet that is a very small ( 25 point or so ) direct buyer( to supplement a larger original contract )? If you have *any* direct points, my guess is they'll let you book the cruise on cash. But, I'm still curious.

wdrl
11-15-2011, 03:30 PM
The more they restrictions they put on resales, the more they water down the value of direct sales. Many (most?) people who have purchased a DVC membership do so with the idea that if they ever decide to sell, there will be some value to their membership. Sure, that value will go down as there is less time left on the contract, but it's a fairly steady decline. Ripping benefits out of resales (no matter how minimal the benefit) greatly accelerates that decline AND it makes their customers quite bitter. It will take a bit of time to see that ripple effect, but Disney is shooting themselves in the foot. Resale buyers will be spending much less at the Parks out of spite and when word gets widely spread, new sales will drop because there's no way to tell what they'll rip out next and therefore no way to gauge what value their contract will have in 10, 20, or 30 years.



It would be nice if there was any empirical data to support your statements that resale prices are falling because of the loss of exchange privileges. If you look at the data reported on Donald is #1's thread on resale activity, you'll see that resale prices have been declining since at least 2008, if not before. This is well before Disney announced any changes to the exchange privileges for resale owners.

Let me put it another way: If Disney reversed its policy and let resale owners use their points for the Adventure, Concierge, and Disney Collections, do you think that resales prices will go up $5, $10, or $15 a point? I don't think so.

I respectfully disagree that resale buyers "will be spending much less at the Parks out of spite." Why buy into a Disney timeshare if you plan on boycotting the Parks? As others have said, the value of a timeshare is in its use and enjoyment.

Greysword
11-15-2011, 04:45 PM
I wonder if anyone has called yet that is a very small ( 25 point or so ) direct buyer( to supplement a larger original contract )? If you have *any* direct points, my guess is they'll let you book the cruise on cash. But, I'm still curious.This is a good point, and I was curious myself. The way it is written, it leaves room to exclude anyone with resale points, but I'd be more taken back if this was enforced. That said, Disney does employ ambiguity on purpose.

Sammie
11-15-2011, 05:07 PM
Jim Lewis has been gone for several months, but he still gets the blame. I guess Claire Bilby's honeymoon continues ;)

Actually it is has not been several months, and with Disney things put in action take months to change.

Ms. Bilby did not officially take over the adminstration of DVC until recently.

And she may be in favor of the procedures that Jim wanted, I don't know.

Simba's Mom
11-15-2011, 05:17 PM
Those cruises book very fast and every year there are alot of disappointed members that don't get on the cruise. My guess is they want to reward those who buy from them direct. I guess one cannot blame them for that.

:thumbsup2ITA! When I read your post, I was reminded of a few years ago when everyone was supposed to call on a certain day, then there was a lottery to see who would get to go. As the membership grows, the ability to book the member's cruise probably will get increasingly more difficult. I have a feeling that if the situation were reversed-where someone got the cruise who "only" bought resale, while a "direct-buy" member was unable to book, that "direct-buy" member would be complaining just as loud.
However, I too would be interested to know how many points you need "direct-buy" to be eligible for the members' cruise. Like a lot of people, we have a combination of points, some direct-buy, some we bought resale. And to make it stickier, we sold our original purchase and bought resale because DVC didn't sell at the resort we decided (after we bought) that we wanted. Only one of our small ***-ons is direct buy, so I have a feeling it's just a good thing DH has no desire to cruise!

Dean
11-15-2011, 05:43 PM
I think you are all missing the point here. Disney only wants direct sales members onboard so they can direct sell them more points onboard. They know that if you purchased AKV on a resell at $60 they are not going to be able to convince you to purchase more points at $120.

If you think Disney is "only" doing the cruise to thank you, you mistaken, they are charging you more to come with the intentions of selling you on more points.Just using your post to make a point.

IMO, there is a difference between restricting the use of points outside the club and establishing resale members as second class citizens. As many of you can vouch for, my orientation is very pro management. And while DVD is technically (probably) within their rights, IMO, this crosses over the line between drawing a distinction between resale and retail buyers and simply being rude to members. I can't think of a parallel in the rest of the timeshare world at this time, including those who are far more aggressive with VIP benefits than is DVC. Likely the closest I can come is Bluegreen's decision to not offer new benefits to existing members unless they did an add on. Jut my opinion.

MiaSRN62
11-15-2011, 06:13 PM
I think you are all missing the point here. Disney only wants direct sales members onboard so they can direct sell them more points onboard. They know that if you purchased AKV on a resell at $60 they are not going to be able to convince you to purchase more points at $120.

If you think Disney is "only" doing the cruise to thank you, you mistaken, they are charging you more to come with the intentions of selling you on more points.

Respectfully, totally never thought the Member Cruise was for thanking Members. I am absolutely aware they try to sell. They try to do this big time on regular cruises when you attend the DVC "brunches" and "get togethers". Just attended one this past October on the Magic.
But it's not inconceivable to think a current MEMBER who purchased on resale initially would not be interested in a new contract ? They are assuming a lot by this I think and at the same time, excluding a valid portion of people who are considered DVC MEMBERS.
While I admit, a resale Member may not be as inclined to purchase direct, I also believe LOTS of direct purchase Members probably have no intention whatsover of purchasing anything else on these cruises either.
I, personally, don't think the Member cruises are that big of a deal---but it's the principle of the matter that if one is permitted to pay cash to go on this Member cruise then ALL Members should be allowed to do this. It would be different if points were required but that doesn't seem to be the case. Rather an assumption is being made that resale purchase Members would have no interest in a direct purchase. Financial situations in households change all the time.


Dean :IMO, there is a difference between restricting the use of points outside the club and establishing resale members as second class citizens. As many of you can vouch for, my orientation is very pro management. And while DVD is technically (probably) within their rights, IMO, this crosses over the line between drawing a distinction between resale and retail buyers and simply being rude to members.
Agreed Dean.

WilsonFlyer
11-15-2011, 06:38 PM
Isn't this the first (of maybe many) lines in the sand?

Up until this point, all restrictions were on the points only and what they could do. For what seems to be the first time, now there is a restriction on what you can do as a MEMBER based on your points and where they came from.

Am I missing something here?

I agree that DVD is probably within their rights to do so. After all, it's their cruise and they can certainly restrict it in any way they choose. This just seems like the first real blow to a truly tiered membership.

Am I the only one that sees it this way?

Dean
11-15-2011, 08:28 PM
This just seems like the first real blow to a truly tiered membership.

Am I the only one that sees it this way?To me it goes way beyond that. Frankly, I can't think of another system (Marriott, Wyndham, Bluegreen, etc) that has a tiered VIP system that I feel would restrict a member cruise to only a subset of members. All of them would restrict the ability to use points to pay for it. To me this goes way beyond simply a tiered system or qualified/non-qualified points issue. In my book this is akin to having non qualified points owners not being able to use the toll free number and only use the regular 407 number or not being able to buy the DP options. I'm having a hard time believing they really intended it this way and am optimistic that we'll see a reversal. I'm hoping that it's really a misunderstanding related to interpretation and not a directive from upper management. IMO, if this stands, it's a very bad indicator for non qualified members suggesting you haven't seen anything yet.

Worktoplay
11-15-2011, 09:10 PM
I find reading this thread very stressful. I began my DVC purchases in 1996 and now have 600 points, I always borrow from the next year and I have never traded out of Disney. I feel the restriction on the buyers from the resale market really devalued my investment. I have always believed what I continued to buy was an investment. The downside of disney was always the 42 year or 50 end. Marriott and others you can deed to your kids. I still thought Disney was worth it, but now.....I wish I bought at Marriott and vacationed at Disney. I would at least still feel like I made an investment and not just prepaid for my vacations.

Back to the topic at hand, I think its a disgrace you can't attend a member cruise. If your not a member, I guess you don't have dues to pay! not lol

pyrxtc
11-15-2011, 10:02 PM
I'm not a fan of the 3 and 4 night cruises (too short!)

Also...the points needed for the DVC member cruise are more than what they are for the 7 night Fantasy cruise we are going on in March 2013.

I just looked at that that JIC, It would cost me way more to go on that.

kyle051777
11-15-2011, 11:19 PM
To me it goes way beyond that. Frankly, I can't think of another system (Marriott, Wyndham, Bluegreen, etc) that has a tiered VIP system that I feel would restrict a member cruise to only a subset of members. All of them would restrict the ability to use points to pay for it. To me this goes way beyond simply a tiered system or qualified/non-qualified points issue. In my book this is akin to having non qualified points owners not being able to use the toll free number and only use the regular 407 number or not being able to buy the DP options. I'm having a hard time believing they really intended it this way and am optimistic that we'll see a reversal. I'm hoping that it's really a misunderstanding related to interpretation and not a directive from upper management. IMO, if this stands, it's a very bad indicator for non qualified members suggesting you haven't seen anything yet.

Dean I could not agree with you more. I hope this is all a misunderstanding but I am certainly not holding my breath.

Lil' Grumpy
11-16-2011, 01:26 AM
yes mr. moore, i think you are on target.

just my opinion, it isn't a timeshare company but the dvc. it
something they build { image } for the purpose of selling. recently
the resales people have been cutting in to their profits &
spreading the "word" all over the boards. some even took joy
by throwing it back @ the guides. i think this got their attentions,
and they have been working on actions to redirect new sales back
to the "home base".

i haven't read how the resales people are going to sell their shares
since they can no longer go on member cruises. not one. i only
mentioned this because if they all rushed & sold out that might
get their attention to re-think. [ when i look the big picture,
i can see the values of both -resales/direct would have for the
dvc well being. ] but i also think many were forced to sell because
of their fiances , not for profit. i know we didn't buy in thinking
to resale for profit. we brought it for our current & future disney vacations.

our biggest disappointment is trading with rci. we won't
being do it so our blt points will be kept there. it seem way out of
balance & our feedback is to dump it. or make some new "adjustments".
dvc to us, is the real prize not the other way around. so we 're
just redoing our previous goals. besides we have mutiple friends
with timeshares to work with.

resales are a wonderful bargain but if something sounds too good,
then there are going to be future changes. even disney can't sale
their image without it have some true grit.

all i see, the organization putting their house into proper order. i know
we were shocked by the system after buying 3 contacts. then
reading here, seeing how some insiders were misusing their positions,
made us put a hold on any further buying. nor do i think we are
the only ones.

however, the changes we are hoping for , has to do with using our blt
points @ our home resort. the new system allows them to recognize
these differences then that where i think they will make great
progress...including selling direct- "you will have the first dibs on
your requests @ your home resorts." i call it bringing back the
magic!


surely there are those with these holdings, that can recognize that
dvc has many, many options they can rely on , to boost sales?
[ i know i have been giving them our wish list} :wizard:

i don't think the talk about tier levels matter when you are vacationing.
i also think i would be upset if i was just a resales buyer but i would
still go to disney. we met dvc owners after our member cruise.
original owners, that were blocked out after last year. if you
were a owner that brought dvc , wouldn't you feel cheated that
resales were able to booked over you? exactly who should be more
entitled? even if i had purchased resales...i would vote those
buying direct deserved it more. but if they are some left after a
few months then they should be opened up. now if i was a dvc
manager with authority, i think offering the member cruises
for buying a large amounts of points would be a great way to sale
new points. especially with 2 sailings. :rolleyes1

keaster
11-16-2011, 06:30 AM
I just looked at that that JIC, It would cost me way more to go on that.

Oops, sorry! Let me clarify...it actually is costing only couple points less to do the 7-night. We are sailing in a 5a cabin:

DVC 3 & 4 night: 217 points/adult, $846 cash for 1 child
7-night Fantasy: 216 points/adulst, $823 cash for 1 child

So I'd rather take the longer cruise if I'm using that many points!

bobbiwoz
11-16-2011, 06:40 AM
If it stands that members who bought resale after March can't use cash to go on the member cruise, I will write a letter to the organization against that policy. I do think that members are members, (I understand that points are not equal any more) and I hope that right now we are looking at something that is not going to hold.

Bobbi

tammymacb
11-16-2011, 06:58 AM
My favorite part is that you can book more than one room and bring your non DVC owning family and friends with you. But, they will exclude members who are paying dues and going to the park.

I agree with Dean in that this decision is mean spirited and wrong.

tjkraz
11-16-2011, 08:08 AM
What DVC should have done--IMO--is to only allow bookings on the 11th from members who are paying for at least one passenger on points. That would naturally disqualify resale owners (no cruising on points) without suffering the PR disaster.

Then state that those wishing to pay cash for the entire cruise fare can call starting on December 12th or some other later date.

2500 cruise ship cabins will open for booking simultaneously. Call volumes will be tremendous, yet it is extremely unlikely that both ships will fill within one business day. I agree with others who think this policy will be quickly reversed if Disney has trouble selling out the voyages.

I'm also forced to wonder what will happen if a resale owner doesn't spot that fine print and sits on hold for 4 hours on the 11th. :headache: Is DVC really going to simply apologize and hang up? Sorry for wasting your day...

Harlemgirl720
11-16-2011, 08:32 AM
yes mr. moore, i think you are on target.

just my opinion, it isn't a timeshare company but the dvc. it
something they build { image } for the purpose of selling. recently
the resales people have been cutting in to their profits &
spreading the "word" all over the boards. some even took joy
by throwing it back @ the guides. i think this got their attentions,
and they have been working on actions to redirect new sales back
to the "home base".

i haven't read how the resales people are going to sell their shares
since they can no longer go on member cruises. not one. i only
mentioned this because if they all rushed & sold out that might
get their attention to re-think. [ when i look the big picture,
i can see the values of both -resales/direct would have for the
dvc well being. ] but i also think many were forced to sell because
of their fiances , not for profit. i know we didn't buy in thinking
to resale for profit. we brought it for our current & future disney vacations.

our biggest disappointment is trading with rci. we won't
being do it so our blt points will be kept there. it seem way out of
balance & our feedback is to dump it. or make some new "adjustments".
dvc to us, is the real prize not the other way around. so we 're
just redoing our previous goals. besides we have mutiple friends
with timeshares to work with.

resales are a wonderful bargain but if something sounds too good,
then there are going to be future changes. even disney can't sale
their image without it have some true grit.

all i see, the organization putting their house into proper order. i know
we were shocked by the system after buying 3 contacts. then
reading here, seeing how some insiders were misusing their positions,
made us put a hold on any further buying. nor do i think we are
the only ones.

however, the changes we are hoping for , has to do with using our blt
points @ our home resort. the new system allows them to recognize
these differences then that where i think they will make great
progress...including selling direct- "you will have the first dibs on
your requests @ your home resorts." i call it bringing back the
magic!


surely there are those with these holdings, that can recognize that
dvc has many, many options they can rely on , to boost sales?
[ i know i have been giving them our wish list} :wizard:

i don't think the talk about tier levels matter when you are vacationing.
i also think i would be upset if i was just a resales buyer but i would
still go to disney. we met dvc owners after our member cruise.
original owners, that were blocked out after last year. if you
were a owner that brought dvc , wouldn't you feel cheated that
resales were able to booked over you? exactly who should be more
entitled? even if i had purchased resales...i would vote those
buying direct deserved it more. but if they are some left after a
few months then they should be opened up. now if i was a dvc
manager with authority, i think offering the member cruises
for buying a large amounts of points would be a great way to sale
new points. especially with 2 sailings. :rolleyes1

I like your wish list. I agree. If I bought direct (which I did), I should get more perks than those who paid less for their points. I know times are tough and I could have bought at a cheaper price but I chose direct. We should be able to get requests 1 year in advance, those who bought at home resort non-direct 11 months. Those who own at other resorts and bought direct at 7 months, non direct at 6 months.

Dining plan- either lower our costs and keep others at same rate or allow us to pay upon check in.

Annual Passes- payment plan or lower rate.

Member cruise- strictly members. Only direct can use points and non direct pay oop. No one else allowed. No wonder its always fully booked. If you bring people who aren't even members, no one else can attend. So Members ONLY and only immediate family. Sorry but right is right. If only immediate family can get annual passes then they should be the only ones allowed on the cruise.

bobbiwoz
11-16-2011, 08:44 AM
I don't think a 2 stateroom limit per membership is out of line. 5 people families for the most part book 2 staterooms if they can't get or afford one of the suites. I know we book 2 staterooms for DS's family.

tammymacb
11-16-2011, 08:51 AM
I don't think a 2 stateroom limit per membership is out of line. 5 people families for the most part book 2 staterooms if they can't get or afford one of the suites. I know we book 2 staterooms for DS's family.

If it's for immediate family, then like APs, that's fine. But, if I get a room for me and DH and then get a room for my neighbor across the street, it's not. If you are a Member paying Member's dues, then you should get to pay cash to cruise with the other members. If you're my neighbor who's been to WDW twice and you're just along for a trip with friends, you should be waaay back in the line behind the person paying dues.

I actually met someone on the Member's Cruise in 2011 who wasn't a member and wasn't even WITH a Member. Their friend ( the member ) had booked a couple rooms and had to cancel his. But this guy still got to cruise on the Member's cruise.

To any dues paying person, that's a slap in the face at this point.

Chuck S
11-16-2011, 09:07 AM
Dining plan- either lower our costs and keep others at same rate or allow us to pay upon check in.

So Members ONLY and only immediate family. Sorry but right is right.


Dining Plan is NOT controlled by DVC, it is made available to DVC by Disney Parks and Resorts division. They set the rules and pricing, not DVC. IF DVC places too many demands on the system, Disney is just as likely to eliminate it as a DVC option entirely.

If it's for immediate family, then like APs, that's fine. But, if I get a room for me and DH and then get a room for my neighbor across the street, it's not.

To any dues paying person, that's a slap in the face at this point.



Tell me, please, how it is a "slap n the face" if I choose to bring friends on the cruise with me? By your definition, I should be traveling alone. All my "immediate family" has passed away. I have no siblings, only friends and neighbors that travel with me. The closest living relative I have is a 2nd cousin. My estate is being willed to friends, not a blood relative. If I booked a members cruise with two cabins, one for me, one for friends, and I had to cancel....why should my friends, my chosen family, be forced to cancel as well? Especially given that they'd likely already have their flights paid for.

tammymacb
11-16-2011, 09:10 AM
Well, are you allowed to buy APs for your friends who don't live with you? Then you shouldn't be able to book them in a separate room on the Member's cruise without a member in the room.

Resale owners should be no "less" than the general public when it comes to being allowed on this ship.

No member in the room should equal no room.

tammymacb
11-16-2011, 09:13 AM
Tell me, please, how it is a "slap n the face" if I choose to bring friends on the cruise with me? By your definition, I should be traveling alone. All my "immediate family" has passed away. I have no siblings, only friends and neighbors that travel with me. The closest living relative I have is a 2nd cousin. My estate is being willed to friends, not a blood relative. If I booked a members cruise with two cabins, one for me, one for friends, and I had to cancel....why should my friends, my chosen family, be forced to cancel as well? Especially given that they'd likely already have their flights paid for.

Because it's a Member's cruise. That should be self explanatory.

If we book a military rate on a cruise ( Dh is a retired veteran ) it doesn't extend to other rooms including the separate room I often book for our daughter. DD isn't a veteran, her room doesn't get the deal.

Chuck S
11-16-2011, 09:19 AM
Because it's a Member's cruise. That should be self explanatory.

If we book a military rate on a cruise ( Dh is a retired veteran ) it doesn't extend to other rooms including the separate room I often book for our daughter. DH isn't a veteran, her room doesn't get the deal.


Would you be willing to pay their airfare, to keep the cruise exclusively for members, or are you indeed saying that I should always plan to cruise totally alone on a members cruise?

A military "rate" is different, your daughter is still allowed to cruise, at a non-Discounted rate...or are you saying your daughter should also not be allowed on the ship, without military personnel in her room?

CMOORE185
11-16-2011, 09:25 AM
I find reading this thread very stressful. I began my DVC purchases in 1996 and now have 600 points, I always borrow from the next year and I have never traded out of Disney. I feel the restriction on the buyers from the resale market really devalued my investment. I have always believed what I continued to buy was an investment. The downside of disney was always the 42 year or 50 end. Marriott and others you can deed to your kids. I still thought Disney was worth it, but now.....I wish I bought at Marriott and vacationed at Disney. I would at least still feel like I made an investment and not just prepaid for my vacations.
Back to the topic at hand, I think its a disgrace you can't attend a member cruise. If your not a member, I guess you don't have dues to pay! not lolI think the fact that you look at DVC as an investment is a mistake. We were clearly told by our guide not to look at DVC as a financial investment. It will and has decreased in value, all timeshares will.

kyle051777
11-16-2011, 09:27 AM
Dining Plan is NOT controlled by DVC, it is made available to DVC by Disney Parks and Resorts division. They set the rules and pricing, not DVC. IF DVC places too many demands on the system, Disney is just as likely to eliminate it as a DVC option entirely.



Tell me, please, how it is a "slap n the face" if I choose to bring friends on the cruise with me? By your definition, I should be traveling alone. All my "immediate family" has passed away. I have no siblings, only friends and neighbors that travel with me. The closest living relative I have is a 2nd cousin. My estate is being willed to friends, not a blood relative. If I booked a members cruise with two cabins, one for me, one for friends, and I had to cancel....why should my friends, my chosen family, be forced to cancel as well? Especially given that they'd likely already have their flights paid for.


I do not care so much that you are able to bring friends except for the fact that I pay MF every year and they are restricting an actual member from going.

tammymacb
11-16-2011, 09:27 AM
Would you be willing to pay their airfare, to keep the cruise exclusively for members, or are you indeed saying that I should always plan to cruise alone on a members cruise?

A military "rate" is different, your daughter is still allowed to cruise, at a non-Discounted rate...or are you saying your daughter should also not be allowed on the ship?

You're being a little ridiculous.

First of all, you've already said you don't cruise, so you're just arguing for the sake to argue.
Secondly, if DVC only allowed bookings with a *member in each room* as I believe is fair, than you wouldn't have to worry about your friends who are cruising with you ( even though you don't cruise :rolleyes: ) losing their airfare.
And last, there is no VETERANS cruise. There's a prequalification in place to book that room on that cruise. Since it's not a VETERANS cruise, my daughter can, indeed, sail. But without the discount. If I wanted to take her on a VETERAN's cruise, I guess she's share a room with me and DH.

Harlemgirl720
11-16-2011, 09:29 AM
Dining Plan is NOT controlled by DVC, it is made available to DVC by Disney Parks and Resorts division. They set the rules and pricing, not DVC. IF DVC places too many demands on the system, Disney is just as likely to eliminate it as a DVC option entirely.

Good to know.

wdrl
11-16-2011, 09:37 AM
What DVC should have done--IMO--is to only allow bookings on the 11th from members who are paying for at least one passenger on points. That would naturally disqualify resale owners (no cruising on points) without suffering the PR disaster.



I wonder: Does Disney prefer that Members use cash or points to pay for a cruise? If Members use their points, then Disney has to convert those points to cash rentals at the DVC resorts in order to recover the cost of the cruise. In today's economy, it may not be that easy to fill the hotel rooms. If Disney gets cash for the DCL bookings, then it doesn't have to a large inventory of villas that have to be rented in order to recover it money

Some Members who would otherwise pay cash might decide to use their points just so they can book on the first day. By requiring that at least one passenger's fare be paid with points if a Member wants to book on the first day, will that result in more fares being paid with points? And is that what Disney wants to happen?



Then state that those wishing to pay cash for the entire cruise fare can call starting on December 12th or some other later date.




This makes sense but I can see Members who own fewer points complaining about this policy. The Members with 1,000 points or more will have no problem paying with points for at least one passenger. But the little Member with only 100 points may feel disadvantaged because they have to pay cash for all their passengers. Keep in mind people can always find something to complain about.



2500 cruise ship cabins will open for booking simultaneously. Call volumes will be tremendous, yet it is extremely unlikely that both ships will fill within one business day. I agree with others who think this policy will be quickly reversed if Disney has trouble selling out the voyages.



The simple solution to this PR headache would have been to say that resale owners get to book a week or two after the other Members have had their chances to book. That way, the resale owners get access to the Members' Cruise, but they only get the cabins that are left over, if there are any.


I hope that while people on in the phone queue waiting to talk to a CM, the recorded message will repeat over and over that resale owners can't book the cruise.

tammymacb
11-16-2011, 09:51 AM
I think the "point booking only on the first day- at least one full fare" idea is brilliant. It does give some advantage to large point holders, but I'm ok with that. ( I personally booked one person with points, one cash ) On the second day, cash guests and resale owners who had to pay with cash would get their chance. Disney wouldn't do it, because it would screw up MS lines for two days in a row.

But it would be fair to everyone and at least all Member's would have the same chance at sailing.

Chuck S
11-16-2011, 10:03 AM
You're being a little ridiculous.

First of all, you've already said you don't cruise, so you're just arguing for the sake to argue.
Secondly, if DVC only allowed bookings with a *member in each room* as I believe is fair, than you wouldn't have to worry about your friends who are cruising with you ( even though you don't cruise :rolleyes: ) losing their airfare.
And last, there is no VETERANS cruise. There's a prequalification in place to book that room on that cruise. Since it's not a VETERANS cruise, my daughter can, indeed, sail. But without the discount. If I wanted to take her on a VETERAN's cruise, I guess she's share a room with me and DH.

Whether I personally choose to cruise or not is irrelevant. If you are making blanket rules for members cruises, then surely there are other single, unattached DVCers that would be in a similar position that I am in. What you are saying is that they should not be allowed to cruise with friends/family in separate cabins? I think that is a little ridiculous.

tammymacb
11-16-2011, 10:05 AM
Yes, I am.

I'm saying if the person is not entitled to purchasing an AP with your DVC discount, should stay in your cabin with you or stay home.

Do you really think that your friend is more deserving of being onboard a Member's Cruise than someone who is paying dues? Really??

Chuck S
11-16-2011, 10:17 AM
Yes, I am.

I'm saying if the person is not entitled to purchasing an AP with your DVC discount, should stay in your cabin with you or stay home.

Do you really think that your friend is more deserving of being onboard a Member's Cruise than someone who is paying dues? Really??

I think who I would chose to travel with is every bit as "deserving" to travel with me as booking any other family member into a separate cabin. I mean, if a member travels with their elderly parents in a separate cabin, I guess those parents also are not as deserving as someone who is paying dues? Such blanket rules rarely work well.

As far as "deserving", no one "deserves" to be on a members cruise over any other person. It is, in reality, simply a charter booked by DVC Marketing. It is not booked by the DVC Association Management as any sort of exclusive "Members Only" event using DVC funds. Under law, it is doubtful DVC funds/dues could be committed to such. Dues are legally tied to resort operations and maintenance, not chartering cruise ships.

So, should the same be applied to WDW DVC resorts? No DVC booked rooms at DVC resorts for friends/family? After all, booking a room for them could prevent a dues paying member from getting that reservation. What about renters? By the same logic, those "dues paying members" would be more deserving of the room than any non-Member, no?

tammymacb
11-16-2011, 10:19 AM
OMG...again. Really?

We *ALL* have the exact same chance at booking a DVC room. Whether for me, my family, my neighbor or as a spec rent. Everyone can pick up phone and call and we all have the same opportunity.

What's happening with the new rule is members aren't getting the opportunity while random non owners are.

It's completely different.

Chuck S
11-16-2011, 10:46 AM
OMG...again. Really?

We *ALL* have the exact same chance at booking a DVC room. Whether for me, my family, my neighbor or as a spec rent. Everyone can pick up phone and call and we all have the same opportunity.

What's happening with the new rule is members aren't getting the opportunity while random non owners are.

It's completely different.

But all direct purchasers ARE getting the same opportunity. The newer resale purchasers are not, just as newer resale owners can not book into the Disney Collection. The members cruise works the same way. Direct purchasers have the ability to book, for whatever purposes they choose, over newer resale purchasers. That is marketing. You may not agree with it, but those are the rules. The resorts are OWNED by DVCers, and maintained by our dues. The cruise ships are not, nor are they chartered by DVC for the cruise. It is DVD/Marketing that charters them. Dues are irrelevant to the cruises, even the members cruises. Paying dues does not make one more deserving, as dues are not involved in the charter.

You may not agree with the cruise booking rules, but no one "deserves" it over anyone else.

CMOORE185
11-16-2011, 10:48 AM
My opinion is that because it is a members cruise and it is so hard to book you should not be able to book more than one cabin unless your immediate family requires more than one cabin or you have adult children. If you are a single owner or you have room in your cabin, your guests can stay in your room. There should be no separate bookings for non members that are not immediate family.

tammymacb
11-16-2011, 11:09 AM
But all direct purchasers ARE getting the same opportunity.
.

Obviously, we aren't going to agree about this ( shocker, I know ). But, nowhere does it say a purchaser of a resale contract isn't a Member. This is a Member's Cruise.

They were informed prior to buying that they could not use points for ABD, DCL, or Disney collection. At no point anywhere, did the paperwork say that you would no longer be able to sail the *Member's* cruise- that you were now less of a member. Even with cash.

IMO, it's wrong.

And IMO, any dues paying MEMBER has more of a right to that room than your friend who just wants to go.

horselover
11-16-2011, 11:19 AM
Obviously, we aren't going to agree about this ( shocker, I know ). But, nowhere does it say a purchaser of a resale contract isn't a Member. This is a Member's Cruise.

They were informed prior to buying that they could not use points for ABD, DCL, or Disney collection. At no point anywhere, did the paperwork say that you would no longer be able to sail the *Member's* cruise- that you were now less of a member. Even with cash.

IMO, it's wrong.

And IMO, any dues paying MEMBER has more of a right to that room than your friend who just wants to go.

ITA. :thumbsup2

Chuck S
11-16-2011, 11:30 AM
Obviously, we aren't going to agree about this ( shocker, I know ). But, nowhere does it say a purchaser of a resale contract isn't a Member. This is a Member's Cruise.

They were informed prior to buying that they could not use points for ABD, DCL, or Disney collection. At no point anywhere, did the paperwork say that you would no longer be able to sail the *Member's* cruise- that you were now less of a member. Even with cash.

IMO, it's wrong.

And IMO, any dues paying MEMBER has more of a right to that room than your friend who just wants to go.

But in reality, it isn't a *Members Cruise* It is a charter cruise, chartered by marketing. A *Members Cruise* just makes it sound special to boost marketing.

That is exactly why I think they should require that the primary (lead) name in every cabin should be booked on points. That would eliminate the ambiguity completely. If resale points are not allowed for the cruise, and the member's cruise required booking on points for at least the lead guest, then it would make sense that resale purchasers could not book the cruise.

But, as I said before, if direct purchasers are allowed to book the cruise entirely on cash, then, IMO, resale members should be allowed to do so as well. Or, they could, as others suggested, have a delayed booking window, of say 2 weeks or a month, for resale owners on the member cruise. But again, the Marketing dept. sets the rules.

SLJ6974
11-16-2011, 11:38 AM
Wow all this does sound a bit crazy. But the one thing that I am reconizing through this thread is the resale market is defanitley hurting Disney no doubt.

lucyem
11-16-2011, 11:46 AM
What DVC should have done--IMO--is to only allow bookings on the 11th from members who are paying for at least one passenger on points. That would naturally disqualify resale owners (no cruising on points) without suffering the PR disaster.

Then state that those wishing to pay cash for the entire cruise fare can call starting on December 12th or some other later date.

2500 cruise ship cabins will open for booking simultaneously. Call volumes will be tremendous, yet it is extremely unlikely that both ships will fill within one business day. I agree with others who think this policy will be quickly reversed if Disney has trouble selling out the voyages.

I'm also forced to wonder what will happen if a resale owner doesn't spot that fine print and sits on hold for 4 hours on the 11th. :headache: Is DVC really going to simply apologize and hang up? Sorry for wasting your day...


It will be interesting to see how it goes on the 11th. But I agree totally they could have done this differently.

Obviously, we aren't going to agree about this ( shocker, I know ). But, nowhere does it say a purchaser of a resale contract isn't a Member. This is a Member's Cruise.

They were informed prior to buying that they could not use points for ABD, DCL, or Disney collection. At no point anywhere, did the paperwork say that you would no longer be able to sail the *Member's* cruise- that you were now less of a member. Even with cash.

IMO, it's wrong.

And IMO, any dues paying MEMBER has more of a right to that room than your friend who just wants to go.

I completely agree.

Personally I think that over the past year the DVC has started slowly turning into a money grubbing timeshare. While yes the product is still good, I think their internal attitudes have shifted too much. There is an old saying you catch more flies with honey, something they have forgotten. And I think long term they will only hurt themselves. Look at the meetings for members which are hard core buy buy buy. Members now avoid them. If it was a fun time members would go and bring friends and tell friends. The last cruise DVC meet was just a big old sales pitch. And done in such a way that if it had been my first introduction to DVC I would have been seriously turned off.

Instead of adding basic perks to encourage direct buy in they are taking away from resale purchasers. Negative is always looked at negatively. Had direct purchasers been given a bigger AP discount or some such, resale purchasers would have been bummed but understood. But taking away something so basic, and IMO wrong, like the "members" cruise, people react negatively.

LisaS
11-16-2011, 11:47 AM
I agree with previous posters who suggested that those who bought resale after March 2011 did so knowing what they were giving up and therefore are probably less likely to be tempted to add on directly through Disney. Bottom line: they don't fit DVD's criteria for the Member's Cruise which is to sell as many add on points as possible. (I'm not saying I agree with what DCL and DVD are doing, just that I agree with PPs as to what is motivating them.)

If I recall correctly, this isn't the first time they have excluded some members from the MC. There was at least one year where those who had already taken a Members' Cruise were not allowed to book the next one. If I remember correctly, the theory at the time was that DVD wanted to fill the ship with fresh sales prospects because not enough of the MC regulars were tempted by the incentives to add on more points.

DHar
11-16-2011, 11:57 AM
popcorn::

Chuck S
11-16-2011, 12:05 PM
.... Had direct purchasers been given a bigger AP discount or some such, resale purchasers would have been bummed but understood. But taking away something so basic, and IMO wrong, like the "members" cruise, people react negatively.

I would LOVE a larger discount on APs, or allow direct purchasers discounts on MYW tickets, and at face value, it makes sense. However, one needs to consider how the many different Disney divisions/entities work together.

Yes, they are all under the Disney umbrella, but operate, and are responsible for profitability, as separate divisions. Ticket discounts would need to be negotiated, and show a positive effect for the Theme Park division, just as a Members Cruise has to show an increase in DVC resort sales to DVD/DVC Marketing in order to continue.

But cutting perks and options to resale purchasers costs DVC/DVD nothing. Basically it is a free marketing tool that can show an advantage to buying direct.

I agree with Lisa, those that have already purchased all of their DVC points via the resale market are not likely to turn around and purchase direct points because of the few perks offered on a "Members" cruise. They have already demonstrated a willingness to accept a cut in perks to save money buying resale. Given that...the members who have already purchased direct, as well as their friends and family, would likely be more open to purchasing while on the cruise...and boost the odds of a successful marketing cruise. But I still feel if marketing goals are not met on the upcoming cruises, that the "Members Cruises" will likely be discontinued at some point in the future, unless DVD/DVC Marketing gets an extremely good deal from the cruise line for chartering the ships off season.

dizfan
11-16-2011, 12:25 PM
Is the member cruise put on by DVD (sales division) or DVCMC?

If that is the case then we should all remember it's the sales division offering this. My understanding is that none of our dues go to this division. It's strictly sales.

However, if it's DVCMC that offers the member cruise, then I believe resale and direct should all have the opportunity to book. My understanding is that our dues pay for this division.

Chuck S
11-16-2011, 12:39 PM
Is the member cruise put on by DVD (sales division) or DVCMC?

If that is the case then we should all remember it's the sales division offering this. My understanding is that none of our dues go to this division. It's strictly sales.

However, if it's DVCMC that offers the member cruise, then I believe resale and direct should all have the opportunity to book. My understanding is that our dues pay for this division.

I do not think, by law, that any dues could be used to charter a cruise ship. Dues are, by law, tied to the cost of resort operations. That is why dues vary resort to resort.

dizfan
11-16-2011, 12:55 PM
I do not think, by law, that any dues could be used to charter a cruise ship. Dues are, by law, tied to the cost of resort operations. That is why dues vary resort to resort.

Thanks Chuck.

Based on that, it seems DVD is making a business decision.

tjkraz
11-16-2011, 12:58 PM
Personally I think that over the past year the DVC has started slowly turning into a money grubbing timeshare. While yes the product is still good, I think their internal attitudes have shifted too much.

DVC may be shifting its approach to some degree but the biggest change is merely the perception of owners. DVC has never been anything but a "money grubbing timeshare."

There is an old saying you catch more flies with honey, something they have forgotten. And I think long term they will only hurt themselves. Look at the meetings for members which are hard core buy buy buy. Members now avoid them. If it was a fun time members would go and bring friends and tell friends. The last cruise DVC meet was just a big old sales pitch. And done in such a way that if it had been my first introduction to DVC I would have been seriously turned off.

Most of what is happening has been brewing for years. DVC was lucky in that they could successfully stave off the effects longer than expected.

Due primarily to the economy and the nature of expiring contracts, DVC is faced with a marketplace in which there are resale options for $40 per point. It's going to take more than a little "honey" to get buyers to spend $140 on Bay Lake Tower with that disparity.

We could spend all day debating prices but Disney is going to demand a certain return on their investment if they continue to build new resorts. And members will not be better off if they simply stop building altogether.

Instead of adding basic perks to encourage direct buy in they are taking away from resale purchasers. Negative is always looked at negatively. Had direct purchasers been given a bigger AP discount or some such, resale purchasers would have been bummed but understood. But taking away something so basic, and IMO wrong, like the "members" cruise, people react negatively.

Problem is DVC doesn't have much to give. They are a relatively small unit of a very large company. DVC isn't in a position to make demands of other departments. Claire Bilby cannot walk into the office of Meg Crofton--or anyone under her--and demand that members get extra dining discounts, ticket discounts, preferential fireworks viewing or any other perks.

DVC has control over items under the DVC umbrella. They can control the cruises, Welcome Home Wednesdays and Member Mixers. They can control the different point use options (cruises, Adventures by Disney, Concierge Collection, etc.) DVC can control existing perks which have been negotiated and dole them out as they see fit.

Ideally it would be nice if DVC / DVD could negotiate added perks rather than modifying existing ones. But that's easier said than done. 11 months ago Jim Lewis had suggested that some new perks program was in the works--and suggested that it would be targeted at those who owned direct purchase points. But hard telling what his departure may have done to those plans.

BWV Dreamin
11-16-2011, 01:08 PM
Nice post Lisa. I think the "rub" is in saying only members that have purchased direct can participate in the cruise. Not that many members would have gone on the cruise anyway. It's all about the "label". Personally, that cruise is overpriced, doesn't sail to any place except CC, AND its a big sales pitch. Why do people want to go on such a cruise?

Hmmm, has me thinking, didn't someone post on here a few months ago about direct vs. resales changes were a'comin......;)


I agree with previous posters who suggested that those who bought resale after March 2011 did so knowing what they were giving up and therefore are probably less likely to be tempted to add on directly through Disney. Bottom line: they don't fit DVD's criteria for the Member's Cruise which is to sell as many add on points as possible. (I'm not saying I agree with what DCL and DVD are doing, just that I agree with PPs as to what is motivating them.)

If I recall correctly, this isn't the first time they have excluded some members from the MC. There was at least one year where those who had already taken a Members' Cruise were not allowed to book the next one. If I remember correctly, the theory at the time was that DVD wanted to fill the ship with fresh sales prospects because not enough of the MC regulars were tempted by the incentives to add on more points.

tjkraz
11-16-2011, 01:13 PM
Hmmm, has me thinking, didn't someone post on here a few months ago about direct vs. resales changes were a'comin......;)

Was there some post in particular that foreshadowed this circumstance?

I don't think there was anyone who thought the March 21 limitations were the be-all, end-all of resale restrictions that DVC would implement. We've spent the last year speculating over Jim Lewis' high point perks program which logically would have benefited only those with points purchased direct.

titans33
11-16-2011, 01:19 PM
Obviously, we aren't going to agree about this ( shocker, I know ). But, nowhere does it say a purchaser of a resale contract isn't a Member. This is a Member's Cruise.

They were informed prior to buying that they could not use points for ABD, DCL, or Disney collection. At no point anywhere, did the paperwork say that you would no longer be able to sail the *Member's* cruise- that you were now less of a member. Even with cash.

IMO, it's wrong.

And IMO, any dues paying MEMBER has more of a right to that room than your friend who just wants to go.

So let me get this straight. If Adventures by Disney were to put on a "Members Adventure" you think resale purchasers should have access to it? Just because it is a "members cruise" it is still part of the Disney Collection. When I print out a point chart showing DCL point prices it specifically states "Some Disney Vacation Club Members will not have access to the Disney Collection through membership." This is pretty self explanatory. It doesn't discriminate whether paying with cash or points it says simply that through your membership you will not have access to the Disney collection. Sorry for the OP but I don't see the problem since everyone knew the restrictions on closing after the restriction date.

tammymacb
11-16-2011, 01:44 PM
Let me say this for the absolute last time, if it's a *Member's* anything and it's available to book for cash, then I believe all member's should have access to it paying cash.

Until resale buyers are no longer member's, then they fit the demographic of the advertising.

Quite frankly, I don't buy that DVC is going after their best sales options, either. I bought a resale, and another resale and then direct points. There are MANY on here who have done the same.

This is simply Disney spanking their naughty resale buyers and shaming them that they aren't good enough to cruise.

SLJ6974
11-16-2011, 01:49 PM
Disney is getting desperate.

Chuck S
11-16-2011, 01:55 PM
Quite frankly, I don't buy that DVC is going after their best sales options, either. I bought a resale, and another resale and then direct points. There are MANY on here who have done the same.


Many, yes. But I would bet that DVC Marketing has stats that show that while many resale purchasers did add-on through direct purchase, chances are that the vast majority have not, as compared to those that purchased initially directly, and continued to add-on directly. If there is one thing Disney does well, it is compile and analyze marketing stats. These boards may or may not represent the overall statistical, real-time marketing trends and info to which Disney/DVC has access

Probably not enough of those people that bought resale initially have added-on through direct sales that it was of any major concern to the marketing department to exclude them from their chartered sales cruise. If it were, you can bet they'd have been allowed to cruise on cash.

KAT4DISNEY
11-16-2011, 02:00 PM
Let me say this for the absolute last time, if it's a *Member's* anything and it's available to book for cash, then I believe all member's should have access to it paying cash.

Until resale buyers are no longer member's, then they fit the demographic of the advertising.

Quite frankly, I don't buy that DVC is going after their best sales options, either. I bought a resale, and another resale and then direct points. There are MANY on here who have done the same.

This is simply Disney spanking their naughty resale buyers and shaming them that they aren't good enough to cruise.

I agree. And we also bought resale first and added on direct several times thru member events and member web sales so if we had been restricted from events like this DVC would have lost an opportunity. If the cruise is not available to all members and the only real pupose is for sales then they ought to change the name to "DVC sales cruise restricted to whom we wish".

If you can sail only on cash then all members should be able to book. This really does seem like a slap in the face by DVC to the newest resale purchasers.

tomandrobin
11-16-2011, 02:25 PM
Interesting discussion.....

Going forward, I think you will see more and more limitations on resale contracts.

Eventually they will beat down resale owners to a point where they will be true "2nd class" owners. After they strip away all the perks, then they will come out with a program like for a fee of $20pp you can upgrade to full membership.

tammymacb
11-16-2011, 02:33 PM
As usual, I agree with you, Tom 100%.

Disney has basically put that in writing.

INCIDENTAL BENEFITS MAY NOT BE HYPOTHECATED, BOUGHT, SOLD, EXCHANGED, RENTED OR OTHERWISE TRANSFERRED, EXCEPT UPON WRITTEN APPROVAL OF DVD, AND ARE SOLELY FOR YOUR BENEFIT AND NOT FOR THE BENEFIT OF YOUR ASSIGNS OR SUCCESSORS-IN-INTEREST. IF YOU SELL YOUR OWNERSHIP INTEREST, INCIDENTAL BENEFITS DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY TRANSFER TO YOUR BUYER. THE AVAILABILITY OF INCIDENTAL BENEFITS MAY OR MAY NOT BE RENEWED OR EXTENDED TO SUCH ASSIGNS OR SUCCESSORS-IN INTEREST. DVD RESERVES THE RIGHT, IN ITS SOLE, ABSOLUTE AND UNFETTERED DISCRETION, TO ELECT TO PERMIT TRANSFER OF ANY ONE OR MORE INCIDENTAL BENEFITS, AND, IF IT DOES SO, MAY REQUIRE PAYMENT OF FEES AND/OR CHARGES AS A CONDITION TO TRANSFER.

tomandrobin
11-16-2011, 02:39 PM
As usual, I agree with you, Tom 100%.

Disney has basically put that in writing.

INCIDENTAL BENEFITS MAY NOT BE HYPOTHECATED, BOUGHT, SOLD, EXCHANGED, RENTED OR OTHERWISE TRANSFERRED, EXCEPT UPON WRITTEN APPROVAL OF DVD, AND ARE SOLELY FOR YOUR BENEFIT AND NOT FOR THE BENEFIT OF YOUR ASSIGNS OR SUCCESSORS-IN-INTEREST. IF YOU SELL YOUR OWNERSHIP INTEREST, INCIDENTAL BENEFITS DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY TRANSFER TO YOUR BUYER. THE AVAILABILITY OF INCIDENTAL BENEFITS MAY OR MAY NOT BE RENEWED OR EXTENDED TO SUCH ASSIGNS OR SUCCESSORS-IN INTEREST. DVD RESERVES THE RIGHT, IN ITS SOLE, ABSOLUTE AND UNFETTERED DISCRETION, TO ELECT TO PERMIT TRANSFER OF ANY ONE OR MORE INCIDENTAL BENEFITS, AND, IF IT DOES SO, MAY REQUIRE PAYMENT OF FEES AND/OR CHARGES AS A CONDITION TO TRANSFER.

For the longest time, Disney freely mixed DVC "rights as owners" and DVC "perks to owners" and extended them to all. We are so conditioned that Disney is not a timeshare that we are in shock now, cause they are starting to treat us like any other timeshare.

lugnut33
11-16-2011, 02:57 PM
I agree to a point. IF they require that the member cruise have the primary traveler booked on points, then the rest payable in cash...it would exclude the resale purchasers. But, IF direct purchasers are allowed to pay all cash, then I personally see no reason why resale people should not be able to book all cash.

But it is DVC/Disney's playground, they can set the rules.

I honestly don't know what the booking rules are, as I really don't have an interest in cruising. Maybe at some point in the future, but right now, sailing on a cruise ship just doesn't hold any interest for me.

I totally agree. If required to book with points then I could understand not allowing the scabs (tongue firmly planted in cheek while saying "scabs") that purchased resale after that certain day on the cruise.

We are taking our first cruise this June with the Dis Unplugged crew and am really looking forward to it. I hope it lives up to expectations.

Greysword
11-16-2011, 03:01 PM
popcorn::I completely agree, and I think I'll join you popcorn::, as this thread is definitely panning out to be the social experiment I thought it would.

(NOTE: all quoted posts are included to represent a battery of ideas and are not directed specifically at the poster unless specifically stated)

For instance, the segregation of the DVC membership by DVD has elicited a discussion of the boundaries of entitlement. Some in the "included population" agree with the limitations and have suggested firming up the boundaries...


we met dvc owners after our member cruise.
original owners, that were blocked out after last year. if you
were a owner that brought dvc , wouldn't you feel cheated that
resales were able to booked over you? exactly who should be more
entitled? even if i had purchased resales...i would vote those
buying direct deserved it more.

I like your wish list. I agree. If I bought direct (which I did), I should get more perks than those who paid less for their points.

For those in the excluded population (at the moment, resale purchasers after the March cutoff date), the conversation changes from the desire of inclusion to the need to make another segment of the population "lesser" than themselves...

If it's for immediate family, then like APs, that's fine. But, if I get a room for me and DH and then get a room for my neighbor across the street, it's not. If you are a Member paying Member's dues, then you should get to pay cash to cruise with the other members. If you're my neighbor who's been to WDW twice and you're just along for a trip with friends, you should be waaay back in the line behind the person paying dues.

I actually met someone on the Member's Cruise in 2011 who wasn't a member and wasn't even WITH a Member. Their friend ( the member ) had booked a couple rooms and had to cancel his. But this guy still got to cruise on the Member's cruise.

To any dues paying person, that's a slap in the face at this point.

I do not care so much that you are able to bring friends except for the fact that I pay MF every year and they are restricting an actual member from going.

If you step back and watch the theater, it is interesting to watch human behavior in action. The need for inclusion is so strong that regardless of previous warnings, the reason/purpose of exclusionary act, or the definition of what it means to be part of the desired group, people latch onto the semantics of a word even if the proclamation is taken out of context of its purpose.

The question is, whether this act by Disney will serve as a "wake-up call" for resale purchasers or if they will simply argue an injustice until the next one comes along? What is a DVC member's breaking point, where they will decide to leave a WDW/DLR vacation behind due to the segregation of the club?

Will it get more entrenched; quite possibly. If it does, will those members with some direct purchase and some resale points, who are ok with the current policy, remain ok should the policy shift to only 100% direct purchase members being included? I guess we may see...


On a direct note, Tammy, I think you are too focused on the name of the event ("Member Cruise") to allow yourself to understand the true target demographic and reason for the event...

I'm saying if the person is not entitled to purchasing an AP with your DVC discount, should stay in your cabin with you or stay home.

Do you really think that your friend is more deserving of being onboard a Member's Cruise than someone who is paying dues? Really??

Just for clarification, I do not believe this is a Member only cruise. As stated by the good Professor to me, this a sales cruise. By many accounts, it seems the purpose for the event is to sell points to those who have purchased direct from Disney and for those whom the direct purchase members are attempting to recommend the program.

In its core, it seems to have nothing to do with general membership or monthly dues, rather the target audience are those who purchased from Disney in the past.

If a member purchased direct, they are likely to steer their friends, families, and acquaintances in that direction as well. If a member purchased on the resale market, they are likely to steer prospective buyers in that direction. Who would DVD rather have on these sales cruises?

It seems to me the problem is that the general perception is that a Member Cruise should be for the general DVC membership, which is an error. It is not for the general membership, rather it is for those open to purchasing more points directly through DVD. Regardless of how it is/was spun, spoken of, or viewed, this is the reality.

A similar example of exclusion would be the use the TotWL by only members staying on points at BLT (I anticipate this analogy will be refuted with length of notice, which is irrelevant, as the example is directed toward the exclusionary policy instead of the length of time to get our hopes up). Another policy is pool hopping; DVC members may use the GF pool, while cash guests staying at the GF concierge suites may not use any other resort pool.

The part that concerns me the most is that Chuck, and others, have attempted to explain this, and he even provided a specific example to gain clarification (see below). Instead of absorbing the scenario and looking at it for what it was presented, we have isolated and attacked the specifics.

Again, the bottom line is this. DVD has/is using the tactic of excluding a certain portion of the DVC population to set apart the value of its product (like pool hopping is used in the sales pitch) from the resale market, and it is very VERY possible they will do it again. Consider this event regarding the Member's Cruise a warning; it will likely happen again, but possibly to a larger segment of the DVC membership.

Consider how far you, personally, are willing to accept these sort of changes and establish a strategy (letter writing, sales of your points, etc) should policies shift to reach those thresholds, or don't. However, if we don't think ahead and gain an understanding of what is happening, we really have no basis for complaint.


I think who I would chose to travel with is every bit as "deserving" to travel with me as booking any other family member into a separate cabin. I mean, if a member travels with their elderly parents in a separate cabin, I guess those parents also are not as deserving as someone who is paying dues? Such blanket rules rarely work well.

As far as "deserving", no one "deserves" to be on a members cruise over any other person. It is, in reality, simply a charter booked by DVC Marketing. It is not booked by the DVC Association Management as any sort of exclusive "Members Only" event using DVC funds. Under law, it is doubtful DVC funds/dues could be committed to such. Dues are legally tied to resort operations and maintenance, not chartering cruise ships.

So, should the same be applied to WDW DVC resorts? No DVC booked rooms at DVC resorts for friends/family? After all, booking a room for them could prevent a dues paying member from getting that reservation. What about renters? By the same logic, those "dues paying members" would be more deserving of the room than any non-Member, no?

P.S. As a side note, I am enjoying the thread for the reasons mentioned initially. Much like before the recession in 2008, the warning flags are flying, and although I was a bit taken aback by the abruptness of this Member Cruise decision, I am not surprised. I feel these is likely more to come, and I am happy to sit back and watch the events unfold.

Thanks to our more knowledgeable members (Dean, Tim, Jim, Sammie, Dianne, Deb, Chuck, Bill, MaistreGracey, and others), I have drunk the cool-aid and fully embrace the reality that perks come and go, and what we bought was a prepaid room in good condition (nothing more and nothing less). Even though I still believe in the Magic of DVC (owning property at WDW), I take it with the same view as in Tomorrowland. I let myself get immersed in the fantasy, but keep reality close at hand.

Brian Noble
11-16-2011, 03:23 PM
The best advice I can give anyone came from my daughter, when she was but three years old.

The scene: my son, at one, was banging his spoon on his high chair. We told him to stop, or we would take the spoon away. He did not stop. We took away the spoon. He cried. A LOT.

In a way that only a three year old can, she looked up, and completely earnestly, said: "Don't cry. When Mommy and Daddy take something away from me, I just don't want it anymore."

And it's true. She doesn't. This makes parenting hard, but will serve her in good stead if she can make it to 18... ;)

LisaS
11-16-2011, 03:36 PM
Let me say this for the absolute last time, if it's a *Member's* anything and it's available to book for cash, then I believe all member's should have access to it paying cash.

Until resale buyers are no longer member's, then they fit the demographic of the advertising.

Quite frankly, I don't buy that DVC is going after their best sales options, either. I bought a resale, and another resale and then direct points. There are MANY on here who have done the same.

This is simply Disney spanking their naughty resale buyers and shaming them that they aren't good enough to cruise.Many of us initially purchased a resale and then added on directly but those who purchased resale since March 2011 are in a different group. They knowingly purchased a restricted contract in favor of a significant discount. Others in the same situation opted to pay more to buy direct so they wouldn't lose any options. If you had to pick someone to approach to purchase an add-on directly, which group do you think would be more receptive? If, as previous cruisers have stated, this cruise is becoming a big sales pitch, who does Disney want on the ship?

The Members' Cruise is always popular and they have no problem filling the ship so Disney can opt to be selective about who they want to include. In the process they can also reinforce their message about the advantages of buying direct which is potentially good for business even if it's not good for some members.

I prefer the old DVC where all DVC members were one big happy family and I could resell a contract and pass on all the same perks to the buyer. Unfortunately Disney is a business and they make decisions that are in their best interests, even if they conflict with ours.

lugnut33
11-16-2011, 03:39 PM
As I sit here and see DVC jacking around with members (or scabs if you bought resale) it makes me content that I will be sitting on my current 170 points and not even considering any new or resale DVC points in the future.

BTW, I'm a scab, but not a bloody scab like those people who bought after the date that will live on in DVC history. :rotfl:

DVC SSR Owner
11-16-2011, 04:05 PM
Save yourself some cash and pick a different date or buy the smallest direct contract at the cheapest resort possible if your heart is set on that cruise. Good luck either way!

BEASLYBOO
11-16-2011, 04:08 PM
As I sit here and see DVC jacking around with members (or scabs if you bought resale) it makes me content that I will be sitting on my current 170 points and not even considering any new or resale DVC points in the future.

BTW, I'm a scab, but not a bloody scab like those people who bought after the date that will live on in DVC history. :rotfl:

Ditto!

Bought loaded resale in 2000. I"m not buying anymore points resale or direct. I bought never intending to sell, my maint. is very affordable and I plan to stick it out till the end, mine or 2042!

I personally could care less about a Members Only Sales Pitch Cruise, but I feel a bit sorry for the OP, but truthfully not that much, as I don't see this as the loss of a perk or much of a benefit! As much as I enjoy being a DVC member I didn't buy into it to hang out with other DVCr's, I bought into it for the enjoyment of my family and friends, and it still paying off!

Sammie
11-16-2011, 04:37 PM
Nice post Lisa. I think the "rub" is in saying only members that have purchased direct can participate in the cruise. Not that many members would have gone on the cruise anyway. It's all about the "label". Personally, that cruise is overpriced, doesn't sail to any place except CC, AND its a big sales pitch. Why do people want to go on such a cruise?

Hmmm, has me thinking, didn't someone post on here a few months ago about direct vs. resales changes were a'comin......;)


Me, I said all along when the first limitations to resale were announced that this would not be the end of them.

I also stated earlier in this thread that I was not sure about the future for the limitations because while I knew about the plans Jim Lewis had I do not know if the new admin will continue in that line.

Dean
11-16-2011, 05:08 PM
just my opinion, it isn't a timeshare company but the dvc.I couldn't disagree with you more. It is just a timeshare company. Holding Disney to a higher standard is simply not reasonable or appropriate.

disneynutz
11-16-2011, 05:18 PM
Disney is getting desperate.

It's called greed.

DVD has made Disney some pretty good money over the last few years and Disney executives expect the trend to continue. They will tweak and modify rules and perks to get the most profit that they can even at our expense.

If some existing members get upset it doesn't matter because there is nothing that we can do. We can sell our contracts and not vacation at Disney but the people that we sell to take our place and Disney is not affected in the least.

Disney is such a strong brand that people will buy no matter what.

The member cruises make Disney money or they wouldn't offer them and members will wait for hours on the phone just to book. That's how powerful their marketing and brand is.

I expect that the March restrictions including the cruise is more of a tool for the Guides then an attempt to force members to buy direct or to punish us.

I can hear them now when asked about resale from a prospect, "buying from Disney allows you access to several hundred vacation destinations including Disney Cruise Line. In fact we are having two specialty cruises just for DVC Members".

:earsboy: Bill

Breyean
11-16-2011, 05:25 PM
I can hear them now when asked about resale from a prospect, "buying from Disney allows you access to several hundred vacation destinations including Disney Cruise Line. In fact we are having two specialty cruises just for DVC Members".

:earsboy: Bill

"In fact we are having two specialty cruises just for REAL DVC Members who buy direct".

Greysword
11-16-2011, 05:45 PM
In a way that only a three year old can, she looked up, and completely earnestly, said: "Don't cry. When Mommy and Daddy take something away from me, I just don't want it anymore."


...but those who purchased resale since March 2011 are in a different group. They knowingly purchased a restricted contract in favor of a significant discount. These two statements made me think. If a part of the argument against this Member Cruise issue is that people who bought resale after March were never told, what would have been the reaction if they were told?

That is, if DVD made a statement, not unlike the recent letter to cast members, that implicitly stated that resale owners will loose an undetermined amount of benefits as an offset to the discounted pricing available on the resale market, would the community be as upset?

Of course, it would say due to the discounted pricing Disney allowed to flourish (due to not exercising RoFR ;)).

burnsoc
11-16-2011, 05:58 PM
Please correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't DVC on a Members Cruise several years ago restrict booking for members who had already been on a Member Cruise? They gave first chance to those members who had not been on a previous member cruise.

Chuck S
11-16-2011, 06:25 PM
Please correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't DVC on a Members Cruise several years ago restrict booking for members who had already been on a Member Cruise? They gave first chance to those members who had not been on a previous member cruise.

Yes, they did.

They also used to have a Holiday lottery type thing for the Christmas/New year holiday where Home Resort priority did not come into play...that was way back when OKW, and possibly BWV were new. It only lasted a couple of years.

You had to sign up way in advance, and hope you got called...OKW owners did not get first dibs on rooms during that time frame.

bsusanmb
11-16-2011, 08:29 PM
OP, I understand how you feel. I wish I had bought my points resale, but I didn't and they cost me a fortune. When I bought, I didn't know about resale, my loss. I have been on 4 Disney cruises. I was on the member cruise, and it wasn't what I had hoped it would be. I love little things, and so the gifts were special to me. But those in our Dis group who have gone on the member cruises several times said that the member cruises have gone downhill. They said that the food is not what it once was for the MC, the gifts are just repeats, the special guests were not so special except for Ducky Williams who has been on several cruises. I really wanted to meet Marty Sklar or one of the original Disney icons, but there were none on our MC. For the price, it really wasn't worth it. I have used points for 3 cruises, and cash for one. I don't think I will do another MC unless I know who is going to be on that cruise. Many of us felt that DVC was not really appreciating the members on the MC I was on. I didn't have anything to compare as far as MC's, but it just wasn't so "special". I know that the D23 was being held the same time as the MC I was on, and everyone who was anyone for DIsney was in CA.
My opinion which is not worth much, is that if you are paying cash for the MC, why would they want to exclude you? Maybe the MC's won't sell out and they would let you get a chance at booking. Who knows.
Wishing you the best, and enjoy the bargain you got on your resale. My 700 points cost about $70,000. UGH. But I do love my DVC!

Sandisw
11-16-2011, 09:57 PM
Let me say this for the absolute last time, if it's a *Member's* anything and it's available to book for cash, then I believe all member's should have access to it paying cash.

Until resale buyers are no longer member's, then they fit the demographic of the advertising.

Quite frankly, I don't buy that DVC is going after their best sales options, either. I bought a resale, and another resale and then direct points. There are MANY on here who have done the same.

This is simply Disney spanking their naughty resale buyers and shaming them that they aren't good enough to cruise.

But at the end of the day, you are talking about something that is a perk or enhancement to the DVC membership and none of that is guaranteed for any DVC member.

If they want to offer two cruises to certain members, who meet whatever criteria they choose, then that is within their right. Does it dishearten some? Absolutely. Does it frustrate some? Yep. Will it cause some to rethink the value of their membership and opinion of DVC? Certainly.

IMO, though, those that bought resale should have absolutely expected that at any point in time, DVC might change the rules and put in more restrictions. And, if they didn't, then they may not have understood exactly what goes in to being a DVC owner. Even those of us who own direct points--I have restricted ones as well--understand that at anytime, the rules for perks can and will change.


We just have to realize that at this point, they have decided that a "perk" of being a member who owns directly purchased or pre-March 2011 points, you get access to a special cruise opportunities in 2012/13. I do think, though, that owners who are excluded from using cash should send an email sharing their disappointment with DVC.

wishicouldgomoreofte
11-16-2011, 10:14 PM
Oops, sorry! Let me clarify...it actually is costing only couple points less to do the 7-night. We are sailing in a 5a cabin:

DVC 3 & 4 night: 217 points/adult, $846 cash for 1 child
7-night Fantasy: 216 points/adulst, $823 cash for 1 child

So I'd rather take the longer cruise if I'm using that many points!

Where do you get this point and pricing info?
Do you call Member Services? Is it posted somewhere?

Sorry, I found it on the dvcmember website.

RayMusicCityUSA
11-17-2011, 11:25 AM
•Due to the unique nature of these special events, Members are permitted to pay cash for all passengers if they so choose.

So, people don't have to use points at all.

You really can't 'cherry pick' words from a contract. The original agreement was for "Memberships not purchased directly from Disney Vacation Development, Inc. on or after March 21, 2011 will not have access to 2012/2013 S.S. Member Cruises."

It's a restricted sale and that's why the resale market is markedly less than if you purchased it direct.

You really did get what you paid for, including 'No access to Member Cruises'.

kyle051777
11-18-2011, 05:47 PM
But at the end of the day, you are talking about something that is a perk or enhancement to the DVC membership and none of that is guaranteed for any DVC member.

If they want to offer two cruises to certain members, who meet whatever criteria they choose, then that is within their right. Does it dishearten some? Absolutely. Does it frustrate some? Yep. Will it cause some to rethink the value of their membership and opinion of DVC? Certainly.

IMO, though, those that bought resale should have absolutely expected that at any point in time, DVC might change the rules and put in more restrictions. And, if they didn't, then they may not have understood exactly what goes in to being a DVC owner. Even those of us who own direct points--I have restricted ones as well--understand that at anytime, the rules for perks can and will change.


We just have to realize that at this point, they have decided that a "perk" of being a member who owns directly purchased or pre-March 2011 points, you get access to a special cruise opportunities in 2012/13. I do think, though, that owners who are excluded from using cash should send an email sharing their disappointment with DVC.

I do not believe that I should have expected to be kept out of the "member cruise". I am a member and I pay my MF's every year (or will). I understand perks will come and go but this is one perk that we are being left out of that I do not understand.

A few have said that they would be upset or can see that people would be upset if people who have purchased resale are able to book the cruise and people who purchased direct were not. My problem with this argument is that there has always been the resale market, so to me it is irrelevant.

No matter the outcome I am still loving DVC just very disappointed if this decision holds up.

Sandisw
11-18-2011, 09:55 PM
I do not believe that I should have expected to be kept out of the "member cruise". I am a member and I pay my MF's every year (or will). I understand perks will come and go but this is one perk that we are being left out of that I do not understand.

A few have said that they would be upset or can see that people would be upset if people who have purchased resale are able to book the cruise and people who purchased direct were not. My problem with this argument is that there has always been the resale market, so to me it is irrelevant.

No matter the outcome I am still loving DVC just very disappointed if this decision holds up.

I don't understand the reasoning behind it either, other than to speculate that they made the decision for the same or similar reason they made the decision last year to put a restriction on resale points.

To me, it appears they want there to be a difference between direct and resale buyers. It's just one more thing they can say "We offer a special members cruise for those that own direct points."

While this may not have been a perk you anticipated would be removed, and its disappointing that they didn't at least give people a heads up, it simply reminds all of us that nothing but what is in the contract can or should be counted on. For all we know, next year, the cruise may be for members who have at least X amount of direct points.

The best we can do is share our disappointment with DVC and hope that they take all that into account when making decisions on what enhancements they want to offer to members.

kyle051777
11-19-2011, 02:12 PM
Well here is what they told me. The disney cruise is considered an exchange and so resale members who purchased after 3/11 are not allowed to book the member cruise because it is still considered an exchange.

I told him that I did not want, nor could I use any points, so there would be no points to exchange. He said it did not matter that it was still an exchange. I asked what they were exchanging and he could not give me an answer, just that this is the policy for new resales.

I informed him that I was very disappointed in DVC's decision to handle a member cruise in this fashion and recommended that they change the name if they are indeed not going to let all members go on the cruise.

He said he would give my concerns to his supervisor and to have anyone else with concerns to send it by email through the website.

So, any resales purchased after the march 2011 deadline is not able to attend member cruises with your membership. Pretty lame in my opinion. Oh well, life goes on.

Thanks again for all your comments.
Kyle

Lil' Grumpy
11-20-2011, 12:59 AM
first some generalizations...,

...yes tammy, we do not buy puppies @ any pet store. and yes, mr.
"grey", human dynamics are very telling if one has listening skills.
fyi- just a health plug--our society has it share of problems &
human tragedies however, the solutions to make improvements
are found in knowledge that were already discovered. back when
extended families took an active role in child rearing, these
"secrets" toward finding happiness were repeated & repeated,
over & over. old wise tales...has the wisdom for anyone wanting
success in life. fyi, i discovered this when i had to "covered"
mental health, liked 2o years ago & it lead to a new career,
better life. furthermore, i knew i was on the right tract when a
client returned after 7years, just to say, "it changed my life."


well tammy? i don't know..but from our experiences, most dvc
members have friends that are owners? what's the old adage ?
"while in dvc do as disney sez"? .....why not have them get
you on the ship as a friend? does it matter being official invited?


...maybe i am wrong?...does any other timeshares have a member
cruise? nor have i seen any caps or merchandise when vacationing.
dvc is directly connected to wdw & the best parks in the world.
i don't know any other timeshare with such crossover draw. there
are hundreds of gifts we have received since being members.
of course, they stamp diseny all over them but none of them
been return since sharing them our community. in reality, we
get requests from family, friends, co-workers, & the families
we sponsering. if they say rci , i don't think there would be the same
reaction/s. we had some really special memories made last christmas.
not @ the parks, or blt....but @ the merry mixer. do the other timeshares
have special christmas parties? { my friends 2 work didn't know of any?]

i know , been reading how "poor" this past member cruise was. it was
our second. we thought this year lil'suitcase was more functioning
than last year. last year gym bag, i really liked & using. the pins we
collected are lil'tokens that we have been using to "mark" our trips
since 1992.

this year cruise....they gave a ton of gingerbread cookies out free.
is one worth it? in 2006 we first learn about ducky williams. him
alone, i think make a cruise very ,very special. there are 5 of
us, & we have been lucky to won 11 of his drawings....for the
kids' room. the thing that impressed me most, was his banker
years. in less than 10 years & vice president- tells of a quality
person with great people skills, but also trust. :thumbsup2


basically, i am nothing special, no stardom , talents, or anything
worth noticing. i run an unit . but coworkers seek my input because
they also see my work. really, to do my job, being a nobody is a
positive....because all the merits are redirected back to the values
from what i call "human dynamics. dvc gives me the chance
encounters with those i would seldom be able. funny how things
can go. on the cruise, another person took my seat @ the table.
so i ended up with another family...that took me awhile to realized
it was mr. joey fartone singer. he was gracious to take pictures
with my wife/daughter. that gave me "brownie points" :yay:


my lots in life has not been easy, but more rewarding than i could
ever dream. we had a daughter after 10 years we decided no more.
without her, we would never done dvc. beyond normal genetics,
she has my mother red hair. the ariel kind. i was never a disney
fan..did not want to go & fight the crowds. bleak! that all changed
by not a cast member or any extra thing or knicker blocker. on the
lil'boats back to wl , i noticed this lil'girl, who kept tugging @ her
mother...insisting/begging for something. a toy? a doll? she must
have been around 3 or less years. finally the mother said excused
me, can our daughter sit besides your daughter..she believes
that she is the "real ariel". of course. our daughter was only 5,
and did not understand. but that's ok, because this lil'girl
was jsut thrilled, watching her with awe. what a wonderful
gift she gave us . i will never forget her.

we can go anytime and/or stay anywhere we desire. that is not
what we know to be anything special. all our trips are building
the dream we started ..from a time long ago. our first apartment
was not as big as our current living. no matter, we stayed
in cheap hotels, & skimped on anything we can except our
kids. those memories are just as important as the ones
we are making today. they have all their stuff, even that old
musket that i had to dragged all over the parks.

so when many get into ratings, i just don't think they are as
important as being there & the encounters. as for resales vs.
direct, i feel each family have the need to decide "what" their
dvc should be- in~deeds...for them to be happy. costs should
be by their budget not their egos. if it is below 50% per
resales then go direct or don't go @ all.

nunzia
11-20-2011, 07:17 AM
WOW..this got long fast.
I agree that if it is called a MEMBERS Cruise by Disney, and if rooms are able to be booked by cash and not points then any MEMBER should be able to book. If they want to change the name to "Directies Cruise" then "Resalies" can't book. Really, to me, the easiest, quickest and most pointed thing to do is simply to give direct purchasers ( who have purchased direct a certian amount of points..not just 25 to be counted direct..like I did when I wanted to buy small VGC chunks ;)) bigger perks in the booking window area. Simple to explain:
You may use your direct purchase points to book your home resort at 11 months, non home resort at 7 months. You may use your resale points to book your home resort at 10 months, non home resort at 6 months. You may book a MEMBERS cruise first day of sales if you own 150 direct buy points, you may book a MEMBERS cruise on cash 10 days after sales begin. So much better that people really know what they give up buying resale or get buying direct. It is always better to KISS

Chuck S
11-20-2011, 07:33 AM
....
You may use your direct purchase points to book your home resort at 11 months, non home resort at 7 months. You may use your resale points to book your home resort at 10 months, non home resort at 6 months.

Not sure this particular change for a home resort would be legally possible, as there is a legal real estate interest, and timeshare laws, to deal with. Then again, it maybe possible, given the documents guarantee only a 1 month home resort priority. Now for non-home resorts such a change is likely legal. But both of these suggestions may cause more headaches than they are worth, given the Disney computer system, CM training, and reservation CM interaction with members.

I have no problems giving direct purchasers, or even direct purchaser with a lot of points, better discounts on tickets, shopping or dining...as those are "just perks"...but home resort usage, IMO, should remain equal.

CarolMN
11-20-2011, 08:09 AM
Well here is what they told me. The disney cruise is considered an exchange and so resale members who purchased after 3/11 are not allowed to book the member cruise because it is still considered an exchange.

I told him that I did not want, nor could I use any points, so there would be no points to exchange. He said it did not matter that it was still an exchange. I asked what they were exchanging and he could not give me an answer, just that this is the policy for new resales.

I informed him that I was very disappointed in DVC's decision to handle a member cruise in this fashion and recommended that they change the name if they are indeed not going to let all members go on the cruise.

He said he would give my concerns to his supervisor and to have anyone else with concerns to send it by email through the website.

So, any resales purchased after the march 2011 deadline is not able to attend member cruises with your membership. Pretty lame in my opinion. Oh well, life goes on.

Thanks again for all your comments.
Kyle

I agree with you - if a member is going to pay all cash, there is no need for them to exchange anything.

I think the real reason has to do with sales. IMO, the main purpose for offering member cruises is sales. Consider who you would rather have in your "captive audience" - a member who previously bought direct or a member who bought resale and already knows about the bargains that may be found there?

What a fantastic opportunity for Disney/DVD! An audience favorably disposed to buy your product, one that even pays for the privilege of listening to repeated sales pitches, and fills up a ship(s) for your fellow department's (DCL) harder to fill departures! In return you spring for some gifts (and raise the price of the cruise to at least partially compensate).

And apparently, these cruises are a lot of fun since so many want to go. Genius! ;) :teeth:

Dean
11-20-2011, 08:29 AM
Not sure this particular change for a home resort would be legally possible, as there is a legal real estate interest, and timeshare laws, to deal with. Then again, it maybe possible, given the documents guarantee only a 1 month home resort priority. Now for non-home resorts such a change is likely legal. But both of these suggestions may cause more headaches than they are worth, given the Disney computer system, CM training, and reservation CM interaction with members.

I have no problems giving direct purchasers, or even direct purchaser with a lot of points, better discounts on tickets, shopping or dining...as those are "just perks"...but home resort usage, IMO, should remain equal.Since DVCMC has complete control over reservations without member input AND other at least 2 other FL based timeshares have already converted to such a system after the fact, a VIP system that effectively did just this would be possible IMO. Of course we're talking DVD vs DVCMC and this is an important distinction in this situation.

nunzia
11-21-2011, 07:04 AM
Not sure this particular change for a home resort would be legally possible, as there is a legal real estate interest, and timeshare laws, to deal with. Then again, it maybe possible, given the documents guarantee only a 1 month home resort priority. Now for non-home resorts such a change is likely legal. But both of these suggestions may cause more headaches than they are worth, given the Disney computer system, CM training, and reservation CM interaction with members.

I have no problems giving direct purchasers, or even direct purchaser with a lot of points, better discounts on tickets, shopping or dining...as those are "just perks"...but home resort usage, IMO, should remain equal.

I think it should ALL remain equal..I'm just throwing stuff out there about changes that are under DVC control that they could implement for a tier system since that seems to be the way they're going. As we discussed, perks have to be negotiated with other divisions, but restrictions are easier for them to put in place. I really don't know what Disney could do on the carrot side to entice people to pay what can be double for the same product.

donaldjack
11-21-2011, 10:24 PM
I spoke with 2 different people at DVC, one was a supervisor, who confirmed the above. I expressed my concern and displeasure over this rule and could not figure it out. Am I not a DVC member? than why am I not allowed to go on a DVC member cruise.

I informed them I knew of the restrictions when I purchased resale including not being able to use points for disney cruises, but not being able to go on a member cruise was not one of them if I wanted to pay cash.

kyle051777
11-21-2011, 10:43 PM
I spoke with 2 different people at DVC, one was a supervisor, who confirmed the above. I expressed my concern and displeasure over this rule and could not figure it out. Am I not a DVC member? than why am I not allowed to go on a DVC member cruise.

I informed them I knew of the restrictions when I purchased resale including not being able to use points for disney cruises, but not being able to go on a member cruise was not one of them if I wanted to pay cash.

Hopefully more people are doing the same.

quirty30
11-22-2011, 08:13 AM
I spoke with 2 different people at DVC, one was a supervisor, who confirmed the above. I expressed my concern and displeasure over this rule and could not figure it out. Am I not a DVC member? than why am I not allowed to go on a DVC member cruise.

I informed them I knew of the restrictions when I purchased resale including not being able to use points for disney cruises, but not being able to go on a member cruise was not one of them if I wanted to pay cash.

Hopefully more people are doing the same.

Um, Kyle....he quoted from your first post, word for word.

OrangeCountyCommuter
11-22-2011, 08:45 AM
Let me get this right...

We are disappointed we can't spend MORE for a cruise then the general public.

We are disappointed we can't be trapped on a ship for a 24/7 non stop "sales pitch"


Maybe it's just me but I don't get the issue. Paying more to be pressured to buy really is not a "perk" IMHO.

Years ago I was jealous of these cruisers.. Now I read the reveiws and go :confused3 I have no idea why I would pay what they want for what they deliver expect to feel "special" And... I don't need that extrenal validation :)

Brian Noble
11-22-2011, 08:53 AM
Maybe it's just me
It's not just you.

KingRichard
11-22-2011, 10:01 AM
The one and only reason they don't want resales on these cruises is!

Don't buy now on the ship. I paid half price and so can you.

Wait till you get home and go to this site or that site and look how much you will save.

This is a private event and DVC can invite who the like. :confused3

DisneyBill
11-22-2011, 10:09 PM
The one and only reason they don't want resales on these cruises is!

Don't buy now on the ship. I paid half price and so can you.

Wait till you get home and go to this site or that site and look how much you will save.

This is a private event and DVC can invite who the like. :confused3

Don't they still have that internet thing available on the ship? Or do they just block TTS and the like?

kyle051777
11-23-2011, 09:26 AM
Um, Kyle....he quoted from your first post, word for word.

Wow, you are right. I am not sure why he would just copy my post. Oh well.

Have another trip booked to HHI and WDW, BLT and AKL, in May.

Brian Noble
11-23-2011, 09:54 AM
Don't they still have that internet thing available on the ship? Or do they just block TTS and the like?
They do, but very few people use it, because it is pretty pricey and doesn't work all that well. What's more, these are not people "new to the game", they are already Members. They either already know about the resale market, or they will never bother to find out.