Poll : Gratuities [Archive] - The DIS Discussion Forums

wee-haggis

10-09-2002, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by eeyore0062
Well, since you asked for an opinion, I will be glad to give you mine. I feel that 15% is on the low end of gratuities in this day and age. We tip 20% for service, unless it is less than adequate, then only 15%. DH and I have both had to support ourselves at times on jobs that relied on gratuities, so we have no problem with the concept. We also know that sometimes people can have a bad day, service wise, so we always go with the benefit of the doubt, and always leave at least 15%.

I am sure I will get a load of backlash from my reply...but it is my opinion, and the originator of this post asked for opinions.

Yes indeed eeyore...
I did ask for opinions and they are varied as you can see.
I would like to comment on something you said.
I quote.." we tip 20% for service,unless it is less than adequate.then only 15%"
I have to be honest in saying ,that if the service is less than adequate,you don't give 15% ...you give nothing!
People seem to have forgotten what the concept of tipping is all about.
Heres my take:
If you find that the service was equal to or beyond what your expectations are , then a tip is expected and deserved.
You are under no obligation to tip anone if you don't think it was merited (unlike some who do it no matter what).
As a patron of that particular establishment...it is not my responsibility to pay the wages of its employees.....Its the restaurants!
Lastly.... the automatic 15% gratuity is the death knell for good service....Where's the incentive for the employee?

Tinkbell

10-09-2002, 07:22 PM

I also start out with 15% and take it up or down based on the service. There was 1 time in my whole life of dining experiences (not at WDW) where I felt that no tip was needed. The server who got no tip was a waitress who was very rude to my family. My grandma wanted a water with no ice . When she brought a water WITH ice my grandma nicely asked her if she could bring her one with no ice. This waitress then picked up my grandma's spoon and began scooping out the ice from her water and placing it on her salad plate. After that, she totally ignored our table. We had to ask the hostess for refills, etc. There was no need to tip her at all.

I've had many friends work their way through College by relying on tips. It sounds like they are making the "big bucks" but you'd be surprised by how many people fail to tip, or tip very low.

tonilea

10-09-2002, 07:44 PM

As a former "waitress", yes, it wasn't server or food service transportation specialist then, I am normally a generous tipper. Having said that, if a restaurant adds a mandatory gratuity, why don't they just raise the price of the dinner and pay the staff more?? Instead of tacking it on the back door. I can understand a gratuity being included for a large (10 or more) party, and then only 10%, thereby allowing the consumer to determine if service warranted an additional tip.

Just my 2 cents.

Erikarate

10-10-2002, 08:45 AM

We usually tip 20%, unless the service is bad then we tip 15%. If you think about it when gratuity is included in more expensive restaurants, the standard is 18%. Therefore to us, 15% is below the standard, 20% is just above.

I have to say that everyone I know thinks the same way around here...if I saw someone tipping 15% on a good meal with good service, I would tend to think they were cheap.

PLEASE no offense to anyone who tips 15% regularly, what I'm saying is that there may be regional differences, or maybe just my friends are weird or something....:p

travelitis

10-10-2002, 12:21 PM

Tipping is optional and tips should be earned. We start at 15% for acceptable and tip 20% for great service. However, I couldn't help myself and had to read what Miss Manners had to say on this subject. To summarize, she hates the tipping system, finds it archaic, and wishes various U.S. businesses would build the cost of service into their charges like they do in Europe. She refused to give a percentage or dollar figure and said it's not as simple as that.

peachgirl

10-10-2002, 02:32 PM

I just don't get tipping ANYTHING when you get bad service. Let's see...you were rude and didn't do your job...I'm only going to give you a "little" money?

PieInYourEye

10-10-2002, 04:08 PM

I start at 15% and they have to earn more.

And... I don't tip on the tax. I tip on the amount BEFORE tax is added.

hallie

10-10-2002, 05:10 PM

I don't know about Dinsye but when I waited tables I made a whopping 2.12 an hour so tips were basically my salary.

I always tip 20%, sometimes even more when service is outstanding. When the service is so-so it all depends on why it's that way. If it's the kitchens fault, under cooked food, wrong food etc and the server was still great then I still tip 20%. If I'm just ignored by the server, they don't come to check how food is, they're rude etc.. then I tip 15%. If it's REALLY bad and there are problems on all accounts I ask to speak directly to the manager.

Oh and I always take the tip into account before we go out to dinner. If I don't have enough to possibly tip 20% on a 100.00 dinner, then I don't order a 100.00 dinner.

Usually I'm a generous tipper but I do tend to be critical when service is poor because I know all the tricks of trade, so to speak-lol. And no I don't have any money to spare, I just remember all those long hard nights waiting tables vividly-lol.

wee-haggis

10-10-2002, 06:08 PM

To summarize, (Miss Manners)she hates the tipping system, finds it archaic, and wishes various U.S. businesses would build the cost of service into their charges like they do in Europe. She refused to give a percentage or dollar figure and said it's not as simple as that

This is the most sensible statement I've read on this thread.
Thanks

I have to say that everyone I know thinks the same way around here...if I saw someone tipping 15% on a good meal with good service, I would tend to think they were cheap

With all due respect to this poster.......
When I see that you have been three times this year to OKW,Wilderness and Boardwalk Villas....that tells me that perhaps you are in the fortunate position of being able to not only afford an expensive holiday,but have enough cash to be very generous with your tipping...Good for you (I'm not saying this to be rude or because I'm envious...If I were in your shoes I would probably do the same)!....but remember not everybody is that fortunate.
Some of us scrimp and save all year,forgoing any other holidays ,dinners,theatres ,entertainment etc...just so we can have the pleasure of one week in paradise!

minster22

10-10-2002, 09:34 PM

I'm just a bit scared to put my two cents in here but here goes... I have worked in the food service industry for for 36 years now. Many years ago as a manager and as a waitress for the last 20 years. I tip a minimum of 15% for food service and go up from there. When I get really great service my Dh and I, and also other fellow servers friends, we often leave as much as 30%. In most areas of the country the ONLY money as server makes is the tips people leave them. Any wages paid go to pay our taxes, SS etc. This is the way the food service industry is set up and unless it is changed I strongly feel that if you do not like to tip or feel it is unfair to tip that maybe you should only go to a counter service restaurant. I do my job the best I possibly can and take a lot of pride in it, I enjoy serving people and hopefully add to their whole restaurant experience. Sometimes things go wrong, whether with the kitchen, myself , the food itself. It does not happen often and for the most part people are more than understanding and still tip at least the 15%, seeing that I am doing my best to take care of them. And when they do not tip me our IRS has elected to tax me an arbitrary amount determined ahead of time.I also save , scrimp etc to enjoy my WDW vacations and tipping waitpeople, maids, bell staff, valet is one of the most enjoyable ways to spread my hard earned cash around!

disneymom3

10-10-2002, 10:23 PM

Just like the other 90% of the population, I have been a waitress at anything from an upscale restaurant to an ice cream parlor.

I have to say that while, I relied on tips for the majority of my income, I never EXPECTED a tip. Especially if I did a lousy job! I can remeber having a few really off days where a couple of tables in particular just did not get the service they deserved and I knew darn well I wasn't getting a tip and didn't deserve one.

I tip 15% for good service, add on if the service was good, REALLY add on if my group sat and talked and took up that table for a long time, and I definitely go down if service is bad. There have been very few times that I have not left a tip at all, but it has happened. Yes, that is their pay for their job, but if they aren't doing their job, I for one am not going to pay them.

Belle5

10-11-2002, 12:33 AM

I am not entitled to eat in every restaurant I wish just because it's my vacation. I may need to cook in my room, pack a picnic for the car or eat at counter service (if at all in a restaurant). If I don't go into a restaurant expecting good service and realizing that a 15-20% tip should be paid, I should not dine there nor have expectations that I am entitled to dine there. This is exactly the situation my family will be in on our next vacation. Former high dollar diners we will be scrimping and eating much more humbly than we are accustomed to on vacation. I won't entertain the idea of dining somewhere that I won't be able to tip properly. I will, however, have a fabulous vacation!

Uncleromulus

10-11-2002, 05:39 AM

I always start at 15% and most times, we wind up tipping 20%.
I pretty much agree w/ Hallie on this.
I often have said to Mrs. Uncleromulus that I would never, ever get a job as a server. While I would enjoy waiting on folks like me, I have seen all kinds of obnoxious restaurant patrons with whom I wouldn't last one evening.
I think most servers work hard for their money and their tips, and my hat is off to them!!

Erikarate

10-11-2002, 07:41 AM

I agree with Uncleromulus...

For the record, on a RARE occasion we HAVE tipped a minimal amount (maybe even LESS than 15%), but the service and meal had to have been entirely unacceptable. I also think giving a server only 10% let's say rather than NO tip makes a bigger statement (i.e. if you don't give a tip, there's a chance they'll think you forgot). Also, I still believe that as bad as it may be, they're still providing a service to you and therefore should be paid something.

To all those hard-working waitpersons out there, I do appreciate you. It is often your diligence, patience, and personalities that can make a meal from "good" to "memorable". Thanks.:)

peachgirl

10-11-2002, 08:31 AM

if you don't give a tip, there's a chance they'll think you forgot

I know this is the reasoning a lot people use for leaving a small tip when service is unacceptable. But, if the service you received was so horrid that you wouldn't leave a tip, I doubt that the waiter or waitress would be totally oblivious to the fact that they did a bad job and most likely wouldn't be confused as to why there was no tip. If they are so dense as to not know when they give bad service, then I doubt they'd understand a smaller tip either and would just think you're cheap. Besides, if the service was so bad that I didn't leave a tip at all, I most likely would have talked to the manager, leaving no one to doubt why I left no tip.

As for how much to tip, 15% is still the standard, around here at least . For normal, acceptable service that's what I'll tip. I see no need to increase it to 20% for a standard tip. As long as tipping is based on the total tab, servers get a raise every time a restaurant increases their prices, so why increase the percentage of the tip? Frankly, I don't know why we all bought into the raise from 10 to 15, but we did. I don't resent tipping at all, in fact I really enjoy being able to tip generously. I'd much rather have a server that deserves extra than one that deserves nothing!

All that said, I don't see any opinions here on how much and when to tip that I find totally unreasonable. Even though I don't agree with some, I don't think any are out of line with acceptable practices.

raidermatt

10-11-2002, 06:52 PM

This is the most sensible statement I've read on this thread.
So says you...

Some of us scrimp and save all year,forgoing any other holidays ,dinners,theatres ,entertainment etc...just so we can have the pleasure of one week in paradise!
Very true. But if the only way we can afford to eat in a given restaurant is to go cheap on the tip, we probably should be eating somewhere else.

DeeP

10-11-2002, 07:35 PM

This topic has come up many times on the boards and it seems as though different areas of the country have different views and standards of what is an appropriate tip. I also always leave 20% tip if I have good service, less for bad service and more for great service. Wait persons are in a tipped position, they depend on tips for their income, plain and simple, no question about it! If you don't want to tip appropriately then eat at counter service places!! I also have to agree with another poster, it is the same where I live if you leave only 15% tip for excellent service that is considered cheap. If you can afford a $100.00 meal then you should be able to afford a $20.00 tip, if not then you should not be eating at that restaurant. Whenever I read threads on tipping I often wonder what do people tip when they go to a bar and get drinks--do they not tip the bartender because he is only giving you about 2 minutes of service for each round of drinks or do they tip the bartender a total of a couple dollars when they have been sitting there for hours with seats tied up that the bartender could be making money off of with patrons that tip accordingly. I am not rich and I do not waste my money but when you get service and it is a tip position then you need to tip accordingly or do not go to a restaurant, bar, use luggage services, valet parking, etc., that requires tips. We just ordered pizza to be delivered the other night, it was pouring raining and the pizza was brought to our door, piping hot and delicious and cost $12.50 with tax, we gave the delivery person $15.00 and told him to keep the change. To us it was well worth the $2.50 tip for the service we got, we got hot, delicious pizza delivered to our door in a timely manner and we did not have to go out in the pouring rain to get it! That is service and that is what tip positions are all about.

travelitis

10-11-2002, 08:00 PM

Tips means To Insure Prompt Service. That about says it all for me. I think this thread illustrates what Miss Manners said about tipping being very personal.

What I don't like is going into a Dairy Queen or Baskin Robbins and finding a tip cup on their counter. Please! They are fast food workers, and tipping fast food workers is not customary.

wee-haggis

10-11-2002, 08:26 PM

Tips means To Insure Prompt Service.

Very interesting comment.
I did'nt know thats what it meant.
I think this explanation says it all in that the tip is a reward for good or prompt service.It is NOT mandatory or indeed expected everywhere you go.
I don't mind tipping for good service and generally speaking that turns out to be the case the majority of the time.
Its when some service personnel think that its their god given right to expect a tip from each and every person for each and every service.......that what annoys me.
I'll finish with an example from two weeks ago.
After arriving at our hotel on a airport bus, my wife and i lifted our suitcases off of the bus an onto the sidewalk. As we are exiting the back door of the bus, the driver rushes forward with hand extended. I just looked at him and said "For what".While at the same time other passengers are handing him $5 bills (even although their bags are also on the sidewalk).
Unfortunately these drivers are trying to take advantage of the tipping process and perhaps spoiling it for the genuine folk who deserve it .The $5 tippers are only encouraging them to do so with their actions !

calgarygary

10-11-2002, 09:16 PM

Tips are always to be earned and rewarding stupidity

If they are so dense as to not know when they give bad service, then I doubt they'd understand a smaller tip either and would just think you're cheap

is going to lead to poor service. Folks, lets look at the economics from the other end. Chances are, a waiter or waitress in the world is doing two turns minimum per evening (the number of times the table is turned over to new customers). If they have a 20 seat section at an average bill of $30./seat then their nightly sales are apx. $1200. Is a waiter or waitress position really worth $240 + wages per night. Now it was mentioned that the IRS (Revenue Canada up here in snowy Calgary) gets their percentage - the fact is very few waiting staff claim 100% of their gratuities. Depending upon their honesty, a waiter or waitress may be "taking home" the equal of a person earning $60k per year. Don't ever tip because you think the poor waiter or waitress needs the income. I worked 10 years as a manager in a quality chain here in Canada and never earned what my waiting staff did - not sour grapes just the facts. You'll notice that minster22 went from managing to waiting! So when it comes to the amount - I say pay them what they earned. If the service was poor nothing, and if the service was great, what you can afford.

One last thing, if the quality of the food was poor, a good waiter or waitress will insure a satisfactory resolution by bringing your problem to the attention of management.

robinb

10-11-2002, 09:25 PM

Did I miss something? Have the WDW restaurants instituted an automatic 15% gratuity? If so, then I'm 100% in favor of it. I usually tip 15-20% and an automatic gratuity would be "no muss, no fuss" for me.

gina2000

10-12-2002, 07:55 AM

I like the tipping system and believe in it.

If I go to an upscale restaurant with upscale service, I tip accordingly. I get great service and a great meal. It's worth it to me to tip 20% or more for that service. Also, keep in mind that in a better restaurant, tables don't turn over nearly as often as in a mid-priced restaurant. The waitstaff generally has less tables and more time to devote to your table. AND LESS TURNOVER. So if you are complaining about tipping in a fine restaurant, then don't go there. These people are trained to perform a job flawlessly and their expertise should be recognized and rewarded accordingly. It's the standard in THIS country regardless of what happens around the world.

Which brings me to my next point. I've had some pretty lax service in MANY parts of the world. Sometimes that built in tip doesn't exactly create an eager waitstaff. So don't count on acceptable service just because the service charge is already paid up front.

If you don't want to tip, or tip well, don't . It's your prerogative. And that's what it's all about. Choice.

But don't be surprised at the reactions you get.

Captain Crook

10-12-2002, 08:38 AM

We start at 20% and go from there. Downward to 15-18% for mediocre-poorer service and up to 22-25% for excellent service. We once left nothing after a rude waiter actually argued with me (and I am a very easy going, non-confrontational person).

I'm with raidermatt and a couple others in thinking that if you must scrimp & save to eat a particular locale you must also include the price of the gratuity in that calculation. I like upscale restaurants but I know my 'comfort zone'. At Disney we usually frequent Flying Fish, Jiko, California Grill, Narcoossee's etc. and I know what our family bill will be. Victoria & Alberts & Shula's are a bit above what makes me comfortable in spending so we generally will not go to them, athough we'd certainly like to be able to...

I'm not big on entitlement theory AND I don't want to set myself up for disappointment - that I can't financally or emotionlly afford the meal (as in, what if that REALLY EXPENSIVE meal isn't that good & yet I still must leave the tip). I don't want to walk out of a restaurant feeling I just blew big bucks, therefore I know what my comfort zone is.

It's like my philoophy about big boys toys. You shouldn't generally purchase something that you can't afford to use. Like an expensive boat. Me, I could comfortably afford to buy, maintain & run a 20 footer probably. My bank account says I could scrimp and buy a 30 footer, so I do. Soon it becomes apparant that the maintenace and operation of that boat is more costly than the 20 footer and after a while of pouring big bucks into an already expensive boat the JOY of boating is long gone. On the other hand, my neighbor, who could also afford the 20 footer, bought an 18 footer and has minimal operating/maintenance costs and a whole lot less into the initial investment, he continues to enjoy his boating while I'm back on the couch watching tv...:p

Sorry for the length.

Oh, one more thing. 20% is now the generally accepted gratuity standard.
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

anniet

10-12-2002, 10:00 AM

I worked ONE NIGHT in a restaurant when I was sixteen and I quit the next day. I only worked in the kitchen cleaning dishes, but I hated it, and I couldn't believe how hard EVERYBODY worked!

Since then I have almost always tipped 15% for average service and 20% or more for exceptional service, and so far at Disney I have gotten nothing less than exceptional service.

If I get very poor service, I might not leave a tip at all and there was the one time my sister and I went to a local Mexican restaurant and the waitress never brought us plates or utensils, and ignored us when we tried to get her attention. (she did bring the food to the table --we were splitting appetizers but even without utensils I don't know how she thought we were going to eat it)

We finally got a busboy's attention and he apologized profusely and brought us what we needed. He even checked back to make sure we didn't need anything else. I left NO TIP on the table and as we were leaving I walked over to the busboy and handed him a $20 tip (our bill was only $30) and told him I thought he should be the waiter and SHE should be bussing tables.

I think a tip is like a report card. If the service is A+ the tip should reflect that, and if the service is a big fat F, there should be no tip and a complaint to the restaurant manager.

calgarygary

10-12-2002, 10:51 AM

When I see people saying that they leave 15% for poor service I am amazed. Rewarding mediocrity will insure just that. I would like to mention to gina2000 that I am asked by U.S. customs where my place of residence is, what the purpose of my visit is, where I will be visiting and for how long I will be there not will I tip 20%. Tipping is a custom that Canadians share with Americans, however, it is viewed here as a reward (the original intention) not as a mandated process of dining. Several years ago, I visited the Hard Rock in Niagara Falls under pressure from my children. Our order had obviously been lost when tables that arrived 45 minutes after us received their entres prior to our apps. Despite bringing our concerns to both wait staff and management in a timely and calm manner, our food did not appear. Three of my children actually fell asleep waiting on their meals! Does this service require only a 15% tip - I think NOT, it deserves nothing. And believe me, the waiter knew he earned it. On the other end, yes great service deserves a great gratuity and 20 to 25% is not the limit. My earlier comment about the amounts that a waiter/waitress can earn will apply to fine dining. Yes there are fewer turns - most fine dining rooms expect 1 and a half turns. Yes the waiting staff have fewer tables, typically 4. However the average check is much higher and so are the total gratuities. The best wait staff in the best rooms can easily approach the equivalent of a 6 figure income (it's that tax reporting thing again). But that is not to say they haven't earned it. I just want to emphasize that the motivation behind the tip should not be for the "poor" waiter/waitress but because the quality of service has earned the tip.

Gary

wee-haggis

10-12-2002, 10:55 AM

If I get very poor service, I might not leave a tip at all

The strange thing about this poll I started is that the majority (like the above post) seem to think that although they don't mind tipping (and normally do so quite generously),the leading poll item for folk who "Don't mind paying the 15% gratuity" is ahead?

The concensus seems to be that the customer should have the right to decide whether (and by how much) he or she decides is suitable for a tip for the server.
For the restaurants to automaticaly tack on 15% removes the incentive for the servers to do a good job.
Let the people decide!

gina2000

10-12-2002, 11:50 AM

LOL, calgarygary, I never once said that a tip was mandatory. What I did say was that a tip, when deserved, follows a protocol and a standard set by the prevailing country or area of the country you are in.

If I receive shoddy service, the waitress receives a shoddy tip based on norms. However, I will never rant over the prevailing standards society has set for tipping when a job is well done just because I don't like the standard or think it's unfair. I factor that cost into my dinner as well as my entire vacation. I don't consider the standard ridiculous and make up my own standards. Overall it's up to me to determine the appropriate amount of money based on the service rendered reflecting the standard of the part of the country I am in, not what I can afford or what I am used to.

In the situation you described, I would have left a minimal tip and complained to the manager on the way out IF the problem was the waitstaff. If the problem occurred in the kitchen, I probably would leave more. Not all disasters are the fault of the waitstaff. As long as they are making a consciencious effort to try to resolve the situation, I won't penalize them.

As far as waitstaff and their IRS reporting, that's not something I care about. If they make 6 figures, they're good at what they do. Not my business.

Jasmine13

10-12-2002, 11:55 AM

About 5 or 7 years ago it crept up to 15% (probably egged on by the restaurants who started to make it mandatory in their bills).

I beg to differ... I waited tables back in the early 80's and standard tip at that time was no less than 15%... it is time to get with the times. 20% is not too much to tip for good service!

Jasmine13

10-12-2002, 12:03 PM

Wee Hagis asked for opinions, and now is shooting down everyone with an opinion that differs from his. Should this thread not be more appropriately placed on the debate board?

WDW2002

10-12-2002, 01:12 PM

Being a bookkeeper in the food industry, I know that the servers do not report more then they have to (at least in our restaurant), so I tend to start my tip at just that the 8% that the Federal Government will mandate as "allocated tips." I will go up from there depending on service and if the service stinks I will leave NOTHING!! Those that tip minimum 15% regardless of service will make up for my no tip.

edited to add
Also in California servers make minimum wage of $6.75 an hour. The same as Fast Food workers who often work just as hard as a sever but recieve no tips. So IMO the servers need to EARN their tip, not just get it for "doing their job."

Captain Crook

10-12-2002, 01:15 PM

I tend to agree Jasmine...

Don't tip if you don't want to but don't rationalize the reasons. It doesn't matter what you think tipping 'should' be , the fact is that waitstaff receive very minimal salaries and make their living from tips. 15% is not enough in this day and age for good or even average service. Further, as was eloquently stated above, it may not be the waitstaff's fault that problems arise or that the food is bad. It isn't right to make the waiter/waitress the scapegoat for all wrongs you may encounter at a restaurant or the object of your displeasure if the issue was out of his or her control (poor food for example).

I don't think anyone has said that if anyone were to receive very poor service that you need to leave 20% or 15% or even 10%...But the reason for stiffing the waitstaff should be due to tbeir specific performance lapses rather than your individual personal justifiation...
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

tonilea

10-12-2002, 02:06 PM

If tipping is added into the bill as a gratuity, then they should just add it into the cost of the dinner and pay the waitstaff accordingly. It is exactly the same as the STUPID fuel surcharge the airlines added last year. If you want $100, then charge $100, not $75 and a $25 gratuity. I am not really anti-tipping, I simply think tipping should be based on service.

I also think that the poll results are misleading, as items 2 and 4 are very similar and I had difficulty deciding which to choose.

wee-haggis

10-12-2002, 03:01 PM

Wee Hagis asked for opinions, and now is shooting down everyone with an opinion that differs from his. Should this thread not be more appropriately placed on the debate board?

You are correct Jasmine.
I did ask for opinions when I started this poll.
In order to stimulate conversation and get ones point over,its only to be expected that replies will be forthcoming.
We are not kids here and you are within your rights just as much as I to offer your opinion and disagreements with others if you choose to do so.

Now.....I am sure very much to the chagrin of Jasmine.,,,lol!
I have another comment on her previous post......
I beg to differ... I waited tables back in the early 80's and standard tip at that time was no less than 15%..

With all due respect .... I beg to differ.......unless of course ,you are only referring to the upscale restaurants that catered to the more well off clientelle.
During the 70s and the 80s the average tip was in the region of 10-15%.(at least this was the case in my travels through US,Canada,UK and Europe).

A kid at heart

10-12-2002, 03:27 PM

If its a buffet and all they are really doing is giving us our drinks then I tip 10%. If its a sit down and the svc is great then I tip 20-25%.
While I was at disney a few weeks ago, the person I was with was the cheapest tipper I have ever been with and he embarrassed me! On our bill of $55 at LTT he left a 1.50 tip! How cheap can you get? I added 8 more to it! The svc was wonderful and they went out of their way to set the table up for my DD's birthday and the food was good too! He did the same thing at a couple of other places we ate.

wdw_dine_junkie

10-12-2002, 03:58 PM

I know posting to these threads are always dangerous, but I'll put my two cents in.

I just got off the phone with my sister who is a server for Outback Steakhouse. I haven't seen this point posted yet (at least on this thread.) They have to share 3%, 1% each for busboys, bartenders and hostesses. She only works 3 nights a week, but claims that even with the average 15% (of which she gets 12%) she averages about $10 an hour. She's a military wife and has been a server for many years and has gotten a $100 tip on a $50 tab, "as appreciation for the families in the service" to no tip at all, when there had been no complaints, no requests and no explanations. She has even had the occasional table lay down $5 before they order and say that is the tip regardless of service. Her wage is $2.12 an hour. So, it's all across the board.

She did say that the worst tips were from fans during the World Cup. I haven't yet traveled to Europe and am unaware of the tipping standards. Are the tips included? Maybe they are not aware that tips are not included in the US and servers do not receive the same salary as those in another country? Don't flame me, I don't know this answer...

I start with 15% and go up for great service. I do tip 10% at buffets. I've remember a night my roommate from college came home in tears because a party of 12 left no tip and that was her only table for the night. (Carrabba's) They paid the last $10 of the bill in change. All the waitstaff pitched in to cover her tip. I know the math might sound good, but if servers were making $60/hr, we would all be doing the same. It's just not the case. Okay, I'm done ranting.

:D

Jeanny

10-12-2002, 03:59 PM

maybe he was "tipping" on only his portion of the bill(s)??? and figured you'd put in your own portion of the tip??? or maybe he's just cheap like you thought. LOL

But to each their own on tipping. I know sometimes I overtip, but like I posted previously, it's at a restaurant I frequent and usually the same server.

melomouse

10-12-2002, 04:16 PM

I have yet to jump into one of these tipping debates, but here goes.

Voted, BTW, but didn't comment.Waiting for things to get interesting. Then my login got messed up for a few days.....

wee haggis - Were you looking for support for your tipping attitudes or were you really interested in understanding other's perspectives?

Jasmine was correct in defining rates from the eighties. I was there. Part of the 80's I waitressed and part of them I ate out quite a bit in all types of food establishments. It was 15%-20% THEN! But then, I live in New York.

A few questions play into the personal tipping attitudes..( are you there wee higgis?)(generic YOU)

What part of the country you were born and raised in? Did you go to restaurants as a kid? What were Mom & Dad's views on food service? Home cooking vs. restaurant food? Servers male and female?

I agree with raidermatt, and gina and jasmine, and many others. Maybe it flies in other parts of the country to stiff someone on a tip, or to expect goldstar service at a family-type restaurant, but it doesn't really work in the metro-areas of the country.

And I strongly agree that if you can't afford the 20% tip without grumbling - or voicing complaints to management as needed, then don't go to dinner.

Flame retardant suit ON!

melomouse
13 days to our next WDW trip!!!!!:bounce:

calgarygary

10-12-2002, 04:50 PM

Gina2000, we raised our concern to the wait staff 20 minutes after ordering. Appetizers in a place like the Hard Rock are designed to hit the table quickly to make the time pass. When another 15 minutes passed we asked for management. Had the waiter brought our concern to the manager earlier, then I would say they had done their job. The manager in turn, failed to expedite our meal. When 45 minutes passed and we insisted that the manager return, his comment was that the restaurant was especially busy that day. The Hard Rock in Niagara Falls during the summer was especially busy? When aren't they? No surprise that Hard Rocks failed north of the border.

I'm just not getting this comment about tipping was 15% back then and it's time to increase it? The average restaurant tab in the 70's would have been about $10 to $15 per person in a typical quality but not fine dining restaurant. 15% of that would work out to $1.50 to $2.25 per person. Seems to me that anyone who has worked from the 70's into 2002 has seen their tips increase quite handsomely without an increase in the percentage that some think is mandated.

As far as following the "customs" of the area you visit is concerned, if this was stricktly adhered to, we wouldn't have hotel chains now would we.

wee-haggis

10-12-2002, 05:49 PM

wee haggis - Were you looking for support for your tipping attitudes or were you really interested in understanding other's perspectives?

Why does everyone get so upset when I have the "audacity" to actually make a comment about their post?
People have their opinions...I respect that...but it does'nt mean that I have to just sit back and say "C'est la vie".
I'm curious by nature and I'm interested in finding out how or why other opinions differ from mine.
It does'nt mean that I want to change their way of thinking...that would be very unlikely.

It was 15%-20% THEN! But then, I live in New York.

Let me see if can put this a different way...
When you travel (and I have quite extensively) you get to see the habits and customs of other towns,cities and countries.
Yes..indeed I'm sure in NY/NY in the 80's the going rate was 15-20% as was the case in London,Paris and Rome.
But,there are a million and one other towns that are not considered major metropolis's and where the tipping customs are somewhat different.

Maybe it flies in other parts of the country to stiff someone on a tip,
Nowhere on this thread has there been any mention of STIFFING anyone!
It is so unreasonable to suggest that if you get good service you pay an appropriate tip...and if you don't get good service..you don't??

WebmasterPenny

10-12-2002, 06:07 PM

You wanna know what I think? I think sometimes we have to accept the fact that we all need to agree to disagree on occasion :)

wee-haggis

10-12-2002, 06:18 PM

Here...Here....Disneymad.
I think this one has run its course !
I'm getting tired typing!

skiwee1

10-12-2002, 07:30 PM

I tip 15% for average service, less or nothing for poor to bad service, and 20% or more for great service. Buffets get my 15% also and maybe more if they are really attentive and on their toes.

gina2000

10-12-2002, 07:46 PM

Calgarygary (I like that name), I have no problem with the way you handled the problem at the Hard Rock. Quite frankly, they haven't been the hit that was expected in the states, either. I have no problem with letting the management know how I feel or reflecting it in my tip.

As far as custom of the area, I think you are way off base. A typical example of price adjustment occurs with the McDonalds chain both in the States and abroad. Prices are adjusted according to what the market will bear - that is also true of hotel chains and sit-down restaurants alike. That is a management decision concerning pricing. Tipping, as I have suggested, is according to local custom, not according to what an individual is accustomed to. It is your choice to tip accordingly; I don't dispute it. But don't cite hotel chain pricing policies (which adjust from market to market) as a reason to tip according to your preferences.

As far as tipping in the 70s and 80s, I, too, have travelled extensively and have seen marked differences from country to country and have tried to observe local custom. Most places in Europe charge a service charge - however, many waiters expect a "sweetener" - a bit of change left on the table as a good will gesture indicating that the service was on par with expectation. Many Caribbean islands add a service charge to cover the cost of breakage and linen laundry with very little going to the waitstaff. In those places, a tip is expected. As far as percentage is concerned, I try to emulate local custom - be it 10 or 20%. I have no intention of insulting a waitstaff that has tried its best to ensure I have a memorable meal.

eeyore0062

10-12-2002, 10:04 PM

I too waited tables from 1982 until 1990... I worked everywhere from a pizza parlor to a fine seafood restaurant. The standard time during those times was 15% according to the little tipping guide that people carried in their pockets to determine tips, at each of the places that I worked. My pay from the restaurant, itself was $2.02 per hour. The only way we got paid more, was if we had no tables the entire time we were there, and then the restaurant paid us regular minimum wage, and that was $3.15- 3.45 an hour. Sometimes that was more than what we walked out of the restaurant with when we were tipped.

I agree with Jasmine,Melomouse, and others... if you can't afford to go to a restaurant and tip, then eat counter service where tips aren't expected.

SmileyJoyz

10-13-2002, 02:36 AM

Ah yes...when I first saw this thread I thought to myself "nah, don't read it...you'll just get caught up in it". Alas, my boyfriend and I couldn't resist and now I feel the need to respond.

First and foremost, I think I have reluctantly accepted that people are going to tip how they think they should and no amount of yelling, fighting or arguing on this board or elsewhere are going to change some people's minds. That still doesn't stop me from wanting to drop a few of my own thoughts. :) I think the funny thing is that I have yet to see a former server/waitress/waiter ever tell me that they won't tip at least 15%. I think it's because after you've worked in the industry (actually on the floor waiting on tables) you understand the ups and downs that every night can bring. I personally watch for things like a server who might have a large party or an unusually large section of tables. I look for that table with screaming kids or the punky teens who I have a creeping suspicion will not leave a big tip. And yes, it is just who I am...to take these things into consideration when I determine what my tip will be. Take my boyfriend for instance. He works at one of the largest and busiest restaurants in the city of Chicago...and if you've visited here you likely know what I'm talking about. He will often go out of his way to take care of children (he brings sliced bananas to the tables for families with young children) or large parties. And yet bamm...you can do everything in your might and people will still leave 10%...maybe 15%...or sometimes in his case $1 on a $100 bill. And no, it's not because he's a horrible server. Quite the opposite really and it's not because I'm biased....

So yes, there are some out there who argue that you will tip based on service received...but that is obviously a very subjective matter. But he (nor I when I was still a server) doesn't discriminate based on the table and whether he "thinks" he'll get a good tip. Everyone gets the same. So then, take a day when you consistently do your best and people still leave maybe 10 or 15%. Guess what, at this particular restaurant if you leave the bus boy anything less than $25...you'll get in trouble with a manager. Then you have the bartender and food runner to tip out and maybe even the dessert person if they had to make a bunch of desserts for you. It doesn't matter that you had lousy tips all day. You are still expected to tip out a certain amount. So to the person who leaves this minimum 8% that the govt makes you claim...shame on you (which btw has since gone up...the government now expects that you are WALKING HOME with 10% of what you sold). At most restaurants that have a bar or busboy, you have to give at least 3-5% of what your SALES were (no, not your tips, what you actually SOLD in food and drinks) to someone else...and sometimes a lot more than that.

I relate this story not to bore you (although I probably did for some) but to maybe shed a little light on this issue. For instance, many people probably don't know that the standard hourly wage in IL for servers is $3.09 an hour. You do not get a raise after so many years of service nor do your wages go up if the restaurants raise their food prices, as another poster suggested. In fact, at one Chicago chain servers actually make $2.64 per hour because the management automatically charges them 45 cents per hour worked for bread and soup...regardless if they ever even eat the stuff. And I'm sure there are just as many nuances all across the country. I for one didn't know that servers in CA made so much more than their IL counterparts...but that doesn't mean I'll tip less when I go to L.A. in January.

So then you could say hey, this is all great stuff...but it's not my problem that the restaurant industry is in such a state. Well let me tell you something...if we went to a European mode, as some suggest, service would go down the tubes my friends. The attitude of Americans differs so much from Europeans (and trust me, I've spent enough time in France to know) that it just would never work. People are already complaining about an automatic 15% gratuity. I do think it's the American way to be given the freedom to choose your tip, but that 15% for certain number of parties is because 1.) big groups can't always handle the math and 2.) a server has likely put a lot of time and effort in that table vs other tables they had...the restaurant wants to make sure they get compensated at least somewhat...otherwise I GUARANTEE you it would often happen that people would be left 10% or less...and not even based on bad service but simply because some people are cheap (refer to the poster who had the friend who left $1.50). But you should do so in an informed manner, not because you're afraid to part with those hard earned dollars. I'm a college grad barely making it...and my boyfriend and I have been saving for this trip for a while now...but that doesn't mean that we would ever think of not tipping someone an acceptable amount because we don't want to part with our hard-earned $$$. If you want the service, you need to pay for it.

And wee hagis...well, I've actually tempered my reaction to your posts...but let's just say that you if you are so intent on getting adequate service for what you're willing to tip...I suggest that you try putting out what you think will be an acceptable tip on the table BEFOREHAND next time...and see what happens to you.

travelitis

10-13-2002, 03:02 AM

While we tip 15% for acceptable service and 20% for good service, which seems to be a popular trend, I don't agree that paying servers more in wages rather than them depending on tips would negatively impact service. We like to cruise, and tipping is a hot subject with cruisers. The last 2 cruises we've opted to have the gratuities automatically charged to our account daily. Many passengers have said service would decline with this system because the staff doesn't have to earn their tips, but we got outstanding service that was every bit as good as the times we waited until the end to tip. If restaurants paid their waitstaff decently, it'd be like other businesses. If you don't perform, you're out of a job. There would certainly be motivation to provide good service, and servers would know how much they were making at the end of the day. I would think it would be better for them rather relying on the luck of the draw.

Most large parties are terrible tippers. They see the big lump of money and think it's too much not thinking about how much extra work the server had. However, with our family when we're told by a restaurant how much to tip, that's it. If they're demanding 15%, then that's what they're getting. They just missed out on the other 5%.

wee-haggis

10-13-2002, 07:29 AM

If restaurants paid their waitstaff decently, it'd be like other businesses. If you don't perform, you're out of a job. There would certainly be motivation to provide good service, and servers would know how much they were making at the end of the day. I would think it would be better for them rather relying on the luck of the draw.

I think Travelitis has made a good point.
Other than the odd poster,nobody has even mentioned the fact that some of these restaurant chains (who are obviously making a nice profit..thankyou very much),even consider paying their employees a reasonable wage instead of depending on the customer to boost it to a reasonable level.

I suggest that you try putting out what you think will be an acceptable tip on the table BEFOREHAND next time...and see what happens to you.

SmileyJoyz, I'm sorry but I had to laugh at your comment toward the end of your post.
Do you realize that what you are suggesting is nothing more than blackmail.
ie:If I don't fork over a tip considered by some to be the norm,then you don't get good service!

Why does the onus have to be on the customer to bring the wages of the servers up to a reasonable level?
It is obvious that the profiteering restaurants are simply taking advantage of their employees?
A good example is with the Sheraton chain employees in Canada who are unionized.They are making over minimum wage,the company is still thriving quite nicely and the restaurants still have a regular clientelle (who still tip by the way....I'm not suggesting they don't).
I do realize that this is a hotel restaurant chain and it probably differs from regular restaurants in the sense that the likelyhood of union representation is not there.
I did also recognize that many of the previous posters were ex or present wait staff, so I guess its only to be expected that some might get upset by my comments.
The thing is, I'm actually advocating higher wages for you.The only difference is I want the company to pay it...not the customers (just like any other commercial business).

gina2000

10-13-2002, 08:08 AM

Wee-haggis, I believe to some degree you are playing devil's advocate here. Take a look at some of these quotes....

Originally posted by wee-haggis

Seriously though...To pay $20 tip on $100 dinner is just plain ridiculous (unless,of course he or she sat at your table and spoon fed you the entire meal.

Right here you object to people making a decision based on performance because it doesn't agree with your perception of value.

And here....

Originally posted by wee-haggis
The concensus seems to be that the customer should have the right to decide whether (and by how much) he or she decides is suitable for a tip for the server.
For the restaurants to automaticaly tack on 15% removes the incentive for the servers to do a good job.
Let the people decide!

In the US, a gratuity is only added to a bill if the table has 6 or more people eating. Otherwise, it is at the patron's discretion to decide the dollar amount they choose to leave. However, within a society, norms are established based on cost of living. People try to frame their tipping based on these norms. If our society deems 20% as an average, leaving 15% for a fabulous experience is not enough. Your last comment in this statement was, "Let the people decide!" I think they did.

Now here you say....

Originally posted by wee-haggis
Lastly.... the automatic 15% gratuity is the death knell for good service....Where's the incentive for the employee?

If that is the case, then raising salaries and reducing tipping opportunities is also a death knoll. If the waitstaff does not have a tipping incentive to work towards via providing better service, then lax service ensues by your own estimation.

But yet, here you say.....

Originally posted by wee-haggis
If restaurants paid their waitstaff decently, it'd be like other businesses. If you don't perform, you're out of a job. There would certainly be motivation to provide good service, and servers would know how much they were making at the end of the day. I would think it would be better for them rather relying on the luck of the draw.

You can't have it both ways. You suggest that waitstaff should receive better pay. That negates incentive no matter where the better pay comes from - be it the corporation or the automatically added service gratuity.

Oh, and by the way, most good restaurants will fire waitstaff that does not perform. It reflects directly upon them and their repeat business. Who do you know that goes back to a restaurant after receiving poor service?

wee-haggis

10-13-2002, 09:12 AM

In the US, a gratuity is only added to a bill if the table has 6 or more people eating. Otherwise, it is at the patron's discretion to decide the dollar amount they choose to leave.

The above and following quotes is from gina2000.

Actually, I'm a non-American and I know thats not the case.
In several restaurants in Florida only 2 weeks ago we paid 15% gratuity with a party of 4.
The difference is that if you were not happy with the service,you could ask for the 15% to be removed (It stated that right on the bill.....I never did that by the way).

If that is the case, then raising salaries and reducing tipping opportunities is also a death knoll. If the waitstaff does not have a tipping incentive to work towards via providing better service, then lax service ensues by your own estimation

I think a pretty good incentive is to do your job ..or your out!
(But...unfortunately this will never happen until the restaurant pay rates get into the 21st century).

You can't have it both ways. You suggest that waitstaff should receive better pay. That negates incentive no matter where the better pay comes from - be it the corporation or the automatically added service gratuity

By the way you quoted me proceeding your quote.
It was'nt actually my quote....lol...mmmm..I'm confused too!
This is partially due to my inexperience with making use of the quote process on these boards.
Here is my quote:
For the restaurants to automaticaly tack on 15% removes the incentive for the servers to do a good job

I have been so intent in replying to other posters' comments that I find that I'm accidentally contradicting myself.
I appologize for the misunderstanding.
I hope that nobody is too upset by my comments.
I'm really quite a nice guy....honestly.(I'm just too argumentative much to my wife's anoyance)!
I think I've come to the end of my thread on this (no pun intended).
Over and out..amen.

SmileyJoyz

10-13-2002, 01:08 PM

wee hagis--my suggestion was meant to be sarcastic. Although I have actually encountered servers who have had this happen to them...a repeat customer who would take a dollar off the table if, after his watch hit 5 minutes and he had not be revisited by his server yet to check on him.

As for the restaurants paying servers better wages, if it DID somehow happen, it would only mean that you as customers would end up paying more for their meal. Do you really think any business out there is going to eat into their profits to pay people more?? No...they will raise the cost of your food to make up for the difference. And so, what I meant by my post was that it would never happen because too many people would be against having their food cost more...if it did happen, it would in effect be an automatic tip (even if it wouldn't be called that anymore)...which I believe is exactly what you were arguing against (the 15% gratuity). Some McDonald's around here pay their employees $7 an hour...but that far from means that they are "better" employees or give the greatest service. Giving servers better hourly wages is still going to take more money out of your pocket in the end...but with tips the way they are now you at least still get to make that choice of how much. Granted you won't be very popular if you consistently tip low (and who knows, maybe you don't...maybe you just want to incite some debate on the boards) but I'd just ask that you walk a mile (or 3 or 4 in an average night) in a server's shoes before you make blanket statements about people not caring about their job or their customers. I may not like paying for an oil change, but until I learn how to do it myself (which I have no desire to) I'm willing to pay those people to do it for me. If you don't like dining out, then learn how to cook better meals at home. :) :)

End of discussion for me. ;) ;) ;)

LtG

10-13-2002, 04:24 PM

I'm pretty sure that you do not have to pay a tip that's included in the bill.

For whoever said that waiters make around 60K. I waited tables a bunch of years ago and I made $200 a week for six shifts. After taxes my check was around $35 a week. That works out to a little over $12,000. Waiting tables is generally not the way to get rich.

Mike

robinb

10-13-2002, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by SmileyJoyz
So then you could say hey, this is all great stuff...but it's not my problem that the restaurant industry is in such a state. Well let me tell you something...if we went to a European mode, as some suggest, service would go down the tubes my friends.

I disagree. I have travelled extensively to places where the gratuity is included (UK, France, Japan) and did not see a degradation in service.

I think gratutities should be included in the price of the food. It makes things easier all around.

Personally, I think tipping for restaurant service is arcane. It gives people a false sense of control over their meal and service. Does the server know that a customer starts at 20% and mark down for every infraction? No. Do they know that a customer doesn't "believe" in tipping. No. Do they know that a customer will tip an even 15% without thinking? No. Good servers will treat every table the same. Bad servers will either treat everyone poorly or will make a snap value judgement about the pair of LOLs or the people with the 5 kids and just treat them poorly. Tipping after the fact does not change behavior before the tip. Good servers will still be good and bad servers will still be bad.

Can some of the people in the UK weigh in here? I'd be curious how they feel about American tipping habits.

WebmasterPenny

10-14-2002, 05:22 AM

DOH!

And here I was trying to keep my head down ;)

Ok, I am in the UK and I will give you my take on things.

We DO tip in the UK. However, not anywhere near like you folks in the States do. (I think in general, we only tip in restaurants and taxi's - oh and maybe bellman, but I can't afford to stay in any hotels over here that are up-market enough to employ bellman, LOL, so that rules me out) Waitstaff are not wonderfully paid over here, but it is much better than in the US. If I were to go out for a meal over here - and was especially happy with service, I'd be looking to tip 10%. If service was ok, but nothing special, it would be less. If service was poor/slow, there would be no tip at all. Period.

For Brits visiting the US, it can be difficult to get into the right 'frame of mind' - tipping for food, drinks and goodness knows what else it seems sometimes, LOL - for us, the amount of people you are expected to tip (in general) and the % seems excessive compared to our habits at home, especially when you are talking as high as 20%+. As a result, the Brits in general are known to be poor tippers. A catch 22 situation has developed. Waitstaff may not work so hard serving a Brit because they think there will be little or no tip at the end (Darn accent is a bit of a giveaway!). The Brit then receives poor service :mad: therefore they don't want to leave a tip! I personally am, however, a firm believer of 'When in Rome...' So I do tip more than I EVER would at home. Generally, I leave around 15% for good service (or $1 a drink at the bar - I've learned it's important to keep my barman sweet, hehehe) - but the service would have to be exceptional for me to leave more.

There are good servers and bad servers everywhere - I've been well treated in the UK, and I've been poorly treated in the US....and vice versa.

Given the choice - personally I prefer the system in the UK. Yes, I pay more for my meal, but pay a smaller % tip - the 'incentive' for the server to put that little bit of effort in for you is still there. It is unthinkable over here that we feel obliged to pay a tip simply because that is the person's salary- at the end of the day, I am not that person's employer, the restaurant is. It's believed a person is tipped for the service they provide over and above the minimum required effort to do their job. Because of the Brit 'tipping reputation' we have in the tourist areas of the States, the US system is actually prejudicial against me - regardless of my own tipping habits, therefore, for that reason alone, I'm not so keen on it.

wee-haggis

10-14-2002, 06:54 AM

It is unthinkable over here that we feel obliged to pay a tip simply because that is the person's salary- at the end of the day, I am not that person's employer, the restaurant is. It's believed a person is tipped for the service they provide over and above the minimum required effort to do their job.

LOL!!!.....Disneymad has actually managed to say in 1 paragraph what I've been trying to say in 10 posts.
Bravo!

gina2000

10-14-2002, 07:23 AM

Hey, Wee......I sent you a pm on "how to quote".

BTW....different countries, different rules. Can't help that! And unfortunately, I won't penalize the server for the custom of the country.

Here's a good example. In Aruba, non-American/European style restaurants (usually owned and operated by Arubans) charge a service charge of 15% above the cost of dinner. Virtually none of it goes to the server. It goes towards linen cleaning, breakage and restaurant maintenance. Many restaurants explain that practise right on the menu. So what do I do? Penalize the server? NO WAY! Would you????

SmileyJoyz

10-14-2002, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by robinb
I disagree. I have travelled extensively to places where the gratuity is included (UK, France, Japan) and did not see a degradation in service.

robinb--you missed my point. I think that Europeans provide outstanding service!!! We, as Americans, however, do not think the same way as Europeans do. In Europe eating is an art form (and they aren't as overweight as us Americans!!) and servers don't believe in rushing people or discriminating. My point was that if we tried to do as the Europeans do (including gratuity in the price of the food) you would NOT get the same results. I could go on and on about the differences in mores, honor and respect that exist between America and some of the countries you mention but that's not the point. Take an employee at a fast food chain (and no, not all everyone who works at a McDonald's, etc is a slacker) who doesn't care about his/her job. Same thing would happen if people didn't have to work for their tips. You would still have some good servers but you wouldn't get rid of the bad servers, no matter how much the wages were raised.

robinb

10-14-2002, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by SmileyJoyz
Take an employee at a fast food chain (and no, not all everyone who works at a McDonald's, etc is a slacker) who doesn't care about his/her job. Same thing would happen if people didn't have to work for their tips. You would still have some good servers but you wouldn't get rid of the bad servers, no matter how much the wages were raised.

I still don't see how me tipping someone poorly at the end of the meal will get rid of a bad server. They quit? My guess is that a bad server will be fired instead under either pay scale. As for fast food employees I have found them much the same all over the world :D.

So ... I guess we'll just agree to disagree ;).

SmileyJoyz

10-14-2002, 11:58 AM

Actually, I'm just confused by what your stance is in the first place. Europeans and Americans---different people, different attitudes, different results. :) :) But I do agree that in either model the bad servers will quit/get fired (we DO agree on something!). But then another bad server could just (unknowingly) be hired in his/her place. And you, the customer, would still pay for the server's salary in either model as well. In the tipping model, you get to choose how much. In the higher wages model, you have most of that choice taken away from you (unless you choose to leave extra) because they write the cost of higher wages into their food prices.

wee-haggis

10-14-2002, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by SmileyJoyz
In the higher wages model, you have most of that choice taken away from you (unless you choose to leave extra) because they write the cost of higher wages into their food prices.

Would'nt it be fair to say ( like any other job on the market),higher wages attract higher level of job candidate/applicant?
Also, low paid jobs generally have a high turnover
(constant re-training by management).
If turnover is kept to a minimum ,the workers would have job familiarity and experience which would be beneficial to the customer and the restaurant.
I think it was Disneymad who said that it really does'nt matter how you pay the restaurant whether it be...
Bill + Gratuity
or
Bill + Tip
or
Bill on its own
( the latter is assuming a higher level of pay for the servers),the end result is probably about the same (as far as $ out of your pocket is concerned) .

SmileyJoyz

10-14-2002, 01:30 PM

The problem with the notion of higher wages automatically attracting better employees is flawed when applied to the restaurant industry. First of all, the idea of waiting on someone hand and foot is not appealing to many people, which is maybe why the serving industry is filled with a disproportionate number of less than ideal workers. I ask you to ask yourself why you have never worked in the industry. I don't expect an answer, I just think it's something you should think about. Second, you have to think of why people go into serving in the first place. While in college I could maybe average $80-$100/night on a weekend (for about 7 hours of work overall, from start to finish and I worked in a fairly good restaurant). I worked very hard for my tips, but I couldn't make that working at a department store, business, etc. Unless the food industry planned on paying people MORE than they could make at one of these other jobs, what would be the incentive to take such a job? Oh sure you can get criticized and demoralized while working the cash register at Walmart, but I guarantee you it happens twice as often if you are food serving. People go out to eat with the idea of having a relaxing meal with no worries (as they should). This demands more of the person serving them than it ever took me to ring up a sale at the local store. I came home more frustrated, exhausted and dejected far more often than I ever did with any of the other jobs I have ever had (not to say that this was the norm every night).

So of course in theory it sounds nice. Pay the same amount as area stores around a restaurant and only tip a little extra if the service was outstanding. But I don't know of too many people who would say yes, I will run around screaming babies and kids on the floor to get some extra salad dressing for table #3 while I check on the appetizer for table #5 and make sure I bring out the milk for table #2 and individual checks for the people at table #1, all for $6.50 an hour with little promise that I'll make much more than that. Tell me how many people out there are willing to do that even with the promise of good tips right now?? You aren't going to get the cream of the crop saying "yeah, I want to wait on people now that they pay more". It doesn't make a difference how much you pay an hour, you aren't going to pull in all the great employees because the profession isn't thought of with high regard. How many people do you see clamoring to pick up your garbage? Not too many I suspect, but trash collectors are paid fairly well around here. Doesn't mean that people are racing to sign up though. I dare you to work a week at a busy restaurant, and you will see what I mean.

BTW, I stopped serving almost two years ago when I graduated college and thankfully have a much less stressful job now. The turn over you talk of would still happen. Where do you think a lot of college students make their money? Who else would be so flexible with our hours???

So I guess I lied with my second post and said I was done. But now I really need to be. I don't know what I would have thought if I had never worked in a restaurant, but I can tell you that it opened my eyes to many things. I had people call me names, treat me with disdain as if I were a stupid high school dropout and act like I had nothing better than to wait on only them. The whole attitude towards the profession needs to change (notice how people have only pointed out all the evil bad servers they had) before you can ever hope for some solution beyond having to do the math to leave at least a 15% tip. Even if you don't want to leave a tip, there are still enough of us out there who will.

WDW2002

10-14-2002, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by SmileyJoyz
Even if you don't want to leave a tip, there are still enough of us out there who will.
And shouldn't this be what it all comes down to?? It should be a choice?

I am more then glad to leave a tip for a server who goes out of their way to serve me. I am less inclined to want to leave a tip for a server who is in fact just doing his/her job. And I have to say in most cases 95% of the servers I have run in to do bare minimum.

Bob NC

10-14-2002, 04:51 PM

I usually tip 15% at a minimum and frequently 20 - 25 %.

Let me ask opinions on how anyone else would have tipped in this situation. We went out to eat last Friday night, (3 adults, 2 kids), fairly expensive restaurant, (Approx $18 - $28 entree range). 3 Adults had alcoholic drinks, we shared 4 expensive appetizers before ordering dinner. Service was fine except for one thing. We started ordering dinner and the waiter had no pad or pen out so I said, "Maybe you should write this down", I hate when waiters try to remember complicated orders. He says, "Oh, I'll get everything right". My wife was delivered the wrong type of potato, baked vs. sweet, my daughter was delivered the wrong kind of sandwich, hamburger vs. chicken, 2 of 3 salad dressings were incorrect.

This whole deal about waiters trying to impress us with their memory is a huge pet peeve of mine. How would you all have tipped in this situation?

wee-haggis

10-14-2002, 04:56 PM

You did.nt say if you tipped in this situation?
If your minimum is 15%.
Do you mean 15%...when you actually DO tip
or
15% minimum no matter what the service (ie: your example)

My opinion......."No Tip For You Muchacho!"

gina2000

10-14-2002, 04:59 PM

I would have been pissed. Big time. Probably would have left about 12% and a request with the manager that the waiter learn to write.

I know many people would leave nothing or next to nothing. I think 12% is a huge insult - especially in the NY metro area. He'd get the message.

WDW2002

10-14-2002, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by Bob NC
How would you all have tipped in this situation?
I would probably have tiped ZIPPO. But then you have to ask did the kitchen mess up the order or did the server....I am likely to believe the server since he did not write down the order.

gina2000

10-14-2002, 05:03 PM

Boy....we all leaped on this one! LOL LOL LOL LOL

Bob NC

10-14-2002, 05:09 PM

I left 15%. LOL, the peppercorn NY strip with brandy cream sauce was good enough to alleviate some of my upset. Though, really, it WOULD have been higher if he hadn't screwed himself.

But then you have to ask did the kitchen mess up the order or did the server....

Frankly, I don't have to ask myself that question. I look at the waiter or waitress as my representative in the kitchen. If my daughter orders a burger and they bring a chicken sandwich, I pin the whole deal on the server.

If the server wants my 15 - 20% they have to be responsible for SOMETHING other than simply being a delivery person.

gina2000

10-14-2002, 05:18 PM

Well, if you had mentioned the NY strip with brandy cream sauce in your original post.......;)

And as much as we all have different ideas as to what an appropriate tip is or what should be left in a less-than-desireable situation, the bottom line is that there is a choice. And for me, that's what it's all about.

Now let's get back to that steak.......:p

polyfan

10-14-2002, 06:46 PM

I know this will get flaming, but- I have no sympathy for servers. There are plenty of other jobs out there that can be just as undesireable with little pay.

PatriciaH

10-14-2002, 09:52 PM

We tip 20%+ for good service, and 15% if the service is not that great. The lowest I have tipped was 10% on really bad service (I would tell the manager in a case like this too. Luckly they are few and far between.) I was a waitress in college and my husband has waited tables too. I am from NY and DH is from MA if that has anything to do with it:) I also waited on tables in the 80's and 15%+ was always the norm even when I was little and we went out to eat (70's.) I also tip the 20% after tax.

I think a lot of people are cheaper than we think. Just the other day DH and I went out to eat and there was a large table next to us. It was a family with a few children, parents and grandparents. After they left another server came over to help the waitress clear and she said to her "never mind a tip they stiffed me $5.00 on the bill." Guess what, she probably had to make this up out of her pocket. She was a good waitress and gave that family with their screaming kids very good service the whole time we were there. Sad.

I will say that I find the trend of putting out tip cups, jars, etc.. at places like Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, fast food places weird. Don't they make $6.00+ per hour? I guess it is more $$ for them though.