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lukenick1
03-27-2011, 06:34 PM
We are ready for a family pet. I am interested in a non shedding breed. I see many pups for sale online but I am scared of buying a dog that I cannot interact with. Has anyone bought a dog from a website online and it was successful?
Thanks

kristieboyd
03-27-2011, 06:35 PM
Be very, very careful with online animal purchases. I friend of mine got scammed out of a few hundred dollars purchasing a dog from an online place.

Deb & Bill
03-27-2011, 06:43 PM
Have you thought about adopting a shelter animal or rescue animal? There are so many of those that are euthanized each month.

luvsmickeymouse
03-27-2011, 07:09 PM
I am in the process of adopting a beautiful poodle puppy from pet finder, she is gorgeous. The process so far has been everything as promised, and with pet finder you don't pay anything until you pick up your pet. Mine was transported from a shelter in Louisiana and we pick her up Friday.

The dog in my signature is my son's dog who is also from a shelter, and he is wonderful, we all love him.

dfchelbay
03-27-2011, 07:42 PM
We are ready for a family pet. I am interested in a non shedding breed. I see many pups for sale online but I am scared of buying a dog that I cannot interact with. Has anyone bought a dog from a website online and it was successful?
Thanks

These are the three websites I use when it comes to looking at dogs. They are Hoobly, Puppyfind and Ebay classifieds. You just put in the breed you are looking for and your city, state and zip. It gives you those dogs for sale in your area. I have had much success. It is local to wherever you are. I put in poodles because its a non-shedding dog, and Orlando, Florida as my location. You can see how it finds those dogs in the geographic location you have chosen. Don't be weirded out by the Ebay site, it's not the same as the auction site...you're not bidding on a dog...lol

http://www.hoobly.com/1946792/1858/0/

http://orlando.ebayclassifieds.com/pets/?q=poodle&catId=100112&distanceAddress=Orlando%2C+FL&lat=28.5383355&lng=-81.3792365&radius=LESS_THAN_75&output=gallery


http://www.puppyfind.com/for_sale/?breed_id=173&order_by=rand&back=%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsubmit%3D1%26str%3Dpoodle%26pa ge%3D1&sid=744f27b8aafca9358b5a69a9bf7a0846&country=248&state=FL

marie1203
03-27-2011, 07:52 PM
I would highly suggest you adopt there are many shelters and rescues for every breed that you can find a puppy that suits your family. We will never buy a puppy. We did that with our first because honestly we didn't know anything better we used puppyfind our pomeranian end up having $2500 of vet bills 3 days after we got (aka puppy mill). Unless you are willing to spend well over $3000 for a dog that you know it has breed right (genetic testing to back it up from reputable breeder)I would adopt. Consider that adoption in many cases can be cheaper because rescues usually have done most of the vet stuff by the time they are put up for adoption. Many dogs are put down every day!

tripplanner2
03-27-2011, 08:14 PM
I believe I used Puppyfind.com. If not it was a site very similar. Anyway, we bought from someone that was local, 1 hour away. We were able to pick from the litter and got to meet our puppy before bringing him home. We spent a lot of time with the breeder and he sells his puppies to all the local stores by me. Like you, I needed a dog that was non shedding and hypoallergenic. So we needed to purchase and not go through a shelter. The same puppy that we paid $900 for cost $2750 plus tax at the local pet store. I got a guarentee and he paid for the first round of shots. He made sure the puppy was healthy before we lost contact. He kept in touch for a decent amount of time. I would highly recommend.

louey
03-27-2011, 08:16 PM
All I can say is Puppymill! Puppymill! anytime you buy a puppy online or at petstore. If you want a specific breed and do not want to adopt a rescue, just make sure you find a reputable breeder. No good breeder would sell online or in news paper they don't have to if they are good. Just be sure to do your homework, it will payoff in the end :)

Just FYI this is a wonderful rescue
http://www.hua.org/component/animals/?animal_type=dog

mjkacmom
03-27-2011, 08:29 PM
ALL puppies you buy online, or in a pet store, are from puppymills, or backyard breeders. PLEASE do not support animal cruelty. Either find a rescue, or find a reputable breeder (will never sell to a store, or ship). The breeder's #1 reason for breeding is to improve the breed, not to make money selling puppies. The breeder will not breed dogs that have any medical problems, and will make sure you neuter your puppy, and agree to return the dog if, for whatever reason, you need to surrender it.

Go on petfinder.com - you can find any breed.

I Believe In Magic
03-27-2011, 08:33 PM
My ex-MIL got her puppy from a breeder in FL, and we live in MI. She had success with it and if you need the name of the service she used I can have my ex call her. LOL (because I can't. haha)

mom2val
03-27-2011, 08:34 PM
Please please please consider adopting a dog! You can use petfinder to find shelters near you and rescue organizations. In 1993 we got a beautiful chesapeake bay retriever from a shelter. We had Katie until she passed in 2008. In 2000 we adopted a chocolate lab from a shelter and we had Abbie until she passed in Jan 2011. Last weekend we went to adopt a puppy at a local shelter only to have the people in front of us in line adopt the puppy we wanted. Our dd was heartbroken. I knew of another shelter a town over and we drove to it. We found our Gracie there! She is a rat terrier/chihuahua mix 6 years old. She is so sweet and loving. Already housebroken and fixed. We took her to our vet a few days after adopting and she is in perfect health - she got all her shots at the shelter and was negative for heartworms.

Mickey'snewestfan
03-27-2011, 08:38 PM
I agree that buying a puppy online or in a pet store is a sure way to support puppy mills, and the continued abuse of animals.

No responsible breeder is going to let their puppies be shipped off to total strangers. They're going to want to talk to you, ask you questions, etc . . .

I'd go to the American Kennel Club website and look for breeders of your desired breeds. Call or email around and see who has puppies. Interview them, and let them interview you, and see if you can find a match.

Good luck!

kacaju
03-27-2011, 08:53 PM
http://www.akc.org/breederinfo/breeder_search.cfm

See what you can find through here.
Many, many times a breeder will hold onto a pup because they want to show it. As the pup grows it turns out not to be a show quaility pup. There are many reasons...pup got to big (outgrew the breed standard size) pup just does not like the show ring, the pup has a fault so it cannot be shown
but that does not mean it will not make a great family pet.

ShelsGoingToDisney
03-27-2011, 09:05 PM
Another option for you if you want a specific breed is to see if there is a rescue group for that breed in your area. They are very selective who they will adopt to and they foster the dogs, get them healthy if that is needed, spay/neuter and work on training.

I agree with the others please don't support the puppy mills by buying online!

lukenick1
03-27-2011, 09:21 PM
I was interested in adopting but most shelters have pit bulls, labs, or mixed big dogs. I need a small non shedding dog.

TIGGER'SFRIEND
03-27-2011, 09:28 PM
Just google for rescues of the breed you may be interested in--please consider this route as there are many dogs looking for their forever home--many puppies too:thumbsup2

ktlm
03-27-2011, 09:29 PM
We bought a puppy after finding the breeder's website online. She is now our 8 year old furry child, and is the absolute best dog I have ever had. We knew we wanted a Havanese for temperment, non-shedding, and for being hypoallergenic. I love shelter dogs, but we were hoping to have a baby soon, so we wanted to stick to a breed with known characteristics as far as kids were concerned (yes, I am aware that there are always bad apples in every breed). Back then, Havanese were pretty scarce, they had not gotten as popular as they are now. We got online and found a breeder we thought was in our state. We called her instead of buying online- I would never purchase a puppy without talking to someone. It turns out, she had been in our state, but had recently moved to CA (seems like she had inherited some land there). Normally, I would not have bought a puppy I had not seen and could not go see, but I felt very comfortable with this lady, and everything checked out when I did research on her. We were provided with pictures of the mother, father, and whole litter of puppies. One of our neighbors loved our dog so much that she bought a puppy from the same breeder...again would up being an adorable dog.

You have to be very careful when buying something like a dog online. You definitely want to do some research on the breeder. It can turn out great like it did for us. Our breeder is not a puppy mill or backyard breeder. She is definitely a legitimate business. She breeds 2 breeds only, and they are related breeds. She shows dogs in those breeds as well. We were screened. We had to fill out applications and have a phone interview (I don't think I would trust an online breeder that didn't care where their dog was going). She even wanted updates on how the puppy was and how she turned out as an adult. She also does have some adult rescue dogs (only in her breeds) up for adoption. I believe in this computer day and age that most legitimate breeders do have websites and will operate business in that manner. Of course, there are a lot of puppy mills and scammers out there too...you just have to be careful.

pezheadmeg
03-27-2011, 09:31 PM
I was interested in adopting but most shelters have pit bulls, labs, or mixed big dogs. I need a small non shedding dog.

Find a local rescue. My parents' 17 pound cocka-poo came from the town shelter. She wasn't even a year at the time. My Cocker was a shelter rescue as well. The dogs are there!

cheekymonkey
03-27-2011, 09:43 PM
We did not buy from a puppy mill but from couple who wanted to breed their pair one time. We bought online (per a face book referral) but did get to meet our sweet Lucy before making a final decision. I had searched for many months on petfinder but had not found a good match as we have small kids and old cats.

Good luck with your search! The one piece of advice I can offer is the puppy's disposition/personality is the same at 6 weeks as it will be at 1 year +. So choose the personality that suits your family and lifestyle.

kermit116
03-27-2011, 09:43 PM
If you are looking for a specific breed you can still get that breed and adopt. Visit petfinder.com - which has listings of adoptable dogs in shelters and rescues all over the country. You can search by breed and look for small dogs, which they do have in plenty of shelters and breed specific rescues all over the country. In fact, you may have better luck with Petfinder than you would with just visiting your local shelter if you are looking for a small dog of a specific breed.

Often breed rescues (such as dachshund rescue) will search local kill shelters and scoop up those breeds of dogs before they are killed. The dogs will usually be put in a foster home to get socialized with a family and/or other pets, and then put up for adoption on the breed rescue's website or on Petfinder.com. If you know what breed you want to get, I'd suggest you google that breed's name along with "rescue" - you will likely find many organizations that can help you find the right dog.

I cannot speak strongly enough against buying a dog online. As the previous posters have mentioned, unless you are buying from a reputable breeder (often someone who shows that breed of dog), you are probably buying from a puppymill. To get an idea of where a dog ordered online may be coming from, you may want to visit the videos the Humane Society of the United States has posted of a raid they did on a puppymill in TN (where they rescued 700 dogs - mostly small dogs). (http://video.humanesociety.org/video/629262638001/Channels/729955313001/Puppy-Mills/774991233001/Tennessee-Puppy-Mill-700-Dogs-Rescued-Day-2/).

Many of these dogs live in cages stacked on top of each other, with feces (that are never cleaned) dripping down onto the dogs at the bottom of the stack. At this puppymill in TN, they had dogs living in homemade crates that had chicken wire for flooring (to allow all the animal waste to fall to the ground). When these dogs were rescued, they had cuts on their feet from standing on wire all dog long. Many had their nails ripped off there they had been caught on the chicken wire. These dogs lived in horrendous conditions with little or no human contact, and their puppies were sold online to those who didn't know any better.

A good thing to look for if you are still dedicated to finding a dog from a breeder online is to see if that "breeder" breeds many breeds of dogs or is dedicated to one or two particular breeds. Puppymills are notorious for breeding a variety of dogs - usually they breed small, cute dogs that are easy to sell online and/or are fashionable at the moment (think the run on chihuahuas when the Taco Bell Dog was so popular). Most reputable breeders are dedicated to the advancement of a particular breed. They will dedicate their lives to finding great dogs and breeding them for the purpose of improving that breed, rather than jumping around to breeding different breeds of dogs based on what's popular at the moment. Also, a reputable breeder will be happy to allow you to come visit the dog you want, visit its parents, visit the facility. This will not happen if you buy a dog online from a faceless "breeder."

I apologize if this sounds preachy, but I own three small rescue dogs who lived in absolutely horrendous puppymill conditions prior to being saved and put up for adoption. They are all of the cute variety - very popular breeds, commonly featured on TV and movies, therefore commonly desired by people looking to get a new pet.

There are so many dogs that get put in shelters or rescues every year that are killed that it is easy to find a good dog to adopt. In fact, in this bad economy there are more families having to put perfectly good family dogs (potty trained, good with kids), in shelters because they cannot afford them any longer. This means those who are shopping for a new dog are in a better position to get a shelter/rescue dog. In this way it's a "buyer's market" for shelter/rescue dogs.

Please, please, please reconsider buying a dog online and look at adopting a rescue dog on Petfinder or from a breed rescue. Rescue dogs are so grateful to be rescued by their new families, and it's a great opportunity to give back to the world at large by rescuing a helpless little animal.

DisneyMarathon
03-27-2011, 09:47 PM
Enter the breed and your zip code. It will list dogs and puppies that are available around your area for adoption.

http://www.petfinder.com/index.html

http://www.adoptapet.com/dog-adoption

Many dogs end up at the shelters because their owners can no longer take care of them due to financial situations, etc. There are many excellent dogs ... waiting for you to give them a good home. :thumbsup2

nexttripdisney
03-27-2011, 09:49 PM
Buy locally--have you looked in the classifieds? That's how I found our cockapoo. I was able to drive over to the breeders farm and see that the animals were treated well and it was not a puppy mill.

There are also animals that will meet your requirements (non-shed) in animal shelters all the time.

RachaelA
03-27-2011, 10:27 PM
Buy locally--have you looked in the classifieds? That's how I found our cockapoo. I was able to drive over to the breeders farm and see that the animals were treated well and it was not a puppy mill.

There are also animals that will meet your requirements (non-shed) in animal shelters all the time.

They may not have been a puppymill, but they were backyard breeders. Backyard breeders contribute just as much as puppy mills to the overpopulation of pets in the US.

OP, please adopt. It may take a bit to find the dog you are looking for, but there are so many dogs out there. You can let the small dog rescues or breed specific rescues (like poodle rescues) know what you are looking for and they can let you know when they get a dog that matches.

aprhj
03-27-2011, 10:40 PM
My household has allergy issues so it lead us to a Standard Poodle. Great dogs come from rescues and from the humand society, but when you have allergies to consider you also have to consider that many dogs may have more than 1 bloodline in them and that may trigger allergies. I would only trust breed specific rescue groups in the case of allergies. One thing to be cautious about is the breed mixes. Many will have a different type of coat as a puppy than they do as an adult, even Poodles. If allergies are sever in your household you will only know if a family member is allergic to the dog if you get a dog that has its adult coat. For Standard Poodles that could be anywhere from 9 months to 2 years and they will shed at least once when they go through the coat change.

Debbiebee68
03-27-2011, 10:43 PM
My sister got a Maltipoo from Justmaltipoos. They had to fly him across the country. He is non-shedding and hypoallergenic. They love him more than life!!!

JOEYDIS
03-27-2011, 10:54 PM
We are ready for a family pet. I am interested in a non shedding breed. I see many pups for sale online but I am scared of buying a dog that I cannot interact with. Has anyone bought a dog from a website online and it was successful?
Thanks

I bought both of my Yorkies from puppyfind.com and got fantastics dogs. You must be careful because there are some scams out there even on that site. I spoke with the breeders quite a bit before I agreed on the purchase of the pet. I too wanted a non-shedding dog. I got my dogs from different breeders and had no problems. I did not have my dogs shipped, I met up with both breeders so that they weren't shipped on an airplane. Try to find one near to where you live and then you can drive to pick it up and if something is not right then you will know.

luvmy3
03-27-2011, 10:57 PM
What happens to all those puppies in the pet stores or the ones online that people don't buy?

marie1203
03-27-2011, 11:13 PM
What happens to all those puppies in the pet stores or the ones online that people don't buy?

Hopefully pet stores that sell puppies stop selling them because is not profitable anymore. There is always someone that doesn't have enough information to get them.

marie1203
03-27-2011, 11:15 PM
http://www.akc.org/breederinfo/breeder_search.cfm

See what you can find through here.
Many, many times a breeder will hold onto a pup because they want to show it. As the pup grows it turns out not to be a show quaility pup. There are many reasons...pup got to big (outgrew the breed standard size) pup just does not like the show ring, the pup has a fault so it cannot be shown
but that does not mean it will not make a great family pet.

Please do not let yourself be guided by the AKC. Our only dog that came from a "breeder" (aka puppy mill) has registration. they didn't care or wanted to help as long as they got the money. And yes I went and checked the place out when we got them and everything look fine. They usually breed them somewhere else.

marie1203
03-27-2011, 11:16 PM
I was interested in adopting but most shelters have pit bulls, labs, or mixed big dogs. I need a small non shedding dog.

There is breed specific rescues I am sure you will be able to find at least one poodle rescue per state.

kkacar
03-27-2011, 11:40 PM
Just as another dog other than a poodle for severe allergies look into a chinese crested. we have one and he is the best little dog. Living in Florida they tend to be high maintenance but he is the best dog. And yes before you ask he is that little hairless dog. But he is considered a hairy hairless, he has a little more hair than a complete hairless. He is great for allergies as he has hair not fur.

My Presley is a wonderful little lap dog, bed warmer and he loves to run and play. Just another breed to look into. You can google chinese crested rescue and come up with all kinds of great chinese crested that need homes. we lucked up with ours, he was a rescue dog but he was very young. The family that had him got stationed in Germany and could not keep him. Just my 2 cents.

kelli

robinb
03-28-2011, 12:22 AM
If you are looking for a specific breed you can still get that breed and adopt. Visit petfinder.com - which has listings of adoptable dogs in shelters and rescues all over the country. I just want to point out that Puppy Mills also masquerade on Petfinder as "rescues". We had a big one here in Wisconsin called the Thyme and Sage Ranch: http://www.nowisconsinpuppymills.com/thyme-and-sage-overview.html

You need to be careful no matter where you get your pet.

stasijane
03-28-2011, 01:23 AM
There are many reputable breeders who have websites that are not involved in puppy mills, just make sure you ineract with the breeder and the dog as well, I got my dog off line, we were looking for an English Bull Terrier puppy but I came accrossed a full grown one overpriced from someone trying to make a quick sale on the ebay classifieds and fell in love with her instantly!! Drove two states away to pick her up! and she is the the best dog ever! :lovestruc I dont want to think about how she would have ended up had I not see her.

kacaju
03-28-2011, 05:20 AM
Please do not let yourself be guided by the AKC. Our only dog that came from a "breeder" (aka puppy mill) has registration. they didn't care or wanted to help as long as they got the money. And yes I went and checked the place out when we got them and everything look fine. They usually breed them somewhere else.

well, sorry that happened to you. Bit there are plenty of great breeders out there. Another thing you can do is search infodog.com and find a dog show in your area.
Go to a show is a great way of meeting people who are into their breeds and only want what is best for their dogs.

cbg1027
03-28-2011, 07:25 AM
If you are looking for a specific breed you can still get that breed and adopt. Visit petfinder.com - which has listings of adoptable dogs in shelters and rescues all over the country. You can search by breed and look for small dogs, which they do have in plenty of shelters and breed specific rescues all over the country. In fact, you may have better luck with Petfinder than you would with just visiting your local shelter if you are looking for a small dog of a specific breed.

Often breed rescues (such as dachshund rescue) will search local kill shelters and scoop up those breeds of dogs before they are killed. The dogs will usually be put in a foster home to get socialized with a family and/or other pets, and then put up for adoption on the breed rescue's website or on Petfinder.com. If you know what breed you want to get, I'd suggest you google that breed's name along with "rescue" - you will likely find many organizations that can help you find the right dog.

I cannot speak strongly enough against buying a dog online. As the previous posters have mentioned, unless you are buying from a reputable breeder (often someone who shows that breed of dog), you are probably buying from a puppymill. To get an idea of where a dog ordered online may be coming from, you may want to visit the videos the Humane Society of the United States has posted of a raid they did on a puppymill in TN (where they rescued 700 dogs - mostly small dogs). (http://video.humanesociety.org/video/629262638001/Channels/729955313001/Puppy-Mills/774991233001/Tennessee-Puppy-Mill-700-Dogs-Rescued-Day-2/).

Many of these dogs live in cages stacked on top of each other, with feces (that are never cleaned) dripping down onto the dogs at the bottom of the stack. At this puppymill in TN, they had dogs living in homemade crates that had chicken wire for flooring (to allow all the animal waste to fall to the ground). When these dogs were rescued, they had cuts on their feet from standing on wire all dog long. Many had their nails ripped off there they had been caught on the chicken wire. These dogs lived in horrendous conditions with little or no human contact, and their puppies were sold online to those who didn't know any better.

A good thing to look for if you are still dedicated to finding a dog from a breeder online is to see if that "breeder" breeds many breeds of dogs or is dedicated to one or two particular breeds. Puppymills are notorious for breeding a variety of dogs - usually they breed small, cute dogs that are easy to sell online and/or are fashionable at the moment (think the run on chihuahuas when the Taco Bell Dog was so popular). Most reputable breeders are dedicated to the advancement of a particular breed. They will dedicate their lives to finding great dogs and breeding them for the purpose of improving that breed, rather than jumping around to breeding different breeds of dogs based on what's popular at the moment. Also, a reputable breeder will be happy to allow you to come visit the dog you want, visit its parents, visit the facility. This will not happen if you buy a dog online from a faceless "breeder."

I apologize if this sounds preachy, but I own three small rescue dogs who lived in absolutely horrendous puppymill conditions prior to being saved and put up for adoption. They are all of the cute variety - very popular breeds, commonly featured on TV and movies, therefore commonly desired by people looking to get a new pet.

There are so many dogs that get put in shelters or rescues every year that are killed that it is easy to find a good dog to adopt. In fact, in this bad economy there are more families having to put perfectly good family dogs (potty trained, good with kids), in shelters because they cannot afford them any longer. This means those who are shopping for a new dog are in a better position to get a shelter/rescue dog. In this way it's a "buyer's market" for shelter/rescue dogs.

Please, please, please reconsider buying a dog online and look at adopting a rescue dog on Petfinder or from a breed rescue. Rescue dogs are so grateful to be rescued by their new families, and it's a great opportunity to give back to the world at large by rescuing a helpless little animal.

Thank you Kermit, you saved me a lot of typing. :thumbsup2

I concur with everything Kermit said. But should you decide you need to buy a dog after not being able to find a non-shedding dog to rescue, then be careful where you buy from. I am adding another chapter to what Kermit said with this:

Do not buy a dog that you cannot first meet in person or see the conditions in which it was raised!
Any reputable breeder will most likely be grilling and interviewing you before they agree to sell you a puppy. They care about where the dog is going and what kind of home it will have. A reputable breeder does not sell dogs for a profit, they do it for love of the breed and maintenance of the breed standard. If anything it is a hobby and they are losing money from it! :laughing:

Certain breeds are prone to certain health problems. Do your research about the breeds you are interested in and what sort of genetic diseases are a worry. For example, larger breeds like Labs are prone to hip dysplasia. A good lab breeder will have an OFA (orthopedic foundation for animals) certification grade on the puppies' parents. This means the parents, and their parents were carefully bred to other dogs with no, or very little, hip dysplasia so that each future generation has a smaller chance of developing the problem.

Research is the key word here. Go to dogs shows, talk with breeders and owners. You also need to find out about a breeds usual personality. Just because an dog is small does not mean that is going to be a calm lap dog or have minimal exercise needs. (Terriers are a good example of this - they are hunters in a small body. Thus they are active and stubborn!)

As far as non shedding breeds go, there is no such thing. However there are many who shed very minimally. I would look for the following:

Poodles - come in 3 sizes: Standard, Miniature, and Toy. Anything called a 'Teacup' is probably going to be the product of a puppy mill as it is not an AKC accepted size variety. This goes for any breed that the seller calls 'Teacup'. They will be more prone to health issues since they were just bred for size rather than health and hardiness.

Bichon Frisé

Bedlington Terrier

Chinese Crested

Schnauzer - come in 3 sizes: Giant, Standard and Mini

Portuguese Water Dog - caution these are extremely high energy!

Wire-coat breeds such as the Wirehaired Dachshund or Norwich Terrier (although hounds and terriers can be difficult to train and are usually quite stubborn. They are not usually good breeds for 1st time dog owners.)

Remember that like people, all dogs are different! Research breed characteristics to find the right fit for your family and lifestyle.

And perhaps try going to the local shelter one day and browsing. You never know what you will find. My sister-in-law and nephew have a lot of allergies so they took a long time to find a dog. But a Bichon Frisé mix showed up the shelter one day and he's now a part of their annual family photos. :)

ChattaAlley
03-28-2011, 07:36 AM
I would really think about getting your dog from a shelter. There are some great dogs in shelters that need your love. I would never buy my dog online or from a puppy mill. I have heard too many horrer stories.

robinb
03-28-2011, 07:57 AM
well, sorry that happened to you. Bit there are plenty of great breeders out there. Another thing you can do is search infodog.com and find a dog show in your area.
Go to a show is a great way of meeting people who are into their breeds and only want what is best for their dogs.I have a standard poodle and I found my breeder through my state's breed club.


Poodles - come in 3 sizes: Standard, Miniature, and Toy. Anything called a 'Teacup' is probably going to be the product of a puppy mill as it is not an AKC accepted size variety. This goes for any breed that the seller calls 'Teacup'. They will be more prone to health issues since they were just bred for size rather than health and hardiness.'Royal' poodles and 'Parti' poodles are also more likely than not to be from Puppy Mills. There is no such thing as a 'Royal' poodle. Like a 'Teacup' it's a poodle that has been bread for size ... in the case of a 'Royal' quite large. 'Parti' poodles are bred for their coats of a darker color and white (like a pinto pony). They are very cute, but white is not allowed in the breed standard.

nancycg56
03-28-2011, 08:02 AM
There are lots of pure bred dogs in shelters so if you are looking for a certain breed, I would start at a shelter and go from there. We got our Jack Russell in a shelter and today we pick up his new JRT mix sister.

Read, read, and read some more about the breed to make sure you are getting the right breed for your family. Our JRT is HIGH energy which means we go to the dog park EVERY day and we walk at least a mile every night ~ rain, shine, snow, holiday or not. It makes for a much better JRT. So keep those things in mind!

Good luck on finding your new furbaby!

MomtoGKC
03-28-2011, 08:43 AM
I agree with not going online. Also, I would caution to not go with a poodle mix, like golden doodle. The breeders say they are non- shedding, but there is no way to know that. Just like you don't know which of your/your hsband's traits will come out in your kids, you can have no real way of knowing in the dogs, either. I know of lots of doodles who have inherited the golden fur- and trust me, they are not non-shedding!! :).

There are lots of other reasons to not use these back yard breeders, but I won't go on about it here. If you really need low shedding you should research specific breeds and look at real breeders (referee by your local breed groups) and breed rescue. Also, pure bred breeders should not be chargng $3,000 as a previous poster said. We did a ton of research last year and the average was more like $1,500.

jodifla
03-28-2011, 08:51 AM
I know it's the whole PC thing to do, but I got an older dog from a shelter, and it did NOT work out that well. The dog was older than the said, was abused and quiite nippy with anyone but me, and had a hot of very expensive health problems.

Next time I will get a puppy from a breeder, which I very well will likely find online, then do my research about them.

robinb
03-28-2011, 09:09 AM
If you really need low shedding you should research specific breeds and look at real breeders (referee by your local breed groups) and breed rescue. Also, pure bred breeders should not be chargng $3,000 as a previous poster said. We did a ton of research last year and the average was more like $1,500.It might make a difference where you live. When I bought my poodle 5 years ago $1500 was on the lower end and $3000 on the higher end. I paid just about right in the middle, but my dog's mother and father both had extensive genetics tests done for common inherited problems in poodles.

Hardy
03-28-2011, 09:17 AM
If you are really set on a puppy, and a non-shedding one, you may not have any luck with rescue.....I am a huge believer in rescue over breeder, and 2 of my 4 animals are rescue pets....but when you want something specific for your family, you need to find a good breeder that you are able to drive to. Do NOT buy an animal from an online website, meaning you spend hundreds of dollars sight unseen for a puppy.

I found both of my non-rescue animals online. My siamese that we got for our daughter I found an online ad, contacted the breeder and we met her, the kittens, and the parents twice before picking her up, her shots and worming were up-to-date.

My great dane, was kind of a clearance breeder puppy. Just by chance found an older ad for puppies and contacted her to find out about a new litter in the future, found out that she had two older puppies left over that she was just going to keep/give to family (mom had 14 pups!). So we drove 3 hours to go meet her, our intended puppy and the breeding parents. We ended up taking her home that day (5 months old) and bonus, she was already housebroken! as well as vaccines (except rabies) and de-worming.

So my long story short, you can find your intended dog online, just don't do it in the way you are thinking. Find a breeder who loves their animals and cares more about finding them a good home than making a buck.

Red flags: parents are not on site (or refuse to show), breeder doesn't ask about your home, cannot provide proof dog has had age appropriate de-worming and vaccines, puppy should be 8 weeks MINIMUM before puppy is allowed to go home with you.

rubato
03-28-2011, 09:52 AM
Wow. What a hot topic!

I disagree with a lot of the people on here about online dogs. Not every breeder is a puppy mill. However, if I couldn't go in person at some point and check it out, I wouldn't buy the puppy.

My brother had to have a black English Mastiff. The only breeder he could find was in Tennessee (he lives in Colorado). He had the breeder send him pics of all the puppies they had (6), and my brother picked out his puppy. He then flew to Tennessee to make sure before he agreed to the purchase. Then, at 8 weeks old, he drove there to pick the puppy up.
I think this was crazy, but he's happy.

I found my Welsh Terrier (non-shedding) online, but the breeder was a 4 hour drive. I drove there to make sure that the breeder was okay and that the puppies looked good and healthy. We love our Welshie and couldn't be happier.

As far as shelter dogs go, I understand why everyone wants to support them, but, if you have specific needs in a dog, it's best to get a breed that fits your family. Great if you can find that dog in a shelter. I like the idea of a breed-specific rescue group. There were no Welsh Terriers available when we were looking, but we would have happily gone that route.

And, I agree that you should really do your research on breed types. Every single breed has some negatives. When we started researching, we had the silliest list of things that we needed out of a dog: non-shedding, non-barking, small but not too small, not white (had a white dog in the past, hated how dirty he looked), kid friendly, etc...... What we ended up getting fit all those characteristics, but I pay the price with grooming. Non-shedding dogs usually, but not always, need more grooming. If they don't naturally shed their hair, you get to cut it! In the case of my wire haired terrier, I have to hand strip his hair, but I get the benefit of a dog that doesn't shed, doesn't smell, and dries in about 10 minutes flat.

Good luck in your search. Do what's right for you and your family.

quagmire0
03-28-2011, 10:05 AM
Our first dog came through the F-I-L of a friend who knew a breeder down in Alabama - site unseen. Our second dog came on a whim from a classified add in a local paper. :D Both dogs have been pretty healthy and happy. I agree with many that you should be able to go and visit the dog and see where it was born/raised before buying.

Honestly, I've heard more horror stories about pet stores than breeders these days.

polyforme
03-28-2011, 10:25 AM
We adopted our black lab mix girl from petfinder.com. She was in a foster home down south with forever home rescue. They shipped her to their facility in Medfield, Ma and when I went to pick her up it was love at first sight. Two years later our Boo is really such a special girl and I will never regret getting her site unseen from the many unwanted animals from down south. We still keep in touch with her foster mom who is an amazing lady to foster so many dogs. We send her pictures of Boo and keep her updated on all of Boo's antics-one of them being that she is 83lbs and thinks she is a lap dog!! Forever home rescue just build a brand new shelter in Medfield. I think if you find a dog you like on the web just research where they are coming from- what shelter or rescue organization. Most of them are very legit and work hard to place these unwanted animals.
Reputable breeders do post on the web- in fact one of the best known breeders in Ma has a beautiful website but I do agree that they will want to meet you and wouldn't ship their puppies out!!
good luck!!!

tinkerbell555
03-28-2011, 10:27 AM
I too was looking for a puppy that does not shed much . I have 3 children and one of them has a lot of allergies. I searched online, rescue groups and our local newspapers. Several years ago we rescued a jack russell mix, she was great with the kids but she didn't like men. We also were told she was housebroken and we never could quite get that accomplished even though she was grown. She also had issues about being left alone. All in all the kids enjoyed her, but this time we wanted a puppy. We finally after months of searching found a classified ad in online newspaper an hour away. These people bred their miniature schnauzer . They kept them inside . We are so happy we researched a lot. She has lots of energy to keep up with the kids, also low shedding. She is also pretty calm at work with me all day.She is also healthy.You will find the one for your family. Just keep looking.

Donnainnj
03-28-2011, 10:51 AM
My sister Fosters for a NJ rescue http://wagoninn.rescuegroups.org/ They tend to get a lot of less allergic breeds. Right now they seem to have mostly older dogs available, but they are getting more all the time, so if you keep watching you can get what you want.
Donna

marie1203
03-28-2011, 10:57 AM
Also, pure bred breeders should not be chargng $3,000 as a previous poster said. We did a ton of research last year and the average was more like $1,500.

A good breeder does genetic testing in a dog before breeding. Genetic testing run very expensive and that is why the price will increase so much. To say there there are good breeders is one thing genetic testing like it should be done is another.

mommy2sixpumpkins
03-28-2011, 11:45 AM
I would be careful of purchasing online as you cannot see their temperament and have to strictly go by what the person wants you to hear. It may be accurate, maybe not. My BFF purchased three Shelties online and two of them were great personalities but they both lived too short of a life and had tons of problems. The third she still has. I do not trust that dog. She is skittish, nips, possessive of her food bowl and has bladder issues. This one according to the lady was the best personality and the most loving dog ever. You can't hardly get close to her. Proceed with caution is all I am saying.

I know that I am going against the grain here but I would also be careful of rescues and SPCA's. We have had two really bad experiences with two different breeds of dogs. We also adopted a third one from the SPCA and he ended up costing us mega money and eventually had to be put down, we only had him less than two years. Heart breaking but we tried. I personally would try it again if I didn't have little children. A lot of the dogs have been abused or neglected and they need extra love and attention and with small children, I am not willing to take that chance again.

Pakey
03-28-2011, 12:01 PM
Just as another dog other than a poodle for severe allergies look into a chinese crested. we have one and he is the best little dog. Living in Florida they tend to be high maintenance but he is the best dog. And yes before you ask he is that little hairless dog. But he is considered a hairy hairless, he has a little more hair than a complete hairless. He is great for allergies as he has hair not fur.

My Presley is a wonderful little lap dog, bed warmer and he loves to run and play. Just another breed to look into. You can google chinese crested rescue and come up with all kinds of great chinese crested that need homes. we lucked up with ours, he was a rescue dog but he was very young. The family that had him got stationed in Germany and could not keep him. Just my 2 cents.

kelli

I have 2 Chinese cresteds due to my severe allergies and these are the best dogs. I have a very hairless and a hairy hairless and I'd recommend finding a very hairless. She is so low maintenance. She was a rescue (her owned passed) and she is great.

My little guy came from a "reputable" breeder in a home where the dogs are loved. Yeah, except that the dog has medical issues because genetic testing was not done. I will NEVER EVER EVER buy another dog. It doesn't matter that I have spent thousands on medical treatments (because I love the little guy and he's worth it) but it does matter that these backyard breeders and puppy mills are making money this way.

From now on, I will always own Cresteds but there are plenty out there to rescue.

DisneyMomma81
03-28-2011, 12:12 PM
I was interested in adopting but most shelters have pit bulls, labs, or mixed big dogs. I need a small non shedding dog.

We've had Zac for a few weeks now ~ he was a shelter dog and is a darling cocker spaniel ?mostly? you can never be sure with a shelter dog ~ but he does not shed :thumbsup2 ~ take your time, you might have to stop by a few times *dogs are constantly coming in. We paid $90 for him and $55 of that was good towards getting him neutered ~ we found a clinic that didn't charge us a penny over $55 to fix him ~ he also got a full set of shots from the shelter before he came home with us.

robinb
03-28-2011, 12:58 PM
I have 2 Chinese cresteds due to my severe allergies and these are the best dogs. I have a very hairless and a hairy hairless and I'd recommend finding a very hairless. She is so low maintenance. She was a rescue (her owned passed) and she is great.

My little guy came from a "reputable" breeder in a home where the dogs are loved. Yeah, except that the dog has medical issues because genetic testing was not done. I will NEVER EVER EVER buy another dog. It doesn't matter that I have spent thousands on medical treatments (because I love the little guy and he's worth it) but it does matter that these backyard breeders and puppy mills are making money this way.

From now on, I will always own Cresteds but there are plenty out there to rescue.Those dogs are so ugly they are CUTE!

I guess I am not quite following why you won't purchase from a breeder again. Wouldn't the lesson be to insist on genetic testing instead of adopting a rescue that was probably bred by a puppy mill or backyard breeder?

Deb & Bill
03-28-2011, 01:05 PM
I got my cockapoo from a shelter and my sheltie from a rescue org. My cockapoo was my first dog and my friend who raised wirehaired fox terriers helped me pick her out. She was a gem for nearly 15 years.

My sheltie is my dog. She likes my husband and son, but I am her person. She waits at the door for me during the day and lies on the floor next to me at night.

If you are unsure about shelters and rescues, take someone who knows about dogs with you to help you find out what you need to know.

MEM
03-28-2011, 02:21 PM
To the OP: I also recommend a rescued dog - while many dogs in shelters are pit-bulls, the type of dog you want will likely be in a foster home with a loving family, waiting for a forever home. My first dog (as an adult) was a dachshund that I bought from a breeder - after 17 wonderful years with her, I could not imagine having anything but another dachshund. I tried contacting breeders but they all wanted some sort of "co-ownership" arrangement. I began to despair when a friend at work told me about her neighbor who fosters dogs brought in from the U.S. Virgin Islands. There were 2 dogs available, sisters, of indeterminate parentage - they looked like Chihuahuas on steroids. By the time I was able to meet the dogs, one was spoken for. The other one bonded immediately with my children, especially my son who is on the autism spectrum. She had some medical issues like a form of mange and an infected spaying incision - easily treated. Fast forward four years and she is an absolute dream companion. I try not to think of what a waste it would have been had she been euthanized because she's a "mutt".

Philleigh
03-28-2011, 03:00 PM
OP, please look at rescue groups/shelters first (for all of the reasons by PPs about puppy mills etc.) I don't know where you are, but here in Las Vegas, for example, we have a poodle rescue group. Right now they have a minature 2 year old available. It doesn't necessarily mean there is something wrong with the dog; owners get sick or die, people realize they can't handle the responsibility, and with the economy, a lot of people have had to give up their pets We even have a group in town called Foreclosed Upon Pets, Inc. ("FUPI") and they have a number of small dogs. Rescue group dogs have been fostered so the group can tell you about their personalities. I have a friend who adopted her small malteses from our local SPCA. Rather than trying to buy online, check out Petfinder.com or Google rescue groups for the type of dog(s) you want. Good luck!

luvmy3
03-28-2011, 03:08 PM
Hopefully pet stores that sell puppies stop selling them because is not profitable anymore. There is always someone that doesn't have enough information to get them.

That really doesn't answer the question. Whenever somoene asks about a dog, people always tell them to stay away from pet stores or in this case online, they encourage people to instead adopt. As much as you (general you) would like to see pet stores and online sites stop selling puppies, the fact remains that right now there are pet stores full of dogs, and people backyard breeding and selling online. What I want to know is what happens to all those dogs sitting in those pet stores or online that nobody buys?

Mickey'snewestfan
03-28-2011, 03:59 PM
That really doesn't answer the question. Whenever somoene asks about a dog, people always tell them to stay away from pet stores or in this case online, they encourage people to instead adopt. As much as you (general you) would like to see pet stores and online sites stop selling puppies, the fact remains that right now there are pet stores full of dogs, and people backyard breeding and selling online. What I want to know is what happens to all those dogs sitting in those pet stores or online that nobody buys?

Often they end up in shelters or rescues. Or the petstore lowers the price until it sells them at a loss.

Sometimes bad things happen to them. There's no denying that. However, if you "save" a dog at the petstore, you're likely causing it's mother to continue to live a horrible life, and more siblings to be born into horrible situations. The sad reality is that sometimes you have to prioritize those animals over the one in front of you.

tinkarooni
03-28-2011, 04:10 PM
ALL puppies you buy online, or in a pet store, are from puppymills, or backyard breeders. PLEASE do not support animal cruelty. Either find a rescue, or find a reputable breeder (will never sell to a store, or ship). The breeder's #1 reason for breeding is to improve the breed, not to make money selling puppies. The breeder will not breed dogs that have any medical problems, and will make sure you neuter your puppy, and agree to return the dog if, for whatever reason, you need to surrender it.

Go on petfinder.com - you can find any breed.

I just wanted to comment that I don't think "all" online breeders are cruel to animals. I think that was a bit of a stretch, we found our rare breed dog online and traveled three states away to pick her up. Yes, I don't know if she was what you call a "backyard breeder" but she owned a farm and bred this particular breed of puppy from her two dogs. She was a lovely women with a rare product to sell and used the internet to advertise the puppies.

kacaju
03-28-2011, 04:22 PM
I could not imagine having anything but another dachshund. I tried contacting breeders but they all wanted some sort of "co-ownership" arrangement.

Did you ever really question why the breeder wanted a co ownership with you?? Many, many times it is simply because the breeder cares enough about her puppies that it is one way of them knowing their puppies will be returned to them if for some reason you can no longer keep it.
Yes, there are always horror stories about co ownership (just like there are horror stories about everything)
But don't be so quick to run from a co ownership.

CinRell
03-28-2011, 04:40 PM
That really doesn't answer the question. Whenever somoene asks about a dog, people always tell them to stay away from pet stores or in this case online, they encourage people to instead adopt. As much as you (general you) would like to see pet stores and online sites stop selling puppies, the fact remains that right now there are pet stores full of dogs, and people backyard breeding and selling online. What I want to know is what happens to all those dogs sitting in those pet stores or online that nobody buys?

Rescue groups will take them... or shelters... or they'll be killed. It happens now anyway.... if dogs can't be sold and are clearanced down enough, if the breeder WILL take them back they kill them or just breed them to continue the cycle. I've worked with puppy mill rescues for years. If you chose to go to a breeder and they ship, don't interview YOU, don't make YOU sign a contract saying you MUST return the dog to them if you ever have to get rid of it... run. Fast. Most responsible breeders do not need to be online to advertise because they have homes for the pups before they're even born.

about 30%.. and usually more.. dogs in shelters are pure. Where do you live/ I assure you you can find a rescue to help you find your forever friend!

kacaju
03-28-2011, 04:46 PM
, if the breeder WILL take them back they kill them or just breed them to continue the cycle.

I do not know of any true dog breeder who will kill a pup returned to them. At least the breeders I show with will not. I can't tell you how many times they have gone out of their way to go get a dog that they bred because the former owner could not keep it.

Suz725
03-28-2011, 05:03 PM
I believe I used Puppyfind.com. If not it was a site very similar. Anyway, we bought from someone that was local, 1 hour away. We were able to pick from the litter and got to meet our puppy before bringing him home. We spent a lot of time with the breeder and he sells his puppies to all the local stores by me. Like you, I needed a dog that was non shedding and hypoallergenic. So we needed to purchase and not go through a shelter. The same puppy that we paid $900 for cost $2750 plus tax at the local pet store. I got a guarentee and he paid for the first round of shots. He made sure the puppy was healthy before we lost contact. He kept in touch for a decent amount of time. I would highly recommend.


I used this site not knowing any better and my 1 1/2 year old Newfoundland died of Kidney disease that he was born with...Don't support Puppy Mills!!!! go to a shelter or find a reputable breeder...reputable breeders dont use this website

Aristocath
03-28-2011, 05:11 PM
I'm guessing you are looking for something like a Wheaten? We have allergies and wanted a non shedding dog and I found the Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier. I searched for breeders online, starting with the breed's website. I think when you contact the breeders you will get a feel for what kind of breeder they are and if they are reputable. We ended up buying our Wheaten, Louie, from a breeder I found online that lives a couple of hours from us. We were able to drive up and meet Louie when he was little and came back for him when he was ready to go home with us. The breeder has been an excellent resource for us as we have been training Louie. He is the sweetest boy!

DisneyMarathon
03-28-2011, 05:20 PM
Rescue groups will take them... or shelters... or they'll be killed. It happens now anyway.... if dogs can't be sold and are clearanced down enough, if the breeder WILL take them back they kill them or just breed them to continue the cycle. I've worked with puppy mill rescues for years. If you chose to go to a breeder and they ship, don't interview YOU, don't make YOU sign a contract saying you MUST return the dog to them if you ever have to get rid of it... run. Fast. Most responsible breeders do not need to be online to advertise because they have homes for the pups before they're even born.

about 30%.. and usually more.. dogs in shelters are pure. Where do you live/ I assure you you can find a rescue to help you find your forever friend!

CinRell is right. Also, sometimes the unsold dogs will end up in Dogs Auction where they are sold at very low prices. The lucky ones will go to rescue groups but, sadly, many end up being killed.

Many of the dogs in the pet stores come from Missouri, the capital of Puppy Mills. Last November, there was a law passed to establish better laws in the commercial dog breeding industry. Unfortunately, it was overturned by the legislators because commercial dog breeding is a multi-million dollar industry.:headache:

http://missourifordogs.com/

Happiest mommy
03-28-2011, 05:25 PM
please consider adopting my current puppy is from a shelter he is not ready yet I get her in May:lovestruc I agree with others they have specific breed shelters please don't buy a dog there are so many wonderful dogs up for adoptiopn.

kacaju
03-28-2011, 05:40 PM
please consider adopting my current puppy is from a shelter he is not ready yet I get her in May:lovestruc I agree with others they have specific breed shelters please don't buy a dog there are so many wonderful dogs up for adoptiopn.

You know, I have nothing against getting a shelter dog..in fact I have one.

But it is really annoying to have people say don't buy a dog...adopt.

Buying a dog is not a bad thing..if you can find a reputable breeder. If someone wants a certain breed and wants to buy from a breeder there is nothing wrong with that.

It is good that people do their research and get what they want. You can even find a *rescue* from a breeder. Any reputable breeder will take back a dog they bred at any age..no matter what. They will then rehome the dog themselves.

princessmom29
03-28-2011, 06:22 PM
1. Not all breeders are bad. We got our puppy form a wonderful breeder. We got to come to her farm several times and observe the puppies with their mom and dad, and choose the one we wanted. We got all medical records and they were transferred to our vet. WE got a 1 year health gurantee agianst major health problems. She has kept in contact with us, and we send her pics of our Bella regularly.

2. Not all shelters will adopt to families with children. We could not find any in our area that would allow us to adopt a small breed dog with a then 6 year old child at home. Our family is much more suited to a small breed inside dog so we were SOL.

Deb & Bill
03-28-2011, 06:25 PM
You know, I have nothing against getting a shelter dog..in fact I have one.

But it is really annoying to have people say don't buy a dog...adopt.....

It's just that there are so many homeless animals out there that need a good home. With thousands of dogs and cats being euthanized each month, why would you pay someone to breed you a dog?

Happiest mommy
03-28-2011, 06:36 PM
Deb & Bill :thumbsup2 and if you take your time you will find the type of dog your looking for.

robinb
03-28-2011, 06:52 PM
It's just that there are so many homeless animals out there that need a good home. With thousands of dogs and cats being euthanized each month, why would you pay someone to breed you a dog?The reason why our family bought our dog and both cats from breeders was because we wanted a specific breed, not just a mutt or "American Shorthair". I have fairly bad allergies to both dogs and cats and I wanted a cat with low dander (we ended up with Japanese Bobtails) and a standard poodle. JBT cats are very hard to find (there are only a couple thousand in the US) so I bought mine from a breeder in Canada. Poodles are prone to many, many inherited problems so I didn't want a poorly bred dog. Like I said earlier, my dog's parents were both genetically tested for a variety of things. So far (*knock wood*) my dog is very healthy. And while I admire people who rehabilitate dogs, I also didn't want to deal with an out of control dog or an abused dog :(.

deedeetoo
03-28-2011, 07:32 PM
For those of you that recommend buying from a "reputable breeder", but not a "backyard breeder", what exactly is the difference?

We bought a Lab from a breeder we found in the classifieds. She bred the dogs in her house and had a website (which we discovered later). The mom was her dog (of course), but the dad belonged to another breeder and was not on site. We got to meet all the puppies and picked ours out. He was too young to leave the mom so we had to go back a few weeks later to get him. We got health records, family history going back many generations with lists of awards, and a one year health guarantee. The dog is AKC registered but there was a stipulation on the registration that he not be bred - because of this we only paid $500. He is now 3 and is a great dog and never had a health problem though he is oversized for the breed. So was this a "reputable breeder" or a "backyard breeder"

CinRell
03-28-2011, 07:39 PM
I do not know of any true dog breeder who will kill a pup returned to them. At least the breeders I show with will not. I can't tell you how many times they have gone out of their way to go get a dog that they bred because the former owner could not keep it.

Come on out to Ohio.. IF they will take back their pups... it's not uncommon for the amish (puppy millers) to kill unwanted dogs.. by bullet, withholding food, or drowning. More than not they don't take them back and they end up in shelters, rescues, dumped or euth'd due to genetic flaws.

RachaelA
03-28-2011, 07:42 PM
For those of you that recommend buying from a "reputable breeder", but not a "backyard breeder", what exactly is the difference?

We bought a Lab from a breeder we found in the classifieds. She bred the dogs in her house and had a website (which we discovered later). The mom was her dog (of course), but the dad belonged to another breeder and was not on site. We got to meet all the puppies and picked ours out. He was too young to leave the mom so we had to go back a few weeks later to get him. We got health records, family history going back many generations with lists of awards, and a one year health guarantee. The dog is AKC registered but there was a stipulation on the registration that he not be bred - because of this we only paid $500. He is now 3 and is a great dog and never had a health problem though he is oversized for the breed. So was this a "reputable breeder" or a "backyard breeder"

First off no reputable breeder will ever list their dogs in a newspaper or online website like puppyfind.com Reputable breeders usually have 1 or 2 litters a year and they have waiting lists for all their dogs. Expect to wait to be matched with a dog.

They do extensive health testing (so much that they usually take a loss on a dog rather than make a profit). They are actively involved in dog shows and ONLY breed to better the breed.

Reputable breeders only breed dogs that are champions with titles. Registration doesn't mean anything.

They actively screen every potential owner and usually match you up with a specific dog. You don't just go to their house and pick out a dog.

They never breed unless they have owners for every potential puppy.

Repubtable breeders always sell dogs with spay/neuter contracts and the contracts almost always state that you must return the dog to them if you ever decide not to keep it.

http://www.almosthomerescue.org/breeders/breeders.htm
http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/pdfs/pets/puppy_mills/how_find_good_dog_breeder.pdf

Honestly 95% of breeders out their are backyard breeders or puppy mills.

RachaelA
03-28-2011, 07:43 PM
Come on out to Ohio.. IF they will take back their pups... it's not uncommon for the amish (puppy millers) to kill unwanted dogs.. by bullet, withholding food, or drowning. More than not they don't take them back and they end up in shelters, rescues, dumped or euth'd due to genetic flaws.

Because they are a puppy mill. No reputable breeder would kill a dog.

CinRell
03-28-2011, 07:45 PM
For those of you that recommend buying from a "reputable breeder", but not a "backyard breeder", what exactly is the difference?

We bought a Lab from a breeder we found in the classifieds. She bred the dogs in her house and had a website (which we discovered later). The mom was her dog (of course), but the dad belonged to another breeder and was not on site. We got to meet all the puppies and picked ours out. He was too young to leave the mom so we had to go back a few weeks later to get him. We got health records, family history going back many generations with lists of awards, and a one year health guarantee. The dog is AKC registered but there was a stipulation on the registration that he not be bred - because of this we only paid $500. He is now 3 and is a great dog and never had a health problem though he is oversized for the breed. So was this a "reputable breeder" or a "backyard breeder"

http://thedogliberator.com/index_files/ReputableBreeders.htm

http://www.ehow.com/how_2076895_find-reputable-dog-breeder.html

http://www.marilynsvoice.org/finding_resp_breeder_article.html


And honestly AKC registry doesn't mean you have a dog from a responsible breeder

http://network.bestfriends.org/campaigns/puppymills/news.aspx?pID=6508

CinRell
03-28-2011, 07:46 PM
Because they are a puppy mill. No reputable breeder would kill a dog.

Exactly... but she said she knows of no dog breeder... puppy mills and back yard breeders are, unfortunately, dog breeders.

louey
03-28-2011, 07:50 PM
For those of you that recommend buying from a "reputable breeder", but not a "backyard breeder", what exactly is the difference?

We bought a Lab from a breeder we found in the classifieds. She bred the dogs in her house and had a website (which we discovered later). The mom was her dog (of course), but the dad belonged to another breeder and was not on site. We got to meet all the puppies and picked ours out. He was too young to leave the mom so we had to go back a few weeks later to get him. We got health records, family history going back many generations with lists of awards, and a one year health guarantee. The dog is AKC registered but there was a stipulation on the registration that he not be bred - because of this we only paid $500. He is now 3 and is a great dog and never had a health problem though he is oversized for the breed. So was this a "reputable breeder" or a "backyard breeder"

Honestly it sounds like you lucked out, I do not believe a Reputable Breeder would even have to advertise in the News Paper. I think you lucked out in finding what sounds like a decent backyard breeder?
I Definately believe in rescuing instead of purchasing a dog, but don't fault anyone who wants to buy a dog. What people have to understand is that there are many many many dogs in mills right now suffering and when someone buys a puppy from the internet or pet store you are supporting the Millers!!!! Its that simple :sad2: This is such a hot topic and honestly once people learn about what happens to these dogs they might think differently about rescuing? I wish Oprah would run her show on puppymills one more time before her show ends. It educated alot of people.

ceecee
03-28-2011, 09:06 PM
ALL puppies you buy online, or in a pet store, are from puppymills, or backyard breeders. PLEASE do not support animal cruelty. Either find a rescue, or find a reputable breeder (will never sell to a store, or ship). The breeder's #1 reason for breeding is to improve the breed, not to make money selling puppies. The breeder will not breed dogs that have any medical problems, and will make sure you neuter your puppy, and agree to return the dog if, for whatever reason, you need to surrender it.

Go on petfinder.com - you can find any breed.

GREAT ADVICE! We have two labs from a lab rescue, both adults when adopted and we had no health issues, no potty training and they didn't chew a thing! Rescue organizations will usually foster the dogs waiting on adoption so they know their temperment and work with them on their not so desirable issues!:thumbsup2

cnlmom
03-28-2011, 09:56 PM
I have been a rescuer for years. There ARE all breeds of dogs, both mixed and purebreds available in shelters. The group I am with rescues highly adoptable dogs from municipal animal control death rows when their time is out. I currently am fostering a purebred, with fancy pants AKC papers, 10 month old collie someone decided they did not want anymore. She is gorgeous and well behaved. We also just adopted out two purebred pom puppies, a purebred chi, a purebred german shephard, a pure parsons terrier, a maltise, a dachshund and that is just within the past few weeks that are off the top of my head. Our local shelter just a few days ago had a purebred English bulldog who was 2 years old and had a great temperment. Another had a litter of purebred dachie puppies. We always have in small breed dogs.
Being a purebred does NOT guarantee you will never end up, through no fault of the dog, in a shelter. We have had virtually very breed of purbred in our rescue at one time or another. This is of course in addition to all the wonderful mixes available.

The OP specifically stated they wanted a non-shedder. Let me tell you there is NO SUCH THING. There are dogs that are LOW shedders such as poodles, but NO shedders is a falacy. If a breeder claims NO shedder, they are not being completely honest. Also Hypo-allergenic is a crock as well. Not even sure what the heck that is. Dogs have hair, dogs get dirty....Even low-shedders that are groomed frequently cannot claim hypo-allergenic. Just marketing gimicks. And don't fall for the designer "breeds" of goldendoodles, labadoodles, yorkie poos, puggles....you are paying big bucks for "mutts" Nothing against "mutts" I think they are wonderful, but don't pay tons for a mixed breed with a fancy oodle name.

Someone back a few pages asked what happens to the puppies the petstores and backyard breeders can't sell....well I can tell you, they end up in Municipal animal controls shelters discarded when they are no longer valuable to the store or breeder. The lucky ones get adopted or placed into rescue. the unlucky ones don't make it out alive.

as others pointed out, check out Petfinder.com There are breed specific groups out there. Not all rescues are equal though, I will be honest about this. At the risk of alienating myself against other rescuers...Some make you jump through all sorts of hoops to adopt, others don't screen enough. There are many great groups that are right in the middle. You should be expected to fill out an application asking about your lifestyle and what you are looking for in a pet. This should include a vet reference. That helps me decide if the dog I am fostering is a good match both for you and the dog. I want my fosterpets to go into great homes that are prepared for them and I want my adoptive families to have a great experience. Some animals require a fenced in yard, some don't; some love kids, some don't; some are active, some couch potatos. Look for a group that fosters....that means the animals live in private homes awaiting adoption.....I can tell you all sorts of things with the animals I foster...quirks in personalites, housebroken, good on leash etc...and I also work with them to make them more adoptable if they have issues.

Most rescue group will also have the animal FULLY vetted including spay/neuter, heartworm tests, vaccines etc prior to adoption. If there are medical issues that are known, they should be very clear in their contracts. Some areas do not have access to juvenile spay/neuter, however most do. You should get copies of all vet work completed at adopton. My rescue group spay/neuters at 8 weeks and NEVER adopts out any animal that is not fixed. And BTW...we have been doing Juvenile spay/neuter for years and have never had a problem...in fact the puppies and kittens seem to do much better than the adults with their recovery.

marie1203
03-28-2011, 10:12 PM
For those of you that recommend buying from a "reputable breeder", but not a "backyard breeder", what exactly is the difference?

We bought a Lab from a breeder we found in the classifieds. She bred the dogs in her house and had a website (which we discovered later). The mom was her dog (of course), but the dad belonged to another breeder and was not on site. We got to meet all the puppies and picked ours out. He was too young to leave the mom so we had to go back a few weeks later to get him. We got health records, family history going back many generations with lists of awards, and a one year health guarantee. The dog is AKC registered but there was a stipulation on the registration that he not be bred - because of this we only paid $500. He is now 3 and is a great dog and never had a health problem though he is oversized for the breed. So was this a "reputable breeder" or a "backyard breeder"


This is a typical backyard breeder. The ACK means nothing as they don't really do much or control anything. The dog is only 3 year old so I wouldn't be surprised if problems come later on. My friend had the same thing happen now her Lab is 4 years old her dog developed very bad allergies, and had to have knee surgery.

FredinFL
03-28-2011, 10:25 PM
Oh honey, don't do it. You never know what you are really going to get. Most reputable breeders would never sell like that. Good breeders want to me YOU as much as you want to meet the puppy. The things that go on with these online breeders would make you cry. They are virtual puppy mills where the mom's are constantly pregnant and then just outright killed (if they are lucky) when they can't breed anymore or don't die breeding. The puppies are inbred and rife with illnesses and degenerative diseases.

Please, don't use an online breeder. Save your family the heartbreak.

deedeetoo
03-28-2011, 10:43 PM
I am still confused by the concept of a "reputable breeder" and exactly what is is supposed to be. Again, I have to ask, what is the difference between a "reputable breeder" and a "backyard breeder"?

As far as I can tell, from what everyone has written, is that a reputable breeder is one that doesn't advertise anywhere so you can't find them. They don't advertise on the internet and they don't advertise in the newspaper and you can't even trust the AKC site. If you actually have found a breeder then it can't possibly be a reputable breeder and it must be a backyard breeder or a puppy mill.

Do these mystery reputable breeders actually exist and how is someone who is not in the know supposed to find them? What questions would you ask a breeder to determine if they are a reputable breeder or a backyard breeder?

ktlm
03-28-2011, 10:49 PM
The OP specifically stated they wanted a non-shedder. Let me tell you there is NO SUCH THING. There are dogs that are LOW shedders such as poodles, but NO shedders is a falacy. If a breeder claims NO shedder, they are not being completely honest. Also Hypo-allergenic is a crock as well. Not even sure what the heck that is. Dogs have hair, dogs get dirty....Even low-shedders that are groomed .

Not true. Some breeds do not shed. Our Havanese does not shed. She is 8 and we have surprisingly never found a dog hair on any piece of furniture in the house during that time. I shed more than the dog does. The only way her hair comes out is when you brush it.

Hypo-allergenic is not competely true. Non shedders do not aggravate people with allergies that much, so they use that term to describe them, but it is not entirely accurate. The reason that non shedders are best for people with allergies is that the dander and allergens stay trapped inside the coat instead of floating around in the air with the shedding. If they are house dogs and outside a minimum amount and if you bath them at least fairly regularly at least during allergy season, people with allergies in the house should not be affected by the dog. Now in allergy season, if the dog comes in from outside and you stick your nose or face in its fur, you are still going to sneeze. It isn't the dog or even its dander, it is what they bring inside with them on their fur.

robinb
03-28-2011, 11:31 PM
Not true. Some breeds do not shed. Our Havanese does not shed. She is 8 and we have surprisingly never found a dog hair on any piece of furniture in the house during that time. I shed more than the dog does. The only way her hair comes out is when you brush it.ITA. My standard Poodle DOES NOT SHED. Not one single hair unless I brush her out and then it's the same hair as in your own brush. She is laying right next to me right now and I just tried to pick out some hair from her coat and nothing came out.

We owned a Japanese Akita for 14 years prior to my poodle and I was miserable the whole time we had her. As she aged, her hair and dander got a lot worse ... it was so bad I had to wash my hands every time I touched her. My poodle is, for me, very hypoallergenic. Does that mean that ALL allergic people can have a poodle? Nope. But my poodle works for me.

JB2K
03-29-2011, 08:14 AM
Exactly... but she said she knows of no dog breeder... puppy mills and back yard breeders are, unfortunately, dog breeders.

@CinRell -- why are you running an advert for an appliance store in your message...isn't that against this board's TOS?

Mods?

RachaelA
03-29-2011, 08:39 AM
I am still confused by the concept of a "reputable breeder" and exactly what is is supposed to be. Again, I have to ask, what is the difference between a "reputable breeder" and a "backyard breeder"?

As far as I can tell, from what everyone has written, is that a reputable breeder is one that doesn't advertise anywhere so you can't find them. They don't advertise on the internet and they don't advertise in the newspaper and you can't even trust the AKC site. If you actually have found a breeder then it can't possibly be a reputable breeder and it must be a backyard breeder or a puppy mill.

Do these mystery reputable breeders actually exist and how is someone who is not in the know supposed to find them? What questions would you ask a breeder to determine if they are a reputable breeder or a backyard breeder?

Did you look at any of the links that I posted or that CinRell posted?

I listed way more reasons then they don't advertise in classifieds.

First off no reputable breeder will ever list their dogs in a newspaper or online website like puppyfind.com Reputable breeders usually have 1 or 2 litters a year and they have waiting lists for all their dogs. Expect to wait to be matched with a dog.

They do extensive health testing (so much that they usually take a loss on a dog rather than make a profit). They are actively involved in dog shows and ONLY breed to better the breed.

Reputable breeders only breed dogs that are champions with titles. Registration doesn't mean anything.

They actively screen every potential owner and usually match you up with a specific dog. You don't just go to their house and pick out a dog.

They never breed unless they have owners for every potential puppy.

Repubtable breeders always sell dogs with spay/neuter contracts and the contracts almost always state that you must return the dog to them if you ever decide not to keep it.

http://www.almosthomerescue.org/breeders/breeders.htm
http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/...og_breeder.pdf

Those links have questions that you should ask potential breeders.

princessmom29
03-29-2011, 09:43 AM
Did you look at any of the links that I posted or that CinRell posted?

I listed way more reasons then they don't advertise in classifieds.

First off no reputable breeder will ever list their dogs in a newspaper or online website like puppyfind.com Reputable breeders usually have 1 or 2 litters a year and they have waiting lists for all their dogs. Expect to wait to be matched with a dog.

They do extensive health testing (so much that they usually take a loss on a dog rather than make a profit). They are actively involved in dog shows and ONLY breed to better the breed.

Reputable breeders only breed dogs that are champions with titles. Registration doesn't mean anything.

They actively screen every potential owner and usually match you up with a specific dog. You don't just go to their house and pick out a dog.

They never breed unless they have owners for every potential puppy.

Repubtable breeders always sell dogs with spay/neuter contracts and the contracts almost always state that you must return the dog to them if you ever decide not to keep it.

http://www.almosthomerescue.org/breeders/breeders.htm
http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/...og_breeder.pdf

Those links have questions that you should ask potential breeders.
Soryy, but I have to say it. I don't agree with this. I have seen it before and it is really just propoganda thagt attempts to make people feel it is impossible to get a dog from a "reputable breeder" so they should just adopt. Not every good breeder always has a waitlist for thier puppies, and you do not have to wait a long period of time to get a puppy that is healthy. A breeder CAN have more than a couple of litters a year and still sell healthly puppies, if the goal is not to make every puppy a show champ, but to provide good pets for families. A dog does NOT have to have a champion pedigree to be healthy, in fact I wouldrather have a dog with a more diverse pedigree than one bred to have one specific "champion look". Inbreeding in a BAD thing, and and when you continue breeding "champion bloodline" with "champion bloodline" that is what you are getting unless you are really gonig out of your way to import dogs from other areas on a regular basis. Sorry, but this kind of thing really bothers me and this is the second time it has been posted.

tlbwriter
03-29-2011, 09:46 AM
As far as I can tell, from what everyone has written, is that a reputable breeder is one that doesn't advertise anywhere so you can't find them. They don't advertise on the internet and they don't advertise in the newspaper and you can't even trust the AKC site. If you actually have found a breeder then it can't possibly be a reputable breeder and it must be a backyard breeder or a puppy mill.

Do these mystery reputable breeders actually exist and how is someone who is not in the know supposed to find them? What questions would you ask a breeder to determine if they are a reputable breeder or a backyard breeder?

:lmao: It does sound that way, doesn't it?

When we were looking for a "reputable breeder," I contacted the breed's national organization (or maybe it was the AKC? don't remember) and asked for recommendations. They gave me some names and phone numbers. A few of these breeders did have websites. The closest one (in a neighboring state) had a website about her dogs - the dogs she breeds are champions and she talked a lot about them and showed photos of them at various shows. She had more than one male. I think she had one litter a year. Her website didn't mention available dogs at all. She had me fill out an extensive questionnaire before she'd answer questions about available dogs or even hint at prices. I guess we passed that round, because after she received the answers, she said she had one adult dog to sell, and one puppy who might be for sale, she wanted to wait a few more months and see if that one would be show-worthy (in which case she would keep it).

When we researched "other" breeders on the internet, we found several who talked about the parent dogs but made no mention of winning championships or even being shown at all (they were registered). They had multiple litters per year, sometimes more than one male but usually one male and multiple females. They showed photos of available puppies and accepted deposits through Paypal. They had nice, clean kennels (assuming the photos were accurate) and emphasized that the dogs were well socialized, but it was obvious that the dogs were being bred as pets, and that they had no intention of keeping any of the puppies. They had photos of dogs with the families who bought them, and some paperwork (contracts, etc.) online.That's one level of backyard breeder.

We also met a couple in our home town who owned a male and female - one was registered, one was "eligible to be registered" but was not. They had one or two litters per year and advertised them in the local newspaper. That's another level of backyard breeder.

deedeetoo
03-29-2011, 09:46 AM
First off no reputable breeder will ever list their dogs in a newspaper or online website like puppyfind.com Reputable breeders usually have 1 or 2 litters a year and they have waiting lists for all their dogs. Expect to wait to be matched with a dog.

They do extensive health testing (so much that they usually take a loss on a dog rather than make a profit). They are actively involved in dog shows and ONLY breed to better the breed.

Reputable breeders only breed dogs that are champions with titles. Registration doesn't mean anything.

They actively screen every potential owner and usually match you up with a specific dog. You don't just go to their house and pick out a dog.

They never breed unless they have owners for every potential puppy.


So it sounds like "reputable breeders" are where to go if you want the offspring of a show dog and are willing to wait for it. It also doesn't sound like "reputable breeders" actually breed enough dogs to supply every family that just wants to have a pet. If this was the only way to get dogs then most people wouldn't be able to have family pets because they couldn't afford them or would have to wait years on a waiting list. Or maybe they wouldn't be lucky enough to be matched with a puppy or deemed good enough to have a dog.

Reputable according to whom? To me, reputable means someone who honors their commitments and doesn't cheat you, and treats their dogs and their puppies well. I don't care if mom is a champion. I do think its important that the parents not have health issues but I don't see why you assume that only "reputable breeders" do this. I had health reports on both parents of my dog from my "backyard breeder".

"Reputable breeders" cannot fill the total demand for dogs so others have stepped it to do it. While I'm sure that no one wants puppy mills to remain in business, I do think there needs to be some way for people to get dogs without getting on a waiting list for the offspring of a champion show dog.

I also don't get why people are convinced a dog from a backyard breeder will have health problems, but one from a shelter will be fine. You know nothing about the background of a shelter dog. The only thing you know is that it isn't sick right now (and I've heard that many times that isn't even true). I've asked around among friends and coworkers. No one has a dog from a pet store, some have gone to shelters, most have them from backyard breeders. No one has gone to "reputable breeders" as described here.

marie1203
03-29-2011, 09:49 AM
Soryy, but I have to say it. I don't agree with this. I have seen it before and it is really just propoganda thagt attempts to make people feel it is impossible to get a dog from a "reputable breeder" so they should just adopt. Not every good breeder always has a waitlist for thier puppies, and you do not have to wait a long period of time to get a puppy that is healthy. A breeder CAN have more than a couple of litters a year and still sell healthly puppies, if the goal is not to make every puppy a show champ, but to provide good pets for families. A dog does NOT have to have a champion pedigree to be healthy, in fact I wouldrather have a dog with a more diverse pedigree than one bred to have one specific "champion look". Inbreeding in a BAD thing, and and when you continue breeding "champion bloodline" with "champion bloodline" that is what you are getting unless you are really gonig out of your way to import dogs from other areas on a regular basis. Sorry, but this kind of thing really bothers me and this is the second time it has been posted.


It is not healthy for dogs too have to many litters a year. So a good breeder will avoid that . Of course a good breeder will import their dogs and wouldn't not inbreed if they do this they are not a good breeder.

princessmom29
03-29-2011, 09:49 AM
I am still confused by the concept of a "reputable breeder" and exactly what is is supposed to be. Again, I have to ask, what is the difference between a "reputable breeder" and a "backyard breeder"?

As far as I can tell, from what everyone has written, is that a reputable breeder is one that doesn't advertise anywhere so you can't find them. They don't advertise on the internet and they don't advertise in the newspaper and you can't even trust the AKC site. If you actually have found a breeder then it can't possibly be a reputable breeder and it must be a backyard breeder or a puppy mill.

Do these mystery reputable breeders actually exist and how is someone who is not in the know supposed to find them? What questions would you ask a breeder to determine if they are a reputable breeder or a backyard breeder?
see what I posted above. What I looked for in getting our dog was a breeder whose dogs were family, and treated as such. I also looked for someone who had a reputation for producing healthy dogs, and who was importing new dogs from different ares to see to it that the gene pool remained diverse enough. I wasn't looking for a show champ, just a healthy, well adjusted family dog. I don't think all "backyard breeders" are bad things. I want a dog that has been treated as a member of the family and well socialized form birth. You need a small operation to do that. I don't think all breeders who advertise are necessairly bad.

marie1203
03-29-2011, 10:08 AM
I also don't get why people are convinced a dog from a backyard breeder will have health problems, but one from a shelter will be fine. You know nothing about the background of a shelter dog. The only thing you know is that it isn't sick right now (and I've heard that many times that isn't even true). I've asked around among friends and coworkers. No one has a dog from a pet store, some have gone to shelters, most have them from backyard breeders. No one has gone to "reputable breeders" as described here.


There biggest problem with backyard breeders is they do it for a profit. With the high percentage of pets being put down there is obviously more supply than demand and more irresponsible people. Who will breed a dog if they know they will end up in the pound? Which is a lot of cases with pitbulls and labs. A responsible breeder will take the time to make sure the house is right, the people are responsible, etc. Not just take the money sign a contract and you are out they door with one of their puppies.
Backyard breeders do not take measures to improve the breed. Therefore creating more problem with the breed take dalmatians for example how we humans have damage the breed from breeding incorrectly. I think as humans it is our responsibility to protect animals and to preserve the breeds as best as we can. Why a shelter dog might be healthier than a pure breed dog is because mutts have less chance of inbreeding and passing genetics disorders that go with the breed. Just because it is a shelter dog doesn't mean it will be healthy we have 5 and we rescue the ones that are on the worst state. I can tell you no shelter or other rescue we have done will compare to the medical issues and state of a puppy mill puppy. The point is that when you go to the shelter you have an idea that it might be the case that the dog might develop or get sick sometime, but it is infuriating when you buy from a "good" breeder and your dog ends up having all kinds of genetic problem. In fact I was at the vet last friday and next to me was a guy with 2 standard poodles that were breed wrong and now how very bad problems that he had to be at the vet every week. He took all the steps trying to find a good breeder and still what he got.
I should have also point out that bad breeding can cause behavioral problems too which will make the dog more likely to end up in the pound.

MomtoGKC
03-29-2011, 10:08 AM
I think what Rachael posted about signs of a good breeder are great. The best thing for you to do if you want to go with a pure bred dog is to do tons of research on the different low shedding breeds. Then maybe go to a dog show to meet some of those to help you narrow your choice down to one or two. If that's not possible just do the best you can to narrow your choice down through research.

Once you pick a breed go to the breed website. Not the AKC website. Each breed has a national organization - for example, we wanted a Golden retriever so I first went to the Golden Retriever Club of America website - I think all breeds should have a similar page. From there I found my local Golden Retriever Club. I went to their page and contacted the puppy referral people - most breeds will have that as well. If not just contact anyone you can find in that organization. They can tell you about local reputable breeders.

The way it worked for us was that we were narrowing down between labs & goldens. We went to a dog show and were 99% sure on the golden. We met some of the people with the goldens at the show and got some breeder names. Then I e-mailed the golden club people and asked if those people were good/ethical breeders or not. I got great responses (sometimes they are not so fast though, they are all volunteer) and was lucky to find a breeder with a litter coming pretty soon.

Many breeds also have their own forums. I belong to one that is just like the Dis but all for goldens. See if the breeds you like have one of these - those people usually really know what they are talking about and are dedicated to the breed and can help point you int he right direction. Our forum has a whole section just about Finding the Right Breeder and people post where they are from and get tons of advice.

Don't search on any classifieds, but don't freak out if you get a referral and that breeder has a website. Many of the top breeders have websites, they just don't advertise them as much and would never list their dogs online or in newspapers. Just don't go google Golden retriever Florida or something like that - then you never know what website will pop up.

If you take your time and do some legwork (I researched for months before we finally even got to the finding a breeder step) you will find what you are looking for whether it is a pure bred, rescue, puppy or adult.

MomtoGKC
03-29-2011, 10:12 AM
Oh, and don't trust breeders who say the parents are healthy and their puppies have been to the vet and have been declared healthy. That is NOT enough. Each breed has different ailments that may affect them - the parents need to have gone through many tests with actual certificates proving they are healthy before you should buy from them. Goldens tend to have problems with hips, elbows, eyes and a few other things. Our breeder had to have each of those things tested on the parents (and for many generations back usually) and be able to show us the certificates from each test.

You'll have to check the breed you chose to see which tests you'll need to see, but that should be listed somewhere on the breed website.

MomtoGKC
03-29-2011, 10:17 AM
A good breeder does genetic testing in a dog before breeding. Genetic testing run very expensive and that is why the price will increase so much. To say there there are good breeders is one thing genetic testing like it should be done is another.


You are right, I should have said in Florida Golden retrievers average $1500 with all of the genetic tests included. My breeder (who does all of the tests and gives us copies of all of the certificates) said that up north Goldens can go for closer to $2,000.

I just get worried when I see prices higher than that unless it is a rare breed. A lot of breeders are now trying to jump on the "cream/white colored" golden hype and are charging outrageous prices of $3-4,000 for poorly bred light colored goldens. Same as the teacup, giant, doodle types - they are not bred correctly but because people think they are cool they can charge double what a well bred dog goes for.

momonlongisland
03-29-2011, 10:29 AM
Great thread to OP!!!! Going through the same thing right now... SOOO....does anyoneee out there know of any Westie or Cairn breeders in the LI/NY/Tri State area??? TIA!

MomtoGKC
03-29-2011, 10:36 AM
Great thread to OP!!!! Going through the same thing right now... SOOO....does anyoneee out there know of any Westie or Cairn breeders in the LI/NY/Tri State area??? TIA!


Sorry I don't, but here are links to their Club breeder referral pages. I didn't look at the Westie one too long, but I did notice the Cairn one had a page about health concerns, so that should help you to know what types of tests the breeders should run. I love Cairns - they are adorable!!



http://www.westieclubamerica.com/regclubs/index.html (http://www.westieclubamerica.com/regclubs/index.html)

http://members.ctca.us/home.php/breeder-referral

RachaelA
03-29-2011, 11:00 AM
So it sounds like "reputable breeders" are where to go if you want the offspring of a show dog and are willing to wait for it. It also doesn't sound like "reputable breeders" actually breed enough dogs to supply every family that just wants to have a pet. If this was the only way to get dogs then most people wouldn't be able to have family pets because they couldn't afford them or would have to wait years on a waiting list. Or maybe they wouldn't be lucky enough to be matched with a puppy or deemed good enough to have a dog.

Reputable according to whom? To me, reputable means someone who honors their commitments and doesn't cheat you, and treats their dogs and their puppies well. I don't care if mom is a champion. I do think its important that the parents not have health issues but I don't see why you assume that only "reputable breeders" do this. I had health reports on both parents of my dog from my "backyard breeder".

"Reputable breeders" cannot fill the total demand for dogs so others have stepped it to do it. While I'm sure that no one wants puppy mills to remain in business, I do think there needs to be some way for people to get dogs without getting on a waiting list for the offspring of a champion show dog.

I also don't get why people are convinced a dog from a backyard breeder will have health problems, but one from a shelter will be fine. You know nothing about the background of a shelter dog. The only thing you know is that it isn't sick right now (and I've heard that many times that isn't even true). I've asked around among friends and coworkers. No one has a dog from a pet store, some have gone to shelters, most have them from backyard breeders. No one has gone to "reputable breeders" as described here.

Yes reputable breeders cannot keep up with the demand for dogs. I would have less of a problem with backyard breeders if dogs weren't being killed EVERY SINGLE DAY in shelters throughout the country. If the shelters and rescue groups were empty then I would have less of a problem with backyard breeders.

But the issue is backyard breeders are not breeding to better the breed. They are no breeding show quality dogs. The health guarantee from them is no where near the equivalent of a puppy whose parents were show champions and are prime examples of the breed.

Yeah a dog you get from the shelter or a rescue group may have problems, but you aren't paying thousands of dollars for it like you are if you get it from a backyard breeder.

I just think its really horrible for someone to go pay thousands of dollars for a dog from a not reputable breeder all because they don't want to take the time for an almost identical dog to show up at a shelter or rescue group. (This comment isn't directly at anyone in particular!!)

janey99
03-29-2011, 11:23 AM
Soryy, but I have to say it. I don't agree with this. I have seen it before and it is really just propoganda thagt attempts to make people feel it is impossible to get a dog from a "reputable breeder" so they should just adopt. Not every good breeder always has a waitlist for thier puppies, and you do not have to wait a long period of time to get a puppy that is healthy. A breeder CAN have more than a couple of litters a year and still sell healthly puppies, if the goal is not to make every puppy a show champ, but to provide good pets for families. A dog does NOT have to have a champion pedigree to be healthy, in fact I wouldrather have a dog with a more diverse pedigree than one bred to have one specific "champion look". Inbreeding in a BAD thing, and and when you continue breeding "champion bloodline" with "champion bloodline" that is what you are getting unless you are really gonig out of your way to import dogs from other areas on a regular basis. Sorry, but this kind of thing really bothers me and this is the second time it has been posted.

I think the poster that posted this info is trying to make the point that "reputable breeders" DO only breed to create breed standard quality dogs to improve the breed - making puppies is not an industry to them in order to create nice puppies for families to buy. (and I do agree with her points) Reputable breeders scour the world (literally) in order to find foundation stock for their kennels that reflects as close to perfect physical conformation and health that they can achieve. They then extensively health test those dogs again (even though the parents may have been tested) to confirm the health and lack of congenital problems in their dogs to the largest extent possible. They then get into the show circuit to achieve championships for their dogs, which are external confirmations from that breed's community that the dogs are superior examples of thier breed. They may also do agility, obedience or other activities to similarly prove their dogs' temperament, physicality or intelligence. They then scour the earth again to find suitable mates for their breeding stock, whose characteristics will either help cement good qualities into their dogs' offspring or work to overcome undesirable characteristics if there are any. THEN because breeding is not an exact science, some puppies will perfectly embody all the things the breeder was trying to achieve, and will be show prospects that attract the attention of other breeders OR there will be puppies who are most likely extremely healthy physical specimens, because of all the vetting that went into their breeding, but may have visual faults that make them undesirable for further breeding - THOSE are the puppies that breeders will consider placing in a pet home. This kind of back story does not "confirm" a perfectly healthy puppy, but it sure helps.

It IS hard to find these people - they are not puppy sellers. They invest a great deal of time and money into something that is their passion. One or two litters a year is all they have time for because it takes a great deal of commitment to do all the other things that their pursuit requires.

I don't know where you get the idea that these people are "inbreeding?" What they are doing is very extensively and carefully cross breeding. You state "unless you are going out of your way to bring in dogs from other areas" like that is the exception, but it is the rule for "reputable breeders."

One of my dogs, who is a pet quality boxer (plain fawn rather than flashy, and has a mismark swirl of fur on her shoulder) from a "reputable breeder" has a mother who has been imported from England and is now an American champion. Mom's parentage is English and Irish champions. Her father is a Canadian champion who also competes in agility and obedience trials. His parentage includes a dad who was the top boxer in Canada for a number of years. These dogs were selected to be bred after much research and discussion among their owners. It involved shipping frozen <ahem> from Canada to the US so an artificial insemination could be performed. Other dogs in her kennel are imported from Ireland and Canada. These breeders are not breeding the same pair of father/daughter dogs over and over again, nor are they breeding their "nice female lab" with "nice neighbor male lab" from down the street, because wouldn't they make cute puppies.

As I mentioned, breeding is not an exact science, and any number of mishaps can occur, but if I am going to invest a great deal of money and acquire a family member who will integrate into our family and remain there for over a decade, I'll stack the odds in my favor every time by working to find a "reputable breeder" - I don't think the concept is propaganda!

Jane

princessmom29
03-29-2011, 11:32 AM
Yes reputable breeders cannot keep up with the demand for dogs. I would have less of a problem with backyard breeders if dogs weren't being killed EVERY SINGLE DAY in shelters throughout the country. If the shelters and rescue groups were empty then I would have less of a problem with backyard breeders.

But the issue is backyard breeders are not breeding to better the breed. They are no breeding show quality dogs. The health guarantee from them is no where near the equivalent of a puppy whose parents were show champions and are prime examples of the breed.

Yeah a dog you get from the shelter or a rescue group may have problems, but you aren't paying thousands of dollars for it like you are if you get it from a backyard breeder.

I just think its really horrible for someone to go pay thousands of dollars for a dog from a not reputable breeder all because they don't want to take the time for an almost identical dog to show up at a shelter or rescue group. (This comment isn't directly at anyone in particular!!)
What about those who cannot get a shelter to give them a dog? No shelter would give us a small breed dog bcause we had a child in the home. As soon as they heard I had a 6 year old, they didn't want to hear any more. Nothing else mattered. It didn't make a difference how prepared we were, what our home or yard situation looked like. We didn't pay thousands for our dog. We got her from a breeder who bred her doga in her home becuase she loved being able to provide loving pets to families, not to make a huge profit. She didn't have lots of puppies all the time. Typically one litter at a time. What we paid her would have barely covered the dog's puppy visits, bloodwork, and shots up to that point. We know what was done b/c her vet transferred the records to ours. She just loves the dogs. No, she didn't do fancy genetic testing, but she did only breed dogs she know to be healthy and whose parents and gradparents were healthy. I don't see that as irresponsible, but as doing everything thati s reasonably possible to insure you are producing a quality pet that a family can actually afford. Not everyone can afford to pay thousands for a dog.

princessmom29
03-29-2011, 11:57 AM
I think the poster that posted this info is trying to make the point that "reputable breeders" DO only breed to create breed standard quality dogs to improve the breed - making puppies is not an industry to them in order to create nice puppies for families to buy. (and I do agree with her points) Reputable breeders scour the world (literally) in order to find foundation stock for their kennels that reflects as close to perfect physical conformation and health that they can achieve. They then extensively health test those dogs again (even though the parents may have been tested) to confirm the health and lack of congenital problems in their dogs to the largest extent possible. They then get into the show circuit to achieve championships for their dogs, which are external confirmations from that breed's community that the dogs are superior examples of thier breed. They may also do agility, obedience or other activities to similarly prove their dogs' temperament, physicality or intelligence. They then scour the earth again to find suitable mates for their breeding stock, whose characteristics will either help cement good qualities into their dogs' offspring or work to overcome undesirable characteristics if there are any. THEN because breeding is not an exact science, some puppies will perfectly embody all the things the breeder was trying to achieve, and will be show prospects that attract the attention of other breeders OR there will be puppies who are most likely extremely healthy physical specimens, because of all the vetting that went into their breeding, but may have visual faults that make them undesirable for further breeding - THOSE are the puppies that breeders will consider placing in a pet home. This kind of back story does not "confirm" a perfectly healthy puppy, but it sure helps.

It IS hard to find these people - they are not puppy sellers. They invest a great deal of time and money into something that is their passion. One or two litters a year is all they have time for because it takes a great deal of commitment to do all the other things that their pursuit requires.

I don't know where you get the idea that these people are "inbreeding?" What they are doing is very extensively and carefully cross breeding. You state "unless you are going out of your way to bring in dogs from other areas" like that is the exception, but it is the rule for "reputable breeders."

One of my dogs, who is a pet quality boxer (plain fawn rather than flashy, and has a mismark swirl of fur on her shoulder) from a "reputable breeder" has a mother who has been imported from England and is now an American champion. Mom's parentage is English and Irish champions. Her father is a Canadian champion who also competes in agility and obedience trials. His parentage includes a dad who was the top boxer in Canada for a number of years. These dogs were selected to be bred after much research and discussion among their owners. It involved shipping frozen <ahem> from Canada to the US so an artificial insemination could be performed. Other dogs in her kennel are imported from Ireland and Canada. These breeders are not breeding the same pair of father/daughter dogs over and over again, nor are they breeding their "nice female lab" with "nice neighbor male lab" from down the street, because wouldn't they make cute puppies.

As I mentioned, breeding is not an exact science, and any number of mishaps can occur, but if I am going to invest a great deal of money and acquire a family member who will integrate into our family and remain there for over a decade, I'll stack the odds in my favor every time by working to find a "reputable breeder" - I don't think the concept is propaganda!

Jane
An external cosmetic fault does not mean that a dog carries a genetic health problem or that it will be any more unhealthy that a dog with perfect appearance. Give me the faulted dog any day over the perfect "breed standard" appearence. Breed standards are constantly being refined, in most cases excluding more and more dogs. As the number of "perfect" dogs narrows so do your options for genetic diversity if you are looking ot noly breed perfect. I don't see the problem in breeding a dog with an appearance fault that has no bearing on its health. I don't care that my dog is not "breed standard" color, as long as she is healthy and happy. I don't think you have to breed a champion according to AKC standards to breed healthy happy dogs.

DisneyAprilFool
03-29-2011, 12:10 PM
Not that it matters since so many of you seem to have made up your mind (about the OP in regard to puppies online)... But the whole 'no reputable breeder would sell a puppy online' nonsense is simply that- nonsense.

There are many breeds that cannot be found locally in certain areas of the United States. There are many breeds that can be found locally, but are bred by backyard breeders. In 2011, to slap any breeder who has an animal listed online as a backyard breeder is presumptuous as BEST.

Example: I don't breed dogs, but I breed and show a pretty rare breed of cat. I attend about 6-8 cat shows a year, at about $800-$1000 a pop (entry fees- $200-300, gas- $200-300, hotels- $200, miscellaneous 'oooh, I have to get this new kitty thing'- priceless). My tax man shakes his head when he does my taxes- I pay more in vet bills then most people spend on their car payments a year- at least.

I advertise online. If you email me- expect to have a lot of questions asked back at you. Expect to send me references. Expect for me to talk to your vet. Do not expect a young kitten- the kitten will be spayed/neutered prior to placement and will have received its vaccines. Do not expect to send me money and receive a kitten- I don't work that way and if you aren't willing to share your life with me- I'm not willing to share lives I've created with YOU. Expect a lifelong relationship- I want pictures, I want updates- and if something- ANYTHING- comes up in your life where the kitten cannot remain with you- even fifteen years from now- expect to send them back to me. I prefer not to ship and if I can convince you to fly out and pick up, great. Even better- most people drive out and pick up from our surrounding states! They also know if I'm in the area for a show, I expect to be able to pop in and see how Kitty is doing down the road. If I choose to fly, I choose to fly older kittens/cats and I bite my nails the entire time until they arrive at Point B.

I health screen, I look at pedigrees, I am a member of our breed section, I vote on breed matters. I talk to judges at cat shows, I talk to new owners, potential owners, and just people who want to chat. My life- I live, breathe, and eat these adorable critters.

So if advertising online makes me disreputable- well, wowzie. What does one need to do to be reputable then?

THAT ALL SAID- yes, the internet is swarming with scams and backyard breeders. As much homework as I need to do to find good homes- as a good home, you need to do your homework too. Find out what health issues are inherent in the breed, find out whether the breeder shows or not- if not, find out why. I prefer people who actively work towards the standard- so showing is important to me. Request pictures of the parents- for me, I'd prefer pics of the parents interacting or being with the pups. You want to see that the pups are socialized. Ask for references- but take them all with a grain of salt.

In this current era, the internet can permit you to find whatever you want at your fingertips- sometimes, it's legit, sometimes, it's not.

OH! And you know- if you want a specific breed- join a Yahoo breed group and you'll get to know the good, bad, and ugly about certain breeders that may help you make your decision! Like for my breed- there are two major breeders that are nothing but kittymills, but people will pay upwards of thousands of dollars to purchase from them because their site is slick and their marketing is bar-none the best. So you want to ensure you don't get sucked into something like that.

janey99
03-29-2011, 12:15 PM
An external cosmetic fault does not mean that a dog carries a genetic health problem or that it will be any more unhealthy that a dog with perfect appearance. Give me the faulted dog any day over the perfect "breed standard" appearence. Breed standards are constantly being refined, in most cases excluding more and more dogs. As the number of "perfect" dogs narrows so do your options for genetic diversity if you are looking ot noly breed perfect. I don't see the problem in breeding a dog with an appearance fault that has no bearing on its health. I don't care that my dog is not "breed standard" color, as long as she is healthy and happy. I don't think you have to breed a champion according to AKC standards to breed healthy happy dogs.

I think you are agreeing with me? My own dog is an undesirable color, and has a coat fault, but it is my hope (and my experience so far) that all the legowrk that went into her breeding HAS produced a healthy puppy whose look just happens not to be in vogue right now.

Jane

CinRell
03-29-2011, 12:54 PM
I am still confused by the concept of a "reputable breeder" and exactly what is is supposed to be. Again, I have to ask, what is the difference between a "reputable breeder" and a "backyard breeder"?

As far as I can tell, from what everyone has written, is that a reputable breeder is one that doesn't advertise anywhere so you can't find them. They don't advertise on the internet and they don't advertise in the newspaper and you can't even trust the AKC site. If you actually have found a breeder then it can't possibly be a reputable breeder and it must be a backyard breeder or a puppy mill.

Do these mystery reputable breeders actually exist and how is someone who is not in the know supposed to find them? What questions would you ask a breeder to determine if they are a reputable breeder or a backyard breeder?

I posted a few links that really spell it out.. I'm confused what is still unanswered after reading those links and comments of others??

CinRell
03-29-2011, 12:56 PM
@CinRell -- why are you running an advert for an appliance store in your message...isn't that against this board's TOS?

Mods?

It's not meant to be an advert... many people post still shots of this ad in their avatar. Have you ever stayed on property and turned on the tv for even 5 minutes? if so you know why I posted it. If the mods want me to remove it I will.

CinRell
03-29-2011, 12:57 PM
Soryy, but I have to say it. I don't agree with this. I have seen it before and it is really just propoganda thagt attempts to make people feel it is impossible to get a dog from a "reputable breeder" so they should just adopt. Not every good breeder always has a waitlist for thier puppies, and you do not have to wait a long period of time to get a puppy that is healthy. A breeder CAN have more than a couple of litters a year and still sell healthly puppies, if the goal is not to make every puppy a show champ, but to provide good pets for families. A dog does NOT have to have a champion pedigree to be healthy, in fact I wouldrather have a dog with a more diverse pedigree than one bred to have one specific "champion look". Inbreeding in a BAD thing, and and when you continue breeding "champion bloodline" with "champion bloodline" that is what you are getting unless you are really gonig out of your way to import dogs from other areas on a regular basis. Sorry, but this kind of thing really bothers me and this is the second time it has been posted.

I don't think I, nor the poster you are responding to, ever said it is impossible. In fact we said it IS possible and pointed out HOW to find these responsible breeders!!!

CinRell
03-29-2011, 12:59 PM
Great thread to OP!!!! Going through the same thing right now... SOOO....does anyoneee out there know of any Westie or Cairn breeders in the LI/NY/Tri State area??? TIA!

Colonel potter cairn rescue is AMAZING and national!!!

princessmom29
03-29-2011, 01:24 PM
I think you are agreeing with me? My own dog is an undesirable color, and has a coat fault, but it is my hope (and my experience so far) that all the legowrk that went into her breeding HAS produced a healthy puppy whose look just happens not to be in vogue right now.

Jane
Apparenty I didn't read what you were saying correctly. I read it as these dogs should not be bred as they are faulty and will produce unhealthy pups. I don't believe that is the case.
I don't think I, nor the poster you are responding to, ever said it is impossible. In fact we said it IS possible and pointed out HOW to find these responsible breeders!!!
What you are calling "reputable breeders" would be what I would consider breeders of show dogs. Their primary purpose is not to provide dogs to pet homes but to breed dogs to show. I say that you can breed healthy pets that are perfectly acceptable pet dogs without all of th emphasis on the perfect show dog.

janey99
03-29-2011, 01:54 PM
Apparenty I didn't read what you were saying correctly. I read it as these dogs should not be bred as they are faulty and will produce unhealthy pups. I don't believe that is the case.

What you are calling "reputable breeders" would be what I would consider breeders of show dogs. Their primary purpose is not to provide dogs to pet homes but to breed dogs to show. I say that you can breed healthy pets that are perfectly acceptable pet dogs without all of th emphasis on the perfect show dog.

Ah, we do not agree then - I believe that as a by-product of the show breeding "industry" visually faulted puppies make wonderful pets who have all the other health benefits that their show quality siblings do, but visually faulted puppies should not just become default breeding stock to "make puppies" for people who just want a family dog. Visually faulted puppies should be spayed/neutered before going to pet homes (or the pet homes should agree to spay neuter them).

There are enough puppies being produced through various other means, some valid and some not, such that non-champion purebreds (visually faulted) do not need to be bred and add to the overall dog population.

With respect to my definiton of reputable breeder vs yours, we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't believe "pet dogs" should be intentionally bred - there are enough other dogs out there already. Thoughtfully and judiciously breeding showdogs/champions is a valid pursuit, but IMO, just breeding dogs to increase the dog population on earth is not.

Jane

deedeetoo
03-29-2011, 02:17 PM
I don't believe "pet dogs" should be intentionally bred - there are enough other dogs out there already. Thoughtfully and judiciously breeding showdogs/champions is a valid pursuit, but IMO, just breeding dogs to increase the dog population on earth is not.


I think this is the crux of the disagreement. I think there is more value in breeding dogs to be pets than there is in breeding show dogs. The two most important qualities in a dog, in my opinion, are health and temperment. I don't care about beauty contests and would never say that a dog shouldn't be bred because of color or markings.

janey99
03-29-2011, 02:45 PM
I think this is the crux of the disagreement. I think there is more value in breeding dogs to be pets than there is in breeding show dogs. The two most important qualities in a dog, in my opinion, are health and temperment. I don't care about beauty contests and would never say that a dog shouldn't be bred because of color or markings.

The breeders that I have known are breeding for health and temperament - they do the legwork in selecting ideal physical specimens, which means physically conforming to a breed standard AND being free of health defects. Just because there is also a component of coloring/coat doesn't make the whole pursuit invalid - that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

People who breed champion showdogs self regulate the amount of puppies they produce, in two ways - 1, taking a dog to champion level in order to breed it is a time and money consuming endeavor - they CAN'T do all that and practically have more than one, or sometimes two, litters in a year, and 2, they (in my experience) limit their breeding because they are trying to produce, in their career, a very small handful of ideal dogs. The additional, not visually perfect puppies that are also produced during these pursuits are a reasonable addition to the overall population of dogs being produced in the world generally.

People who breed just to make family pets are not limited by the above, plus there is an incentive to breed as often as possible because there is a money-making aspect. IMO, this creates a moral hazard that can and does result in an over-population of dogs being created.

Additionally, practically speaking, I have never heard of anyone who is not breeding showdogs, but is a breeder of just plain "dogs for temperament" who is not the stereotypical back yard breeder that I alluded to in an earlier post- "my lab is such a sweet girl and that male lab down the street is a big boy, and people love big sweet labs so we should let those two have a litter!" Not a lot of genetics science at work there!

Jane

DisneyAprilFool
03-29-2011, 02:58 PM
See- a good reputable SHOW breeder will be breeding for health, temperament AND the standard. You can't have one without taking all three into consideration.

I believe when you are just breeding for health and temperament, you really are doing your breed no favors. Without having an eye to the correct standard (and for this, I am talking about a healthy standard- I do understand some are too extreme)- you really don't know what you are breeding FOR. If you ever sit and read a standard, it's not as easy as it seems to interpret for the common layperson. Showing gives you that critical eye that you would not develop elsewhere.

Obviously, all my opinion- but since I do show and breed, albeit cats, I think it's pretty valid.

RMulieri
03-29-2011, 03:08 PM
All I can say is Puppymill! Puppymill! anytime you buy a puppy online or at petstore. If you want a specific breed and do not want to adopt a rescue, just make sure you find a reputable breeder. No good breeder would sell online or in news paper they don't have to if they are good. Just be sure to do your homework, it will payoff in the end :)

Just FYI this is a wonderful rescue
http://www.hua.org/component/animals/?animal_type=dog

2nd this..PuppyMill puppies abound on the internet.

louey
03-29-2011, 03:23 PM
2nd this..PuppyMill puppies abound on the internet.


and to give further Props to this rescue, I adopted a Cavalier King Charles from HUA in Oct/2006. She was 2 and before she was flown to live with us she had all her shots, spay, teeth cleaned, micro chipped and surgery on both her knees for luxating patellas. The adoption fee was nothing compared to what they spent on her. She was rescued by HUA from an Arkansas Mill :thumbsup2

princessmom29
03-29-2011, 03:24 PM
I think this is the crux of the disagreement. I think there is more value in breeding dogs to be pets than there is in breeding show dogs. The two most important qualities in a dog, in my opinion, are health and temperment. I don't care about beauty contests and would never say that a dog shouldn't be bred because of color or markings.
this is my opinion as well. Not all healthy dogs with good temprament are show dogs, and not all breeders who breed healthy dogs with good temprament are showing them. A dog does NOT have to be a champion to produce healthy puppies, and I don't get the argument that because there are so many bad breeders rpoducing flawed puppies out there that good dogs should not be bred solely for family pets. If people stop buying form bad breeders and support the good ones, they will stop turning out sick puppies.I also don't understand why breeding for pets is not ok, but breedingto show is. I think I would rather a dog be brought up in a loving pet home than one where his value lies in what he can do in a show ring. Not all breeders who show dogs are looking to "better the breed" many of them are in it for the money, not the dogs. Just because they show champion dogs does nto automatically make them of higher moral fiber. That is a class based argument if I ever heard one. Those with the money to spend on thousand dollar dogs are more in the right thanthose of us looking for afamily pet?? How does that work??

DisneyAprilFool
03-29-2011, 03:30 PM
Why does it have to be one or the other, however?

Show breeders DO produce wonderful pets while they are looking to produce a wonderful dog for the ring. A GOOD dog in the show ring will have a great temperament- shy, snappy dogs will easily be either dismissed and never called back or disqualified if they are THAT nasty.

labdogs42
03-29-2011, 03:39 PM
Consider attending a dog show in your area and talking to breeders there (AFTER they have finished showing for the day). Also check the AKC website for breeders. There is a difference between researching and finding a breeder online and buying a puppy online. Reputable breeders do have websites. Just do a search for them or go through the national breed club for the breeds you are interested in. Rescue is also a good option. But, pet stores and online puppy buying sites are definitely bad news.

MomtoGKC
03-29-2011, 03:50 PM
I think people are a little confused about breeders trying to breed show dogs. Yes, they use championship dogs as parents. However, they are not under any impression that the puppies they produce are all supposed to be show dogs. They are lucky if one out of a litter becomes a show dog. They are breeding dogs to go to good families, however they are taking the time to be sure that the puppies are coming from the best possible background. Our breeder had 4 puppies, not one of these puppies went to a home where we are going to show the dogs. She doesn't care one bit as long as they are with good, responsible families.

Take our dogs as an example. I was very thorough in my research of breeders because our first puppy was from a puppy mill. I bought her back in college before I had ever had a dog or knew anything about dogs. Yes, I was an idiot. She lived to a great age of 15 1/2, but in those 15 years she got arthritis in every knee and got cancer twice. Can you imagine if, before we knew the problems she would have, we decided that because she was so beautiful and was an agility champion that we should breed her?! Oh, and by the way, she came with her legitimate AKC paperwork. As long as both parents are full breed dogs the puppies can have papers, doesn't matter if the parents are 6 months old, brother & sister, have been bred 15 times.

This time around I was super careful in picking my breeder because I knew goldens can have a lot of health problems. Of course, picking a good breeder isn't a guarantee we won't have problems, but there is a lot better chance we will get a healthy dog than the dog we got from the puppy mill.

So, now we have a beautiful, smart, responsibly bred dog with champion parents. Would we breed her? Never. For so many reasons. It is just irresponsible to breed dogs just because "we want her to have puppies once", or "but she's so sweet, everyone should have one of her puppies."

Leave it up to the real breeders who are not just looking to produce perfect dogs, but to produce wonderful family pets all while hoping for a great representation of the breed to come along and further the breed.

MomtoGKC
03-29-2011, 03:54 PM
Why does it have to be one or the other, however?

Show breeders DO produce wonderful pets while they are looking to produce a wonderful dog for the ring. .

Thank you - you said what I was trying to say in a much shorter fashion!


And the breeders I know are not in it for the money. By the time they are done with the testing, care of the mom, stud fees, care of the puppies, food, whelping boxes, vet fees, shots, etc. they usually come out very close to even.

MomtoGKC
03-29-2011, 04:00 PM
.I also don't understand why breeding for pets is not ok, but breedingto show is. I think I would rather a dog be brought up in a loving pet home than one where his value lies in what he can do in a show ring.


But these breeders are not usually breeding to show. They are breeding to provide people with quality pets. Some of their clients may want to show them, some may want to do agility or hunt tests, some may do nothing but dote on them all day. So the breeders breeding champion dogs are actually breeding for pets.

The reason the breeders need to show their dogs is that they can not breed their dogs until they have a certain number of championship points. My breeder usually stops showing her dogs as soon as they have the correct number of championship points, she doesn't love the show ring as much as some others do.


I admit, when I was first looking for dogs I thought the same thing about breeders though, I only learned why it was important not to go to a backyard breeder as I did more research.

leight
03-29-2011, 06:09 PM
14 yrs ago dh & I decided to get our first dog. We reviewed info on different breeds and determined that we wanted a golden retriever. We knew that we wanted a family in a few years and wanted a really family friendly dog. We decided against adopting at the shelters because we just didn't want to take a chance when we brought infants into our home. We started our research for a breeder on the breed's website. Found several local breeders and we narrowed it down to one but she didn't have a litter available for the time we wanted- but she recommended a woman who did have a young litter from which her own champion was the sire. We were interviewed and it was an ideal situation. She was a golden lover, but had a young family and she was really just doing this for her love of the breed and to provide other people with wonderful pets. At the time- I don't know if genetic testing was prevalent- but we were provided with AKC ppwk that showed the bloodlines and the both sides were champion as well as OFA(is that the right term?) clear. Our pup was part of the 2nd( and last) litter for their family dog and the pups were played with by their own kids-they were all family. Our Kahlua was a wonderful, sweet family member we still mourn- she passed at 12.5 in 2008.

6 months later I was dreading spending the holidays without our beloved pet. I again reviewed breeders and found someone who bred labs. I was travelling 2 hrs to see the two young labs she had available (9months & 18months) but I also saw golden puppies on petfinder.com at a nearby rescue to the breeder I was visiting. I decided against the two labs as they were trained for a much more active hunting life than our lifestyle and decided to check on the goldens. There was only one left and the rescue was so horribly maintained that I couldn't bear to leave her, so I took her home. I have no idea about her background- was supposedly from a backyard breeder who was flooded during the hurricane that kept hitting N. florida in 2008. Riley has grown into our family and we love her but you can definiely see the difference in the breeding. I would only adopt again from a Breed rescue who is referred by that breed's club and if the rescue group do temperment training/matching to a family. She has been a lot of work and is worth it now- but I dread what medical issues she may have in the future because I adopted based on emotion and not research.

My point in this is always do what is in the best interest of your family as you welcome this new member- if you don't the poor pup may end up in a shelter because it wasn't right for your family. Don't let anyone guilt you if you have particular circumstances you have to consider- this is a lifetime commitment for all family members. Good luck!

princessmom29
03-29-2011, 07:24 PM
Why does it have to be one or the other, however?

Show breeders DO produce wonderful pets while they are looking to produce a wonderful dog for the ring. A GOOD dog in the show ring will have a great temperament- shy, snappy dogs will easily be either dismissed and never called back or disqualified if they are THAT nasty.
It doesn't have to be one or the other. That is exactly my point. A dog doesn't have to be a show champ to produce healthy puppies
But these breeders are not usually breeding to show. They are breeding to provide people with quality pets. Some of their clients may want to show them, some may want to do agility or hunt tests, some may do nothing but dote on them all day. So the breeders breeding champion dogs are actually breeding for pets.

The reason the breeders need to show their dogs is that they can not breed their dogs until they have a certain number of championship points. My breeder usually stops showing her dogs as soon as they have the correct number of championship points, she doesn't love the show ring as much as some others do.


I admit, when I was first looking for dogs I thought the same thing about breeders though, I only learned why it was important not to go to a backyard breeder as I did more research.
Who says they cannot breed without a championship? The AKC certianly doesn't. They in fact can, but choose not to because a dog from "champion parents" sells for so much more. It is a money game. The same dog, without the champion behind its name still produces the same puppies,

DisneyAprilFool
03-29-2011, 07:53 PM
You are missing the point... For most breeders who DON'T show- they DON'T know what they are looking for to PICK a Champion letalone breed for one. Don't be fooled by the thought that a breeder can eyeball a dog and pick the perfect specimen- it takes TIME and KNOWLEDGE of what the breed standard is actually calling for in order to do this. How do you learn? Well, by showing!

I do agree- a Champion title may not be necessary, but for me- showing is. Perhaps a dog had his tail caught in the door and a kink is a disqualification for that breed. Okay- well, the breeder is still showing their other dogs, they are still learning the breed standard and working towards furthering the breed, but they choose to breed that nonChampionship dog because he IS a good representative of the standard. Okay- I get that.

And I have to laugh- I'm sorry. Have you ever paid to show an animal? Yeah, someone with championship lines might ask more for a puppy- they also work harder to achieve those puppies and pay more to produce those puppies! So yes, those puppies are worth more! Dog people have it rough- I get to go to a show, attend 12 rings, see twelve different judges, and hope to make Best of Breed and then go on to place in a Final- TWELVE times. Dog people- they travel all over to show their dogs and then get ONE chance to wow ONE judge- who might pass them up (and oftentimes does), but MIGHT send them up to become best of breed. Their show entry fees are usually cheaper then cat show fees, but they are still paying for gas, hotels, pet deposits in hotels, food, and all of the other miscellaneous nonsense that goes into attending shows. And then! They pack up and do it again and again as they months go by!

It's not cheap being a reputable breeder. If you expect a cheap pet from one- go somewhere else and take your chances. Me? Nope. I'll pay that extra pretty penny and know that for the lifetime of my pet, I have the support of a breeder who cares and one that actually understands the breed standard and bred to improve the breed, not just to make money as has been implied more then once on this thread.

deedeetoo
03-29-2011, 08:38 PM
You are missing the point... For most breeders who DON'T show- they DON'T know what they are looking for to PICK a Champion letalone breed for one. Don't be fooled by the thought that a breeder can eyeball a dog and pick the perfect specimen- it takes TIME and KNOWLEDGE of what the breed standard is actually calling for in order to do this. How do you learn? Well, by showing!


Ok, you think breed standards are important and you need to show to know what breed standards are and to breed for them. I get that.

But you are missing the other point, which is that most people don't care about the breed standard. They don't care if a breeder is trying to improve the breed or achieve some defined standard. All they want is a dog that will be a good pet.

I understand that a byproduct of breeding to improve the standard will be healthy happy puppies that don't quite qualify for show. But that doesn't mean you can't get healthy happy puppies by breeding dogs that don't perfectly match the standard.

Here is my one real world example of someone getting a dog from a "reputable breeder" (i don't know why I forgot about this when I posted earlier today). My sister has two dogs of the same breed. One is 7 years old, perfectly healthy, and came from a backyard breeder. The dog has no papers and my sister has no idea who the dog's father is. A few years ago they decided to get another dog of the same breed and researched it this time. They found a "reputable breeder" who bred dogs for show. After learning how much this breeder was charging for puppies my sister changed her mind because it was too much. But then she found out that the breeder had one older dog that she had kept intending to show, but that dog was too shy and didn't show well. The breeder offered my sister this dog at a discount and my sister took it. This dog is very pretty, I'll admit, but he's afraid of his own shadow. When we go to visit, the older dog comes out to greet us with tail wagging, while the ex-show dog goes running under the dining room table to hide. I personally think the first dog is a better pet even though the second dog is much closer to the breed standard.

princessmom29
03-29-2011, 08:42 PM
You are missing the point... For most breeders who DON'T show- they DON'T know what they are looking for to PICK a Champion letalone breed for one. Don't be fooled by the thought that a breeder can eyeball a dog and pick the perfect specimen- it takes TIME and KNOWLEDGE of what the breed standard is actually calling for in order to do this. How do you learn? Well, by showing!

I do agree- a Champion title may not be necessary, but for me- showing is. Perhaps a dog had his tail caught in the door and a kink is a disqualification for that breed. Okay- well, the breeder is still showing their other dogs, they are still learning the breed standard and working towards furthering the breed, but they choose to breed that nonChampionship dog because he IS a good representative of the standard. Okay- I get that.

And I have to laugh- I'm sorry. Have you ever paid to show an animal? Yeah, someone with championship lines might ask more for a puppy- they also work harder to achieve those puppies and pay more to produce those puppies! So yes, those puppies are worth more! Dog people have it rough- I get to go to a show, attend 12 rings, see twelve different judges, and hope to make Best of Breed and then go on to place in a Final- TWELVE times. Dog people- they travel all over to show their dogs and then get ONE chance to wow ONE judge- who might pass them up (and oftentimes does), but MIGHT send them up to become best of breed. Their show entry fees are usually cheaper then cat show fees, but they are still paying for gas, hotels, pet deposits in hotels, food, and all of the other miscellaneous nonsense that goes into attending shows. And then! They pack up and do it again and again as they months go by!

It's not cheap being a reputable breeder. If you expect a cheap pet from one- go somewhere else and take your chances. Me? Nope. I'll pay that extra pretty penny and know that for the lifetime of my pet, I have the support of a breeder who cares and one that actually understands the breed standard and bred to improve the breed, not just to make money as has been implied more then once on this thread.
there is no reason you cannot research and recognize the breed standard without spending thousands on dog shows. There is no reason you need to go and pay a judge to tell you what is a "champion" dog. All it takes is observing them over time in their natural environment, not a show ring. You are seriously telling me that there is no way to know what makes a good dog without paying a judge to tell you?? I don't think so. I think years of experience dealing with a dog on a daily basis is much more valuble than what a show judge who has had 5 minutes of contact with them has to say. Breeders who care about their animlas know them, their temprament and their health better than any shoe judge could wether they have ever taken them to a dog show or not. Yes i do believe that selling "champion" dogs is about money. They are looking for money to fund thier next quest for the titile which, as you pointed out does not come cheap.

princessmom29
03-29-2011, 08:47 PM
But you are missing the other point, which is that most people don't care about the breed standard. They don't care if a breeder is trying to improve the breed or achieve some defined standard. All they want is a dog that will be a good pet.

.
this. exactly this. I don't care that my baby is not the perfect show doxie. SHe is the perfect pet for us, and THAT is what is important, a healthy, happy, well ajusted pet, She didn't come form "champion" parents but somehow she and all of her siblings turned out to be happy, healthy, and well adjusted. You can get a GREAT dog without the "champion" tacked on and a $1000 mark up.

DisneyAprilFool
03-29-2011, 08:48 PM
Sorry, I had to giggle...

Okay, can you tell me what a hooded eye is? Can you tell me what this quote means, "The thrust of correct movement is seen when the rear pads are clearly exposed during rear extension. Rear feet do not reach upward toward the abdomen and there is no appearance of walking on the rear pasterns". I could pick through every breed standard and ask if you knew exactly what is expected for the breed standard and chances are- you would know what some things mean- you wouldn't know what a lot of the tiny things mean, but as a whole- that's what makes up a breed!

The reason why there are breed standards is so that breeds LOOK the way they are supposed to look. Otherwise, take a good look at petstores and the type of puppies they sell there- without the breed standards, you will get these huge French Bulldogs that look like mutant Bostons, you will get ChowChows that kinda look like Labs...

Qualiy is not cheap. But if you want to keep believing that- hey, that's fine.

luvmy3
03-29-2011, 09:09 PM
Colonel potter cairn rescue is AMAZING and national!!!

Just wanted to point out that they do not adopt to families with children under 12, and they they rarely make exceptions but if they do its only for families with children over 8.
I can understand the need to sometimes have rules like this on an individual case basis, but when its a general rule, it almost forces families to look elsewhere and they may end up at pet stores and backyard breeders when looking for a specific breed.

princessmom29
03-29-2011, 09:25 PM
Sorry, I had to giggle...

Okay, can you tell me what a hooded eye is? Can you tell me what this quote means, "The thrust of correct movement is seen when the rear pads are clearly exposed during rear extension. Rear feet do not reach upward toward the abdomen and there is no appearance of walking on the rear pasterns". I could pick through every breed standard and ask if you knew exactly what is expected for the breed standard and chances are- you would know what some things mean- you wouldn't know what a lot of the tiny things mean, but as a whole- that's what makes up a breed!

The reason why there are breed standards is so that breeds LOOK the way they are supposed to look. Otherwise, take a good look at petstores and the type of puppies they sell there- without the breed standards, you will get these huge French Bulldogs that look like mutant Bostons, you will get ChowChows that kinda look like Labs...

Qualiy is not cheap. But if you want to keep believing that- hey, that's fine.
A hooded eye is one with a drooping over hanging lid, like a hood. Essentially what you r quote is describing is the proper walking giat. The dog does not pull thier feet upward unnaturally and walks on the proper part of the pad, ensuring proper joint alignment. Sorry, but it is not rocket science, but a basic knowledge of anatomy. I still say that you don't need to pay thousands to get a healthy dog. I did, and didn't pay anywhere near that. I know of no one who has ever paid more that $800 for a purbred dog, and none of them have had the kind of horror stories you are describing. Everyone who I know who has purchased a dog form a breeder who cares has gotten a happy, healthy dog. The $800 was my sister's english bulldog who never had any health issues and outlived the breed life expectancy. She was almost 10 when she passed in her sleep.

design_mom
03-29-2011, 09:27 PM
I was interested in adopting but most shelters have pit bulls, labs, or mixed big dogs. I need a small non shedding dog.

Keep looking (Petfinder, etc.) My mother adopted the *sweetest* Maltese-Poodle mix last spring. She's small and non-shedding. It took my mom several months to find the "right dog" but she was worth the wait!

princessmom29
03-29-2011, 09:27 PM
Just wanted to point out that they do not adopt to families with children under 12, and they they rarely make exceptions but if they do its only for families with children over 8.
I can understand the need to sometimes have rules like this on an individual case basis, but when its a general rule, it almost forces families to look elsewhere and they may end up at pet stores and backyard breeders when looking for a specific breed.
We ran into this problem as well. NO ONE would adopt to us because of our DD's age.

marie1203
03-29-2011, 09:29 PM
I am super confused about what people are really trying to say about shelter dogs. There is plenty of puppies at the shelter. I understand why if you have a family might be a risk getting an older dog. We have 3 dogs that came from the shelter as puppies and they have wonderful temperaments while it is true there are certain aspect of their personality that come with them puppies (that usually shows early as it would any puppy from a breeder or not)most molds to the family. With good socialization as puppies and really don't see how they will be a risk. And this goes for our rescues too. Some of there are the leader or the shy of the group but that goes with any litter.

cnlmom
03-29-2011, 10:35 PM
As a rescuer, my first response is always, check your local shelter and it will remain my mantra.

Regarding breeders. There are good and bad with any industry. However in the pet industry it is unfortunate that the number of bad breeders far outweighs the good breeders. And the ones that are bad are HORID. I personally have been in a "backyard breeders" home and rescued hundreds, yes you read that right, hundreds of animals out of a standard size home on a half acre lot. Many people were shocked. What they did is ran ads in the newspapers for several different small breeds under different peoples names and the deal was, you called, she gave you the address of a friends house, but never told you it was not her home. The potential buyer of the animal would go to visit with the animal, think they were visiting its home and feel things were on the up and up. Why wouldn't they, they were seeing a nice older woman in a clean tidy home with just a few animals in it. Meanwhile she had dozens of different breeds kept in cages in her basement at her real home. She ran this scam for years.

Multiply the number of bad breeders, which again, far outweighs the number of good, by the number of animals they breed...which runs in the thousands with even smaller scale operations and that is a lot of animals that are simply being bred for profit....not temperment, not beauty, not health....simply for the all mighty dollar.

The public can be guilable....I have a co-worker who purchased a Boston Terrier puppy from a "breeder". I do not personally know this breeder, but what I do know is that she took what was a defect in the coat and made it into a positive. Told my friend that it was rare for this breed to have a brown splotch. My friend thinking she got something special, paid extra to purchase this particular puppy with what esentially was a "defect" with that breed. What should have happened was that partiular puppy should have been less for the "defect" in the coat. It is all in how things are presented. Buyer beware...my friend did not do her homework and was taken to the cleaners price wise....that said, she loves her little dog and she really is a sweet little boston.


Like I said in my previous post.....anyone worth their salt, be it a breeder or a rescuer should interview you, ask questions about your lifestyle, ask what you expect in a dog, discuss the breed with you, help you choose a pet that will work with your family and situation. Quite often, what people think they want really is not what they want once they learn the particulars of that breed.

If they seem more interested in telling you what you want to hear or on simply making the sale....walk away.

Shelters have ALL different kinds of animals, big, small, purebred, mutts you name it they get it in....That said, you may have to be patient and wait for the right animal. Getting a pet is a lifetime commitment...take your time and make the right choice. Nothing is worse than picking a dog on a whim or out of guilt and it not working out because you were not prepared. This is why so many animals are in the shelters in the first place. (well that and spay/neutering is simply not done enough...but that is another soapbox).
Be realistic about your expectation, limitations, and lifestyle....get a dog for who you are, not who you wish you were. What i mean by that is don't get a Aussie cause you like to think of yourself as the outdoorsey type who will hike up a mountain when the reality is you spend your weekends chanel surfling and putzing at the local coffee shop......Your Aussie will be miserable and so will you when it tears up your house....you would be more suited for maybe a pug.

Regarding not being able to adopt a pet from a rescue because you have children under 12....Most municipal animal control shelters have really no criteria with ages and a good rescue group will not rule you out simply because of your childs age, UNLESS it is because that particular breed is not as suited for children as others would be. My rescue group is all breed and we match the animal to the family. We adopt to people with infants, toddlers, preschoolers, on up to the elderly. if the dog matches the family and vice versa that is good enough for me. We try to find the yes...which means we realize if rescues make it to difficult to adopt, people will be frusterated and go to petstores and breeders and I would rather them get a great rescue. That said, I will not knowingly put a dog in a bad situation, be it the people should not own an animal or I know this particular animal will not fit into their expectations or lifestyle.

cheekymonkey
03-29-2011, 10:38 PM
We ran into this problem as well. NO ONE would adopt to us because of our DD's age.


We had similar issues. Our youngest child is 5.

princessmom29
03-29-2011, 10:58 PM
We had similar issues. Our youngest child is 5.
It is sad but true, even of local animal control. They never asked anything beyond ages of children. They had no other basis upon which to make a decision. I was told it was for liability reasons. They don't wnt to be liable for a child's injury or the child injuring a dog.

princessmom29
03-29-2011, 11:01 PM
Regarding not being able to adopt a pet from a rescue because you have children under 12....Most municipal animal control shelters have really no criteria with ages and a good rescue group will not rule you out simply because of your childs age, UNLESS it is because that particular breed is not as suited for children as others would be. My rescue group is all breed and we match the animal to the family. We adopt to people with infants, toddlers, preschoolers, on up to the elderly. if the dog matches the family and vice versa that is good enough for me. We try to find the yes...which means we realize if rescues make it to difficult to adopt, people will be frusterated and go to petstores and breeders and I would rather them get a great rescue. That said, I will not knowingly put a dog in a bad situation, be it the people should not own an animal or I know this particular animal will not fit into their expectations or lifestyle.
This has not been my experience. NO ONE locally wanted to hear anything past ages of people in the house. Once they heard 6 year old, they said no. They had no other information to base their decision on. That included animal control.

cnlmom
03-29-2011, 11:02 PM
I am sorry...that makes me so sad that a family would be denied a pet simply because they have young children and no other reason. That is so unnecessary. There are many wonderful pets that need a home that would be great with a child.
I know many municipal animal controls that have zero rules on ages.

Swalphin
03-30-2011, 01:32 AM
Please do not buy a puppy on line or from a pet store. If you could see the conditions these loving souls are forced to exist in it would break you heart. Kept in cages their entire lives forced to breed over and over. Never seeing the light of day, never knowing the tender touch of a good human. Never being allowed to be the companions they were meant to be , please don't do it.

I know you want a dog but honestly going without would be better than supporting these puppy mills. Best of luck to you and your family.

kacaju
03-30-2011, 06:26 AM
Here is my one real world example of someone getting a dog from a "reputable breeder" (i don't know why I forgot about this when I posted earlier today). My sister has two dogs of the same breed. One is 7 years old, perfectly healthy, and came from a backyard breeder. The dog has no papers and my sister has no idea who the dog's father is. A few years ago they decided to get another dog of the same breed and researched it this time. They found a "reputable breeder" who bred dogs for show. After learning how much this breeder was charging for puppies my sister changed her mind because it was too much. But then she found out that the breeder had one older dog that she had kept intending to show, but that dog was too shy and didn't show well. The breeder offered my sister this dog at a discount and my sister took it. This dog is very pretty, I'll admit, but he's afraid of his own shadow. When we go to visit, the older dog comes out to greet us with tail wagging, while the ex-show dog goes running under the dining room table to hide. I personally think the first dog is a better pet even though the second dog is much closer to the breed standard.

Buy beware...Your sister bought the dog KNOWING it was *too shy* I am willing to bet if your sister bought another pup at *full price* your story would be different.

Swimalie
03-30-2011, 07:56 AM
Great thread to OP!!!! Going through the same thing right now... SOOO....does anyoneee out there know of any Westie or Cairn breeders in the LI/NY/Tri State area??? TIA!

My in-laws had a Carin. After a year, the dog started to smell and was kicked outside only to come in for feedings. He would leave the house and the smell would stick around. I know if they had brushed him and cleaned him, the smell would have been less but that experience turned me off from those dogs. The dog lived about 9 years but died after a stoke which took his sight, heading and balance. It was a rough life for a dog living outside.

luvmy3
03-30-2011, 08:10 AM
My in-laws had a Carin. After a year, the dog started to smell and was kicked outside only to come in for feedings. He would leave the house and the smell would stick around. I know if they had brushed him and cleaned him, the smell would have been less but that experience turned me off from those dogs. The dog lived about 9 years but died after a stoke which took his sight, heading and balance. It was a rough life for a dog living outside.

What a sad story, that poor dog. I have a Cairn and yes she has an odor (not always just after we spend time outdoors) but I keep her clean as possible, I couldn't inagine forcing her to live outside, if it ever came to that (which it wouldn't) i'd try to find her a home where people wouldn't do that. If the dog developed an odor after a year, it may have had a bacterial infection.
No offense to you, but your inlaws shouldn't be pet owners.


I saw this in the community board and thought you all would like to see it. Dogs rescued from a puppy mill and placed in shelters in NY.
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/northern_suburbs&id=8041486

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 08:17 AM
A friend of mine decided to go the rescue route after losing his 13 year old dachshund. He's found a rescue that has a rescued puppy mill cairn who recently had puppies. He's getting one of the puppies. He also has small children.

He has to fly out to the rescue ( or drive around 18 hours round trip ) to pick his puppy up. He's doing it because he really wants the puppy and he doesn't want to buy. Many people would not chose this route because it's work/time/effort. My opinion is if you don't want to expend work, time and effort, don't get a dog in the first place.

The reality is NO good breeder will simply mail you a puppy without meeting you and having YOU sign a contract regarding your puppy's long term care including spay neuter ( if the puppy hasn't been deemed show quality ) and returning the puppy to the breeder *at any time* if you can't keep it.

There is enough public knowledge now about puppy mills that I have a hard time believing adults with good sense still consider this route.

Op, you can certainly adopt the dog you seek. If you put in the time and effort. Or you could buy from a reputable breeder if that is the direction you choose. But, buying a dog sight unseen is simply sentencing another dog to live in the life long cruelty that is breeding puppies for pure profit. It's cruel and heartbreaking. I hope you can find another way to bring love into your family.

tlbwriter
03-30-2011, 08:46 AM
The reason why there are breed standards is so that breeds LOOK the way they are supposed to look. Otherwise, take a good look at petstores and the type of puppies they sell there- without the breed standards, you will get these huge French Bulldogs that look like mutant Bostons, you will get ChowChows that kinda look like Labs...

Qualiy is not cheap. But if you want to keep believing that- hey, that's fine.

I think the issue is that for you, quality means "the dog looks the way this breed is supposed to look." But not everyone cares about that. As long as it's not a health issue, I don't care if my dog is shorter than the breed standard, or has an off-color coat.

For example, the breed standard for my dog says the nose should be "entirely black except in light-coloured hounds when it may be brown or liver." So, would my dog, who is not light-colored, be undesirable as a pet simply if she had a brown nose instead of a black one? Her appropriate tail is described as "when moving, stern carried well up and curving gently, sabre-fashion, never curling or gay." I don't know what a gay tail is :laughing:, but if her tail curled in a non-sabre-fashion, would that mean she was undesirable as a pet?

dixonismydog
03-30-2011, 08:52 AM
Just my 2 cents....we have bought 2 dogs online......and they are both SUPER!!!! Couldn't have done better, if I had purchased them locally. DO YOUR RESEARCH.....is the advice I have for you. I even went as far as calling the humane societies close to their area, to see if they knew who these breeders were, or if they had any dealings with them. I called a lot of people actually.....just checking up on them. I also had a good feeling about them.....trust your instincts.

mjkacmom
03-30-2011, 08:53 AM
I think the issue is that for you, quality means "the dog looks the way this breed is supposed to look." But not everyone cares about that. As long as it's not a health issue, I don't care if my dog is shorter than the breed standard, or has an off-color coat.

For example, the breed standard for my dog says the nose should be "entirely black except in light-coloured hounds when it may be brown or liver." So, would my dog, who is not light-colored, be undesirable as a pet simply if she had a brown nose instead of a black one? Her appropriate tail is described as "when moving, stern carried well up and curving gently, sabre-fashion, never curling or gay." I don't know what a gay tail is :laughing:, but if her tail curled in a non-sabre-fashion, would that mean she was undesirable as a pet?

But it can be a health issue. Not only are good breeders breeding for looks, they are breeding for health. They want to know if previous litters ended up with health problems down the road. Most backyard breeders, even if they are a nice family, hooking Fido up with the dog down the block, aren't doing health checks on these dogs.

I used to have a min-pin (bought at a puppy store in my early 20's - I had no clue about puppy mills). Turns out she was healthy. When I was out with her, more than once, people would approach me and ask if she was neutered, because they had male min-pins, and thought it would be cool to breed them and sell the puppies.

tlbwriter
03-30-2011, 09:16 AM
But it can be a health issue.

That's why I specifically said I don't care if it's NOT a health issue. I realize there are issues that are related to a dog's health. Nose color is not one of them.

janey99
03-30-2011, 09:33 AM
But it can be a health issue. Not only are good breeders breeding for looks, they are breeding for health. They want to know if previous litters ended up with health problems down the road. Most backyard breeders, even if they are a nice family, hooking Fido up with the dog down the block, aren't doing health checks on these dogs.

I used to have a min-pin (bought at a puppy store in my early 20's - I had no clue about puppy mills). Turns out she was healthy. When I was out with her, more than once, people would approach me and ask if she was neutered, because they had male min-pins, and thought it would be cool to breed them and sell the puppies.

Thanks for posting this - I think some people are not realizing that breed standards in many cases are not simply visual items - they can be indicative of physiological issues as well, and physiological issues can lead to health problems.

I don't know what a gay tail is either, but I do know that some breeds can be born with a kink in thier tail, which is not the breed standard. You can think this is purely a visual fault, or you can realize that the tail is actually part of the spine, and pathology in the end of the spine where it is visible may be indicative of additional issues in the "backbone" (ie supportive) area of the spine.

The standards, including the visual markers, are intended to identify a dog that is a perfect physical specimen - any deviation from that can have knock on effects for the dogs health.

The problem is, most nice families just looking for a dog don't know what aspects of the standard are purely visual and which can be indicative of health/physiological problems. The "backyard breeder" is just going to tell you what they want you to hear to make the sale (anyone ever hear of "rare white boxers"?), and googling phrases from breed standard documents is not going to get you very far if you're not experienced in actually applying that info to a living animal.

Jane

jodifla
03-30-2011, 09:46 AM
So, adopting a shelter dog is pretty much THE SAME as getting a dog from a puppy mill, it's just one step removed, since most of these shelter dogs were bred by puppy mills. I don't get how that doesn't actually end up supporting the puppy mills.

Again, the problem with this is that you don't know the background of any shelter dog. You MIGHT get lucky, or not. It's a gamble. And it seems like 50 percent of the dogs have pit bull in them, which are prohibited by many local communities.

I agree that lots of the rescues/shelters I've come in contact with STUPIDLY deem us "unsuitable" because we don't have a fenced yard and we have a 9-year-old. So they are exacerbating their own problem.

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 09:56 AM
So, adopting a shelter dog is pretty much THE SAME as getting a dog from a puppy mill, it's just one step removed, since most of these shelter dogs were bred by puppy mills. I don't get how that doesn't actually end up supporting the puppy mills.



You can not possibly be serious. :confused3

I'll try to type slowly for you if it helps. By NOT buying a puppy from a mill, the millers no longer have an income. Then there is no reason to breed more dogs to end up in shelters. How's that?

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 09:57 AM
I have to say. ( And I know the warning is coming ) that last statement was possibly the stupidest thing I've ever read on the Dis. And I've read some stupid things.

RachaelA
03-30-2011, 09:59 AM
So, adopting a shelter dog is pretty much THE SAME as getting a dog from a puppy mill, it's just one step removed, since most of these shelter dogs were bred by puppy mills. I don't get how that doesn't actually end up supporting the puppy mills.


Are you serious?????

Yeah the puppy mill dogs end up in the shelters... because the puppy mill owners drop them off there when they can't sell them. The shelter isn't buying the dogs. The mills are losing money not making it....

tlbwriter
03-30-2011, 10:07 AM
You can not possibly be serious. :confused3

I'll try to type slowly for you if it helps.

Hey, being rude is a really good way to sway others. Awesome job there. :thumbsup2

So, here's a question... if the dogs in shelters come from puppy mills, and dogs from a puppy mill are inferior to those from reputable breeders because they will have health issues, why would a puppy mill dog who ended up at a shelter be any better?

(Disclaimer - I would never buy from a puppy mill, and I have no problem with getting an animal from a shelter. But I'm seeing a lack of logic in this argument.)

princessmom29
03-30-2011, 10:08 AM
Thanks for posting this - I think some people are not realizing that breed standards in many cases are not simply visual items - they can be indicative of physiological issues as well, and physiological issues can lead to health problems.

I don't know what a gay tail is either, but I do know that some breeds can be born with a kink in thier tail, which is not the breed standard. You can think this is purely a visual fault, or you can realize that the tail is actually part of the spine, and pathology in the end of the spine where it is visible may be indicative of additional issues in the "backbone" (ie supportive) area of the spine.

The standards, including the visual markers, are intended to identify a dog that is a perfect physical specimen - any deviation from that can have knock on effects for the dogs health.

The problem is, most nice families just looking for a dog don't know what aspects of the standard are purely visual and which can be indicative of health/physiological problems. The "backyard breeder" is just going to tell you what they want you to hear to make the sale (anyone ever hear of "rare white boxers"?), and googling phrases from breed standard documents is not going to get you very far if you're not experienced in actually applying that info to a living animal.

Jane
I would not consider this a purely visual flaw as it has to do with the bone structure of the dog. I would think any reasoable person would know the difference? If you research the breed you find out what specific things to look for as markers for potential health problems. You don't have to be a fancy breeder to do that. It just takes some reading. For instace, one of the major "things to look for" in doxies is mixing of coat patterns. A double dapple or dapple mixed with piebald can result in a pigmentation based alopecia because of a defective gene carried with the dapple gene. It can also result in hearing and vision issues. You should never buy a mixed pattern dog without evidence of careful genetic screening. I knoe this becuase I took the time to read, not becuase I show dogs or spend thousands on them. It really isn't that hard to do the legwork.

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 10:10 AM
Hey, being rude is a really good way to sway others. Awesome job there. :thumbsup2



I'm sorry. But stupid is stupid.

Would you have had the same problem if the poster said, "Well if people would stop having children, then pedophiles would have no one to molest? It's the stupid parents that bring these kids into the world who are the problem.."?

tlbwriter
03-30-2011, 10:12 AM
I'm sorry. But stupid is stupid.

Would you have had the same problem if the poster said, "Well if people would stop having children, then pedophiles would have no one to molest? It's the stupid parents that bring these kids into the world who are the problem.."?

All I'm saying is, if you're trying to inform people, being rude is ineffective.

Do you have an answer for the question in my post?

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 10:15 AM
My answer would be, if you don't care about the standard/health issues that your dog may have. ( And many people don't hence the proliferation of backyard breeders and mills ) then at least save a life instead of placing generations more of these animals in prison.

robinb
03-30-2011, 10:17 AM
I have to say. ( And I know the warning is coming ) that last statement was possibly the stupidest thing I've ever read on the Dis. And I've read some stupid things.So, where do you think the "purebred" and designer dogs in the shelters and rescues come from?

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 10:18 AM
Hey, being rude is a really good way to sway others. Awesome job there. :thumbsup2



BTW, my DH would tell you that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. However, I don't really care.

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 10:20 AM
So, where do you think the "purebred" and designer dogs in the shelters and rescues come from?

OMG. Really. I know exactly where they come from. From irresponsible people. Lets make some more excuses for them, shall we?

BTW, "designer dogs" are nothing more than mutts. Mixed breeds. Lets call them what they are. And, I'd have far less problem owning a mutt then pretending I had a *designer dog" :rolleyes:

tlbwriter
03-30-2011, 10:22 AM
My answer would be, if you don't care about the standard/health issues that your dog may have. ( And many people don't hence the proliferation of backyard breeders and mills ) then at least save a life instead of placing generations more of these animals in prison.

But do you not see the issue here? You're saying we should care about those issues, should care very much about them, but then should ignore them. Don't buy from backyard breeders! Their dogs are unhealthy! Unless you find one in a shelter, then they're fine! Don't buy a dog of unknown or nonstandard parentage because there's no telling what horrible things are hidden in its DNA! Unless you find it in a shelter, then it's fine! :confused3

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 10:28 AM
For the record. As the owner of several mutts...including this one who I got from the trunk of a car in rural SC at a gas station...

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d157/tammymacb/P1000194-1.jpg

I have never warned against breeds of "unknown origin". I'd own any mix I found and fell for. And it's raise it with love and have a good dog.

robinb
03-30-2011, 10:28 AM
OMG. Really. I know exactly where they come from. From irresponsible people. Lets make some more excuses for them, shall we?But where do the irresponsible people get the dogs? A reputable breeder will take a dog back. A puppy mill and many backyard breeders do not and those animals end up in shelters and rescues. Also, many rescue organizations get their dogs directly from the puppy mills via dog auctions.

BTW, "designer dogs" are nothing more than mutts. Mixed breeds. Lets call them what they are. And, I'd have far less problem owning a mutt then pretending I had a *designer dog" :rolleyes:You may think that, but the puppy mills know that a "mutt" doesn't sell while a "Teddy Bear" or "Doodle" or "Cockapoo" or "Puggle" will sell. That's why there are so many of the "designer dogs" (and you see, I put it in quotes ;)) in shelters.

ETA: Your dog is really cute!

ETA2: Since we're posting pictures, this is Darci:

http://personalpages.tds.net/~rb/DIS/DarciAfter1.jpg

RachaelA
03-30-2011, 10:29 AM
But do you not see the issue here? You're saying we should care about those issues, should care very much about them, but then should ignore them. Don't buy from backyard breeders! Their dogs are unhealthy! Unless you find one in a shelter, then they're fine! Don't buy a dog of unknown or nonstandard parentage because there's no telling what horrible things are hidden in its DNA! Unless you find it in a shelter, then it's fine! :confused3

I think the point is not that the dog is inferior because its not from a reputable breeder, but more so why would you pay thousands of dollars for a regular run of the mill potentially poorly bred dog from a backyard breeder or puppy mill when you can spend anywhere from $50-$200 to get the exact same dog from a shelter or rescue AND save its life AND help stop the puppy mills and bad breeders.

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 10:30 AM
But where do the irresponsible people get the dogs? A reputable breeder will take a dog back. A puppy mill and many backyard breeders do not and those animals end up in shelters and rescues. Also, many rescue organizations get their dogs directly from the puppy mills via dog auctions.

You may think that, but the puppy mills know that a "mutt" doesn't sell while a "Teddy Bear" or "Doodle" or "Cockapoo" or "Puggle" will sell. That's why there are so many of the "designer dogs" (and you see, I put it in quotes ;)) in shelters.

I don't know how you don't get this. I don't have a problem with someone who wants a particular breed buying from a reputable breeder if that's what they want.

Mutts are mutts whatever you would like to call them. And people are different. You may thing a puggle is cute. I think it's a way to get foolish people to part with their money.

labdogs42
03-30-2011, 10:31 AM
I think the issue is that for you, quality means "the dog looks the way this breed is supposed to look." But not everyone cares about that. As long as it's not a health issue, I don't care if my dog is shorter than the breed standard, or has an off-color coat.

For example, the breed standard for my dog says the nose should be "entirely black except in light-coloured hounds when it may be brown or liver." So, would my dog, who is not light-colored, be undesirable as a pet simply if she had a brown nose instead of a black one? Her appropriate tail is described as "when moving, stern carried well up and curving gently, sabre-fashion, never curling or gay." I don't know what a gay tail is :laughing:, but if her tail curled in a non-sabre-fashion, would that mean she was undesirable as a pet?

No, it doesn't mean they don't make a good pet. Show breeders produce pet dogs, too. Every puppy born to a Champion isn't necessarily going to be a breed Champion. They may embody the best qualities of the breed from a health and temperament standpoint, but be lacking in some physical characteristic (like my Lab being a little too tall and carrying his tail over his back). Because these responsible breeders are producing both show and pet quality dogs, there is no reason for people to breed for the sole purpose of producing pet quality dogs only. I think that's what people here are trying to say. Sometimes I find it hard to differentiate between "backyard breeders" and "hobby breeders". I don't think all people who breed dogs and don't show them fall into the same category necessarily.

Of course, depending on what kind of dog you're talking about, you might also look into working lines of the same breed. I'd probably look for obedience and agility titles in my next dog's lineage before I looked for breed championships. It all depends on what you want in the dog.

ETA, Oh yeah, a gay tail is a tail that is carried high over the back, think of a Siberian Husky tail.

luvmy3
03-30-2011, 10:37 AM
Just curious how pet stores work, do they pay puppy mills for the puppies first, or do they only pay IF they are sold to a customer?

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 10:38 AM
Beautiful poodle. I had a friend who had one and it was very smart. As a long time owner of retired racing greyhounds, obviously brains are not at the top of my priority list in dogs. :rolleyes:

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 10:40 AM
Just curious how first, pet stores work, do they pay puppy mills for the puppies first, or do they only pay IF they are sold to a customer?


They pay the millers first. I know this because I came this close to opening a pet store ( no animals just food, toys, beds, etc ) and I got tons of ad mail from millers. I can tell you that the price list I got showed puppy's wholesale at 20% of what the pet stores actually charge you. It's quite the racket.

flash654
03-30-2011, 10:42 AM
So, adopting a shelter dog is pretty much THE SAME as getting a dog from a puppy mill, it's just one step removed, since most of these shelter dogs were bred by puppy mills. I don't get how that doesn't actually end up supporting the puppy mills.

I volunteer at my city's pound two or three times a month. I've seen hundreds of dogs come through in the time I've been there - and I'm sorry but this statement is just not true.

There are three primary sources for dogs who come into the shelter:

1) The owner has chosen to give up the dog, known as "Owner Giveup". In this case, we don't know where the dog came from - but from what the owners tell us, it's usually that they got the dog from a friend or family member, they found it on the street and started taking care of it, or they previously adopted it and can no longer care for it. This group represents maybe half the dogs that come through our shelter.

2) The dog was found on the street, known as "Stray" dogs. When someone calls animal control on a loose dog, a staff member is dispatched to pick up the dog. If the dog is registered with a rabies tag, or has a microchip, we contact the owner of the dog using their last known contact information. If we can find the owner, they come get their dog. If not, we hold the dog for two weeks before evaluating it for adoption by a new owner. This represents maybe 40% of the dogs that I see.

3) Court case and abuse dogs. These are dogs that have been removed from their owners due to animal abuse, or for some other reason. These dogs can stay at the shelter as "unadoptable" for a very long time, because they still belong to their owners until the court cases involving them are settled. Eventually they are either evaluated for adoption or returned to their owners. This represents the last 10% or so that go through.


Please please please try to adopt an animal from your local shelter if you can. The dogs there are in so much need. It's no fault of their own that they're confined to tiny cages, that they get to go outside only once a day for 15 minutes...

Let me share the reality of the situation with everyone. At a place like the city pound, by law we cannot turn animals away. We must accept every animal that is brought to us, and we must pick up every stray call we get. Further, as you can imagine, animal care is not always highest on the list of priorities for a city government. Resources are stretched very thin - and the fact of the matter is that some of these animals are put down if no one adopts them. It's a terrible, sad fact - but there's nothing we can do about it. There are more animals than people who want them. They need to be adopted, or they will die.

Please, consider at least looking at a local shelter before you buy a dog. My family got our dog from the shelter I volunteer at, and she's the sweetest most loving animal you could ever imagine.

robinb
03-30-2011, 10:42 AM
I don't know how you don't get this. I don't have a problem with someone who wants a particular breed buying from a reputable breeder if that's what they want.

Mutts are mutts whatever you would like to call them. And people are different. You may thing a puggle is cute. I think it's a way to get foolish people to part with their money.I was responding to your post where you said that jodifla was wrong that many dogs in shelters and rescues are actually from Puppy Mills. I was supporting her opinion. The Designer Dogs, and people's desire for those mixed breeds, are part of the problem.

tlbwriter
03-30-2011, 10:42 AM
I think the point is not that the dog is inferior because its not from a reputable breeder, but more so why would you pay thousands of dollars for a regular run of the mill potentially poorly bred dog from a backyard breeder or puppy mill when you can spend anywhere from $50-$200 to get the exact same dog from a shelter or rescue AND save its life AND help stop the puppy mills and bad breeders.

And I agree with this point, but that's not what I'm hearing from some other posters, as well as non-DIS posts. Many people are saying that one reason to not buy from puppy mills and bad breeders is because you will get an inferior dog. (Obviously, not supporting those businesses due to cruelty and overpopulation is still a compelling reason not to buy those dogs.) When those same people advocate getting a dog from a shelter instead, knowing that it's very likely to be one of those "inferior dogs," it just doesn't add up.

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 10:47 AM
I was responding to your post where you said that jodifla was wrong that many dogs in shelters and rescues are actually from Puppy Mills. I was supporting her opinion. The Designer Dogs, and people's desire for those mixed breeds, are part of the problem.

But her opinion is that adopting from a shelter is supporting a miller when it's the exact opposite. If you adopt then the money you would have spent to the miller goes to something else. The less profit they make, the more reason to find another business...EVERY adopted dog puts a nail in the puppy millers coffin. I want lots of nails.

And since we're showing pictures. Here's Saylor. Absolutely a pure bred Boykin Spaniel ( SC state dog ) my DH had wanted one for a while and I could not let myself buy a puppy. Went to the SPCA to make a donation and there she was.... in all her swimming glory.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d157/tammymacb/DSCF0045.jpg

robinb
03-30-2011, 10:47 AM
And I agree with this point, but that's not what I'm hearing from some other posters, as well as non-DIS posts. Many people are saying that one reason to not buy from puppy mills and bad breeders is because you will get an inferior dog. (Obviously, not supporting those businesses due to cruelty and overpopulation is still a compelling reason not to buy those dogs.) When those same people advocate getting a dog from a shelter instead, knowing that it's very likely to be one of those "inferior dogs," it just doesn't add up.And I agree with both of you. If you're willing to "roll the dice" why spend more? Save a furry little life and feel good about it :thumbsup2.

janey99
03-30-2011, 10:50 AM
I would not consider this a purely visual flaw as it has to do with the bone structure of the dog. I would think any reasoable person would know the difference? If you research the breed you find out what specific things to look for as markers for potential health problems. You don't have to be a fancy breeder to do that. It just takes some reading. For instace, one of the major "things to look for" in doxies is mixing of coat patterns. A double dapple or dapple mixed with piebald can result in a pigmentation based alopecia because of a defective gene carried with the dapple gene. It can also result in hearing and vision issues. You should never buy a mixed pattern dog without evidence of careful genetic screening. I knoe this becuase I took the time to read, not becuase I show dogs or spend thousands on them. It really isn't that hard to do the legwork.


I think we will have to agree to disagree. While I do think the average person is capable of using The Google to pepper their correspondence with buzz words in connection with any particular topic, I don't think they are capable of understanding of what the totality of those phrases may mean in the context of a breed's entire development and history, particularly when the internet as a source for accurate information is questionable at best.

Jane

tlbwriter
03-30-2011, 10:59 AM
Because these responsible breeders are producing both show and pet quality dogs, there is no reason for people to breed for the sole purpose of producing pet quality dogs only.

Well, there's one reason. Price. Breeding show quality dogs is expensive, and dogs are priced accordingly. I mentioned earlier that I contacted a "reputable breeder" about a certain breed of dog, and she had two possible dogs - an adult for $600, and an older puppy for $1000. If a family wants a specific breed of dog due to its known qualities (and remember, we're supposed to buy from good breeders, because that's how you maintain those known breed qualities), this is going to price a lot of families out of the market. That's why people end up buying from backyard breeders and puppy mills. Should they try to find a breed rescue instead? Sure. But if you want a specific breed, you may not have much luck there (there isn't a rescue in my entire state for my breed of dog, and it's not a rare breed). And if you have a young child, you may be ineligible to adopt. Should they adopt from a shelter instead? Absolutely. Unless they're really set on that specific breed, or they're declared ineligible to adopt because they have a child.

Ideally, there would be one more tier below show breeders. Good breeders who breed for health and temperament but not necessarily for show quality. People who still breed responsibly, following up on their dogs to watch for unseen health issues, screening potential owners, etc. Target dogs instead of Tiffany dogs. ;)

ETA, Oh yeah, a gay tail is a tail that is carried high over the back, think of a Siberian Husky tail.

Thanks. :)

robinb
03-30-2011, 11:03 AM
But her opinion is that adopting from a shelter is supporting a miller when it's the exact opposite. If you adopt then the money you would have spent to the miller goes to something else. The less profit they make, the more reason to find another business...EVERY adopted dog puts a nail in the puppy millers coffin. I want lots of nails.She said:

So, adopting a shelter dog is pretty much THE SAME as getting a dog from a puppy mill, it's just one step removed, since most of these shelter dogs were bred by puppy mills. I don't get how that doesn't actually end up supporting the puppy mills.

And I agree with her. Many dogs are just one step removed from the puppy mills in shelters. I think that breed rescues are even closer since they actually BUY dogs from the mills themselves. How is purchasing an older dog or a litter at an auction NOT supporting puppy mills?

DisneyAprilFool
03-30-2011, 11:06 AM
I think the issue is that for you, quality means "the dog looks the way this breed is supposed to look." But not everyone cares about that. As long as it's not a health issue, I don't care if my dog is shorter than the breed standard, or has an off-color coat.

For example, the breed standard for my dog says the nose should be "entirely black except in light-coloured hounds when it may be brown or liver." So, would my dog, who is not light-colored, be undesirable as a pet simply if she had a brown nose instead of a black one? Her appropriate tail is described as "when moving, stern carried well up and curving gently, sabre-fashion, never curling or gay." I don't know what a gay tail is :laughing:, but if her tail curled in a non-sabre-fashion, would that mean she was undesirable as a pet?

No, you're not understanding me at all. The fact is- breeders breed to the breed standard and will still produce puppies that are pet quality- wrong color, wrong tail carriage, etc. You DO want your breed to look, generally speaking, like your breed. Walk through some pet stores- well, get to REALLY know a few breeds of dogs first- and then walk through pet stores. You will note how grossly misbred and how grossly misrepresented many breeds of dogs are. You say you want a Chihuahua, but it doesn't have to look like the breed standard, right? So you are okay with a 45 pound Chi? Most people wouldn't be!

So good breeders still produce those pet quality puppies- they are lucky and happy if ONE puppy in the litter is show quality and the rest go on to great homes as spayed/neutered pets. (This is the good breeders- the crappy ones will say all of their dogs are show quality and should be bred- run from them!)

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 11:11 AM
She said:



And I agree with her. Many dogs are just one step removed from the puppy mills in shelters. I think that breed rescues are even closer since they actually BUY dogs from the mills themselves. How is purchasing an older dog or a litter at an auction NOT supporting puppy mills?

I know there are groups that take dogs out of mills by buying them in auctions. I guess they look at it like saving the dog from euthanasia or if it's young and still breedable, then it's saving the dog from more life in hell. I don't know how I feel about it actually. Of course, I'd hope EACH dog be rescued from millers and have a shot at a decent life. But, buying the dog is putting money directly in the miller's pocket. I know there are also groups that leave their names with various millers. Basically they give them a card and say, "Any dog you need to get rid of, call us instead, we'll come out and pick it up." I'd personally prefer to deal with the group that isn't financially rewarding the miller.

In all honesty what we need in this country of ridiculous and worthless laws, is a crackdown on puppy mills that's effective. So far this hasn't happened.

And as far as adopting a dog profiting puppy millers...it's just not true. By adopting, the second person has bypassed the miller. The mill would profit if the first person surrendered their dog to the shelter and the second person just went out and bought a puppy while never checking and seeing the dog that was already available for adoption. Every adoption, even if it was originally from a mill, takes money out of a commercial dog breeder's pocket.

ktlm
03-30-2011, 11:11 AM
Again, I'm all for shelter dogs and I've had mutts and they have been great dogs. I'm all for encouraging people to adopt dogs from shelters; however, that is not for everyone. Some people need certain characteristics in their breed, and if you have small children in the house or plan to soon, you have to be very careful about the animals you are making a part of your family. If you are looking for a certain breed because you want specific characteristics (i.e. non-shedding; temperment; "hypoallergenic" etc.), you have to be careful about getting a pure-bred rescue dog. (Again, just because you get the dog from a reputable breeder (and in my opinion they don't have to have champions to qualify), does not mean they will have those characteristics; however, your chances of getting a dog that does have such characteristics is much higher.)

Here was my research experiece. Not to sound like a broken record from my previous posts, but we absolutely adore our Havanese. After DD was born and was out of the infant stage, we thought about adding second dog, but knew if we did we wanted another Havanese, so I checked into several Havanese Rescues and have continued to check them here and there over the last couple of years just to see what dogs are available.

There are somedogs that have come from familes that just didn't want them, or couldn't keep them for whatever reason (I found a sweet story about an already adopted rescue that was rejected because its former owner didn't like that it wanted to be on her lap all the time and was constantly right next to her-- uh- lady that is what the Havanese does by breed nature :confused3 ). However, the vast majority of the rescue dogs I found were puppy mill dogs-- the rescue organizations I checked with disclose that to you and advise you of where they obtained each dog they have available for adoption. Apparently some puppy mills use the rescues for a dumping ground when the dogs don't meet the breed standards they want and either aren't sold as puppies or as adults are not breeding sucessfully. The rescue facilities obviously are going to take them in, because of the risk that if they don't the millers will kill them. (Others are rescued when the mills are exposed and shut down).

What I discovered was that because of these being mill "rejects", many of them were what they refer to as "Shavanese"-- a term I think the millers came up with to try to sell puppies with a major breeding issue. "Shavanese" are Havanese that through very poor breeding (and probably even mixed blood somewhere), wind up with short hair and not only that, they shed, and therefore are not "hypoallergenic". This totally defeats the purpose if you are wanting a Havanese because the breed does not shed and is great for people with allergies. We have allergies in our house, so that doesn't work for us. They are probably great dogs, and will make perfect sweet pets for someone, but the fact is that if you need a Havanese because of the allergy problems you have, and will have with other dogs, this would probably not be the right choice of dog for you.

Also, we found that most (not all) of the rescue facilities would not adopt to people with children under the age of 6, EVEN though the Havanese breed is generally known to be great with kids. The answers we got were that because of the lack of socialization of these puppy mill dogs and the potential variations from breed characteristics due to poor or unknown breeding, the facilities could not be sure that the dogs would be safe with smaller kids, or the kids safe for the dogs. There were exceptions. We found that where the rescue came from a known family that just couldn't keep it due to deployment, moving, family illness, death, etc. that the rescue organization might allow such a dog to be placed with kids, particularly if the dog had come from a family with small kids.

Our breeder has started taking in and offering a few rescue dogs, so if we do add to the family, we may consider even doing that through her because we know that with her familiarity with the breed, she will not steer us wrong in terms of whether the rescue is a good fit with us. I suspect (although I have never talked to her) that some of her rescues may have been dogs she initially bred because it is in our purchase contract that if we EVER decided to get rid of our dog outside of our family members (no chance of that!!!!), that we would have to first give her the right to re-claim the dog.

princessmom29
03-30-2011, 11:34 AM
I think we will have to agree to disagree. While I do think the average person is capable of using The Google to pepper their correspondence with buzz words in connection with any particular topic, I don't think they are capable of understanding of what the totality of those phrases may mean in the context of a breed's entire development and history, particularly when the internet as a source for accurate information is questionable at best.

Jane
I guess I just have more faith in the intelligence of the average person. I just don't think they are that stupid, and FWIW, I don't apperciate the jab. I am not randomly looking up buzz words as you seem to be implying. I actually read real books. As for the internet, I would think any reasonable adult would know that you must consider the source of any information, wether fro ma book or the internet. I am actually capable of understanding what I am reading, as anyone with a 6th grade education should be. Sorry, but this is not astrophyisics or neuroscience. I think the avergae person is perfectly capable of figuring it out.

Swalphin
03-30-2011, 12:52 PM
So, adopting a shelter dog is pretty much THE SAME as getting a dog from a puppy mill, it's just one step removed, since most of these shelter dogs were bred by puppy mills. I don't get how that doesn't actually end up supporting the puppy mills.

Again, the problem with this is that you don't know the background of any shelter dog. You MIGHT get lucky, or not. It's a gamble. And it seems like 50 percent of the dogs have pit bull in them, which are prohibited by many local communities.

I agree that lots of the rescues/shelters I've come in contact with STUPIDLY deem us "unsuitable" because we don't have a fenced yard and we have a 9-year-old. So they are exacerbating their own problem.

If you get a puppy mill dog from a shelter you are saving a life. My friend has a puppy mill dog, Sadie, that was bred over and over never having a name. never having her paws touch the ground. Now she has a chance to be a dog. Buying suports the industry as long as there is a dollar to be made these mills will continue to exist. My friend always makes sure to tell people it is a rescue. A rescue, shelter, pound are non profit they struggle to save these lives. Trust me they are not in it for the money. If you do the math they are losing money, they do it for the love of the animals.
Both of my dogs are rescues, just mutts, they are the most loving animals & healthy you could ever hope to share your life with. They deserved a chance and I happily gave it to them, I had zero expectations I knew if I put in the time I would get it back 10 fold. Nothing wrong with a mutt they can be the most beautiful dogs. My Maggie is turning 11 this month not one health issue, my lil one is 4, no health issues either.
I hope you find a dog that is a right fit for your family it will add so much to your child's life.

Swalphin
03-30-2011, 12:56 PM
And I agree with both of you. If you're willing to "roll the dice" why spend more? Save a furry little life and feel good about it :thumbsup2.

:thumbsup2Why breed or buy while shelter dogs die.

robinb
03-30-2011, 01:30 PM
:thumbsup2Why breed or buy while shelter dogs die.Well ... I answered that earlier. My poodle (a page or two back) was purchased from a breeder because I wanted a properly bred dog dog with genetic testing. I can't get that from a shelter or rescue.

Happiest mommy
03-30-2011, 01:30 PM
It is true some shelters will not allow you to adopt if you have small children and as you can see from my siggy I have 2 DD's I was able to find a shelter that approved us:goodvibes it just takes time, sure I could have ran to the nearest pet shop or looked online but I liked the fact that I was saving a furry friends life and she will be coming with her shots etc for close to nothing:thumbsup2

labdogs42
03-30-2011, 01:41 PM
Ideally, there would be one more tier below show breeders. Good breeders who breed for health and temperament but not necessarily for show quality. People who still breed responsibly, following up on their dogs to watch for unseen health issues, screening potential owners, etc. Target dogs instead of Tiffany dogs. ;)

Thanks. :)

True. I think there are actually some breeders out there like this. IMO, a "responsible breeder" doesn't have to show their dogs, but they need to be doing the health checks, and screening the homes their dogs go to, also offering to take the dog back if the new owners can no longer care for it, etc. That's what responsible breeder means to me.

Also, not all breeders sell their puppies at exorbitant prices. Many puppy mills and pet stores sell puppies for more money than I have seen some reputable breeders charge.

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 01:47 PM
http://www.bayoubay.com/

If I were ever to buy a puppy, it would probably be from these people...Take a look at the website and their sales and conditions and ask yourself what other online breeders require.

CinRell
03-30-2011, 02:11 PM
She said:



And I agree with her. Many dogs are just one step removed from the puppy mills in shelters. I think that breed rescues are even closer since they actually BUY dogs from the mills themselves. How is purchasing an older dog or a litter at an auction NOT supporting puppy mills?

Responsible RESCUES do not pay puppy millers for their dogs. some mills will give their unwanted, non producing dogs to rescues instead of killing them to avoid bad press ..... so those who go and play a bidding war or line the pockets of puppy mills ARE supporting the mills. Period. But adopting a mill survivor from a rescue or shelter that does NOT pay millers is in NO WAY supporting a mill.

I want to share my pound puppy's picture too:) He's a boxer mix. I think he's more beautiful than any show dog there is;)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a37/RuPaDoo/rileycoat.jpg

princessmom29
03-30-2011, 02:38 PM
:thumbsup2Why breed or buy while shelter dogs die.
honestly? Other than the fact that no shelter would adopt to us, the safety and happiness of my family is important to me, and I am not willing to risk that on a dog that may or may not have physical, emotional, and psychological problems. You just never know with a shelter dog. These are the same reasons I am not willing to purchase a puppy form just anyone and did extensive research before pruchasing.

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 03:05 PM
No kidding. I've heard all about those killer pound puppies that take out whole families! :eek:

Oh wait, I forgot that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

princessmom29
03-30-2011, 03:12 PM
No kidding. I've heard all about those killer pound puppies that take out whole families! :eek:

Oh wait, I forgot that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
I had a childhood friend who literally had his face torn off by a "pound puppy" the family had adpoted. He had hundreds of stiches and several reconstructive procedures. I don't find it funny.

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 03:17 PM
And I'm sure no dog ever bought from a breeder has done such a thing?

If you want to buy a puppy, fine. Buy one. But for Pete's sake, take a stand. Say," I don't care how many pound dogs die, I want a shnoodledingle". And say it with pride...Don't use your families "safety and happiness" as your excuse. There are millions of families in the US who are very happy and safe with their pets who were adopted at shelters.

princessmom29
03-30-2011, 03:25 PM
And I'm sure no dog ever bought from a breeder has done such a thing?

If you want to buy a puppy, fine. Buy one. But for Pete's sake, take a stand. Say," I don't care how many pound dogs die, I want a shnoodledingle". And say it with pride...Don't use your families "safety and happiness" as your excuse. There are millions of families in the US who are very happy and safe with their pets who were adopted at shelters.
I am not making excuses. We wanted a Doxie, because it was the best fit for our familt. Itintally i was willing to take the risk and go the resuce route b/c it is small breed dogand not going to do the kind of damage the Shepard did to my friend. No resuce or shelter would adopt to a family with a 6 year old, so we purchased one. I would NEVER adopt a large breed dog from a shelter, becuase you just don't know the dog's history. Have many families been happy? Of course, but many have also returned dogs too tramautized to function in family and dogs with mental healt issues that result from poor breeding. The odds are much better that you are getting a happy well adjusted dog from a good breeder than from a shelter. Sorry, I know it is not what you want to hear, but it is true. My child's safety is more important to me than saving a dog. I am not willing to risk it.

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 03:28 PM
You do get that many "mental health issues" in dogs are CAUSED by close breeding correct? There have been many breeds ruined because they became mainstream popular. ( IE cocker spaniels ) So, if you're looking for a dog that doesn't have mental/physical issues from poor breeding, you should really be looking for a mutt.

CinRell
03-30-2011, 03:41 PM
Tammy is SO correct. We recently shut down a local pet store known to sell puppies from puppy mills. MANY of the people who purchased from this store ended up with dogs with SEVERE behavioral problems because of poor and in-breeding.

Many shelters and rescues temperment test and know the behavior of the dogs before they are adopted out.

RachaelA
03-30-2011, 04:16 PM
And I'm sure no dog ever bought from a breeder has done such a thing?

If you want to buy a puppy, fine. Buy one. But for Pete's sake, take a stand. Say," I don't care how many pound dogs die, I want a shnoodledingle". And say it with pride...Don't use your families "safety and happiness" as your excuse. There are millions of families in the US who are very happy and safe with their pets who were adopted at shelters.

:thumbsup2

luvmy3
03-30-2011, 04:30 PM
And I'm sure no dog ever bought from a breeder has done such a thing?

If you want to buy a puppy, fine. Buy one. But for Pete's sake, take a stand. Say," I don't care how many pound dogs die, I want a shnoodledingle". And say it with pride...Don't use your families "safety and happiness" as your excuse. There are millions of families in the US who are very happy and safe with their pets who were adopted at shelters.

Wow, thats a pretty high horse you are on. Interestingly enough, I'd be willing to listen to your arguments and your points except for the fact that I don't have any respect for people that go about arguing the way you have here. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that way, so good luck getting people to help you in your "cause", it sounds like you really may need it :rolleyes:

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 04:33 PM
Wow, thats a pretty high horse you are on. Interestingly enough, I'd be willing to listen to your arguments and your points except for the fact that I don't have any respect for people that go about arguing the way you have here. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that way, so good luck getting people to help you in your "cause", it sounds like you really may need it :rolleyes:

Whatever. Either you care about animal welfare. Or you don't. Again take a stand one way or the other, but don't blame others if you don't.

melancholywings
03-30-2011, 04:35 PM
I have had some very bad (violent) experiences with shelter dogs that were marked 'good with kids', animals that should never have been adopted out to a family.

I found our breeder online, exchanged multiple emails before meeting with her, she got to know our family and helped us pick out a dog from her litter that showed a personality that would be most suitable for us. She also required spaying and training. I was very impressed that she cared what happened to her puppies after adoption. He is the nicest and kindest dog - who occasionally gets into doggie mischief.:rotfl:

I wouldn't buy online sight unseen as I think it's important to meet the breeder in person, and see where and how the dogs are - as it's going to be a member of your family for a very long time.

luvmy3
03-30-2011, 04:38 PM
Whatever. Either you care about animal welfare. Or you don't. Again take a stand one way or the other, but don't blame others if you don't.

This isn't about me, this is about you ;)

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 04:40 PM
This isn't about me, this is about you ;)

Not quite. It's about me challenging excuses made of why you shouldn't adopt shelter dogs. If you'd like to make it more personal, you may want to find someone who cares more about what you think.

kacaju
03-30-2011, 04:44 PM
If you want to buy a puppy, fine. Buy one. But for Pete's sake, take a stand. Say," I don't care how many pound dogs die, I want a shnoodledingle". And say it with pride...Don't use your families "safety and happiness" as your excuse. There are millions of families in the US who are very happy and safe with their pets who were adopted at shelters.

Just because I choose to buy purebred dogs (we show dogs) does not mean I don't care if *pound puppies die*
And for the record I do own a mix breed from the shelter as well as my purebreds.

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 04:46 PM
And I've said repeatedly, if you chose to buy a dog from a responsible breeder, fine. Have at it. But don't say you "can't" adopt because you have to keep your family safe. It's ridiculous.

luvmy3
03-30-2011, 04:52 PM
Not quite. It's about me challenging excuses made of why you shouldn't adopt shelter dogs. If you'd like to make it more personal, you may want to find someone who cares more about what you think.

No actually its not about that at all and I really don't care if you don't care what I think, I'm not the one here trying to get people to care what I have to say. Its about you, who seems to be very passionate about this particular subject. You come here and post your opinions and some facts to help the readers understand where you are coming from and why. However, you let your emotions get the better of you,ou started out making good points, but I guess they just thought they weren't good enough, so you start to disrespect those same people you want to inform. So, I'll say it again, Good Luck with that because by the way you go about it at least here on the DIS, you are definitely going to need it. You should just let your siggy line do the talking from now on.

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 04:59 PM
I didn't ask you to be my friend or my mentor. Sorry if you don't like my tone, but in the end, I don't care what you think. Nor, do I need you to be my personality coach...

kacaju
03-30-2011, 05:13 PM
And I've said repeatedly, if you chose to buy a dog from a responsible breeder, fine. Have at it. But don't say you "can't" adopt because you have to keep your family safe. It's ridiculous.

I don't think it is ridculous. To be honest. I just took a quick look on petfinder and most all of the breeds that came up are pitbulls I saw maybe one or two dogs there that i would recommend for a friend with kids to consider, most of them, no way.
They maybe sweet dogs, but I would not own a pitbullor a pit mix. To each there own.
To be fair I only looked at the first two pages go look yourself zip is 08840.

Off to dog handling class.

FredS
03-30-2011, 05:13 PM
...We wanted a Doxie, because it was the best fit for our familt. Itintally i was willing to take the risk and go the resuce route b/c it is small breed dogand not going to do the kind of damage the Shepard did to my friend. .... I would NEVER adopt a large breed dog from a shelter, becuase you just don't know the dog's history. Have many families been happy? Of course, but many have also returned dogs too tramautized to function in family and dogs with mental healt issues that result from poor breeding. The odds are much better that you are getting a happy well adjusted dog from a good breeder than from a shelter....My child's safety is more important to me than saving a dog. I am not willing to risk it.


Whoa, surely I am misunderstanding. Your earlier post said "Doxie" but ?? You repeatedly have talked about all the research you have done and how important breeding is so you will know exactly what you are getting, and talking about safety with a dog and your young child and your choice of dog was a DACHSHUND??!! Seriously?

Dachshunds can absolutely be adorable and smart and lots of fun. But, as a breed, they are one of the most jealous dogs, and are prone to growling and snapping. I like them, and have a couple of family members who wouldn't own anything else, but they freely admit they aren't the best choice of pet to have with a small child.

luvmy3
03-30-2011, 05:22 PM
I didn't ask you to be my friend or my mentor. Sorry if you don't like my tone, but in the end, I don't care what you think. Nor, do I need you to be my personality coach...

Oh I see, you have no problem giving advice, only taking it. gotcha :thumbsup2 And you don't have to worry, the last thing I care about, is being your friend or anything ;)

Good luck with your cause :rolleyes1

Swimalie
03-30-2011, 05:50 PM
What a sad story, that poor dog. I have a Cairn and yes she has an odor (not always just after we spend time outdoors) but I keep her clean as possible, I couldn't inagine forcing her to live outside, if it ever came to that (which it wouldn't) i'd try to find her a home where people wouldn't do that. If the dog developed an odor after a year, it may have had a bacterial infection.
No offense to you, but your inlaws shouldn't be pet owners.


The good news is now my mother in law owns a pure bred,from a breeder show dog and takes great care of it. The dog, not a Carin, just won first place at his last show.

dixonismydog
03-30-2011, 06:16 PM
Whoa, surely I am misunderstanding. Your earlier post said "Doxie" but ?? You repeatedly have talked about all the research you have done and how important breeding is so you will know exactly what you are getting, and talking about safety with a dog and your young child and your choice of dog was a DACHSHUND??!! Seriously?

Dachshunds can absolutely be adorable and smart and lots of fun. But, as a breed, they are one of the most jealous dogs, and are prone to growling and snapping. I like them, and have a couple of family members who wouldn't own anything else, but they freely admit they aren't the best choice of pet to have with a small child.
I have to disagree with you. I have 2 Doxies that are excellent with everyone. From 1 yr to 80 yrs....they love everyone! But....I did get them as puppies....and I know their history.

luvmy3
03-30-2011, 06:16 PM
The good news is now my mother in law owns a pure bred,from a breeder show dog and takes great care of it. The dog, not a Carin, just won first place at his last show.

I'm glad that she takes good care of the dog she has now. Its still sad that the other was only let in the house to eat. Odor or not, thats not how you treat a family pet. What would have happen if this one had a flaw?

dixonismydog
03-30-2011, 06:23 PM
And I've said repeatedly, if you chose to buy a dog from a responsible breeder, fine. Have at it. But don't say you "can't" adopt because you have to keep your family safe. It's ridiculous.

Totally disagree. I won't risk my kids safety either. It's not ridiculous. Not a bit. And it's not an excuse. Not that I "couldn't" adopt.......I chose not to.

I give my local shelter hundreds of dollars a year in donations.......and I've taken in dozens of stray/wounded animals over the years. I am a TOTAL animal lover......But for me.....it's not fair for my kids, or their friends, to be at risk playing with a dog with a sketchy past. For me, I need to know the dog's entire history.

princessmom29
03-30-2011, 06:39 PM
You do get that many "mental health issues" in dogs are CAUSED by close breeding correct? There have been many breeds ruined because they became mainstream popular. ( IE cocker spaniels ) So, if you're looking for a dog that doesn't have mental/physical issues from poor breeding, you should really be looking for a mutt.
carefully bred purebred dogs don't typically have mental health issues either. You obviously aren't going to listen to reason. I give up.
Whoa, surely I am misunderstanding. Your earlier post said "Doxie" but ?? You repeatedly have talked about all the research you have done and how important breeding is so you will know exactly what you are getting, and talking about safety with a dog and your young child and your choice of dog was a DACHSHUND??!! Seriously?

Dachshunds can absolutely be adorable and smart and lots of fun. But, as a breed, they are one of the most jealous dogs, and are prone to growling and snapping. I like them, and have a couple of family members who wouldn't own anything else, but they freely admit they aren't the best choice of pet to have with a small child.
I don't find that to be true at all. There have always been mini doxies in the family. We had one growing up, so did DH, DH's mom and my mom. Never any problems with children. I did see it mentioned a couple of places that full size doxies can be possessive, but according to what I read it is much less prevelant in minis, particularly longhairs, which is what we have. We spent a lot of time with Bella before bringing her home to be sure she was a good fit for all of us, including DD. The only thing she barks at is the neighbor's cat, and has never snapped at anyone. I have never known a doxie to snap, and have been around at least a dozen on a regular basis. None I have ever been around has a problem with children and it was nowhere in the literature I read. Plus, an 8 lb dog is not going to do the kind of damage a pit bull will if something were to happen, which is highly unlikely. Nothing I have read asys they are not good with children. Bella and my DD are best buds.

labdogs42
03-30-2011, 06:44 PM
http://www.bayoubay.com/

If I were ever to buy a puppy, it would probably be from these people...Take a look at the website and their sales and conditions and ask yourself what other online breeders require.

OMG, those are some beautiful Labs! I'll be bookmarking their site for my future reference!

deedeetoo
03-30-2011, 06:45 PM
Your earlier post said "Doxie" but ?? You repeatedly have talked about all the research you have done and how important breeding is so you will know exactly what you are getting, and talking about safety with a dog and your young child and your choice of dog was a DACHSHUND??!!

This is sort of off topic but I had to laugh. Throughout this thread princessmom29 has been talking about her doxie. I had never head of a doxie and just throught that must be the dog's name. This post made me realize that all along she had been talking about a dachshund. :rotfl: I don't know any one who owns a dachshund and had never heard of them referred to like that. I feel quite foolish.

princessmom29
03-30-2011, 06:51 PM
This is sort of off topic but I had to laugh. Throughout this thread princessmom29 has been talking about her doxie. I had never head of a doxie and just throught that must be the dog's name. This post made me realize that all along she had been talking about a dachshund. :rotfl: I don't know any one who owns a dachshund and had never heard of them referred to like that. I feel quite foolish.
Sorry! Don't feel bad! It was my fault for not typing the whole thing. I didn't even think about it b/c that is what we have always called them!

dixonismydog
03-30-2011, 06:53 PM
carefully bred purebred dogs don't typically have mental health issues either. You obviously aren't going to listen to reason. I give up.

I don't find that to be true at all. There have always been mini doxies in the family. We had one growing up, so did DH, DH's mom and my mom. Never any problems with children. I did see it mentioned a couple of places that full size doxies can be possessive, but according to what I read it is much less prevelant in minis, particularly longhairs, which is what we have. We spent a lot of time with Bella before bringing her home to be sure she was a good fit for all of us, including DD. The only thing she barks at is the neighbor's cat, and has never snapped at anyone. I have never known a doxie to snap, and have been around at least a dozen on a regular basis. None I have ever been around has a problem with children and it was nowhere in the literature I read. Plus, an 8 lb dog is not going to do the kind of damage a pit bull will if something were to happen, which is highly unlikely. Nothing I have read asys they are not good with children. Bella and my DD are best buds.

We have mini long-haired as well! English cream and a silver dapple!;)

CinRell
03-30-2011, 06:57 PM
carefully bred purebred dogs don't typically have mental health issues either. You obviously aren't going to listen to reason. I give up.

I don't find that to be true at all. There have always been mini doxies in the family. We had one growing up, so did DH, DH's mom and my mom. Never any problems with children. I did see it mentioned a couple of places that full size doxies can be possessive, but according to what I read it is much less prevelant in minis, particularly longhairs, which is what we have. We spent a lot of time with Bella before bringing her home to be sure she was a good fit for all of us, including DD. The only thing she barks at is the neighbor's cat, and has never snapped at anyone. I have never known a doxie to snap, and have been around at least a dozen on a regular basis. None I have ever been around has a problem with children and it was nowhere in the literature I read. Plus, an 8 lb dog is not going to do the kind of damage a pit bull will if something were to happen, which is highly unlikely. Nothing I have read asys they are not good with children. Bella and my DD are best buds.

Pit bulls were once called the nanny dogs... they were war heros. Until the media and irresponsible owners painted such a negative picture of them...

Cocker Spaniels send more people to the hospital with bite wounds than pits do each year. Even fighting pits are bred so that in the middle of a bloody (disgusting) fight, a human can reach between and separate the dogs without being bit.

Please don't use pits as the example of a biting dog. That only ads to the problem many of us who know and understand the breed are trying to fight.

People who want a certain breed and want to go to a breeder for it but "don't care about breed standards" baffle me. It is clear you are not supporting a responsible breeder if don't even care about standards to the characteristics of that breed, is it not??

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Pit_Bull_with_baby_1892.jpg

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/7400000/Little-Rascals-Petey-pitbulls-7438783-340-460.jpg

FredS
03-30-2011, 06:59 PM
This is sort of off topic but I had to laugh. Throughout this thread princessmom29 has been talking about her doxie. I had never head of a doxie and just throught that must be the dog's name. This post made me realize that all along she had been talking about a dachshund. :rotfl: I don't know any one who owns a dachshund and had never heard of them referred to like that. I feel quite foolish.

I know! As I said, I am very familiar with dachshunds and them being referred to as doxies, but I was like :scared1: she picked THAT breed specifically because of safety issues with a small child? Wow. I even thought MAYBE she just happened to pick that name for her dog which was a breed known for its patience with kids and gentle nature. Apparently not!

Even lovers of dachshunds freely acknowledge the breed's inclination towards possessiveness and irritability with children and strangers. Here's just one reference online, but there are tons of them, and it is really common knowledge.

http://www.dachworld.com/dispositiontemperament.htm

I dunno, I just don't get "I don't want to gamble on a mixed breed; let me buy a purebred dog that is more difficult with children than most." LOL :lmao:

dixonismydog
03-30-2011, 07:07 PM
I know! As I said, I am very familiar with dachshunds and them being referred to as doxies, but I was like :scared1: she picked THAT breed specifically because of safety issues with a small child? Wow. I even thought MAYBE she just happened to pick that name for her dog which was a breed known for its patience with kids and gentle nature. Apparently not!

Even lovers of dachshunds freely acknowledge the breed's inclination towards possessiveness and irritability with children and strangers. Here's just one reference online, but there are tons of them, and it is really common knowledge.

http://www.dachworld.com/dispositiontemperament.htm

I dunno, I just don't get "I don't want to gamble on a mixed breed; let me buy a purebred dog that is more difficult with children than most." LOL :lmao:
It's not the mix breed that is a gamble to me. I have no issue with having a dog that isn't a purebred. I do feel, that I need to know the dogs history and the way it's been cared for and handled since birth. Even a puppy that has been miss handled at a few weeks old, is starting to learn it's defense mechanisms. I felt it was safer for my kids, that I deal with a breeder that has children in the puppies lives from only a few days old.

I do hear what you are saying, about doxies being a little tempermental. I have just never experienced it. My vet has 6 in her office, that wander freely. All the kids that come in, head over, pick them up, twirl them around and they have no issues with it.

Actually the meanest dog I have ever encountered, was a Golden Retriever......the breed that is supposed to be EXCELLENT with kids!

princessmom29
03-30-2011, 07:10 PM
We have mini long-haired as well! English cream and a silver dapple!;)
ours is an English Cream. She is the sweetest girl ever and very good with kids. The whole neighborhood loves her.

princessmom29
03-30-2011, 07:12 PM
It's not the mix breed that is a gamble to me. I have no issue with having a dog that isn't a purebred. I do feel, that I need to know the dogs history and the way it's been cared for and handled since birth. Even a puppy that has been miss handled at a few weeks old, is starting to learn it's defense mechanisms. I felt it was safer for my kids, that I deal with a breeder that has children in the puppies lives from only a few days old.

I do hear what you are saying, about doxies being a little tempermental. I have just never experienced it. My vet has 6 in her office, that wander freely. All the kids that come in, head over, pick them up, twirl them around and they have no issues with it.

Actually the meanest dog I have ever encountered, was a Golden Retriever......the breed that is supposed to be EXCELLENT with kids!
Exactly. It is not the idea of a mixed breed that bothers me. Not at all. I don't know where anyone got that? It is not knowing the history of the dog, regardless of breed.

princessmom29
03-30-2011, 07:29 PM
I know! As I said, I am very familiar with dachshunds and them being referred to as doxies, but I was like :scared1: she picked THAT breed specifically because of safety issues with a small child? Wow. I even thought MAYBE she just happened to pick that name for her dog which was a breed known for its patience with kids and gentle nature. Apparently not!

Even lovers of dachshunds freely acknowledge the breed's inclination towards possessiveness and irritability with children and strangers. Here's just one reference online, but there are tons of them, and it is really common knowledge.

http://www.dachworld.com/dispositiontemperament.htm

I dunno, I just don't get "I don't want to gamble on a mixed breed; let me buy a purebred dog that is more difficult with children than most." LOL :lmao:
I didn't say I didn't want a mixed breed. In fact I would have preferred a small mixed breed of known parentage. What I didn't want was a dog with a traumatic past I didn't know about. As for doxies being more difficult with children than most, my vet, who happens to have raised doxies for 20 plus years is another one who would disagree with you. She has 2 young children and says doxies are very good with kids when they have been raised with them. The only issues she has seen is with a dioxe who grew up in a house with one elderly lady who never took her out anywhere. That one old lady was the only person she ever saw, so she didn't care for the vet. My BIL is a vetrinary internist and we also consulted with him before purchasing a dog. He told us that doxies were a great breed in ahouse with kids. I trust thier judgment much more than some stranger on the internet. My bil is not gonig to suggest a breed that puts his niece at risk.

Melissa
03-30-2011, 07:36 PM
I was worried too we have a 9 month old Golden Doodle ( No shedding) found them online and it was great, it is a family they live on a farm and have lots of kids and do breeding for college money. I talked to the mom a lot and I felt good about it. I checked out their vet they used before hand too. Simon is the best 1200 dollars I ever spent. If you want their website Pm me I am not sure if I can post it here. They are in Kentucky.

dixonismydog
03-30-2011, 07:37 PM
ours is an English Cream. She is the sweetest girl ever and very good with kids. The whole neighborhood loves her.

I know right?! Dixon is our EC and he is adored wherever we go! The kids at school love when the weather is nice, so I can bring him after school for a visit! EC's rock...wish I could have more!

princessmom29
03-30-2011, 07:40 PM
I know right?! Dixon is our EC and he is adored wherever we go! The kids at school love when the weather is nice, so I can bring him after school for a visit! EC's rock...wish I could have more!
She gets a lot of attention wherever we go b/c they are not that common here. The first thing out of everyone's mouth is "is that a doxie", and then "can we pet her?" both answers are always yes. In my experience, they have a more laid back personality than other doxies. Our Bella is a lap dog if ever there was one.

EMom
03-30-2011, 07:46 PM
Pit bulls were once called the nanny dogs... they were war heros. Until the media and irresponsible owners painted such a negative picture of them...

Cocker Spaniels send more people to the hospital with bite wounds than pits do each year. Even fighting pits are bred so that in the middle of a bloody (disgusting) fight, a human can reach between and separate the dogs without being bit.

Please don't use pits as the example of a biting dog. That only ads to the problem many of us who know and understand the breed are trying to fight.

People who want a certain breed and want to go to a breeder for it but "don't care about breed standards" baffle me. It is clear you are not supporting a responsible breeder if don't even care about standards to the characteristics of that breed, is it not??

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Pit_Bull_with_baby_1892.jpg

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/7400000/Little-Rascals-Petey-pitbulls-7438783-340-460.jpg

Seriously? I know that makes all the pit-mauled people and animals feel better. :rolleyes1 Again, to some, it seems nothing is EVER a pit's fault. :sad2:

princessmom29
03-30-2011, 07:49 PM
Seriously? I know that makes all the pit-mauled people and animals feel better. :rolleyes1 Again, to some, it seems nothing is EVER a pit's fault. :sad2:
exactly.

Deb & Bill
03-30-2011, 07:59 PM
I don't think it is ridculous. To be honest. I just took a quick look on petfinder and most all of the breeds that came up are pitbulls I saw maybe one or two dogs there that i would recommend for a friend with kids to consider, most of them, no way.
They maybe sweet dogs, but I would not own a pitbullor a pit mix. To each there own.
To be fair I only looked at the first two pages go look yourself zip is 08840.

Off to dog handling class.

I put in your zip code and the first dog that shows up is a Chihuahua, then a dachshund, then a pug beagle mix, wheaten terrier, then another Chihuahua. True after those and especially the second page there were a few pit bulls or terriers of sorts. But they weren't the only dogs available. There were 443 pages of dogs in your zip code.

cnlmom
03-30-2011, 08:00 PM
well drat it all....I checked that zip in petfinder cause I could not believe all she saw was pits....and she is right at that particular shelter there seemed to be an abundance of them. It was listed as a municipal animal control...so they take in everything, they have to as a municipal shelter. However they also had several chis, a french bulldog, a dachie, a pug, several labs, a golden, a jrt, a cattle dog, a wheaten terrier and several other small to medium size mixes.

My point, is yes, there unfortunatly is an abundance of pits, chows, large mixes of various temperments at municipal animal controls, but there are also diamonds in the rough to super bright already perfect diamonds there as well. Animals that are wonderful, who through no fault of their own ended up there. People die, people move, people's lives change...there are a zillion reasons.

There are also thousands of grassroots type rescue groups such as the one I belong to who have many wonderful dogs of all sizes and breeds available. Check out zip code 28115 and look at the rescue with the word Lake in it...you will not see a pit in the bunch, although to be honest it is not our most glorious group at the moment. You can go and check out all our previously adopted animals to see what we have already saved.

I used to be a stand on my soapbox and yell my beliefs on animal rights to everyone, but found when I took a softer approach it worked better for me. People were willing to listen when I was less angry. Does not mean I am less angry, I just present myself differently.

No sense of yelling at someone who has obviously not neutered his dog....(although it is fun to yell out balls are for fetching....but I digress) offer info on the health benefits, tell them where to get neutering done at low cost, discuss how neutering reduces aggression, let the human men know it is not as tramatic as they think it will be. Plant a seed, educate, they might not want to today, but they may think about it and come back later.

There are numerous issues with large scale backyard breeders, petshops and puppy mills, dogs not healthy, not breed well, sketchy backrounds...yada yada yada...but the bottom line is the animals are NOT treated humanely in general. I am not talking about giving the silk pillows and designer biscuts. I mean basic needs such as food, water, and shelter are not met. They live in their own feces in tiny cages for their whole lives and dogs that come out of those situations have many issues. All that said, it is NOT THE DOGS fault...that is why I rescue.

A few pages ago the comment was made that if we rescue we in essence are supporting puppy mills. I want to say NONONONO we are not, and we are not directly. Puppy milll, petstore and large scale backyard breeders who do not sell their "stock" need to "cull" to make room for more puppies these animals either end up being disposed of by death or discarded in a shelter. Just like livestock needs to be culled when they are no longer producing. Not pleasant to think about, but is reality. When I rescue from the shelter I am doing it for the animal. The breeder, petshop or puppy mill has wrote it off as a loss so he has not "made money".

The only instance that I can see where rescue inadvertenly helps a bad breeder is when we take their culls....by this I mean a bad breeder has a bunch of older "used up" animals usually around age 5 or 6...they have been breed out, went crazy due to being crated, are sick, ...whatever. Rescuers doing what is best for an animal and having huge hearts will "rescue" these discards for the sake of the animals welfare. However the backlash of this is it just cleans out house for them to start "fresh". These situations are not frequent, but happen. The goal of course would be to have the law step in and put the bad breeder out of business, but this is difficult and time consuming to build a case.
Others will disagree this, but I have seen it happen. I stuggled with this exact situation. Ultimatly we took the "culls" because we had pity for them. Let Karma or whomever handle dealing with the bad breeder when he has to answer his/her maker.

I am not anti-breeder...I am a humanitarian and want to see all creatures treated with kindness and dignity...this is not what happens in many many many circumstances and it is well documented.

This is what riles up the feathers of rescuers and makes us so passonate.

There are good breeders out there that are caring people who love their breeds and take excellent care of their animals, but for every one of them there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of other people who are simply out to make a quick buck off the backs of a living creature. Sometimes their intentions are good, particulary in the case of the occassional breeder who just wants to "let their dog experience just a litter or two" and think it is win win cause in the process "we can make a few bucks". But these are not what I would call quality breeder level dogs.


In my other post I talked about how bad breeders trick or fool potential buyers. Just beware like anything else. Histories of animals can be created out of thin air, what you think are the puppies parents might not be in reality. Know that AKC does NOT regulate their breeders.

CinRell
03-30-2011, 08:15 PM
Seriously? I know that makes all the pit-mauled people and animals feel better. :rolleyes1 Again, to some, it seems nothing is EVER a pit's fault. :sad2:

I'm sure this statement makes all the people who own wonderful pits who are therapy dogs, loved family members, great dogs... don't blame the breed as a whole. More people kill people than pits... does that make all people murderers??

Sorry this is OT but the generalizations aren't fair... blame the deed, not the breed...

dixonismydog
03-30-2011, 08:20 PM
well drat it all....I checked that zip in petfinder cause I could not believe all she saw was pits....and she is right at that particular shelter there seemed to be an abundance of them. It was listed as a municipal animal control...so they take in everything, they have to as a municipal shelter. However they also had several chis, a french bulldog, a dachie, a pug, several labs, a golden, a jrt, a cattle dog, a wheaten terrier and several other small to medium size mixes.

My point, is yes, there unfortunatly is an abundance of pits, chows, large mixes of various temperments at municipal animal controls, but there are also diamonds in the rough to super bright already perfect diamonds there as well. Animals that are wonderful, who through no fault of their own ended up there. People die, people move, people's lives change...there are a zillion reasons.

There are also thousands of grassroots type rescue groups such as the one I belong to who have many wonderful dogs of all sizes and breeds available. Check out zip code 28115 and look at the rescue with the word Lake in it...you will not see a pit in the bunch, although to be honest it is not our most glorious group at the moment. You can go and check out all our previously adopted animals to see what we have already saved.

I used to be a stand on my soapbox and yell my beliefs on animal rights to everyone, but found when I took a softer approach it worked better for me. People were willing to listen when I was less angry. Does not mean I am less angry, I just present myself differently.

No sense of yelling at someone who has obviously not neutered his dog....(although it is fun to yell out balls are for fetching....but I digress) offer info on the health benefits, tell them where to get neutering done at low cost, discuss how neutering reduces aggression, let the human men know it is not as tramatic as they think it will be. Plant a seed, educate, they might not want to today, but they may think about it and come back later.

There are numerous issues with large scale backyard breeders, petshops and puppy mills, dogs not healthy, not breed well, sketchy backrounds...yada yada yada...but the bottom line is the animals are NOT treated humanely in general. I am not talking about giving the silk pillows and designer biscuts. I mean basic needs such as food, water, and shelter are not met. They live in their own feces in tiny cages for their whole lives and dogs that come out of those situations have many issues. All that said, it is NOT THE DOGS fault...that is why I rescue.

A few pages ago the comment was made that if we rescue we in essence are supporting puppy mills. I want to say NONONONO we are not, and we are not directly. Puppy milll, petstore and large scale backyard breeders who do not sell their "stock" need to "cull" to make room for more puppies these animals either end up being disposed of by death or discarded in a shelter. Just like livestock needs to be culled when they are no longer producing. Not pleasant to think about, but is reality. When I rescue from the shelter I am doing it for the animal. The breeder, petshop or puppy mill has wrote it off as a loss so he has not "made money".

The only instance that I can see where rescue inadvertenly helps a bad breeder is when we take their culls....by this I mean a bad breeder has a bunch of older "used up" animals usually around age 5 or 6...they have been breed out, went crazy due to being crated, are sick, ...whatever. Rescuers doing what is best for an animal and having huge hearts will "rescue" these discards for the sake of the animals welfare. However the backlash of this is it just cleans out house for them to start "fresh". These situations are not frequent, but happen. The goal of course would be to have the law step in and put the bad breeder out of business, but this is difficult and time consuming to build a case.
Others will disagree this, but I have seen it happen. I stuggled with this exact situation. Ultimatly we took the "culls" because we had pity for them. Let Karma or whomever handle dealing with the bad breeder when he has to answer his/her maker.

I am not anti-breeder...I am a humanitarian and want to see all creatures treated with kindness and dignity...this is not what happens in many many many circumstances and it is well documented.

This is what riles up the feathers of rescuers and makes us so passonate.

There are good breeders out there that are caring people who love their breeds and take excellent care of their animals, but for every one of them there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of other people who are simply out to make a quick buck off the backs of a living creature. Sometimes their intentions are good, particulary in the case of the occassional breeder who just wants to "let their dog experience just a litter or two" and think it is win win cause in the process "we can make a few bucks". But these are not what I would call quality breeder level dogs.


In my other post I talked about how bad breeders trick or fool potential buyers. Just beware like anything else. Histories of animals can be created out of thin air, what you think are the puppies parents might not be in reality. Know that AKC does NOT regulate their breeders.
:thumbsup2 Well said....I absolutley agree....and admire your passion and dedication to rescue! Kudos to you!;)

marie1203
03-30-2011, 09:40 PM
I am sorry but the argument that a shelter puppy is not as save as a breeder puppy is just a lie. You really do not know how that shelter dog was handle and you also do not know how the breeder puppy was handle unless you were there 100% of the time. There are dogs that come pregnant to the shelter and are handle with care and love since the begging so it is just an excuse. Especially in really young dogs. We have our own very small rescue and we have 5 dogs of our own. Three of them were rescue as puppies right before they were going to be put down (ages were 12 weeks -16 weeks ) it is such a short amount of time that really will not impact on the dog behavior unless it is a breeding problem. From that day they been socialize, train, etc and they are wonderful dogs. Most trainers will say there is not such a things as a bad dog just a bad dog owner or an owner that doesn't understand their dog (or genetic problems). I could understand the argument in adopting an older dog from the shelter but not a puppy. Our dogs range from 3 years to 6 and we never ever had a problem. They been around babies, kids, older people, other dogs, cats.

tammymacb
03-30-2011, 09:48 PM
I put in your zip code and the first dog that shows up is a Chihuahua, then a dachshund, then a pug beagle mix, wheaten terrier, then another Chihuahua. True after those and especially the second page there were a few pit bulls or terriers of sorts. But they weren't the only dogs available. There were 443 pages of dogs in your zip code.

But it's much easier on the conscience to say, "I can't adopt, all they have at the pound are pit bulls."

jodifla
03-30-2011, 11:08 PM
Yes, cockers have been overbred and can be nippy. The cocker puppy I got from a family breeder (oh, the horror!) never bit anyone in his 16 years; the cocker adult I got from a rescue was a snapper and actually bit my husband. I always had to worry when people were around her.

Do cockers bite, yes, but getting KILLED by one is exceedingly rare, like one report in 20 years. In 30 years in journalism, I've never written the headline, "Cocker spaniel kills child." I've written several pit bull headlines.....including ones where the people were killed. And there was a terrible case just last month: (not our story though)

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2011/02/infants_death_spurs_debate_on.html
Monday, February 21, 2011
KALAMAZOO — The death of a 10-day-old infant in Kalamazoo who was attacked by the family's pit bull terrier has added fuel to an ongoing debate about whether pit bulls are dangerous animals.





http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html

The deadliest dogs

Merritt Clifton, editor of Animal People, has conducted an unusually detailed study of dog bites from 1982 to the present. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006; click here to read it.) The Clifton study show the number of serious canine-inflicted injuries by breed. The author's observations about the breeds and generally how to deal with the dangerous dog problem are enlightening.

According to the Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes are responsible for 74% of attacks that were included in the study, 68% of the attacks upon children, 82% of the attacks upon adults, 65% of the deaths, and 68% of the maimings. In more than two-thirds of the cases included in the study, the life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous behavior by the animal in question. Clifton states:

If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, but will not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If a pit bull terrier or a Rottweiler has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed--and that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk, for which the dogs as well as their victims are paying the price.

jodifla
03-30-2011, 11:09 PM
I am sorry but the argument that a shelter puppy is not as save as a breeder puppy is just a lie. You really do not know how that shelter dog was handle and you also do not know how the breeder puppy was handle unless you were there 100% of the time. There are dogs that come pregnant to the shelter and are handle with care and love since the begging so it is just an excuse. Especially in really young dogs. We have our own very small rescue and we have 5 dogs of our own. Three of them were rescue as puppies right before they were going to be put down (ages were 12 weeks -16 weeks ) it is such a short amount of time that really will not impact on the dog behavior unless it is a breeding problem. From that day they been socialize, train, etc and they are wonderful dogs. Most trainers will say there is not such a things as a bad dog just a bad dog owner or an owner that doesn't understand their dog (or genetic problems). I could understand the argument in adopting an older dog from the shelter but not a puppy. Our dogs range from 3 years to 6 and we never ever had a problem. They been around babies, kids, older people, other dogs, cats.

A shelter puppy is likely as SAFE as a breeder puppy, because you can socialize them yourself, but you have ZERO medical history on them normally, so you can get a quite sick dog...straight out of one of those puppy mills.

jodifla
03-30-2011, 11:16 PM
I have to say. ( And I know the warning is coming ) that last statement was possibly the stupidest thing I've ever read on the Dis. And I've read some stupid things.


Completely, and totally uncalled for.

jodifla
03-30-2011, 11:23 PM
But do you not see the issue here? You're saying we should care about those issues, should care very much about them, but then should ignore them. Don't buy from backyard breeders! Their dogs are unhealthy! Unless you find one in a shelter, then they're fine! Don't buy a dog of unknown or nonstandard parentage because there's no telling what horrible things are hidden in its DNA! Unless you find it in a shelter, then it's fine! :confused3

exactly.

jodifla
03-30-2011, 11:37 PM
There's nothing about this thread that convinces me that it's a good idea for my family to use a rescue again (since we were lied to about age and health - and they want to give us a hard time about our child). It's clear from reading the responses that people who are so wrapped up in animals' care lose all their perspective.

Luckily, I've already found a good breeder for the type of dog we want when I was at the big dog show in town recently.

Swalphin
03-31-2011, 12:06 AM
I want to make it clear nobody here has convinced me to ever buy a dog. :goodvibes

If someone wants to pay thousands of dollars so be it. I know for myself I never would buy a dog and I certainly would never expect anyone to convince me otherwise. Why breed or buy while a shelter dog dies.

dixonismydog
03-31-2011, 12:48 AM
And there will be a point in my life, where I will only have a shelter dog as well. That won't be until my kids are much older, or out of the house. I then won't have the small kids around, that I do now. I just can't risk putting a shelter dog into a situation, where he will be uncomfortable enough to snap at someone.

We need to also remember, that as many horror stories as there are from puppy mills......like a PP said.....get your pet spayed or neutered. It's simple people. I will never understand these people, that think their females have to have "just one litter" of puppies. Like it's doing the dog some kind of favour?

I want to say too.....that I have had experience, with a stray dog in our family. Perhaps that is why I won't again, while the kids are young. We fostered a border collie (smart, beautiful, WONDERFUL dog)......until we could find him a home. He was very abused and negelected. We found out his story, after we had him for a couple of weeks. The Dad was in jail for spousal/child abuse....and the dog got some too, by his actions. Honestly funny thing is....he was excellent with the kids, it was my husband and I he had issues with. We found that out one day, when we were wrestling with the kids a bit. He thought we were hurting them, and bit both of us on the upper arms. He didn't even flinch. You could tell, he'd been in that situation before. He was doing what he thought he should....he was such a smart dog. SO......we found him a home with a guy in his early 20's, that was so eager to gain his trust and teach him life wasn't so scary.

cbg1027
03-31-2011, 02:14 AM
Just FYI folks.....16 pages in to the thread and haven't heard from OP since page 1....makes you wonder.

Also, I am confused by this post but it appears OP didn't care to read anyone's advice....so as I was inferring before......troll???

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2688961
See post #7

dixonismydog
03-31-2011, 08:41 AM
Just FYI folks.....16 pages in to the thread and haven't heard from OP since page 1....makes you wonder.

Also, I am confused by this post but it appears OP didn't care to read anyone's advice....so as I was inferring before......troll???

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2688961
See post #7

Hmmmmm.....yeah.....I have to agree....good catch. Has already purchased the puppy! I think we're smelling a troll.......;)

princessmom29
03-31-2011, 08:48 AM
I am sorry but the argument that a shelter puppy is not as save as a breeder puppy is just a lie. You really do not know how that shelter dog was handle and you also do not know how the breeder puppy was handle unless you were there 100% of the time. There are dogs that come pregnant to the shelter and are handle with care and love since the begging so it is just an excuse. Especially in really young dogs. We have our own very small rescue and we have 5 dogs of our own. Three of them were rescue as puppies right before they were going to be put down (ages were 12 weeks -16 weeks ) it is such a short amount of time that really will not impact on the dog behavior unless it is a breeding problem. From that day they been socialize, train, etc and they are wonderful dogs. Most trainers will say there is not such a things as a bad dog just a bad dog owner or an owner that doesn't understand their dog (or genetic problems). I could understand the argument in adopting an older dog from the shelter but not a puppy. Our dogs range from 3 years to 6 and we never ever had a problem. They been around babies, kids, older people, other dogs, cats.
Sorry, but that is not the whole story. Yes, a shelter puppy can be properly socalized for the beghinning, but you still don't know what kind of mental or physical defect is carried by the parents, grandperents ect. My BIL has had dogs come in the were shelter or puppy mill dogs who were fine the first couple of years and then suddenly turned on thier owners and because very aggressive, angry, ect. Iti s like a human with apasycotic break. It is common when some breeds are not bred carefully, most notably poodles, pareticularly full size. It can happen in any breed however, and the results can be catastrophic. One minute you have loving family pet and the next you have one that will bite anything that gets close to it. Sadly, there is nothing they can do but put the dog down.

jodifla
03-31-2011, 08:52 AM
I want to make it clear nobody here has convinced me to ever buy a dog. :goodvibes

If someone wants to pay thousands of dollars so be it. I know for myself I never would buy a dog and I certainly would never expect anyone to convince me otherwise. Why breed or buy while a shelter dog dies.

The shelter dogs around here certainly arent' free. They start at $300 and go up from there. For about twice the price, I can have a puppy from a reputable breeder and get exactly the right type of dog for my family.

When I was at the dog show recently, one of the biggest in the country, many people bred their dogs, and all of them have websites. It's not the website per se that's the issue. It's the homework you do to check out each breeder.

louey
03-31-2011, 09:02 AM
The shelter dogs around here certainly arent' free. They start at $300 and go up from there. For about twice the price, I can have a puppy from a reputable breeder and get exactly the right type of dog for my family.

When I was at the dog show recently, one of the biggest in the country, many people bred their dogs, and all of them have websites. It's not the website per se that's the issue. It's the homework you do to check out each breeder.

I posted about my puppymill rescue earlier in this post, and will say again that it is not cheap to vet a rescue. When you adopt they have been spay/neutered, teeth cleaned, chipped, and shots. In addition to all that she also had to have surgery on both her knees, this cost was absorbed by the rescue. So $300+ is not that much to add a furkid to your family JMO :)

tonilea
03-31-2011, 09:13 AM
Hmmmmm.....yeah.....I have to agree....good catch. Has already purchased the puppy! I think we're smelling a troll.......;)

Or.... maybe she/he had no idea the question would create a firestorm. Just because the person was a)overwhelmed, b)simply chose not to take some of the advice offered, or c)didn't want to be involved in the debate doesn't make them a troll.

The other post, by the OP, doesn't say if she adopted, purchase, found, or stole (just kidding!) the puppy.

jodifla
03-31-2011, 09:41 AM
I posted about my puppymill rescue earlier in this post, and will say again that it is not cheap to vet a rescue. When you adopt they have been spay/neutered, teeth cleaned, chipped, and shots. In addition to all that she also had to have surgery on both her knees, this cost was absorbed by the rescue. So $300+ is not that much to add a furkid to your family JMO :)



Actually, I do agree....I was just pointing out that shelter/rescue dogs aren't that much in different in price than the breeders I've been talking to.

marie1203
03-31-2011, 09:50 AM
A shelter puppy is likely as SAFE as a breeder puppy, because you can socialize them yourself, but you have ZERO medical history on them normally, so you can get a quite sick dog...straight out of one of those puppy mills.

That was not what was being said and shelters will often have the info if it comes from a puppy mill. There is plenty of mutt puppies out there that have higher chances to have less problems.

Swalphin
03-31-2011, 09:53 AM
The shelter dogs around here certainly arent' free. They start at $300 and go up from there. For about twice the price, I can have a puppy from a reputable breeder and get exactly the right type of dog for my family.

When I was at the dog show recently, one of the biggest in the country, many people bred their dogs, and all of them have websites. It's not the website per se that's the issue. It's the homework you do to check out each breeder.

Bringing a pet any pet into your home has a financial impact. I have never paid $300 for my rescues, cats or dogs. I live in a big city in the SE. There is one progam here if you adopt from a city/county shelter, there are hundreds of vets who partcipate, you are given a voucher for a subsatantial discount to getting the animal fixed and vaccintated if it has not already been done by the resuce. And if you do not get it done they will be knocking on your door, you have to send in proof within X amount of days. You and I are obviously from very different schools on this matter. I would never buy a dog. I have had wonderful pets with all of my rescues and I would not trade that for the world.

I do know people who have purchsed dogs one a King Charles the other a Golden. The Golden was a PK, that is a big deal breeder where I live, well you want to talk about $$$$$ on health issues. Sadly they did not live past 6 yrs of age. The King Charles also from a well known breeder cost $2500, and again health problems after health problems.

You obviously feel strongly about your beliefs as do I about mine, and that is fine.

marie1203
03-31-2011, 09:58 AM
Sorry, but that is not the whole story. Yes, a shelter puppy can be properly socalized for the beghinning, but you still don't know what kind of mental or physical defect is carried by the parents, grandperents ect. My BIL has had dogs come in the were shelter or puppy mill dogs who were fine the first couple of years and then suddenly turned on thier owners and because very aggressive, angry, ect. Iti s like a human with apasycotic break. It is common when some breeds are not bred carefully, most notably poodles, pareticularly full size. It can happen in any breed however, and the results can be catastrophic. One minute you have loving family pet and the next you have one that will bite anything that gets close to it. Sadly, there is nothing they can do but put the dog down.

This will be a very minimal amount of shelter puppies. You are more likely to get that behavior buying from and bad breeder/puppymills. Since there are so very few good breeders. Plenty of mutt puppies out there.