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DisneyAndRedSox
03-12-2011, 07:51 AM
I know this isn't a budget question (well, it does effect how much I pay for school next year...), but I know there are a lot of legal savvy folks on here.

My district had a lottery for full-day kindergarten, of couse DD didn't get in and I am very upset. In our town there were 47 applicants and 40 slots. Instead of pulling 40 names out of the fish bowl (yes it was open to the public), they had 2 bowls- girls and boys. There were 26 girls for 20 slots and 21 boys for 20 slots. SO- girls had a 76.9% chance of getting in, boys 95.2% chance. And the waiting list goes by gender also, so if a boy drops, the first boy gets in. I feel this is extremely unfair. On the lottery application form it says:

The XXX School District does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, sex, religion, age, national origin, sexual orientation or disability, in the operation of the educational programs, activities, or employment policies, and no person will be excluded from or discriminated against in admission to its public schools, or in obtaining the advantages, privileges, and courses of study of such public schools on account of race, color, sex, religion, age, national origin, sexual orientation, or disability.

Also- the district has nothing in writing on the website on how the lottery is to be conducted (i.e. boys and girls separated) and how the waiting list works (i.e. if a 2nd boy drops out, will it then go to the girl's list since there is only 1 boy on it?) It is pretty expensive, first installment due in 2 weeks so it is possible she could get in soon if anyone fails to pay.

We are going to the school committee meeting this week and are thinking of contacting an attorney. Yes I am bitter she didn't get in, but I have a hard time accepting it because I feel the girls were at a disadvantage. I would love to hear if anyone thinks I have a leg to stand on or if it is worth contacting an attorney.

BTW- one other school in the district was lop-sided even worse, mostly boys on the waiting list.

Cheshire Figment
03-12-2011, 08:00 AM
You might want to ask an attorney for advice, but do not let the School Boasrd know you have consulted one. I once found out, the hard way, that once the people I was talking to knew I had an attorney involved they would not talk to me at all unless the attornery was present.

Personally I would point out to them that they were not following their published rules, that you feel that because of the way it was handled there is discrimination based on sex, and that not following their published rules could lead to the expenses of a discrimination lawsuit.

Jedimom
03-12-2011, 08:04 AM
I can't see how you don't have a case. Wow.

DisneyAndRedSox
03-12-2011, 08:04 AM
Thank you C.F.- I knew you would respond and always have the best advice! :hug:

jgreco
03-12-2011, 08:32 AM
Somewhat related, somewhat not.

Our local Gold's Gym had a "Biggest Loser" contest. There was a separate contest for girls and guys 1st, 2nd, 3rd place with thousands of dollars in prizes. It cost $50 to enter.

I figured what the heck, could use all the motivation I could use. Hired one of their personal trainers for 3 months 3x's a week and joined weight watchers.

At the end (90 days later), I was informed that due to "lack of interest, they changed it to just coed, AND 1st, 2nd, 3rd place were all male winners.

They made the mistake of telling me I was #1 for the women. So my wheel spins in my head and tells me if they had stuck to the damn rules, I literally would have gotten about $3k in prizes, 3rd place alone was a free year of membership.

After freaking out on them. I could only weasel 6 months free, which in the end I found out they just extended my contract and suspended my billing for 6 months. I am still PO'd about it, but there was nothing I could do since the "rules" were nowhere to be found after the fact. I did at least lose more weight than I normally would have so I guess I got something out of it!

dakcp2001
03-12-2011, 08:43 AM
Sounds like your going to make a big stink and still get no result. Your daughter didn't get picked. If you sue, I think it will prob take so long to resolve it is not going to help this year anyway. I do agree that the way they did it seems pretty unfair and I would be ticked too. I just think you'd spend a lot of money on a lawyer and end up with the same end result. You would prob help kids next year though. I mean what are the odds that they would redraw for this year? Or squeeze her in? Either way it would still end up being unfair to someone.

They should have just picked from one bowl.

dakcp2001
03-12-2011, 08:46 AM
Somewhat related, somewhat not.

Our local Gold's Gym had a "Biggest Loser" contest. There was a separate contest for girls and guys 1st, 2nd, 3rd place with thousands of dollars in prizes. It cost $50 to enter.

I figured what the heck, could use all the motivation I could use. Hired one of their personal trainers for 3 months 3x's a week and joined weight watchers.

At the end (90 days later), I was informed that due to "lack of interest, they changed it to just coed, AND 1st, 2nd, 3rd place were all male winners.

They made the mistake of telling me I was #1 for the women. So my wheel spins in my head and tells me if they had stuck to the damn rules, I literally would have gotten about $3k in prizes, 3rd place alone was a free year of membership.

After freaking out on them. I could only weasel 6 months free, which in the end I found out they just extended my contract and suspended my billing for 6 months. I am still PO'd about it, but there was nothing I could do since the "rules" were nowhere to be found after the fact. I did at least lose more weight than I normally would have so I guess I got something out of it!

Now THIS would infuriate me. Might be worth $150 bucks to have a lawyer draft a letter to corporate. They totally stiffed you.

MM27
03-12-2011, 09:10 AM
would you be seeking legal advice if your child got picked?

I don't see it as discriminating against males or females because they both have the opportunity to be in the lottery. It seems like they were trying to avoid top heavy classes of girls or boys so they are taking half boys and half girls.

Marionnette
03-12-2011, 09:14 AM
I know this isn't a budget question (well, it does effect how much I pay for school next year...), but I know there are a lot of legal savvy folks on here.

My district had a lottery for full-day kindergarten, of couse DD didn't get in and I am very upset. In our town there were 47 applicants and 40 slots. Instead of pulling 40 names out of the fish bowl (yes it was open to the public), they had 2 bowls- girls and boys. There were 26 girls for 20 slots and 21 boys for 20 slots. SO- girls had a 76.9% chance of getting in, boys 95.2% chance. And the waiting list goes by gender also, so if a boy drops, the first boy gets in. I feel this is extremely unfair. On the lottery application form it says:

The XXX School District does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, sex, religion, age, national origin, sexual orientation or disability, in the operation of the educational programs, activities, or employment policies, and no person will be excluded from or discriminated against in admission to its public schools, or in obtaining the advantages, privileges, and courses of study of such public schools on account of race, color, sex, religion, age, national origin, sexual orientation, or disability.

Also- the district has nothing in writing on the website on how the lottery is to be conducted (i.e. boys and girls separated) and how the waiting list works (i.e. if a 2nd boy drops out, will it then go to the girl's list since there is only 1 boy on it?) It is pretty expensive, first installment due in 2 weeks so it is possible she could get in soon if anyone fails to pay.

We are going to the school committee meeting this week and are thinking of contacting an attorney. Yes I am bitter she didn't get in, but I have a hard time accepting it because I feel the girls were at a disadvantage. I would love to hear if anyone thinks I have a leg to stand on or if it is worth contacting an attorney.

BTW- one other school in the district was lop-sided even worse, mostly boys on the waiting list.

I'm sorry that you didn't get the full day K that you wanted. Face it, seven parents were going to be disappointed in this situation. You happen to be one of them. Along with the parents of 5 other girls and one boy. I don't see a case of sex discrimination here unless the school is outright denying little girls a chance at being in ANY kindergarten class at all.

The gender makeup of those applicants was 55% female and 45% male. So by your reasoning, 22 girls and 18 boys should have gotten into this class. What if all the names had been in a single bowl and all 21 of the boys had gotten in? Would you still be upset? What if all 26 girls got in and only 14 of the boys were picked? Would you feel that the boys were being under-represented?

I think that getting a lawyer would be a waste of money. You will spend more cash tilting at this one windmill than you will spend on private full day K. And you will certainly get the reputation among the administrators and teachers as one of "those" parents. I think that you should to go to the meeting and suggest that perhaps the lottery should be more random without taking gender into consideration. You may find that there is a very good reason why they do it this way. And you will avoid any ill feelings that the threat of a lawsuit can bring.

MommaSnowwhite
03-12-2011, 09:24 AM
I think I would just drop it. I'm sure they picked names by gender so they would have a class that was too boy heavy or girl heavy. It really doesn't seem to be discrimination to me.

ancestry
03-12-2011, 09:29 AM
I don't think you have a case. Colleges do this all the time. They all have statements that they don't discriminate based on sex, religion, race, etc. BUT those characteristics are a basis for their admission process in order that they may have a diversified student base.

I don't know the legalities behind it. But I'm guessing if colleges do this all the time then there must be a legal basis for being able to do it. For example, a woman applying to a male dominated field at a university stands a greater chance of being accepted than another male applying to the same program. Same in reverse. Same thing with race -- minorities are often given preference over non-minorities.

NiftyJ88
03-12-2011, 09:37 AM
You could end up with a lot of enemies out of this. So you get a lawyer, somehow win (which is not probable) and your child is forever tagged as the "lawsuit child" and will have teachers on edge for the next 13 years of education.
If you take your school to court, not only will it be a public spectacle, but it's possible that your community will also turn against you because their taxes may be affected.
Think about it this way. If those were the rules from the start, 20 girls and 20 boys and your daughter didn't get picked...would you still be willing to get a lawyer? Or, if your daughter was picked from this same set of rules, would you be upset?
Think very carefully about the people who might be affected by your actions. Just my 2 cents.

tinker&belle
03-12-2011, 09:41 AM
Most early education classrooms try to balence boys and girls, this is nothing new, you just were party to see which children were chosen. I don't think you will get anywhere and you will have to deal with the school district for the next several years. I wouldn't mess with it.

southern_redhead
03-12-2011, 10:02 AM
I can't address the all day kindergarten thing - we have one choice - all day for K students, they did away with "optional" half days decades ago. Anyway, we go 180 full days a year and it is part of the free public school system. So....all I can speak to is the 20 girls/20 boys. I know that our school, at least, tries to put an equal number of boys and girls into each class. It isn't always possible, of course, but our principal tries really, really hard to do this as much as possible. Of course, as they progress through the grades she doesn't stress it as much and you have the "original" group for the grade moving/new kids moving in which will affect the balance but.....I think this may be why they did a 20/20 drawing. So, in the end, they would argue it was to provide a beneficial classroom enviroment and not that they were simply trying to skew the odds for the girls. I don't see how it is unfair to girls except that more girls applied for the same number of spots than did boys....that's just life, things will be "unfair" more often than not.

I would be upset, too, but now I think you probably need to be looking at finding another option for her. I'm sorry it didn't work out as you'd hoped. I can't imagine having a lottery for K. Our pre-K works on a similar system, I guess. First they rank them by income and the poorest qualify first. After that, it is first come first serve until they fill their 20 spots. It has gotten VERY sought after because it is also free.

Lewisc
03-12-2011, 10:06 AM
A better question is if a district should offer full time K if they don't have enough money to offer it to all eligible kids.

We wouldn't be having this discussion if the district wanted to have a seperate lottery for blacks, hispanics or any other protected group.

Of course it's wrong. The school population for that age group isn't half girl half boy so why should the class be 50-50. That's assigning you can legally balance the number of boys and girls in the class.

I'd go the committee meeting. Tell them you think it's wrong. Ask how the school attorney was able to reconcile this procedure with the policy.

I wouldn't get an attorney. I guess you could file a discrimination complaint.

cats mom
03-12-2011, 10:06 AM
There were 20 spots available for boys and 20 spots available for girls. How is that discrimination? :confused3

mdsoccermom
03-12-2011, 10:17 AM
And what would you like to accomplish? That they change their mind and your daughter gets in, while an accepted kid gets their admission revoked?

I really don't see the discrimination here. Both boys and girls were eligible to apply. They had 20 slots for girls, and 20 were picked. 20 slots for boys, and 20 were picked.

Lewisc
03-12-2011, 10:27 AM
There were 20 spots available for boys and 20 spots available for girls. How is that discrimination? :confused3

Boys had a 95% chance of getting admitted and girls only had a 76% chance. There are more girls then boys in the district yet the slots were allocated 50-50. How is that not discrimination?:confused3:confused3

Marionnette
03-12-2011, 10:34 AM
Boys had a 95% chance of getting admitted and girls only had a 76% chance. There are more girls then boys in the district yet the slots were allocated 50-50. How is that not discrimination?:confused3:confused3
You are making the assumption that there are more girls in K in the district than there are boys. That's not true. The OP pointed out that the situation is reversed in another school in the same district.

In addition, you are making the assumption that the ratio of boys to girls in this small subset of students is reflective of the total kindergarten population. This lottery was only held for those who wanted to put their children in all day K. As long as the district is providing K in some form to all of the students, then they are not discriminating against the girls in one school or the boys in the other school.

MrsPete
03-12-2011, 10:42 AM
It's bad luck, no question about it. But it is nothing but luck. It could've been that only 15 girls were born the same year as your daughter, and you could've been on the other side of the luck.

There is value in gender-balancing the class, and that's what the school was going for.

I agree with the others who say put your money towards private kindergarten rather than get yourself (and your daughter) as "those people". This is especially true right now when school systems are being forced to cut back so drastically; you can force them to fight you in court, but it'll take money from the classrooms -- and the school will remember that.

MomRN
03-12-2011, 10:44 AM
I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. It sucks, yes, but it's just not worth the headache in the long run.

msmayor
03-12-2011, 11:00 AM
Boys had a 95% chance of getting admitted and girls only had a 76% chance. There are more girls then boys in the district yet the slots were allocated 50-50. How is that not discrimination?:confused3:confused3

Except that this doesn't seem to be a situation where EVERYONE in the district participated in the lottery.

Within the OP's original post, its mentioned that there is tuition that must be paid:

Also- the district has nothing in writing on the website on how the lottery is to be conducted (i.e. boys and girls separated) and how the waiting list works (i.e. if a 2nd boy drops out, will it then go to the girl's list since there is only 1 boy on it?) It is pretty expensive, first installment due in 2 weeks so it is possible she could get in soon if anyone fails to pay.


This implies that this was a choice by parents whether to send their child to this particular kindergarten (kindergarten attendance is often not mandated by the state and required to be offered; many districts will offer it but with a tuition that must be paid).

Its not the boys' fault that not as many chose to participate. The district said they'd give 20 boys and 20 girls slots, which is actually pretty fair in my mind. The fact that more girls chose to participate in the lottery shouldn't affect the 'boys side' of the equation.

wtccheermom
03-12-2011, 11:05 AM
Obviously if you have extra money for lawyer fees than you can just pay for her to attend a private Kindergarten because either way you will be out money and well I really donít think you have a leg to stand on.

cats mom
03-12-2011, 11:08 AM
Boys had a 95% chance of getting admitted and girls only had a 76% chance. There are more girls then boys in the district yet the slots were allocated 50-50. How is that not discrimination?:confused3:confused3


I just don't see any basis for a discrimination claim here. The odds are sometimes stacked against you, that's life.

As someone else posted, if the OP lawyers up, by the time anything is ever resolved her DD will be long out of kindergarten.

Maybe by just threatening they'll somehow find a spot for her DD, although I doubt it. But she will definitely get a reputation early on.

I'm not opposed to fighting the system when there's a case to be made, I've done it myself. But I think you have to pick your battles and this certainly wouldn't be one I'd take on.

Lewisc
03-12-2011, 11:25 AM
http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/complaintintro.html

File a complaint with the department of education. Let them decide if this is a case of discrimination that's illegal. If so let them tell the district what to do.

I wouldn't pay for an attorney.

Discrimination laws are suppose to stop the odds from being stacked against someone.

Does anyone think it would be legal if a separate lottery was held for blacks and whites?
The same discrimination laws apply

bumbershoot
03-12-2011, 11:49 AM
Boys had a 95% chance of getting admitted and girls only had a 76% chance. There are more girls then boys in the district yet the slots were allocated 50-50. How is that not discrimination?:confused3:confused3

And if they'd done it without making it half and half, the GIRLS would have had the advantage in sheer numbers.

So now we get a boy's mom posting that it was unfair and we'd have people supporting that side because to not even it out is inherently wrong.

Planogirl
03-12-2011, 11:56 AM
They could have just thrown everyone's name into the same bucket too. But then you'd have people mad if too many of one side would have been chosen.

familyoffive
03-12-2011, 12:04 PM
So if the OP doesn't get her way, she will sue? Exactly why isn't this bullying?
This is for Kindergarten? What happens when she doesn't make first chair in the orchestra, the lead in the school musical, the school soccer team, class president, prom queen, etc.? There was a limited number of slots, the school balanced the class to an equal ratio of boys and girls, what next : uneven ratio of left handed and right handed students? We all don't always get our own way and starting an issue with Kindergarten just will label you as a problem parent. That is not what you want to do for your child. Find a before/after school program to make up for the class time that you believe your daughter won't be getting and use the money you would paid an attorney to pay for the added class time.

Marionnette
03-12-2011, 12:08 PM
http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/complaintintro.html

File a complaint with the department of education. Let them decide if this is a case of discrimination that's illegal. If so let them tell the district what to do.

I wouldn't pay for an attorney.

Discrimination laws are suppose to stop the odds from being stacked against someone.

Does anyone think it would be legal if a separate lottery was held for blacks and whites?
The same discrimination laws apply
Nice straw man argument to advance your point.

There is no concerted effort on the part of the school district to deny little girls access to kindergarten. You are totally ignoring the fact that another school in the same district ended up with a large number of little boys on their waitlist.

KayW
03-12-2011, 12:12 PM
I went through a full day kindergarten lottery last year. 18 girls 18 boys. My DD did get in. By Sept. they decided to make it 20 and 20. It is heartbreaking sitting there. Where on the wait list is your DD? Many of the students who get picked do not do the full day and then there is the chance that your DD will get in. Plus they may add spots.

Mama Who
03-12-2011, 12:21 PM
Boys had a 95% chance of getting admitted and girls only had a 76% chance. There are more girls then boys in the district yet the slots were allocated 50-50. How is that not discrimination?:confused3:confused3

Not necessarily. More girls wanted this class than boys, that does not translate to there being more girls in the district.

OP, if you raise a legal ruckus, what will be your goal? A new lottery or a spot for your kid? Is this really about being fair (in which case you're fighting to take a chance of STILL not getting in) or is it about insisting that your kid get a limited resource instead of someone else's? Think carefully about your motive before proceeding.

SaraJayne
03-12-2011, 01:10 PM
You don't have a leg to stand on. I'm guessing you wouldn't be crying "discrimination" and "it's not fair!" if your DD got in, would you? :rolleyes1

If you want to be labeled "that parent" in K, go ahead and sue and see what happens. :)

DVCBELLE
03-12-2011, 01:16 PM
If they had put everyone's name in one bowl - they could have pulled all 21 boys names and only 19 girls. Or what if 25 boys had applied and 27 girls and 25 boys got in and only 15 girls. Or even worse - 40 boys and 40 girls apply - 40 boys get picked. Likely no - but possible.

The district needs a fair way to have even classes. This was the best way to do it. Depending on how you look at it - this guarantees euqal opportunity for boys and girls - 20 slots for each.

DVCBELLE
03-12-2011, 01:18 PM
You don't have a leg to stand on. I'm guessing you wouldn't be crying "discrimination" and "it's not fair!" if your DD got in, would you? :rolleyes1

If you want to be labeled "that parent" in K, go ahead and sue and see what happens. :)
I agree - you don't want to be "that" parent and believe me everyone always knows who "that" parent is!

DisneyAndRedSox
03-12-2011, 01:56 PM
And if they'd done it without making it half and half, the GIRLS would have had the advantage in sheer numbers. No... every child in the lottery would have had an equal chance.

I just found out this issue has been raised in the past. I have decided to go to the school committee meeting and let them know that I feel this is unfair. I don't plan on contacting a lawyer or raising a stink, but I think going forward it should be changed and I plan on voicing my opinion. Once the kids are in 1st - 12th, there is no lottery for classes and they balance it out the best they can. They also have 1/2 day kindergarten classes and don't have a perfect 50/50 pool of kids when deciding the classes. As for the classrooms being gender balanced, well there is now a 1/2 day kindergarten class that may have 6 more girls in it- so much for being balanced! :confused3

And no, I am not the type of parent to complain if my kid isn't chosen for something- but if she doesn't have a fair chance you can bet I will complain; and as she gets older if she feels something isn't fair she should stand-up for herself.

Tink888
03-12-2011, 02:19 PM
I don't think you have a leg to stand on. The school offered up an equal number of slots for both boys and girls......probably so as not to discriminate.

They have no control over how many applicants of each sex they will get.

How much money would you have saved if you had won the lottery? How much money are you prepared to spend, in addition to the tuition that you must now pay, to take a chance on having the decision reversed?

Not to mention the money the school will be forced to pay in legal fees defending the action. Money which could be spent on educating the students.

How long do you plan on being in this district? If it's long term, another question you need to ask yourself is whether or not the lottery is worth the reputation you'll earn as a difficult parent and if you really want that reputation to follow your child. Because it will.

Sometime you win, sometimes you lose. Just part of life.

mdsoccermom
03-12-2011, 03:23 PM
No... every child in the lottery would have had an equal chance.

I just found out this issue has been raised in the past. I have decided to go to the school committee meeting and let them know that I feel this is unfair. I don't plan on contacting a lawyer or raising a stink, but I think going forward it should be changed and I plan on voicing my opinion. Once the kids are in 1st - 12th, there is no lottery for classes and they balance it out the best they can. They also have 1/2 day kindergarten classes and don't have a perfect 50/50 pool of kids when deciding the classes. As for the classrooms being gender balanced, well there is now a 1/2 day kindergarten class that may have 6 more girls in it- so much for being balanced! :confused3

And no, I am not the type of parent to complain if my kid isn't chosen for something- but if she doesn't have a fair chance you can bet I will complain; and as she gets older if she feels something isn't fair she should stand-up for herself.

Just curious. Had your child gotten in and a different girl rejected, would you complain? Or is it only unfair because you didn't get your way?

Marionnette
03-12-2011, 03:31 PM
No... every child in the lottery would have had an equal chance.

I just found out this issue has been raised in the past. I have decided to go to the school committee meeting and let them know that I feel this is unfair. I don't plan on contacting a lawyer or raising a stink, but I think going forward it should be changed and I plan on voicing my opinion. Once the kids are in 1st - 12th, there is no lottery for classes and they balance it out the best they can. They also have 1/2 day kindergarten classes and don't have a perfect 50/50 pool of kids when deciding the classes. As for the classrooms being gender balanced, well there is now a 1/2 day kindergarten class that may have 6 more girls in it- so much for being balanced! :confused3

And no, I am not the type of parent to complain if my kid isn't chosen for something- but if she doesn't have a fair chance you can bet I will complain; and as she gets older if she feels something isn't fair she should stand-up for herself.
Those "6 more girls" were always part of the kindergarten population at that school. They aren't additional girls. Even if the lottery had been done from a single pool and the gender breakdown had been a true reflection of the girl/boy ratio, there still would have been 4 girls who didn't get into full day K. They still would have had to be integrated into half day K classes. And the school would do their best to gender balance those half day classes so that there wouldn't be 6 more princesses than princes in a single classroom.

SaraJayne
03-12-2011, 03:41 PM
Just curious. Had your child gotten in and a different girl rejected, would you complain? Or is it only unfair because you didn't get your way?


It's only unfair because her DD didn't get picked in the lottery. :) Like I said, if DD had gotten picked, no one would have heard a word about it.

GinnyEmma
03-12-2011, 04:15 PM
It's only unfair because her DD didn't get picked in the lottery. :) Like I said, if DD had gotten picked, no one would have heard a word about it.

No kidding. Suck it up and realize that you don't always get what you want. And we wonder where the snowflakes come from.

mrsklamc
03-12-2011, 04:48 PM
Did you ask why they did it that way?

gatormom2tots
03-12-2011, 05:29 PM
Just asked my husband who is an attorney.....he said you probably do not have a case.

ilovefh
03-12-2011, 06:14 PM
I think I'd tread lightly on this one. There were an equal number of spots for both boys and girls.

I'd be careful because if you do contact a lawyer and sue you will become known as "that" parent.

Remember teachers and administrators are human too and they will remember this. I had a parent put up a huge stink that her daughter did not make the "A" team in 7th grade. She was not justified and her daughter remained on the "B" team. After her 7th grade year I moved up to be the high school coach and I did remember her temper tantrum for the rest of her daughter's field hockey career.

mousefan1972
03-12-2011, 06:32 PM
OP, I know exactly how you feel. Last spring we entered DS in our town's lottery for full day kindergarten. 24 kids applied for 20 slots. Our town does the same boy/girl even split. 11 boys applied and 13 girls. Guess who's kid was the 1 boy who didn't get picked? :rolleyes1 Yup, mine. But, all was not lost as several parents backed out, and my son got off the waitlist 2 days after I was told he didn't make it. In fact, so many backed out that the school was recruiting more kids for the class a few weeks before school started. I really think some parents just put their kid in the lottery, without realizing the cost involved ($3800 for the year), then once they are picked they say "Wow, too much money" and drop out. I hope your child gets in.... good luck! :goodvibes

mousefan1972
03-12-2011, 06:36 PM
Oh, and just wanted to add that the gender equality thing is only enforced in the full day kindergarten program. My daughter did the half day program (same school) and there were 12 girls and 5 boys in her class. This year, in second grade, she has 16 girls and 6 boys in her class. So why the school insists on the full day K class being evenly split by gender, I have no idea...

KayW
03-13-2011, 05:12 AM
Oh, and just wanted to add that the gender equality thing is only enforced in the full day kindergarten program. My daughter did the half day program (same school) and there were 12 girls and 5 boys in her class. This year, in second grade, she has 16 girls and 6 boys in her class. So why the school insists on the full day K class being evenly split by gender, I have no idea...

For the discrimination piece probably. That way there are equal slots because it is a lottery. It is painful to sit there and really want to get in, but don't especially if you can pay for it, you feel or know your child will benefit from full day.

Even at the middle school level I have classes where there are 24 students, but not an even split of 12 and 12.

mousefan1972
03-13-2011, 05:26 PM
For the discrimination piece probably. That way there are equal slots because it is a lottery. It is painful to sit there and really want to get in, but don't especially if you can pay for it, you feel or know your child will benefit from full day.

Even at the middle school level I have classes where there are 24 students, but not an even split of 12 and 12.

Oh believe me, we were very upset when our son wasn't chosen. Our daughter was in the half day program 2 years earlier, and in 1st grade she was noticeably behind the kids who had been in the full day K program. Also I work full time, so for schedule reasons we really needed him to be in full day K. Luckily he did end up getting in, and he loves it. Writing the tuition check every month stinks, but it is well worth it.

mrsklamc
03-13-2011, 05:40 PM
I just wonder why we always have to jump to the legal option, instead of going to someone at the level where the decision is made, and saying, "I'm hoping you can help me. This doesn't make sense to me. Can you help me understand?"

andymattmom
03-13-2011, 05:53 PM
I would just leave it! You are going to make a stink and as others have said be labeled for the ENTIRE TIME your child(ren) are in that school! Teachers know exactly what parents complain, whine and raise fusses. Same goes for administration.

Just put your big mom pants on...things happen for a reason. It might be hard to accept now but it is not the end of the world. Your daughter can go to school someplace else, someone could drop out and they could put her in, etc. Just leave it....

andymattmom
03-13-2011, 05:57 PM
I just wonder why we always have to jump to the legal option, instead of going to someone at the level where the decision is made, and saying, "I'm hoping you can help me. This doesn't make sense to me. Can you help me understand?"

Cause we are a sue happy country and everyone thinks they are special and when things don't go their way they cry FOUL! People park in a handicap spot, get towed and sue for the towing fees. People break up with their boyfriend or girlfriend and sue for harassment and sue. People don't get their way and think injustice has been done and sue. People always think something terrible has been done to them....

Just an opinion. Totally agree with you...people use the threat of legal system far to often.

mousefan1972
03-13-2011, 06:11 PM
Cause we are a sue happy country and everyone thinks they are special and when things don't go their way they cry FOUL! People park in a handicap spot, get towed and sue for the towing fees. People break up with their boyfriend or girlfriend and sue for harassment and sue. People don't get their way and think injustice has been done and sue. People always think something terrible has been done to them....

Just an opinion. Totally agree with you...people use the threat of legal system far to often.

Nah, not everyone. ;) When my son didn't get chosen in our full day K lottery last spring, I was very disappointed and upset. But, it never occurred to me to consider a lawsuit. I just don't think that way. (no offense intended to the OP) I did think, "Just our luck...." Not everyone can get their way.

KayW
03-13-2011, 06:20 PM
And the child could still get into the full day class if someone decides not to enroll their child. It happens. Not everyone is ready to shell out the money for the program.

knewton64
03-13-2011, 06:41 PM
After a lot of thought, I agree....


Put on your Mom pants....


Move forward.....


and plan your next trip to a DiSney PArk:goodvibes.




Seriously - have fun and enjoy life:goodvibes.




Kris

mytripsandraces
03-13-2011, 06:45 PM
Somewhat related, somewhat not.

Our local Gold's Gym had a "Biggest Loser" contest. There was a separate contest for girls and guys 1st, 2nd, 3rd place with thousands of dollars in prizes. It cost $50 to enter.

I figured what the heck, could use all the motivation I could use. Hired one of their personal trainers for 3 months 3x's a week and joined weight watchers.

At the end (90 days later), I was informed that due to "lack of interest, they changed it to just coed, AND 1st, 2nd, 3rd place were all male winners.

They made the mistake of telling me I was #1 for the women. So my wheel spins in my head and tells me if they had stuck to the damn rules, I literally would have gotten about $3k in prizes, 3rd place alone was a free year of membership.

After freaking out on them. I could only weasel 6 months free, which in the end I found out they just extended my contract and suspended my billing for 6 months. I am still PO'd about it, but there was nothing I could do since the "rules" were nowhere to be found after the fact. I did at least lose more weight than I normally would have so I guess I got something out of it!

You might have a case. Contests are governed by very strict rules. You should contact corporate, not the local gym. I believe they have to keep the rules on file for a certain period of time, too.

Ciciwoowoo
03-13-2011, 07:13 PM
The school districts around here have all gone to all day kindergarten because if they did not, they would lose the families who were interested in the program to the neighboring district. The districts in my area all have "school of choice" programs.

I would investigate enrolling your child in a neighboring district. The money they might lose through your family, and any additional families who also leave due to this matter, might make it worthwhile for the district to investigate expanding this program.

Do you have charter schools in your area? That might be another option for you and your family.

I hate to say it, but money talks... the schools will practically bend over backward to avoid losing revenue. If you could talk to the other families who did not make this program and get them all to agree to investigate alternatives, the district might just listen to your group.

I do hope things work out well. I have heard nothing but positive things about the full day kindergarten programs. The children are more advanced than their half day friends.

Marionnette
03-13-2011, 08:00 PM
The school districts around here have all gone to all day kindergarten because if they did not, they would lose the families who were interested in the program to the neighboring district. The districts in my area all have "school of choice" programs.

I would investigate enrolling your child in a neighboring district. The money they might lose through your family, and any additional families who also leave due to this matter, might make it worthwhile for the district to investigate expanding this program.

Do you have charter schools in your area? That might be another option for you and your family.

I hate to say it, but money talks... the schools will practically bend over backward to avoid losing revenue. If you could talk to the other families who did not make this program and get them all to agree to investigate alternatives, the district might just listen to your group.

I do hope things work out well. I have heard nothing but positive things about the full day kindergarten programs. The children are more advanced than their half day friends.
Not every state operates their educational system like Michigan. Around here, you attend the schools in your district or else you pay to attend elsewhere.

I think that my school district officials would do somersaults if parents told them that they didn't like half-day K and want to go elsewhere. The more parents who do that, the fewer kindergarten teachers we have to hire, the fewer K classrooms we have to furnish, the fewer K students we have to transport. All meaning that our district saves money.

And while kids that attend full day K usually are more advanced in first grade than their half day classmates, studies have shown that the edge is pretty much erased by the third grade. At that point, the half day kids have caught up and the gifted ones even surpass the average full day kids.
http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/12146.html

hambirg
03-13-2011, 09:01 PM
What I find really ironic is that there is no educational justification for having equal gender slots in a classroom. Our disctict just had a speaker come in and talk about the benefits of separate gender classrooms. So this disctrict's justification for being "fair" is to weight the stats against the girl applicants? If they truly wanted to be fair they would have put all the names in a hat and pulled for the 40 slots. At least every child would have been given equal opportunity. The way I see it, they weighted the stats against the girls in order to have a more "fair" classroom make-up. That makes no sense. . .there are no educational advantages to having a classroom with equal gender, in fact, the research actually supports the opposite. So why try to do it in the first place? :confused3

ETA: Just to illuminate my point. Let's say 20 boys applied and 100 girls. So the boys have a 100% chance of getting in and the girls only 25% chance? How is that fair? If they truly want to be fair they put all the names in the hat and pull for the slots. . .and the laws of statistics takes care of the rest.

disfan07
03-14-2011, 12:26 AM
This is just another case of a parent who thinks that her child deserves it more then another child. If her child had gotten picked she wouldn't have even thought about this and she wouldn't care. She just would have been glad that her child got in and that would be that.

So it's not that she really CARES that they did it that way. She just cares because her child was one of the ones who did not get picked.

We just like to sue over everything. Why don't we save the legal issues and the lawsuits for things that really matter and that are really important?

buzz5985
03-14-2011, 01:32 AM
I think I'd tread lightly on this one. There were an equal number of spots for both boys and girls.

I'd be careful because if you do contact a lawyer and sue you will become known as "that" parent.

Remember teachers and administrators are human too and they will remember this. I had a parent put up a huge stink that her daughter did not make the "A" team in 7th grade. She was not justified and her daughter remained on the "B" team. After her 7th grade year I moved up to be the high school coach and I did remember her temper tantrum for the rest of her daughter's field hockey career.

You should be fired. Your punishing a child for the mother's actions, that is abominable.

As to the OP - the above poster is what you have to look forward to with the public education system. Believe me, you will have larger battles to fight.

Janis

plummer925
03-14-2011, 05:02 AM
You should be fired. Your punishing a child for the mother's actions, that is abominable.

Janis

Are you kidding me!? Really!? The poster you quoted did NOT say she was "punishing the child" in ANY way - she said she REMEMBERED THE MOTHER. Sheesh.

MAH4546
03-14-2011, 05:16 AM
Don't waste your time. In no way, shape or form do you have a case. Move on and let it be.

And, yes, I do have a law degree.

travelbug
03-14-2011, 05:35 AM
You should be fired. Your punishing a child for the mother's actions, that is abominable.Huh? Did I miss something? I didn't see anything about punishing a child.

sam_gordon
03-14-2011, 06:37 AM
I'm curious OP... you were in the room when the drawing(s) was made. So you knew HOW the drawing was going to be done (even split between boys & girls). Did you raise any objection BEFORE the drawing was started, much less completed? Or did you just get upset AFTER you found out your DD didn't make it?

Also, in your opinion, what would be the BEST outcome now? Your DD makes it. But they only have 20 "girl" slots. So how do they pick which girl gets dropped?

My suggestion... confirm with the school board that if two boys drop out, they'll go to the waiting list for girls to fill in. After that, let it go. Do you really think having DD attend all day K as opposed to 1/2 day will help HER that much?

okeydokey
03-14-2011, 06:42 AM
You should be fired. Your punishing a child for the mother's actions, that is abominable.

As to the OP - the above poster is what you have to look forward to with the public education system. Believe me, you will have larger battles to fight.

Janis

Fired for what? For remembering that the mom was a complete ninny?

SaraJayne
03-14-2011, 07:50 AM
Fired for what? For remembering that the mom was a complete ninny?

Sounds like that poster doesn't like public schools. :lmao:

Arielle22
03-14-2011, 08:31 AM
OP,

Even if names were put in a hat and pulled, your DD still might not have gotten in. I advise you to drop it.

MY DDs are in public high school now and when they were first starting school there was no all day Kindergarten. We sent our girls to the half day session and then they went to an after school program.

It could be worse. Yesterday's Boston Globe had a big story on how schools are chosen in Boston. Some kids pick the top 5 schools they want but get in none of them. I don't know what criteria is used but some people theorize this is why Boston is losing its middle class who have children.

azdizzymom
03-14-2011, 08:33 AM
This is just another case of a parent who thinks that her child deserves it more then another child. If her child had gotten picked she wouldn't have even thought about this and she wouldn't care. She just would have been glad that her child got in and that would be that.

So it's not that she really CARES that they did it that way. She just cares because her child was one of the ones who did not get picked.

We just like to sue over everything. Why don't we save the legal issues and the lawsuits for things that really matter and that are really important?

:thumbsup2:thumbsup2:thumbsup2
You hit the nail on the head. If her child had been picked she wouldn't have cared how the spots were chosen. Also, OP as someone else stated when you saw how the drawing was going you should have raised this stink BEFORE it was done not afterward. With your attitude your child is going to think she deserves everything and when things don't go her way something bad was done to her.

I agree that teachers do remember the parents who raise a stink. They don't hold it against the kids but they know the whining, complaining pain in the posterior parents! ;)

Grow up and let your child enjoy WHATEVER KINDERGARTEN CLASS SHE GETS IN!

dogluva
03-14-2011, 09:18 AM
You should be fired. Your punishing a child for the mother's actions, that is abominable.

As to the OP - the above poster is what you have to look forward to with the public education system. Believe me, you will have larger battles to fight.

Janis

OMG-she did not say she punished the child. She just remembered the temper tantrum the mother had. Nothing like reading into something. More teacher bashing, again some how we are always to blame.

dis-happy
03-14-2011, 09:50 AM
I would just leave it! You are going to make a stink and as others have said be labeled for the ENTIRE TIME your child(ren) are in that school! Teachers know exactly what parents complain, whine and raise fusses. Same goes for administration.

Or worse yet, the OP may be shooting herself in the foot as far as the waitlist goes. I could see an adminsitrative person sticking her child's application on the bottom of the pile as any new openings come up. When you have to work with people that you want to help you it's far better not to burn bridges.

Becky2005
03-14-2011, 10:19 AM
Or worse yet, the OP may be shooting herself in the foot as far as the waitlist goes. I could see an adminsitrative person sticking her child's application on the bottom of the pile as any new openings come up. When you have to work with people that you want to help you it's far better not to burn bridges.

:thumbsup2 I'm thinking if people drop out as she says may happen and her DD gets in, all of a sudden -- this is not going to be a pressing issue anymore for her to pursue.

I'm pretty sure it's legal because she has said it has been brought up before at the board meeting and they continue to do so. My thinking is they specifically seperate the boys/girls with the drawings BECAUSE if they put them all in one group that could be considered discrimination and this way having equal number of slots for both genders.

I'm assuming it's using the same basis that there has to be equal number of sports for boys & girls to not be discrimination.....therefore if there are 7 varsity boy sports there must be 7 varsity girl sports too. Same concept even if they have to drop another girl or boy sport to get the equal numbers.

sam_gordon
03-14-2011, 11:07 AM
Another thought...

Wouldn't the break down of girls vs. boys slots need to equal (if it needs to equal anything) the percentage of kids district wide? I'm thinking maybe there are 250 girls and 250 boys district wide (numbers made up), even if only 21 boys and 26 girls signed up. Maybe that's where they got their percentage? If that's the case, then yes, doing a 50/50 split IS fair and not a case of discrimination.

TenderDonkey
03-14-2011, 01:07 PM
Another lawyer here Ė I would take your case and a $7500 retainer and tie it up in the court system. In the end though it was a fair lottery. Every child had an equal chance of being selected. Sometimes you just have bad luck. Itís almost like betting on black and then suing because the table should have had more black numbers after they take your money.

Lewisc
03-14-2011, 02:04 PM
Another lawyer here – I would take your case and a $7500 retainer and tie it up in the court system. In the end though it was a fair lottery. Every child had an equal chance of being selected. Sometimes you just have bad luck. It’s almost like betting on black and then suing because the table should have had more black numbers after they take your money.

You'd be stealing money if you charged a retainer. The OP said:
There were 26 girls for 20 slots and 21 boys for 20 slots. SO- girls had a 76.9% chance of getting in, boys 95.2% chance. And the waiting list goes by gender also, so if a boy drops, the first boy gets in. I feel this is extremely unfair

In other words every child didn't have an equal chance. I don't know if discrimination laws, including title IX, allow a district to have slots for girls and boys.

I do know your post suggests you didn't read the OP very well.

GinnyEmma
03-14-2011, 02:17 PM
You'd be stealing money if you charged a retainer. The OP said:


In other words every child didn't have an equal chance. I don't know if discrimination laws, including title IX, allow a district to have slots for girls and boys.

I do know your post suggests you didn't read the OP very well.

And they wonder why lawyers have the rep they do.

allison443
03-14-2011, 02:51 PM
And they wonder why lawyers have the rep they do.

Yes, until you need one yourself....;)

GinnyEmma
03-14-2011, 02:56 PM
Yes, until you need one yourself....;)

Lol, I love our lawyer. :) but that statement is the epitome of pathetic.

allison443
03-14-2011, 03:27 PM
Lol, I love our lawyer. :) but that statement is the epitome of pathetic.

:confused:

sam_gordon
03-14-2011, 03:28 PM
In other words every child didn't have an equal chance.
You don't know that. You're comparing this to kids that applied, NOT kids in the district. The ratios can be (and probably are) greatly skewed. I bet the boys to girls ratio district wide (all eligible kids) is closer to 50-50. It might be 49.5-50.5 or 51-49. I'm guessing that's where the district got their ratio.

Lewisc
03-14-2011, 03:44 PM
You don't know that. You're comparing this to kids that applied, NOT kids in the district. The ratios can be (and probably are) greatly skewed. I bet the boys to girls ratio district wide (all eligible kids) is closer to 50-50. It might be 49.5-50.5 or 51-49. I'm guessing that's where the district got their ratio.

Every child that applied didn't get the same chance to enroll. I know that from the OP. I don't know, nor do I care, if the disparity is because of the sex distribution in that school age group or if it's because there is a disparity as to the % of girls vs boys who are interested in full time K. Either way the girls applying have a lower probability of being accepted then the boys.

What I don't know is if having 20 girl slots and 20 boy slots is considered discrimination or if it's permitted.

GinnyEmma
03-14-2011, 03:49 PM
:confused:

For a lawyer say they would take money on a case they knew they would lose just out of greed...pathetic.

QueenDoOver
03-14-2011, 03:52 PM
This is an interesting conversation to me, because I actually had a bit of a stink with my district over our all day kindergarten registration process. Here, they publish that all day is on a first come basis and the date that registration starts. The little secret is that all the parents in the know line up and camp out overnight in order to their child into the program. Now mind you this is in Western Washington. Last year the parents were snowed on. The year I sat out is was 22 degrees. There are no facilities to use, so the parents go out into the field to urinate. My son got in, but I as so apalled by the experience that I protested it in writing at the district level for several years. Nothing has changed by the way. They claim that the alternative is the lottery and nobody is ever happy about that either.

My beef was that the current system is discriminatory, as there is no way that a single parent, or many handicapped parents could participate. In addition, it is a not published anywhere that you need to line up and sleep outside overnight if you want a spot, so any parent that doesn't know that doesn't stand a chance. In addition, I think it is ludicrous that the district knows that this occurs every single year and what the conditions are that the parents face, and yet they do nothing about it and in fact one official made a public statement that it was a good bonding experience for us parents. Seriously??

Leajess99
03-14-2011, 04:03 PM
Another lawyer here Ė I would take your case and a $7500 retainer and tie it up in the court system. In the end though it was a fair lottery. Every child had an equal chance of being selected. Sometimes you just have bad luck. Itís almost like betting on black and then suing because the table should have had more black numbers after they take your money.

Way to again give lawyers a bad name. No wonder people don't like lawyers after posts about stealing money. Again every child did not have an equal chance of getting in. How can it be equal when one gender has a 95% chance while another gender has a 77% chance (or whatever)??

I wouldn't sue over it but posts like this are sad.

sam_gordon
03-14-2011, 04:10 PM
Every child that applied didn't get the same chance to enroll. I know that from the OP. I don't know, nor do I care, if the disparity is because of the sex distribution in that school age group or if it's because there is a disparity as to the % of girls vs boys who are interested in full time K. Either way the girls applying have a lower probability of being accepted then the boys.Depends on how you look at it. Let's say there are 1,000 girls and 1,000 boys district wide. When the OP sent in the application, they had a 1:50 (2%) chance of getting DD in... the same as every other girl (AND boy) in the district.


What I don't know is if having 20 girl slots and 20 boy slots is considered discrimination or if it's permitted.I guess that would be the key. I don't see it being discrimination and the OP can fight it, but I don't think the pros outweigh the cons, even if she wins.

allison443
03-14-2011, 04:28 PM
For a lawyer say they would take money on a case they knew they would lose just out of greed...pathetic.

Ohhh, I agree with you...I thought you meant I was pathetic! duh.:upsidedow

Lewisc
03-14-2011, 04:31 PM
Depends on how you look at it. Let's say there are 1,000 girls and 1,000 boys district wide. When the OP sent in the application, they had a 1:50 (2%) chance of getting DD in... the same as every other girl (AND boy) in the district.

I guess that would be the key. I don't see it being discrimination and the OP can fight it, but I don't think the pros outweigh the cons, even if she wins.

We don't know if the district has a 50-50 split.

The 1,000 girl number is a red herring. The chances of a girl being enrolled is related to the total number of girls who apply, not to the total number of girls who are eligible to apply.

No reason to retain an attorney, unless you're looking to create a precedent. The OP can just call the state or federal (department of education) and see if the practice constitutes prohibited sex discrimination.

I wouldn't look to create new law, just find out what the law is.

It's possible the district did their research. It's also possible this sounds fair to whoever made the decision and it was never checked.

ajk912
03-14-2011, 05:07 PM
OP, I'd let it go, it's really a lose-lose situation. So you have half day kindergarten, you will only have to deal with the halfday inconvienience for a year then you will get the full day school atmosphere. To threaten to sue is really making a mountain out of a molehill.

Here's how it is lose-lose- you don't sue, you don't win YOUR desired result but honestly you ulimately win because you are taking the high road by realizing that you need to pick your battles with a PUBLIC school and this isn't worth the battle.

If you DID sue, if you lose, you will always be the "Parent Who Sued the School." If you win, you'lll still be the "Parent who Sued the School", but now everyone will be wondering why you think you are better than everyone else. They might think that anyway, but they will really think that if you win.

GinnyEmma
03-14-2011, 05:45 PM
Ohhh, I agree with you...I thought you meant I was pathetic! duh.:upsidedow

I am so sorry for not being more clear!

Missy1961
03-14-2011, 07:10 PM
Way to again give lawyers a bad name. No wonder people don't like lawyers after posts about stealing money. Again every child did not have an equal chance of getting in. How can it be equal when one gender has a 95% chance while another gender has a 77% chance (or whatever)??

I wouldn't sue over it but posts like this are sad.


That poster likes to stir the pot. I'd take what he says with a grain of salt.