In need of advice

[10dedfish]

Hey everyone,

My wife works at a preschool, and they have asked me to take the graduation pictures for the little ones. They also want me to come up with a price list and different packages for the parents to purchase.

My question is, should I go ahead and get a smug mug or other similar account and just let the parents decide what they want? Do I need to get a tax id or anything along those lines for pay purposes once the families order whatever pix they like?

As for my setup, I am not a pro by any means. I do have a Rebel XS and 3 lenses, the kit lens, a 75-250 F4-5.6, and the nifty 50.

Thanks,

Matt

[VVFF]

I am by no means an expert...but I do not believe you need a Tax ID for a one time gig. You'll just have to report any income at the end of the year to be taxed on it.

As for creating an account..If you go through the professional houses (smugmug, WHCC, Bayphoto) they all allow access to a generic website where people can order prints. Now, I don't know if you want to go through this trouble. Perhaps it'd be easier just to type out what a set of wallets cost, 8 x 10, 4 x 6, etc. These are high school graduation photos so my guess is that most people will want the basics.

As for the actual pictures. Your best bet probably is the nifty fifty provided that you have good confidence in its focusing ability. This lens at F2.0 or so in front of a good contrasting background would be pretty good. I would highly recommend seeing if you could obtain a flash even if you only used it for some fill flash purposes. Watch out for shadows behind the subject, don't let the flash contribute too much light to the exposure. Just enough for some catchlights in their eyes and to remove shadows from their face.

[10dedfish]

Thanks VVFF. I wasn't sure about smugmug or any of the other sites, all I knew was that you had to pay for them. I will find out more information as time goes on, but I will definitely post any questions here.

Matt

[JoeDif]

If you are planning on making a profit on your images sold then you need the SmugMug Pro account as that is the only level that allows you to set the prices for the various print sizes

[10dedfish]

If you are planning on making a profit on your images sold then you need the SmugMug Pro account as that is the only level that allows you to set the prices for the various print sizes

How much does the pro account run? I'm doing this mostly as a favor for the wife, and I don't want to run up a lot of cost, if possible.

[JoeDif]

How much does the pro account run? I'm doing this mostly as a favor for the wife, and I don't want to run up a lot of cost, if possible.


Pro account is $150 per year I believe

The Power account is $60 and prints can still be ordered at cost but you can't set the price so you don't make any profit.

[10dedfish]

Thanks Joe. Thats a little too steep, so I will most likely come up with a package list. Thanks Everyone, for your inputs and advice.

Matt

[Frantasmic]

Are you doing posed pictures of the kids in their outfits, or are you going to try action shots, pictures of them receiving some sort of diploma?

Or both?

What venue is the graduation ceremony in? Is it a church, a school auditorium/cafeteria/gym like room?

Is the ceremony at the end of a regular school day (when natural light will be coming in some windows) or is it at night?

All of these will be factors in getting good shots. And most of these scenarios would probably also require some flash.

As for cost, you are probably not expecting to make any money. You just don't want to lose money.

Most school packages I've seen involve an 8x10, 2 5x7s, and 8 wallets for around $25.00 or so. Or just sell a sheet for $10 each (each of the above divisions is a "sheet" at most photo places).

[10dedfish]

Are you doing posed pictures of the kids in their outfits, or are you going to try action shots, pictures of them receiving some sort of diploma?

Or both?

What venue is the graduation ceremony in? Is it a church, a school auditorium/cafeteria/gym like room?

Is the ceremony at the end of a regular school day (when natural light will be coming in some windows) or is it at night?

All of these will be factors in getting good shots. And most of these scenarios would probably also require some flash.

As for cost, you are probably not expecting to make any money. You just don't want to lose money.

Most school packages I've seen involve an 8x10, 2 5x7s, and 8 wallets for around $25.00 or so. Or just sell a sheet for $10 each (each of the above divisions is a "sheet" at most photo places).

Fran, you hit the nail on the head. I'm not trying to make any money at this, just helping out as a favor.

The pictures will be held in a church, most likely in the morning. I will more than likely end up using a flash, and the kids will be in white robes. Im hoping to do an action shot of them walking across the stage and a posed shot of them receiving their diploma's.

Thanks


Matt

[Marlton Mom]

Did you need advice on the technical aspects of the shoot and the practical aspects of the shoot or just the Tech stuff?

Marlton Mom

[JoeDif]

Fran, you hit the nail on the head. I'm not trying to make any money at this, just helping out as a favor.

The pictures will be held in a church, most likely in the morning. I will more than likely end up using a flash, and the kids will be in white robes. Im hoping to do an action shot of them walking across the stage and a posed shot of them receiving their diploma's.

Thanks


Matt


Matt - have you thought about putting the images up on a site like Flickr and just letting the parents pick what they want and have them get their photos printed? This way you won't be incurring any expenses.

[10dedfish]

Matt - have you thought about putting the images up on a site like Flickr and just letting the parents pick what they want and have them get their photos printed? This way you won't be incurring any expenses.

No, I havent. I know that some of the parents did not sign the release form from the school, which lets them post pictures of their kids online.

What I have thought about doing, is just charging a flat 25$ fee, and then handing the parents a CD with the pictures and a release absolving me of any rights.

Marlton Mom, any advice is good advice. I have about 2 yrs experience in photography, but I will be the first to admit that I'm no Pro. Any recommendations will be accepting in the spirit with which they are given. :yay:

Matt

[rtphokie]

Hey everyone,

My wife works at a preschool, and they have asked me to take the graduation pictures for the little ones. They also want me to come up with a price list and different packages for the parents to purchase.

My question is, should I go ahead and get a smug mug or other similar account and just let the parents decide what they want? Do I need to get a tax id or anything along those lines for pay purposes once the families order whatever pix they like?

As for my setup, I am not a pro by any means. I do have a Rebel XS and 3 lenses, the kit lens, a 75-250 F4-5.6, and the nifty 50.

Thanks,

Matt

Keep in mind that some parents are going to think of these as "school photos" and may have the expectation of professional lighting, backdrop and some standard set of poses. If that's not what you are planning on doing, make it clear up front. If there is somewhere outside you can pose the kids, consider that. It solves your background and much of your lighting questions, assuming weather isn't an issue.

As for photo printing and payment. Setup (or have the school) setup a smugmug account to upload these to and have the parents order prints from there. Its relatively inexpensive and you can put some security around it so you dont have to worry about photo releases (since you aren't publishing them).

If it were me, I'd accept a flat fee from the school for services rendered and have them handle photo ordering. Sign away all rights to the photos to the school. Keeps you out of the ordering hassles too.

my $.02

[10dedfish]

Keep in mind that some parents are going to think of these as "school photos" and may have the expectation of professional lighting, backdrop and some standard set of poses. If that's not what you are planning on doing, make it clear up front. If there is somewhere outside you can pose the kids, consider that. It solves your background and much of your lighting questions, assuming weather isn't an issue.

As for photo printing and payment. Setup (or have the school) setup a smugmug account to upload these to and have the parents order prints from there. Its relatively inexpensive and you can put some security around it so you dont have to worry about photo releases (since you aren't publishing them).

If it were me, I'd accept a flat fee from the school for services rendered and have them handle photo ordering. Sign away all rights to the photos to the school. Keeps you out of the ordering hassles too.

my $.02

Thank RTP. I hadn't even considered that facet, but it will definitely be something I talk with the wife about.

As for a flat fee from the school, they have alot of other issues going on, and this will most likely be the last group to go through there. Thats why I didn't plan on getting anything from them.

[Marlton Mom]

Marlton Mom, any advice is good advice. I have about 2 yrs experience in photography, but I will be the first to admit that I'm no Pro. Any recommendations will be accepting in the spirit with which they are given. :yay: Matt

Hi Matt,
I know that you probably have some experience doing this sort of thing but I'm going to lay it out for all to see as I've done this for 6 years at a school for a million different events.

I'd say that in a situation like this your best bet is to come to the rehearsal that the school will have where they show the kids what to expect and how to behave.

Make sure everybody (Students and Staff involved in the ceremony) understands that you will need the kid to stop and pose with the diploma long enough for you to take the picture. That would mean having the diploma presented, then having the student and anyone else STOP, pose the way you want them and SMILE long enough for you to take the picture.

This needs to be practiced as part of the ceremony otherwise you are screwed! The kids will be flying off the stage and you will only get some shots. Others will be blurry or the backs of heads.

If everyone knows what the deal is then the adult presenting the diploma will help you with the kid that is not in the right position. (You will have to ask them to redirect if needed, the adult won't figure it out because they are not thinking like a Photographer.

The key here is that everyone is on board with the plan and the Stop, Pose and Smile is a part of the drill.

If you can accomplish that they you are golden!

The next deal here is what kind of pose are you after? Do you want a side of the head while the student is being handed the diploma or do you want a more posed shot where they stop and face front.

I have found that this type of shoot does not take long and is not really disruptive to the ceremony. Having everybody aware of what you need is essential and this needs to be communicated ahead of time so the kids practice it when they do their run through.

The one thing you will hear about is the grumbling from parents because you are front and center and they are "missing" the shot with their crappy point and shoots and obnoxiously way underpowered flashes.

It may help to let the parents know that "a photographer" that is "helping the school" will be positioned in front to take pictures which will them be available to the families, blah, blah, blah.... I would have this announcement made at the start of the ceremony since nobody bothers to read the stuff that is sent home. You would not believe the number of people who get extremely pissed at the fact that you are in front and taking pictures and they are not. The Grandparents are going to be the ones that are the most disruptive because they are clueless and frankly they just don't give a damn about being considerate except for when it's their boopsie's turn.

By the way, Shoot on burst so you get a couple of exposures in case you get the blinkers. 2 in 10 will be blinkers if you just shoot 1 shot. One will look like a mini "cereal" killer and if you're really lucky you'll get the ever popular "finger in the nose" shot. You'd be surprised how many teachers have itchy noses and it Looks like a "finger in the nose" shot but it's not.

Now we come to the group shot. This is the students in class formation and gown posing with their teachers. Again this needs to be practiced ahead of time. If Possible do it before the ceremony, perhaps at the assembly point for the kids. Now keep in mind doing it before hand is next to impossible because kids are gonna be late and they'll fly in at the last minute. (Side note: This is almost always because Grand Ma/Pa is late or stuck on the toilet and everybody has to come together because Grand Ma/Pa will never find the place.).

So here is how you get around that....
Let's say the ceremony starts at 10 am. Tell people that..... but it really starts at 10:15 so that you will have time to take the group shot right before they go out to the ceremony. The school staff knows this 10:15 is the real time, but whatever you do don't let the parents know, and besides, the line of Grandparents waiting for the bathroom at the preschool will be out the door so everyone could use the extra time.

So let's recap:

1) have the staff and kids on board with the plan of Stop, Pose and Smile during the ceremony. PRACTICE this.

2) Make an announcement before the ceremony that you are up front because you are shooting for the school and remind parents to stay in their seats. (Ha! good luck with that one!!)

3) Take the group shot BEFORE the ceremony, afterwards will be CHAOS!!

4) the real SECRET time that the ceremony starts is at 10:15. The parents think it's 10!

5) Have somebody make sure there is enough toilet paper in the restrooms for all those grandparents! It will be like they haven't gone in a week, trust me!

Ok, so I hope I have helped. I really hope I have made you laugh. If you do enough of this sort of thing you'll find out that everything I've said is true... :sad2:

~ ESPECIALLY the grandparents! ~

Good luck,
Marlton Mom

[10dedfish]

Thanks Marlton Mom, You have given me alot to talk to the wife about tonite. I will fill you guys in with the results tomorrow.

And I want to say thank you again for everyone that contributed. It's always nice to know that someone has your back!

Matt

[10dedfish]

Ok everyone, here is the latest and greatest.

The preschool wants staged portraits of the kids, a face shot and a half body shot, in front of a background. They would also like for me to do packages for the parents, and a collage shot of all the kids around photos of the teachers. They also would like for me to handle all of the ordering once the parents return the order forms.

The church is well lit, but Im thinking of picking up an external flash to take with me for fill lighting. This is my first time actually doing portraits, so Im a little intimidated by it all.

The more I think about this, the more a smugmug account is looking better and better. :confused3

Matt

[Pea-n-Me]

Good luck, you have got your work cut out for you.

To throw in my $,02 - free is one thing, but once you start charging money, it's a whole other ballgame: a) if you're presenting yourself as a "professional", parents and others will be relying on you to adequately capture the moments (so may not worry too much about taking their own pics); b) people expect "good" (at least) for their money, and b) these are moments that can't be "recaptured" or redone, which makes it the kind of pressure that's similar to that of a wedding! :scared1:

Shooting in these conditions can be quite difficult. I'd at least practice beforehand. (Marlton Mom has done a good job of outlining some of the other things you'll need to do in order to up your chances of getting good shots.)The few times I've shot in a church I've been pretty :eek: at how :headache: it can be. Low light, movement, inadequate/malfunctioning equipment and inexperience are a frightening combination!

[Frantasmic]

A question if I may.

You stated originally that you are doing this as a favor for you wife, which indicated to me that she was somewhat in charge there AND realized that you were not a professional.

The requirements you say the school desires indicates they are really looking for professional results and shots.

So, by doing a favor for your wife, what does she gain from the school? Was she put in charge of the photography requirements? Is she really just looking to save the school and/or parents a little extra money? I agree with the previous poster about this event becoming more challenging with great expectations. ( I guess what I am hemming and hawing about is why didn't they just go with a professional photographer to begin with?)

It's one thing to do a favor to your wife and have people somewhat accepting of semi-pro or serious amateur photography. It's another thing altogether to meet these expectations while at the same time not cursing yourself for the obvious time and effort you will no doubt spend on this project.

[JoeDif]

This is starting to look like a no win situation for you, one that may wind up costing you $$$

[10dedfish]

I have to agree with everyone. My wife is the senior teacher on staff, and works hand in hand with the director. I wont mention the name of the church, but they are having financial issues. As for why they want me to do it, instead of the pro that they usually use, Im not sure. I will try to talk to her again tonight and see if I can get more information out of her, and try to get the point across that this is becoming a major tasking instead of a favor.

Once again everyone, thanks for your input. I knew there was a reason I like posting on this board.

Matt

[Marlton Mom]

A question if I may.

You stated originally that you are doing this as a favor for you wife, which indicated to me that she was somewhat in charge there AND realized that you were not a professional.

The requirements you say the school desires indicates they are really looking for professional results and shots.

So, by doing a favor for your wife, what does she gain from the school? Was she put in charge of the photography requirements? Is she really just looking to save the school and/or parents a little extra money? I agree with the previous poster about this event becoming more challenging with great expectations. ( I guess what I am hemming and hawing about is why didn't they just go with a professional photographer to begin with?)

It's one thing to do a favor to your wife and have people somewhat accepting of semi-pro or serious amateur photography. It's another thing altogether to meet these expectations while at the same time not cursing yourself for the obvious time and effort you will no doubt spend on this project.

I agree with all of the above. The first thing I thought when I read the expectations for this shoot is to "RUN!!!".

It's one thing to take some shots to help out and quite another for the "professional" portrait package that they seem to be expecting from you.

This has all the hallmarks of a disaster in the making. The expectation is that you are going to be able to provide this level of service, with out the equipment or experience while photographing one of the most difficult age groups for portraits, oh and by the way you are doing this for FREE!

Something is seriously out of whack here. I'd say the expectations are too high for your current situation. Unfortunately, the person from the school that is setting this scenario has no idea what's involved and they are expecting WAY too much from you.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but this is going to end badly because:

1) You're going to spend Hours and Hours coordinating all aspects of this.
2) There will be X % of parents who are not happy with the results and they will feel free to let you know that it is YOUR fault. In reality, perhaps "Boopsie" was having a bad day and wasn't able to pose nicely, or the parent will have a problem figuring out how to order prints and YOU will be the one that has to deal with them. Perhaps "Boopsie's" outfit was wrinkled or her hair wasn't right and now we need to re-shoot this....I've heard them all.

I could go on about what the parents will do to you but you really don't want to know.

If I were you I'd take the bull by the horns.
Be honest about what you can do/want to do/are willing to do.
Make sure you communicate that clearly to who ever is in charge.
Then you have to watch that they convey the truth about what you can do accurately. I have heard of situations where one thing was said and then a whole other steaming pile was forced on a photographer.

With these types of expectations from the school, this is a job for a Professional photographer, ideally one who specializes in kids and can offer the level of service that the parents are going to demand for these photos.

If you decide to go through with this as per the school's expectations I wish you the best of luck. It will be a real eye opener dealing with the school, the kids and their parents.

Stay away, stay FAR AWAY!
Marlton Mom

PS I'm sorry if I sound harsh but you are really getting your self into something and I'm trying to help you benefit from my years of experience and observations concerning this exact sort of thing.

[10dedfish]

PS I'm sorry if I sound harsh but you are really getting your self into something and I'm trying to help you benefit from my years of experience and observations concerning this exact sort of thing.

You aren't sounding harsh at all MM, in fact I appreciate the honesty and experience that everyone is sharing. I will try to speak with her again tonight, because I still feel that she isn't grasping how much this will suck. I will also try to talk her into going with the previous photographer. I think the issue with her was pricing, but I'm not sure.

Thanks,

Matt

[bob100]

The preschool wants staged portraits of the kids, a face shot and a half body shot, in front of a background. They would also like for me to do packages for the parents, and a collage shot of all the kids around photos of the teachers. They also would like for me to handle all of the ordering once the parents return the order forms.

The church is well lit, but Im thinking of picking up an external flash to take with me for fill lighting. This is my first time actually doing portraits, so Im a little intimidated by it all.

The more I think about this, the more a smugmug account is looking better and better. :confused3

Matt

I'll also throw my $.02 - decline this "opportunity" !
Those types of portraits are difficult to pull off and it appears you don't have the equipment or experience to do it right.

[10dedfish]

All right everyone,

Sorry for not updating over the weekend, I was down pretty hard with a cold.

I spoke with the wife, and she knows Im not comfortable doing the shots like she wants. She doesnt understand what my hesitance is about, and thinks Im underestimating myself, but hopefully things will come out ok.

I appreciate everyones input and advice on this, you guys saved me from a potentially bad situation.

Thanks

Matt

[10dedfish]

UPDATE:

OK everyone,

I did the shoot for the kids on 2 separate days, and out of 23 kids I shot way to many pictures. It was alot more than what I wanted, but due to a lack of experience on my part, I figured that having more shots would give me more of a selection if they came out blurry.

4 poses were shot, as well as one in the cap and gown for the little tykes that were "Graduating". I charged 10$ per child, and that was mostly to cover the cost of cd's, and post-processing. I gave the parents a photo release as part of the "package" mainly because I wasnt as concerned about making money as I was about gaining experience. I also made 3 collages, one for each class then one for the grads.

Over all Comments from Parents:

ALL of the feedback from th parents have been extremely positive, and I have even had 2 other moms that are friends with parents ask about me doing some shots of their kids as well. One parent even told me wife that she wished I was doing the photos for her older son whose in Grade school, as she hated the ones that were done there.

Experience gained:
Shylena, my wife, and I got to work together on a new project. She works with kids everyday, and was able to get the kids to do what was needed when the time came. She really enjoyed the experience and has stated that she wouldnt mind doing it again.

I learned alot about portrait poses, PP'ing, and the importance of shooting in RAW.

Overall:

I had a great time, and am now thinking about maybe pursuing this as more than a hobby. Time will tell. I will post some of the shots of my two daughters when I get home.


Matt:surfweb:

[Frantasmic]

Congrats on a job well done.

You did gain experience, which is always good. As long as you don't have parents running after you with pitchforks, some tar, and a sack of feathers, I guess you are doing all right then!

[Marlton Mom]

Whew! I'm really glad it worked out for you. When it's good it's great and when it's bad it's awful. Having your wife assist you with the kids was a stroke of genius. I'll bet she had everybody's number and could get them to settle in and do what you needed.

Congratulations!

Marlton Mom

[10dedfish]

You are so right there MM. My wife was able to handle the kids like a pro, especially when some of them didnt want to wear the cap and gown or was a little frowny.

So without further ado, here are a few shots of my girls, Abigail the youngest, who is one of the kids graduating, and Ashlea my oldest, who I was told to do some portraits of, once my wife so the results of the other pix.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s185/mattnshy/The%20Kids/IMG_1453.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s185/mattnshy/The%20Kids/abigail2011.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s185/mattnshy/The%20Kids/IMG_0765.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s185/mattnshy/The%20Kids/IMG_2661_Multi.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s185/mattnshy/The%20Kids/IMG_2656.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s185/mattnshy/The%20Kids/IMG_2618.jpg

[Frantasmic]

Your cap and gown picture was great. Backdrop and pose were good. Like the black and white decision too. Good job

[10dedfish]

Thanks Fran!

I did a B&W shot for all of the graduates, and used those for the Grad collage. I was really pleased overall, and I learned TONS!

Matt

[jkc0325]

Excellent job! I wish you'd been around when my girls were graduating from preschool!! :)