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View Full Version : Update- some GOOD some bad some sort of big: early entry returning Oct 1?


d-r
09-18-2002, 08:04 AM
I just read a rumor that hunchback and tarzan are going dark "for good" in 2-4 weeks - and that the their will be changes to the hours of the luau and hoop de doo, and that tapestry will be ending - this is from usenet, and I have no knowledge at all about the veracity. I hope not. This is total rumor so don't go wigging out yet because there may be nothing to it -

DR

I have an update below-

beattyfamily
09-18-2002, 09:30 AM
I just read it too over at RADP and was seeing if anyone here posted it!

What a bummer and so soon after a price increase?:confused:

mjstaceyuofm
09-18-2002, 09:41 AM
Never saw Tarzan, but am a huge fan of the Hunchback show. This truly would be disappointing. If cost-cutting is the word, I can see our friends PP and TDA cutting the park events. What I don't understand is changing the ticketed events. I would assume that these pay for themselves. Is there not enough demand for these shows?

Maybe cutting in-park events would be a trade-off for the longer hours at MK they're talking about experimenting with in addition to shows/fireworks/giant character meets.

Who knows?
don't you just love rumors???

QuickGold
09-18-2002, 09:57 AM
Gah! Someone needs to stand in on these meetings when they decide these things and anytime they try to remove something, hit them with a huge fly swatter.

Meriweather
09-18-2002, 10:32 AM
wdwig also reports on the Hunchback show :(

"Hunchback to perform last show September 28!"

d-r
09-18-2002, 10:33 AM
Some confirming posts have came in - one poster stated that the hunchback crew has been given two weeks notice and the final show will be next Saturday. Another states that "As of september 29th the tapestry of dreams parade will be down from two
segments to one. The parade is gonna be from Morrocco to Germany ONLY."

DR

d-r
09-18-2002, 11:00 AM
This is from Deb Will's:

Breaking Disney World News!!!
-- Hunchback to perform last show September 28!
-- The new Princess Storybook Breakfast at Norway made permanent.
-- Beginning October 1: "Extra Magic Hour" -- one theme park will open an hour early every day to resort guests; Character Caravan will be discontinued; Beauty and the Beast show reverts to daily schedule!

philjerden
09-18-2002, 11:04 AM
WDW raises ticket prices--and now, in a single park, has two dark theaters! (ABC Theater and Hunchback)

Makes no sense at all. Surely they have something up their sleeves to replace these shows.

I can almost understand restricting the Dreams parade to one unit, since the times I've seen it, there are frequent gaps in the crowds lining the Promenade. At least, it seems Disney will still present two parades nightly.

And if Tarzan Rocks bites the dust--AAARRRGGGHHH!

Where will it all end????

Phil

Bstanley
09-18-2002, 11:07 AM
Early Entry returning?!

It'll never happen with the present management ... they are incapable of doing anything that customers actually want...

;-)

mjstaceyuofm
09-18-2002, 11:10 AM
Beginning October 1: "Extra Magic Hour" -- one theme park will open an hour early every day to resort guestsWhat of all those surveys that Disney supposedly took in which the results were: more character interaction and less park hours? Remember those lame excuses the CM's were feeding us when this happened? It just annoys me that they do this chain-yanking all the time, not only to guests, but to CM's as well...

d-r
09-18-2002, 11:12 AM
If they close Tarzan, they really have to add something to AK. Tarzan replaced the jungle book show, maybe something new will come on-line there. This isn't my favorite show, but there the AK really can't loose attractions. Maybe this is a pretty costly show with all the acrobats and stuff I don't really know.

I really like the hunchback show. I'm glad that we have a trip this weekend so we can see it if it is going to close. I am really hoping that what Deb Will's is reporting comes true. If so, it looks like they are closing the hunch back show and that now Beauty and the Best will show every day (I'm not sure about this, have they still been "alternating" the show days of the mgm shows? If so, maybe they decided that it would be better to run B&B every day and no hunchback, instead of alternating it with hunchback. That way you would just have the costs of one show - sucks for the cast and crew. Hope there is a plan for this).

A lot of people will be glad that epcot princess breakfast thing is permanent, and I know a lot of people will be glad if they bring back early entry and get rid of character caravan, at least people who post around here. Again, if what Deb says comes true (and I have a lot of faith in her) it looks like to me they are listening to their guests and trying to figure out balances that give the most guests what they want within the current resources at wdw -

Has anyone seen anything else? Seems like a big news day at wdw-

DR

d-r
09-18-2002, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by mjstaceyuofm
What of all those surveys that Disney supposedly took in which the results were: more character interaction and less park hours? Remember those lame excuses the CM's were feeding us when this happened? It just annoys me that they do this chain-yanking all the time, not only to guests, but to CM's as well...

Actually, I really do believe that the number one request from wdw guests is more characters. It isn't my thing really, and I prefer the way the characters are at disneyland, where it is more informal and they play around more, than at disney world where everyone lines up for that perfect picture. But I really don't doubt that they have survey results that indicate that this is what the majority of guests want more of. Again, I believe that most (not all, but the largest percentage group) WDW guests are visiting with young children and that they really value their children seeing the characters.

I also really don't doubt that the surprise mornings had low attendance. They probably they could swap it with the character caravan and most people would be happy, since so many people ask for more characters.

It also seems to me that they may have found out that they were wrong with that conclusion. I bet they have survery information from after the change that shows that guests weren't satisfied with it, and thus the change. The information that they would have had before the change isn't the same sort of informaiton that they would have after it ("HEY! Bring back early entry!")

I hope it plays out -

DR

mjstaceyuofm
09-18-2002, 11:20 AM
Has anyone seen anything else? Seems like a big news day at wdw-Visit wdwmagic.com (http://www.wdwmagic.com/whatsnew.htm) for some more interesting rumors just posted earlier today.

The biggest one is the rumor about funds being diverted from planning of a 5th gate to fixing the attendance slump at Epcot...

d-r
09-18-2002, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by philjerden

I can almost understand restricting the Dreams parade to one unit, since the times I've seen it, there are frequent gaps in the crowds lining the Promenade. At least, it seems Disney will still present two parades nightly.


The plus side of this is: "more room for drinking" ;)

Honestly, I don't think this is a terrible thing. I haven't enjoyed the parade as much sense it was changed from nations to dreams, and it is getting near the end of the year anyway. This way the guests who want to see it can still do so, those that want to move around more freely in world showcase can plan accordingly. Might turn out to be a good thing for most guests.

DR

d-r
09-18-2002, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by mjstaceyuofm

The biggest one is the rumor about funds being diverted from planning of a 5th gate to fixing the attendance slump at Epcot...

That's what Scoop's been saying, and it makes a lot of sense-

DR

d-r
09-18-2002, 11:34 AM
This fits with the talk here about more charcter interaction at MK, except it is at opening rather than at closing - I guess instead of caravan-ning to the resorts the characters will be at MK -


In addition, Disney will implement an unprecedented expansion of characters at MK with more characters meeting and greeting guests than ever before, starting each day with a special character-focused park opening.


There's got to be a press release somewhere-

DR

mjstaceyuofm
09-18-2002, 11:35 AM
Actually, I really do believe that the number one request from wdw guests is more characters.I don't doubt that fact or your logic (rather agree with it having 2 little boys who love Mickey....), but being the educator that you are (I believe you teach at MSU - correct me if I'm wrong) I assume you know something about statistical sampling and surveys, or at least enough to know how the questions can skew the answer set to one direction or the other. This is what I think happened in the first place when EE was canceled and more characters were added. It was a faulty, arrogant survey that was used to justify a cost-cutting measure that hopefully (if Deb's rumor is true) back-fired on them...I also really don't doubt that the surprise mornings had low attendance.Neither do I, but it was really the only quantifiable perk a Disney resort guest had. This goes back to my other thread about attendance. It's the occupancy of the resorts that has a larger impact to the bottome line of WDW than actual attendance at the parks.

d-r
09-18-2002, 11:40 AM
Actually Matt I do understand it very well (yeah, I do teach research methods) and I agree with what you are saying - I am trying to say I can understand how they came to that conclusion (and I can understand how it could be an erroneous conclusion) - I am in mostly total agreement with what you are saying - I just wasn't spelling it out in as much detail as you have. I think they had two pieces of probably fairly accurate data, but they put them together to draw a conclusion that probably didn't have the results they expected - I can see how that could happen-
DR

d-r
09-18-2002, 12:02 PM
wdwmagic is now posting this as the early entry schedule:

Sunday - Magic Kingdom
Monday - Disney's Animal Kingdom
Tuesday - Disney-MGM Studios
Wednesday - Epcot
Thursday--Magic Kingdom
Friday - Disney's Animal Kingdom
Saturday - Disney-MGM Studios

This kind of whomps because Sat. used to be MK day, and you knew to avoid the MK on Sat. anyway. If they are making it Sunday (didn't Sunday used to be MGM?) then they are making it where both weekend days are bad MK days. Oh well.

DR

mjstaceyuofm
09-18-2002, 12:03 PM
yeah, I do teach research methodsA-HA! my assumption was right!I am in mostly total agreement with what you are sayingDR - I like your line of thinkin'! ;)I just wasn't spelling it out in as much detail as you haveI need to do that to keep it straight for myself (I'm one of those engineer-types you see and not a fast-talking lawyer like some others we know). If others benefit from my talking (posting) out-loud, then that's great!

All told, the only thing that bums me out about this (if we've moved past rumors and onto truths) is Hunchback. I will be sad to see this show go. EE is a great re-addition along with more characters in the a.m. - great potential there. The princess breakfast - well, if there's the demand - go for it (remember I have 2 boys and it's Woody and Buzz all the way)! ToD was starting to age imo (hey-a, hey-a ho-a :rolleyes: ) and was rather lengthy. I'm neutral on BatB, but glad to see it will be available daily. I know in the final analysis it really comes down to half-dozen/six of another and just a shuffling of resources, but if more people like the 6 they're being given vs. the half-dozen taken away, then I commend WDW for working within the constraints set up by others and the limited resources they have.

WDW2002
09-18-2002, 12:26 PM
Though I love to hear the rumors, I do hold much faith in them until I see/hear it officially from Disney....

The one very odd thing I am seeing is that all these changes are occuring right after the new guide books come out so now all of them will be old out dated before they are even in the book stores.

Another Voice
09-18-2002, 12:27 PM
The return of something like Early Entry has to rank as the biggest “WELL DUH!!!!!” in Disney history. Despite all the rumblings about research, the original cancellation had absolutely nothing to do with surveys, analysis, or guests’ desires. It was a cost savings move pure and simple on the part of people who can read a PowerPoint presentation but do not understand business (they ended saving a small amount of operating costs but killed the hotel occupancy rate – just as everyone said it would). All the talk about “character interaction” was just marketing to justify their actions.

Disney’s fiscal year starts on October 1st. You can expect to see some other changes and/or tradeoffs around that date too when new budgets start. Of course, any restorations at WDW are really subject to the ratings at ABC and the which side is currently leading in the Orlando-Burbank tug-of-war.


P.S. Also from the WDWMagic.com piece on Epcot rumors is “The project has the rather appropriate name of "Project Gemini". Hmmm….. let’s see, Gemini is the constellation of the twins…well, what are twins…two separate, but jointed people…what could they do to Epcot that would be like that?....

EUROPA
09-18-2002, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Another Voice

P.S. Also from the WDWMagic.com piece on Epcot rumors is “The project has the rather appropriate name of "Project Gemini". Hmmm….. let’s see, Gemini is the constellation of the twins…well, what are twins…two separate, but jointed people…what could they do to Epcot that would be like that?....

A riddle from AV...I'm not good at these. :(

Two Spaceship Earths ? ....nah way to much money. Ok I'm out of ideas.

mjstaceyuofm
09-18-2002, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by WDW2002
Though I love to hear the rumors, I do hold much faith in them until I see/hear it officially from Disney....Actually, this has been made official via a press release from Disney.

mjstaceyuofm
09-18-2002, 12:35 PM
Europa - think two parks. Future World and World Showcase. AV's riddle has to do with separating the parks to let locals into World Showcase to dine/shop at night. There were some other threads on this board relating to this topic a while ago...

mrtoadslastride
09-18-2002, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Another Voice

P.S. Also from the WDWMagic.com piece on Epcot rumors is “The project has the rather appropriate name of "Project Gemini". Hmmm….. let’s see, Gemini is the constellation of the twins…well, what are twins…two separate, but jointed people…what could they do to Epcot that would be like that?....

So they really are going to split Epcot into two parks with seperate admissions? I guess that is one way to add a fifth gate, break up one gate into two.

EUROPA
09-18-2002, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by mjstaceyuofm
Europa - think two parks. Future World and World Showcase. AV's riddle has to do with separating the parks to let locals into World Showcase to dine/shop at night. There were some other threads on this board relating to this topic a while ago...

Yeah I saw that but thought it had been shot down due to logistical problems ?

Bob O
09-18-2002, 12:58 PM
Im glad to see the return of EE(if it actually happens) and never did believe the pr BS from disney that more people wanted to see the characters than take part in EE.
But its also sad to see Hunchback leave. I enjoyed the show alot more than Beauty and the Beast which should have been the one gotten rid of IMHO.

WDW2002
09-18-2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by mjstaceyuofm
Actually, this has been made official via a press release from Disney.
Do you have a link to this press release?? I looked on their site and the lastest press release is from July.

rhodgkie
09-18-2002, 01:08 PM
How depressing. Hunchback is my favorite show at WDW. And I thought I had recently read that it had been extended like four years. I guess not. Oh well, it will make my trip planning a little easier--I had really planned my upcoming trip to make sure that I was at MGM/DS on a day when Hunchback was playing. Now I guess any day is as good as any other!

hopemax
09-18-2002, 01:08 PM
The Hunchback Show is my favorite of all the WDW stage shows. I agree that Beauty & the Beast is long overdue (it never was as good as the DL version) but with the movie being released on DVD next month, there is probably a re-birth of Beauty & the Beast things.

I wonder how long until those puppets end up on Ebay. I wish I had the money for them. :(

mjstaceyuofm
09-18-2002, 01:09 PM
Do you have a link to this press release?? I looked on their site and the lastest press release is from July.Here's what I dredged up from the financial pages....

Walt Disney World Announces Entertainment Update

Beginning in October 2002, Walt Disney World will be making a major expansion of the entertainment product, including:

* More Disney characters meeting guests in the Magic Kingdom every day - from a special park opening "character flood" at the Train Station, to characters strolling the streets. In all, there will be more characters at the Magic Kingdom on a daily basis than ever before.

* More character "meet and greets" at Epcot World Showcase.

* After a successful trial run, the "Princess Storybook Breakfast" at the Norway Pavilion in Epcot becomes a regular offering.

* The Beauty and the Beast - Live on Stage show at the Disney-MGM Studios expands to 7-days a week.

* Mickey's Not-So-Scary Halloween Party adds two additional nights this year making a total of seven nights, (October 11, 17, 20, 25, 27, 31 & November 1)

* Now live entertainment is added to this year's Epcot International Food & Wine Festival with the "Eat to the Beat" music series starring "The Temptations Review," "The 5th Dimension," "Sister Sledge," and "Chubby Checker," among others. The Festival begins October 19, 2002.

With all this new entertainment, Walt Disney World will hire 450 new Cast Members, both full and part-time.

Starting October 1st, Walt Disney World will unveil the new Extra Magic Hour program giving exclusive time at the theme parks for resort guests, at no additional charge. Each day, one of the four parks will open one hour early on a rotating basis to Disney resort guests providing an "Extra Magic Hour" for the guests. At the same time, we will be discontinuing our Character Caravan, where characters greeted guests at select hotels during the week. After listening to our guests, they told us they wanted more time in the theme parks and more time with the characters.

The schedule will be as follows:

Sunday = Magic Kingdom
Monday = Animal Kingdom
Tuesday = MGM Studios
Wednesday = Epcot
Thursday = Magic Kingdom
Friday = Animal Kingdom
Saturday = MGM Studios

"Disney's The Hunchback of Notre Dame - A Musical Adventure" will give its final performance on September 28, ending a 7-year run at the Disney-MGM Studios. This show was created to coincide with the theatrical release of Hunchback back in 1996. This stage show has run twice as long as originally intended which is a testament to the show quality and the Cast.

Walt Disney World Extends the 100 Years of Magic Celebration.

The 4-park party continues through February 28, 2003! The Walt Disney World 100 Years of Magic Celebration is too good to end, so it won't! The theme park announced today the biggest celebration ever will now continue through February 28, 2003. The 100 Years of Magic Celebration kicked off last year on October 1, 2001, with new live entertainment, new attractions and special events at all four of the Walt Disney World theme parks, The celebration marks the 100th anniversary of the birth of the company founder, Walt Disney, who was born on December 5, 1901.

Walt Disney World Resort President, Al Weiss says "100 Years of Magic has been such a hit with guests, we are thrilled to extend the celebration, allowing even more guests to experience it."

100 Years of Magic is centered at the Disney-MGM Studios where a 122-foot tall Sorcerer's Hat greets guests coming down Hollywood Boulevard. Also at the park, the "Walt Disney: One Man's Dream" attraction showcases memorabilia from the Walt Disney Archives that never before have been available to the public. The celebration also includes more live entertainment than ever before, featuring four exciting parades, plus new shows and attractions across property.

raidermatt
09-18-2002, 01:22 PM
Folks, if ever some doubted that WDW management is powerless then this little tidbit should relieve that. Frankly, I remember several of us being questioned on the returns of "cuts".
Now come on, Scoop. The "power" in this case, belongs to the guests, not any management group. If WDW management had the power, they would be able to get what they wanted before plummeting attendance forced Burbank to allow changes to be made.

I was one of those who said the cuts WOULD return, that they were a necessary reaction to events beyond their control. I only changed my tune when the outside forces began to relent, yet the most important cuts (hours, EE, etc) were not only not returned, but deepened.


I really liked the Hunchback show, and am disappointed its leaving. However, I don't really have a handle on how popular it was, so if the answer to that is "not very", then I can't blame them for closing it, though once again, there needs to be a replacement.

My Hunchback comments pretty much apply to Tarzan as well, though its a little more puzzleing given the "not enough to do" criticisms of AK. Or have those criticisms waned due to DR?

If the schedule for EE is correct, having MK on Sunday is probably an effort to balance the crowds, which makes sense. Why make Saturday more crowded by having EE on Saturday?

EE is a nice add back for some folks, but if its coupled with 2 attractions shutting down, and a parade schedule being decreased, its still hard to get too excited.

The Epcot thing has been reported by Scoop as well as Screamscape and others for the last couple of months. Until we get any details as to how much money it is, and how it will be spent, its just too hard to make a judgement.

As AV points out, the name "Gemini" is quite ominous...

Bob O
09-18-2002, 01:24 PM
Thanks for the info hopemax!!

All Aboard
09-18-2002, 01:34 PM
Y EE HAAAAAAAAA!

I feel somewhat personally responsible, with numerous emails, phone calls, and mentioning it to just about every CM I ran into or got on the phone. I just knew there was enormous pressure on them for the return. I just didn't think they would listen. Color me wrong on this one. Turns out it was popular after all, eh? What fantastic news!

Bittersweet, though, as we lose an absolutely fantastic stage show in Hunchback. You bet your bottom dollar I'll be in the audience for the final Sep 28th show.

PS hows about another clue Mr. Voice? oh, wait, I think I figured it out. It's that "seperate WS & FW thing" isn't it?

Bob O
09-18-2002, 01:35 PM
I cant disagree with raidermatt's post. But from my own personnel experience every time i went to Huncback, always twice pertrip it wasalways busy. But i realize that isnt a proper way to judge how busy the show was but we always got there early to make sure we had good seats and it was always a good sized crowd.
Now if only disney could make a animated film again with as good a sound track!!!
And im jealous, i wish i could see it again live but will have to watch my taped footage instead.

Lesley
09-18-2002, 01:37 PM
%^%&*^(*^&)(*)*!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just a little personal rant because I've never seen Tarzan Rocks or the Hunchback Show....these are the last couple of remnants from my "New things to do at WDW" list! But then, I guess that's part of the reason they're being discontinued....I wasn't the only one who didn't go it seems. Not for a lack of wanting to on my part...just our particular way of touring (we pick a couple old favorites to see and maybe one or two new things each time we go to a park.....)

I did see a preview for Treasure Planet yesterday (on the Monsters DVD....my 2yo was completely enchanted with Boo...heck, she is Boo...only blonde!) and was wondering if they might change the Tarzan show to a Treasure Planet show..from what I could tell they could use the same extreme sports sort of format.

I really wish I could just hop in the car and head to WDW for a quick trip to see these before they end! Hmmmm...I'm free this weekend. If only we lived in SC.....

It is upsetting to see things go. And I'm really unhappy about the idea of splitting Epcot as AV is hinting. Sounds like a positively hideous idea unless seperate admissions are done on a wristband system where we can still pass freely from one area of the park to another. But that's for another thread...

Anyway...I'm thrilled to hear that some form of ee is being returned. Though I think it would have been much more cost effective for them to do it only at MK or at MK and MGM (Epcot's attendance is low and AK opens early enough anyway. At this point only MK is really essential to us (but, hey, if we can manage to get up the others are really cool too....my kids have turned out to be more morning challenged than I am though...)

mjstaceyuofm
09-18-2002, 01:50 PM
p.s. when thinking "Gemini" don't get too carried away with the "two parks" idea. Think instead about the time period for the constellation Gemini. Next spring...Oh this just keeps getting better and better! I'm totally up for a thread that grows to 100 posts in a short period of time.

Bob O
09-18-2002, 01:55 PM
TheDscoop-I was one of the people who stated they wouldnt stay onsite without EE. And as long as it is in operation when i return i will stay onsite. For me and my family that perk is worth the extra cost of staying onsite!!! Im not happ with Hunchback closing but im very happy about the return of EE!!!

EUROPA
09-18-2002, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Bob O
For me and my family that perk is worth the extra cost of staying onsite!!! Im not happ with Hunchback closing but im very happy about the return of EE!!!

Feel the exact same way Bob...If it's still there for our visit in Nov. For those of us the wrote letters, called, emailed or spoke to managers at Disney this is a victory. Hunchback was a show that we had not seen either but were planning on seeing it when we go in Nov...too bad. Lets hope this is just the start of good things at Disney. I've got my eye on shinny new car # 2 if this sort of thing keeps up, which is a huge step up from my car #3



back to the Gemini thing...so it's not the two park idea?

hopemax
09-18-2002, 02:15 PM
You know what I can't help thinking. 2 admissions to Epcot would be away to sneak around that "value" equation thing. Parks like AK and the Studios look small when they go up against rosters like Epcot or the Magic Kingdom. But compare them to just Future World or just World Showcase, it's not so bad.

And for the most part we wouldn't see much of a difference. AP's, LOS passes, park hopper pass people would continue to visit the park in the same manner that they always have (well, maybe a little price jump since there will be 5 gates and not four but I'm sure they can pass that off with a yearly "inflation" price hike). It's the one day visitors, that will see the most change.

It would be another nail in the coffin that the old way is dead. It would definetly change the future generation's definition of "complete" park.

raidermatt
09-18-2002, 02:19 PM
Now granted Matt my little zinger was nothing more than a to those folks who were so confident that EE was gone forever. But at the same time, it's not like a band of disgruntled guests stormed the gates of Burbank and laid seige on the joint until EE was returned.

You're right, the band didn't lay seige. Instead, they just decided to go elsewhere, which was the attack that WDW could not withstand.

...and once a ball gets rolling, momentum is much easier to increase than if it were stationary...don't be surprised to see these efforts soon grow into "additions" rather than just "restorations"...
I can't argue, and I sincerely hope you are right.


I'm still not completely clear on exactly what is verified, but what bothers me is the cut of Hunchback, Tarzan and reduction of ToD.

If you really want to WOW me by giving me an ice cream cone, you don't kick me in the shin while you do it...

DisneyKidds
09-18-2002, 03:00 PM
If you really want to WOW me by giving me an ice cream cone, you don't kick me in the shin while you do it...

Only a kick in the shin if you are looking for a kick in the shin. I like to think we are looking at an 'out with the old, in with the new' situation. Granted, we don't know what the new is, but be patient. (Silence - as DK waits for all those people who used to say 'what makes you believe EE will return?', 'what makes you believe anything will get better?').

Frankly, Huntchback, Tarzan and ToD were probably some of the least popular shows. Yes, they had fans. Yes, I liked them. However, many people didn't feel the need to see them again and again, or see them at all. Last time we saw ToD we watched more people trying to get around it than sitting and watching. Plus, it isn't going away, just shortening/going to one route. As for Huntchback - yes, it had a more talented cast than Beauty and the Beast, but it just didn't attract the same crowd. Huntchback always had fewer shows, yet it still didn't command SRO like Beauty and the Beast does most times we are there - and Beauty and the Beast is a much larger theatre. Tarzan just never seemed to catch on, but we really liked it.

While the Tarzan theatre is tucked away and could remain empty without being obvious, it is hard to imagine them not putting this asset to work. As for the Huntchback theatre, it is too much a part of that end of NY Avenue to go empty for too long. With the hints and allegations scoop is floating I bet we see some new entertainment in these venues. When, I don't know. What makes me believe that? The same sense that made me believe hours would come back and EE would some day return. Granted, we aren't all the way there, we actually have a long way to go, but it is a start, a spark, something Figment might get excited about.

Lets not forget that todays news is on the heels of the knowledge that for Sept and the first half of October (at least) we have MK hours until 8:00, with some form of nighttime entertainment, be it FITS or Spectro, most nights during the week, in the off season.

Right now there is still plenty of room in car 2, but it might start to fill up quick in the not too distant future ;). Don't wait too long.......

d-r
09-18-2002, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by raidermatt
My Hunchback comments pretty much apply to Tarzan as well, though its a little more puzzleing given the "not enough to do" criticisms of AK. Or have those criticisms waned due to DR?



No I said earlier in this thread that they would have to replace Tarzan because they can't afford to loose attractions at AK.

raidermatt
09-18-2002, 03:31 PM
. I like to think we are looking at an 'out with the old, in with the new' situation.

Well, 20,000 Leagues and the The Skyway were "outed" quite some time ago...

Then there's Timekeeper and CoP...

True, its easier to stick a new show in than to build another attraction, but there's only so many times we should allow ourselves to be fooled before we stop assuming a closure will be replaced.

I think I said I don't have a handle on the relative popularity of the shows, and therefore, accept their closure based on that, regardless of how much I liked them. HOWEVER, if the goal is to WOW, these are still negatives that diminish the WOW. There really is no logical justification for not classifying these as negatives at this time. Given the desparate times WDW is in, and the apparent realization that they need some WOWs, this is questionable timing at best.

The decrease in ToD is a lesser negative, but a negative nonethe less. One of the nice things about this parade was that we didn't have to get their 3 hours before it started to get a good spot. During busy periods, 45 minutes to an hour was ok for a prime spot. Now, the crowds will double. If the decrease is only for slow periods, like most of the next 6 months, it wouldn't be a problem at all. But that's not what they said, and again, past actions provide no basis for assumptions.

Only a kick in the shin if you are looking for a kick in the shin.
I didn't ask for the kick, they provided it. I suppose I could choose to ignore it, but that's not my style...

raidermatt
09-18-2002, 03:35 PM
D-R, sorry, I didn't really mean to direct that question at anyone in particular. I agree with you, that AK shouldn't be losing any attractions.

However, its possible that the attendance figures show a bump due to the new additions, and WDW feels AK can lose an attraction like Tarzan without much impact. (Again, that may just be a bump relative to the other parks, meaning not as large a decrease)

Peter Pirate
09-18-2002, 03:38 PM
Mr. Kidds, I'm actually with Matt on this one. It seems like a high price to pay for getting EE back. I disagree that Huntchback, Tarzan & ToD were not popular. As you know we visit often and these are always on our agenda and the shows are always quite full. Even this last Sunday with only about 500( ;) ) people at MGM, Huntchback was still quite full. A ToD reduction I can live with (but it better not go away).

Also, let me qualify. While I love Huntchback & Tarzan it would be much easier to let go if we knew there were to be a quality replacement, but just cancelling stinks of the Doug fiasco...What's in there now (he asks rhetorically)???

Also, on a personal note Mr. Kidds, I no way believe the cast of Huntcback is more talented than B&TB. Belle has much more difficult songs to sing (musically) & the current Gaston is absolutely awesome. The cast for Huntchback is larger & more are miked, but in no way are they better...End of my purely subjective rant... :D

Oh, is the Tarzan cancellation confirmed?
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

Luckymommyx2
09-18-2002, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by EUROPA
Feel the exact same way Bob...If it's still there for our visit in Nov. For those of us the wrote letters, called, emailed or spoke to managers at Disney this is a victory. Hunchback was a show that we had not seen either but were planning on seeing it when we go in Nov...too bad. Lets hope this is just the start of good things at Disney. I've got my eye on shinny new car # 2 if this sort of thing keeps up, which is a huge step up from my car #3



back to the Gemini thing...so it's not the two park idea?


Okay, forgive me for my ignorance but what is the car #2 and car #3 thing all about? I've seen it mentioned once or twice and refrained from asking but this time I will risk looking stupid.

hopemax
09-18-2002, 04:00 PM
Luckymommy,

Check out the #3 "Important" and the top of the message list and all will be revealed.

Luckymommyx2
09-18-2002, 04:01 PM
Thanks for the quick reply!!

DisneyKidds
09-18-2002, 04:03 PM
I disagree that Huntchback, Tarzan & ToD were not popular. As you know we visit often and these are always on our agenda and the shows are always quite full. Even this last Sunday with only about 500( ) people at MGM, Huntchback was still quite full.

I didn't say they weren't popular, just not as popular as some other shows. Different folks, different experiences I guess. We didn't hit HB every trip, but when we did getting a good seat wasn't hard. Actually, we were never turned away. This can't be said of Beauty and the Beast which is in a much larger theatre. ToD was not a must for us either, but we did try to see it. Given the number of folks who probably visit WDW more often than the average Joe that have contributed to this thread and said they have never seen some of these shows I think it is safe to say 'not as popular'.

Yes, losing these shows is a negative. Yes, good points about other take aways without replacements. However, I feel that we will see something to replace these items. No, I have no proof. Not even a rumor. No, I don't know when. However, it doesn't make much sense that while Disney is taking steps to improve the guest experience they would take away this entertainment without some plan for making sure there is enough to do for all the guests they hope to lure back. (how is that for a run-on :crazy: ). I can be patient, as I was six months ago, a year ago, a............ Yeah, it sucks to have to be patient, but that's life.

DVC-Landbaron
09-18-2002, 04:59 PM
Also, let me qualify. While I love Huntchback & Tarzan it would be much easier to let go if we knew there were to be a quality replacement, but just cancelling stinks of the Doug fiasco...What's in there now (he asks rhetorically)???Was this quote from me? Did someone break into my computer and rip-off my files of standard replies to Mr. Kidds!! It sounds like it!! It reads EXACTLY like something I would say!!

But NO!!! It was the Pirate!! Welcome to your new car Mr. Pirate!!! I knew it was only a matter of time!!!! ;)

Peter Pirate
09-18-2002, 05:38 PM
Oh Landbaron...You know I'm not in your car, I could never be seen in a Crumudgeonmobile! Under the current scenerio I'm in car #2, but then I don't think anyone could pass muster of the silly litmus of car #1, that was accepted by the mods without a vote...:rolleyes:

I am just able to look at the picture from each different perspective as it pops up. You see Eisner as bad, ergo current Disney bad, ergo everything new is bad (with some glaring exceptions that you normally point out go back to the Eisner/Wells days - Note: for some reason you didn't use the Wells mantra in your most recent debate with Scoop on the Saratoga thread;) ). Strange...

Just because I take issue with the decision to cancel a great show without announcing a replacement hardly means I've put away my rose colored glasses...Which BTW is a reference to the rather unkind portrayal of moi that you & Lesley shared in an earlier thread. I really shouldn't be talking to either of you...

As for MGM, I think they should be adding quality shows, not taking them away...

:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

DVC-Landbaron
09-18-2002, 06:01 PM
Peter, you really do bust me up!!! And I agree that not many people get your sense of humor!! Anyway...You see Eisner as bad, ergo current Disney bad, ergo everything new is bad (with some glaring exceptions that you normally point out go back to the Eisner/Wells days - Note: for some reason you didn't use the Wells mantra in your most recent debate with Scoop on the Saratoga thread ). Strange...Nothing strange about it. I never held to that train of thought (one of the few areas where the frozen one and I disagree). I contend that Ei$ner has been inept from day one!! He was held in check by Wells, Katzenburg, etc. and the strength of the company made it very hard for him to destroy it overnight!! But it started downhill from the very first minute!! It just took a while to catch up with him!! Maybe CEO of Disney is his personal “PETER PRINCIPLE”!! ;)

Which BTW is a reference to the rather unkind portrayal of moi that you & Lesley shared in an earlier thread. I really shouldn't be talking to either of you... Peter!! I didn’t mean to offend!! If I apologize can we be friends again?

As for MGM, I think they should be adding quality shows, not taking them away...Substitute WDW for MGM and you have my philosophy - EXACTLY!!!



APOLOGY TIME!!!!

Peter!! I sincerely apologize!! I am very, very sorry!! Really! I’m am very sorry that I pointed out your rose-colored-glasses to everyone on these Boards.

OK!! There!!! Friends again!!!???? :bounce:

EUROPA
09-18-2002, 06:19 PM
I have to agree with about 99 % of what Baron and AV says not because I can't think for myself or I'm a follower but because they are right. I hold back that one percent when it comes to personal onions on some things. I think the Baron is right on about almost everyone of Esiner's decisions, they have been bad. If he did not have those strong creative and management types back covering his knife work in the early 90's he would have been long gone by now. There is no reason to close an attraction and not replace it with something of equal or grater show. I don't accept it and neither does Baron. There are some people here that do and I'm not sure why.

DVC-Landbaron
09-18-2002, 06:24 PM
There are some people here that do and I'm not sure why.
Something to do with the sun glasses they sell in the Keys (that rosey color, I suppose) and the drinking water in Tennessee!! (or maybe Law School muddles your brain!!) :cool:

d-r
09-18-2002, 07:43 PM
Hey y'all,

I'm worn out and I don't want to get into anyone's arguments, but I do want to tell you my take on this, which is a little different than what I've read so far.

I don't think it is a matter of trading hunchback, tarzan, and 1/2 of tod for early entry. Actually, if I thought it was I'd get ticked, because I hardly ever used early entry (we have gone to mgm a couple of times early, but that's it I think, besides avoiding the EE park).

No, I think we are trading HOND for B&B. Right now, the shows do not run every day. If it were up to me, I'd keep it like that. I like the HOND show as much as BAB, and I think that by alternating them it gives guests a chance to see either or both with planning. But I am going to conceed the BAB is the more popular of the two with most guests. Think about it, BAB has a lot more broad appeal than HOND, plus the DVD is about to come out. For most guests, BAB would be the choice. It also seems to me that it is more economical to show one show every day than it is to have two shows on separate days - one crew, etc. If there is a budget crunch, this move makes sense to me, even if it isn't my preference.

There will still be one stretch of TOD, basically, this cuts it in half. I think that is a really good compromise, because guests who haven't seen it or want to see it still can. People were starting to grumble about TOD, and I've read several posts on the internet where people complained that it got in the way of visiting world showcase because the area wasn't set up well for a parade. Personally, I sort of liked it. I really liked TON a lot, but I always felt that TOD was sort of a cheap makeover, that wasn't actually as good as the original. TON began in Oct. of 1999 in the beginning of the mellinium celebration, so it has basically been going on now for 3 years. This seems like a good compromise to me as it phased out.

I'm not sure what we are "trading" Tarzan for. I can't imagine that it is a good thing to loose an attraction at AK. But I don't think it is a trade off for EE. I think the trade off for early entry is actually an earlier closing time. Personally, I'd rather have the hour in the evening and close later, but it is hard to market closing times or promote them as a perk for resort guests.

All in all, though, I think these were pretty good moves, along the lines of scoop's challenge - these are reasonable moves that fit with what the majority of guests probably want while balancing what is reasonably possible. Even if it isn't what I may have preferred personally, I think these are very good moves for the resort in general.

DR

Bob O
09-18-2002, 09:23 PM
At this point wdw shouldnt be removing anything without a replacement to take its place right away. As matt said 20k is still empty and they still have attractions like Star Tours that are very dated and need to be replaced. They need to put back what was stupidly removed like EE and not remove attractions but need to be adding attractions if they want attendance to increase, to give people a reason to return. What a great pr campaign-Come back to wdw we are getting rid of our cutbacks(forget HB/TOD/)
So disney gives with one hand but takes away with the other so what could have been a total positive development is tarnished as maybe a break even deal when all is considered.

wdhatter
09-18-2002, 10:33 PM
Just so you guys know, Tarzan is NOT confirmed to be closing. I haven't heard it around the Entertainment Department (while I have heard all the rest). Also, it is NOT mentioned on the press release from Disney that someone posted earlier. Hunchback was mentioned on it.

As for me, I'm very glad to see Hunchback go. I really didn't like the pacing of the show. Also, I'm surprised it's lasted this long to be quite honest. The movie didn't even gross $100 million at the box office, and to Disney, that's pretty much a major disappointment. The only reason why it's lived so long is that there hasn't been a decent musical movie made since to replace it. Mulan and Hercules while not awesome, went straight to a parade scenario instead of a show scenario.

Although I haven't heard anything as of now to replace Hunchback, I really can't see them keeping it empty for too long. They know there isn't much in that back section of the park to draw guests back there, so another show in there will help. Although, I can see them waiting at least until after the first of the year since the Osborne Lights will be up soon to get people back there until January.

Planogirl
09-18-2002, 10:58 PM
I have a feeling that these shows would have closed or been cut back regardless of the fate of Early Entry. Disney regularly phases out old shows and attractions and always has, the difference being that they tend to stay shuttered now.

But I'm so glad that Early Entry is back! I will be looking into staying on site again because yes, it is that important to us. There is something of substance that once again sets staying on site apart from International Drive or Kissimmee.

Another Voice
09-18-2002, 11:10 PM
The science of corporate budgeting is the trade off – and that’s what happened here.

One show goes away, another runs seven days a week.

One show goes away, suddenly a few more characters appear for an hour.

A park opens an hour early, hopefully bookings and merchandise sales respond (and if they don’t, guess what happens).

I doubt we’ve gaining anything by all of this, but at least The Company has slowed the pace at which they’re digging their hole.

The financial demands on WDW have not changed. ABC still can’t attract viewers, California Adventure still can’t draw a crowd, The Disney Stores still can’t bring in the shoppers, and ‘Reign of Fire’ didn’t sell any tickets. While it's very encouraging to see the first hints of creativity from some management, the corporate greed is as strong as ever.

Lesley
09-18-2002, 11:13 PM
Mr. Pirate, I am very sorry to have offended you (and your rose colored glasses :D ). Can I blame it on the Landbaron that he used your name in an accusatory tone? :Pinkbounc :Pinkbounc ;)

Truthfully, it isn't often that we agree...and, well, I don't think you'd appreciate being told your comments sounded like a post from...hmm...let's say Walt's Frozen Head, would you? (sorry, not to drag in the innocent on this one....) But I also can appreciate your point of view, even if I don't agree! That's what I love about this board....everyone...all the different personalities....that's what keep it fun!

And maybe I'm just a little upset that my own personal "rose colored vision training" regimen is beginning to show. I'm taking first timers in December and really want to show the bright side of it all....plus, as I begin to take a more zen approach to everyday life I often remind myself that everything happens for a reason, for some divine purpose....whatever that may be. It's all good. (my mantra....) Even if that good is the end of WDW (oh, my....I'm sure I've slaughtered a sacred cow there....) So be it.

d-r, I somewhat agree about TOD...its not nearly as good as TON, the music editing job was downright ****ty, and it was, imo, completely unnecessary to screw it up like that. I really don't care if they get rid of this abomination (though I enjoy it from the pov that its the closest I'll get right now to seeing TON). Fact is, they only ****ed it up in the first place because some idiot got it into his head that "every park should have a new parade" for the "celebration". Screw that....TOD isn't a new parade. Its a **** over of the old parade, which was awesome. (End of rant, back to meditation....really should send a letter about that one though....oh, and sorry about my language, rough day, old habit...I'm counting on the filter to censor it...)

Okay, back to doing the bills.....only reason I really posted was to apologize to Peter Pirate!

WDW2002
09-18-2002, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by mjstaceyuofm
Here's what I dredged up from the financial pages....
I tried finding this on their website but couldn't. Can you please post a link to it??

laf
09-19-2002, 03:17 AM
This June I met a Florida dance teacher who has a friend that was hired for a new show for WDW--she was told it had aerialists in it--so I had a feeling we were losing a current show. (I guessed Tarzan at the time, as that stage is set for aerialists.)

Btw, does anyone remember the Pocahontas show that Hunchback replaced? I was sad to see that one wrap, but then I saw Hunchback, and totally loved it!