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View Full Version : Fantasy/ Dream to summer in Europe?


stephent92
01-16-2011, 05:49 AM
Now I have hear (and by that I mean somebody who might know, but it certainly isn't guaranteed) that the powers that be at DCL are thinking about moving one of the 'mega' ships to Europe for the summer in 2 years time, and bringing the magic to do Port Canaveral cruises and New York itineraries.

I am told that this would be to:
* Maximise potentially lucrative transatlantic cruises (4* per season)
* 'Switch-up' the ship in the Med to encourage repeat cruisers

I also heard that they are looking at alternative itineraries for the Wonder in future years on the West Coast.

Like I say, I have no idea of how factual this is but thought that I would share it. Some of it makes sense to me - the Med does seem to be more profitable at the moment - but is it over saturated?

mmouse37
01-16-2011, 08:04 AM
Now I have hear (and by that I mean somebody who might know, but it certainly isn't guaranteed) that the powers that be at DCL are thinking about moving one of the 'mega' ships to Europe for the summer in 2 years time, and bringing the magic to do Port Canaveral cruises and New York itineraries.

I am told that this would be to:
* Maximise potentially lucrative transatlantic cruises (4* per season)
* 'Switch-up' the ship in the Med to encourage repeat cruisers

I also heard that they are looking at alternative itineraries for the Wonder in future years on the West Coast.

Like I say, I have no idea of how factual this is but thought that I would share it. Some of it makes sense to me - the Med does seem to be more profitable at the moment - but is it over saturated?

I guess anything is possible....but currently they are under contract with Port Canaveral for at least 3 more years to sail out of PC......that was one of the provisions for the terminal enhancements. They could probably due it after their contract is up....or I guess they could break their contract with a substantial penalty I am sure...

This is from an article I found:

Disney Cruise Line to stay at Port Canaveral

Last Wednesday, Disney Cruise Line announced that it has finalized an agreement with Port Canaveral to extend the company's current contract for 15 additional years. DCL will use Port Canaveral as the home port for its two new, as-yet-unnamed ships scheduled for completion in 2011 and 2012, at least through 2014.
Under the agreement, the Canaveral Port Authority will make enhancements to the DCL port facility, including extending the dock, enlarging and enhancing the terminal building and building a multi-level parking structure. The enhancments will be needed since the new ships are 150 feet longer, 15 feet wider and three decks taller than the existing Disney Wonder and Disney Magic ships. The new ships will each carry 4,000 passengers, or 1,300 more than the current ships. The deadline for the port facility upgrades and construction of the parking structure is October 1, 2010. The cost of the upgrades will be paid for by a new, $7-per-trip charge on Disney Cruise Line tickets, starting in 2010.
There's no word yet on where the Wonder and Magic will end up once the new ships arrive and start sailing out of Port Canaveral. Early front-runners include Los Angeles and the Mediterranean, as the Magic has already visited each for a summer, and returns to the West Coast again in a couple of months.
DCL has also agreed that its ships will visit Port Canaveral at least 150 times per year through the end of the agreement. That means that, regardless of where its ships are deployed, at least two should be based out of the port at any one time, assuming that one runs 7-night cruises and one runs 3- and 4-night cruises. Of course, that schedule is highly beneficial to Disney, as the port's proximity to Walt Disney World provides the ability to sell land-and-sea packages. Porting the other two ships to Los Angeles and Barcelona, Spain would provide that same opportunity for Disneyland Resort in Anaheim and Disneyland Resort Paris.
In a statement, Disney Cruise Line President Tom McAlpin said that "We are very excited to call Port Canaveral our home and look forward to bringing our new ships here. The new enhancements being made to our terminal will provide guests an even more seamless transition from land to sea."

MJ

DVC_Chris
01-16-2011, 08:41 AM
Another thing is that the Transatlantic cruises are anything but lucrative, and usually have heavy discounting.

mkmommy
01-16-2011, 08:47 AM
I have no info but I am just amazed that prices have not started to drop for summer 2011 European cruises, just not DCL but all the other cruise lines too, they must be selling.

There are at least 4 huge ships out of Barcelona in August doing basically the same 7 day med cruise( NCL Epic, RCL Liberty, the new Carnival ship and the DCL Magic) and the only discount I have seen so far is RCL was offering a $100 OBC.:confused3

clten
01-16-2011, 08:58 AM
Another thing is that the Transatlantic cruises are anything but lucrative, and usually have heavy discounting.

I agree. Seriously, if someone was trying to tell me they were "in the know" and said that TA cruises are lucrative, I'd have to discount everything else they said. This repositioning cruise (for all cruise lines, not just DCL) is at best a break even proposition. The ships hardly sail at capacity -- even if the cabins are full, they are usually mostly 2 people not families as in normal cruises. While I LOVE all the sea days, this is not the norm so the client base to fill the ships is smaller and harder to do -- leading to discounted pricing.

We already know that the new ships are tied to PC for a few years (as MJ quoted the original announcement). They would have to pay up significant penalties to move them anywhere else since the port paid for upgrades to accomodate them. Even after the first few years, I imagine that the new ships are going to remain in PC as these itineraries are the bread and butter of the cruise industry.

drparoo
01-16-2011, 09:04 AM
I would love to do a TA cruise. The problem is that our family can never do the timing. My oldest son likes the ports best but my younger two just like the sea days......and all I need it a verandah. I can't imagine a more relaxing vacation.

truck1
01-16-2011, 10:45 AM
Consdering that
A the Dream and Fantasy are both tied by name to PC for at least 3 years at this point, and (see MMs post)
B the Magic was heavily dicounted in the Med this past year and
C DCL scrapped at least 1 complete itinerary for 2010 and started from scratch

I doubt that the Dream or the Fantasy will go anywhere near the med any time in the next 4 years at least. Theyd have to sell out the Magic for a while to even consider using either of the bigger ships out there.And that has not happened. Theres really no justification. This is a quote from the Orlando Sentinel, regarding the Magics recent stay in the Med
"But the new markets, too, could prove troublesome. A potential red flag was raised earlier this year when Disney reported soft bookings for a series of European sailings aboard the Magic.

To make Europe work as a permanent home, experts say Disney will have to better market its cruises to European vacationers — rather than relying on North Americans traveling abroad — during the slower "shoulder seasons" that precede and follow the peak summer period."

What would be more likely, is that the bigger ships at least, would stay in Pc, simply due to the number of people they can move. The last 4 cruises Ive been on, and this is the supposed slow time of year,(early sept, and Oct) have been completely booked, on both the Magic and Wonder. It would only make sense from a profit standpoint to keep the bigger ships where there is a direct tie in with the parks. Eventually, I think well see more new ships, prob in the next 2-3 years,(announced) of equal to or bigger then the Dream class. The Magic I think, youll see spend some time in different places, testing the waters so to speak, of different ports. I dont think youll see her tied down in the near future.

stephent92
01-16-2011, 11:07 AM
Don't shoot me down - I'm just passing on some gossip! :cool1:

Just a quick point on the whole 'home port' thing. Most ships have a home port - The QM2's home port is Southampton but visits infrequently. The term 'Home Port' doesn't mean very much - just like having the ships flagged as Bohemian. Remember the Magic and it's first summer in the Med - she was still home ported in Port Canaveral :confused3.

Away from the location issue and onto capacity. Almost all cruise ships sail full. The lines use discounts and yield management to fill their ships (Disney does not do the latter at the moment).
In a statement, Disney Cruise Line President Tom McAlpin said that "We are very excited to call Port Canaveral our home and look forward to bringing our new ships here. The new enhancements being made to our terminal will provide guests an even more seamless transition from land to sea."


Remember that Tom McAlpine is no longer anything to do with DCL. Plus, the reason that they are putting ships in LA and the Med is to service their other parks/ interests in addition to varying itineraries. There is no reason to assume that they are not attempting to offer the 'Disney Park and Cruise' option in other areas.

All speculation, I know. But interesting none the less IMO.

pjacobi
01-16-2011, 02:28 PM
According to the captain on the Wonder, the 3 & 4 day cruises are the most profitable for Disney. That's why the Dream is replacing the Wonder.

The larger capacity on the Dream allows more sales on high profit umbrella drinks and such to generate even more profit for the company.

While a Europe or Hawaii cruise might seem attractive, Disney has a responsibility to shareholders to position the ship where it can make the most profit.


-Paul

janiebubble
01-16-2011, 02:34 PM
I have no info but I am just amazed that prices have not started to drop for summer 2011 European cruises, just not DCL but all the other cruise lines too, they must be selling.

There are at least 4 huge ships out of Barcelona in August doing basically the same 7 day med cruise( NCL Epic, RCL Liberty, the new Carnival ship and the DCL Magic) and the only discount I have seen so far is RCL was offering a $100 OBC.:confused3

Disney have been marketing the cruise line in the Uk to an extent they don't seem to have done before. It wasn't what prompted me to book - but it may be catching the eye of Europeans. Add to that the credit crunch which makes a $150 dollar airfare to Barcelona very appealing when compared with $1000 to Orlando in August this year and many of us Brits may be using the Magic to get our Disney fix this summer!

sissy_ib
01-16-2011, 02:41 PM
Don't shoot me down - I'm just passing on some gossip! :cool1:

Just a quick point on the whole 'home port' thing. Most ships have a home port - The QM2's home port is Southampton but visits infrequently. The term 'Home Port' doesn't mean very much - just like having the ships flagged as Bohemian. Remember the Magic and it's first summer in the Med - she was still home ported in Port Canaveral :confused3.

Away from the location issue and onto capacity. Almost all cruise ships sail full. The lines use discounts and yield management to fill their ships (Disney does not do the latter at the moment).


Remember that Tom McAlpine is no longer anything to do with DCL. Plus, the reason that they are putting ships in LA and the Med is to service their other parks/ interests in addition to varying itineraries. There is no reason to assume that they are not attempting to offer the 'Disney Park and Cruise' option in other areas.

All speculation, I know. But interesting none the less IMO.

I don't remember the numbers, but Disney is contracted to have the 2 new ships in Port Canaveral a certain number of days a year. So they cant just move the ships and say they are still home ported in Canaveral. There is so much speculation on where Disney will cruise it's not even amusing at this point. Disney has not even confirmed if it the Magic is going back to Europe in 2012. Everything that is not on the DCL website is rumor and conjecture.

truck1
01-16-2011, 04:39 PM
Don't shoot me down - I'm just passing on some gossip! :cool1:

Just a quick point on the whole 'home port' thing. Most ships have a home port - The QM2's home port is Southampton but visits infrequently. The term 'Home Port' doesn't mean very much - just like having the ships flagged as Bohemian. Remember the Magic and it's first summer in the Med - she was still home ported in Port Canaveral :confused3.

Away from the location issue and onto capacity. Almost all cruise ships sail full. The lines use discounts and yield management to fill their ships (Disney does not do the latter at the moment).


Remember that Tom McAlpine is no longer anything to do with DCL. Plus, the reason that they are putting ships in LA and the Med is to service their other parks/ interests in addition to varying itineraries. There is no reason to assume that they are not attempting to offer the 'Disney Park and Cruise' option in other areas.

All speculation, I know. But interesting none the less IMO.


Dont get me wrong, were not flaming you. Especially me. Just pointing things out.
You are correct, Tom McAlpin was the pres at the time, but the contract still stands as written. All he did was give us the verbage from the contract.

They could be trying in different areas to offer the park/cruise options that are very popular here in Fl. The only problem is that when the Magic is in the Med, shes not gettin the passengers that are hoped for. If they cant turn a profit, they prob will not leave her there. theyll find somewhere else to send her.

truck1
01-16-2011, 04:47 PM
I don't remember the numbers, but Disney is contracted to have the 2 new ships in Port Canaveral a certain number of days a year. So they cant just move the ships and say they are still home ported in Canaveral. There is so much speculation on where Disney will cruise it's not even amusing at this point. Disney has not even confirmed if it the Magic is going back to Europe in 2012. Everything that is not on the DCL website is rumor and conjecture.

This is the short version of the DCL/Port contract from the Orlando sentinel. (April of 08)

Port Canaveral waives $400,000 penalty against Disney Cruise Line
April 04, 2008|By Jason Garcia, Sentinel Staff Writer
Port Canaveral allowed Disney Cruise Line to avoid a payment of about $400,000 during negotiations on a long-term contract that were completed last month.

Disney was facing the six-figure penalty because its cruise ships were not going to make enough calls at the Brevard County port this year.

Stan Payne, the port's chief executive officer, called it a small concession in exchange for securing a new contract that ensures Disney ships will continue sailing out of Brevard for the next 15 years. Disney's original deal with Canaveral would have expired this summer.
Payne said the new long-term contract will generate $200 million in revenue.

"This was an opportunity to clean the slate," he said this week. "By cleaning the slate, it allowed things to move forward."

With the contract signed, Canaveral is scrambling to get started on more than $30 million in construction upgrades needed to handle two new ships Disney is having built in Germany. Each will be three decks taller and carry about 1,300 more passengers than Disney's existing ships, and the company has committed to basing the new liners in Brevard until at least the end of 2014.

The first new ship could arrive as early as February 2011, according to notes from a meeting of port officials and Disney executives, with the second vessel to follow in early 2012. But Disney Cruise Line spokeswoman Christi Erwin Donnan said it is too early to set specific arrival months because the ships are still being designed and construction has yet to begin.

"It's really too premature to nail down an exact delivery date," Donnan said.

The company would not discuss specifics of its negotiations with Port Canaveral. But Donnan said, "In the end, both our needs and Port Canaveral's were met through the new agreement."

The impending payment to the port was one of many issues that came up during the negotiations, which lasted for more than a year.

Under its initial contract, Disney's two ships had to make at least 150 combined calls at Canaveral each year. If it fell short, Disney had to pay Canaveral to cover the lost revenue -- or allow the port to open Disney's nearly $30 million terminal to rival cruise lines.

The new pact has the same requirement, with one exception Disney ships have to make only 139 stops at Canaveral this year. (2008)

The reason: Disney has already committed to sending one of its ships to the West Coast from May to August. With one ship sailing out of Los Angeles for the summer, Disney would not have met its 150-call obligation at Canaveral.

Disney ran into the same problem last year when it sent a ship to Europe for the summer. But it had to pay the port only about $100,000, because it had made more than 150 stops in previous years. It would not have had a similar cushion this year.

Payne said Disney's "shortage payment" this time around would have been about $400,000. But he said both sides ultimately agreed that they did not want to begin a new long-term deal with a penalty already built into the first year.
"It made no sense to Disney, nor did it to me," he said.

Beyond the payment and the required number of port calls, much of the back and forth during negotiations focused on what terminal improvements were needed for Disney's new mega-liners -- and who would pay for them.

The two sides ultimately agreed that the port would borrow money to finance $22 million in expansions and upgrades. But Disney will guarantee annual payments of $2.4 million -- raised through a $7 round-trip charge to passengers -- to cover the debt.

A terminal budget includes everything from $10,000 to carve out a 40-square-foot "character changing area" to $2 million to ensure a "wow factor."

Canaveral will separately spend as much as $10 million to build a 1,000-space parking garage for Disney guests. It will be connected to the expanded terminal by an elevated walkway.

Payne said he expects the port to sell bonds or obtain a loan to pay for the construction by summer. The work must be completed by Oct. 1, 2010.

Rogillio
01-17-2011, 12:48 PM
This is the short version of the DCL/Port contract from the Orlando sentinel. (April of 08)

Port Canaveral waives $400,000 penalty against Disney Cruise Line
April 04, 2008|By Jason Garcia, Sentinel Staff Writer
Port Canaveral allowed Disney Cruise Line to avoid a payment of about $400,000 during negotiations on a long-term contract that were completed last month.

Disney was facing the six-figure penalty because its cruise ships were not going to make enough calls at the Brevard County port this year.

Stan Payne, the port's chief executive officer, called it a small concession in exchange for securing a new contract that ensures Disney ships will continue sailing out of Brevard for the next 15 years. Disney's original deal with Canaveral would have expired this summer.
Payne said the new long-term contract will generate $200 million in revenue.

"This was an opportunity to clean the slate," he said this week. "By cleaning the slate, it allowed things to move forward."

With the contract signed, Canaveral is scrambling to get started on more than $30 million in construction upgrades needed to handle two new ships Disney is having built in Germany. Each will be three decks taller and carry about 1,300 more passengers than Disney's existing ships, and the company has committed to basing the new liners in Brevard until at least the end of 2014.

The first new ship could arrive as early as February 2011, according to notes from a meeting of port officials and Disney executives, with the second vessel to follow in early 2012. But Disney Cruise Line spokeswoman Christi Erwin Donnan said it is too early to set specific arrival months because the ships are still being designed and construction has yet to begin.

"It's really too premature to nail down an exact delivery date," Donnan said.

The company would not discuss specifics of its negotiations with Port Canaveral. But Donnan said, "In the end, both our needs and Port Canaveral's were met through the new agreement."

The impending payment to the port was one of many issues that came up during the negotiations, which lasted for more than a year.

Under its initial contract, Disney's two ships had to make at least 150 combined calls at Canaveral each year. If it fell short, Disney had to pay Canaveral to cover the lost revenue -- or allow the port to open Disney's nearly $30 million terminal to rival cruise lines.

The new pact has the same requirement, with one exception Disney ships have to make only 139 stops at Canaveral this year. (2008)

The reason: Disney has already committed to sending one of its ships to the West Coast from May to August. With one ship sailing out of Los Angeles for the summer, Disney would not have met its 150-call obligation at Canaveral.

Disney ran into the same problem last year when it sent a ship to Europe for the summer. But it had to pay the port only about $100,000, because it had made more than 150 stops in previous years. It would not have had a similar cushion this year.

Payne said Disney's "shortage payment" this time around would have been about $400,000. But he said both sides ultimately agreed that they did not want to begin a new long-term deal with a penalty already built into the first year.
"It made no sense to Disney, nor did it to me," he said.

Beyond the payment and the required number of port calls, much of the back and forth during negotiations focused on what terminal improvements were needed for Disney's new mega-liners -- and who would pay for them.

The two sides ultimately agreed that the port would borrow money to finance $22 million in expansions and upgrades. But Disney will guarantee annual payments of $2.4 million -- raised through a $7 round-trip charge to passengers -- to cover the debt.

A terminal budget includes everything from $10,000 to carve out a 40-square-foot "character changing area" to $2 million to ensure a "wow factor."

Canaveral will separately spend as much as $10 million to build a 1,000-space parking garage for Disney guests. It will be connected to the expanded terminal by an elevated walkway.

Payne said he expects the port to sell bonds or obtain a loan to pay for the construction by summer. The work must be completed by Oct. 1, 2010.



I see nothing at all in here about which ships need to make the required port calls. It simply stated xx number of port calls per year. Whether that is done by the Magic or Dream or Wonder or Fantasy is not specified.

I can't imagine there is not a clause in the contract that allows Disney to move thier ships around as they see fit and ties thier hands on thier $1.2B investment.

I stand corrected. I just found this:

"The deals are the culmination of a year of negotiations.

In 2011 and 2012, Disney will put both of its mega-size 4,000-passenger ships at Port Canaveral in a deal in which the cruise line will pick up the $22 million cost for improvements to its land-side terminal at the port and construction of a new parking garage.

Under terms of the 15-year deal, the ships will remain at Port Canaveral at least until 2014, at which time Disney has the option to move the ships. At least two of the four Disney ships will remain at Port Canaveral for the duration of the contract."

truck1
01-17-2011, 09:15 PM
No biggie. I had to read it a few times then think about it for a few days after I first saw it. There was an even better article somewhere, and I cant find it now, that basically said that on Christmas Eve or Day, the head of the Port and the head of DCL at the time, were on the phone, and hammered out the basic details.Apparently the port was real close to losing DCL.

mmouse37
01-17-2011, 10:05 PM
I see nothing at all in here about which ships need to make the required port calls. It simply stated xx number of port calls per year. Whether that is done by the Magic or Dream or Wonder or Fantasy is not specified.

I can't imagine there is not a clause in the contract that allows Disney to move thier ships around as they see fit and ties thier hands on thier $1.2B investment.

I stand corrected. I just found this:

"The deals are the culmination of a year of negotiations.

In 2011 and 2012, Disney will put both of its mega-size 4,000-passenger ships at Port Canaveral in a deal in which the cruise line will pick up the $22 million cost for improvements to its land-side terminal at the port and construction of a new parking garage.

Under terms of the 15-year deal, the ships will remain at Port Canaveral at least until 2014, at which time Disney has the option to move the ships. At least two of the four Disney ships will remain at Port Canaveral for the duration of the contract."

Yep....basically what I said in Post #2.

MJ

dursin
01-17-2011, 10:18 PM
Yep....basically what I said in Post #2.

MJ
Yep. If you look at this line from your post:

"DCL has also agreed that its ships will visit Port Canaveral at least 150 times per year through the end of the agreement. That means that, regardless of where its ships are deployed, at least two should be based out of the port at any one time, assuming that one runs 7-night cruises and one runs 3- and 4-night cruises"

...and figure with 52 weeks in a year, you need nearly 3 sailings per week, every week, those two ships aren't going anywhere for a while. Which is GREAT for those of us that live near Port Canaveral. :)

truck1
01-17-2011, 10:34 PM
Yep....basically what I said in Post #2.

MJ

Pretty much. What I think happened, is that 1 of the 2 is the original article, on the subject, and the other is the updated version,probably from the same day. The OS will periodically update and or remove info from the online version of the paper, as more info becomes available. Id still like to find the article that has even more info then the 2 articles here combined.