My daughter is being sent home for wearing a USA headband to school today!!!! [Archive] - The DIS Discussion Forums

TeresaNJ

09-11-2002, 07:49 AM

After being on hold on the phone for 15 minutes, I hung up and called back. The assistant vice principal, the one who called me initially, said that they were in a meeting with the principal, and also the security guard and another teacher to decide what constitutes a "head covering". Apparently students are not allowed to wear hats, scarves, or anything else that covers the whole head. She told me that it was decided that what Lauren had on was okay. I told the asst. vp that I was ready to call every news organization I could think of, and that I also had a picture that I took of the girls this morning in their patriotic outfits and that I was going to send it to every newspaper I could think of. I am not a fighting person, but believe me, they were going to have a fight on their hands that they would not want. I was also ready to march down to that school and have them pull out every girl who had any kind of hair adornment in their hair. I am still furious. I was told that a teacher reported Lauren and that is why they called her down to the office. Also, get this, the students were told yesterday that today would be a red, white and blue day and to dress accordingly if they so wished. This is a PUBLIC school, not private. Lauren got on the phone and told me to come get her so she could get changed because now she feels stupid. I spoke to her calmly for a few minutes and I told her that I thought she looked adorable and to not cave in to ridiculous comments. I told her to stand up for her rights. She was so proud of herself and her friends, as was I. Here are three high school juniors who are doing something other than talking about boys, who spent their own money to make these outfits, and then are told to go home and get changed. I just don't get it. I see some of the outfits that some girls wear to school every day, skirts up to their butts, cleavage hanging out of their shirts, and my daughter gets sent home for wear a "hair" band!!! That is exactly what it was, approximately 2 inches in diameter, red in color, and with the letters USA on it. It was not in her eyes, covering her forehead, or covering her whole head. It was a hairband. She also had on jeans, and a shirt that covered everything, including her belly button, which I see girls flaunting every day in totally inappropriate school attire.

I am relieved that the school backed down, but can you imagine them singling this out on today of all days. I am still tempted to write a letter to the newspapers. I would love to know which teacher reported her, but the asst. vp wouldn't tell me, she said it's against policy. I told her that it was hard enough to get kids interested in school, and that teens had enough problems with every day life. I just can't believe they did this today. I am so UPSET, can you tell. Thanks for listening.

Bumbles

09-11-2002, 07:54 AM

Tell Lauren to be proud of her outfit...good for her and good for you for not caving :)

SeaSpray

09-11-2002, 07:55 AM

My blood is boiling just reading this!!!!!!!!! How upsetting, ESPECIALLY TODAY!!!!!!!

Please tell your DD and her friends that the school and that ridiculous teacher are WRONG, and that I think it's wonderful how she took her own time and money to make her outfit.

Zurg

09-11-2002, 07:56 AM

Sometimes the lesson you learn in school is that the administration can be morons.

mamajoan

09-11-2002, 07:59 AM

I would be extremely upset as you are..

sounds like somebody got a bug up their butt ..
It is a head band for pete's sake.. :rolleyes:

I usually am in full support of teachers and administration.. but they blew it this time..

Hmm, do ya think that security would have a little time on their hands to check out the gang members flashing hand signals? or wearing colors? carrying weapons.. on a daily basis...??

They may have more time if they were not on barrett patrol..
sorry if I sound sarcastic.. I am tired this am.. no real excuse..

but I do not believe Zero Tolerance.. is an excuse to not engage the brain before doing something really silly..

You go girl! Keep encouraging your daughter and her friends to do the right thing!:bounce: :Pinkbounc :bounce: :Pinkbounc

Krisu

09-11-2002, 08:07 AM

It's as if they don't give these teens credit for being strongly affected by 9/11. Seems very petty in light of what has happened. But somehow I am not surprised:( DS had to write an essay about a political cartoon which hints at the U.S.'s inability to stop terrorists. One of his quotes was about our armed forces saying "they are doing a hell of a job" I told him not to use it but he feels very strongly about it. (he's 14) We'll see:rolleyes:

dixiegirl

09-11-2002, 08:07 AM

I don't even really know what to say about this. This is appalling behavior from any employee of a school - regardless of private or public school. How completely inappropriate and especially on such a difficult day!!! I am glad that you stood your ground and the school backed down. It would've been nice to see in the news though - it sounds like that school's administration need a little dose of public humiliation and embarrassment.

Blondie

09-11-2002, 08:10 AM

At my son's middle school there is a rather long list of things they are not allowed to wear in school, and that includes bandanas, hats, scarves, berets, etc.

No flip-flops, no trench coats, no mini skirts, no bare midrifs, etc, etc, etc.

I think September 11th should be an exception, and patriotic headbands, hats and scarves should be allowed, and I'm glad to read that you DD is allowed to show her patriotism with her headband!

TeresaNJ

09-11-2002, 08:11 AM

Thanks guys for your supportive replies. I think it will make Lauren feel better to read this when she comes home. I am concerned about what this is going to do to her spirit. You know, teens are so wrapped up in their own world and I was so happy that Lauren and her friends were showing that they were proud to be an American and were thinking of paying tribute to all the poor souls who lost their lives on 9-11. Their outfits weren't ostentatious or overdone. I thought it was such a sweet thing for them to do. I'm sure after today she will never want to do it again for fear of being singled out. I asked Lauren if any of the other girls were called down to the office, and she said not that she knows of. I really feel like she was singled out for some other reason, perhaps this teacher that reported her doesn't like her, I don't know. What a lousy way to start off the new school year. She was in tears on the phone. It took everything I had to convince her not to come home and get changed. It's ironic, because whenever the school has a pep rally, alot of the girls will wear ribbons and things in their hair depicting the school colors, along with glitter and sometimes they even use those spray hair colorings on their hair. I've never heard of any of them being sent home for that. I still want to talk to the pricipal. I feel like for some reason Lauren was picked on today and I'd like to know why. I did mention to the asst. vp when she initially called me that I was going to engage a lawyer. I wonder if that had anything to do with them backing down. Why didn't they have their little meeting about whether her hair band was appropriate BEFORE they got her all upset and BEFORE they called me and told me to come get her. Why ask why? People never cease to amaze me.

snowball22

09-11-2002, 08:13 AM

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: UNBELIEVABLE:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

luvwinnie

09-11-2002, 08:14 AM

contact your local paper and tell them about this. I AM DISGUSTED.

TeresaNJ

09-11-2002, 08:21 AM

When the girls get home from school today I am going to get their film developed, as they took their cameras to school. Then I will post a picture of what they had on so you can see there was nothing inappropriate about it. I am seriously thinking of sending a picture to the newspaper also with a letter. The only thing that is holding me back though is that I'm concerned that Lauren will pay the price if it really angers the administration. I'm calling the principal right now to speak to him, as he never did get on the phone.

olena

09-11-2002, 08:22 AM

I think you should go ahead and relate the story to the local paper as an editorial. That's just ridiculous! Today has evoked enough emotions for everyone. Lauren had the right idea...BRAVO to her and her friends.

Dan Murphy

09-11-2002, 08:31 AM

Good to hear it was resolved, Teresa.

Wagamama

09-11-2002, 08:35 AM

I would call your local media station and tell them about this and the un patritotic attitude of your school.

Rajah

09-11-2002, 08:39 AM

What I'd be concerned about if you contacted the paper would be even further singling out of your daughter and/or her friends later in the year. On one hand, this rediculous attitude toward a patriotic headband on a day to show patriotism should be brought to attention for the anti-patriotism act it seems to be. On the other, you don't want it coming back to hurt your daughter. That's a tough call. Because even if you didn't name the school and/or your daughter, the administration and the teacher who reported her would know who the story was about.

Nuts4Disney

09-11-2002, 08:39 AM

I am sittinging here, listening to them call the names of the lost & watching the family members.

I can not imagine what the school administration was thinking. It certainly seems like it was a bad call. The lack of sensitivity shown on a day when emotions are running so high is disgraceful. IMO, your daughter is owed an apology. That would've been a real "learning experience" for her -- how to admit one's errors & make amends.

It seems odd that since your daughter dressed this way with her friends that only she was singled out. But being a teenager is tough enough, & she might not want any more made of it. If she is already embarassed, she might not want it printed in the newspaper for all her friends, the town, etc., to see. I think I would talk to her first about it.

I hope your daughter's school year goes better after this. Best wishes.

Laurabearz

09-11-2002, 08:53 AM

I would be upset too.... I am glad they backed down, but also kinda wish they hadnt... just so you could call the media in......

I just dont get it...... (((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))

Serena

09-11-2002, 09:10 AM

Theresa, you did good mom. That was just utterly stupid of them. I'm glad they backed down, believe me they would not have wanted that battle today.
You did great, I'm proud of you and of your daughter and her friend.

rbuzzotta

09-11-2002, 09:21 AM

Lauren, if you read this..........you go girl. Stand up for your beliefs. It seems you are within the dress code guidelines and showed Patriotism. How creative for you and your friends to make Patriotic outfits as a tribute to America and all that has happened. Teachers should be focusing on those students who abide by the rules and show creativity.

My DD wore a white headband today to match her REd, white and blue New York (picture of the skyline) shirt, along with her jeans...........

I am upsset that this happened to you.

leahannpen

09-11-2002, 09:22 AM

That is just stupid! Some teacher was having a bad day and took it out on your poor daughter, who was doing nothing wrong.

You have every right to be mad as heck and I don't blame you at all. I hope your dear daughter decided to keep her stuff on and wear it with pride! Good for her, and good for you! Shame on those teachers..... like they don't have anything better to do. Unreal!

DocRafiki

09-11-2002, 09:26 AM

What is the real story here? Did they say she had to go home and change, or did she WANT to come home and change, because you're saying both. They probably just wanted her to remove the headband.

If she didn't like being singled out at school, I don't think she'd want it in the papers. She probably knows which teacher it was. You should get the teachers and administrators involved to give her an apology. What a fuss over nothing! Teachers just don't understand how these things at such an impressionable age will stick with these kids for a long time.

Poohbear123

09-11-2002, 09:30 AM

:rolleyes: Stupidity is quite common unfortunately:rolleyes:

CarolMN

09-11-2002, 09:35 AM

I'm so sorry this happened to your daughter (and you). Congratulations for sticking up for what is right. IMHO, this school needs to re examine its entire policy on "head coverings"!

The assistant vice principal, the one who called me initially, said that they were in a meeting with the principal, and also the security guard and another teacher to decide what constitutes a "head covering". Apparently students are not allowed to wear hats, scarves, or anything else that covers the whole head.

Are there no Muslims in NJ? Here in Minneapolis/St. Paul, we have a rather large Somali community. Most are Muslims and many wear the traditional clothing, including the headcovering for women. It is not uncommon to see them wearing their traditional clothing in our public schools. If I understand your daughter's school's policy, these young Muslim women would not be allowed to attend your daughter's school wearing their normal, every day clothing.

I absolutely understand the need to discourage/control gang behavior and/or dress that is distracting to others. No argument from me on that! But there must be SOME way that doesn't prohibit a young citizen from expressing her patriotism in such an innocuous manner (especially on September 11) or the free expression of religion.

I'm proud to be a member of a community that has people like you and your daughter in it!

Best wishes!

TeresaNJ

09-11-2002, 09:44 AM

Clarification, actually DocRafiki, from what I understand is that the asst. vice pricipal told Lauren she would have to take the hair band off. She was very upset as one, she has worn a hair band to school every single day since school started this year and no one ever said a word to her, and this was a hair band that had USA on it, and two, she had her hair styled in accordance with the hair band, so her hair would have looked silly to her with the hair band off, as the top of her hair would have been flat with curls all around the sides and back. After the school made her call me to come get her because she refused to take the hair band off, and after I told them I was calling a lawyer and the newspapers, then they backed off and said it was deemed okay. Lauren then asked me to come get her so she could get changed, as at that point she just wanted to fade into the background. I convinced her to stay in school and leave what she had on on.

Again, I think she was being singled out for some reason other than the hair band. Why only her? Why not her friend who had on almost the exact same thing? Some of you may think she was wrong for just not taking the hair band off, but I don't think she was. It was a regular hair band. She has worn one every day this year in different colors to match her outfit, blue, black, brown, beige, etc. She has short curly hair, and she wears the hair band to keep the hair in front out of her face, and the rest of her hair is curly. No, normally she doesn't wear hair bands with sayings on them, but today was special and the school requested that the students wear red, white and blue. She made the hair band to match her red shirt and blue jeans. She also painted red, white and blue stars on her jeans. Should she have been told to take them off too? The whole thing is completely ridiculous, and I still can't believe it happened.

I've got a call in the the principal and the superintendant, but have not heard back from either of them yet, as they are at a memorial tribute at the middle school. How ironic.

Dream

09-11-2002, 10:07 AM

Your daughter learned many important lessons today. Zurg has mentioned one of them!!! I know teens "psyches" can be "fragile" but its things like this that make them strong!!! She stood up for what she knew in her heart was right!!! WOO HOO!!! These "opportunities" are few and far between. It's a shame she had to experience this but sometimes life deals ya lemons (another lesson!). If it was me I would not make a big deal about this to the media. Your daughter would be the only one to suffer and with the right words from you she will feel like she "won". Sparks were shooting out of my ears just reading your post so I can only imagine how you felt and are still feeling!!! I am glad the school administration had more sense than that teacher....that is a GOOD thing! Take a deeeeep breath and give your daughter a big hug for me when she gets home...she done good!!! (and so did YOU!;) )

TeresaNJ

09-11-2002, 10:21 AM

Thanks Dream. Actually, the school administration, re: asst. vp, was going to make her go home for refusing to take the hair band off. They only backed down and said they reevaluated it and everything was okay, after I threatened to call a lawyer and the media. It just makes me sick that this happened. I had just finished looking at and listening to Pete's memorial tribute and was feeling so sad and melancholy, and my emotions were running high when Lauren initially called to tell me to come get her. I think that is one of the reasons I reacted so stronly to the asst. vp. I am usually quite reserved (LOL). I'm thinking of what a sad day this is, and THIS is what this school is concentrating on!! Made no sense to me at all. I'll have to talk to Lauren when she gets home and find out how the rest of her day went before her and I decide to do anything else. I think I will be satisfied if I can at least make the superintendant and the school board aware of the inadequacies of the enforcement of the dress code.

RumpleMom

09-11-2002, 10:49 AM

Today has been named Patriot's Day. In America we have the right to individual freedom, as long as we do not harm another person.

Your daughter stood up (and to an adult) for her individual freedom; you can be very proud of her. This experience will make her stronger for anything she has to face in the future. It is wonderful to hear something good about teenagers.
This young lady will never be the victim of peer pressure. She can think for herself.

Individual freedom has made our country strong from the very beginning and makes us different from and better than those who want to destroy America.

danacara

09-11-2002, 10:53 AM

I would be sorely tempted to call the media, except that the pushback from your school district might be severe. Put simply, if you call the media and the school is embarrassed, her grades and college recommendations might suffer. Think hard about what is right for your family in this case, I could see an argument either way.

zulaya

09-11-2002, 11:02 AM

I would definitely talk with teh principal and superintendent about this. Make all the points everyone else has made.

Why was she singled out?
How was her outfit violating the dress code or offending anyone?
Why didn't the teacher who reported her not have the decency to speak to your daughter first?
Why is the school condemning patriotism on this day of all days?
Why do they take their definitions of zero tolerance so far that it infringes on our freedoms?

Make sure you document EVERYTHING! SO in case you decide to go to the media, you have it all documented and that the school administration knows you have it documented and that you will take action if you daughter is treated this way again.

SuiteDisney

09-11-2002, 11:10 AM

I'm so proud of both of you! (((hugs)))

onemichelle

09-11-2002, 11:59 AM

Please let us know what happens when Lauren gets home. You must be a wonderful parent to have such a special daughter. Hang in there.

MerryPoppins

09-11-2002, 01:04 PM

Tell her that your friends on the DIS are proud of her expression of patriotism. I think the whole situation was silly! What were they thinking? I'm glad she decided to stay at school for the rest of the day. Way to go, you guys!

Breezy_Carol

09-11-2002, 02:30 PM

Take a deep breath, then ask Lauren what she wants to do. She is almost out on her own and it is her problem. I know how hard that is. I also have a DD who is a junior in high school.

We also have that same ban on hair bands. It makes no sense at all to me. I am certainly not in the know when it comes to "gang" attire, but my DD has long red hair and likes to tie it back different ways. I just don't understand why a hair band is not allowed, especially when you see what others are wearing.

Maleficent2

09-11-2002, 02:53 PM

this is just not right....

but I agree with Breezy_Carol ask Lauren what she wants to do.

And go from there.

Good for her for not stepping down and taking off her headband.

Mal

Val

09-11-2002, 03:28 PM

What your daughter did today was stand up for her rights. This is EXACTLY what today symbolizes. Remember those on Flight 93? They stood up and fought. Those at the Pentagon made a career of fighting for freedom. Same with those who fought valiantly to save individuals in the WTC. At today's WTC ceremony, the Mayor read the Gettysburg Address- what was true almost 150 years ago remains true today. Our new priest, who just arrived here from Nigeria, chastized us Americans in his first homily last Sunday. He reminded us that BECAUSE we live in a great country it is our responsiblity to stand up for civil rights. When we don't, we are as guilty as those that harm our rights. While standing up for the right to wear a headband in NO way is as powerful as overpowering hijackers or laying down one's life for one's country, it sets the "behavioral tone" for how one will behave later life.Your daughter represents what is great about this country- that we stand up and fight for freedom. My guess is that she will go on to do great things.

TeresaNJ

09-11-2002, 03:52 PM

Well, when Lauren came home from school today the first thing she said was that she didn't want to talk about it, so I gave her some space. A little while after that she told me that when she first got to school, the asst. vp was standing in the hall and told Lauren that she had to take her headband off. Lauren said she told her no, that she wasn't going to take it off. Then she said a security guard came up to her and told her to take it off. She again refused. She said she went to homeroom and then got called down to the office, and then was told to call me to come get her. Apparently there is a rule in the handbook that states that no headbands can be worn, along with bobbie pins, hats, scarves, etc. I can't find her handbook, so I looked on the school's internet site to see if the dress code was posted there, but it wasn't. Lauren then told me not to worry about it, because now they are ALLOWED to wear headbands, or hairbands, whatever you want to call it. I still have not heard from the principal or superintendant. I realize that in light of the events of 9-11 this is trivial, but it still bothers me. I want to know WHY girls can't wear headbands. I know the little girls in grade school wear them. What on earth can the HS school board be thinking when they say HS girls can't wear headbands? Also, as I said, no one said a word to her for the past seven days about her headbands. I am totally confused, but I am not giving up until I get an answer from somebody. Especially when I know many girls wear them everyday. The other thing that bothers me is that the asst. vp told me a teacher reported Lauren, yet Lauren tells me the asst. vp came up to her in the hall and told her to take the headband off immediately upon Lauren entering the school. So is the vp lying? Why would she tell me a teacher reported Lauren? Obviously Lauren never even made it to her first class before she was called down to the office. And why all of a sudden is it okay to wear a headband? I don't know, all I know is that I'm glad Lauren didn't back down and take it off. Gee, I wonder if barrettes are okay. How about pony tail holders. I've got to get a hold of one of those handbooks! Initially I thought the reason they didn't want her to wear it is because it was made of fabric and knotted at the base of her neck, and maybe they thought it could be used as a weapon of some sort, like to strangle someone. So I asked the asst. vp if boys were allowed to wear belts to hold their pants up, and she said yes. I didn't understand the reasoning behind it then, and I don't understand it now. I was too upset at the time to delve into the reason, plus the asst. vp kept telling me the reason she had to take it off was because it was a rule in the handbook, and that was that. Hopefully, after I talk to the principal I'll get a concrete answer. I guess that will have to wait until tomorrow though.

Serena

09-11-2002, 03:55 PM

:confused: I am very confused. I think they need to get their act together.

I'm proud of both of you. :)

browneyes

09-11-2002, 04:03 PM

I wonder how the school boards come up with some of the silly rules they put into the dress code sometimes.:rolleyes: They had at my kids' school that the kids had to keep their shirts tucked in. Evidentally whomever thought of that rule didn't have to watch 15-20 Pre-K or Kindergarteners! The teacher wouldn't be able to teach because of the constant reminders to tuck in their shirts.:rolleyes: Then they HAD to wear belts to school. My kids didn't mind that part of the dress code. But to me, the belts could be a hazard, they could get caught on the playground equipment. I heard in the middle and high schools, if they didn't wear a belt, they put a piece of yarn through the loop holes instead.:rolleyes:

How's your dd feeling now, Teresa?

Disney Doll

09-11-2002, 04:08 PM

While I agree that the school was stupid to make an issue out of a USA headband being worn on September 11th, I think we all need to take a breath here for a minute.

This is junior high. This is a "different" sort of a day, and everyone's emotions are probably running a little high, including the school officials.They are human too, remember.

My suggestion to you would be to make an appointment to calmly discuss with the principal why it seemed that your daughter was singled out, especially since she had 2 other friends dressed the same way who, to the best of your knowledge, did not get into any trouble for their attire. You might want to point out that your daughter wears a head band very frequently to school in different colors to match her outfits, and it has never been an issue before, so why was today's headband any different? I think I'd stay away from negative media coverage of the school. If you want to submit a picture to your local paper of the girls in their outfits because they looked so cute and patriotic, then do so, but don't bring the school into it.

There is an opportunity to teach your daughter many lessons here in addition to the ones already mentioned.

Kallison

09-11-2002, 04:24 PM

I would write a note to each and every one of her teachers with exactly the points you posted about her wearing a head band and some of the other inappropriate attire that girls get away with. I know exactly what you mean, I just started working in a middle school. Tell them you are addressing it to them all since you could not determine which teacher turned her in for such lunacy! I'm sure the gung ho teacher will think twice before doing something so stupid again. From what you described it seems pretty clear that they had a patriotic intent.

Mary Jo

09-11-2002, 04:27 PM

<font color=navy>I read this earlier, but didn't want to comment right away. When I came back to give my spin on it, I saw that Disney Doll expressed the same thoughts that I have.

There is a good lesson to be had here. I don't think that trying to humiliate someone is the right way to handle any situation, and my opinion would be that going to the media to embarrass the school and its administration would be wrong. However, giving the media a picture of your dd and her frends with a nice editorial would be a great idea.

I commend Lauren for many things - she and her friends took the time to handcraft outfits to show their patriotism at school. In this day and age where so many youth spend their time in front of the computer/ tv, etc., these young ladies did something positive to share. If I had been told to take off the headband, I would have done it and felt embarrassed. Lauren stood up for what she felt was right. I think that took a lot of courage, and good for her. When things got to be too much for her, she went to her mother for help and advice - she could have done a number of things, but she turned to her mother, and I think you gave her good advice, Theresa - it gives us a glimpse of the relationship you have with your daughter. :)

Lauren will be faced with many situations, and this is one that will help her be strong the next time she has to deal with something that is unfair.

Although I understand your anger, I agree with Disney Doll that a calm meeting with the principal is in order. If there is an underlying reason why the vp/teacher singled her out, then maybe you can nip it in the bud, so that Lauren has a better relationship with that vp/teacher, or at least, a better understanding between you and your daughter and the school administration.

Good luck to you!

vickyBaby

09-11-2002, 05:20 PM

I think that girls not being able to wear hair ornamentation is utterly ridiculous. I don't understand the ban. What will the headbands be filled with? Explosive?

What I do have a MAJOR issue with is a child defying the school authorities.

supercarrie

09-11-2002, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by vickylan
I think that girls not being able to wear hair ornamentation is utterly ridiculous. I don't understand the ban. What will the headbands be filled with? Explosive?

What I do have a MAJOR issue with is a child defying the school authorities.

First I would just like to say that I think it is great that your DD put in so much effort to show her support today. And the school dress code rule is ridiculous (we have the same rule at my school.)

But...I agree with Vicky. Perhaps the situation would have been better handled if she had taken it off, but then had a calm, rational discussion with the actual principal (requested to speak with him at that moment) about the situation. I wasn't there, but I know that situations at my school, such as this, are often handled better when you discuss the situation instead of standing completely firm without hearing the other person (and in this case, the authority's) viewpoint. (I wasn't at the school with your DD, so maybe I am hearing the story wrong, though.)

TeresaNJ

09-11-2002, 05:33 PM

I do agree that I should speak to the principal in a calm, matter of fact manner, which is what I am going to do. I think I reacted the way I did this morning because I was caught so off guard, and completely surprised that this would be an issue. As far as embarrassing the school board or the teachers involved I am less concerned with, as they had no problem embarrassing my daughter. I also don't agree with defying school authorities, but in this instance I'm glad my daughter did, especially since suddenly the rule on headbands has changed. I want my daughter to pick her battles, and I support this one she has chosen.

Maybe if the children who were molested by all those priests had chosen to defy their school authorities, namely the priests associated with those Catholic schools, perhaps so many children wouldn't have been molested. Just because someone is a teacher doesn't automatically make them right.

Princess_Aurora

09-11-2002, 05:50 PM

First, give your daughter a big hug from me. I know what it's like to be singled out in school and it's not fun. I was sent home once for having pants that were TOO TIGHT once. They were a birthday present and it was my b-day and I wanted to wear them. I got sent to the principal's office and she couldn't even specificly point out where it said I couldn't wear those pants. I walked home in tears.

Second, I think you should let the media know. Every parent that has a child in that school should know what they did to your daughter. Maybe it will teach them a lesson on how not to single out one innocent person. The part that really makes me mad though is the fact that none of her friends got in trouble AND you said she wears head bands ALL THE TIME! If it's so illegal, why couldn't they have told her in kindergarten?!?!?!

KProuty

09-11-2002, 06:08 PM

There is certainly a time for calm discussion. This wasn't one of them. And it certainly isn't a time to let bureaucratic organizations stifle patriotric sentiments in the student body. (They will get enough of that in college.) If you daughter has consistently worn headbands and has never been told to stop before, then this was NOT about head bands. It was about making a patriotic statement.

I commend your daughter for standing up to an adult. There are situations where it is not appropriate, and I trust your daughter knows when it is and when it is not. (It was entirely appropriate in this situation.) One of the first thing I teach my kids is that they don't ALWAYS have to behave adults. This kind of thinking -- blindly following what adults say, whether a teacher or a priest -- can get your kids abused. If you don't believe me, read Protecting the Gift which outlines EXACTLY how to give your kids a fighting chance against abuse.

If the administration does NOT apologize to your daughter over this, then she just learned that adults are NO better and far more stupid than a lot of teenagers. Being able to admit when you are wrong is something that should be learned by example, including principals and teachers. Our elementary school principal apologized to one student over an obvious mistake in judgement that he made.

And you were more calm than I would have been.

Katherine

Mai Ku Tiki

09-11-2002, 07:17 PM

I'm really sad today. Several students in my school district lost parents a year ago...a few teachers lost their grown children...all of us seem to know someone who knew someone who..... :( I probably shouldn't post anything...I'm pretty upset....

But I just have to add one thing here... Rules in most school districts in my state are set up by school boards who are elected by parents and taxpayers in the those towns.

The administrators compose and publish the school rules at the start of each year. This information is always given to parents. If there is a dress code, it is usually included in this information. Sometimes teachers have input into these guidelines, but most times not. If the rule is NO headgear (in my district exceptions are made for anything required for religious observance) then the rule is NO headgear (or coats or beepers or headphones or candy or Snapple...)

As a teacher and employee of the school district (and the administration) I am charged with the responsibility of following ALL school rules. It is not discretionary. My opinion of the rule is unimportant. Therefore, if someone appears in my class in violation of a rule, I address it as mandated. If I'm to send the child to administration, that's what I do. All of us who are in any workplace have rules to follow. If I overlook a rule for someone else's child, don't I have to do the same for yours? If I overlook too many rules, will I still be able to guarantee all my students a safe, positive learning environment? Please don't blame teachers for following the rules.

If a parent (or student, for that matter) objects to certain school rules, there are ways to effect change. Go to your Bd of Ed meetings, speak up. Meet with administrators and talk. Make an appointment with a teacher to get information. But please don't encourage or congratulate your children for 'standing up to authority'. So many criticize some schools for allowing too many students to flaunt authority...the place seems out of control and no learning takes place in chaos. Yet often these same people want the rules bent when it is THEIR child who is held accountable.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS THE CASE WITH THE FIRST POSTER HERE WHO WAS UPSET ABOUT HER DAUGHTER!

I'm only responding to the caustic tone so many have posted here...
I just wish that everyone understood how hard it is to please EVERY parent and help EVERY child learn EVERY day!

I guess I have to chuckle...every August my neighbors are always saying "I cannot WAIT for school to start"..."These kids are driving me CRAZY!!!" And we've all laughed at those great commercials of parents dancing gleefully as they get the kids ready for school.... Well...where do you think those kids go? They are in OUR classrooms for the next 10 months!!!!Please, temper your criticisms with just a bit of compassion.

I have to tear myself away from here now and the TV. The presentation on the DIS homepage was awesome, IMHO. Tomorrow morning by 6:45, I'll be readying my class to receive your kids...152 of them...sad, confused, anxious, scared, lonely, happy, excited, apathetic, cool, needy, confident...It will be 9/12...the day after AGAIN...and we have a lot to learn.

'night all and God Bless. Thanks, Pete, again for these Boards!

vickyBaby

09-11-2002, 08:33 PM

But please don't encourage or congratulate your children for 'standing up to authority'.

*golf clap* for Mai Ku Tiki

RumpleMom

09-12-2002, 07:45 AM

Please congratulate your daughter for standing up to authority to protect her patriotic freedom.

The sermon in church this past Sunday was, "When good people do nothing..."

Mamu

09-12-2002, 08:25 AM

Theresa glad to hear this problem was resolved. :)

At a time when everyone is proud to be an American. It's wonderful to see teen's show so much emotion. For some reason this teacher has a problem with public display. Thank God the rest of the world doesn't. Some of the most moving tributes came from other countries. There's nothing wrong with displaying how proud we are to be Americans on this day. That we will never cower, that we will stand tall and fight the evils and wrongs in our world.

"I am an American" and proud of it. If you do no like my patriotic clothing then don't look. "I am an American" with the freedom to wear RED, WHITE and BLUE.

ckr

09-12-2002, 09:02 AM

but I've got to ask: Why is her DD considered a hero for not following the rules of her school?

a.) Because she hadn't been made to follow the rules for the first 7 days of school, she should not have to ever follow them? I don't think so.

b.) Because she was only asked to take off the headband because it said USA? No, she wasn't told she had to change the rest of her outfit. Apparently the rest of the patriotic outfit was within the guidelines.

c.) Because she refused to have her patriotism squelched by removing her headband? No, according to the mom, at least part of the reason she didn't want to remove it was for purely fashion purposes: (and I quote) "she had her hair styled in accordance with the hair band, so her hair would have looked silly to her with the hair band off, as the top of her hair would have been flat with curls all around the sides and back." Since we really don't know whether she refused for patriotic reasons or for fashion reasons, I think it's a HUGE jump to cry out Heroism.

While I know this post is going to be unpopular, I hope you'll be able to step back and see this more objectively. The girl openly refused a valid request from the Asst. Principal. If she had not wanted to comply, she should have spent time in discussions with the Asst. Principal and or Principal to see what options/compromises they could work out. Perhaps the administration would let her slide that day due to the patriotic nature of her headband, but she could not wear a headband in the future. Perhaps she could be allowed time to restyle her hair and continue the day in her patriotic outfit without the headband, then go on to "work the system" to get the rule changed.
There are many things that COULD'VE happened and been "good". Openly defying the Asst Principal and going on to class as if the request had not been made, is IMO the WORST thing that could've happened. Further, calling a student in this position a hero, threatening to sue, etc. only reinforces a teenager's idea that the world revolves around them.

Sorry, but that's my Honest Opinion. I do not think the OP or her DD are bad people, but I do believe they did the wrong thing. I hope that they'll see this as constructive critism and not a flame. That is my intent.

Grog

09-12-2002, 09:28 AM

But then why was her headband singled out? I think that is the most important question. IMHO it sounds like a teacher who woke up on the wrong side of the bed, or had an argument with a spouse that moring and decided to take it out on someone they didn't think would fight back (probably not consciously, but maybe the patriotic outfit was the last straw for that teacher that morning).

Rules are OK, but they need to be applied evenly. I applaud TeresaNJ's DD for refusing to be a doormat. The teacher could have handled this better.

ckr

09-12-2002, 09:32 AM

No disrespect intended, but you need to go back and read this thread again. It wasn't even a teacher that reported her, according to the daughter. As she entered the school, the Asst Principal saw a violation of the dress code and made the valid request for the teenager to remove it. No mention has been made that there were others with her also wearing headbands, so I'm not seeing the "she was singled out" aspect.

Grog

09-12-2002, 09:39 AM

the Asst Principal

MY apologies. I wrote "teacher" because I thought everyone would know what I was talking about. I consdered it a question of symantecs and never thought it would be an issue.

No mention has been made that there were others with her also wearing headbands

Her friend was wearing a similar outfit. Accordind to the original post:

They bought red shirts and decorated them with stars and red, white and blue ribbons, and also made pretty head bands to wear in their hair.

ckr

09-12-2002, 09:53 AM

I thought you hadn't read the entire thread. My apologies.

I guess my question would have to be were her friends WITH HER at the time she entered the school and was given the directive by the Asst Principal. If indeed there were others entering the school at that time and place wearing headbands (with or without USA) that were not also given the directive, I'd agree that she was singled out. However, I did not get that impression. Perhaps the OP will clear that up. But to ASSUME that they were and then claim that she was singled out....

Pin Wizard

09-12-2002, 12:32 PM

How RIDICULOUS can they be? I'm one for keeping a file. Any time there's been a problem with something at school, I e-mail the guidance counselor (who is the designated person to handle problems.) Hopefully, she's smart enough to know that I'm keeping a hard copy of what I e-mail her. I can't believe a school would make them stop wearing something in support of our country! :mad: Gee, is there someone in Washington who would like to know this stuff? :rolleyes:

disfanatiks

09-12-2002, 12:45 PM

While I whole heartedly agree that yesterday, there should have been an exception made on September 11. I do not believe that disobeying an authority figure was appropriate. And as stated before she really was more concerned with how her hair would look without the headband.

Openly defying the Asst Principal and going on to class as if the request had not been made, is IMO the WORST thing that could've happened.

I must say that regardless of the reason, I agree with ckr on this.

Pin Wizard

09-12-2002, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by browneyes
They had at my kids' school that the kids had to keep their shirts tucked in. Evidentally whomever thought of that rule didn't have to watch 15-20 Pre-K or Kindergarteners! The teacher wouldn't be able to teach because of the constant reminders to tuck in their shirts
DS's school does this also. And they'll even get detention if their shirt is out. :rolleyes: Why don't they focus on more important things?

TeresaNJ

09-12-2002, 04:17 PM

While I usually wholeheartedly agree that my daughter Lauren should respect her elders whomever they may be, and that she should absolutely follow all her school's rules, this time I have to disagree. The student handbook states that no "headgear" may be worn. I do not consider headbands that are used specifically to hold hair back off the face "headgear". She has worn headbands since kindergarten and no one has ever said a word to her. When the asst. vp told Lauren to take her headband off and she said no, I would have preferred that she ask the asst. vp if they could discuss it in private. Be that as it may, when Lauren was called down to the office and the asst. vp told her again to take it off, Lauren said no and that there were many girls who had headbands on that day also. The asst. vp said, "well, you're the one who got caught".

Now, saying that, I still maintain that headbands are NOT headgear. If they made my daughter take her headband off, then I was going to go to the school and insist that every girl be evaluated for barrettes, hairpins, ribbons, weaves, braids with beads, etc., and if all the girls were made to take them off, out or whatever, then I would have agreed that Lauren should have been made to take her headband off also. That was not the case. Lauren was absolutely singled out, why, I don't know, but I plan to find out.

Yes, being 16, she was concerned with how her hair would look without the headband, but she was also VERY disappointed that after all the effort she put into her 9-11 remembrance outfit she was being chastised and made to feel like she had done something wrong.

Remember, the asst. vp told me not 15 minutes later that everything was okay and Lauren could wear her headband. She also told Lauren to go tell all her friends that they could now wear their headbands too. So was there a rule or wasn't there? Who actually was in the wrong here. Plus, the asst. vp LIED to me when she told me a teacher had reported Lauren. She never once indicated that it was her who told Lauren to take the headband off. She told me she was following up on the information provided to her by another teacher. Something stinks here.

Also, disfanatiks, how are you so sure Lauren was more concerned about how her hair would look, than in the principle of being made to take a headband off commemorating the USA and 9-11? If you were present and then made that statement, then I would give what you say more credibility.

TeresaNJ

09-12-2002, 04:24 PM

Also, I would like to point out that Lauren also did not consider headbands to be "headgear", and considering that no teacher ever pointed out to her that it was, she did not think she was breaking any rules during the first seven days of school that she wore her headbands.

TeresaNJ

09-12-2002, 06:52 PM

Sorry, I had to bump this, as for some reason it wasn't moving up with my posts.:D

Disney Doll

09-12-2002, 08:34 PM

And I thought that nurses took a lot of flak. Wow!:eek:

TeresaNJ

09-12-2002, 09:58 PM

That's funny that you should say that Disney Doll, as I am a nurse!!;)

Fishbone†

09-12-2002, 10:20 PM

I'm still waiting to see the pictures. ;)

Jeff in BigD

09-13-2002, 01:58 AM

My friend had a t-shirt that read:
"Welcome to school...leave your common sense & logic at the front door." :teeth:

DocRafiki

09-13-2002, 03:44 AM

But then why was her headband singled out? I think that is the most important question.

Well it sounds like it was pretty flashy. If she had worn colors in the past that didn't attract attention, it would make sense that they didn't stop her before.

After reading some of these replies, I have to agree that defying the VP is nothing to brag about. People need to learn to obey rules even if they think they're silly. There isn't always someone around to explain the importance of the rule. I see this way too commonly in grown adults -- it's a shame they were taught that they know better than everyone else.

ckr

09-13-2002, 01:54 PM

And again, not flaming, but offering a different perspective.

1.) TNJ states: "Lauren was absolutely singled out, why, I don't know, but I plan to find out." but also relays the AVP's response to her DD had been "well, you're the one who got caught".

It is apparent by the DD having to inform the AVP of other girls wearing similar headgear (I'll address that next) she was not singled out as "The girl with the USA headband, you know next to the girls with the teal, blue, black and brown ones." She was the girl with a headband in a group of students without headbands. She was (in the AVP's interpretation of the rule) violating the dress code, and it was the AVP's job to correct it.

2.) TNJ states: "When the asst. vp told Lauren to take her headband off and she said no, I would have preferred that she ask the asst. vp if they could discuss it in private. Be that as it may,..."

By the age of 16/17 I would hope a child would know what was "preferred" behaviour when confronted with an unreasonable request by an authority figure. At 9, my DD certainly knows what is EXPECTED (not preferred, btw) in such a situation because she has been taught to respectfully disagree with authority figures ever since she learned to argue with her father and I about bedtime, chores, etc. She has been taught to make her case and live with our decision. Many times, we will reverse our decision based on some very valid points.

Again, this is age 9. Certainly, by Jr. Yr. in HS, one should know how to RESPECTFULLY stand their ground. If they are taught. (This is NOT saying TNJ hasn't taught her.)

3.) The "everyone else is doing it" thing never works.

It shouldn't work in wooing parents into giving in, nor should it work with school authorities. Further, TNJ's DD's response to being caught was to snitch on her friends. How would her friends have felt if the AVP's response was to require the girl's friends to also comply?

Bottom line, headgear was the AVP's pet peeve and the AVP was at the same place at the same time as TNJ's DD that day and called her on it. Now, if TNJ were to relay that her DD had had interactions with the AVP in the prior 7 school days while wearing her plain headbands and had not been asked to comply...

But, for me it sounds like she simply had not run into someone who was enforcing that interpretation of the dress code before Wednesday. She was the one who got caught is a very valid reason for why she was (and I still do not agree with this, but some percieve it to be) "singled out."

For example, if you speed on a specific route to work and your friends speed to work on their different routes and none of you get stopped for weeks, does that mean that you are being "singled out" when you get stopped one day on YOUR route because they did not get stopped on THEIRS? What if you had passed a Sherriff's Deputy running radar each day, but then the day you got stopped it was a State Patrol Trooper? Does the fact that the Deputy didn't cite you for speeding for weeks make the Trooper's citation any less valid? No, not at all.

3.) Actions speak louder than words. While TNJ seems to "prefer" that her daughter deal with conflict in a respectful manner, what she is DOING is showing by example how NOT do so.
Per TNJ:
"If they made my daughter take her headband off, then I was going to go to the school and insist that every girl be evaluated for barrettes, hairpins, ribbons, weaves, braids with beads, etc., "
"I told the asst. vp that I was ready to call every news organization I could think of,..."
"I am not a fighting person, but believe me, they were going to have a fight on their hands that they would not want." Etc.

While I realize these were said in the heat of the moment, I hope TNJ will really think about what she DOES along with what she is saying to her DD about this incident.

4.) TNJ asks: "So was there a rule or wasn't there? Who actually was in the wrong here."

Just because the interpretation of the policy was reevaluated after this incident and her DD was allowed to wear her headband does not mean that the AVP was in the wrong. If the AVP had interpreted the policy to include headbands and had consistently enforced such an interpretation, the AVP was 100% in the right. And by openly defying the AVP and then ignoring the request and going to class, TNJ's DD was 100% wrong.

To try to mask this as some patriotic heroism is completely missing the point, IMO.

TeresaNJ

09-14-2002, 08:54 AM

ckr, I've read your last post several times before replying. I'm very glad for you that your nine year old daughter is so respectful of everyone at all times. However, when she is a teenager and trying to assert herself and be her own person, I can honestly say I'm 100% sure she will not please you at all times. I'm 100% sure you will be saying to yourself, as many of us mother's of teens do, where is my sweet, darling daughter in that teenager's body.;)

Secondly, my daughter did not "snitch" on her friends. She did not name names. She stated that there were at least six girls in her immediate vicinity who had headbands on also. I never said the other girls were my daughter's friends, just that there were other students with headbands on also in the same immediate area. My daughter's friends, who made their headbands with my daughter, were not with my daughter at the time. Lauren was not trying to get anyone else in trouble, she wanted to know why she was the only one confronted, when there were girls all around her with headbands on.

Third, your reference to speeding is not comparing apples to apples. Everyone knows that speeding is wrong. Lauren did not know that wearing a headband was against the rules as it has never been made an issue to her knowledge, and I would think if anyone else had ever been made to take a headband off, she would have heard about it, as you know how things fly through the school grapevine. Again, please keep in mind that if she had any inkling that wearing a headband was against the rules she would not have worn one. As far as I know, headgear had been interpreted as hats, scarves, anything covering the whole head, not an adornment to keep hair out of your eyes. Also, as I've said repeatedly, she has always worn headbands, along with bows, barrettes, ribbons, ponytail holders, etc., since kindergarten. Why would she think she was doing something wrong now?

Maybe you're right in that she wasn't "singled out", just caught the vp on a bad day, I don't know, but it sure appeared that way to me, considering all the facts. A few of you are focusing on the fact that she didn't kowtow to an "authority" figure. Personally, I don't want my daughter to blidnly obey every authority figure she comes in contact with. She was not disrespectful. She was asked to take the headband off, and she said no, she wasn't going to take it off. I don't blame her. The dress code does not mention anywhere that headbands are not allowed. Throughout her whole middle school and highschool career, she has worn them too many times to count, and prior to this school year she has worn many colorful ones. This is the only one she has worn that has had USA on it though. The school asked the students to be patriotic and wear red, white and blue that day. So it is ironic to me that the vp would, on that day, choose to interpret a USA headband to be considered headgear.

As far as your statement that my reaction was showing Lauren to be disrespectful by my comments to the vp that I was going to ask that every girl be checked for hair adornments and asked to remove them, and that they were going to have a fight on their hands, I do not consider to be disrespectful comments. Those were my feelings at that time, and I still feel that way. If Lauren had been made to remove the headband, then everyone should have to remove whatever they have in their hair, and I would have gone the distance to see that it was enforced, even if it meant going all the way to the school board. Standing up for equal treatment in my opinion is not being disrespectful. I've had three children in the public school system, two who have already graduated, and I have not always agreed on school policy, but have never felt strongly enough to challenge it. This time I did. I have not always agreed on teacher's policies, and felt many times they were unfair or unreasonable, but let it go as it didn't seem worth the aggravation of pursuing it; this time I chose not to let it go. Are you a teacher? You seem to have reacted very strongly to this issue.

The reason I asked who was wrong here, and I do believe the vp was wrong, is because headbands had NEVER been interpreted as headgear, as no one has ever been asked to remove one as far as my daughter knows, and I'm sure she would have known if any one of her many friends and acquaintances had been asked to remove one previously.

I'm sorry that you think my daughter was 100% wrong in this situation. As I said before, she has never knowingly broken a school rule, and considering all the work she put into making this outfil, and how proud she was of it, and thought she was doing something good by showing patriotism, and school spirit, considering the school requested the students to do something special, I don't blame her for not blindly obeying the vp. I'm sure she was caught off guard, never expected to be chastised, and was completely surprised by the demand. I'm proud of her for standing up for herself. She didn't say no to be disrespectful, she said no because she felt attacked, and publicly embarrassed, and wrongly accused. As I said before, maybe their wouldn't have been so many young boys and men molested by their parish priests who were also their school teachers, club leaders, etc., if they had been taught not to blindly obey all people in an authority position. Obviously this in no way compares to that, but it is the same principle.

Lastly, I have NEVER stated that my daughter was a hero for doing what she did, and that was never the intention of my original post. I asked for other's opinions of the situation, and that is all. I don't think she is a hero, as her actions don't qualify to be labeled heroism. I do think she was brave for standing up for what she thought was unfair treatment, and I stand behind her 100%.

Now if I may give you a word of advice, ckr. You may be in for a long, rough ride, when your DD enters HS if you think she will always behave in a manner to which you would like her to. She is only nine now, and hormones haven't kicked in. I hope you will cut her a little slack now and then when the going gets rough. :)

disfanatiks

09-14-2002, 10:00 AM

Also, disfanatiks, how are you so sure Lauren was more concerned about how her hair would look, than in the principle of being made to take a headband off commemorating the USA and 9-11? If you were present and then made that statement, then I would give what you say more credibility.

Actually, I took that off of something you had stated.

she had her hair styled in accordance with the hair band, so her hair would have looked silly to her with the hair band off, as the top of her hair would have been flat with curls all around the sides and back.

Maybe I took it a little out of context. But truly I was stating what I felt, not necessarily what was fact. So I did not mean to even try to have credibility. That was just an opinion...not fact.

Please believe me when I say that all of your actions and going to the school and principal would be exactly what I would have done. I could not however have condoned my DD disobeying someone in authority. Now I perhaps am just a bit naive because my child is only 11 and in the 7th grade, so my views come from a mother of a younger child. But even as a teenager I would expect that she would show respect even if she was in total disagreement and then we would pursue the proper channels to address the problem.

I DO feel awful and I AM extremely saddened by what happened to your DD. It is certainly my hope that this will not scar her last two years of high school.

Mai Ku Tiki

09-14-2002, 10:05 AM

I don't know if ckr is a teacher, but I AM! In fact, a high school teacher. AND...I have a 16 1/2 year old son - hormones and all LOL!!:D

Our son HAS been taught to respect RULES.

In my classes, my students are expected to obey RULES! My kids love my classes. Their self-esteem grows when they are successful learners who have control over their emotions and behaviors

In my job, I am expected to obey RULES!

In our nation, we are expected to obey RULES!

In our civilized society, we are expected to follow basic RULES of behavior. It is the way of the world. If we all consider this system 'kow-towing', then we have individuals behaving as they please instead of for the good of the whole....hmmm....maybe this is why so many of our fellow DISer's complain of rude behavior at our WDW parks and resorts????
:( :( :(

Anyway, to compare compliance with a dress code issue and molestation of children is quite a stretch IMHO. Please see my earlier post for more on how dress codes are devised.

If we raise our kids to resent all 'authority figures', do you really expect them to comply when someone says, "OK, class-please open your books to page..." or "Tonight for homework....."

The hard part is teaching kids to recognize the difference between good and bad authority. But we are parents...that's why we get the big bucks, right? The pay-off is a well-adjusted young adult who knows how to accept direction without taking it personally, but also knows to challenge unfair treatment through proper channels and in a respectful manner.

Do we adults really coast through life never having to follow rules we disagree with? Speaking personally, I've always been an activist who has confronted tons of issues and we encourage our son to do the same as he writes for his school newspaper or thru his school clubs. But we would NEVER tolerate his blatant disrespect to an adult in his school. If he has a problem with a teacher or a rule, we all handle it calmly and in a civilized manner.

If this original post turns out to be a dress code issue, address this and get clarification on the dress code AND THEN WORK TO CHANGE IT! If this was an attack on patriotism, address it AT A BOARD OF ED MEETING!

Sorry if this upsets some, but the original poster asked for opinions...
Unless we are reclusive billionaires, learning how to navigate the hierarchys in our lives is a necessary life-skill.

I wish people would stop viewing schools and teachers as the enemies. If this is how you feel, home-school your kids. If you send them to us every day, accept that they are part of the school community and have to follow the rules. Take the time to learn about your schools, find out what the rules are...work to change them if you don't like them. But PLEASE STOP conveying the message to your kids that no one can tell them what to do, and then getting upset when your kids don't learn. I can't force anyone to learn. They have to come to me willing to learn! And they are not willing to accept education when they view teachers/schools as the enemy and themselves as victims!:(

MerryPoppins

09-14-2002, 11:06 AM

I think we may be losing sight of the fact that she didn't blatantly disregard a rule. She just didn't interpret the rule the way the vice-principal did. Sounds like lots of other girls didn't either.

Yes, she did refuse to take it off. That was defiant. Maybe that was wrong. Still, sometime we all have to learn to stand up for ourselves. She didn't think the rule was wrong from my understanding, she just didn't think that headbands were considered headgear. I think she was within her rights to question and I think it's interesting that the administration now apparently has agreed with her.

Wouldd I agree if she had simply disregarded a rule? No way! I think kids should respect authority, too. My kids have been taught to respect adults, especially at school. My daughter is 11 and she would have taken the headband off and probably cried. Still I respect the fact that this young lady stood up for what she felt was her right.

In this day and time, I think we need to take the time to teach our kids to think for themselves. They can't just blindly do what they are told, these days. Too many adults out there are real sickos. Look at what happened with some priests and kids in the Catholic Church.

Oh, and by the way, I am a teacher, too. Rules are important, but questioning interpretations is fair. Just my opinion. I'm not trying to fight. Just wanted to share my opinion. You are welcome to disagree with me. :D

Val

09-14-2002, 01:04 PM

It is important to teach children that SOMETIMES it is okay to stand up for what you believe. Not disrespectfully, not rudely, but firmly to stand up. Children also need to understand that there are consequences for standing up- being sent home, losing priviledges or ability to be part of a group. Sometimes it is worth the effort, sometimes it is not. The children must carefully weight their options and decide if the issue is important enough for them to pay the consequences. If we do not teach children to do this, we do not stop social injustice or wrong. Think what would have happened if individuals did not stand up in the back of the bus, did not defend thosse being persecuted, did not stand up to prevent wrongdoing. Fortunately (or unfortunately), we learn as we grow up what is worth standing up for. In three years I would love to ask your daughter if this was one of those times. Sometimes we "stand up" for really stupid ideas. Other times the ideas are of tremendous importance.

As a university instructor, one of my huge frustrations is in getting students to question rather than just accept. I have tried to get students to stand up for what they believe by giving out incredibly (and VERY obviously) one-sided ridiculous arguments. My students just SIT there and when questioned tell me that since I am the teacher they are to just repeat what I said! No wonder some of my colleagues get away with what they do!!!! Students need to question (albeit politely and appropriately) what they feel is wrong. Sometimes it turns out that they are wrong and they learn a broader perspective or accept a teacher's reasonings. Other times it is us teachers who learn from our students. I am hoping that the VP learned tolerance from your daughter (although it sounds like she might need a little practice on the "gracefully bucking the system" behaviors!)......I remain proud of your daughter for standing up with what she believed in, and more importantly, for a willingness to pay the consequences for her beliefs.

TeresaNJ

09-14-2002, 02:46 PM

Mai Ku Tiki, as I've stated repeatedly, my daughter did not think she was breaking a rule. If she thought wearing a headband was breaking a rule, she wouldn't have done it, nor would I have allowed it. OBVIOUSLY, it wasn't a RULE, or the asst. vp WOULD NOT have been able to tell her it was okay to wear the headband within fifteen minutes of my calling her, it would have had to gone before the schoolboard, wouldn't it???? As far as I know, teachers, principals, vp's etc., cannot change a rule on a whim. Therefore, I maintain as I did before, that there was NO RULE on wearing headbands.

Also, I am not comparing complying with a school dress code issue to the molestation of children. I am comparing teaching children to BLINDLY obey authority figures, no questions asked. I wish people would really read what I've written before they make comments. I am talking about teaching children to stand up for what they believe in, and not be afraid to speak up for fear of punishment or retaliation.

Also, I have never viewed a school or teachers as the enemy, and I would never tell my children such. I have great respect for anyone who is a teacher, I'm sure it is an incredibly hard job. Not all teachers are good teachers though, let's face it, as not all nurses are good nurses, etc. I can't tell you how many patients I have who blindly follow what their doctor tells them, because he is THE DOCTOR, even though the advice may not be good for them.

I don't think anyone hear advised or suggested to teach children to resent all authority figures, that is not what I interpreted the message to be.

Also, do you tolerate blatant disrespect to a child in your school by a teacher? That is the way I perceive my daughter was treated by the vp, as I was myself. Initially she wouldn't explain to me why Lauren couldn't wear her handband, she just kept saying, "It's in the student handbook, which by the way, it was not", and she left me on hold for fifteen minutes, after which I hung up and called back, and then she told me it was okay to wear the headband. As I also said earlier, she lied to me when she told me she was just investigating a teacher's complaint, when she was the one who initiated the whole incident. Is that showing respect or showing my daughter that it is OKAY for an authority figure to lie?

The bottom line is my daughter DID NOT break a RULE, as there was never any rule to be broken. If it was a rule, and the vp bent it so that my daughter could wear her headband, who is setting the bad example?

I assume you consider it disrespectful for a student to say no to a teacher or authority figure's demand, no matter what that demand might be. I don't consider it disrespectful. I do respect everyone's right to their opinion though, and I thank you for taking the time to state it.