PDA

View Full Version : DEBATE: Mr. Scoop’s Challenge


Another Voice
09-10-2002, 02:43 AM
In a thread and in a private message, Mr. Scoop has asked me to provide specific examples of what I would do to turn WDW around if I was suddenly appointed Grand Gumbah. And specifics, not just the “give ‘em quality” line of my other postings. I hope our kind moderators will give me a little leeway and verge from the traditional news and rumors. I generally hate these make-believe games, but I think it’s only fair to give others the chance to play Statler and Waldorf.

And since I was the one that first mentioned “cold hard business” I think it’s only right that I play by my own rules. It’s much too easy to suggest pouring in $300 million to build Beastly Kingdom. Besides, that’s not very practical at the moment.

So I’ve written down a group of ideas that – taken together – I think would fulfill Mr. Scoop’s criteria from his message. Unfortunately a few ideas have turned out to be a rather long post. Rather than publish it all at once, I’ve decided to drop them out a few at a time for people to comment on and bash as they choose. If no one cares, I’ll stop.

So here are my first suggestions for gang to pick apart and the one that most directly addresses the Character Show and nighttime test runs issue:


Weenies aren’t just for the parks.

This whole topic started because of the proposed Character Show as a way to keep people in the Magic Kingdom longer. The closing-time spectacular (or weenie) is a good concept that’s proven successful at Epcot and the Disney/MGM Studios. And adding one to the Magic Kingdom seems like a no-brainer. But this is not the time to be no-brained.

Nothing screams “value” to a guest like “free” does. So – how about a new fireworks show in the middle of the Seven Seas Lagoon? It serves the same purpose as a closing show at the Magic Kingdom (people will stick around in the park waiting for the show), but this one has other benefits. First of course is that it suddenly becomes an instant “perk” for guests at the Disney resorts. Gee – fireworks from your hotel without having to squint into the distance. Disney already charges extra for “fireworks” view rooms so it’s a proven draw.

And since it’s a new venue, it would be great opportunity to try new effects and new shells. Something low level over water – but still with tremendous sightlines from 360 degrees will produce a show that’s completely different than the traditional castle show. And the scale will make it very different than Epcot’s show. The second key element of “value” is something that’s unique and different. Sure, Sea World can shoot up the same shells as Disney does – but can they do this?

Next, it’s FREE and people will always love that. No “having” to go to the Magic Kingdom – but just think about how many of those people will choose to eat at a resort restaurant or shop in a resort shop. And gee, if they’re going all the way to the north end of the property they might as well stop in at the MK anyway. Why do you think casinos in Vegas plop volcanoes and fountains and pirate ships out in front? And just think about all those other revenue possibilities that go along with a “free” show. Don’t you think a picnic dinner on that grassy area besides the docks would be a fun way to wait for the fireworks?

A centralized show is also a great way to get across the idea of “Walt Disney World” as a resort. Too often it feels that WDW is no longer a coherent whole, just four parks, a cluster of hotels and a few other tourist attractions all competing for a guest’s attention and wallet. A key way to increase the average guest’s perception of value to make WDW seem larger than its parts. A show that’s “property-wide” instead of tied to a single park will help to reinforce the entire resort.

And no, this one show in and of itself will not cause anyone to sudden decide to visit WDW. That problem will need to be tackled from many different directions.

P.S. if fireworks won’t work then just put in some other stunning show. And without actors you’d be amazed about how cheap these things are to produce.

mjstaceyuofm
09-10-2002, 09:01 AM
First off, I think I would like to hear more of your ideas. This is fair game for a topic I think. Next, on to the discussion.So – how about a new fireworks show in the middle of the Seven Seas Lagoon? It serves the same purpose as a closing show at the Magic Kingdom (people will stick around in the park waiting for the show), but this one has other benefits.Is the problem that people are not sticking around long enough in the parks? My impression was just the opposite - people are upset that the park closes so early (at least I am). Or is it that not enough people stick around (in Disney's eyes) for Disney to justify keeping the park open?
A centralized show is also a great way to get across the idea of “Walt Disney World” as a resort. Too often it feels that WDW is no longer a coherent whole, just four parks, a cluster of hotels and a few other tourist attractions all competing for a guest’s attention and wallet. I would also agree with this statement. Case in point. The family and I usually stay at OKW. As usual, we don't rent a car but like to get to other hotels to eat. Well, POFQ is just around the corner (we used ot frequent Bonfamille's before it closed :mad: ), but try walking there with no sidewalks. We complained to the folks at PO and at OKW and got the same story - we're separate business units and no one wants to front the money for a sidewalk or path connecting the two resorts. This is a bad strategy as far as I'm concerned. WDW should be a coherent place that does not compete against itself for $. I just don't get it sometimes.

I like the idea of a nighttime Seven Seas show, but I wonder how much infrastructure beyond the show would be required to make it work. I'm thinking speakers around the lagoon, added viewing vistas at all the resorts and outside the MK and perhaps even some more restaraunts. Just some thoughts.

Keep 'em coming AV...

Dad of 5
09-10-2002, 09:30 AM
While I think it would be a super idea to have another fireworks show, would the WDW mgmt reply "We already have the water parade nightly. It runs across the entire Seven Seas Lagoon, and is visible from all the area resorts. And it's free. And we're already doing it. NEXT!"

Just "another" another voice (if those two words aren't trademarked :smooth: ).

Bstanley
09-10-2002, 09:36 AM
Sounds like a good show/idea. I know I enjoy the fireworks over Seven Seas Lagoon during Mickey's Very Merry Christmas Party a lot and this would be bigger and 'badder'.

I hate to sound like a 'suit', but with a show like this you would also see increases in dinner reservations at the monorail resorts as well as keeping people in the MK.

Now how do we work in the Electric Water Parade?

P.S. - You know Scoop, making AV give away good ideas will probably end up costing him money. As a consultant ideas are a part of his stock in trade. :-)

P.P.S. It's modestly interesting that the first idea didn't involve extending the hours.

Peter Pirate
09-10-2002, 09:36 AM
One problem I see is a possible increase in transportation issues if it were to catch on & people arrived just for the "spectacular" - Issue's that I'm sure could be dealt with easily though.

I semi-disagree with Mr. Voice's assesment that (a relatively simple show like) this wouldn't be somthing that woud make people come back to Disney as depending upon how elaborate they decided to be, it very well could be a show stopper...People do/have decided to come to WDW based on Illuminations after all...

:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

KNWVIKING
09-10-2002, 09:46 AM
Haven't they already done fireworks out on the lagoon ? In Dec we were spinning around in a water mouse and got a chance to watch workers setting up what was supposed to be a huge display on one of the islands. I'm pretty sure it had something to do with Walt's 100th. Regardless, I'm a fireworks fanatic so let the boomimg begin.

Sarangel
09-10-2002, 10:51 AM
Scoop, I like your idea. Create something like the fountain show at the Bellagio in Las Vegas, but add fireworks a la M. Voice. There's an infrastructure issue - building fountains, floats for the fireworks, lighting, music, etc. But it would go a long way towards creating a percieved value.

On the other hand, as Devil's advocate, they tried this at DCA and it didn't work. Last Christmas they created Luminaria (low level fireworks and water effects) for the DCA Pond and, while it was cute, it didn't draw the guests in. I guess we've gotten used to the Jumbo-sized Weenies, and that's what it would take at WDW.

The only other problem I can see with one of us floating an idea on a public board like this is that it seems like that would be a way to guarantee that nothing like what we envision would ever occur, given the lawsuit-happy culture we live in (sorry, scoop, I know lawyers need to make a living too). :)

Sarangel

Lewisc
09-10-2002, 11:20 AM
Go back and read Tikimans post on the problem at POLY this July 4th. This will only work if they can control the amount of non-resort guests who hang out for the free show. I like the idea but I'm not sure if the monorail resorts need that much help in filling rooms and restaurants.

I'd move (or build an additional TTC) by DD. Create the Universal experience where you end your day into shops, restaurants and PI. May have to build a parking garage and a monorail (or train) to the parks. Take care of all the people entering from the I-Drive area. As an alternative build something by WWS. Keep the non-resort guests out of the middle of WDW (cut down traffic).

DisneyKidds
09-10-2002, 12:22 PM
I certainly like the idea of fireworks over 7 Seas Lagoon. Cool. Great benefit for the resort guests. Takes even more of the magic outside of the parks and makes the whole MK resort areas more of an all-encompassing attraction. How cool is it to be at a resort, or on a boat, or the monorail, etc. and see the Electrical Water Pageant float by? Well, it is really cool and is often just stumbled upon. Fireworks would be 10x that cool.

However....................

I don't see this idea as doing much to address the goal of a MK evening ending event. I say so primariy due to viewing. Using new elements, low level shells over the water, etc., etc. would be great. However, fireworks over the Lagoon could probably not be viewed effectively (as a park closing event) from inside the MK. Where would all those people stand?

Now, the fireworks over the Lagoon in addition to an evening ending event inside the MK.......now you are talking.

MikePezz
09-10-2002, 01:10 PM
I remember hearing years back about a proposed water pageant to be done in the lagoon between the boardwalk and Yacht and Beach Clubs. It was supposed to be based on Noah's Arc and use smaller light screens than the Seven Seas Lagoon version. Anyone else remember hearing this rumor back in the early 1990's? It was as if Disney was trying to find something to perk up the Epcot resorts (well, the magic kindgom premium hotels get a the electric water pageant, the epcot resorts should get something).

Every new years eve, fireworks are shot off from one of the islands in the middle of the seven seas lagoon, so your idea Scoop is not far fetched at all. We stayed at the Grand last new year's and had a great view of the show (they were coordinated with the fireworks at the Magic Kingdom).

raidermatt
09-10-2002, 02:41 PM
DK- The idea would probably be to have the 7 Lagoons show soon after MK's closing time. This would encourage guests to stay in MK until near closing.

I think the Pirate is right, any transportation issues could be dealt with. With viewing areas all around the Lagoon, there should be plenty of spots available, so no need to leave the park early and get a good spot.

Now, would it work? What goals would it accomplish?

Well, it would definitely add value to the WDW resort as a whole, particularly the resorts in the area. No question about that, and if it can be done relatively inexpensively as AV says, then on the surface at least, it would be cost justifiable.

It would increase the demand for restaurants and rooms with a view, as AV said.

It would certainly provide another option, which we know is a value for guests.

Would it keep people in the MK until closing, just as the parade and fireworks do? Probably.

Potential drawbacks? It could actually draw people out of the other three parks early to get over to the Lagoon.

The demand might not be as high as we think.

However, the main point is that this is EXACTLY the type of idea WDW should be mulling over. Its the kind of idea that should be discussed, studied, and maybe even tested.

Without more data (surveys, impacts of other decisions, etc), its difficult to really say yes or no on whether this should be implemented. But its definitely worth exploring...

Testtrack321
09-10-2002, 04:42 PM
How about having a fireworks show shown simultaniously on all the body's of water on property and in all the parks? Lazers, fireworks, and higlighting lots of parks. People would stay more than 3 nights to see all the parts of the shows at each location.

DisneyKidds
09-10-2002, 04:44 PM
DK- The idea would probably be to have the 7 Lagoons show soon after MK's closing time. This would encourage guests to stay in MK until near closing.

Agreed. Close the park and then have this Show. However, I still think there would be a plethora of logistics issues.

Picture, if you will, a MK closing - even in the offseason and especially if the majority of the guests stuck around. Even with off season crowds, it is still a cattle call. Sure, not like the summer, but there are still a lot of people. So you send them out of the MK. Do they try and glimpse the fireworks as they wait in line for the monorail or sit on a boat to the TTC? That isn't much of a show. Or do you do the fireworks long enough after close that the exodus dissipates and people find a viewing place? If you do this, are the majority of people going to stick around for that 30+ minutes? What are the viewing places? Would the majority of people want to invest the time to get to one of the resorts to see the show, and then back to wherever afterward? Would resort guests complain about the resorts being overrun?

I think it is a great idea, it just not to be sold as any kind of MK closing event.

DVC-Landbaron
09-10-2002, 06:08 PM
With one single idea, even if he had never uttered a word before this, AV shows - CLEARLY, that he "GETS IT"!!!!

Thanks AV!! :bounce:

HorizonsFan
09-10-2002, 06:20 PM
An EXCELLENT idea!
As far as viewing areas go, I think the unfinished walkway towards the GF could handle quite a large number of people as well as the monorail resorts. This could generate extra revenue in the form of Seven Seas Lagoon Show cruises as well...
Keep 'em coming AV!

DisneyFanGuy
09-10-2002, 06:24 PM
A Seven Seas lagoon show is a great idea! It would absolutely unite the resort, and add a huge dash of magic. I love love love the idea. Disney could even build special viewing areas in the premier hotels and offer a desert banquet like DL does with Fantasmic.

It does NOT, however, deal with the desire to keep people longer in the MK. People would leave and try to make the show.

How about this. Do a full blown show in the Rivers of America area similar to how DL handles Fantasmic? A completely different plot line, new effects.........

If they build it people will come.

YoHo
09-10-2002, 07:22 PM
Wait wait wait, now What problem are we trying to solve?

The issue is getting people to the parks, not keeping them there longer. I would bet that if the parks were open til 10 in the off season, there would be a reasonable number of people there til 10. the issue is one of costs and getting more people there to spend more money. This accomplishes that.

I would like to add that if they remain running during the show, the Monorail and big boats should have the music piped in.



As to the Legalities of this ever happening, I bet Disney could get around it if they liked the idea (maybe Scoop or AV should pitch it to an insider) I mean their lawyers are knee deep in Pooh right now (best double entandre ever) but they could work it out and I know I for one would give up any rights to any idea if it meant that Disney World would be improved.

EUROPA
09-10-2002, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by YoHo
Wait wait wait, now What problem are we trying to solve?

The issue is getting people to the parks, not keeping them there longer. I would bet that if the parks were open til 10 in the off season, there would be a reasonable number of people there til 10. the issue is one of costs and getting more people there to spend more money. This accomplishes that.



No..no ..no that is a problem that Disney made up. They need the same number of people to spend more money so they can fund the other parts of the company. The parks still prodcuce about the same profit margins that they have for years.

Like I've said in another post until everybody agrees on what the real problem is then point is moot and people will keep draging the post to slove two different "problems"

YoHo
09-10-2002, 07:41 PM
My Reference was only to the problem AV's solution solves. IF that is not the issue other people think needs solved then obviously we are all on different pages.

EUROPA
09-10-2002, 08:31 PM
See that's just it, not everybody agrees on what the problem is or else we would not be having these post back and forth .

DVC-Landbaron
09-10-2002, 09:52 PM
Folks! I’m not very good at what ifs. And I stink at the creative game too. I am certainly no Walt when it comes to that. But I can delve deeply into a philosophical or logical question and feel rather comfortable there!

So... Like I've said in another post until everybody agrees on what the real problem is then point is moot and people will keep draging the post to slove two different "problems" There is only one problem as far as I can see. It’s getting people back into thinking that WDW is the “BEST”! Period!! Sure they have a good time at IOA. And once in a while a roller coaster junkie even needs a Six Flags fix. But DISNEY!!! Ahhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!! Now that’s the stuff that’ll knock your socks off!! Can you believe it!! EVERY NIGHT!! They do this mind blowing, obscenely wonderful, thing(!! Is it fireworks? No it's bigger!!!) in the middle of the lagoon!! AND IT’S TOTALLY FREE!!! You want to talk VALUE!!! WOW!!

That, is the problem that AV solves with one concept. And done with “QUALITY” it is a sure-fired, “WALT at his greatest, “give the public everything you can give them” winner!! And it’ll rake in the bucks!!!

mjstaceyuofm
09-11-2002, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by EUROPA
...Like I've said in another post until everybody agrees on what the real problem is then the point is moot and people will keep dragging the post to solve two different "problems"
To satisfy my own curiosity - what is the "other" problem we're referring to? That of the parks keeping the rest of the company afloat?

Sounds to me like Scoop and AV's game is about making WDW successful to LB's standards while meeting Disney's current financial criteria (i.e. meeting a certain profit level that is used for the rest of Disney...). Did that make sense? :crazy:

Anyway, I think for this idea of a SS Lagoon "weenie" to be successful there's more to it than just parading out some barges and shooting off fireworks. It's the infrastructure, the marketing of this new "weenie", er, event, and most importantly it's going to force WDW to take on an approach that does not separate the finances of book x from book y. There'll have to be coordination between the park, resorts, transportation, etc. and I'm not just talking about making sure there's enough busses to get people home at the end of the night. What "pot" of money would this come from or would each endeavor have to pay for it's share, i.e. would the Poly be responsible for making any improvements/additions in the form of viewing vistas and likewise for the other resorts? Would the MK be responsible for making sure it "meets" it's numbers if normal (well, not normal, but what we've been dealing with the past 3 years or so) closing time is 6 and they have to stay open 'til 8 to wait for sunset? And so on and so forth.

Just something to think about.

EUROPA
09-11-2002, 09:47 AM
The major "Problems" that get tossed around.

1. Disney only current problems is due to a downturn in the Economy after 9/11. As soon as people start to travel again everything will be fine and Disney will add back all that was cut.


2. Disney's current problems are due to failures in other areas of business that Disney is in. (Internet, ABC, Fox Family, Direct to Video, Movies, Cable) in turn they are making cuts into the Theme parks in order to finance those mistakes. These cuts in turn have hurt Disney's attendance. Along with this goes the fact that Disney is refusing to spend major money in it's state side parks and have tried to push half-completed(AK) and half-themed(DCA) parks on it's guest.

3 Some people even think there is no problem at all.

4. Disney's Problem in Flordia is due to Market saturaton.

5. I'm sure others will add here.....


So you see depending on which problem your trying to solve the means will be different.

mjstaceyuofm
09-11-2002, 10:06 AM
I would make the assumption that we're operating under the guise of problem #2 and only a slight amount of problem #1. (Personally, I think the 90's saw excesses that a ton of companies made significant income from and took that to be the standard - clearly the wrong line of thinking, especially for Disney in the case of attendance.)

Anyway, so we're trying to boost attendance and revenue generated, all while trying to up profit margins so WDW can support the rest of the company, and while trying to win back customers that have been put off with Disney's cutbacks and Disney's taking of the parks for granted. That's a tall order to fill. Can one "weenie" do that? I'm not so sure, but at least it's a start...

Tik Tok
09-11-2002, 12:05 PM
Usually, I'm all for these types of enhancements, but in this case, I think it would cause more problems than it would be worth. Plus, the Magic Kingdom resort area already has a free fireworks show - Fantasy in the Sky. Those fireworks can be seen anywhere on the Seven Seas Lagoon - they even pump the music into the resorts, the TTC, and around the Lagoon.

I just don't see the point of having another fireworks show in the Magic Kingdom area, and I think it would case way to many logistics nightmares. Maybe they could add a few barges to the lagoon and have more fireworks during the Fantasy in the Sky, but I really don't see the need to have a seperate show just for the Hotel guests when they already can watch the MK one.

I just think, in this case, the money would be better spent elsewhere at the resort -- like maybe fixing EPCOT and AK.

raidermatt
09-11-2002, 02:38 PM
Europa, you are listing possible causes to a problem.

The easiest way I can think to state the problem is that fewer people are going to WDW. Fewer people are going to the parks, and fewer are staying in the resorts. (Actually, it might be more accurate to say that attendance and bookings are not being maximized, causing revenues and profits to fall...)

Now the CAUSE of that is debateable. If one thinks the sole cause is the economy and is out of Disney's hands, then you're right, there's not much point in taking part in this discussion.

If one thinks the cause is market saturation, there is some merit to this discussion, as this person can still offer ideas, even if it means closing a park.

But many think the cause is a change in philosophy towards the parks, brought on by an inability to grasp what drives Disney's business, and a need to take money out of the parks to help other areas of the company. Those who believe this will debate when this change began, but that's not really relevant to this particular thread.

The point here is to offer fairly specific suggestions as to what Disney can do to get more people in the parks, get more people in the resorts, keep them wanting to come back, and spending money of course. (Well, in this thread its to discuss AV's idea(s)...)

YoHo
09-11-2002, 05:45 PM
I agree with Raidermatt, I actually don't think there is so much debate on the cause as you might think. Even the Car oners have changed their tune over the past year. The cause is irrelevent, we are looking for a solution to the attendence and company perception issues.

DVC-Landbaron
09-11-2002, 06:53 PM
(cough)

It's time for the next installment, my lord!!


(Geeze!! It's getting as bad as waiting for the next Hill article!!);)

EUROPA
09-11-2002, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by raidermatt
But many think the cause is a change in philosophy towards the parks, brought on by an inability to grasp what drives Disney's business, and a need to take money out of the parks to help other areas of the company. Those who believe this will debate when this change began, but that's not really relevant to this particular thread.

The point here is to offer fairly specific suggestions as to what Disney can do to get more people in the parks, get more people in the resorts, keep them wanting to come back, and spending money of course. (Well, in this thread its to discuss AV's idea(s)...)

...IF that is the reason though(which I think it is)...then why would any of these specifics even matter or be relevant? Disney is not at the point right now or for the past few years for that matter where they seem to want to do anything that may get more people in the parks or spend money on improving them like they did in the late 80's early 90's . They just want to milk them.

raidermatt
09-11-2002, 10:20 PM
I know what you are saying Europa, but these aren't predictions. The idea isn't to say what Disney WILL do, but instead what they SHOULD do.

Scoop asked for some practical examples of what we would do if we were calling the shots... so some are taking the challenge and playing the part of the dreamer.

Its just a way of visualizing how concepts like "give 'em quality" and "SHOW" can be applied in a practical way to acheive practical goals.

It might help some understand what others mean when they use these phrases.

And sometimes its just fun to play the part of Imagineer...

EUROPA
09-11-2002, 10:25 PM
Ok if that is the point of these threads then yeah I can see where it could be fun...man you guys would love it if I ran the zoo... I'm not sure if we would stay in business long but it would be fun while it lasted. :)

Another Voice
09-12-2002, 12:20 PM
Follow-up (sorry, it’s been a busy couple of days)

Fireworks, fountains, floats – all are acceptable. Disney has many people that are much more creative than I am and I am sure that can come up with something impressive (if they are allowed to). I used fireworks specifically because it invokes the size and impact that the show has to have. As Ms. Sarangel has pointed out, a poorly made show even with fireworks will fail. Yet something a “simple” as fountains can be an amazing draw as has been shown at the Bellagio in Las Vegas. Again, it’s all about quality.

The main point of the concept is that Disney needs think about the resort instead of individual profit centers. It seems to me that The Company needs to compete to get people to WDW, but all of their recent actions take for granted and all the energy goes into competing of money once the guests arrive.

More answers to Mr. Scoop's challenge shortly.

Bob O
09-12-2002, 01:14 PM
I missed so much due to computer problems!!!
But getting to a point DVC made is that when people think of "wow""best" in regards to new attractions disney isnt mentioned anymore. Spiderman out does anything disney has done in regards to putting together a exciting ride. Disney hasnt equaled MIB in regards to a interactive ride, when they had a chance with Buzz they took the cheap route and used a existing ride platform rather than do something new. RNRC is a good coaster but again pales in comparsion to IOA. Test Track was much hyped but didnt turn out to be the great ride it was supposed to be and was long overdue due to the construcxtion problems.
Disney needs a "e" type attraction to base a PR campaign about, like Tower of Terror did when it was new. They also need to redo dated attractions and give people a new reason to come and visit the parks. I think some people are getting a been their/done that attitude to wdw and need a new reason to come with so many other options out their, and Walts birthday campaign didnt cut it!!

DVC-Landbaron
09-12-2002, 07:04 PM
Ok. First things first. And I’ll go in order of things that bother me and not chronologically. So, with that in mind, we have my good friend Scoop, twisting things again!!Rather, the challenge (initially mocked by Baron but now eagerly awaited because his lord seige is involved, mind you...note to self: Commandeer Mr. Voice's log-in and post whatever I wish...doesn't matter what it is, good ole' Baron will suddenly agree...) ...(its a joke JG, just a joke)...I do know it’s a joke. See ---> :) But many things are said in jest....

So, to clarify (although I didn’t think it needed it.) What I mocked was not the concept of throwing out ideas. That’s old hat here from WAY before you arrived on the scene. I don’t play, but I enjoy the conversation of others. Ask YoHo! I think his EPCOT concepts are wonderful.

The mocking was in reference to Disney listening to us!! SCOOP! THAT’S ABSURD!! That is what I said. Let me dig out the paragraph, the whole paragraph, so there can be no mistake. (now, let me see. What thread was that in again?........... Ah! Here it is!!): Scoop! This time I’m really worried. You don’t really propose that we collectively brainstorm ideas that can salvage the company and Disney is going to listen to us, are you? Sorry, my man! I usually like to play with you. You make me think. But this!?!?! This is just a tad too silly for me!! But it did give me a good laugh! :crazy: Notice the salient phrase: “and Disney is going to listen to us”. THAT!!! is what had me in stitches.
I pressed the point again in another post which you ignored. Remember: Either way, as your lord seige has pointed out in his thread dedicated to this type of brainstorm, this type process will likely be both interesting and noticed.
He intimated that it may be interesting, but I gotta tell you Scoop, I’ve read his post(s) very carefully and I’ve found that the only reference to them ‘noticing’ was yours!! You were the one that said: Maybe I am the pie in the sky guy here, but I truly believe (and know) that Disney types observe the comments around boards like these.

I do think you are pie in the sky. And I couldn’t find any reference from AV that they think anything about these internet discussions (except maybe laugh at them)!! I’m afraid my cynical eye doesn’t see any pie up there at all!And I mean it. I don’t think there’s a chance in hell that they’ll “listen” to us. Now, I didn’t say they don’t look once in a while (more likely at WDWBLUES or RADP). But at best, we’re light amusement. Something they look at with mild disgust and more than a little disbelief!!!
However, nothing prevents say...a Magic Kingdom manager...from noticing an interesting idea. That makes sense too because if simply posting something on disboards prevented Disney from doing it, well, on some board, somewhere, it'd guess just about every idea possible has been posted by someone...See!! It’s this kind of thing that just puts me on the floor with laughter!! And I don’t mean to be mean. I really can’t believe that you, of all people, could believe this. What difference would it make even if that Magic Kingdom manager, surfing the DIS Boards, found anything worthwhile? What good would it do? As you so often point out, BURBANK IS IN CONTROL!!!!

As for my agreeing with AV, how could I not! He’s right!! But I don’t give him that “respect” lightly. He did it the old fashioned way! He EEEARNED it! As did many other here!! The old frozen guy makes a whole bunch of sense to me with almost every word he types!! Sir Larry is wonderful read. And I knew that my friends Gcurling and Mr. Matt were in car #3 (or at least two and a half) before they did! Why? Because I agreed with almost everything they said! (There are many others, but I can't name them all!!!)

It should come as no surprise that I would like AV’s idea. He ‘GETS IT”!! I have no questions and have very little to add to the concept. My mind is not very creative that way. But I sure know when it clicks! And this idea CLICKS!!!!



ps: I had some questions about your ideas (answering your own challenge) that you didn’t answer. Did you forget?

DVC-Landbaron
09-13-2002, 12:43 AM
Scoop. I’ve just re-read the following. And it ain’t pretty. It can be pretty, if you read it with my lilting voice and singosong tones. I hear it in my head and it is close to poetry!! But then I read it cold after an hour and found that a subtle change in inflection and I come of as downright combative!!! I sound WAY to serious and I think I may border on sounding arrogant and self serving. I don’t mean either. And every sentence! EVERY SENTENCE!!! (even the “how arrogant!!” Don't worry, you’ll get to it) is said with a smile and NO MALICE whatsoever. Your post was well thought out and balanced. I hope you take my response the same way.

First! Before we get too far. You make snide comments about my quotes all the time. I use it NOT to pick something apart but to be very precise. I also find it very useful as it makes me feel as though I’m having a conversation rather than giving a dissertation. Anyway, I don’t mean it as anything crafty or slick. I want accuracy and the ease of communication as close to verbalization as I can make it.Seriously though. Two of my sources (and really good friends) at WDW in management level positions have told me over dinner at various WDW restaurants that the "pulse" of WDW guests is often measured from sites like this, intercot, mouseplanet, etc. Yeah! And I know a guy who’s brother-in-law works for this man who had a friend who’s wife said, she heard on the party line that....

Look, if that’s what they said, that’s what they said. But I know how cynical “I” would react to a place like this if I were a WDW suit. And it ain’t a pretty picture pal, let me tell you!! I think we’re all a little nuts anyway and I LOVE it here!!! :crazy:

And I still say it doesn’t matter. They may try to gauge a “new” something, or float a trial balloon to see how much internet chatter they stir up. But to “listen” to us!! And implement change from that ‘listen’?!?!?! Come on, Scoop! Not a chance!! Especially those “Burbank” types you’re always on about. That's about all I can say on that topic. Sorry if it doesn't convince you or you don't believe me. No harm, no foul.Fair enough. The only reason I mentioned it is because of the obscenely slanted picture you painted about my “mocking” and apparent backpedaling when My Lord Voice posted. Stop skewing my posts and I’ll stop having to put quote upon quote to set the record straight. Deal? As for "getting it". I too would have my list. It would start with D-R, HorizonsFan, Tom, Another Voice, GC, etc.Again you misunderstand my meaning. I didn’t want to turn it into a popularity contest. I mentioned the others only because I tend to agree with virtually every word they post and there are others who enjoy AV status in my eyes. I sit and read their posts and simply nod, having little to add. My point was that AV just happened to be within that category. I guess I wasn’t clear enough. Personally, I don't think you "get it" in the sense of reality.Then you don’t get me!
I think you have remembered all the good and have subconsciously buried the bad.There’s nothing subconscious about it. I am very deliberate. VERY DELIBERATE!! Even with WFH, I think he's realistic in viewing that this regime has not always been bad (he seems to start it post-Wells more) or that the Card/Ron years were any more successful overall.WHAT ARROGANCE!!!”Realistic”!!! Really!! Because it coincides with your OPINION it has to be “realistic”!!!! The world according to Scoop!! Please let me know if I have any further lapses of “realism”. I just don't think you understand how reality and Disney interact and coexist.I don’t have to, for God’s sake!!! I’m on a messageboard!!!! Wake up, Scoop!!! I’m NOT running the company!! And neither are you!!! THIS ISN’T REAL!!! It’s only the DIS!! Loosen up and have fun. Take a position and go with it. Don’t you get that?

The little business trivialities don’t matter to me at all!! I don’t have to worry about them!! I only post what I know about (for the most part at least ;)). And that deals with the Disney philosophy!! NOT the Disney business. I leave that to others.

Believe me, you’re not the first. There have been Disney “business” apologists since these boards (and especially RAPD) began!! There are plenty of them (and you are a piker compared to Charlie Foxtrot or Bicker on RADP!! And I mean that as a compliment!!). But these sites were sadly lacking in someone with a vision. Someone who studied the concept and the implementation and NOT the profit and loss column. Now, you may have a problem with that vision. And that’s fine. We’ll talk. That’s why I’m here. I love the talk. But when we get too grounded in business realities, I usually bow out. Not only don’t I know enough about it, but I really could NOT care any less!!

I mentioned before that I was deliberate. Believe me I am. I can “see” all the issues. I can even understand the business realities. But I told myself long ago that I would deal only with the philosophical side. Cause to me that’s what’s important. And that was what was missing. That’s what many people didn’t see. They didn’t ‘see’ anything wrong with painting during the day. They didn’t ‘see’ anything wrong in E-ticket nights. They didn’t ‘see’ anything wrong with Dino-Rama. There were plenty who apologized for Disney due to business. There were other who apologized for the tough economy. There were still others that apologized for Disney for no particular reason at all, but hey(!) isn’t it better than Six Flags!!

There were a couple who waxed nostalgic about the past. And a couple that said it felt different today. But many just plodded along with whatever Disney “gave” us. But none of them never seemed to delve any deeper than “OH YEAH!! WELL IT WAS BETTER THEN!!!” There was NO ONE that really analyzed what Walt did. What he stood for. There was NO ONE who defended the “WALT” philosophy. With a little logic. With a little analysis. There was NO ONE to at least try to explain what the product really is. (Many still don’t know. They think they sell plush and hotel rooms. They haven’t figured out they sell experiences. Anyway, I digress!)

(please take the next with a grain of salt remembering at all times that this is only a messageboard. A little diversion, at best)

I decided that I would fill that role. So, your honor. Just as a lawyer can look at things from both side of the aisle, I also have that ability. I, however, CHOOSE to argue from one side of the aisle only. I find that consistency helps me stay true to the cause. If bicker is the BUSINESS of Disney. I am the PHILOSOPHY. And in the cold light of day neither is 100% right. I just hope to make people think. Your reaction to that new regime will be truly interesting to watch. I have a hunch you will be utterly crestfallen when you realize that what you remember as Disney is never going to come back--no matter who is heading the regime.Look Scoop. You don’t have the market cornered when it comes to reality. This really gave me a chuckle. OF COURSE I KNOW THAT!!! How many times have I said, “we’ll be NO worse off and HEY(!) maybe we’ll get lucky!!” GEEZE, Scoop. You take this stuff way too serious!! But, hey, truthfully my friend, your thinking is not a bad way to think. It's much better to be an idealist than not to care at all.FINALLY!!! A glimmer of understanding. YES!! Self professed!! Whew....da Scoop is long-winded tonight...Hmmmm. I hadn’t noticed! Seemed about right to me! 1. It appears that, unless you were being sarcastic, you agree with the World Showcase idea. Unique new entertainment, exhibits, personalities, musicians, food and drink and many other things "Sharing" a different country every year.NO SIR!!! No sarcasm at all!! It is BRILLIANT!!! Bravo again!!! The bungalows would certainly cost more than some other resorts BUUUUZZZZZZZ!!! SORRY!!!! You lose, but thanks for playing. We’ll give you some parting gifts. Maybe a copy of the “Quotable Walt Disney” so you can see how far this concept is from his. This scheme (sorry, can’t call it a plan) smacks of elitism, class distinction, and more of the Ei$ner thinking that I grew to HATE!! Your giving out experience for cash.
I think AKL just screams "I am a nighttime park" more than any other. I agree!! Well, maybe not more than any other, but I see what you mean. Why no go to lunch with those two “friends” and tell them directly.And regarding the advance fast passes, I'm sure we could figure a way to give AP holders with on-site reservations only, the equivalent.I don’t know how, but if you say so.... (hmmmm, he thinks. I thought he wanted real stuff not the “I’m sure we could figure a way...”? Oh well!!)Well, there you have. A long and very thoughtful post. I hope you take it the way it was intended. Frank, yet not insulting. ABSOLUTELY!!! I hope the same!!

Take care...

EUROPA
09-13-2002, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
There were plenty who apologized for Disney due to business. There were other who apologized for the tough economy. There were still others that apologized for Disney for no particular reason at all, but hey(!) isn’t it better than Six Flags!!


Landbaron, you're absolutely correct about that one(and many other things) if I see someone post that Disney is better then SF again I think I'm going to scream. Just how long do they think it will stay better if they keep accepting every cut, half-finished , half-assed themed park that Disney delivers?

mjstaceyuofm
09-13-2002, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
Seriously though. Two of my sources (and really good friends) at WDW in management level positions have told me over dinner at various WDW restaurants that the "pulse" of WDW guests is often measured from sites like this, intercot, mouseplanet, etc.Yeah! And I know a guy who’s brother-in-law works for this man who had a friend who’s wife said, she heard on the party line that....

Look, if that’s what they said, that’s what they said. But I know how cynical “I” would react to a place like this if I were a WDW suit. And it ain’t a pretty picture pal, let me tell you!! I think we’re all a little nuts anyway and I LOVE it here!!! :crazy:

And I still say it doesn’t matter. They may try to gauge a “new” something, or float a trial balloon to see how much internet chatter they stir up. But to “listen” to us!! And implement change from that ‘listen’?!?!?! Come on, Scoop! Not a chance!! Especially those “Burbank” types you’re always on about....
In Scoops defense there was a rather lengthy, interesting interview of Paul Pressler done by LaughingPlace.com last year (before the whole 9-11 thing) in which he clearly states that they pay attention to the internet and what's being said. Whether they act on it is a different story though, but they clearly pay attention and in some instances elude to the fact that it may affect their decision-making process...

Here's the link to that interview. (http://www.laughingplace.com/News-ID503110.asp) The comments specific to Disney monitoring internet traffic are on Page 3 (http://www.laughingplace.com/News-PID503120-503122.asp) of Part 2 of that interview.

DVC-Landbaron
09-13-2002, 08:50 PM
NEW CLASS OFFERING:

How to Win Friends and Influence People 101

Being taught by Scoop!!

Examples of what NOT to do!!I have. One of them really liked it. Fortunately, she's the smart one. Can we infer from this that your other friend is the dumb one!???

Way to go Scoop!!! Hope they weren’t paying attention today!! :jester:
Anyhow, like we've concluded many times before, our approaches are just different. I simply don't like the "theoritical" approach.And that’s the only one that makes any sense to me!!
Betsy gets on me alot because I try to "solve" everything. She's convinced that not everything has such a solution or, at least, I don't have it. Sounds like a smart woman!! Makes one wonder.... hmmm....

And that's fair. But, you don't teach a 29 year old new tricks.Try learning one when you’re 47!! (ya young punk, ya! ;))

My "Dis" goal is to provoke change rather than thought. Either inspire or frustrate someone into action.Yeah! We thought we could change the world back in the ‘60’s too! Ahhh! To be young....

Heck, it took almost 2 years to bug Mr. Voice enough that he would post some specific (and so far very interesting) ideas. That should tell you how unimportant many of us think this exercise is. Fun maybe. Interesting perhaps. But not very consequential in the grand scheme of things. And certainly not very likely to “change” anything.
Oh well, at least we both probably empathize with the Cubs. Another of life’s “pleasures” that one should look at philosophically. If not, you may go crazy!!! :crazy: Or worse!! You may find yourself on a message board talking to someone about having the power to ‘change’ things for next year’s team!!!!
So, combine that with my philosophy that WDW is more about "unique" experiences rather than equal pricing for all, and you'll find me much more excited about the Bungalows idea and less excited about the World Showcase idea I offered while you are just the opposite.Ahhh! Now I know how Ei$ners are born!!! Tell me, are you inept, too?* ;)






*It was a joke, Scoop. Only a joke!! :)

DVC-Landbaron
09-13-2002, 10:42 PM
In Scoops defense there was a rather lengthy, interesting interview of Paul Pressler done by LaughingPlace.com last year (before the whole 9-11 thing) in which he clearly states that they pay attention to the internet and what's being said. mjstaceyuofm,

Did you read the article? I may be missing something, but I didn’t see that he regarded ‘internet’ boards at all! In fact he rather seems “above it all”. Let’s see what he says: LP: What do you think of the Internet and fan sites and unofficial sites?
Pressler: Ahh .. I knew you were going to ask this question. You know, I would answer it very honestly, which is at the end of the day, what clearly is disturbing is when you see things - whether it be in the Internet or whether it be in the printed press - that are just not factually correct or that are rumors based on innuendo that don’t have any truth behind it. That’s hurtful and I don’t think that it serves a purpose. Having said that, I wouldn’t give the Internet up for a minute. The reason being is that if we truly believe our success is based upon our ability to meet the needs of our guests, then I want to hear it - the good, bad and indifferent - and that’s important. I take it with a grain of salt. I clearly look at things say "Ahhh! How could they possibly write that? That’s not true, I was in that meeting and that never happened!" That part is frustrating. But at the same time we want to do that, we want to hear it because there are nuggets of good ideas or nuggets of truth. We’re not perfect, we make mistakes and I want people to hold us to a standard that is perfection. I hope that when we do make mistakes, we are quick to react and make changes. And I am confident that we have been willing to try to do over the yearsSounds like a pile of garbage to me!! “Grain of salt”? “how could they possibly write that?” “That’s not true, I was in that meeting and that never happened!"?? The rest is rhetorical nonsense. Political answers 101 when LaughingPlace is asking the questions!!
LP: On a more personal note, as you know, you have been vilified on the Internet for years - probably more than any other Disney figure. How do you handle that?
Pressler: You know what? I can only look at it and say I must be doing my job (laughs). Because it was interesting, I looked back at an article that was written in August of 1955 in which the critics just took Walt apart. "This Disneyland park is a debacle, it’s a mess, it’s this, that and the other thing." And you know what he said? "What do the critics know?" At the end of the day, he too had has critics for his movies and his theme parks, so the only way I can look at it is flattery (laughs). You know what? I see it as a positive thing that there are enough changes and exciting things going on that people want to talk about it. Otherwise, the critics wouldn't care and that would be a horrible legacy.Am I totally mistaken or did he just equate himself to Walt!! :rolleyes:

OK!! In the immortal words of Mr. Kidds: ‘nuff said!!!!




Nah! Changed my mind. One other thing! When you first click onto the second link, the page pops up, and this is the first thing you read: LP: Disney fans have a very strong opinion of Walt would do and Walt wouldn’t do? How hard is it to make decisions about the parks with that in mind?
Pressler: It’s very hard. I’d like to think that I have become more of a student of Walt and his philosophies.It had me laughing out loud!!!



Awe heck!! I think it’s time for a picture!!!




http://www.wdwblues.com/fun_and_games/draw_on_paul/parrotheads_paul.jpg

DisneyKidds
09-14-2002, 01:03 AM
LOL. LOL. LOL 1000x. Baron, by far that last post was your best ever. PP hasn't a clue. Thanks for the laugh. That picture is the greatest :).

mjstaceyuofm
09-14-2002, 02:51 PM
Hey - information is information - good or bad.... ;)

At least he knows the internet is out there....

Yes, PP is a :jester:

DVC-Landbaron
09-15-2002, 05:09 PM
Scoop!! USE QUOTES!!! Before you started in on me, you used to give a few references at least. Now there are none!!! And it's been so long since I responded that I forgot all the paragraphs to which you are alluding!! PLEASE!! Give a little of mine so it's more conversational!!

(in the mean time, I'm going back and try to decipher this thing.):confused: