Black and white photography

[sbpuckett]

I have a dire question and figured I'd come to the pros... do any of you still use black and white film, point and shoots? If so, could someone point me in the direction of some good online resources? Here's the problem:

I am a high school Art teacher and have been given the entire photography load... which hasn't been taught at our school in 2 years. The text the school has is eons old and completely outdated. I haven't taught a photography class since doing my student teaching in 1996... I've never seen a photography curriculum nor does our system have one. I'm completely overwhelmed and lost and can't seem to make any headway on the net. Since they've handed the class over to me I'm hoping to make enough of an impact that they will allow me to add photography 2 next year and teach digital as well... So any advice or help at this point is better than anything I have.

TIA!!

[Gdad]

I am a little confused- especially by the point and shoot part of your question. What exactly are you teaching? Is it traditional B&W Film Photography including development of silver film and wet prints? (Which is what I learned in High School Photography more years ago that I care to admit...) If so the text the school has being eons old may not be such a problem- the subject matter is eons old relatively speaking.

[sbpuckett]

I am a little confused- especially by the point and shoot part of your question. What exactly are you teaching? Is it traditional B&W Film Photography including development of silver film and wet prints? (Which is what I learned in High School Photography more years ago that I care to admit...) If so the text the school has being eons old may not be such a problem- the subject matter is eons old relatively speaking.

Yes, this is what I'm teaching. The problem with the text is that it was written with students with some type of attention span in mind... not the generation of students we have today who change focus every second it seems like...

[dr_zero]

I surprised they are wanting you to use B&W film with the chemicals and all the eviromental concerns now days.

You can get B&W film and shoot it in a P&S camera sure it can be done.

Have you thought about shooting digital photos and converting them to B&W most high school kids now days have a digital camera already.

Herea are some links that might help some

http://photo.net/photography-education-forum/00QRBE

http://www.icp.org/site/c.dnJGKJNsFqG/b.2017177/

http://scphoto.com/

http://www.pvsd.k12.pa.us/TechEd/780c.pdf

[Gdad]

I don't know- given your (well founded I'm sure) concerns with the students attention span I think it will be difficult to make the technical aspects of photography and development very interesting even with new books. As a kid I remember it was pretty amazing to see the prints develop right before my eyes- but now it's a digital world and people expect instant results. I think I have to agree with Dr_Z- why not just teach digital in the first year? Especially as an Art Teacher- that would allow you to focus on bringing out their creativity- way more important to photography than understanding what happens to a roll of Tri-X when you throw it in some D-76. And some cool digital content they could email or post on their myspace pages or whatever would keep them much more interested than a B&W print they can take home and have their parents hang on the refrigerator.

[BattyMcDoon]

College's still start out teaching Black and White photography with chemicals and silver because they want kids to have the photography basics and learn how it all started and such. I have a simple Canon EOS Rebel K2 35mm. It's not a "point and shoot", it is a manual camera but it's nothing crazy or super special but it takes very nice pictures. Hope that helps a little.

[princess.chell]

I started my high school's photography courses last year (sophomore year). We have basic photo, color photo, advanced photo, and independent study (the last two can be taken at the same time). Basic photo is b&w film. Color can be either digital or film, your choice. Same with advanced and indepedent. Last year in basic we did everything from load the film to the final prints. I enjoyed it so much and learned so much more about photography because of this.
So to get to your question, the texts we used (welll were given) were really outdated too. I think I skimmed them and read only the most important parts outlined by my teacher. But my photo teacher was really good and explained things to us instead of using the texts. Also we used a vocab sheet alot because (as you said) it was more tailored to just looking at it quick for our attention spans. I thought the vocab sheet helped alot because I could refer to it quick. Um...as for places to look, I'm not sure. I have my sheets from basic somewhere in my room and I could upload and send them to you if you want to look at them.
Thinking back to what I just wrote, I'm not sure if any of that helped... but I hope it did and feel free to PM me with questions or stuff. Being in high school and in photography I may be able to shed some light on a student's perspective...

[DueyDooDah]

I am currently a student with the New Yourk Institute of Photograpahy. NYIP still teaches B&W photography but only the theory. There is no practical work using film. If you have the flexibility in your curriculum, I would suggest giving more of a history and relationship of film B&W photography (which is important to professional photogs) to digital and skip the practical aspects of film.

[bob100]

College's still start out teaching Black and White photography with chemicals and silver because they want kids to have the photography basics and learn how it all started and such.

I find that amazing, somewhat like starting out in math class using a slide rule or going to a beginning computer class with a mechanical geared analog computer because that's "how it all started", etc.

do photography classes really buy and use developing "hypo" chemicals and use dark rooms?

[sbpuckett]

These have all been great comments and everyone has been helpful... first, given the lateness of my original post... I mistakenly said Point and shoot when I meant to say manual cameras. Unfortunately our area supervisor for the Art dept. (also a big-wig for the VAEA) in very "old school" and believes in the idea that all kids should experience the film process.... I'm not sure I disagree, it just makes it more difficult to teach since this is considered so archaic and there aren't many good resources.

I had a feeling that I wouldn't use a text much, but that means I've got A LOT of handouts and such to develop in the next week and a half. I just want to make sure I actually cover everything that say, a college level class would. These are upperclassmen, but that doesn't always mean what it used to:(

We don't teach digital photography in our district except at the Art magnet school.... but I'm hoping to get permission to teach that as a second year class beginning next year or the following year.

OK, thanks for the advice so far and feel free to add anything else as I'll be checking back in...

[dr_zero]

These have all been great comments and everyone has been helpful... first, given the lateness of my original post... I mistakenly said Point and shoot when I meant to say manual cameras. Unfortunately our area supervisor for the Art dept. (also a big-wig for the VAEA) in very "old school" and believes in the idea that all kids should experience the film process.... I'm not sure I disagree, it just makes it more difficult to teach since this is considered so archaic and there aren't many good resources.

I had a feeling that I wouldn't use a text much, but that means I've got A LOT of handouts and such to develop in the next week and a half. I just want to make sure I actually cover everything that say, a college level class would. These are upperclassmen, but that doesn't always mean what it used to:(

We don't teach digital photography in our district except at the Art magnet school.... but I'm hoping to get permission to teach that as a second year class beginning next year or the following year.

OK, thanks for the advice so far and feel free to add anything else as I'll be checking back in...


I would check with some of the different companies like Kodak and Fuji for film and camera wise check with like Nikon and Canon to see if they have any programs for schools.
I would also talk to Porters to see if maybe they have something since they are one of the few places that sells chemicals.

Also I was thinking how about this for a handout book they can use in class and take with them as kind of cheat sheet when they are out and about and have a question.
If you talk to Kodak maybe you can get them in bulk free or at least at a reduced rate as a educator.

Kodak How to Take Good Pictures, Revised Edition (Paperback)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/034539710X/sr=1-5/qid=1219155017/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1219155017&sr=1-5&seller=

Also look at this thread it has lots of Photography terms and slang that you might can integrate into a lesson or make into a hand out to teach the lingo.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1894822&page=1&highlight=basics

LINKS

Porters
http://www.porters.com/shorturl_pcs.mvc?c=D1

Nontoxic darkroom chemicals
http://silvergrain.com/labs/index.php/Nontoxic_darkroom_chemicals

Kodak information on dark rooms for Educators and Hobbyists
http://www.kodak.com/cluster/global/en/service/faqs/faq5026.shtml

[dr_zero]

This is a link to a college program but maybe they have something similar for high school if you contact them.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/member/ProPass/education/educators.jhtml

Committed to education.

Kodak wants to help you help your students. That's why we're offering you the opportunity to introduce your students to KODAK Products and our commitment to education. If you teach two- or four-year programs that offer photography and fine art degrees, you're eligible. Your commitment to the program is simple: All that we ask you do is specify KODAK PROFESSIONAL Papers and Film in your course outline.

To help you better understand our products, we will supply you with an Educator Kit that includes:

* Your choice of 10 rolls of our newest print film (color negative), KODAK PROFESSIONAL PORTRA 400UC Film OR 50 sheets of 11"x14" KODAK PROFESSIONAL POLYMAX Fine Art BW Paper
* Data guides for your students
* Product coupons for your students
* Technical publications
* Black-and-white paper sample (limited quantities available)

Here's how to get started:
Download the sign-up form
Mail the above form to:
Eastman Kodak Co.
343 State St.
Rochester, N. Y. 14650-0536

After we receive your form, your kit will be mailed to you within 3-4 weeks.


Some basic info from Fuji
http://www.fujifilm.com/support/tips_for_better_photos/film-digital/film.html

[BattyMcDoon]

I find that amazing, somewhat like starting out in math class using a slide rule or going to a beginning computer class with a mechanical geared analog computer because that's "how it all started", etc.

do photography classes really buy and use developing "hypo" chemicals and use dark rooms?

Yes, my school has a darkroom, developing tanks, chemicals [developer, fixer and so on] and all that fun stuff. As I said they prefer to start with the basics. I personally am not a fan of [silver] film because I prefer to use my computer in the process although there is something to seeing what you've taken develope right before your eyes. My school recycles and reuses the chemicals and nothing goes down the drain so were eco friendly. They have classes in Black and White photography and other processes dealing in the darkroom. It really depends on the person taking the class I was one of the few who REALLY didn't enjoy it but that's because I said I much prefer my computer as a tool in the process. :)

Edit: I just found the book for my first year of film photography. It's called "Black and White Photography A Basic Manual" Third Edition, Revised by Henry Horenstine. It's copyrighted 2005 so it's bound to have newer information in it. I never used it but looking through it, it looks like a pretty decent book. Not sure if it's College level or High School level [or if it even matters]. It gives alot of tips for beginners.

[princess.chell]

I find that amazing, somewhat like starting out in math class using a slide rule or going to a beginning computer class with a mechanical geared analog computer because that's "how it all started", etc.

do photography classes really buy and use developing "hypo" chemicals and use dark rooms?

Yeah, my school has two darkrooms. Ones for black and white and the other is for color. We use all the chemicals and stuff. It's kinda cool. I like seeing it devolp in front of my eyes. It's like 'magic' to me ;)

[pjacobi]

Why not teach the Daguerreotype process? Kids these days just don't get enough mercury fumes!

Seriously, in just a few more years, film photography will seem just as ancient as the Daguerreotype process.

Photography was taught with B&W film, not because of art-like qualities, but because it was cheap! In today's world, "cheap" can be accomplished with a digital camera and PC, which you probably already own.

It's time to overhaul the curriculum due to the change in technology. However, the fundamentals of photography remain unchanged.


-Paul

[princess.chell]

Hey. So I love black and white photos, but like color photos as well. And I don't want to double shoot every photo plus I'm not a huge fan of how my photos that I shoot in black and white mode come out. So I'm looking for a way to convert my color photos into black and white photos other than gradient or desaturate (or both) then contrast and curves. I've got Photoshop CS3 and can use it fairly well. I've tried looking up ways online, but the ones I've looked at don't give me results I like. Any help?


Sorry if there is already a thread for this...the search feature was not working for me...

[YesDear]

Katrin Eismann has a great online class on several different techniques to convert color to B&W on Scott Kelby's online training site. You might want to check that out. She shows using gradiant, color modes, channels, etc. and the different results you get.

[racreel]

As YesDear said, there are multiple ways to go to B&W. Here are 3 that I did in Paint Shop Pro X2. There are others beyond these.

Color saturation turned all the way down____________________Converted to grayscale______________________________B&W film effect, options set for more dramatic sky
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r316/racreel/Disigns/stuff/BW_saturation.jpghttp://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r316/racreel/Disigns/stuff/BW_grayscale.jpghttp://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r316/racreel/Disigns/stuff/BW_film_effect.jpg

[Gdad]

I use this method sometimes-

http://www.blackandwhitedigital.com/Convert/luminosity/gorman.html

[jann1033]

i love b&W . i like the results i get best when i think b&w while taking the photo in raw then converting it to grayscale in lightroom with the grayscale preset and tweak it with the grayscale color sliders and the tone curves there or sometimes i use alien skin exposure to refine it. there you can convert to b&W in lightroom or just convert there using the film looking presets then change the ink color of the highlights/shadows, work with a tone curve, grain etc. it's not a cheap program but if you use b&w a lot it may be worth it to you. i think they have a free demo but it might leave a watermark on the photo( can't remember). it also has color film presets like kodachrome, sepias , lomo, bleached tones, a bunch of stuff.
i just got a book that so far i like( chapter 1 in fact but the intro was great:lmao: actually i just kind of skipped ahead to the lightroom stuff first ) and the photos are wonderful. Black and White in photoshop cs4 and photoshop lightroom by Leslie Alsheimer and Bryan O'Neil Huges. i also like Advanced Digital Black and white photography by John Beardsworth. he has some good points about taking a photo that would then convert well, ie not having highlights around the edges that look like holes in the finished print.l

[boBQuincy]

I like the Russell Brown method (Russell is Adobe's creative director).

http://www.russellbrown.com/tips_tech.html
It is about halfway down the page, or see:

http://www.outbackphoto.com/workshop/photoshop_corner/essay_21/essay.html

[princess.chell]

Thanks everyone!
I've looked into and tried all of the sites ya'll suggested. I'm still experimenting to see which I like the best. Thanks so much!

[BeenHereB4]

Do any of you have a decent resource (book, website) for black and white portrait photography? Including how best to convert with PS, etc would be awesome. Very much appreciated!! :goodvibes

[gwishmael]

Do you have a tax id number? If not, your options are limited to non-prolabs. This will also limit the quality that you can get. The better labs use true B&W paper and if they are really good they will offer fiber base paper aswell. As for the digital conversions. the are a lot of tutorials online that can step you thought the many differant ways of doing this. You should try several differant methods and see which one works better for your taste and style.
I know this didn't give you the answers you are looking for but it should give you some direction.

[BeenHereB4]

Do you have a tax id number? If not, your options are limited to non-prolabs. This will also limit the quality that you can get. The better labs use true B&W paper and if they are really good they will offer fiber base paper aswell. As for the digital conversions. the are a lot of tutorials online that can step you thought the many differant ways of doing this. You should try several differant methods and see which one works better for your taste and style.
I know this didn't give you the answers you are looking for but it should give you some direction.

Thank you. This is good to know about the printing.

I do not have a tax id and am very much an amateur. I have some ideas in my head for a few photos I want to take for my husband. Now I just have to learn how to actually execute those ideas!! :lmao:

[gwishmael]

Can you elaborate on these ideas? Or is there some examples somewhere that will show what you are wanting to do?

[MICKEY88]

as far as printing goes, you can get great quality from MPIX, they are actually a division of Miller Labs which is one of the best PRO labs in the USA. I use Corels PAint SHop Photo PRo, it includes some actions to make b&W conversion easy, and does a nice job, I also use Topaz LAbs plugins which do a great job on conversion

[BeenHereB4]

Thanks Mickey. I'll do some more research.

I want kind of that grainy, grungy black and white photo look. We'll see if I can actually accomplish it in time. :goodvibes

[GrillMouster]

There are a million ways to get from point A to point B in Photoshop. Personally, I stay away from the "desaturate" method of converting a color image to black & white. Try the gradient map method (just google "gradient map black and white for a bunch of tutorials). I prefer B&W images with more contrast. Avoid muddy midtones and skintones. You can add grain in PS, or make it easier on yourself an shoot the original image with a really high ISO; the color noise will look like grain after you convert to B&W.

[photo_chick]

I have no business tax ID number and I print at pro labs all the time.

There are many different ways to convert to black and white and they all have advantages and disadvantages. I tend to desaturate, but I also work the curves and levels to get the blacks, whites and midtones I want. And I tend to add some texture.

As much as I hate ready made actions, the pioneer woman (http://www.thepioneerwoman.com)has some nice b&w actions.

[BeenHereB4]

Thank you! I do plan to use a high ISO for the noise factor but that's about all I have planned. I have plenty of time to learn all this "stuff". I do appreciate the input.

[MarkBarbieri]

Do you have a tax id number? If not, your options are limited to non-prolabs. This will also limit the quality that you can get. The better labs use true B&W paper and if they are really good they will offer fiber base paper aswell. As for the digital conversions. the are a lot of tutorials online that can step you thought the many differant ways of doing this. You should try several differant methods and see which one works better for your taste and style.
I know this didn't give you the answers you are looking for but it should give you some direction.

I'm missing something. I've never seen a lab turn away business because someone lacked a tax ID. I get asked for one from time to time and when I tell them that I don't have one, the only difference is that they charge me sales tax.

I've heard that this book (http://www.amazon.com/Black-White-Photoshop-Lightroom-monochromatic/dp/0240521595/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1288738769&sr=8-1) is good, but I haven't personally read it. I've also heard really good things about NIK Silver Efex Pro (http://www.niksoftware.com/silverefexpro/usa/entry.php), but again, that's hearsay.

Whatever method you use, make sure that it allows you to make "color" adjustments after you convert to black and white. Some people just do a straight conversion to grayscale and then lose a lot of flexibility. Take the example of a photo that includes clouds in a nice blue sky. If you technique converts it to B&W but preserves the color information, you can darken the parts of the photo that were blue and make the clouds stand out more.

[gwishmael]

[QUOTE=MarkBarbieri;38810717]I'm missing something. I've never seen a lab turn away business because someone lacked a tax ID. I get asked for one from time to time and when I tell them that I don't have one, the only difference is that they charge me sales tax.

Labs like Millers, H&H, Whitehouse Custom Color, and Portrait City all require tax numbers before they will do business with someone. Some labs have two parts. Millers has MPIX for consumers. There are some good local labs out there that cater to both.

[photo_chick]

Labs like Millers, H&H, Whitehouse Custom Color, and Portrait City all require tax numbers before they will do business with someone. Some labs have two parts. Millers has MPIX for consumers. There are some good local labs out there that cater to both.

I've used WHCC and Millers with no tax ID. But you know, after all the hoops to use WHCC I was seriously disappointed in the quality. Though really, the whole discussion on labs is not at all pertinent to the OP's first post, now that I've gone back and re-read it.


Back to the topic at hand... I totally agree with not discarding color information.

Ansel Adams actually wrote a great series of books about black and white photography. It deals with film, but the ideas on what makes a good finished black and white print are the same for digital, as are the basic principles of photography.

[BeenHereB4]

Thanks so much. I will look into all these resources and play around with conversion a TON before I actually try to take my photos.

As for labs, I have used MPix and really liked the quality.

[AlbertZeroK]

I use lightroom, it's non-destructive, so I can play with multiple version of the same image and try different adjustments quickly. It's pretty easy to get what I want in lightroom, although, their is a certain amount of fun when you go back to using real film. I've had fun recently with a roll of Ilford 3200.

[SrisonS]

I'd like to reiterate Mark's point about using "color" adjustments when working with b&w pictures. I've really been getting into b&w conversions lately with some of my Disney pictures. It's amazing how much change a picture undergoes when you adjust the "colors". Adsjuting WB also plays a role when it comes to that processing.

Just play around. You'll eventually find a look you like.

[pgowder]

Check out Nik Silver Effects Pro! Best b&w conversion process.

[boBQuincy]

Thank you! I do plan to use a high ISO for the noise factor but that's about all I have planned. I have plenty of time to learn all this "stuff". I do appreciate the input.

It is easy to add grain in post-processing but a lot more difficult to take it out. Shooting at the lowest ISO possible is usually the best way to go, then add grain to suit.

Russell Brown (of Adobe) has some interesting and versatile methods for converting color to B&W. Ansel Adams series (The Camera, The Negative, The Print) may be a great help for those wishing to go with B&W. "The Print" also goes into great detail about how to fit the full range of a negative onto a piece of printing paper, very good stuff even if you send your files out to be printed.

[BeenHereB4]

I had NO Idea you could add "noise" after. Thanks for the info. As usual, I have lots of info to take in. I did purchase one of the books suggested and will check out Silver Effects too.

Thanks so much for the advice! :thumbsup2