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wdwguide
09-01-2002, 10:28 AM
Several people are reporting that there was brake malfunction on Disneyland's Space Mountain that caused one train to run into the next, injuring four guests who had to be treated at the hospital. The ride will reportedly remain closed through the weekend and possibly a few days beyond.

Jeff in BigD
09-02-2002, 03:38 AM
Yikes! Any word on the severity of the injuries? Regardless, no doubt they'll get quite a settlement out of the deal...hopefully.

KNWVIKING
09-02-2002, 12:37 PM
" no doubt they'll get quite a settlement out of the deal...hopefully."

I hope you never complain about the cost of insurance or attraction that close because of the potential for liability concerns.

Jeff in BigD
09-02-2002, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by KNWVIKING
I hope you never complain about the cost of insurance or attraction that close because of the potential for liability concerns.
My gripes about insurance are that the huge majority of them are corrupt & rarely pay off when it matters without a a knock-down, drag-out fight in court. I feel that insurance is one of the biggest rackets going on today. Do you think the medical bills should be paid by the guest? :confused:

And yes, I think if there's any cause for alarm, the ride should be shut down to make sure it's safe. To suggest otherwise is purely assenine.

Bob O
09-02-2002, 05:26 PM
I would agree with the Vking and his cause for concern over lawyers run amok in society and trying to sue enjoyment out of this world!!! I dont hope for any large settlement unless it is proven that disney knew there was a problem and then intentionaly took no actions at all to fix it. With how many millions upon millions of people who have ridden the ride their is little concern IMHO that the ride is unsafe. Accidents can happen and the ride should be fixed and medical bills paid, but nothing more unless intentional wrongdoing was shown upon the part of disney. Of course when people hope for huge settlements i hope they arent upset when their are no rides anymore at any park in fear of the trial lawyers trying to sue every company out of business!!!

Jeff in BigD
09-03-2002, 04:24 AM
Originally posted by Bob O
I would agree with the Vking and his cause for concern over lawyers run amok in society and trying to sue enjoyment out of this world!!! I dont hope for any large settlement unless it is proven that disney knew there was a problem and then intentionaly took no actions at all to fix it. With how many millions upon millions of people who have ridden the ride their is little concern IMHO that the ride is unsafe. Accidents can happen and the ride should be fixed and medical bills paid, but nothing more unless intentional wrongdoing was shown upon the part of disney. Of course when people hope for huge settlements i hope they arent upset when their are no rides anymore at any park in fear of the trial lawyers trying to sue every company out of business!!!
I'm not suggesting that they should be given money of it was their fault, but it sounds like it was DL's fault. If Disney knew about it ahead of time, that's were the big settlement should come in. The fact that DL's maintenance has been a little suspect in the past few years won't help their cause.

I do agree that there are too many bogus lawsuits out there (hot coffee lady, etc) & agree with tort reform. However if an insurance company gets a taste of their own medicine, I'll not be losing any sleep.

HockeyDadof2
09-03-2002, 08:44 AM
Do you own your home? Have you renewed your homeowners insurance recently? We in Texas are taking a royal screwing on our homeowners insurance. Mine went up 130%, that's with no claims I might add. When I tried to "shop around" I found that is the norm and that a number of companies aren't writing new policies in TX anymore.

mattjs
09-03-2002, 12:09 PM
Any confirmation on this? Haven't seen a thing about it anywhere. Any info anyone, one way or the other?

Rneighh
09-03-2002, 12:38 PM
As a lawyer's wife and his paralegal it takes a bogus client with a bogus claim to make a bogus lawsuit. Yes, a good attorney would not take such bogus claims -- but remember the client had to come into his office looking to "be set for life"!!!!

Renee

YoHo
09-03-2002, 01:09 PM
Mrs. YoHo is currently in a Torts class, (Civil law) They WILL Get money and it isn't the Lawyers fault, its the system's fault. You wouldn't believe what some of the precidents are. Disney will end up paying big big money.

Bob O
09-03-2002, 01:38 PM
Their are more than enough ambulance chasing lawyers who will take any case, no matter how bogus as they know for alot of companies its cheaper to give out something than take a case to court.
If this was a accident and not a known problem than the 4 injured parties are only deserving of hospital bills and throw in a theme park pass for pr!!
i heard of the story on the rec.arts disney site where there is a small article but i found nothing on a search of the LA times.
And you arent screwing the insurnace companies, you are screwing everybody who pays any insurance premium and that type of thought process is what lawyers prey on and causes the big jury awards.

Rneighh
09-03-2002, 02:27 PM
We do a lot of personal injury work and follow jury awards. You are NOT see huge awards here in the mid-west. The conservative heartland is not awarding frivilous suits.

Yes the market is flooded with too many attorneys. Yes the lesser quality attorneys are more willing to take bogus claims. But our general population thinks that a minor auto accident is going to set them for life. Many insurance companies are much less likely to settle claims that they believe are not legitimate.

I would love to know the legal background of those of your making some of these claims.

Renee

YoHo
09-03-2002, 02:38 PM
Typically, nationwide,
People who due for minor bills, Repair of a car, low cost hospital bills get significantly more then they need whereas the people that actually diserve big money. the people who have enormous hospital bills and so forth get significantly less then they need.
The entire system is stupid.

doubletrouble_vb
09-03-2002, 04:03 PM
Insurance companies don't pay for the claims...big or small...the POLICYHOLDER....yes...you the little guys rooting for big payoffs....are the ones who pay the claims.

What an insurance company does is invest the premiums the little guys pay and then keep the profits. Virtually no insurance companies actually profit from the premiums themselves.

So...are you sure you want to root for a big payoff??? It just means Disney (and every other theme park with a similar ride) will pay much higher premiums...and ultimately who gets stuck with the bill?

We do...not the corporations.

These people deserve their medical bills & any economic loss they may suffer. But that doesn't amount to a big payoff. The only time big payoffs should come into play is with neglience...but naturally that isn't always the case.

Jeff in BigD
09-03-2002, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by HockeyDadof2
Do you own your home? Have you renewed your homeowners insurance recently? We in Texas are taking a royal screwing on our homeowners insurance. Mine went up 130%, that's with no claims I might add. When I tried to "shop around" I found that is the norm and that a number of companies aren't writing new policies in TX anymore.
My folks are homeowners & I'm not sure what their status on this is, but it's something that thankfully a few politicians are looking to put an end to increasing rates.

1HourAway
09-04-2002, 12:43 AM
Well, I was in MK Sunday night (9/02) and rode SM. It wasn't closed - and their was only a 20 minute wait!!:)

jlima
09-04-2002, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by mattjs
Any confirmation on this? Haven't seen a thing about it anywhere. Any info anyone, one way or the other?

I've been surfing various media websites including the Orange County Register and LA-area TV and I haven't found any mention of a Space Mountain accident. I even went into Yahoo and used Space Mountain as a keyword and found nothing; I've also look at the Orlando Sentinel website & haven't found anything there.

If there was an accident it's been kept quiet.

:Pinkbounc

EUROPA
09-04-2002, 12:48 AM
I think this was started on the newsgroups....here is the first post about it on RADP



Regarding accident at Space Mountain Disneyland From:

http://www.themeparkinsider.com

8/29/2002 - Submitted by Name Withheld on 8/31/2002

During a routine Cascade Ride Stop one rocket (#8) blew through the
brake zones at the final sections of the ride. Another rocket had been
brought to a stop just past the "Re-entry Tunnel" before the station,
and the out of control rocket slammed into the back of the stopped
rocket. Basically a rocket rear-ended another rocket just before the
station. Four Guests were taken to the hospital, and later released.
The incident happened on Thursday afternoon, and the attraction has
been closed ever since. The word we are getting from our managers is
that Space will likely remain closed for the entire weekend, and
possibly for the rest of next week as well. We are supposed to tell
Guests that it is closed for an "unscheduled refurbishment", which
isn't exactly untrue since they are now working intensely on the
attraction to try and figure out what could have gone so horribly
wrong to allow a rocket to careen through brake zones and slam into
the back of another rocket.

Muffy
09-04-2002, 05:10 AM
This rumored space mt. accident was at DL not WDW. HTH

Panthius
09-04-2002, 08:14 AM
All this talk of lawyers and settlements and nobody is mentioning why they will get more money than just their hospital bills paid for (and possibly a park hopper). They lost out on maybe a half day of the park they paid for to get in, so at the very least Disney is responsible for the hospital bills and a one day park hopper. Also, the guests were riding Disney's attraction for fun and enjoyment, but they ended up in the hospital due to a fault in Disney's attraction. This sounds like some suffering here, although I am not sure how much money they will get. If anybody who has been posting about these people not deserving more than just a park ticket and hospital bills, if you were in the same situation, would you not want more than that considering Disney is supposed to equal happiness, not hospital visits?

Panthius

Peter Pirate
09-04-2002, 08:39 AM
Everyone knows that I'm a big Disney defender, but if these people were hurt in the manner described, which would obviously be Disney negligence, then they are entitled to compensation and I wouldn't consider medical bills and a hopper to be sufficient...:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

Rneighh
09-04-2002, 10:28 AM
I must have missed something --- how was Disney negligent. Where there reports of the brakes not working? Had they not completed scheduled maintenance checks.

For negligence you must have had prior knowledge or should have had prior knowledge (not performing maintenance which would have shown the problem). If this was a sudden failure with no prior knowledge I don't see the negligence.

I have not read a complete new article on this so I may have missed the negligence on the part of Disney.

Renee

Panthius
09-04-2002, 10:55 AM
With regards to the negligence argument, if these people involved in this accident were seriously injured or worse, died, would Disney only have to pay for their hospital bills and/or funerals? I don't think that negligence is the only issue here, and if it were, I would believe that only the hospital bills and a refund of their daily admission were in order, but we have the element of human emotions involved here which will result in a settlement for more than just hospital bills.

Pan

Peter Pirate
09-04-2002, 11:36 AM
Renee, if what happened (as we know it) happend (one car not breaking properly and running into another) is this not negligence? Is it not incumbant upon Disney to make sure that the guest is always safe? That their fail safe system is just that? In this case, for whatever reason, it appears that Disney's fail safe system broke down...Negligence.

I'm not big on huge damages but certainly a nice settlement would be in order to compensate not only for injuries, but lost time & pain & suffering..
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

KNWVIKING
09-04-2002, 12:51 PM
I think I started this great legal debate when I comented about BigD's first statement. The issue is not about the details of the accident, it was about the word "...hopefully". I hope that these injured people get what they truely,even legally deserve and don't take the attitude of "hot damn,lucky me got hurt at Disney,I'm set for life now". And that attitude,I might add, is fueled by contingency lawyers.

YoHo
09-04-2002, 12:58 PM
Look, negligence isn't cut and dry as you would want to believe. Maybe Scoop will come by and edubicate us, but the law MAY say that it was reseaonable for Disney to anticipate the failure regardless of whether the ride past maintainence checks. Its the nature of Civil law.

Bob O
09-04-2002, 01:36 PM
jeffinBigD the last thing we need is politicians getting involved in insurance premuims. The market should set the rate with no interference from big brother government or politicians getting involved under the ruse they are out for the little guy!!
Peter Pirate What would you consider a nice sttlement???? Millions,hundreds of thousands/thousands?? Accidents will happen and nothing in life is perfect of fail proof. Other than getting hospital bills paid and throw in a park hopper they deserve no more unless it is proven that disney was aware of a problem and didnt fix it. And since millions have ridden this ride without any type of problems i dont think it was caused by negligence. And of course the ambulance chasing lawyers will tell their clients they have struck it rich by being hurt in disney property

Rneighh
09-04-2002, 01:51 PM
Speaking as a paralegal.............

Disney may well offer some type of a settlement to resolve the issue. However, this thread has gone on to a legal debate. NO just because the accident happened does not make Disney negligent. What constitutes negligence is defined by statute and each of those elements must be met to prove negligence.

Renee

Panthius
09-04-2002, 01:55 PM
I believe these people should get more than their hospital bills and a park hopper thrown in. There is some level of suffering involved here. The people were riding a ride that they felt "safe" on and thousands, if not millions have ridden without so much as a bruise occuring as a result. These people were sent to the hospital due to a malfunction of a Disney (still supposed to equal happiness) attraction which sent them to the hospital quite possibly on their vacation. For that, they deserve more. How much more, I don't know, but they deserve more in my opinion. I do not think they deserve an absurd amount of money, depending on Disney's negligence of course, but they should get more for their suffering as a result of this happening.

Panthius

Peter Pirate
09-04-2002, 02:14 PM
I agree Panthius, as for how much? well gee, I don't know and it isn't up to me. Certainly I'm against the frivilous but remember MCDonalds payed millions over the 'hot coffee' incident & I see Disney as far more at fault for this than Mickey D's was for hot coffee...
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

Bob O
09-04-2002, 02:20 PM
So what is an absurd amount and what isnt an absurd amount???
And are accidents outlawed now, does machinery work perfect everytime??? If my car doesnt start should i now sue the car manufacturer??? If my computer runs slow should i sue somebody because i also suffered, when will this madness end and will any company not be bankrupt before sanity is restored??
The trial lawyers have apparnetly brainwashed a sizable portion of the public to believe that any accident, no matter how minor must be rewarded with a hefty pay check, and then people wonder why everything is so expensive!!!

Peter Pirate
09-04-2002, 02:28 PM
Don't be ridiculous Bob. If you car doesn't start nobody got hurt. If your car's steering wheel freezes up while in motion and an accident occurs, yes I think the car co. should be sued.

You're reaching because of your disgust with the litigation world and perhaps justice in general & I don't necessarily disagree, but when people are put in danger or hurt under circumstances where they had certain assurances that these things WON'T happen, then someone needs to be responsible.

I don't belive in slip and fall accidents & I don't believe in holding other peope responsible for yor idiocy but I do believe in the responsible parties to accidents paying reasonable restitution.

As for how much...I won't play th game, there is no point.
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

Bob O
09-04-2002, 03:02 PM
Peter Pirate what if my car doesnt start in winter and its below zero which happens often in Wisc and i get severe frostbite or freeze to death, shouldnt the manufacturer be held responsbile under your logic?? Thats not supposed to happen is it?? I would probably have suffered far worse than those hurt on SM?? And then you believe they are deserved compensation but wont let us know how much you believe they should get, if you want them to get money shouldnt you also let us know how much?? And nobdy can slip and fall accidently?? Are you telling us it never happens??

Golter
09-04-2002, 04:05 PM
I must defend insurance companies.. As a poster stated before we do not expect to make a profit on premiums. Our business overhead is about 30% (Salaries, Benefits, and Insurance, etc.) the other 70% is paid out as claims. We actually expect to pay out more than that usually 1 - 3 % in a good year. Last year as an industry in Texas it was about 30%. And on the homeowners insurance we (Insurance companies in Texas) are paying out $2 for every $1 we take in . Our loss ratios are 200%. Insurance rates are just a product of society. Lawsuit abuse, Fraud, rising medical cost, rising repair cost, the economy, unbalanced budget, Bush in White House, all lead to higher premiums. You cannot legislate rates. It doesn't work. You have to contol the claims abuse. Rates have gone up over a 100% in Texas in the past 12 months and they will continue to rise if the claims are not reduced. Insurance is not a maintence policy or a warranty.

Jeff in BigD
09-04-2002, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Bob O
jeffinBigD the last thing we need is politicians getting involved in insurance premuims. The market should set the rate with no interference from big brother government or politicians getting involved under the ruse they are out for the little guy!!
Actually they have in a way. You're required, by law, to have car insurance. The minute that the law demands a service, there needs to be a checks & balance system. I think it's silly that insurance companies fight tooth & nail not to give the money they've insured the people for, in case their house gets blown away, & the house is obliterated by a twister. I'm sorry if this seems a little harsh, but I trust insurance companies about as much as I do the IRS or the mob.

Rneighh
09-04-2002, 06:00 PM
Actually the McDonalds hot coffee was over turned on appeal but that is never reported so the public get the wrong impression.

Renee

Rneighh
09-04-2002, 06:10 PM
I state this once again --- a company is negligent IF they had knowledge or should have had knowledge that their is a problem. If you car steering column suddenly goes haywire -- the manufacuter is not negligent unless they had knowledge.

The laws are designed to stop the get rich con artist. However, this does not stop some from filing suit and rarely do you see courts hold plaintiffs liable for friviolous lawsuits. The cases are dismissed and each party bears their own costs. --- Hence the insurance company pays to defend on a case which should have not been filed by both the con artist and attorney who took the case. We would never take such a PI case as it is a waste of time and our time would be better spent on cases with merit.

Renee

Bob O
09-04-2002, 09:58 PM
JeffinBigD-Not every state are you required to have car ins.In my state you arent required to have auto insurance unless you were involved in a accident and were unable to pay any damages that were your fault. (The requirment mandating car insurance is also wrong and has been shown just to increase costs for the honest driver and have no effect on the dishonest as they will drive if they have insurance or not or have a license to drive or not).
Insurance comnpanies have to look over claims closely as their are numerous dishonest people who will overstate a claim and the value of their holdings in a attempt to make money and then juries who will buy the lawyers idea that insurance companies are rich and can afford it and juries stupid enough not to realize they are screwing everybody who pays a premium by their outrageuos awards based on sympathy and not any actual loses.

EUROPA
09-04-2002, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by Rneighh
I state this once again --- a company is negligent IF they had knowledge or should have had knowledge that their is a problem. If you car steering column suddenly goes haywire -- the manufacuter is not negligent unless they had knowledge.


...so lets say a part may fail 1% of the time and the company knows this, are they responsible for any damage from that failing part may cause?

Rneighh
09-05-2002, 11:46 AM
Europa --- that would be for a jury to decide.

Renee

EUROPA
09-05-2002, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by Rneighh
Europa --- that would be for a jury to decide.

Renee

A jury is made up of people (well most of them) and your a person...so what do you think? Should companies be responsible for every mechanical failure that happens? Just give me your gut feeling here. Let say that if the coaster problem did happen and it was due to a part failing (such as this 1% problem that I brought up) would you say the company that installed the part or produced the part is responsible??

HockeyDadof2
09-05-2002, 12:39 PM
Absolutely possitively no doubt that assuming there are suits brought, and I have no doubt that at least a couple of them will sue, there won't be a trial or a jury. Disney attorneys will settle this out of court and with the terms probably secret.

Rneighh
09-05-2002, 03:47 PM
Europa -- the court system is not as cut and dry as you seem to want to make it. A jury would weigh all kinds of issues in a personal injury claim. I work in a world of facts and information and we just don't have enough facts or information on this SM injury to come to any conclusions. I am not going to make any assumptions on this without a lot more information.

You hypothetical situation regarding a 1% failure on a part is way to vague for me to make any conclusions.

Renee

EUROPA
09-05-2002, 03:56 PM
I'll withdraw my vague question if you withdraw this vague guilt statement...


I state this once again --- a company is negligent IF they had knowledge or should have had knowledge that their is a problem

KMovies
09-05-2002, 08:06 PM
Although every ride at Disney (and most every park in America) is safe, and getting on a plane is safe, and skiing down a slope in Vail is safe - don't you always take some risk? Getting into a car is safe, but there is also a risk associated with it. Yes, the ride had a brakedown and some people went to the hospital. It is really bad for them; however, if we do have laws in this world to overcompensate them - we won't have life as we know it. We could never build the world's tallest and fastest roller coasters because, at some point, some day, something will go wrong, nothing is perfect. Yes - can they get money from Disney? Yes. Will they - Yes. Will it be more than they probably are entitled to - Yes. Can we blame them - No. It's just the way life works now. And the guy who broke his leg skiing in Vail is probably thinking how he can say the ski resort was at fault. Just remember - when you pay $46 or $47 at Disney next year it is for a new attraction, higher electric bills, and for higher insurance premiums.

Yes, it can be taken to extremes. The car did not start; therefore, you lost a day's wages. You were damaged - now sue.

Peter Pirate
09-05-2002, 10:07 PM
Kmovies, who wants to "overcompensate them?" The only real arguement is should there be any compensation above & beyond medical expenses. Bob & I will never agree, even though I agree with him wholeheartedly that things are WAY OUT OF CONTROL in this arena.

I still happen to believe you have a right to expect a safe environment from Disney and a coaster ramming another doesn't just happen "because". As in airplane accidents, victims families settle huge suits when neglignence is found, or going to be found (oh, and in deference to Renee's posts, certainly negligence has to be found and certanly we do not have all the facts here on the DIS for this case - It's al speculation).
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

Bob O
09-05-2002, 10:19 PM
When you deal with machinery accidents can and do happen!! No piece of machinery can be foolsafe and work in a perfect manner every time. Accidents will happen and parts will fail. We dont know enough about the SM incident to know if it was mechanical or possible human error. But nothing has been shown that SM isnt a safe ride or that disney doesnt provide a safe enviroment be it from how the rides operate or that the grounds are kept safe. A ride that gives millions of people safe rides has shown itself to be run in a safe manner and who believes that any piece of machinery no matter how well maintened wont at one time or another have a part fail that can result in some type of accident. Or is the current expectation that a piece of machinery is perfect and should never fail or break down??
This acident and others have happened at WDW and DL but when you look at the amount of rides given per day their is nothing shown that would make anybody think they arent safe places to visit or to enjoy the attractions.

Peter Pirate
09-05-2002, 10:28 PM
I pretty much agree Bob, except for your last statement...
...their is nothing shown that would make anybody think they aren't safe places to vist or to enjoy the attractions.
This accident makes me a little more leery than I was last week...Although I agree that we don't know enough yet...
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

Bob O
09-06-2002, 02:27 PM
I wouldnt be afraid to ride SM at all!!! A series of mishaps would be worrisome, but a single accident wouldnt bother me.

C.Ann
09-06-2002, 03:12 PM
Just as an aside, the fact that these people were "released" from the hospital the same day does not mean that they got a scrape on the knee or a little bump on the head and that's all..

Last year my DD's mother-in-law was in an automobile accident and "released" the same day.. She had a broken nose, stitches in her head, 4 broken ribs, a bruised heart, and two knees the size of basketballs..

Seems to me it would be a little difficult to continue on with a wonderful vacation if you had even ONE of the conditions listed above..