How much do you rent your points for

[Eck45]

I am thinking of renting our our remaining points for 2001 since we are having a baby and will probably not make it back home in time to use them.

How much should I rent them for? I know $10 seems to be the going rate, but that seems low to me.

What price have you rented points at before?

Is there a way to figure out how much the points are really worth when renting?

[SAKPEG99OKW]

Eck, DW and I are in the same boat. First baby due in December. I just rented our
December reservation to another member for 10.00 a point. He was a very nice man from
Canada. He ran out of points and did not want to borrow from next year. The transaction
went smoothly, no problems. Just remember we did not join DVC to make money, we joined
to treat ourselves and our families to a little magic every year.

Just decide what you want to do and go into it with an honest attitude and I think that you will
be supprised.

Scott and Peg

[nuthut]

I rent my points for $12.50 each. Don't give away your vacation time at $10 each just because you will not be able to use the time. Just remember that you did not join DVC to finance other's vacations and you are not making money at $12.50 either.

[Bigcat]

Damn straight, nuthut! I don't know why people insist on giving away their money. The rental per point should be substantially higher than $10. We should be able to charge almost up to what Disney charges for cash reservations. Simple economics. People saw what Disney was giving for Magical Beginnings and thought that was what a point was worth. If you don't know by now, Disney makes a good profit on those MB points sold back so the value of the points is much higher.

STOP GIVING THESE RESERVATIONS AWAY FOR CHEAP!!!

[Richyams]

I think $10 more than covers the cost. I like that there are enough occaisonal renters out there charging $10 to make it difficult for profiteers to get more.

It is the profiteer, the person using his points as a business, the person who is breaking the spirit of the contract, that is hurting all owners.

They hurt all owners by only renting only weekdays, this makes the overall occupancy rate of the resort lower which increases our costs. It also makes it more likely that Disney could even out the differential from weekdays to weekends.

I am glad that most people are living by the spirit of the contract they signed and are only occaisonal renters. I think $10 is perfect.

[Bigcat]

richyams,
Where do you get off calling me a "profiteer"? Actually, I am rather pleased that you disagree with me since you are on the minority side in all these discussions.

Why do I have to rent my points to "cover the cost"? This is America, you are allowed to make a profit. And I don't care if Disney evens out the weekend and weekday points. The way it is now, I won't go on a weekend.

Finally, I am an occasional renter myself, and do honor the LETTER of the contract. I have never seen one with a spirit. Like everybody who is a member, I signed a lengthy contract with rules and regulations and I abide by them!

[ckr]

that Rich is in the minority......

[CarolMN]

QUOTE from Richyams post:

"It is the profiteer, the person using his points as a business, the person who is breaking the spirit of the contract, that is hurting all owners. "


Wondering how this /why this was interpreted as calling a specific individual a profiteer?

To paraphrase another:

"Methinks you protest too much"

P.S. I see nothing wrong with renting points for whatever the market will bear, provided all of the DVC rules are followed by both the renter and the person who owns the points.

[shelbyjosh]

We rented 11 points last May for $8 each. Yes, it seems cheap..but considering we just joined and found out that there were 11 points that would expire May 31st. So, we offed them for that price. Better than losing them. Now we would not sell our points at all. We barely have enough as it is, let alone sell to someone else!! :)

[Bigcat]

Please don't take me wrong. I think everybody should rent their points for whatever they want. I also think that we should get out of the mindset that points are worth $10. It has been demonstrated time and again that they are worth more.

Shelbyjosh...I think you did great to get $8 given that you were going to lose them.

My final say in the matter is that I will rent my points, if I rent any, at whatever I can get!

[Eck45]

I didn't realize that I sparked such a debate. Cool. :D

Just so everyone knows, I am not trying to profit from this little venture. I would not even be renting the points if it weren't for the situation of having a baby and doing what works best for my family.

As far as $10 or more? My personal opinion is that based on the cash cost of a room, $10 seems low. Whether that should be what is charged, who knows.

I think it should be left to each indivudual owner and they should charge what they feel is correct for them and their situation.

Have a great day.... GO TWINS !!!

[ronw]

to a point. This is America and I do believe you can rent/sell your interest for any price you want (or at least try to). A true test of ownership is "can I sell it?". That being said, I also am glad that most owners do perceive a "spirit" of DVC - that it is for vacations not business opportunities. Would I rent my points in the totally unlikely event I had some that I or my family couldn't use? Absolutely! My preference would be to a fellow member needing more points to complete a reservation. The market is what sets the price - and right now the market for points is set by what most people perceive as "covering their cost". I can see this value rising as more points are sold at the higher prices.

[ILuvDVC]

After figuring all the cost of DVC to me, I figured my points cost me about $5.00 a point (paid cash for the ownership, divided the cost of individual points over the number of years of ownership, then added in the yearly fee per point). That will go up when the dues go up. I bought in 1994.

Anyhow....if you can get more than $10, more power to you :-). Points are points, supply and demand will govern the price. I've rented them out as cheap as $5.00 a point, to friends. I've also charged by the night, giving a discount on the room, and I think the per point price then came to $11.00 a point. All depends on what others are willing to pay.

But....I don't know how others feel...but I do not like renting out points....I feel that is my time, and while someone is using my points, I feel like I should be there! I haven't rented out points for a couple years now :-).

[LIDisneyFan]

I've never rented points, but have stayed cash at BW end of August and paid $450 (including tax) for a 1 BR preferred.

The same wee using pts. is 254. That comes to about $12.40/pt.

I don't think it matters how much I paid for my points, but if I renting them occasionally, that somewhere a little under the $12.40 is a fair price.

[dtheboys]

Hi, I don't rent out my points to the public, but I do rent points to family!
My family is unable to afford DVC, and stay at the nicer resorts.Therfore I make resv. w/ my DVC points at OKW, etc. I charge them $10.00 a point. I would get them a room for free, but they won't go for that.
That is why I love DVC! The plan is so flexible and nice. I can have a great vacation for myself and family.
Thanks for listening!;)

[jjohns]

This may not be quite the right spot for this question, but never mind!

I am a very new DVC member and have seen much mention of renting points - don't have any immediate plans to do it myself, but it may happen in the future, who can tell.

I'm just wondering just HOW does one go about renting the points out (or, for that matter, renting some additional points to cover a reservation)? I understand posting that points are available, but once someone wants/needs them, just how do you move them over?

TIA, Jeff

[Eck45]

As far as I know. I will make the reservation for the person, in there name, for what they want. Payment will probably be half up front and the rest later or something like that. I think that is between two parties on what works best for everyone.

Hopefully, someone with more experience will chime in to help answer as well.

Have a great day.

[Caskbill]

Rich is definitely NOT in the minority. I don't think any of us care when someone wants to rent some points they can't use. In fact, renting POINTS is actually most fair to everyone. A person can then spend those points just like any other member. Get whatever kind of room they want, any season they want, any day they want, by buying the appropriate amount of points.

On the other hand, there are some who appear to be in DVC as a business, to make a profit. And don't kid yourself, this comes at our expense.

Just check this out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1234499577

This is not an ad to sell POINTS. It's an ad for a vacation. The restrictions on the vacation: OKW only, Studio only, Weekdays only, NO Holiday periods, are there to minimize the point usage to the seller. There's no hint that you can get a 1-BR or stay weekends on points.

By eliminating holidays, the 'seller' has minimized his exposure to between 8 and 11 points per night, or 40 to 55 points for the 5 nights.

It's obvious this 'seller' is trying to maximize a profit by selling the lowest 'point cost' vacation he can.

To those who want to sell POINTS, that's great. Do so and get whatever you can. Then the buyer can use those points just like anyone else. Some of those buyers will choose 1 or 2 bedroom units, some will choose weekend days, some may choose holiday periods. They are spending points just like any other member and are not simply trying to grab the lowest point vacation package out there.


Caskbill

[Richyams]

The people renting points as a business do us all lots of harm. By renting only weekdays, they are artificially changing the usage patterns. I have gone over this so many times....it just seems so funny that it is the same people that get bruised every time I point out the obvious truth.

[Dean]

Rich, yes it does seem to be the same ones (myself included) posting on this subject. Since it's been a while, maybe even a full 6-8 weeks since we discussed it, I'll add my 2¢ worth again.

Those that would like to place the "commercial" use rules at anything more than renting to family or anything that makes a "profit" or anything over dues; are (to borrow a word from my teenage daughter) "delusioned". It is wishful thinking on their part and certainly in denial of the full view and obvious intent of the legal documentation. It may or may not be harmful to the general membership, but that is irrelevant as it is part of the rules we all bought into when we paid the big bucks for DVC. I would venture to say that only in a dramatic extreme would it have any effect on the general membership much less be truly harmful to any of us. Obviously if one takes a room to rent, that leaves one less room for another member and may leave one person on the outside looking in. This is true when I use my points renting or not. It's also true when I only use my points for Sun-Fri, if I get a GV for only 6-8 people (or a 2 BR for 3-4) or if I cancel at 31-60 days out and I'm sure many other examples of practices that are common place and might happen to be detrimental to another member.

I've rented out a few times over the past 3-4 years and certainly don't consider it for profit especially since the amount I've made over my dues is less than I could have made in working an extra weekend or two during the entire time in question. I've certianly spent more time, effort and energy than I would have if I were to work an extra few sessions. I find it enjoyable to communicate with so many interesting people while discussing DVC and Disney in General. I consider those I've rented to my friends and I'm fairly certain that at least most of them feel the same way about myself.

Also, the method a person choses to rent out their points is their personal choice. As long as it is within the rules of DVC, I don't see how it would make any difference the method used, at least from a rules compliance standpoint. And I would consider the final rental price irrelevent. Ebay, Yahoo, advertise points, make reservations first; what is the difference. I personally have thus far chosen not to schedule time then rent it out, just my personal choice. The problem I have with ebay and the like is not the price or the fact they advertise that they have everything, it's the fact that some of the adds are totally misleading. Not the lack of housekeeping c**p, just that the tone of some of them are overtly misleading and some have direct untruths.

Besides as previously established on this board so eloquently recently, it would be illegal for DVC to prevent renting one's ownership even if the POS stated specifically it was against the rules.

[Caskbill]

Dean, there's no question about any legality of renting points any way someone wants to. The point is that this is not a good thing for the membership in general.

There are many things that are "legal", but the question being addressed is who does it help and who does it hurt.

If you get hurt in an accident by a driver who only had 0.099 blood alcohol, then it's OK because he's not legally drunk?

Or you get hit by another driver who is sleep deprived, or talking on a cell phone, or dropped a hot coffee in his lap, then it's OK because none of that is illegal?

People are still harmed by other's actions, even though they are 'legal'. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

So how are we as DVC members hurt? Well, let's say you and 11 of your friends all chip in $10,000 each and buy a $120,000 Motor Home (this is a realistic price). Each of you gets to use it for a month. But one of your friends lets 30 strangers use it, 1-day each, during his month. Do you NOT believe that your maintenance costs are going to be higher, your wear and tear is going to be more severe, your insurance costs may go up, all because of one person?

Over the years, on business trips, I've rented hundreds of different cars. Many of these are pieces of junk, having been beaten by so many different drivers. In general, and there are strong exceptions both ways on this, but IN GENERAL, renters do not take as good of care of property as owners do. Just ask anybody in housekeeping at any resort.

Thus we as members pay for this. In our dues, in the quality and upkeep of the resorts (maintenance time delays), and in the ambience we expected. On this last note a reflection a few years ago at OKW some non-members (this I know from conversations, but I don't know if they were renters or cash ressies thru Disney), parked a very old RV in the lot, sideways, taking up about 4 spaces. It stayed there all week. This is against the rules, and is in our guidelines.

I wonder how many of these 'commercial' renters bother to send a complete copy of the guidelines to everyone they rent to. My guess is never. Even as you said, some of their ads are totally misleading.

Now before I get jumped too quickly, let me add that of course these are the worst case examples. I personally believe that those who rent out their points on very rare occassions, like yourself, are probably much more selective. They probably go to family, or friends, or acquaintenances, or other DVC members. And you probably inform them what to expect, and what is expected of them. You probably also inform them of how points can be used, and maybe even help them in selecting the type of unit and the days that work best for them. I have no problem with this.

But for those in a few categories who abuse the 'intent' of DVC, and care only for their own little greedy profit motives, and could care less about the rest of us, for them I have nothing but contempt. It may be legal, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Dean]

Overall I guess we agree on most points. It is within the rules but you don't have to feel it should be, that is your right. While I would agree there is the potential for a renter to trash the place, that is true of an owner also.

I guess I just am not convinced that owners are better at caring for the place than renters. Your motor home example and rental car experienced are flawed somewhat because the cost of upkeep is so removed from most of us that I doubt it will affect the general membership enough to matter. And I don’t see the owners, as a group, being that empowered or that dedicated and motivated. Remember this board is a small minority and likely an anomaly as well that isn’t representative of the general membership. Remember the member of this board who was accosted in the Laundry by another member. Also, I've met a lot of people over the years who trash their car and home that THEY own and pay to maintain.

As to renting to members, I don't believe I've ever rented to a member. I've had members contact me but it never seemed to work out. Truthfully, as a group, members tend to be more difficult to work with. Don't get me wrong, most people who contact me are a pleasure to deal with, members or not. My limited experience however would suggest that when there's someone wanting to haggle over the price or want extra guarantees or cancellation rights, it has been a member. The only problem I've had was with a member scheduling time then backing out, now a member on this board. Now maybe I've gotten a better class of renter than most but I don't think so. The few renters I've had seem to be universally appreciative and thrilled to be able to go. Think about your first stay at DVC and that is the way they relate on return. I've gotten responses like "Wow", "thanks for letting me use your home" and the like. I've gotten phone calls, emails and gifts as a thank you from people who were in awe. Also remember that the member who rents has some financial responsibility if things get out of control. While there’s no question that what visitors do at DVC affect our cost, I just see it as some people are bad people and not as a renter vs. owner issue. It would take hard numbers to convince me renters are worse than members, maybe DVC wants to do a study. Do you want to pay for a study with your dues? Now with traditional timeshares where you have the same unit every time, I might be easier to convince that ownership has much of an impact on how well a guest cares for the unit but not in general.

As to commercial, I’ve said several times on this board that the word commercial is much overused. Sorry but I feel most people who use the word in this context are consciously or subconsciously attempting to influence the views of others. I think it’s clear that DVC intended this only for their protection. I read the wording in the POS as relating to things like opening a store, putting up a name something like “DVC RENTALS” and placing large ads in the magazines and newspapers. I would equate even the largest renter I know of to more like my son mowing yards or my daughter babysitting only my kids are making more money. Of course the IRS definition would be 2 weeks a year which with a point system is a little vague.

Actually, an alcohol level of 0.099 is legally drunk in many states so I guess it depends on where you are. To me the comparison would be an alcohol level of 0.01 or less, and accordingly no factor in the final outcome. I guess this just shows the different way we're looking at this.

I’m not sure what you mean by abusing the intent of DVC. DVC’s intent was obviously to make money. Don’t confuse the statements about DVC being intended for personal use as meaning or relating to a magical stay, getting the reservation you want or any similar idealistic gut feeling. It is simply a statement to protect them, not you. Renting within the rules and laws is still personal use. I also don’t see the amount of “profit” having anything to do with this issue. To me it’s much like taxes, if I pay $100 in taxes, I’ve paid $100 of MY money. If they reduce it to $50, they’ve allowed me to keep $50 of MY money and they didn’t GIVE me anything.


I guess I don't see the extreme example you seem to fear being reality. Sure there may be one or too people so far on the fringe that all of us would look down on them but I personally haven't seen that. To me it seems that there are those that just feel from their heart that renting is wrong, much like the abortion debate where they aren’t even arguing the same issues. The renter says it’s his/her points and can use them as they wish and DVC says it’s ok. The person opposed says but they might trash the place or take a reservation that a member wants or someone might actually make a profit on renting (making money is not necessarily a bad thing BTW).

So I guess we’re pretty close on most issues, just end up falling on different sides of the fence in the final outcome, but that’s ok. To me that’s the purpose of this board, to allow us to discuss these issue. I hope I can do it in a civil manner, at least I’ve always tried to do so. I routinely read my posts and edit them to try to be non personal and sensitive while still conveying my sometime fairly strong views and belief’s. I guess it’s like the saying “a bad day on vacation is better than a good day at work”, while not totally accurate, it does convey the overall feeling.

[Caskbill]

Dean
I think we agree on quite a bit, and can probably agree to disagree on a few items here and there.

On the alcohol example, I left out a decimal. I meant 0.0099, or just under the .01 limit in most states.

In your example you stated how appreciative some people were to you, letting them use 'your home'. This I believe is the fundamental philosophical difference we have. To many of us, DVC is a very special home, and we treat it that way. As people start renting units out to more people in general, it becomes less of a home and just more of a 'hotel'.

All you comments are valid, as I believe are mine.

I think we all agree though that it's great to have a forum like this where we can freely exchange views, and express individual feelings.

[Dean]

Absolutely. Must agree that this forum is great to exchange views even when they're different than mine (read as wrong). LOL.