Disney World on list of lowest-paying jobs

[nytimez]

Anyone else see this story at MSNBC? Ouch!

The 8 lowest-paying jobs in America
(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38168029/ns/business-careers/)

"...but in Florida, land of Disney World, the wage is $8.90 an hour. Alas, Mickey Mouse isn’t spreading the joy to workers’ pockets. Wages there for these jobs are below the national mean hourly wage of $9.35 an hour."

I've always realized that the CMs don't make much money for what they do -- but this makes me appreciate them even more. Thanks to all the CMs who manage to spread the magic even if you're struggling to make ends meet yourself.

[Donut23]

It's been this way ..... well ..... forever!

A few years ago I worked with two relocated castmembers. They said many castmembers start at Disney but move to Universal or Sea World for better wages and working conditions.

Next time you wonder if it's worth tipping a mousekeeper.....remember they are working for less than $10 p/hour.....generally part time so they receive no medical (like they could afford it) or other benefits.

At $8.90 p/hour - full-time wages for a 52 week year would only be $18,512 -that's $356 for a 40 hour week BEFORE deductions. 31 hours (part time hours) - $275.90 before deductions.

One reason we always try to make castmembers smile.

[Maistre Gracey]

Well.. I would love for everyone to make lots of money, but the jobs listed are essentially non skilled jobs. No offense meant to the people in those positions, but that is just reality. I wouldn't expect a movie usher to make 80k, would you?

MG

[skiingfast]

Next time you wonder if it's worth tipping a mousekeeper.....remember they are working for less than $10 p/hour.....generally part time so they receive no medical (like they could afford it) or other benefits.

At $8.90 p/hour - full-time wages for a 52 week year would only be $18,512 -that's $356 for a 40 hour week BEFORE deductions. 31 hours (part time hours) - $275.90 before deductions.


The flip side of this if the wage went up they wouldn't not be able to get insurance through the govenment.

Walmart often accused because of it's low wage and few benefits, but has the largest number of employees in the US who get medicaid. So they aren't uninsured.

I'm not saying this is right, but should disney raise the compensation to $17 an hour. Then how bad would you feel for Mousekeeping? How would you feel about higher rates for food, rooms and tickets?

[Donut23]

Well.. I would love for everyone to make lots of money, but the jobs listed are essentially non skilled jobs. No offense meant to the people in those positions, but that is just reality. I wouldn't expect a movie usher to make 80k, would you?

MG



I don't think anyone would expect an entry level castmember to earn $80,000...but a living wage would be nice, don't you think?

I'd like to see ANY of us here to try to live on $19,000 a year!!! That's a BIG difference from $80,000!

[patsal]

Essentially all listed jobs that pay that wage are not good paying jobs anywhere, not just at Disney. The difference, some people tip workers in WDW so they make more. Please don't misunderstand, we do need people who are willing to work for these wages because we need people to do this work, but this is unskilled, entry level stuff. I think many are two wage earning families so double that for household income, or younger people who still live at home.

[Rupert B Puppenstein]

I wonder if they group their interns into that figure. I know when I was in the college program, the wage was $5.60 an hour and then they charged us $62 or $65 a week for housing (which we lived with 5 other people). The only way I came home with any money in the bank was by doing so much overtime at other resorts. People gripe about the ticket prices so really there is no room for much improvement in wages. So, tipping is definitely appreciated for many of the castmembers we will meet during our trips like another posted pointed out.

[KidDurango]

Things aren't as bad as they are being painted here. First, unlike as was stated earlier, "most" of the cast members are not PT and they do recieve pretty decent benefits. The union contract that governs most of the cast members says that 70% of the workforce must be full time.
Also, if wages and benefits are so bad, why do you see so many 10, 20 and 30+ year cast members even among the hourly cast members, Universal and Sea World's hiring processes are not so difficult as to disuade anyone from going if the conditions were truly better.
Finally, for those reading this from outside of the state of Florida, you must consider that though Florida in general has a lower wage than the national mean, the cost of living is signifcantly lower as well. To start, there is no state income tax, so a larger percentage of your pay goes home with you. Also, housing is considerably cheaper. There are nice areas around Orlando right now where you can get a 3000 sq ft house for under 200,000. For most of the country, that is a huge bargan.

[Figment632]

Its a theme park why would you pay the employees like ride staff cleaning crews anything more?

[nytimez]

Things aren't as bad as they are being painted here. First, unlike as was stated earlier, "most" of the cast members are not PT and they do recieve pretty decent benefits. The union contract that governs most of the cast members says that 70% of the workforce must be full time.
Also, if wages and benefits are so bad, why do you see so many 10, 20 and 30+ year cast members even among the hourly cast members, Universal and Sea World's hiring processes are not so difficult as to disuade anyone from going if the conditions were truly better.
Finally, for those reading this from outside of the state of Florida, you must consider that though Florida in general has a lower wage than the national mean, the cost of living is signifcantly lower as well. To start, there is no state income tax, so a larger percentage of your pay goes home with you. Also, housing is considerably cheaper. There are nice areas around Orlando right now where you can get a 3000 sq ft house for under 200,000. For most of the country, that is a huge bargan.

I don't think anyone making $8.90 an hour is buying a $200,000 house. And state income tax doesn't enter the picture at that level -- as a previous poster pointed out, the Disney average would work out to just above $18,000 a year on a full-time basis. With the standard exemptions, they aren't paying much in taxes at all (if anything). Most states base income taxes on federal taxes, and nearly half of all U.S. households pain no income tax last year (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1) (typically a family of four, including two children, who earn $50,000 a year or less -- or more than the value of two full-time Disney jobs).

[Rupert B Puppenstein]

Things aren't as bad as they are being painted here. First, unlike as was stated earlier, "most" of the cast members are not PT and they do recieve pretty decent benefits. The union contract that governs most of the cast members says that 70% of the workforce must be full time.
Also, if wages and benefits are so bad, why do you see so many 10, 20 and 30+ year cast members even among the hourly cast members, Universal and Sea World's hiring processes are not so difficult as to disuade anyone from going if the conditions were truly better.
Finally, for those reading this from outside of the state of Florida, you must consider that though Florida in general has a lower wage than the national mean, the cost of living is signifcantly lower as well. To start, there is no state income tax, so a larger percentage of your pay goes home with you. Also, housing is considerably cheaper. There are nice areas around Orlando right now where you can get a 3000 sq ft house for under 200,000. For most of the country, that is a huge bargan.

Housing may be cheaper, but property taxes are pretty high so most can not afford a house with those wages. Yes, Disney does have some great benefits which have to be added into the equation as being additional pay, but I think a lot of people stay more for the people that visit than because they actually love their jobs. I know most griped about the Union atmosphere because seniority won over everything and that you really had no choice but to join the union. I guarantee if the union was dismissed that pay would go up because they could staff for what is needed rather than what is required by the contract. Unions used to have a good place in the hospitality industry but they are slowly being phased out.

[jlwhitney]

I think many people forgot to mention that people CHOOSE to work there and stay there for thier own reasons. If someone is not happy in thier job and thier pay it is that persons responisbility to fight and do what they need to reach for a job they want. Many people grouch and complain about thier job/benefits/pay and do nothing about it. You are also forgeeting all the international staff who for them the pay is great...anywhere in the world where our dollar is stronger is great for those many workers...plus some of them are getting skills and oppurtunities that they would not get back home.

I also agree that the jobs are non-skilled jobs for the most part and no one would expect to get paid a ton for them.

Also, Florida has No state income tax at all and property tax is high but no higher than Pennnslyvania (we moved from PA to FL). You can defiantly get a bigger and nicer house down here for less money than other places.

[CandyMandy]

I don't think anyone would expect an entry level castmember to earn $80,000...but a living wage would be nice, don't you think?

Define "living wage." :rolleyes:

[KidDurango]

Sorry, didn't mean to make my examples so difficult to use in a comparison situation. I should have known better than to think someone might be able to extrapolate that housing in general is cheaper from my example. So I will rephrase. In the Orlando area, it is easy to find a 1400 sq ft home for under 100,000. Also, as a general rule, those who are just starting, and therefore earning the lowest cited rate, are not looking to purchase a home, so I will also say that rent is comparably low.

[lockedoutlogic]

Unless they have drastically re-written their rules (they haven't)

...accepting tips is explicitly prohibited for the majority of workers for the Walt Disney Company...in writing termination for acceptance is not unheard of...i personally worked with someone who was terminated for accepting gratuities in a "non-tipped" job title.

The legend was that Disney himself didn't want to encourage a system where people could "pay more" for better service...which is logical in theory.

But under the current labor system at wdw...it is a means of cost control and a way to maintain order in the day to day operation.

You've seen it manifested over the years....servers at restaurants (particularly character buffets) where earning 75-100K (roughly...in some cases) to basically clear plates and pour juice. Their managers were making 1/3 that much. disney cut tables....
pleasure island bartenders would take home $200-400$ a night in tips...disney cut hours and shifts...

This tug of war has and will go on forever there as they toe the fine line between keeping enough staff to operate and eliminating as much benefit to the employee as possible to preserve the property as a cash cow.


Many people are against outsourcing...i'm all for it at WDW. Perhaps the remaining disney employees will then be brought up to a respectable standard...and at least they will -perhaps - carry on the standards of 1955. It's probably the best shot you have.

It is true that most of the jobs at WDW are "manual" by todays standards and wouldn't necessarily involve high wages or benefits. But i've always been of the mindset that what you would lose in hourly compensation, you would gain in productivity, product integrity, repeat business, and bang for your buck when it comes to paying for health benefits, vacation,and other forms of compensation by streamlining the WDW workforce into a smaller, but much more effective and competent workforce.

But that's just me....their models tell them buy in bulk and sacrifice on quality (attention wal-mart shoppers)

As far as tipping...there are "tipped" positions that are paid a baseline salary wage per hour...somewhere around probably 4 dollars now...with the understanding that the gratuities provide the majority of the earnings. Bell hops, bartenders, and waiters are included in those.

Most other WDW positions are not...including housekeepers. are they tipped? sure Is it a problem with the managers on the ground? 99.9% of the time no Is it allowed by the disney guidelines? absolutely not.

And as far as my own experience (and contrary to some of the misguided comments on this particular thread)...not everyone who works at WDW is simply a clock-punching drone. Many current and former people provided necessary services to keep the money operation going. As much as they would like - the place can't run itself and can't be done without 1 on 1 skills and interaction, real-time problem solving in a given moment, and the human brain.

Working in guest service operations, i had the "responsibility" for maintaining order with the employees, operations, computers, and financial processes at one of the busiest front desks at WDW for roughly 9 hours a day....that equated to hundreds of thousands of dollars of monetary transactions just during my watch each day.

so it's not all "amusement park for dummies" It can be very mindless...but it can also be pretty important to how things show on your stockholder annual report.

There is a pretty big lack of perspective on some of the comments here so far...

And i for one am disheartened and embarassed when an article spells it out how the employees at WDW are chattle in the grand scheme of things.

I go there often and spend loads of money too...but i know what it is like on the other side. And if i had to describe it in one word...it would not be "magic".

Just find one of these 20,30 year vets and ask what's different about now from years ago. If not the first or second thing they say...they will undoubtedly say that "this used to be a "good" job" or "hard to get"

That was because the pay was more on par in the past than it is now. And that is why they can't keep enough people on staff. What used to be a respectable, livable wage in the 70s and 80s has fallen behind the CPI and inflation significantly over time.

I can't believe that somebody suggest that wal-mart was doing their workers "a favor" by allowing them to qualify for medicaid...they're real heros
We can only hope that Disney doesn't "cave" to the pressure and give their employees $17 an hour :sad2:

[Donut23]

DH is a 32 year veteran. If you ask him if anything is different I suspect his first comment would be to remind everyone of the two extensive layoffs a year ago (which were preceeded by small localized layoffs the year prior). Staffing levels are bare bones. This means tremendous stress and prone to mistakes.

....prone to mistakes. Think about it - do you want your children on a ride supervised by understaffed, low-wage employees. Oh yes....."they are just theme park employes, why would you pay ride staff anything more?" Even the most dedicated staff are prone to mistakes when short-staffed.

I don't think anyone here has said Disney should pay $17 p/hour for entry level staff (almost double their actual starting salary).

Any some wonder why there are occassional lapses in Pixie Dust.

[Lewisc]

We're living in some kind of bizzaro world when people consider it a positive when a company pays the employees so little that they're eligible for government assistance including medicaid, food stamps and other benefits designed for the working poor.

I understand the jobs we're talking about are lower paid jobs. The point that's made is Disney is paying below the National averages and, according to at least one poster, less then what Universal is paying.

It looks like many CMs, not in positions that are allowed to accept tips, don't make much (any?) more then housekeeping. I often wondered why some posters think it's important to tip housekeeping (even though it's not a "tipped" position) when CMs in similar jobs (at similar pay) aren't tipped. Does the CM who cleans the restrooms in the theme parks have a better job then the CM who cleans our room?

[Maistre Gracey]

I don't think anyone would expect an entry level castmember to earn $80,000...but a living wage would be nice, don't you think?

I'd like to see ANY of us here to try to live on $19,000 a year!!! That's a BIG difference from $80,000!
No, I wouldn't expect these *types* of jobs to pay a livable wage (as patsal pointed out it's not just Disney, it's these types of jobs in general).

Disney and the current economy aside, in general these types of jobs are filled with part time high school or college students trying to make a few bucks. They are not usually filled with a the family bread winner trying to support a family.

On a side note, in 1990 my salary was $12,800 for a professional job. Granted that was 20 years ago, but still...
I have found a new job since then!

MG

[nytimez]

There seems to be an assumption that all the people earning low wages at Disney are cleaning bathrooms, when that's definitely not the case. I know people who had jobs at WDW that required advanced degrees and had to leave because the pay was so low and there were few opportunities to earn more.

That's just sad.

I know some people say "If they don't like it, they should leave." And that's true to a certain extent -- but it also means that a place we all enjoy visiting will lose talented staff members.

Also, as Central Florida's largest employer, Disney's wages have a huge impact on everyone else (as well as the availability of other jobs). Remember, 1 out of every 6 workers in Central Florida is employed Disney.

[Uncleromulus]

Maistre:
That's a good point. You may start at $5.00 an hour, but YOU don't need to be satisfied with that. I know there are many stories of successful WDW employees who started at the bottom and were willing and able to work their way up in the Company.
.

[Maistre Gracey]

There seems to be an assumption that all the people earning low wages at Disney are cleaning bathrooms, when that's definitely not the case. I know people who had jobs at WDW that required advanced degrees and had to leave because the pay was so low and there were few opportunities to earn more.
That's true, but the referenced article appears to be referring to the non skilled jobs.

On a re-read of the article, it mentions Disney in a generic way, but the category is theme park employees, not Disney employees.

MG

[lockedoutlogic]

And that's a good point. You may start at $5.00 an hour, but YOU don't need to be satisfied with that. I know there are many stories of successful WDW employees who started at the bottom and were willing and able to work their way up in the Company.

in many cases there are no places to go....hourlies are "topped out" within 7 years....managers are low paid by industry standards and almost always have to leave TWDC for others because there is a logjam in management and too few opportunities for advancement.

As a former disney employee who left on amicable terms and has since increased my wages there by 500-600%...there are still many days when i miss working there.

And i would if they provided a reasonable level of compensation for stewardship of such as RIDICULOUSLY lucrative frontline business enterprise.

Pay me 40 K to manage, troubleshoot, collect ridiculous amounts of money, and uphold a core part of the company's strength in its public image...and i would still do it.

but they don't think this way....increase prices while squeezing water from the rocks...

That is the cost of all the other ridiculous things Disney does and needs the funds for....like Nick Cage movies:3dglasses...ill advised parks in china

[nytimez]

That's true, but the referenced article appears to be referring to the non skilled jobs.

On a re-read of the article, it mentions Disney in a generic way, but the category is theme park employees, not Disney employees.

MG

No, I know Disney theme park employees who need specialized skills and/or degrees and still earn very low salaries. Horticulture, pest control and animal keepers at Disney's Animal Kingdom all fall into that category. Some of these folks aren't earning a whole more more than that $8.90 an hour.

[jlwhitney]

In regards to Tipped positions..you can't entirely blame Disney on those paychecks because people in general are tipping less and less then they use to...there is a reason why once you have a party of 6 or more at TS meal the tip is forced on you to pay...they are worried they won't get it....

or that housekeeper who cleans up after you for a week and gets nothing....that is not cool.....

Tips used to make people work harder to go above and beyond..but now they fight for very little...

I have known people to go to Disney and on the cruises to not tip a single cent saying they could barely afford to go in the first place...though tips should be factored into ones total cost of the vacation....

The bottom line really comes down to is Money does not buy happiness...it is an attitude thing...People can have a happy, fulfilling life if that is what they want...complaining just tears everyone down and keeps the sour mood alive...

Having a loving family and friends to come home to at the end of the day brings far more satidfcation than bringing home a big pay check.

[lockedoutlogic]

In regards to Tipped positions..you can't entirely blame Disney on those paychecks because people in general are tipping less and less then they use to...there is a reason why once you have a party of 6 or more at TS meal the tip is forced on you to pay...they are worried they won't get it....

or that housekeeper who cleans up after you for a week and gets nothing....that is not cool.....

Tips used to make people work harder to go above and beyond..but now they fight for very little...

I have known people to go to Disney and on the cruises to not tip a single cent saying they could barely afford to go in the first place...though tips should be factored into ones total cost of the vacation....

The bottom line really comes down to is Money does not buy happiness...it is an attitude thing...People can have a happy, fulfilling life if that is what they want...complaining just tears everyone down and keeps the sour mood alive...

Having a loving family and friends to come home to at the end of the day brings far more satidfcation than bringing home a big pay check.

i agree with your sentiments...

however - while money doesn't buy "happiness"...the stress of having to fret over where the funds are coming from for basic costs that never go away (lodging, utilities, clothing, transportation, education) on a dialy, weekly, or monthly cycle is an incredibly draining process that does deduct from a person's potential happiness.

so those that struggle my simply be looking for a little bit of mental rest and security...not necessarily money to buy happiness

[WDSearcher]

No, I know Disney theme park employees who need specialized skills and/or degrees and still earn very low salaries. Horticulture, pest control and animal keepers at Disney's Animal Kingdom all fall into that category. Some of these folks aren't earning a whole more more than that $8.90 an hour.
Yes, but clearly these skilled, degreed people see a future at Disney or have a significant reason for wanting to work at Disney. Otherwise, they could easily take their skills and experience and work elsewhere for more. It's that "difference" -- whatever it is to each person -- that keeps them at Disney, and Disney knows this. Every single employer in the world -- from Bob's Pick-Your-Own Orchard to Google -- pays the least they can to get the best they can. It's how it works.

When someone takes a job at Disney, they do so KNOWING how much money they'll be making. A simple bit of math will tell them if that's enough to support themselves or their family. If it's not, and they take the job anyway, then they know going in that they will need OT or a second job or a roommate or whatever in order to make that work. It's not like you take the job and then have to wait for your first paycheck to find out how much you'll be making.

And really ... when you say "living wage", that's different for everyone. For some people, if they can't afford a flat screen, condo and weekend scuba, they don't consider it a living wage. For others, it's much more bare bones. Disney does now, and always has, paid me a living wage. Even when I was a lowly hourly. There were years where I had three roommates and drove a battle-trap of a car, but I managed to feed, clothe and shelter myself as well as put away money for retirement and pay off my student loans. All on a measely $7.45/hr. Plus ... I could get my family into WDW for free and I had a better benefits package than pretty much anyone I knew.

:earsboy:

[polineedyan]

What would you think of a CM who made 5.50 plus tips after over 18 years with Disney? I met one..

[zulemara]

And what about the boat pilots, monorail pilots, and bus drivers? While the bus drivers have CDLs and are paid better than the rest, boat pilots transport thousands of guests in a day and are directly responsible for the safety of those guests for a wage that is barely above the minimum. Boat drivers in the rest of the country are paid higher than we are.

Now I'm not just talking about myself here, more about what I see with other pilots. Disney is my 2nd job, not primary(thank god) and I work there because if someone doesn't try and keep Walt's dream alive, then it will keep dying a slow terrible death.

The philosophy used to be "take care of the cast and they'll take care of the guest." Now it's more "raise the prices, squeeze the pennies from the guests, and we're the biggest employer in central Florida, so screw the cast"

The way the economy is around here, if you don't work at Disney, you can't afford to go there. I do applaud them for the monthly payment thing, but it's still crazy expensive for a family. So what happens? Anyone who wants to be able to enjoy the parks once in a while have to work there. That really is the best bennefit.

[Oglet]

As a current Cast Member I'll be the first one to admit that Disney workers in general are well underpaid. I love working for Disney, the benefits and perks are good however benefits and perks don't pay the bills.

I think what we are forgetting here is that Disney can only get away with what they are allowed to get away with. The majority of hourly jobs at WDW are union jobs and without getting into the whole debate about if unions are good or bad those with non union job roles typically have better paying jobs.

Disney is a business and is going to do whatever it can to maximize profits, I understand that and if I were a share holder I would expect nothing less however the unions have been the ones to let the workers down by not negotiating higher pay rates when contract negotiations come around.

[Donut23]

It looks like many CMs, not in positions that are allowed to accept tips, don't make much (any?) more then housekeeping. I often wondered why some posters think it's important to tip housekeeping (even though it's not a "tipped" position) when CMs in similar jobs (at similar pay) aren't tipped. Does the CM who cleans the restrooms in the theme parks have a better job then the CM who cleans our room?



Cash used for gratuities is an essential part of our travel budget - and we tip well. We do not limit our gratuitites to housekeeping, though I have ALWAYS tipped my housekeeper - business and leisure travel.

By the way, on our last trip I DID put a $5 in the hand of the housekeeper cleaning the lobby bathroom at the Beach Club...she almost cried as she thanked me. Talk about sharing some Pixie Dust!

Specifically housekeepers. Ever walk down a hallway and see a door open to a room with a few teenagers?

We NOW tip at disney hotels because we like to have our room cleaned early in the day. With the cutbacks in mousekeeping, we are seeing the carts still out in the hallways after 5 pm as they struggle to complete their quota of rooms. We always go out of our way to meet our housekeeper .... they know when we leave the room and poof - it's done next.

My DH says it even better......if our daily tip means that mother can buy and extra gallon of milk for her children....or maybe even take them to a movie at the end of the week, the tips are well worth it. After all, NONE of us traveling to WDW are paid entry level disney wages!

We tip generously and often - and we are proud to do so.

[Lewisc]

or that housekeeper who cleans up after you for a week and gets nothing....that is not cool.....

Waiters, bellhops get paid less then minimum wage. They are considered "tipped workers".Their tips are part of their compensation.

Disney doesn't consider housekeeping a "tipped" position. Their salary is high enough so tipping isn't expected. I've read housekeepers are suppose to refuse a tip if offered. Completely different with CMs who are waiters, bellhops, bartenders etc.

It's not cool to comment about guests who rely on Disney, and not posters on an internet board, in deciding which employees should be tipped.

[Peter Pirate 2]

Lewis C I am proud to be an internet buddy of yours! Donut, your attitude and actions are totally admirable. You are a man among men (unless you are a female, of course).

[Maistre Gracey]

What would you think of a CM who made 5.50 plus tips after over 18 years with Disney? I met one..
So have I... They are waiters at the Yachtsman Steakhouse and pull in $100/hour in tips.
My point is, that without clarifying your statement it means very little.

MG

[Maistre Gracey]

And what about the boat pilots, monorail pilots, and bus drivers? While the bus drivers have CDLs and are paid better than the rest, boat pilots transport thousands of guests in a day and are directly responsible for the safety of those guests for a wage that is barely above the minimum. Boat drivers in the rest of the country are paid higher than we are.

Now I'm not just talking about myself here, more about what I see with other pilots. Disney is my 2nd job, not primary(thank god) and I work there because if someone doesn't try and keep Walt's dream alive, then it will keep dying a slow terrible death.

The philosophy used to be "take care of the cast and they'll take care of the guest." Now it's more "raise the prices, squeeze the pennies from the guests, and we're the biggest employer in central Florida, so screw the cast"

The way the economy is around here, if you don't work at Disney, you can't afford to go there. I do applaud them for the monthly payment thing, but it's still crazy expensive for a family. So what happens? Anyone who wants to be able to enjoy the parks once in a while have to work there. That really is the best bennefit.
zulemara, I have nothing but the utmost respect for you as a poster, and Cast Member.
I freely admit that I know nothing about being a boat pilot. I don't think I understand all the risks involved, nor do I understand the training you may go through.

That said, I am also a pilot (not a boat pilot), and I am well aware of the years of training I went through. I also am well aware of the years of VERY low pay I received when I was working in the lower levels of my field.
I'm not saying you are in the lower levels (trust me, I have total respect for what you do), but my point is that you could move on if you wanted..??

MG

[skiingfast]

As far as tipping housekeeping, on another board a poster linked an article where this was virtually non existent 20 years ago. Also it noted that in interviews not all the people suggested it was nessecary and that only 1 to 3 dollars was nessecary if any despite the price of the hotel. It is not standard and up to an individual guest to decide if they want to tip.

I didn't say it was a positive, only that it is a fact that Walmart's low paid employees are eligible for governement assitance regarding insurance. You can learn all about this in the anti Walmart documentary "Walmart the High Cost of Low Price".

Also the unskilled young CM's at WDW are by far part of the CP, that is they are college students. Also the foreign workers are most likely on student visas. I only guess this because a J1 visa is cheaper for the employer. To get this type of Visa they have to be in college. In the college program many don't like it and don't return. Many like it and return at their low wage positions.

[Blairtony]

Hai Mate

Acoording to me a company should take care of all his employees irrespective of their job
designations. It is the employees who build a company .It's a collective team work that makes the company grow in the market.And all employees should be paid acoording to the prescribed norms or laws. So naturally everyone leave the company if they are not paid proper wages. isn't it?

[Maistre Gracey]

The eight lowest paid occupations...---

1. Food preparation and serving workers, including fast food
2. Dishwashers
3. Cashiers
4. Hosts and hostesses
5. Amusement park attendants
6. Movie theater ushers, ticket takers
7. Farm workers
8. Personal and home care aides

Thank you Mr. Einstein. I never would have guessed...

More stimulus dollars at work??

MG

[Maistre Gracey]

Cash used for gratuities is an essential part of our travel budget - and we tip well. We do not limit our gratuitites to housekeeping, though I have ALWAYS tipped my housekeeper - business and leisure travel.

By the way, on our last trip I DID put a $5 in the hand of the housekeeper cleaning the lobby bathroom at the Beach Club...she almost cried as she thanked me. Talk about sharing some Pixie Dust!

Specifically housekeepers. Ever walk down a hallway and see a door open to a room with a few teenagers?

We NOW tip at disney hotels because we like to have our room cleaned early in the day. With the cutbacks in mousekeeping, we are seeing the carts still out in the hallways after 5 pm as they struggle to complete their quota of rooms. We always go out of our way to meet our housekeeper .... they know when we leave the room and poof - it's done next.

My DH says it even better......if our daily tip means that mother can buy and extra gallon of milk for her children....or maybe even take them to a movie at the end of the week, the tips are well worth it. After all, NONE of us traveling to WDW are paid entry level disney wages!

We tip generously and often - and we are proud to do so.
The housekeepers do a lousy job.
Sorry, but that's been my consistent experience.

MG

[skiingfast]

Hai Mate

Acoording to me a company should take care of all his employees irrespective of their job
designations. It is the employees who build a company .It's a collective team work that makes the company grow in the market.And all employees should be paid acoording to the prescribed norms or laws. So naturally everyone leave the company if they are not paid proper wages. isn't it?

The problem with this is companies look like a pyramid with the owner/president at the top, and the lowest paid employees at the bottom.

With a public comany like Disney(DIS) It is like a pyramid with CP's at the bottom and Iger at the top. Holding another pyramid on top of that, built of shareholders, bond holders and the other holding the liabilty of the company.

This is in fact why low level wages don't keep up with inflation. Those people are at the bottom.

[Donut23]

Waiters, bellhops get paid less then minimum wage. They are considered "tipped workers".Their tips are part of their compensation.

Disney doesn't consider housekeeping a "tipped" position. Their salary is high enough so tipping isn't expected. I've read housekeepers are suppose to refuse a tip if offered. Completely different with CMs who are waiters, bellhops, bartenders etc.

It's not cool to comment about guests who rely on Disney, and not posters on an internet board, in deciding which employees should be tipped.



It's possible there may be some her who are not familiar with Emily Post - undenied queen of etiquette - first guideline published in 1922. Here are tipping guidelines for Travel from the Emily Post website - longtime industry standards. I have seen this posted on the DIS before - thought it might be worth repeating.

Guess what? I guarantee Disney is well aware of these guidelines since they are industry standards for a long time.


TRAVEL

Skycap at airport: $1 per bag if you check-in curbside; $2 per bag if skycap takes bags to check-in counter.

Hotel doorman: $1 per bag for help with luggage; $1 per person for hailing a cab

Hotel bellhop: $1 per bag for bringing luggage to your room (but a $2 minimum if you have just one bag)

Hotel housekeeper: $2 to $5* per night

Hotel concierge: $5 for getting you tickets or reservations ($10-plus if they're hard to get). No tip required when you ask for directions.

Cruise: Varies. Ask cruise line about customary gratuities.


Source: Emily Post Institute
* Additional source: Tipping.org

[Donut23]

The housekeepers do a lousy job.
Sorry, but that's been my consistent experience.

MG



I'm sorry you have not had better experience with Mousekeeping. Honestly, I cannot remember having poor housekeeping service in ANY of y trips - business or leisure. Well, ok, I have to admit, on a recent trip a couple of weeks ago they forgot to clean our room one day - Homewood Suites. That's it.

I have found Mousekeeping at WDW and DL excellent. As an example, I remember a last minute trip. We stayed at Riverside when the Azaleas were in bloom. Our second morning our table had a few extra glasses filled with those beautiful big-white-blooms from the Azalea bushes. Lovely touch.

I'm sorry you have not had the same experience.

[patsal]

It's possible there may be some her who are not familiar with Emily Post - undenied queen of etiquette - first guideline published in 1922. Here are tipping guidelines for Travel from the Emily Post website - longtime industry standards. I have seen this posted on the DIS before - thought it might be worth repeating.

Guess what? I guarantee Disney is well aware of these guidelines since they are industry standards for a long time.


TRAVEL

Skycap at airport: $1 per bag if you check-in curbside; $2 per bag if skycap takes bags to check-in counter.

Hotel doorman: $1 per bag for help with luggage; $1 per person for hailing a cab

Hotel bellhop: $1 per bag for bringing luggage to your room (but a $2 minimum if you have just one bag)

Hotel housekeeper: $2 to $5* per night

Hotel concierge: $5 for getting you tickets or reservations ($10-plus if they're hard to get). No tip required when you ask for directions.

Cruise: Varies. Ask cruise line about customary gratuities.


Source: Emily Post Institute
* Additional source: Tipping.org

However, even Disney says their housekeeping staff is not a tipped position. Sorry but itf a company has no way for an employee to claim their tips for tax purposes than I fail to see how accepting tips is even legal.

MG I have met similiar waitstaff people, one laughed at me when I said I was a teacher he said he worked way less hours now and pulled in an easy $80K and that was 10 years ago at 'Ohana/

FWIW I find mousekeeping marginal at best and often much worse. I have not had an impeccibly clean room in years.

[WDSearcher]

What would you think of a CM who made 5.50 plus tips after over 18 years with Disney? I met one..
I would think that they clearly liked their job or had no aspirations to move into anything different.

:earsboy:

[faneuil]

How well does Disney pay people that work in their offices? Like secretaries or HR professionals, or support staff positions?

I'm just wondering if the low pay is company wide.

I currently work at a university, and staff is paid extremely low. It seems to be a trend, no matter what industry you're in.

[Rupert B Puppenstein]

How well does Disney pay people that work in their offices? Like secretaries or HR professionals, or support staff positions?

I'm just wondering if the low pay is company wide.

I currently work at a university, and staff is paid extremely low. It seems to be a trend, no matter what industry you're in.

Again, it depends on your standard of living. Some may think the pay is fair but really does anyone? The biggest perk for those positions is not having to work late hours and weekends. Which is enough for a lot of people. :) The highest paid positions are Management - Directors, Assistant Directors, VP's, etc.

[faneuil]

Again, it depends on your standard of living. Some may think the pay is fair but really does anyone? The biggest perk for those positions is not having to work late hours and weekends. Which is enough for a lot of people. :) The highest paid positions are Management - Directors, Assistant Directors, VP's, etc.

Good point. I just know here, they did a salary study that showed staff - and particularly office support, such as secretaries - are paid $15,000 a year BELOW national average.

So I'm wondering if a secretary at Disney is making the industry average for support staff, or if that's another place they're cutting wages.

Not working nights or weekends is a huge perk, as long as you can still pay the rent and utilities every month! :)

When I go to the parks, I often wonder how CMs are making ends meet. I wonder the same thing when I talk to Disney CMs on the phone. Then I wonder about the people I never interact with. There must be something about Disney that makes people want to work there, low wages or not. Lots of CMs I talk to have been with Disney a very long time.

[Oglet]

Something is wrong when someone is having to work 50 - 60 hours a week just to try and make ends meet.

I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't be rewarded for working hard, going to school and trying to make something of their life all I am saying is those who do these kinds of jobs should be able to make enough money to live on and pay their bills regardless.

[JasonDVC]

In this country, everyone has the right to an opportunity to be successful. No everyone will be successful, but you have the opportunity.

In a lot of countries and systems you don't even have the opportunity. You get paid the same as everyone else even if you are more skilled and work harder.

I prefer the former.

That said, Success is relative. Maybe some people are just happy working their 40 hours, paying their rent and working at Disney.

[Rupert B Puppenstein]

Good point. I just know here, they did a salary study that showed staff - and particularly office support, such as secretaries - are paid $15,000 a year BELOW national average.

So I'm wondering if a secretary at Disney is making the industry average for support staff, or if that's another place they're cutting wages.

Not working nights or weekends is a huge perk, as long as you can still pay the rent and utilities every month! :)

When I go to the parks, I often wonder how CMs are making ends meet. I wonder the same thing when I talk to Disney CMs on the phone. Then I wonder about the people I never interact with. There must be something about Disney that makes people want to work there, low wages or not. Lots of CMs I talk to have been with Disney a very long time.

The pay levels for all non-management levels are closer to industry average (hospitality) which isn't high mind you, but most of the people I know in those positions would pick up extra hours working in other jobs at WDW. I think loving your job trumps making a ton of money. It is a bonus of course, but wouldn't it be even better to just love going to work each day? Plus, if you are picking up extra hours, you become a jack of all trades and have a lot more job security.

[kamik86]

I guess I'm one of the ones that don't feel so bad for Disney employees making these wages. My husband only makes $9, maybe $9.50 now, he works at Target. I don't feel bad for him that he makes this much, it was his choice not to go to college, to not continue with the electrical program he started in high school, etc.

He hates his job and is only doing it for the money to go to Disney. If we lived anywhere near Disney he would love to work there! He will quit his job and be a stay at home Dad when we have kids.

On the other hand I would also love to work at Disney. I wish I knew of the college program my freshman year as that was the ONLY year I could have done it. After that I needed to have co-ops since they were a graduation requirement and paid much more anyway. I am still technically eligible due to grad school but would have to give up my nice paying engineering job to do it, which obviously isn't going to happen :(.

[Lewisc]

Housekeepers in WDW resorts are at least paid the minimum wage. Disney doesn't consider housekeepers a "tipped" position. Employees working in "tipped" positions are frequently paid less then minimum wage, with customer tips being enough to bring their pay (at least) up to minimum wage. A couple of posters claim hotel managers told them housekeepers are told to refuse tips.

Disney is an exception to the tip housekeeping tradition. Possibly because Disney found their guests weren't tipping enough.

It's entirely possible some posters aren't familiar with the fact that Disney treats housekeepers different then other hotels.

Glad I could clear that up for you. Sorry my OP wasn't detailed enough for you.





It's possible there may be some her who are not familiar with Emily Post - undenied queen of etiquette - first guideline published in 1922. Here are tipping guidelines for Travel from the Emily Post website - longtime industry standards. I have seen this posted on the DIS before - thought it might be worth repeating.

Guess what? I guarantee Disney is well aware of these guidelines since they are industry standards for a long time.


TRAVEL

Skycap at airport: $1 per bag if you check-in curbside; $2 per bag if skycap takes bags to check-in counter.

Hotel doorman: $1 per bag for help with luggage; $1 per person for hailing a cab

Hotel bellhop: $1 per bag for bringing luggage to your room (but a $2 minimum if you have just one bag)

Hotel housekeeper: $2 to $5* per night

Hotel concierge: $5 for getting you tickets or reservations ($10-plus if they're hard to get). No tip required when you ask for directions.

Cruise: Varies. Ask cruise line about customary gratuities.


Source: Emily Post Institute
* Additional source: Tipping.org

[Donut23]

Housekeepers in WDW resorts are at least paid the minimum wage. Disney doesn't consider housekeepers a "tipped" position. Employees working in "tipped" positions are frequently paid less then minimum wage, with customer tips being enough to bring their pay (at least) up to minimum wage. A couple of posters claim hotel managers told them housekeepers are told to refuse tips.

Disney is an exception to the tip housekeeping tradition. Possibly because Disney found their guests weren't tipping enough.

It's entirely possible some posters aren't familiar with the fact that Disney treats housekeepers different then other hotels.

Glad I could clear that up for you. Sorry my OP wasn't detailed enough for you.


I have been tipping at WDW since my first visit - the second year the MK was open. Not once in all those years has a tip been refused.

After watching conversations here regarding tipping, I spoke with the GM of the Boardwalk (about an especially wonderful mousekeeper who took very good care of me when I had a 24 hour bug---and my travel companions were out playing). When asked about tipping he said "By all Means". To me - that was answer enough.

You may choose to not tip and use any excuse you wish to justify your reason. I will continue to bring smiles to the faces of people who perform a service for me. That's MY choice. I prefer the smiles. Perhaps that's why I seem to have such wonderful service from our mousekeepers.

[lockedoutlogic]

I have been tipping at WDW since my first visit - the second year the MK was open. Not once in all those years has a tip been refused.

After watching conversations here regarding tipping, I spoke with the GM of the Boardwalk (about an especially wonderful mousekeeper who took very good care of me when I had a 24 hour bug---and my travel companions were out playing). When asked about tipping he said "By all Means". To me - that was answer enough.

You may choose to not tip and use any excuse you wish to justify your reason. I will continue to bring smiles to the faces of people who perform a service for me. That's MY choice. I prefer the smiles. Perhaps that's why I seem to have such wonderful service from our mousekeepers.

not to be argumentative...but the previous poster was right...tipping is not allowed for the vast majority of employees.

if tips are left in rooms....they are to be turned in to management and then given to one of disney's charitabl fronts. seriously.

now, most of the time those who are on the ground have the sense to leave it alone...but it is prohibited for most of the staff

[nytimez]

This has been an eye-opener. I had always tipped Mousekeeping, I never realized these were non-tipped positions and that the employees were not supposed to accept them. I wonder why this message is so poorly communicated, though -- even the Frommers 2010 Disney guide suggests $1-$2 a day for Mousekeeping ("more if you've left a disaster area").

[Lewisc]

You may choose to not tip and use any excuse you wish to justify your reason. I will continue to bring smiles to the faces of people who perform a service for me. That's MY choice. I prefer the smiles. Perhaps that's why I seem to have such wonderful service from our mousekeepers.

When I go to a restaurant I tip the waiter, bartender (if I get a drink at the bar) valet (if a valet parks my car). I don't tip the chef, he's not working in tipped position. I don't tip the bus boy, the waiter typically shares tips with him.

I don't need to justify not tipping housekeeping. It's not a tipped position. Your comment is rude. I won't report it as a personal attack. I understand your comment is based on ignorance. Glad I could educate you.

[donaldduck352]

Say what you want,it's still below poverty wages!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DW is making there money without a doubt.But the trickledown pay scale don't reach the CM's at all....:sad2:

[nytimez]

I don't tip the chef, he's not working in tipped position..

I actually know people who will order drinks for the chef in restaurants. Not a cash tip, but still a tip. It doesn't mean the chef should be tipped by everyone else, but if people want to do it, I don't have a problem with it.

[skiingfast]

After watching conversations here regarding tipping, I spoke with the GM of the Boardwalk (about an especially wonderful mousekeeper who took very good care of me when I had a 24 hour bug---and my travel companions were out playing). When asked about tipping he said "By all Means". To me - that was answer enough.


Do you think the GM was influenced in his answer by your situation or by your enthusiasm for your housekeeper?

All I'm suggesting is that a candid answer may not of been what you got, and not easy to come by at WDW because of thier attitude toward pleasing guests.

[Donut23]

not to be argumentative...but the previous poster was right...tipping is not allowed for the vast majority of employees.

if tips are left in rooms....they are to be turned in to management and then given to one of disney's charitabl fronts. seriously.

now, most of the time those who are on the ground have the sense to leave it alone...but it is prohibited for most of the staff



If Disney was so serious about not tipping mousekeepers - and with the industry standard that tipping is acceptable, Disney would have instructions left in the room for each of us detailing their tipping guidelines so there would be absolutely no misunderstanding.

So far, I haven't found a document reminding me that tipping is forbidden, have you?


.....and for those who are unhappy with mousekeeping at WDW - I hope the next time to are lucky enough to have one of ours great mousekeepers. We have many really great memories of Pixie Dust in abundance from resort staff. After a long day in the parks, it's fun to look forward to the extra touches in our room.

This has actually reminded me to begin again a travel policy I held for many years. I travel for work and part of my wrapup at the end of a trip is to write at least THREE thank you letters to people who have made my trip easier or special. Now instead of complimentary phone calls to management, I'm going to put my thank you's in writing. It has far more impact for the individual employee anyway. I got lazy, thank you for the reminder!

[Rupert B Puppenstein]

not to be argumentative...but the previous poster was right...tipping is not allowed for the vast majority of employees.

if tips are left in rooms....they are to be turned in to management and then given to one of disney's charitabl fronts. seriously.

now, most of the time those who are on the ground have the sense to leave it alone...but it is prohibited for most of the staff

That is not true. They are given to the housekeeper if they are under $25 but even then I know of instances where they were given regardless. The handbook may say something else, but this is how it has been the last 10 years. At the front desk, it is another story...tips have to be turned in - but many times the managers will just let the CM keep them. But, under no circumstances is any CM - whether tipped or otherwise allowed to solicit tips.

[WDSearcher]

Say what you want,it's still below poverty wages!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DW is making there money without a doubt.But the trickledown pay scale don't reach the CM's at all....:sad2:
And every single CM knows that going in. If they choose to take the job, then they have made that decision with all cards on the table.

Every single company out there pays its entry-level unskilled workers the lowest they possibly can. Disney didn't suddenly invent low-paying jobs.

:earsboy:

[Lewisc]

If Disney was so serious about not tipping mousekeepers - and with the industry standard that tipping is acceptable, Disney would have instructions left in the room for each of us detailing their tipping guidelines so there would be absolutely no misunderstanding.

So far, I haven't found a document reminding me that tipping is forbidden, have you?


.....

A few years ago one of the FAQ brochures given to guests at check in had complete tipping guidelines. Waiter, bartender, bell services and valet Housekeeping wasn't listed.

Last time I checked the resort specific brochure given to guests at checkin specified gratuity not included when they listed services performed by CMs who work in a "tipped" positions; specifically bell services and valet. NO such mention is made in the section describing services provided by housekeeping.

It's considered appropriate to tip the desk clerk in cities like Las Vegas. Customers hope to get a complimentary room upgrade. Front desk clerks at Disney hotels aren't allowed to accept tips. Disney doesn't have a sign telling us not tip the CM who checks us in yet most of us have no doubt desk clerks aren't allowed to accept tips.

You have it backwards. Disney tells us which employees should be "tipped". There is no reason to give us a complete list of employees who don't work in a "tipped" position.

Most of the CMs we encounter don't get paid very much. Housekeepers (at Disney) aren't considered "tipped" employees. They're not paid very much, but most of the CMs we encounter aren't paid much either.

[nytimez]

A few years ago one of the FAQ brochures given to guests at check in had complete tipping guidelines. Waiter, bartender, bell services and valet Housekeeping wasn't listed.

Last time I checked the resort specific brochure given to guests at checkin specified gratuity not included when they listed services performed by CMs who work in a "tipped" positions; specifically bell services and valet. NO such mention is made in the section describing services provided by housekeeping.


Just because it's not singled out as a tipped position doesn't mean tipping is forbidden. I'd be more convinced if it said, "other employees are not allowed to accept gratuities."

[Ryansdad0727]

Disney is in a tough place with wages for general (not skilled) workers. Many general workers are college students or retired persons. Both categories recieve less pay from almost every business in america. Lets use a grocery store for comparison. A sacker will make minimum wage and if they want more money there are expected to learn and move up to cashier or stocker then move into produce or dairy and them into management. Each step makes them more money. Disney can't be expected to pay general workers who are between the ages of 25 to 50 more than college age or retirement age just because they are in thier prime earning age. Those CM's who start out in college certainly have the opportunity to move up.

[Lewisc]

Just because it's not singled out as a tipped position doesn't mean tipping is forbidden. I'd be more convinced if it said, "other employees are not allowed to accept gratuities."

My main point is housekeeping isn't a "tipped" position. Guests who chose not to tip housekeepers don't have any reason to justify their actions nor do they need to provide an excuse. There are some ignorant posters in this thread who try to equate stiffing a waiter/bellhop with not tipping a Disney housekeeper.

I have no idea which CMs are required to refuse a tip or which CMs are required to turn in their tips. A couple of credible posters were told by hotel managers that housekeepers are suppose to refuse tips.

There are a lot of CMS who don't get paid much more then minimum wage and who make our trip "magical". I don't see any reason why one CM who doesn't work in a "tipped" position is more entitled then a different CM also working in a position that' not "tipped". In other words why tip the person cleaning my room and not tip the person who clean the bathroom in a park.

People are certainly entitled to at least offer tips to employees not working in a "tipped" position including housekeepers and front desk clerks. They're not entitled to attack those posters/guests who limit their tips to CMs working in "tipped" positions.

[Lewisc]

A few years ago the NYTimes had an article comparing COSTCO and WalMart. Costco pays their employees almost 3X as much as Wal Mart. COSTCO offers health insurance. As another poster pointed out WalMarts health insurance is telling most of their employees to apply for medicaid. Service is better at COSTCO.

The question is if Disney guests (who pay $$$ for tickets,rooms and food) would get the level of service they're paying for if Disney either paid more or had more employees. Many posters have commented on a reduction in the level of service.

A poster in the transportation thread was staying at the POLY. Wanted to know if he should walk over the TTC and take the bus to DHS or if he should take the bus from the POLY to DHS. A poster works for the monorail. He insisted training told them there is no bus from any of the monorail resorts to DHS. No excuse for a trainer giving employees bad information. I don't know if paying more would lead to lower turnover and better service.

I agree with the previous posters. Employees agreed to work at that pay scale. The question is if pay scale is resulting in higher turnover and poor service.

[dvcblt93]

No offense to anyone on the College Program, cuz there are some great kids out there, but you cant expect excellent service with a staff who keeps turning over every 6 months!

And Disney is pushing for even more College kids and less FT employees!

I agree, ya get what ya pay for!

[nytimez]

People are certainly entitled to at least offer tips to employees not working in a "tipped" position including housekeepers and front desk clerks. They're not entitled to attack those posters/guests who limit their tips to CMs working in "tipped" positions.

I certainly agree there.

Not that this would happen at Disney, but in a lot of places I've traveled (other countries) a hotel tip is a silent bribe to keep people from stealing your stuff (and it doesn't always work). So I'm kind of in the habit.


I agree with the previous posters. Employees agreed to work at that pay scale. The question is if pay scale is resulting in higher turnover and poor service.

I agree here too. People signed up for it, they know what they're getting. However, when a company becomes as big as Disney, they can to a certain extent set the standard -- giving people fewer opportunities to seek better-paying jobs elsewhere (and many of those places also follow the "leader" when setting their own standards).

Also, we all agree we love Disney parks and the experience. Most of us do anyway. And many of us have had a few rotten experience here or there, and I think some of it could be avoided if more money was spent to attract a better quality of employee in some positions.

[skier_pete]

Here's my 2 cents:

Disney wages: Yes, the wage is barely above minimum wage, but the wage IS about the industry standard. Should Disney probably pay its employees above Industry standard...you could argue yes. But (1) you can pay people buckets of money and it doesn't make them good employees...I work in a union shop where people with little education make $50K base pay and into 6 figures with overtime...it doesn't stop them from griping and moaning about their jobs every chance they get...and from some of them being lousy workers...(2) if you raise everyone's pay significantly larger - prices rise, making it more expensive for everyone and the basis of a living wage goes up, so MAYBE you could argue that wages at Disney should be 10 % more than they are now, but even that wouldn't bring it above a low-paying job.

Employee treatment by the Company: I have no doubt that employees are treated worse at WDW now more than 10 years ago. This is standard across big business right now...treat employees with little regard for how it affects moral or productivity. Bad mistake IMO, but I am not going to these business schools that must be training management that staff moral is not important. My belief is that you should treat your employees very well, not necessarily via monetary compensation, but if you make employees like working at your company...you can then afford to NOT be the top wage payer...for example.

Tipping: While I'm not going to Tip every person I see...certain staff that are traditionally tipped (baggage people / housekeeping) I am going to tip and recommend anyone else to tip them. We stay value / mod and I typically tip $2-3 per night. Maybe not a lot, but I figure if everyone did that, these ladies would have a pretty good wage. Again, IMO if you are staying at a $200-400 a night room and use ANY excuse to decide that someone making $8.50 / hour doesn't rate being tipped, whether it's "I can't afford it" or "They're not a tipped position." you are without a doubt a rat-******* scumbag. Most of those people will NEVER be able to afford the vacation that you are currently enjoying...if you can't chip in a couple of bucks a day...well...I have no other words for you.

[Lewisc]

use ANY excuse to decide that someone making $8.50 / hour doesn't rate being tipped, whether it's "I can't afford it" or "They're not a tipped position." you are without a doubt a rat-******* scumbag. Most of those people will NEVER be able to afford the vacation that you are currently enjoying...if you can't chip in a couple of bucks a day...well...I have no other words for you.

Wow--That borders on a personal attack. I won't report it. I understand your post is based on ignorance not malice.

A "tipped" position has legal significance. An employer is allowed to pay a "tipped" employee a lower salary (sometimes lower the minimum wage). There are rules. Disney has decided not to categorize housekeeping as a tipped position.

Your comment is applicable to people who decide not to tip an employee in a "tipped" position such as a waiter.
You're out of line with respect to housekeeping. Disney has made it clear housekeeping is not a service for which guests are expected to tip for service.

There are some posters who said housekeepers are suppose to refuse tips if offered. I'm not sure if that's the policy.

Most of the CMs who serve us aren't paid a living wage. That includes housekeeping. It also includes the CM who serve us in a CS restaurant. It includes the CMs who clean the parks and public areas of the hotels. It probably includes the front desk clerk who checks us in. It probably includes the CMs who assist in the portrayal of various characters. There are numerous employees, in non tipped positions that might be worthy of a tip. No reason to single out housekeeping.

How dare you insult guests who follow Disney guidelines regarding tipping and not Pete's guidelines.:confused3 You don't decide pay scale. You don't get to decide which positions are "tipped". You certainly don't get to insult guests who don't follow a policy you made up.

Disney made the decision not to consider housekeeping a tipped position.It's that simple.

I'm not sure if the hotels in California have the same policy. My point is limited to the Disney run hotels in the Orlando area.

[DizneeNutt]

Don't forget all the College Program kids making minimum wage! My daughter was one last year and took home about $200 a week.

[skier_pete]

Your comment is applicable to people who decide not to tip an employee in a "tipped" position such as a waiter.
You're out of line with respect to housekeeping. Disney has made it clear housekeeping is not a service for which guests are expected to tip for service.

There are some posters who said housekeepers are suppose to refuse tips if offered. I'm not sure if that's the policy.

First off it is not ignorance so perhaps it is malice (though personal it is not). I do understand the distinction in what Disney calls it, and I don't think that should make one inch of difference....a CM at Crystal Palace makes $3.50 an hour wage yet takes home $70- $100 thousand a year, thanks to tipping. A housekeeper at the Grand Floridian takes home about $18,000 a year in their non-tipped position (if no-one tips them). Disney DOES allow housekeeping personnel to accept tips, I know this as fact. Many positions are NOT allowed (guest services, transportation, ME), but this one is.

If I am someone that can afford a $5000-$10000 a week vacations at a Deluxe resort (which, I personally can't) and I think someone that makes $18,000 a year doesn't deserve a tip working a job that is normally considerd a tipped position throughout the industry, because corporate Disney says they don't? These same employees that make towel animals on their free time or do things like this below (in our room window last trip) to give pleasure to guests above and beyond their jobs?

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n147/skier_pete/Disney%20April%202010/DSCN3766.jpg

I apologize if you think my words are too harsh or they are a personal attack (personal attacks are directed at specific person or persons, which I was not intending at anyone specifically). I did not direct my comments at any individual. Anyone can tip or not, that is their choice, but I am also allowed to think poorly of folks who clearly can afford to but don't using semantics as their reason.

I also apologize to all those reading this thread, as I should know enough to hold my electronic tongue else turn this thread into something its not supposed to be. I will stay out of this thread from now on, as I have stated my case twice now and have nothing further to add.

[Lewisc]

First off it is not ignorance so perhaps it is malice (though personal it is not). I do understand the distinction in what Disney calls it, and I don't think that should make one inch of difference....a CM at Crystal Palace makes $3.50 an hour wage yet takes home $70- $100 thousand a year, thanks to tipping. A housekeeper at the Grand Floridian takes home about $18,000 a year in their non-tipped position (if no-one tips them). Disney DOES allow housekeeping personnel to accept tips, I know this as fact. Many positions are NOT allowed (guest services, transportation, ME), but this one is.

If I am someone that can afford a $5000-$10000 a week vacations at a Deluxe resort (which, I personally can't) and I think someone that makes $18,000 a year doesn't deserve a tip working a job that is normally considerd a tipped position throughout the industry, because corporate Disney says they don't? These same employees that make towel animals on their free time or do things like this below (in our room window last trip) to give pleasure to guests above and beyond their jobs?


I apologize if you think my words are too harsh or they are a personal attack (personal attacks are directed at specific person or persons, which I was not intending at anyone specifically). I did not direct my comments at any individual. Anyone can tip or not, that is their choice, but I am also allowed to think poorly of folks who clearly can afford to but don't using semantics as their reason.

I also apologize to all those reading this thread, as I should know enough to hold my electronic tongue else turn this thread into something its not supposed to be. I will stay out of this thread from now on, as I have stated my case twice now and have nothing further to add.

It's not semantics. Disney doesn't consider housekeeping tipped position. There isn't any reason why a guest has to tip housekeeping. It's rude to attack a person who doesn't follow a policy that you made up. It's beyond rude to attack people who don't follow your rules considering the fact that you know your opinion doesn't coincide with the tipping policy Disney communicates with guests.

You were responding to my post, only logical I'd interpret that as a personal attack.

Disney doesn't follow industry custom in many area. CMs who check us in aren't suppose to accept tips. Tipping those employees is common in other cities. I've never stayed in concierge level but my understanding is those employees aren't suppose to accept tips. Concierge in other hotels are definitely tipped.

DME bus drivers are allowed to accept tips.

[lockedoutlogic]

That is not true. They are given to the housekeeper if they are under $25 but even then I know of instances where they were given regardless. The handbook may say something else, but this is how it has been the last 10 years. At the front desk, it is another story...tips have to be turned in - but many times the managers will just let the CM keep them. But, under no circumstances is any CM - whether tipped or otherwise allowed to solicit tips.

You said it yourself..."it might not be in the handbook"

the rejection of tips is in the company policies unless in a specific job classification.

Housekeepers get tipped all the time...and i have no problem with it. But disney's official policy is that they should not accept them.

the official policy is no tips...the unofficial is different. i'm not disagreeing here.

but it is difficult when people talk about wages or tipping guidelines...because disney's policies are - in many ways - against common sense or reality.

[lockedoutlogic]

Don't forget all the College Program kids making minimum wage! My daughter was one last year and took home about $200 a week.

Not for nothing....but the college program is a sham...always has been.

In few cases is it anything close to "internship"-type work and they pay them nothing with heavy federal subsidies.

And then they put these 18-25 (with international programs) into outsourced party compounds and deduct rent from them. And they tend to end up being introduced to a 3 month party that often looks like an episode of girls gone wild.

Most "alumni" won't admit to it....but that is EXACTLY what it is. Kinda a vacation...which is fine as long as everybody knows that and accepts no illusions.

[faneuil]

Not for nothing....but the college program is a sham...always has been.


I call it the slave labor program. I talk to a lot of CPers every trip, and they're all the same, exhausted and ready to go home.

I don't tip mousekeeping. Why? Because they do very little for me. I make my own bed. I reuse towels. I bring my own plates and cups, so there's nothing to replenish or clean. About the only thing they do is empty my trash, and I even have that bundled and ready to go for them. I make their lives as easy as possible, because I know how some guests are.

[LisaxMarie]

Ah, wow. But I heard Disney is one of the top happiest employees..At least they love their jobs.

[skiingfast]

No offense to anyone on the College Program, cuz there are some great kids out there, but you cant expect excellent service with a staff who keeps turning over every 6 months!

And Disney is pushing for even more College kids and less FT employees!

I agree, ya get what ya pay for!

I worked at a place that had a 90% seasonal work force. Winter and Summer. The problem was especially pronounced in winter. You get your new emplyees, train them into the holidays by the time the rush is done your are almost finished with the training periods. Then you keep them hanging on for the rest of the season.

This left months open where the trained employees have to find another job and aren't likely to need a job when we started the next season. The idea came up to get foreign students to work there. From the southern hemisphere in the winter, northern in the summer. When they weren't at school. Those employees since they were going back to school were much more likely to come back the next year, stalling the training problems.

Full time employees could solve the problem but the company couldn't pay them the whole year.

Disney has seasons too. CPs are a way to manage thier employment issues as well.

[ConcKahuna]

I worked for the mouse for nearly 11 years. When I left the company, I was working resort operations/club level concierge and making $12.85 an hour.

And remember, that's with almost 11 years of company time (Disney wages are only based off of job classification and company time). Because i was in Concierge, I got paid more than regular front desk CMs, and they get paid quite a bit more than the folks in the parks.

So remember that when you get on the next attraction. The folks who are responsible for your safety make next to nothing ;)

[nytimez]

Ah, wow. But I heard Disney is one of the top happiest employees..At least they love their jobs.

Where did you hear that? They didn't make the Fortune Top 100 -- I don't think they ever have.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/bestcompanies/2010/full_list/

[skiingfast]

Where did you hear that? They didn't make the Fortune Top 100 -- I don't think they ever have.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/bestcompanies/2010/full_list/


Disney looks to have plenty to be happy about. As far as the CP's out of the thousands of places they could have worked maybe they are in fact lucky.


http://corporate.disney.go.com/careers/index.html

[Oglet]

because disney's policies are - in many ways - against common sense or reality.

Someone give this poster a medal..... :cheer2:

[ConcKahuna]

Ah, wow. But I heard Disney is one of the top happiest employees..At least they love their jobs.

It's not that they all love their job, it's that Disney can and will fire you if you say you don't like your job to a guest LOL

[chrisw127]

I can't imagine staying at a hotel and not tipping housekeeping. That, and our ability to accessorize, is what separates us from the animals, to paraphrase Steel Magnolias.;)

[chrisw127]

It's not that they all love their job, it's that Disney can and will fire you if you say you don't like your job to a guest LOL

Hey, Conck!

[Donut23]

It's not semantics. Disney doesn't consider housekeeping tipped position. There isn't any reason why a guest has to tip housekeeping. It's rude to attack a person who doesn't follow a policy that you made up. It's beyond rude to attack people who don't follow your rules considering the fact that you know your opinion doesn't coincide with the tipping policy Disney communicates with guests.

You were responding to my post, only logical I'd interpret that as a personal attack.

Disney doesn't follow industry custom in many area. CMs who check us in aren't suppose to accept tips. Tipping those employees is common in other cities. I've never stayed in concierge level but my understanding is those employees aren't suppose to accept tips. Concierge in other hotels are definitely tipped.

DME bus drivers are allowed to accept tips.



Hey, lets all play nicey-nice here.

Obviously we will not change each other's positions.



Let's gather up a couple buckets of that famed pixie dust and.......THROW it at each other!! In a nice way of course! :flower3::flower3:

[nytimez]

Let's gather up a couple buckets of that famed pixie dust and.......THROW it at each other!! In a nice way of course! :flower3::flower3:

Not so fast. How much did they pay the guy who made the pixie dust? How about the CM who sold it to you? And did you tip him? ;)

[Ryansdad0727]

I know it's not exactly the same but my teacher internship program allowed me to teach class all day for free and then to pay bills i got to go to work from 4 until usually 1 or 2 in the morning at the local Home Depot. I worked a 40-50 hours a week job while teaching for free all day for 3 months to graduate college. A girls gone wild party atmosphere while getting paid with cheap rent sounds good to me. No personal attacks here just stating that many internship programs have thier flaws. Most interns are exhausted and ready for it to be over.

[Donut23]

Not so fast. How much did they pay the guy who made the pixie dust? How about the CM who sold it to you? And did you tip him? ;)


I tipped enough for EVERYBODY!!

[dvcblt93]

Disney has seasons too. CPs are a way to manage thier employment issues as well.

There are no more seasons at Disney, its busy all the time!

CP's are a way for Diseny to pay young kids, under the pretense of an "Internship", for cheap labor, and to rake them over the coals for "rent", all of which is government subsidised.....

Nothing more, nothing less.

Like I said before..."You get what you pay for"

If anyone doubts me, hang out at the Benngians Bar on 535 one night and just observe, or better yet, ask questions! ;)

[skiingfast]

There are no more seasons at Disney, its busy all the time!

CP's are a way for Diseny to pay young kids, under the pretense of an "Internship", for cheap labor, and to rake them over the coals for "rent", all of which is government subsidised.....

Nothing more, nothing less.

Like I said before..."You get what you pay for"

If anyone doubts me, hang out at the Benngians Bar on 535 one night and just observe, or better yet, ask questions! ;)

There are seasons. You may happen to go when it is busy for your trips, but I don't for mine. Disney even confirms that there are seasons. Think about it.

Everyone at Bennigians also live in Vista Lay. So you can observe just one type of the CPs there.

[WDSearcher]

A few years ago the NYTimes had an article comparing COSTCO and WalMart. Costco pays their employees almost 3X as much as Wal Mart. COSTCO offers health insurance. As another poster pointed out WalMarts health insurance is telling most of their employees to apply for medicaid. Service is better at COSTCO.

The question is if Disney guests (who pay $$$ for tickets,rooms and food) would get the level of service they're paying for if Disney either paid more or had more employees. Many posters have commented on a reduction in the level of service.
Then again ... it doesn't cost me anything to go into WalMart and buy a case of toilet paper. I have to pay for that priviledge at COSTCO and the TP cost isn't all that much lower. So COSTCO has some additional income to balance out the higher wages. And whether service is better at COSTCO than WalMart depends greatly on which store you're in, the time of day, and what kind of service you need.

At Disney, the $$$ guests pay for tickets, rooms and food isn't just paying for a "level of service." They're paying for a great deal more than just that. Those dollars are paying for entertainment, rides, fireworks, maintenance, custodial, parades, characters, transportation, theming, upkeep, resort activities, costuming, lifeguards, housekeeping, concierge, etc. The amount of money a guest pays for their Disney vacation -- as pricey as it is -- doesn't even come close to the amount of money it costs Disney to provide that vacation.

The amount of money you are paid by your employer should have absolutely nothing to do with how well you perform your job. If I apply for a job and the company says, "We'll pay you $6 an hour" and I agree to that, I am also agreeing to perform that job to the best of my ability for that price. If the company says, "We'll pay you $60 an hour", the level of service I give should be no different than if I was making ten times less.

Bad customer service comes from those particular CMs who have decided that they don't need to do a better job because they don't get paid enough. Their failing, not Disney's. Many of the sub-standard CMs who are out there now would not be performing any better at $90/hr than they are at $9/hour.

Bad customer service is also subjective. What I think was a great CM interaction may be something you think was far below standards. The DIS is full of testimonials from people who met amazing CP or retired CMs and wonderful magical hourly CMs -- all of those people who are making the lowest wages at Disney. So, clearly, outstanding customer service happens at all pay grades. You're either a great CM or you're not, but that's up to you.

Now ... would higher hourly rates and salaries allow Disney to be more choosy in how they cast? Sure. But you still run the same risk of finding a lousy CM. Because no potential CM is going to say, in an interview, "I plan on just barely skating by in Guest Service, and I will be kind of a crappy CM." They all look GREAT in an interview. Best face, biggest smile, agreeability, enthusiasm. It's not until they get hired and start working that you really know how they will behave on stage. It's a crapshoot. More money doesn't mean better staff.

A poster in the transportation thread was staying at the POLY. Wanted to know if he should walk over the TTC and take the bus to DHS or if he should take the bus from the POLY to DHS. A poster works for the monorail. He insisted training told them there is no bus from any of the monorail resorts to DHS. No excuse for a trainer giving employees bad information. I don't know if paying more would lead to lower turnover and better service.
I think it might lead to lower turnover, but better service is still up to the person performing the service. Disney can train, pay, nurture, mentor, discipline, coddle, watch, reprimand, counsel and coach me all they want. But how I decide to perform my job is totally up to me.

:earsboy:

[WDSearcher]

Not for nothing....but the college program is a sham...always has been.

In few cases is it anything close to "internship"-type work and they pay them nothing with heavy federal subsidies.

And then they put these 18-25 (with international programs) into outsourced party compounds and deduct rent from them. And they tend to end up being introduced to a 3 month party that often looks like an episode of girls gone wild.

Most "alumni" won't admit to it....but that is EXACTLY what it is. Kinda a vacation...which is fine as long as everybody knows that and accepts no illusions.
I don't think that Disney in any way implies that the CP is an "internship." There are very specific internship and advanced internship programs at Disney, and they have very different application policies and very different requirements.

And really ... a bunch of college kids on their own, away from home for the first time? They could be working at the Vatican and it's still going to be a three month party. Disney certainly doesn't condone or design the "extracurricular" activities. But because the KIDS can't control themselves, the program is a sham?

There are plenty of CP alumni who will admit to their time on CP being one long drinking party spaced out by occasional hangovers and rare moments of sobriety. There are also plenty of CP alumni who call it the best job they ever had and the reason they were so successful after college. Go figure.

I call it the slave labor program. I talk to a lot of CPers every trip, and they're all the same, exhausted and ready to go home.
At the end of a normal work week, don't most of us feel the same?

:earsboy:

[Rupert B Puppenstein]

I don't think that Disney in any way implies that the CP is an "internship." There are very specific internship and advanced internship programs at Disney, and they have very different application policies and very different requirements.

And really ... a bunch of college kids on their own, away from home for the first time? They could be working at the Vatican and it's still going to be a three month party. Disney certainly doesn't condone or design the "extracurricular" activities. But because the KIDS can't control themselves, the program is a sham?

There are plenty of CP alumni who will admit to their time on CP being one long drinking party spaced out by occasional hangovers and rare moments of sobriety. There are also plenty of CP alumni who call it the best job they ever had and the reason they were so successful after college. Go figure.


At the end of a normal work week, don't most of us feel the same?

:earsboy:

I was in the College Program and it was not a vacation...granted, I was in the six month hospitality program which had more stringent requirements, but many CP interns (it is an internship - a paid internship if you are in the hospitality program otherwise the traditional three month program is more like a seasonal job) were kicked out of the program due to the behavior people are describing. They were incredibly strict and yes there were some interesting stories but not in the program I was part of. We worked too much to get into trouble. It could be said that the CP is very lucrative for Disney in that the pay is low, they take out the rent which amounts to a very expensive apartment when you live with five other people in most cases. It wasn't difficult to get tons of OT when I was there because we got paid such a low wage, that it made more sense to have us stay to cover shifts then have a regular CM do it. I have heard that they are very strict about OT now with CP but that is the only way I came home with money.

I looked at the experience as being a great one. Yes, I was tired but I also never got used to the humidity (I am originally from AZ and went to school there) and since I worked a lot, it was exhausting. But, I really loved what I did for the most part and just love the hospitality industry. Disney is an amazing place and although their are bad things about working anywhere, I would work for Disney again in a heartbeat. But, enjoying my job trumps making a ton of money in my book. It was because of Disney that I got the job offers that I did, that I stayed in the hospitality industry, and that I have become the biggest Disney fan (when I wasn't at the time I started CP).

I can't think of a better internship experience. Most of my friends in the industry that interned elsewhere had horrible experiences. I had so much fun and didn't drink one drop of alcohol! I am guessing most CP alumni that hated their experiences worked in quick service food...most people I knew in those areas hated their jobs.

[faneuil]

At the end of a normal work week, don't most of us feel the same?

:earsboy:

I mean ready to quit the program and go home home. Not just back to the apartment.

I hope most of us don't feel like quitting our jobs come every Friday.

I've worked all kinds of jobs - as I'm sure many folks have. Even the smallest of pay raises can significantly increase productivity.

[Lewisc]

ANY excuse to decide that someone making $8.50 / hour doesn't rate being tipped, whether it's "I can't afford it" or "They're not a tipped position." you are without a doubt a rat-******* scumbag. Most of those people will NEVER be able to afford the vacation that you are currently enjoying...if you can't chip in a couple of bucks a day...well...I have no other words for you.

I do understand the distinction in what Disney calls it, and I don't think that should make one inch of difference...

Hey, lets all play nicey-nice here.



You have a good point but you're talking to the wrong poster. The poster I had the discussion with understands Disney doesn't consider housekeeping a tipped job. He insists guests who chose to follow Disney tipping guidelines, and not his guidelines, are "rat*** scumbags".

I wouldn't even post that if a guest stiffs a waiter (without a good reason) although I would think it.

[Lewisc]

At Disney, the $$$ guests pay for tickets, rooms and food isn't just paying for a "level of service." They're paying for a great deal more than just that. Those dollars are paying for entertainment, rides, fireworks, maintenance, custodial, parades, characters, transportation, theming, upkeep, resort activities, costuming, lifeguards, housekeeping, concierge, etc. The amount of money a guest pays for their Disney vacation -- as pricey as it is -- doesn't even come close to the amount of money it costs Disney to provide that vacation.

The amount of money you are paid by your employer should have absolutely nothing to do with how well you perform your job. If I apply for a job and the company says, "We'll pay you $6 an hour" and I agree to that, I am also agreeing to perform that job to the best of my ability for that price. If the company says, "We'll pay you $60 an hour", the level of service I give should be no different than if I was making ten times less.


The theme park/resort division of Disney is profitable almost every year. Therefore the part of your post I bolded is false.

Paying higher wages may reduce turnover resulting in better service. Paying higher wages may allow you to attract better employees. Pay enough and you can hire a chef away from another restaurant or a hotel manager from another hotel.

I'm not saying paying the very entry level jobs (people checking tickets) will have an impact.

GF is a 3* or 4* hotel, in part, because the staff to guest ratio isn't high enough to produce the level of service that's provided in hotel like the Four Seasons. Disney realized they can charge 5* prices at a hotel that's themed to resemble a 5* hotel without actually providing the services necessary to earn a 5* rating.

I'm deviating from this thread. The question isn't just the pay scale but also how many CMs Disney employs.

[nytimez]

The amount of money a guest pays for their Disney vacation -- as pricey as it is -- doesn't even come close to the amount of money it costs Disney to provide that vacation.


For real? Who is paying for my vacation, then?

[WDSearcher]

For real? Who is paying for my vacation, then?
The people who are buying the stock, along with sponsors and other business participants.

:earsboy:

[WDSearcher]

The theme park/resort division of Disney is profitable almost every year. Therefore the part of your post I bolded is false.


No it's not. I never said the division wasn't profitable, simply that all of the income for the theme park / resort division does not originate with the money Guests pay to be at WDW. What Guests pay in via ticket prices, resort rates, food costs, etc. does not equal what Disney pays out in salaries, benefits, upkeep, maintenance, development, etc. Money from stockholders, money from other divisions who are developing product in tandem with the theme parks, money from sponsors -- all of these funds supplement what Guests pay. The money that Siemans pays to sponsor IllumiNations, for example, helps offset what it costs Disney to staff and maintain that show, which means that the Guests don't have to pay for that.

If the parks had to exist and be profitable ONLY on what Guests pay to be there, it'd be a whole lot more expensive.

:earsboy:

[nytimez]

The people who are buying the stock, along with sponsors and other business participants.

:earsboy:

I can believe that the company earns extra money by selling sponsorships to attractions, making more attractions possible/profitable.

But I absolutely cannot believe that shareholders are subsidizing vacations.

[WDSearcher]

I mean ready to quit the program and go home home. Not just back to the apartment.

I hope most of us don't feel like quitting our jobs come every Friday.
I know what you meant. It was mostly a facetious comment. :goodvibes But the point was that hey ... welcome to the real world. My parents were often exhausted at the end of the day and I could never figure out why. Then I had my first summer job, where I worked hard all day for normal "student / summer job" pay, and I understood. I had a lot more respect for "the working man" after that. And I spent money differently after that too, because I knew how hard it was to earn.

An "internship" or a "college program" type job is supposed to help teach you what it's like to work, day in and day out, at a real job -- what it's like to go to WORK every day. It's not supposed to be fun and smiles and laughter all day. Part of the experience is understanding within yourself how to balance the work and play to get through, and part of it is making kids understand why their college education is so important. Because without one (and these days, even WITH one), working the line at a fast food restaurant may be where your career options end.

I would imagine that most of the CP kids who feel like quitting the program and going home either had unrealistic expectations of what it was like to have "a Disney job" (ie, they'd be playing in the park all the time and not really having to work all that hard) or they are not balancing fun time and work time very well (of COURSE you're going to be exhausted and want to pack it in if every weekend or day off or evening is spent getting drunk and staying out late partying and then you have to get up at 6am to make it to your shift on time -- you have to figure out that balance).

I've worked all kinds of jobs - as I'm sure many folks have. Even the smallest of pay raises can significantly increase productivity.
But then how long after that pay raise does productivity again fall until the NEXT pay raise? If you're not giving your best at pay rate X, why should I raise your pay to pay rate Y? In the various jobs I've had, you get more pay because you've worked hard and earned it. You don't get more money in the hopes that if I give you more, you'll earn it after the fact.

:earsboy:

[WDSearcher]

I can believe that the company earns extra money by selling sponsorships to attractions, making more attractions possible/profitable.

But I absolutely cannot believe that shareholders are subsidizing vacations.
Not directly, no. It's not as if I, as a shareholder, am giving Disney $20 to help offset costs every time you, as a guest, walk into the park. But why do you think companies sell stock? Because it brings in cash. Companies sell stock so that people will give them money.

When I bought my Disney stock, I paid them however much (I think it was around $21 at the time of my first stock purchase) and got nothing at the time except an expectation of a profitable sale if and when I decided to sell it. But the point is that I handed them a bunch of money. Money that they then used to maintain, expand and improve their business. If stockholders weren't purchasing Disney stock, that money would have to come from somewhere else. And that "somewhere else" is from higher prices at the parks.

:earsboy:

[faneuil]

But then how long after that pay raise does productivity again fall until the NEXT pay raise? If you're not giving your best at pay rate X, why should I raise your pay to pay rate Y? In the various jobs I've had, you get more pay because you've worked hard and earned it. You don't get more money in the hopes that if I give you more, you'll earn it after the fact.

:earsboy:

I definitely see what you're saying and I agree. I didn't make my point about raises clear.

I haven't gotten a pay raise in three years. I work for the state, and the state has mandated no raises. I was also furloughed 6 days last fiscal year. Now, I'm really happy to have a job and take home a paycheck. But. 95% of us in my workplace have slowed down and said enough's enough. Give us just 1%. Or, don't raise our medical insurance 10%. Or, don't furlough us. My take home pay has gone down, because my salary isn't keeping up with inflation. That's where I was really going with the raise thing.

I agree that pay raises shouldn't be a given, but should be earned. For those people that don't see them for years, but are giving their job their all, it hurts morale and cuts productivity.

If a Disney employee has been in a job and given their all for several years and hasn't seen raise, I can understand why they begin to "lose" the magic.

[WDSearcher]

I definitely see what you're saying and I agree. I didn't make my point about raises clear.

I haven't gotten a pay raise in three years. I work for the state, and the state has mandated no raises. I was also furloughed 6 days last fiscal year. Now, I'm really happy to have a job and take home a paycheck. But. 95% of us in my workplace have slowed down and said enough's enough. Give us just 1%. Or, don't raise our medical insurance 10%. Or, don't furlough us. My take home pay has gone down, because my salary isn't keeping up with inflation. That's where I was really going with the raise thing.

I agree that pay raises shouldn't be a given, but should be earned. For those people that don't see them for years, but are giving their job their all, it hurts morale and cuts productivity.
Ah ... yes. Totally makes sense from that standpoint. Sucks for you, but makes sense!

If a Disney employee has been in a job and given their all for several years and hasn't seen raise, I can understand why they begin to "lose" the magic.
Honestly? That's virtually impossible unless the Disney CM in question isn't keeping track of their paychecks and simply doesn't care. I can't remember a year when hourlies didn't get at least a basic cost-of-living increase. I can remember times when the salaried CMs were told that raises would be delayed due to cash flow needs, but never a time when there were no annual bump-ups. Execs have, from time to time, forgone raises -- the last time merits were handed out, no one on an executive level got one so that everyone on the middle-manager level could. Those positions covered by union contracts get raises every year no matter what. Maybe not huge raises, but they get what they agreed on during negotiations.

:earsboy:

[nytimez]

Not directly, no. It's not as if I, as a shareholder, am giving Disney $20 to help offset costs every time you, as a guest, walk into the park. But why do you think companies sell stock? Because it brings in cash. Companies sell stock so that people will give them money.

When I bought my Disney stock, I paid them however much (I think it was around $21 at the time of my first stock purchase) and got nothing at the time except an expectation of a profitable sale if and when I decided to sell it. But the point is that I handed them a bunch of money. Money that they then used to maintain, expand and improve their business. If stockholders weren't purchasing Disney stock, that money would have to come from somewhere else. And that "somewhere else" is from higher prices at the parks.

:earsboy:

That sounds like a pyramid scheme. When you give Disney $20, it goes into the company funding something that leads to the creation of more cash -- selling vacations at a loss and then using investment money to cover the difference sounds borderline illegal.

[skiingfast]

Not directly, no. It's not as if I, as a shareholder, am giving Disney $20 to help offset costs every time you, as a guest, walk into the park. But why do you think companies sell stock? Because it brings in cash. Companies sell stock so that people will give them money.

When I bought my Disney stock, I paid them however much (I think it was around $21 at the time of my first stock purchase) and got nothing at the time except an expectation of a profitable sale if and when I decided to sell it. But the point is that I handed them a bunch of money. Money that they then used to maintain, expand and improve their business. If stockholders weren't purchasing Disney stock, that money would have to come from somewhere else. And that "somewhere else" is from higher prices at the parks.

:earsboy:

I curious when this was. Simply buying stock in a company does not finance the company unless it is a new issue of shares. Does anyone know when they have needed to issue stock?

[nytimez]

I curious when this was. Simply buying stock in a company does not finance the company unless it is a new issue of shares. Does anyone know when they have needed to issue stock?

The closest example I can think is when they broke out Go.com as a separate stock offering, which promptly tanked and was ultimately bought back by the company (Go shares were exchanged for Disney shares) -- at a loss for anyone who invested in this mistaken idea of a Web "portal."

[faneuil]

Honestly? That's virtually impossible unless the Disney CM in question isn't keeping track of their paychecks and simply doesn't care. I can't remember a year when hourlies didn't get at least a basic cost-of-living increase.

:earsboy:

I wasn't aware that Disney did cost of living raises. That changes everything in my eyes. Since my workplace doesn't give cost of living raises, I assumed it was a given practice in a lot of industries. I'm suffering from the "we're taking more, while expecting more" philosophy.

My perfect world has two raise scales. 1. Cost of living, which everyone gets. 2. Merit raises based on performance.

It sounds like Disney still upholds that practice. Which is a very good thing.

[nytimez]

I wasn't aware that Disney did cost of living raises. That changes everything in my eyes. Since my workplace doesn't give cost of living raises, I assumed it was a given practice in a lot of industries. I'm suffering from the "we're taking more, while expecting more" philosophy.

My perfect world has two raise scales. 1. Cost of living, which everyone gets. 2. Merit raises based on performance.

It sounds like Disney still upholds that practice. Which is a very good thing.

I think it depends on union/non-union, hourly/salary, etc. The company doesn't give a cost-of-living raise to everyone.

[Karlzmom]

I don't think anyone would expect an entry level castmember to earn $80,000...but a living wage would be nice, don't you think?

I'd like to see ANY of us here to try to live on $19,000 a year!!! That's a BIG difference from $80,000!

However, with basic supply and demand there is no set "living wage." More money paid equals more demand on the limited goods and services available and increased price of production to offset the increased wages paid...so prices rise until again the bottom tier exists that has limited access to the good things in life....lather, rinse and repeat.

It would be interesting to have a real number cruncher play with the numbers at various salaries to see what $$ earned gets you the most bang for your buck when the tax ramifications and available social service benefits are factored in. I somehow suspect there are wages that at first blush seem low that have you further ahead in "lifestyle" than another wage that seems higher...or put another way, when you add in what a $19K employee can get from programs and factor in that they are not really paying taxes they are probably further ahead in the rat race than we think.....particularly for the level of skills/education investments necessary to qualify for the job.

[Karlzmom]

I don't think anyone making $8.90 an hour is buying a $200,000 house. And state income tax doesn't enter the picture at that level -- as a previous poster pointed out, the Disney average would work out to just above $18,000 a year on a full-time basis. With the standard exemptions, they aren't paying much in taxes at all (if anything). Most states base income taxes on federal taxes, and nearly half of all U.S. households pain no income tax last year (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1) (typically a family of four, including two children, who earn $50,000 a year or less -- or more than the value of two full-time Disney jobs).

isn't that part of why we have the mortage mess...$8.90/hr people "buying" $200K houses with no money down and an interest only timebomb? :lmao: In CA the $18K employee would have to pay State Income taxes...so they are farther ahead in FL....

[ConcKahuna]

Hey, Conck!

Heya!


Honestly? That's virtually impossible unless the Disney CM in question isn't keeping track of their paychecks and simply doesn't care. I can't remember a year when hourlies didn't get at least a basic cost-of-living increase. I can remember times when the salaried CMs were told that raises would be delayed due to cash flow needs, but never a time when there were no annual bump-ups. Execs have, from time to time, forgone raises -- the last time merits were handed out, no one on an executive level got one so that everyone on the middle-manager level could. Those positions covered by union contracts get raises every year no matter what. Maybe not huge raises, but they get what they agreed on during negotiations.

:earsboy:


The issue is that raises do not cover the increased cost of health insurance.

Since I was under a "newer" contract, I got 4% a year. It worked out to about $0.50 an hour last year, or $20 a week.

The cost of covering myself and my partner under the HMO went from $28 a week to $78 a week.

[skiingfast]

However, with basic supply and demand there is no set "living wage." More money paid equals more demand on the limited goods and services available and increased price of production to offset the increased wages paid...so prices rise until again the bottom tier exists that has limited access to the good things in life....lather, rinse and repeat.


Going with Supply and Demand. It seems that Disney is very fair at setting its wages. If they weren't they would not be able to fill the positions that they need. From my understanding you don't just walk in to casting and leave with a new job. Likewise with the college program many apply some are accepted.

[Tessaluvstigger]

Just wanted to go back to the topic that a PP had raised that the CP is basically a sham or something like that...sorry I didn't go back a couple pages to give the exact quote! I did my CP in merchandise in Fall '04 and it is an experience I wouldn't trade for anything!!! HOWEVER, there are both good and bad and I knew that going into the experience. I am a Disney nut and had ALWAYS dreamed of living and working at Disney so this was my way of doing that for a semester. The CP is what you put into it. For some it is a semester long party at either Vista Way or Chatham Square (the apartment complexes) for others like myself it is a lot of hard work and AMAZING opportunities for networking. In addition to working A LOT and I mean A LOT of hours (I was there during F&W festival, Thanksgiving, and Christmas) I also took 2 classes through Disney University that I got credit at my home university for. I went to a ton of networking opportunities that was provided to CPrs. I met so many corporate elites from TWDC. Thanks to all of that I came out with 12 hours of credit so I still graduated on time, a glowing letter of recommendation for graduate school from a high level Disney Executive that I met at a seminar and kept in contact with throughout my program, and lots of wonderful memories of guest interaction. The first thing I'm always asked about on my resume is almost always my Disney CP!

Now having said all that...yes I was overworked and paid minimum wage. Basically working 50-60 hours a week, taking two classes a week, attending seminars, and trying to still have a life. It was a lot of work...I was Mickey's little slave....:rotfl2::rotfl2: AND I STILL WOULDN'T TRADE IT FOR ANYTHING

[lockedoutlogic]

isn't that part of why we have the mortage mess...$8.90/hr people "buying" $200K houses with no money down and an interest only timebomb? :lmao: In CA the $18K employee would have to pay State Income taxes...so they are farther ahead in FL....

in short...yes...orlando is one of the poster children for why "owning" is not anywhere close to better than renting in alot of places...

i can think of no better lambs to the slaughter of the real estate robber barons than disney employees in central florida...

that's not to say that those that take out loans are guiltless...but the institutional get rich scheme on realty in this country was and still is inexcusable...

[WDSearcher]

That sounds like a pyramid scheme. When you give Disney $20, it goes into the company funding something that leads to the creation of more cash -- selling vacations at a loss and then using investment money to cover the difference sounds borderline illegal.

They are not "selling vacations at a loss". :rolleyes2 For goodness sake ... welcome to the world of business.

Why do you think businesses sell stock? They do it to bring in money so that they have some operating funds. If not, then consumers would have to provide 100% of the cost of something, and none of us would be able to afford anything.

Let's make believe that one person's WDW ticket was equal to the daily pay of one WDW CM. (It's not, but for sake of example, let's go with that.) There are 55,000 CMs at WDW. So the first 55,000 people through the gate on any given day are doing nothing more than paying the salaries of the CMs. If you look at an average of 120,000 guest per day (WDW's annual estimated attendance of 47,000,000 divided by 365), that means that just under half of the money coming in every single day goes to simply paying cast their hourly pay rate. Doesn't include benefits or costuming or any other CM costs. And, really ... a good percentage of the people walking in the gate every day are using APs or comp tickets or the 10th day on a 10-day pass, which costs about $3, so it's not really equitable, but let's imagine that it is.

So ... you've paid the cast and you have 65% of your gate income left. That has to cover everything else -- ride and show development, maintenance, utilities, transportation, lighting, audio, safety, costumes, parade floats, attraction parts, equipment, decorations, water, fireworks, etc. Obviously, what's coming in the gate is not covering 100% of what it takes to offer the Guest the vacation they get when they walk through the gate.

The company says, "Gee ... how are we going to cover the rest of that cost?" They could double the cost of tickets, but that's not likely to go over well. So they find sponsors for things they can find sponsors for, and they get the rest of the money by issuing stock. People like me purchase stock and provide Disney with an influx of cash to continue building and operating the parks. Then, if Disney has done their job properly and used my money well, in a few years when I need some funds, I sell that stock for more money than I paid for it, thereby netting myself a profit. Somebody else buys the stock I just sold, thereby sending more money into Disney to use as above. Lather / rinse / repeat.

Basically, I've loaned WDW $21 per share of the stock that I've purchased, and when I sell it later for $34 a share, I make a little money for having done that. Not exactly a pyramid scheme.

Welcome to capitalism and the stock market.

:earsboy:

[nytimez]

They are not "selling vacations at a loss". :rolleyes2 For goodness sake ... welcome to the world of business.

Why do you think businesses sell stock? They do it to bring in money so that they have some operating funds. If not, then consumers would have to provide 100% of the cost of something, and none of us would be able to afford anything.

Let's make believe that one person's WDW ticket was equal to the daily pay of one WDW CM. (It's not, but for sake of example, let's go with that.) There are 55,000 CMs at WDW. So the first 55,000 people through the gate on any given day are doing nothing more than paying the salaries of the CMs. If you look at an average of 120,000 guest per day (WDW's annual estimated attendance of 47,000,000 divided by 365), that means that just under half of the money coming in every single day goes to simply paying cast their hourly pay rate. Doesn't include benefits or costuming or any other CM costs. And, really ... a good percentage of the people walking in the gate every day are using APs or comp tickets or the 10th day on a 10-day pass, which costs about $3, so it's not really equitable, but let's imagine that it is.

So ... you've paid the cast and you have 65% of your gate income left. That has to cover everything else -- ride and show development, maintenance, utilities, transportation, lighting, audio, safety, costumes, parade floats, attraction parts, equipment, decorations, water, fireworks, etc. Obviously, what's coming in the gate is not covering 100% of what it takes to offer the Guest the vacation they get when they walk through the gate.

The company says, "Gee ... how are we going to cover the rest of that cost?" They could double the cost of tickets, but that's not likely to go over well. So they find sponsors for things they can find sponsors for, and they get the rest of the money by issuing stock. People like me purchase stock and provide Disney with an influx of cash to continue building and operating the parks. Then, if Disney has done their job properly and used my money well, in a few years when I need some funds, I sell that stock for more money than I paid for it, thereby netting myself a profit. Somebody else buys the stock I just sold, thereby sending more money into Disney to use as above. Lather / rinse / repeat.

Basically, I've loaned WDW $21 per share of the stock that I've purchased, and when I sell it later for $34 a share, I make a little money for having done that. Not exactly a pyramid scheme.

Welcome to capitalism and the stock market.

:earsboy:

1) A purchase of stock is not a loan. That's a bond.
2) Unless you got in on Disney's IPO or bought stock the last time Disney issued new stock -- which hasn't happened in a long time -- you didn't give a penny to the company when you bought you share. You bought your stock from someone else or (more likely) an institutional investor.
3) When you later sell it at $34, the company didn't give you any money. Whoever buys your stock does, unless the company is buying back its own stock. And your sale of the stock doesn't "give" Disney anything. You are transferring your stake of ownership to someone else. That's it.
4) Your example is full of guesses and estimates and doesn't take into account all the other ways Disney profits from a guest's entry into the park: Meals, souvenirs, tours, classes, and other experiences. Not to mention hotels and all the ways people spend money there -- that all counts.
5) Find me some hard numbers that proves your point and I'll happily believe you. But don't come up with a bunch of guesses and "for the sake of examples" and so forth and declare it to be fact. It's not. I suggest you start with Disney's annual reports -- where it's pretty clear theme parks earn a healthy return on investment. No shareholder money needed.

[ConcKahuna]

They are not "selling vacations at a loss". :rolleyes2 For goodness sake ... welcome to the world of business.

Not to mention the upkeep costs on hotel rooms at WDW (including all related labor) is about $35 per room (it's about $60 for club level). As long as they are getting at least that much per room, the rest is all profit.

[nytimez]

Not to mention the upkeep costs on hotel rooms at WDW (including all related labor) is about $35 per room (it's about $60 for club level). As long as they are getting at least that much per room, the rest is all profit.

Right. That's my point -- the theme parks (including hotels) earn enough money on their own -- and plenty of it. The other poster seems to think these things cost Disney more than what they charge guests, and then the company makes up for that loss through stock issues.

[pilferk]

Anyone else see this story at MSNBC? Ouch!

The 8 lowest-paying jobs in America
(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38168029/ns/business-careers/)

"...but in Florida, land of Disney World, the wage is $8.90 an hour. Alas, Mickey Mouse isn’t spreading the joy to workers’ pockets. Wages there for these jobs are below the national mean hourly wage of $9.35 an hour."

I've always realized that the CMs don't make much money for what they do -- but this makes me appreciate them even more. Thanks to all the CMs who manage to spread the magic even if you're struggling to make ends meet yourself.

Florida, in general, tends to pay wages that are less than the national average, almost across the board.

Part of that is because the cost of living is so much less (well, chicken/egg), and some of it is because of the way Florida state taxes are structured. There is NO personal income tax...

For example, if someone were making 9.35 an hour in CT, full time, their tax rate would be about 5%. Functionally, they're making around $8.88 per hour.

Pretty much right in line with what Disney is paying, hourly.

[A Mickeyfan]

Florida, in general, tends to pay wages that are less than the national average, almost across the board.

Part of that is because the cost of living is so much less (well, chicken/egg), and some of it is because of the way Florida state taxes are structured. There is NO personal income tax...

For example, if someone were making 9.35 an hour in CT, full time, their tax rate would be about 5%. Functionally, they're making around $8.88 per hour.

Pretty much right in line with what Disney is paying, hourly.
only thing cheaper here is our real estate taxes & we do not pay State taxes. However, the average cost of living is pretty close to other areas. I am from NY and have seen both sides. Fl pays on the whole pays very poorly. It doesn't balance out as you think..

[nytimez]

For example, if someone were making 9.35 an hour in CT, full time, their tax rate would be about 5%. Functionally, they're making around $8.88 per hour.

Pretty much right in line with what Disney is paying, hourly.

That's true in principle but not in practice. Someone earning a Disney wage is making barely $18K per year. In most states, including Connecticut, the personal income tax would be little to nothing at that salary. In fact, if you just take the standard deduction and no other deductions (unlikely), your annual personal income tax in Connecticut would be less than $20 in total, not 5 percent.

Here are the current tax tables for Connecticut:
http://www.ct.gov/drs/lib/drs/forms/2009forms/incometax/2009incometaxtables.pdf

The five percent rate doesn't kick in until well over $100,000 of adjusting income for a single taxpayer.

In reality, with regular deductions, most people in most states won't pay any personal income tax at $8.90 an hour -- although those taxes might be collected and then refunded, depending on how you have your wages set up.

[pilferk]

only thing cheaper here is our real estate taxes & we do not pay State taxes. However, the average cost of living is pretty close to other areas. I am from NY and have seen both sides. Fl pays on the whole pays very poorly. It doesn't balance out as you think..

Not for nothing, but:

http://www.missourieconomy.org/indicators/cost_of_living/index.stm

NY and CT are amongst the highest COL state's in the union. CT is only bested by Alaska, Hawaii, DC and California.

It might not SEEM like it balances out, "on the ground", but the disparity is actually more than you're giving it credit for. We pay more for "stuff" (gas, commodities), we pay for heat and other incidentals you don't have to pay for, etc. We pay income taxes AND high property taxes (because property values are, in general, higher). We have lousy public transportation, even in our more urban areas. And almost everyone is a commuter.

Florida might not be TN or KY...it's pretty much right in the middle of the pack in terms of COL index this past quarter....but it's not NY or CT, either.

Given you're in the middle of the COL ranking, and looking at the "tax adjusted" wage....it seems pretty equivalent, to me.

That's not to say we all wouldn't like to see everyone paid a "living wage"....I think theoretically, everyone would. But the problem is...these jobs are low paying jobs for a reason. If you paid everyone a "living wage", the after effect would be that fewer people would be making a living, because costs would increase, and so then would prices.

[faneuil]

The cost of living in Florida is lower than that of CT.

But, it is about the same as lots of other major metro areas.
I need to earn about $41,000 (before tax) in Atlanta, or Orlando - if I want a small, safe apartment, food, medical insurance, and a car.

While you don't pay for heat as much in Florida, you're paying through the roof for air conditioning, practically 12 months a year. Utilities in general are a killer - anywhere in the country.

I don't know of anyone, anywhere, that can live on $18,000 (before tax) a year all by themselves.

[pilferk]

That's true in principle but not in practice. Someone earning a Disney wage is making barely $18K per year. In most states, including Connecticut, the personal income tax would be little to nothing at that salary. In fact, if you just take the standard deduction and no other deductions (unlikely), your annual personal income tax in Connecticut would be less than $20 in total, not 5 percent.

Here are the current tax tables for Connecticut:
http://www.ct.gov/drs/lib/drs/forms/2009forms/incometax/2009incometaxtables.pdf

The five percent rate doesn't kick in until well over $100,000 of adjusting income for a single taxpayer.

In reality, with regular deductions, most people in most states won't pay any personal income tax at $8.90 an hour -- although those taxes might be collected and then refunded, depending on how you have your wages set up.

The problem with your logic is you're assuming deductions and total household income, when you really can't do that.

You don't know if the wage in question is a 2nd wage in the household, a supplemental wage, the wage of a college student still living at home, etc. You can't simply assume any of that.

All you know is the wage. CT state statues say that if your income, as a Single, is less than 10k, your tax % is 3% per dollar. If it is over 10k, your tax % is 5% per dollar on anything over 10k.

http://www.ct.gov/drs/cwp/view.asp?a=1510&q=451160

In Florida, that tax rate is 0%.

Now, argue how that matters from an individual situation to situation basis til your blue in the face. Yes, potentially the difference could be less than the 3% or 5%. But it could, potentially, be 3% to 5%.

To compare apples to apples, you have to take the situational variables out.

[pilferk]

I don't know of anyone, anywhere, that can live on $18,000 (before tax) a year all by themselves.

The cost of living in FL seems to be right in the middle of the pack.

No, you likely can't live on 18k a year, alone.

So don't take a job that pays 18k a year.

The issue is: If you don't have the skill set or education to take a job that pays a higher wage, you're not going to make much more in Atlanta. You'll probably make noteably more in NY or CT, but you'll pay a LOT more, too. "Unskilled" labor positions pay "unskilled" labor wages. I'll admit, it's sad to see. But it's not confined to Disney, and it's not something our economy can bear to fix.

At the end of the day, we're talking about the difference of around $976 per year (or about 18.77 per pay week), for a full time employee, between the wage Disney is paying and the national average. And if that amount was so remarkable, compared to similar jobs in the surrounding area, I would expect to see Disney employees leaving in droves. I would expect to see Disney unable to staff their positions, because they would be "outmaneuvered" on the labor market.

But it doesn't look like we have.

[pilferk]

While you don't pay for heat as much in Florida, you're paying through the roof for air conditioning, practically 12 months a year. Utilities in general are a killer - anywhere in the country.



Just as an aside:

We're a family of 5.

We run a super efficient furnace. Most of this part of the country heats with fuel oil (though some do use electricity).

We pay about $160 per month, for 10 months out of the year, to cover our fuel oil costs.

We also pay AC costs June - September. We "budget plan" our electricity, have a newer home (so good efficiency), use a low cost electricity supplier, energy efficient lighting and lots of energy star appliances.

Our electric bill is about $180 per month.

Total yearly costs: $3760

I suspect that, when you look, you'll find that cost is significantly higher than what you pay to heat/cool/provide electricity to the average floridian household. Largely, that's because your supply rates are LOTS lower than those in CT. I know the average electric bill in Florida (according to FPL) is about $109 a month.

I agree: Utilities are killer. But they seem to be less (gross, not when compared to income) in other places, compared to places like CT and NY.

[ConcKahuna]

Just as an aside:

We're a family of 5.

We run a super efficient furnace. Most of this part of the country heats with fuel oil (though some do use electricity).

We pay about $160 per month, for 10 months out of the year, to cover our fuel oil costs.

We also pay AC costs June - September. We "budget plan" our electricity, have a newer home (so good efficiency), use a low cost electricity supplier, energy efficient lighting and lots of energy star appliances.

Our electric bill is about $180 per month.

Total yearly costs: $3760

I suspect that, when you look, you'll find that cost is significantly higher than what you pay to heat/cool/provide electricity to the average floridian household. Largely, that's because your supply rates are LOTS lower than those in CT. I know the average electric bill in Florida (according to FPL) is about $109 a month.

I agree: Utilities are killer. But they seem to be less (gross, not when compared to income) in other places, compared to places like CT and NY.

I have a 2 bedroom apartment, and pay about $280 a month in electric (March-October). Having to run the heat only sometimes over the winter makes for a much lower bill (about $200 a month).

Another thing to consider in FL is commutes. If you work at Disney, you can't afford to live near Disney. Houses in the 4-corners areas used to sell for about $120k. They went through the roof for a while, but now you still can't get into a resale in that area for less than $200k (unless you luck out on a foreclosure). New homes are about the same price, or more.

2-bedroom apartments in the area average $800-$1200 a month. There are some cheaper, but they tend to be in less-than-desirable areas (no big deal if you don't have a lot to steal).

I lucked out with an apartment that costs $470 a month, but then again I'm about 35 miles south of Disney now.

[faneuil]

I suspect that, when you look, you'll find that cost is significantly higher than what you pay to heat/cool/provide electricity to the average floridian household. Largely, that's because your supply rates are LOTS lower than those in CT. I know the average electric bill in Florida (according to FPL) is about $109 a month.

I agree: Utilities are killer. But they seem to be less (gross, not when compared to income) in other places, compared to places like CT and NY.

I'm thinking of moving to Florida from the metro Atlanta area, so I've been doing lots of research.

Electric in Florida will cost me 25-30% MORE than what I pay in Atlanta.
Electric rates in Atlanta are low compared to a lot of places, and I'm totally electric - which is what I'd be in Florida. (Oil?? What's that?!? J/K - I know.)

The problem I've seen with the south - in general - is that buildings aren't as well insulated as in the north. I actually know of office buildings that lock their revolving doors in the summer, because revolving doors are "to keep the cold from coming in". When I mentioned to a building engineer that they also keep the heat from coming in, he looked at me like I was crazy.

Housing is about the same. I'm prepared to live within 10 miles of Disney and pay $900 a month for rent.

When I was thinking of grad school, I did check into Boston. Until I realized that the northeast was killer for cost. Even though the Orlando area pays less than the Boston area - I'd actually live better in Orlando.

[Donut23]

I have a 2 bedroom apartment, and pay about $280 a month in electric (March-October). Having to run the heat only sometimes over the winter makes for a much lower bill (about $200 a month).

Another thing to consider in FL is commutes. If you work at Disney, you can't afford to live near Disney. Houses in the 4-corners areas used to sell for about $120k. They went through the roof for a while, but now you still can't get into a resale in that area for less than $200k (unless you luck out on a foreclosure). New homes are about the same price, or more.

2-bedroom apartments in the area average $800-$1200 a month. There are some cheaper, but they tend to be in less-than-desirable areas (no big deal if you don't have a lot to steal).

I lucked out with an apartment that costs $470 a month, but then again I'm about 35 miles south of Disney now.



I'm surprised everyone is still tossing this around. I WILL say I always peek at what you post....because I LOVE the seagull! :) :thumbsup2

[WDSearcher]

I have a 2 bedroom apartment, and pay about $280 a month in electric (March-October). Having to run the heat only sometimes over the winter makes for a much lower bill (about $200 a month).
Yikes! I have a 2-bedroom apartment near Ocoee and pay about $88 a month in electric. It can be as low as $55 in the winter. I seldom go over $100, even in mid-August. Of course ... if you're paying $470/mo rent, you're likely in a much older apartment (with less efficient AC/utilities). My rent is twice yours, but I'm less than 15 miles away, so a significantly shorter commute. Not sure who has the better deal, overall.

:earsboy:

[WDSearcher]

Right. That's my point -- the theme parks (including hotels) earn enough money on their own -- and plenty of it. The other poster seems to think these things cost Disney more than what they charge guests, and then the company makes up for that loss through stock issues.
Actually ... that's not QUITE what I said. What I said was that the amount someone pays for a Disney vacation doesn't equal what it costs Disney to provide that vacation.

Based on your POV, Disney wouldn't have to cut costs when the economy was lean. Your position is that if you're paying $2000 for 7 days for one person, that's all it's costing Disney to provide that vacation to you. Your share of Disney expenses for those seven days is $2000. And, probably, it costs them less than that because they're making a profit.

If that's the case, then it shouldn't matter if there are 60 people in the park or 60,000 people in the park. If everyone showing up at Disney is paying at least as much as it costs Disney to provide them with their vacation, then attendance wouldn't matter. But Disney could certainly not survive if there were only 60 people in the park every day.

Disney puts on fireworks every night. The fireworks cost the same amount no matter how many people are there to see them. Disney doesn't adjust how many fireworks are in "Wishes" based on attendance. My ticket costs the same amount no matter how full the park is. I don't get charged more to get in when there are fewer people; they don't up the ticket price on a slow day so that they can balance against the cost of fireworks that night.

I'll agree that there's a profit margin to merchandise and resorts that can help offset ticket sales. But if every person walking onto property was providing enough income to pay for their share of the salaries, entertainment, operations and attractions every day, Disney should be able to set prices so that a specific profit were guaranteed all the time. No layoffs, no cost-cutting, no special incentives needed ... there should be a steady, guaranteed profit margin always. And yet ... that does not happen.

:earsboy:

[skiingfast]

Disney should be able to set prices so that a specific profit were guaranteed all the time. No layoffs, no cost-cutting, no special incentives needed ... there should be a steady, guaranteed profit margin always. And yet ... that does not happen.

:earsboy:

It does set prices, haven't you noticed this? When it doesn't want to raise prices it cuts costs. All to guarantee that specific profit that the shareholders expect. This is what all businesses do. It's that simple and needs no discussion because the facts won't change.

[nytimez]

Actually ... that's not QUITE what I said. What I said was that the amount someone pays for a Disney vacation doesn't equal what it costs Disney to provide that vacation.

Based on your POV, Disney wouldn't have to cut costs when the economy was lean. Your position is that if you're paying $2000 for 7 days for one person, that's all it's costing Disney to provide that vacation to you. Your share of Disney expenses for those seven days is $2000. And, probably, it costs them less than that because they're making a profit.

If that's the case, then it shouldn't matter if there are 60 people in the park or 60,000 people in the park. If everyone showing up at Disney is paying at least as much as it costs Disney to provide them with their vacation, then attendance wouldn't matter. But Disney could certainly not survive if there were only 60 people in the park every day.

Disney puts on fireworks every night. The fireworks cost the same amount no matter how many people are there to see them. Disney doesn't adjust how many fireworks are in "Wishes" based on attendance. My ticket costs the same amount no matter how full the park is. I don't get charged more to get in when there are fewer people; they don't up the ticket price on a slow day so that they can balance against the cost of fireworks that night.

I'll agree that there's a profit margin to merchandise and resorts that can help offset ticket sales. But if every person walking onto property was providing enough income to pay for their share of the salaries, entertainment, operations and attractions every day, Disney should be able to set prices so that a specific profit were guaranteed all the time. No layoffs, no cost-cutting, no special incentives needed ... there should be a steady, guaranteed profit margin always. And yet ... that does not happen.

:earsboy:

No, that's not what I said. If Disney attendance fell that rapidly, the parks would be out of business. But I think this conversation has run its course, I won't try to explain it anymore -- if you want to believe Disney is issuing a steady stream of new stock offerings to pay for the costs of Disney World operations, go right ahead. I won't stand in your way.

[pilferk]

I have a 2 bedroom apartment, and pay about $280 a month in electric (March-October). Having to run the heat only sometimes over the winter makes for a much lower bill (about $200 a month).


So, compared to a pretty energy efficient (according to our power company, CL&P), 3 BR home, ..you're talking almost $1000 difference in utility costs per year.

I find that noteable.


Another thing to consider in FL is commutes. If you work at Disney, you can't afford to live near Disney. Houses in the 4-corners areas used to sell for about $120k. They went through the roof for a while, but now you still can't get into a resale in that area for less than $200k (unless you luck out on a foreclosure). New homes are about the same price, or more.


We live in a more reasonable area of CT. My 2000+ sq foot, 3BR home built about 8 years ago appraises for 200k, even after our market has come down. MOST similar homes, close to population centers, appraise between 300k and 350k. Our housing costs are significantly higher than Florida's.

In addition, for most professionals, you're commuting to Hartford (or nearby suburb like Avon), New Haven (or nearby suburb), or the Gold Coast/NYC area. My commute, while atypical, is about 1hr and 15 minutes ONE WAY. The average commute in CT, according to our DOT, is about 35-40 minutes.


2-bedroom apartments in the area average $800-$1200 a month. There are some cheaper, but they tend to be in less-than-desirable areas (no big deal if you don't have a lot to steal).


Add about $300 a month to those rents, unless you're in a HUD/rent assist.


I lucked out with an apartment that costs $470 a month, but then again I'm about 35 miles south of Disney now.

You couldn't find a 2BR for that price anywhere but in a rent assistied area, or projects in Hartford. That's not lucky, around here, that would be "winning the powerball lottery".

I'm not sure why we're even still debating this. Empirically, by independant agencies, Florida's COL is dead in the middle of the pack. CT is top 4.

What's left to argue, really?

[pilferk]

Yikes! I have a 2-bedroom apartment near Ocoee and pay about $88 a month in electric. It can be as low as $55 in the winter. I seldom go over $100, even in mid-August. Of course ... if you're paying $470/mo rent, you're likely in a much older apartment (with less efficient AC/utilities). My rent is twice yours, but I'm less than 15 miles away, so a significantly shorter commute. Not sure who has the better deal, overall.

:earsboy:

Man, I wish I had your utility bills, and not mine. :)

[WDSearcher]

It does set prices, haven't you noticed this? When it doesn't want to raise prices it cuts costs. All to guarantee that specific profit that the shareholders expect. This is what all businesses do. It's that simple and needs no discussion because the facts won't change.
But then why does the profit percentage change quarter to quarter? If Disney has as much control as you say, then why can they not guarantee their shareholders 10% (or whatever percent) profit every quarter?

Disney does not "guarantee that specific profit that the shareholders expect." They do what they can to post a profit every time, but it is never guaranteed.

:earsboy:

[WDSearcher]

No, that's not what I said. If Disney attendance fell that rapidly, the parks would be out of business. But I think this conversation has run its course, I won't try to explain it anymore -- if you want to believe Disney is issuing a steady stream of new stock offerings to pay for the costs of Disney World operations, go right ahead. I won't stand in your way.

Oh ... you're stuck on THAT. Okay. I used a bad example. I knew what I wanted to say, but didn't say it well. We're both arguing points of different conversations. My bad.

:earsboy:

[ConcKahuna]

Add about $300 a month to those rents, unless you're in a HUD/rent assist.


I would like to add that nearly all apartment complexes anywhere near Disney that are in that price range are income-restricted, so if you make more than $9/hr per person you cannot get approval to live there. They are specifically marketing the entry-level WDW CM.

[skiingfast]

But then why does the profit percentage change quarter to quarter? If Disney has as much control as you say, then why can they not guarantee their shareholders 10% (or whatever percent) profit every quarter?

Disney does not "guarantee that specific profit that the shareholders expect." They do what they can to post a profit every time, but it is never guaranteed.

:earsboy:

They sure do. It is as much as possible. This is what every company's duty is to their shareholders.

This profit is in fact almost always the case why people by shares. It is what determines the price of the shares.

You claim to be a holder if DIS stock so you have recieved some, don't lie and say you didn't want it or don't want more.