WWOHP effect on WDW

[Peter Pirate 2]

My daughter and I just visited WWOHP today. I had preconceived ideas about the addition and the affect it would have on WDW but after visiting my opinions have changed somewhat.

I was one who thought WWOHP would have a large affect this summer then taper off but continue fairly strong for a couple of years. I now feel WWOHP will be huge for many years to come.

The theming of the area is totally Disneyesque and of the highest quality. There is no doubt in my mind that the best and brightest of former Disney imagineers had much to do with this area. Disney has never added any area in the US parks to be talked about in the same sentence with this addition.

The main ride, Forbidden journey, is unparalleled. It's seems to be a next gen Spiderman, which Disney never equalled. I love Spidey and Disney's Indy at DL has long been my favorite ride but this is heads and shoulders above them both.

The main area of Hogsmeade is exactly what you would imagine it to be based on the books and movies. But even if you've never seen the movies or read the books it would be inconceivable that you wouldn't be blown away by the craftsmanship itself.

IOA was always themed magnificently and under appreciated by Disney fanatics because of the lack of 'magic' but the addition of WWOHP has that magic that millions upon millions around the world will identify with and appreciate for years to come.

The WWOHP will not take down the behemoth that is Disney and to be sure Disney will respond at some point. But IMO the WWOHP will keep Universal relevant for all of the near future.

[anthony2k7]

This is undoubtedly why Disney has now decided to continue with their discounting (free dining) after only recently saying the discounts would be ending.

For me I have no doubt WWHOP is going to hit WDW results for a number of years. Universal have taken the line of small cutbacks whilst continuing heavy investment over the last couple of years whilst Disney have relied on heavy cutbacks and little investment. Now Universal have great new attractions, restaurants that are busy, but people can still get in on the day without 180 day reservations - and they're PAYING to eat there (not free dining!). Then there is merchandising... Universal still has a good level of unique merchandising throughout the parks - its not all the same in every shop. Oh, and at the end of the day you can then go to one of their clubs on city walk if you want....

Disney has Fantasyland coming, which will keep the little kids and slightly older girls happy, and star tours II sometime in the next 5 years maybe. What else? not a lot, and nothing in Epcot, AK or either of the water warks is there? Plus they're stuck in this discounting situation. Poor merchandise selection. Restaurants that are full of people not paying and DTD looking more run down by the day.

[anthony2k7]

Plus of course, lego land is coming soon as well!

[Figment632]

WDW will not be effected at all if anything it brings more people to the area.

[poeticdiabetic]

WDW will not be effected at all if anything it brings more people to the area.

I just had this conversation with a couple of marketing guys during some downtime. We determined that WWHOP is probably one of the best things to ever happen for WDW. The reason why we think so is because of the habit of the vacationer, and someone at Disney thought it through.

See normally, people would think (and want) for US/IOA and WDW to have an attraction war. They think that since US/IOA came up with WWHOP, WDW should come up with something that is bigger and better than WWHOP. IF WWHOP recreates Hogsmeade, WDW should recreate Narnia, for instance.

But Disney knows this: Their vacationer will either stay at Disney or go to Disney AND US/IOA. And most of them see WWHOP as an excuse to come to Orlando for vacation. What Disney want them to do is to go to both parks. How do they do that? By extending Free Dining.

Background- people spend between 2-3 days at US/IOA. Many people spend only one day there. The average WDW vacationer spend 4 days or more. Disney wants their vacationers to sleep, eat and play at Disney. By extending Free Dining, you ensure that they do so. WHy? Because in order to take advantage of Free Dining, you must get a room at WDW, buy theme park tickets at WDW and EAT at WDW.

Therefore, if you want to go to WWHOP, you will spend a day or so at US/IOA, but you gotta come back.

[tjkraz]

This is undoubtedly why Disney has now decided to continue with their discounting (free dining) after only recently saying the discounts would be ending.

Disney only said that they were going to begin scaling-back on the discounts. Even with "free dining" being extended, the discounts are still reduced over the prior year. There are more blackout dates in 2010 and room rates are higher than in the past.

That said, I certainly have my doubts as to whether any of this is a reaction to Harry Potter. As others have pointed out, US/IOA is not much of a multi-day resort destination (unless you spend half of your day waiting in line for WWHP.) While US attendance will certainly see a boost from the new attraction, it's likely that Disney will benefit as well.

For me I have no doubt WWHOP is going to hit WDW results for a number of years. Universal have taken the line of small cutbacks whilst continuing heavy investment over the last couple of years whilst Disney have relied on heavy cutbacks and little investment. Now Universal have great new attractions, restaurants that are busy, but people can still get in on the day without 180 day reservations - and they're PAYING to eat there (not free dining!).

It's a pendulum that swings both ways. Several years ago Disney invested heavily in Soarin, Everest, LMA and Stitch (ugh) all within a year's time. US has opened Harry Potter but now what do they have coming within the next couple of years?

Star Tours 2 will be open next year and the Fantasyland makeover will add numerous attractions over the next 3 years.

Disney has added many attractions--big and small--over the last 3-4 years: Toy Story Mania, American Idol, Monster Inc Laugh Floor, Kim Possible, Sum of all Thrills, Nemo ride and stage show, Captain EO, etc. Granted none of them are on the scale of WWHP, but then again we aren't going to see Universal invest in another WWHP anytime soon, either. ;)

Disney has also invested a lot of money in renovating old classics. A lot of dollars went into the likes of Pirates, Haunted Mansion, Hall of Presidents, Small World and Space Mountain in recent years. When it comes to such iconic attractions, those investments are just as important as developing new experiences. Somebody wake me when the likes of ET, Beetlejuice's Graveyard Review, Twister and T2 become relevant again.

As for "free dining", it is only offered during a fraction of the year--about 11 weeks. Something tells me that Disney still turns a nice profit from their mediocre restaurants during the other 41 weeks.

[Uncleromulus]

Well--I'm one who saw the only first movie and was able to get through only about 1/3 of the first book.
So for me Potterworld isn't Hogwart or Hogsmeade--it's more like Hogwash!!

That said, it's obviously a merchandising gold mine for Universal as the Potter fanatics seem to be buying up anything that isn't nailed down. Long term it is no real threat to Disney and for Universal it's a welcome shot in the arm.

Pirate: Did you enjoy your Butterbeer???

[tjkraz]

I was one who thought WWOHP would have a large affect this summer then taper off but continue fairly strong for a couple of years. I now feel WWOHP will be huge for many years to come.


My own sense is that it depends entirely upon what Rowling does with the Potter universe.

I'm old enough to remember (as I'm sure you are, too) what it was like in the late-80s post-Star Wars. After Return of the Jedi (1983), the franchise largely went into hibernation. Kenner even stopped making toys in the late 80s due to lack of demand. Sure we had 3 beloved films and a few minor tie-ins, but the franchise was completely irrelevant without new content.

Potter has two high-profile film releases left and then.... :confused3

Kids will still watch the movies and read the books for years to come, but that trickle of a fanbase won't sustain the franchise's popularity.

Universal's Spider-Man was WWHP before WWHP. The ride was met with just as much acclaim as Forbidden Journey in its day, and yet it didn't have a lasting impact on park attendance.

WWHP has been open for about 3 weeks now and fans have seen it coming for years. Summer trips were planned long ago and there is certainly some added traffic following the positive buzz (locals, people in the area for other vacations, people coming over from WDW, etc.) The crowds really aren't all that surprising.

I'll be more curious to see what happens as the seasons change and when the travel industry is hit with another slowdown. WWHP is certainly a curiosity now but how much of the current business can be sustained once people's attentions have been drawn elsewhere?

Question for you (and anyone else who has visited WWHP): As impressed as you were with WWHP, was it enough to convince you to add to your US/IOA visits in the future? Are US/IOA now parks you will visit every year? Every time you're in town for WDW? Or is it still just an occasional detour?

My thinking is still more along the lines of your initial projection--big crowds this summer and perhaps next year too. But then things will settle down considerably.

As for Disney's response, I think it depends entirely upon whether they feel any wounded pride. Imagineering is certainly capable of equaling everything done at WWHP. The problem is that they don't see a financial justification for doing so. Eisner would have had a cow and dropped $500 million into a park expansion before the first WWHP stories hit the wire. Today's execs are much more bottom-line oriented. The $1 billion they are currently investing in DCA doesn't help.

Unless Disney's attendance takes a hit, I fear they may be content with the current pattern of hitting singles and doubles rather than swinging for a home run.

[Peter Pirate 2]

tj, I'm not one to answer that question as we're AP holders at both but I can tell you that my 17 year old daughter, A kid who grew up with everything Disney was completely, off the charts blown away by this experience and I know our next few free park days (probably until Food and Wine) will be at IOA and not Disney.

Further, it seems Rowling is already working on a related series of books dealing with Dumbledore, so if that's true the end is nowhere in sight.

Uncle, the lines for butterbeer was probably 100 people long. Same to get into the stores! Surprisingly we got onto FJ in 50 minutes and honestly at least 20 minutes of that time on the inside qeue was actually too quick. There is so much to admire. Also the wait for DD was about 25 min.

Certainly WDW isn't going to lose their shirts from this but it's a poke in the eye to those at Disney who hoped to keep guests on site their whole trip. That is now a pipe dream. And more worriesome I would think is that a certain percentage of guests who heretofore wouldn't visit USF will and will find they actually like it a lot (because it is two great parks).

Universal will never be an out and out threat to the well being of WDW. They can't, it's 4 parks vs. 2, etc., etc. But the quality of USF's work can longer be in doubt. This is now a world class park.

[Uncleromulus]

OK--I'll ask--what's a Dumbledore???

[Peter Pirate 2]

LOL!

He's the GREAT Wizard Headmaster of the Hogwarts school, of course!

[Uncleromulus]

Of course. How silly of me to have forgotten:)

Do they have any restaurants (real ones, not just carts or CS) at Potter?

[Peter Pirate 2]

I believe so. The Three Broomsticks (I think) and I've heard it's reservation only at this point. Also, Mythos is right outside of HP and it's really good, but you already knew that.

[WebmasterCricket]

I'm assuming this is only a short term question because we all know Pollo Campero is going to steal any wayward fans right back again.

[hopemax]

Three Broomsticks is counter service, although it is reservation only for breakfast, and only for the people who have booked the HP package.

My parents and I made our first sojourn to Universal in June. I bought a 3 day ticket, and since my parents are FL residents they bought AP's because it was the same price for my Mom. My Dad got the Preferred to get the free parking, and with the day they visited and bought their tickets and my 3 day trip, their passes are paid for. Harry Potter was the impetus for the trip. I had heard good things about Universal before, but since my mom is a CM trips to WDW are free, and Universal costs money. But I am a big HP fan, and I was getting a bit bored with Disney.

After our trip, I would certainly at Universal to the itinerary in the future. Since I prefer free, I don't think it would be an every trip visit, unless I could get a good ticket deal.

We were very impressed with WWoHP, and even with the massive crowds the days we were there, the whole Universal experience was surprisingly satisfying. It was nice to not have to fight so many bodies. Lines for everything but HP were 5-20 min when we experienced them at IOA, 10-30 min the day we were at USF. It was nice to be able to walk into a table service restaurant (Finnegan's) and be seated immediately. Food was above average everywhere we ate, and the cost could be significantly cheaper than Disney at times. 3 of us ate lunch for about the same that it cost my Dad and I at Flame Tree. And our dinner at Finnegan's was half the price of our 1900 Park Fare visit, and that was with using a 50% CM dining coupon my Mom had saved (it was her birthday dinner). The shops were filled with themed merchandise, none of this princess in Frontierland, and Pirates in Tomorrowland, every shop carrying the same type of stuff. The TM's were friendly, and engaged in there roles. And it was nice for my Dad to show his AP and automatically get the discount he was entitled to, unlike when he shows the card that entitles him to CM discounts as a spouse of an employee, and gets told that it isn't good there, when he knows darn well it does.

You'll notice, I really haven't commented on the attractions. Sadly, to say, I think that the selection will prevent people from choosing Universal over Disney. Certainly, there are several high quality attractions at Universal. But we found the rides less repeatable than Disney. Water rides aren't very fun for us more than once per day, and the locker situation is a deterrent to re-riding the coasters. Plus, I think Disney has a better package of characters to work with. Mickey Mouse makes my heart get all twitterpated more than Shrek does. Even though, I am not fans of certain characters I did wonder why there was so little for SpongeBob, Madagascar, Dora, etc.

But the bottom line, we left with is that Disney is not heads and shoulders above the competition. I would even say Universal is more capable of delivering a high quality theme park than Disney. If I look at the most recent additions to Universal: WWoHP, Simpsons, Mummy these were by far more impressive to me than Expedition: Everest or Mission:Space. Disney gets the visitors primarily because of past reputation and not current situation.

[doconeill]

From what I've been hearing, they have already cut back on some of the ambient features they had opening week.

Lines are turning out to be manageable (there were some predictions that it could be disastrous wait times), but they designed the new headline ride in such a way that quite a few people will be unable to ride it. Don't bother trying if you are 6'3" or taller, or pooh-sized.

They obviously did a tremendous job in creating the environment, but they also continue to bill this as a "park" when it is three rides and facades...

[tjkraz]

IMHO, Disney's long term success has more to do with this....

Plus, I think Disney has a better package of characters to work with. Mickey Mouse makes my heart get all twitterpated more than Shrek does.

...than this...

Disney gets the visitors primarily because of past reputation and not current situation.

The vast majority of Universal's licensed properties feel more like flash-in-the-pan fads rather than anything with lasting appeal. Even something like Shrek which has had "legs" as a franchise was underwhelming at the box office. US does have some good properties like Dr Seuss, the Marvel characters and now HP. But the impact is diluted by the likes of Beetlejuice, Fear Factor and Twister. The Mummy is a great ride...but who cares about The Mummy??? (Whoever you are, you'll care even less in 10 years.)

Since many of these franchises are the result of licensing agreements rather than ownership, US is limited in how they can use the characters in their parks.

This is just a personal taste issue but I also find US' attractions to be too reliant on simulator technology. Nicktoons, Simpsons, Spider-Man, Forbidden Journey. My wife doesn't care for simulators and I couldn't even get her on Spider-Man after she was still reeling from the first two.

I also think the second quote above gives short shrift to all that WDW has to offer. Universal has undeniably created some nice attractions in recent years. Unless you're a thrill ride junkie, Disney still has a far better package to offer guests, while its attractions cater to a much wider audience.

It's certainly fair to applaud Rockit, The Simpsons and Forbidden Journey, but there are millions of theme park visitors who are not able (or willing) to experience those rides for a variety of physical/health-related reasons. The same cannot be said of Toy Story Mania, Monster's Inc, Finding Nemo: The Musical or Ariel's Undersea Adventures.

[Peter Pirate 2]

From what I've been hearing, they have already cut back on some of the ambient features they had opening week.

Lines are turning out to be manageable (there were some predictions that it could be disastrous wait times), but they designed the new headline ride in such a way that quite a few people will be unable to ride it. Don't bother trying if you are 6'3" or taller, or pooh-sized.

They obviously did a tremendous job in creating the environment, but they also continue to bill this as a "park" when it is three rides and facades...

Well, I'm 6'3" & 240 and had no trouble at all riding it.

[doconeill]

Well, I'm 6'3" & 240 and had no trouble at all riding it.

6'3" is the limit I've been told, perhaps that's the upper limit.

Edit: I looked up, and the max advertised height is 80" (6'8"), so perhaps some of the taller people are also having problems with the harness latching...but it is a major complaint about the ride that the seats aren't accommodating a fair number of people.

There are already rumblings that Universal is planning some ride alterations already to fix that.

[mitros]

Oh Joy! Oh Rapture, Oh CRAPOLA! All this is going to do is bring even more bodies into the Orlando area, and therefore onto Disney property. We are so sick of Disney doing everything in their power to jam-pack the parks, resorts, and restaurants. And now they have another theme park in the area stuffing un- ending quantities of bodies into the region. This will NOT hurt Disney at all. Oh, for the good old days when visiting WDW was an enjoyable vacation as opposed to a huge , exhausting chore. :guilty::sad2:

[skier_pete]

Ah mitros...how I've missed your grumbling....

My opinion has remained unchange. Short-term this is a big boost for Universal and a small hit for Disney. Long-term this is a small boost for Universal and a smaller boost for Disney.

Think of it this way - if Universal boosted its total attendance by 10 % thanks to WWOHP, that would be considered an absolute HUGE success, do you disagree?

In 2008, Universal had 11,528,000 visitors to it's 2 theme parks.
In 2008, Disney had 47,146,000 visitors to it's 4 main theme parks (i didn't include TL or BB, which would skew the #s further).

So a 10% boost in Uni attendance would be 1.15 Million. If every single one of those people were siphoned from Disney, that would drop their attendance figures to ~46.0 million, or a 2.5 % attendance drop. However, let's assume HALF those 1.15 Million are people that wouldn't normally be coming to Florida, and so since they are coming anyways, decide to visit both Disney and Universal. If we assume they spend 4 days at Disney for every 2 days at Universal, that would actually lead to an added 1.15 million visitors at Disney. Which would mean they would see no affect by WWOHP.

As I've also said before...when the bidding was going out for Harry Potter, do not think these numbers were thought of by Disney. If Disney had wanted HP, they would've gotten it. It didn't make sense to Disney. They would have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars and STILL continue to pay for the rights to someone elses property.

In the end, we'll see the numbers in a few years - but I would bet that Disney ain't sweating this much.

[Peter Pirate 2]

Universal signed with Rowling without the offer ever going out to bid. She did not want to get involved in a bidding war and all of the hullaballoo that was sure to ensue. There was some mutual contacts and the deal was signed, sealed and delivered without Disney even knowing. Michael Eisner was absolutely LIVID and I'll bet people were fired somewhere at Disney, but that's what happened. So Disney not wanting HP is not a part of the equation.

Re: The hit WDW may or may not take, this doesn't matter to me, the fact is Universal out-Disneyed Disney once again on the scale of the theming of the WWOHP and the quality of the totally awesome FJ attraction seems to speak volumes toward the current mindset on creativity between the two, IMO..

WDW will respond in kind when and if they feel the need. Like I said, sheer size will never put this competition on equal footing but IMO Universal is now a safe bet to be a quality offering in the tourist landscape of Orlando for years to come -
which was not the case in the past couple of years.

I might add that it will be very difficult for anyone to make comment on the quality of the WWOHP without seeing it. I personally thought it would be good but I had NO IDEA it could ever be this SPECTACULAR. Your senses are totally transported into this world like no other "land" in any other Park that I've seen.

[FireDancer]

It is impossible to tell yet what the long term effect will be for either park. Right now a lot of people are heading over there because it is new. The question will be are 3 rides and a bunch of shops enough to keep people coming back again and again? Maybe, maybe not. If people who currently do 5 days at Disney at 1 at US start doing 5 at US and 1 at Disney it will be a problem. If people spend one extra day there instead of one extra day in Disney it isn't that big of a deal, especially if that is only on their first visit or two.

I think it is a mistake to look at US as Disney's main competition. I know of no one that goes to the Orlando area and doesn't go to Disney at all. If the main draw is US and Disney is only secondary they are still getting the tourist dollars even if it is a few less dollars. Their main competition is every other vacation destination. If someone chooses an Alaskan cruise, a trip through Tuscany, or a Six Flags somewhere else in the country instead of a theme park in the Orlando area then Disney is not getting anything. Unless of course that cruise is on a Disney trip or the Tuscany trip is booked through ABD.

We will see how the Fantasy Land refurb in FL and cars land in DCA compare with WWoHP on scale.

[skier_pete]

I think it is a mistake to look at US as Disney's main competition. I know of no one that goes to the Orlando area and doesn't go to Disney at all. If the main draw is US and Disney is only secondary they are still getting the tourist dollars even if it is a few less dollars. Their main competition is every other vacation destination. If someone chooses an Alaskan cruise, a trip through Tuscany, or a Six Flags somewhere else in the country instead of a theme park in the Orlando area then Disney is not getting anything. Unless of course that cruise is on a Disney trip or the Tuscany trip is booked through ABD.

This is it in a nutshell. If WWOHP keeps people coming to Orlando - that's good for Disney & the Orlando economy.

[mitros]

Ah mitros...how I've missed your grumbling....

My opinion has remained unchange. Short-term this is a big boost for Universal and a small hit for Disney. Long-term this is a small boost for Universal and a smaller boost for Disney.

Think of it this way - if Universal boosted its total attendance by 10 % thanks to WWOHP, that would be considered an absolute HUGE success, do you disagree?

In 2008, Universal had 11,528,000 visitors to it's 2 theme parks.
In 2008, Disney had 47,146,000 visitors to it's 4 main theme parks (i didn't include TL or BB, which would skew the #s further).

So a 10% boost in Uni attendance would be 1.15 Million. If every single one of those people were siphoned from Disney, that would drop their attendance figures to ~46.0 million, or a 2.5 % attendance drop. However, let's assume HALF those 1.15 Million are people that wouldn't normally be coming to Florida, and so since they are coming anyways, decide to visit both Disney and Universal. If we assume they spend 4 days at Disney for every 2 days at Universal, that would actually lead to an added 1.15 million visitors at Disney. Which would mean they would see no affect by WWOHP.

As I've also said before...when the bidding was going out for Harry Potter, do not think these numbers were thought of by Disney. If Disney had wanted HP, they would've gotten it. It didn't make sense to Disney. They would have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars and STILL continue to pay for the rights to someone elses property.

In the end, we'll see the numbers in a few years - but I would bet that Disney ain't sweating this much.

Aw, gee, ya' missed me? Well stand by, there's plenty more where this came from..........

[skier_pete]

Aw, gee, ya' missed me? Well stand by, there's plenty more where this came from..........

I do enjoy reading your posts...you remind me a little of Grumpy...always complaining, but I know your complaining is because you really care about Disney, or else you wouldn't complain about it so much. I hope you do find some small pleasures there in amongst all those crowds of people, falling apart rides, and the crappy food.:thumbsup2

[poeticdiabetic]

This is it in a nutshell. If WWOHP keeps people coming to Orlando - that's good for Disney & the Orlando economy.

Correct. That's kinda what I said a while back is that the pattern is set. People spend 5 days at Disney and one or two days at US/IOA. Even if US/IOA expands WWHOP into a larger park, it will still be that way.

The only way for that to change is for US/IOA to open new hotels and restaurants. If US/IOA opened some value and moderate hotels, that would be called "competition." If they opened up and expanded their parks, along with those hotels, that would be competion.

But why would US/IOA spend that kinda money? It's the same reason why you won't see Narnia or Middle Earth recreated anytime soon at WDW: They both make money when new things opens up at each park. Universal people loved it when EE opened up. WDW loves it now. Know why? Because it doesn't upset the pattern of the Orlando vacationer.

[Peter Pirate 2]

This isn't about guest numbers at WDW or Universal, it's about creativity and imagination. Currently Universal is showing a willingness to give it to us and Disney is not.

If your love of Disney is just for them to be a profitable conglomerate then I agree that you have nothing to fear. Their MBS'a will keep the dollars going into those corporate coffers. But if you're looking at things from a guests perspective it's awfully impressive to see that one park has taken the biggest cultural phenomenon in years and turned it into a MAGICAL wonderland (Narnia is no Harry Potter). It is imagination at it's best and it has nothing to do with whether Universal will take crowds from WDW or not. To me that means nothing.

[Cheshire Figment]

According to the TEA report from a couple of months ago, the following Central Florida Theme Parks were in the Worldwide Top 25 based on attendance:

1. The Magic Kingdom
6. Epcot
7. Disney's Hollywood Studios
8. Disney's Animal Kingdom
12. Sea World
13. Universal Studios
17. Islands of Adventure
23. Busch Gardens Tampa

And a side note for those interested, the following were in the Worldwide Top 20 Waterparks:

1. Typhoon Lagoon
2. Blizzard Beach
4. Aquatica
7. Wet and Wild
16. Adventure Island

And you can click here (http://www.aecom.com/deployedfiles/Internet/Capabilities/Economics/News/2009%20Theme%20Index%20Final%20042710_for%20screen .pdf) for the full report.

[ab*cdn*mouse]

This isn't about guest numbers at WDW or Universal, it's about creativity and imagination. Currently Universal is showing a willingness to give it to us and Disney is not.

If your love of Disney is just for them to be a profitable conglomerate then I agree that you have nothing to fear. Their MBS'a will keep the dollars going into those corporate coffers. But if you're looking at things from a guests perspective it's awfully impressive to see that one park has taken the biggest cultural phenomenon in years and turned it into a MAGICAL wonderland (Narnia is no Harry Potter). It is imagination at it's best and it has nothing to do with whether Universal will take crowds from WDW or not. To me that means nothing.

Is Harry Potter actually Universal's creativity - I had heard that Warner Bros creative people were involved with it. Looking at what Disney has put out with World of Color and I expect the new cars land at DLR and this partnering with Pixar, Disney still has some imagination at work.

I am looking forward to seeing US and IOA (with WWHOP) this December 2010. I am sure that it will be great to see this new addition to the Orlando scene.

As for imagination at it's best, we will have to see how long HP plays out, two years at least one would expect with the last two movies coming out.

As well, let's see what imagination US puts into the rest of its resorts (with their next hotel and the theme that they use (or Loews uses)). They do have some great ideas for their hotel guests such as the express pass for hotel guests (I have heard that it beats the fastpass). It would be interesting to see if Disney could pull of this with its 20+ resorts and all those guests having such an access.

[lugnut33]

Personally I'm looking forward to the Fantasyland expansion more than the WWHP, but that's just me.

I don't really think it's fair to say Disney Imagineering is being out-imagineered, especially when you look at what is going on at Disneyland and DCA. There are some really awesome shows and attractions opening there and a BILLION dollars being spent. You can't just think of themeparks as being WDW only because Disneyland is still important (personally, I like DL better than WDW).

[skiingfast]

I don't really think it's fair to say Disney Imagineering is being out-imagineered, especially when you look at what is going on at Disneyland and DCA. There are some really awesome shows and attractions opening there and a BILLION dollars being spent. You can't just think of themeparks as being WDW only because Disneyland is still important (personally, I like DL better than WDW).

It's a good point but also consider that Disney is putting in two new cruise ships and expanding it's DL's in Paris and Hong Kong as well.

FWIW having been there if you saw what Disney is doing in DCA you wouldn't think of WWHP being anything grand just a new ride.

[Peter Pirate 2]

So now Universal Florida has to keep pace with all Disney Parks worldwide and the DCL!!! Nothing like diluting the discussion. I don't understand all of the apologizing for Disney whenever anything puts them in a less than perfect light.

The implementation of WWOHP was a huge 'team' effort that did include Warner's creative people to a great extent, but what's the point? Creativity is creativity and it was USF that did it and honestly we know a LOT of Disney trained former imagineers had a lot to do with it. You know those folks Disney didn't feel they needed anymore. So, of course, it looks a lot something Disney would have done.

The continued argument that the popularity of the WWOHP is simply going to go away when the last movie is released is so tired. HP is a worldwide phenomenon and if you'll notice most of what Disney is built on is pretty 'classic' stuff itself. Add to that that Rowling WILL be continuing the theme in another vein which will keep HP current. If you personally don't like HP, fine, but don't condescend that a personal opinion is a widely held view. I happen to hate caviar but you'll never hear me say that caviar is awful food for clearly it's my palette that's not educated enough to appreciate it. Plus Michael Eisner wanted the rights to HP VERY, VERY much. He just didn't get the chance. So I wonder if HP was at say MGM you guys would be singing a different tune? I think you would.

I also really want to see Disney's Wonderful World of Color at DL at DCA (DL is also my favorite Park) but I can't believe anyone can compare a water show to the WWOHP, it is inconceivable.

I reiterate, if you haven't seen the WWOHP then you simply cannot conceive of it's magnitude and quality and must be very careful to make rash judgements. Think the quality of the E:E at AK and multiply it by about 50.

This is not just an attraction addition like Indy, E:E or TOT, this is a whole land and while it's true that it only has what, three rides and only one is new there is plenty of opportunity for expansion in the future. But for now even the darn gift shops and counter service restaurants have lines to get in. The decision to pace themselves was a good one lest there'd be rioting in the parking garages to get in line first!

It's sad that so many have to see this as Disney vs. Universal. It's really about us, the guest. As long as Disney does what they do and Universal and Sea World do what they do, isn't that good for all of us? My main complaint with Disney is that they've become a business more than an entertainer and I'd prefer they do it the other way around. The way they used to, when all of this "magic" stuff was made.

[poeticdiabetic]

This isn't about guest numbers at WDW or Universal, it's about creativity and imagination. Currently Universal is showing a willingness to give it to us and Disney is not.

If your love of Disney is just for them to be a profitable conglomerate then I agree that you have nothing to fear. Their MBS'a will keep the dollars going into those corporate coffers. But if you're looking at things from a guests perspective it's awfully impressive to see that one park has taken the biggest cultural phenomenon in years and turned it into a MAGICAL wonderland (Narnia is no Harry Potter). It is imagination at it's best and it has nothing to do with whether Universal will take crowds from WDW or not. To me that means nothing.

That's not true concerning Disney. US/IOA has done a fantastic job putting together great rides and WWHOP is being highly touted as a truly fun experience, but that doesn't discount everything that Disney has done at WDW. To say that reveals bias, because it was only a couple of years when EE was the "big thing." Or TOT. Or Mission to Mars. We can go on and on.

At Universal, I can remember Jurassic Park. Or (my favorite ride of all time) Revenge of the Mummy. I can go on and on.

Creativity and innovation is great when it comes to rides and the riding experience. I personally think that US/IOA have better rides than WDW. I think the water rides gets you wetter at US/IOA than at WDW. I think that ROTM is the best themed ride of any park. I love the Simpsons ride. I love the fact that there were people from all around the world was standing in line one time when we were there... and the queue was making everyone laugh. That was great.

WDW have rides that I love, too. My second favorite ride at any park is TOT. 3rd favorite? Mars, baby! Orange!

But creativity and innovation goes beyond the rides, though. What WDW have that US/IOA doesn't is the ability to totally immerse people into a fantasyland. Only at WDW can you spend a whole week and eat at a different restaurant every meal, shop at different shops, watch a show, sleep at a value, moderate or luxury hotel and go to 4 theme parks and 2 water parks- all without having to leave the property!

Plus, you can eat and shop without having your wallet or purse. You don't have to carry your purchased stuff around, because someone would take it up to your room. And you don't need your cash or credit card to buy food- just use your little card that serves as your ticket, charge card and room key.

That's creative and innovative, too. And that creativity is why the vacationer pattern is set.


But this is a win for both companies. US/IOA proved to the world that they can put together an experience that is truly immersible. As a result, the turnstiles are turning at a great pace.

WDW is happy because that means that people are coming to their hotels, parks and restaurants, as well... even though they might spend a day or two at US/IOA.

In other words, this whole US/IOA vs. WDW competition thing is an illusion. US/IOA have their niche and WDW have their niche. They both feed off each other. You think US/IOA is going to be mad when Star Tours 2 opens up at WDW?

[Virtucomp]

Let me start by saying that we've never gone to Universal on any of our trips to WDW. When Harry Potter opened I started looking into including Universal on our next trip.

Everyone here is into Potter. The kids grew up with the books and the movies. They regularly depate the differences between the two.

As I see the new Universal offering I see two roller coasters re-themed to be Harry Potter so they were not planned from the ground up to be for the books. There is the Forbidden Journey which sounds like a wonderful attraction and fits perfectly with the theme of course. I'd love to see the attraction.

Then the remainder of the area sounds to me like souveniers and food. Not that I'm knocking Universal for the idea but I don't want to spend hours waiting and walking around gift shops to spend my money on stuff that will loose it's interest as soon as we get home.

I'd much more like to see smaller attractions spread around the area to cater to all families. Suppose I have a 3 yr old that does not ride roller coasters. I can go on one attraction if it's not too scary.

[ChrisFL]

Fantasyland is so yawn inducing though. Sure it will look pretty, but this "whole land" is only one new ride, one existing ride cloned and moved, and lots of shops and restaurants....

....why is that any better than what WWOHP?

[MaleficentandGoons]

TO me WWoHP has so much more to give. Yes there are only two more movies left but UNLIKE Star Wars it's a book. Which means that my great great grandchild will be able to read the series and enjoy it one day. The Star Wars ride is so out of date right now and even if you watch the movies it's still not as exciting as reading an book. Does that make sense?

Anyway there are many things that can be added on to WWHP and I'm sure they will be. Like The Dark Forest, Gringotts, The Weasleys home, The Black home.

[poeticdiabetic]

TO me WWoHP has so much more to give. Yes there are only two more movies left but UNLIKE Star Wars it's a book. Which means that my great great grandchild will be able to read the series and enjoy it one day. The Star Wars ride is so out of date right now and even if you watch the movies it's still not as exciting as reading an book. Does that make sense?

Anyway there are many things that can be added on to WWHP and I'm sure they will be. Like The Dark Forest, Gringotts, The Weasleys home, The Black home.

Star Wars have books that goes WAYYY beyond Luke Skywalker defeating the Emperor. WAY beyond. There's the Jedi Academy trilogy. There's the New Jedi Order, the Nagai-Tof War. There's the Battle of Mindor and the return of the Emperor. There's the 2nd Galactic Civil War... goodness! And don't get me started on Luke's descendants and apprentices.

So there's a whole lot more to the story than the movies. Star Wars stories are still being written and canonized even now. And there are more books about the Star Wars Universe and the stories therein than I can ever read.

[tjkraz]

Universal signed with Rowling without the offer ever going out to bid. She did not want to get involved in a bidding war and all of the hullaballoo that was sure to ensue. There was some mutual contacts and the deal was signed, sealed and delivered without Disney even knowing. Michael Eisner was absolutely LIVID and I'll bet people were fired somewhere at Disney, but that's what happened. So Disney not wanting HP is not a part of the equation.

Plus Michael Eisner wanted the rights to HP VERY, VERY much. He just didn't get the chance.

I'm not a Harry Potter fan and didn't follow this situation very closely at all. But is there some source (website?) that explains your comments above in greater detail?

The only thing I ever read about HP's theme park history suggested that Rowling did meet with Disney. However, some of her suggestions (demands?) for a themed land were not met with a very warm reception. That, combined with financial terms which were not very favorable, caused Disney to lose interest from what I read.

I'm not sure how Eisner would have been involved either. He left Disney in 2005 and the deal with Universal wasn't announced until 2007. I find it hard to believe that a deal was actually struck during Eisner's tenure but US chose to sit on it for 2-3 years.

Either way, I'd be curious to read another version of the history.

...it's about creativity and imagination. Currently Universal is showing a willingness to give it to us and Disney is not.

On this point I wholeheartedly disagree. Disney and Universal have been involved in a game of one upmanship for years. It should come as no surprise that Universal's latest and greatest trumps recent Disney offerings in a variety of ways. But Disney has certainly had its own share of innovations in recent years.

Most of their efforts have been geared toward the Living Character Initiative and now they have a lot of RFID projects in the hopper. I wouldn't be surprised if many of those elements start to come to fruition in Fantasyland within the next couple of years.

This isn't the 1950s (or even the 1980s) when Disney was the only serious player in town. Comments like this...

...we know a LOT of Disney trained former imagineers had a lot to do with it. You know those folks Disney didn't feel they needed anymore. So, of course, it looks a lot something Disney would have done.

...paint a very incomplete picture of the situation. We aren't just talking about talented and bitter former Imagineers who were kicked to the curb and are working their butts off with a chip on the shoulder. People leave jobs for a variety of reasons.

And I'm sure there are more than a few people involved with WWoHP who did not earn that Disney pedigree. Heck I could point you toward a dozen different books which detail Disney design philosophies. You don't need to have WDI on the resume in order to mirror what Disney has put out there for the last 55 years.

[plutotek]

Star Wars have books that goes WAYYY beyond Luke Skywalker defeating the Emperor. WAY beyond. There's the Jedi Academy trilogy. There's the New Jedi Order, the Nagai-Tof War. There's the Battle of Mindor and the return of the Emperor. There's the 2nd Galactic Civil War... goodness! And don't get me started on Luke's descendants and apprentices.

So there's a whole lot more to the story than the movies. Star Wars stories are still being written and canonized even now. And there are more books about the Star Wars Universe and the stories therein than I can ever read.

However, the extended stories relating to SW are, for the most part, little more than pulp/dime novels, exhibiting some creative elements, but they are not on the same level as series such as those created by Tolkien/Lewis/Rowling.

[tjkraz]

Fantasyland is so yawn inducing though. Sure it will look pretty, but this "whole land" is only one new ride, one existing ride cloned and moved, and lots of shops and restaurants....

....why is that any better than what WWOHP?

I don't see it as being "better", but it has the potential to be WWoHP's equal. All WWoHP really added to the park was one new ride, two rethemed rides and lots of shops and restaurants. Same difference.

I will say that WWoHP probably has a better unifying theme. Fantasyland is geared around princesses, but I'm not sure if its collection of cottages and castles will come together in the same cohesive manner. Time will tell.

A better comparison will be Carsland at DCA. From what I have seen, designers did an excellent job of leveraging the subject matter there. All of the key locations from the film will be leveraged and make for a truly immersive experience.

[poeticdiabetic]

However, the extended stories relating to SW are, for the most part, little more than pulp/dime novels, exhibiting some creative elements, but they are not on the same level as series such as those created by Tolkien/Lewis/Rowling.

There are technical manuals, reference books children's books, adult novels, comic books, cookbooks, dictionaries, etc. They aren't Tolkien/Lewis/Rowling books because they are written by a myriad of authors, but the stories are there and canonized into the timeline of galactic history. ( And in order to be canonized, it has to be endorsed by Lucasfilm. The Clone Wars projects, for instance, aren't canonized.)

Star Wars even have their own wikipedia portal called "Wookiepedia." And their own religion. (3 of them to be exact- Jediism, Jedi Realism and the International church of Jediism. Crazy, I know)

There aren't many creative elements in the Legacy of the Force series? Or the Lost Tribe of the Sith?

My sons have never watched an episode nor read a word of Harry Potter, but they have read all of the Narnia series. They have also watched the LOTR series, but they haven't read the books. But they wouldn't get lost on Tatooine, Geonosis, or Felucia. They want to vacation in Naboo. There are hundreds of planets and moons detailed in the Star Wars galaxy. That's not creative?:lmao:

[ChrisFL]

Yes, I agree that CarsLand will be very nice, but it's still in DL.

If we're going to compare Disney parks outside of WDW, IMO DisneySea absolutely is better than IOA (and any other theme park for that matter), but it's in Tokyo and not Orlando.

[Peter Pirate 2]

Most of what I state is from memory of detailed discussions here on the DIS by former posters, a few who had actual insider knowledge and no longer post here. You can of course believe nothing I say, if you choose.

I'm sure Rowling started negotiations with Universal in 2004. According to an article I read on Jim Hill, Disney secured some meetings with Rowling's people as Eisner wanted HP greatly, but I don't believe Rowling herself was ever a part of these. According to Hill, Iger (when he took over) wasn't as insistent and soon after the deal with Universal was consumated. I personally don't remember Iger ever having this opportunity but still Jim Hill usually has some fact in what he says. But I recall that the deal was pretty much agreed upon between Universal and Rowling before Iger took over Disney.

Either way it seems Universal always had the inside track and Iger ruined whatever chance Disney may have had. This makes sense as Iger knows and cares less about creativity than Eisner did (which is scary).

I agree to disagree with you about creativity if you're saying that the steps Disney has taken creatively compare to what Universal has done going back to Spiderman. I'm not discounting things like 'Wonderful World of Color' - I really look forward to seeing it, but there is a difference between creating a water related show and duplicating a film/cinematic classic like HP in the scale that has been done and then there is the ride itself, of course!

Even when creating 'E:E', which I think is visually stunning, Disney still failed to break any ground with the attraction itself.

As to the imagineer comments, I think you misunderstand me. My point is that the very same folks that created much of Disney 'magic' over the years did go to work for Universal or sub-companies that worked for Universal. All of these guys weren't fired by Disney but they were all talented enough to have been at Disney at one point in time, which you must agree probably makes them pretty good. Remember at the end of Eisner's era and the beginning of smiling Bob's, Disney virtually eliminated Imagineering from existence.

It's my take and I have no documentation, I'm just reliving the past, so to speak. the sad thing it always seems like I like Universal better than Disney or that I really hate Disney in these discussions and that just isn't true. I probably enjoy the parks equally but I still adore and love the Classic Disney offerings and I agree that much of the new stuff is fun. But simply being fun is a pretty low bar, much lower than the standard that was in place when Pirates, Splash and all the way to ToT were created. JMO.

[skier_pete]

I don't think you dislike Disney...and I don't think your claim the Universal has a winner on its hands isn't true. I do think you are mistaken in claims that Disney never had a stake in the HP sweepstakes. I found this on Wikipedia, which leads to a number of links that remain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter_Theme_Park

From my view, Rowling and Disney definitely talked, and for whatever reason (it may be years or decades before the truth is known, if ever) they didn't get it. Again, my suspicion is it was about money - how much they would have to pay for the rights. Disney's immense popularity really meant Universal NEEDED Harry more than Disney. Universal has really been struggling for the better part of this decade, with financial losses. Disney has not. Someone at Uni was smart enough to see this could be a game-changer (which I am not convinced it is), or at least enough to boost Unis profitability. Good move for them. I'm a real fan of HP as is my wife, but DD is only 7 and not ready for HP. When she's a little older (perhaps 10 or 11), I think we will head over there at least once.

[MaleficentandGoons]

However, the extended stories relating to SW are, for the most part, little more than pulp/dime novels, exhibiting some creative elements, but they are not on the same level as series such as those created by Tolkien/Lewis/Rowling.

:thumbsup2

[poeticdiabetic]

There are technical manuals, reference books children's books, adult novels, comic books, cookbooks, dictionaries, etc. They aren't Tolkien/Lewis/Rowling books because they are written by a myriad of authors, but the stories are there and canonized into the timeline of galactic history. ( And in order to be canonized, it has to be endorsed by Lucasfilm. The Clone Wars projects, for instance, aren't canonized.)

Star Wars even have their own wikipedia portal called "Wookiepedia." And their own religion. (3 of them to be exact- Jediism, Jedi Realism and the International church of Jediism. Crazy, I know)

There aren't many creative elements in the Legacy of the Force series? Or the Lost Tribe of the Sith?

My sons have never watched an episode nor read a word of Harry Potter, but they have read all of the Narnia series. They have also watched the LOTR series, but they haven't read the books. But they wouldn't get lost on Tatooine, Geonosis, or Felucia. They want to vacation in Naboo. There are hundreds of planets and moons detailed in the Star Wars galaxy. That's not creative?

[plutotek]

There are technical manuals, reference books children's books, adult novels, comic books, cookbooks, dictionaries, etc. They aren't Tolkien/Lewis/Rowling books because they are written by a myriad of authors, but the stories are there and canonized into the timeline of galactic history. ( And in order to be canonized, it has to be endorsed by Lucasfilm. The Clone Wars projects, for instance, aren't canonized.)

Star Wars even have their own wikipedia portal called "Wookiepedia." And their own religion. (3 of them to be exact- Jediism, Jedi Realism and the International church of Jediism. Crazy, I know)

There aren't many creative elements in the Legacy of the Force series? Or the Lost Tribe of the Sith?

My sons have never watched an episode nor read a word of Harry Potter, but they have read all of the Narnia series. They have also watched the LOTR series, but they haven't read the books. But they wouldn't get lost on Tatooine, Geonosis, or Felucia. They want to vacation in Naboo. There are hundreds of planets and moons detailed in the Star Wars galaxy. That's not creative?:lmao:

There are technical manuals, reference books children's books, adult novels, comic books, cookbooks, dictionaries, etc. They aren't Tolkien/Lewis/Rowling books because they are written by a myriad of authors, but the stories are there and canonized into the timeline of galactic history. ( And in order to be canonized, it has to be endorsed by Lucasfilm. The Clone Wars projects, for instance, aren't canonized.)

Star Wars even have their own wikipedia portal called "Wookiepedia." And their own religion. (3 of them to be exact- Jediism, Jedi Realism and the International church of Jediism. Crazy, I know)

There aren't many creative elements in the Legacy of the Force series? Or the Lost Tribe of the Sith?

My sons have never watched an episode nor read a word of Harry Potter, but they have read all of the Narnia series. They have also watched the LOTR series, but they haven't read the books. But they wouldn't get lost on Tatooine, Geonosis, or Felucia. They want to vacation in Naboo. There are hundreds of planets and moons detailed in the Star Wars galaxy. That's not creative?

Not sure what your point is (repeated an earlier posting)???

[poeticdiabetic]

Not sure what your point is (repeated an earlier posting)???

I'm pretty sure you do not, so let me explain even further...

What would be more creative, creating a detailed world or detailed universe? Also, have you ever read any of the adult novels? If you had, you would realize that it's more than 'dime novels.'

They may not be better works of art than the works of Tolkien, Lewis or Rowling. Star Wars is a collective work so some will be good and some will be bad. But you don't become the greatest, most influential and richest franchise is history by putting out merely "some creative elements." You do so by constantly creating and building.

[skier_pete]

Look, not to get in between two sides on the SW vs HP debate. (SW novels date back to the original movies, and I have several of the "original novels" sitting on a shelf - including the Han Solo trilogy and Splinter of a mind's eye, which were published early-eighties.)

But, I think point is being made here in the conversation. SW has a very large and varied universe, and all really WDW has done with it is one ride. This sort of proves to me that Disney is not interested in expanding on projects that they don't 100% own. At the time that Disney licensed SW / Indy in the '80s, they didn't have the live-action based franchises they do now. They are not going to spend a boat-load of capital (Big business HATES capital spending.) on new rides/attractions unless they are getting 100% of the cut. Yes, there's SWW - which are really just a bunch of people in costumes, so very little capital outgo there.

This is why Disney ceded HP to Universal without much of a fight (you can bet that % cut was a sticking point) and why a major SW expansion will never occur.

[plutotek]

I'm pretty sure you do not, so let me explain even further...

What would be more creative, creating a detailed world or detailed universe? Also, have you ever read any of the adult novels? If you had, you would realize that it's more than 'dime novels.'

They may not be better works of art than the works of Tolkien, Lewis or Rowling. Star Wars is a collective work so some will be good and some will be bad. But you don't become the greatest, most influential and richest franchise is history by putting out merely "some creative elements." You do so by constantly creating and building.

No need to get snarky. I was simply asking why you were repeating your same post twice.

And yes, I have read some of the adult books, comic books, graphic novels, including the originals. However, I won't debate your opinion that it is the 'greatest, most influential and richest franchise in history' because that's what it is..your opinion, and you're welcome to it. :)

[poeticdiabetic]

Look, not to get in between two sides on the SW vs HP debate. (SW novels date back to the original movies, and I have several of the "original novels" sitting on a shelf - including the Han Solo trilogy and Splinter of a mind's eye, which were published early-eighties.)

But, I think point is being made here in the conversation. SW has a very large and varied universe, and all really WDW has done with it is one ride. This sort of proves to me that Disney is not interested in expanding on projects that they don't 100% own. At the time that Disney licensed SW / Indy in the '80s, they didn't have the live-action based franchises they do now. They are not going to spend a boat-load of capital (Big business HATES capital spending.) on new rides/attractions unless they are getting 100% of the cut. Yes, there's SWW - which are really just a bunch of people in costumes, so very little capital outgo there.

This is why Disney ceded HP to Universal without much of a fight (you can bet that % cut was a sticking point) and why a major SW expansion will never occur.

I agree. I do not believe that Disney will ever expand a franchised project the way US/IOA did. (Well, maybe like US/IOA did because it's only about 3 rides and some shops. But not like if WWHOP is expanded, which may be in the future.) I believe that Disney will keep generalized thematics, even with the franchises that they own.

[poeticdiabetic]

No need to get snarky. I was simply asking why you were repeating your same post twice.

And yes, I have read some of the adult books, comic books, graphic novels, including the originals. However, I won't debate your opinion that it is the 'greatest, most influential and richest franchise in history' because that's what it is..your opinion, and you're welcome to it. :)

Not trying to be snarky, just trying to answer your question in a manner where you can understand it.

And I agree with you, "Greatest, Most Influential and Richest Franchise in history" is my opinion. It's based upon research from Forbes, the Financial Times and other publications.

[plutotek]

Not trying to be snarky, just trying to answer your question in a manner where you can understand it.

And I agree with you, "Greatest, Most Influential and Richest Franchise in history" is my opinion. It's based upon research from Forbes, the Financial Times and other publications.

I actually understood your comment the first time you posted it. Any further debate is not going to change anything; you're big fan of SW, me not so much.

[ChrisFL]

Seriously, bring SW's books up is not saying anything...probably only about 5% of the general public have ever picked one up.

[CanadianGuy]

The WWOHP ... heard a LOT of comments on it from folks who have visited.. (mind you mainly in June)

The comments can be boiled down to "Yeah it's cool.. but there wasn't much 'there' there.. "

And having gone over exactly what the area offers ... I was disappointed myself. I expected more ... (probably due to USO's marketing efforts)..

Several reviews I read said the same thing -- cool but limited currently unless it expands.

Only time will be the true test of it's popularity .. which I expect to be huge for a while yet for sure.

[skiingfast]

Seriously, bring SW's books up is not saying anything...probably only about 5% of the general public have ever picked one up.

Probably because with SW the movie came first.

FWIW I knew of the starwars books long ago but have never read any HP book. My son a generation behind me is aware of SW but not HP. This is because SW movies were released 30 years apart. HP has shoved out all it's book and movies thus collecting a smaller audience over time.