Apparently Mr. Beem isn't the only one that has had issues in Downtown Disney

[aggielawyer]

Saw this posted this morning, and thought it was interesting:

http://www.stuckincustoms.com/2010/05/30/disney-worl

[Chikabowa]

That is one of the most beautiful HDR pics of Disney I've ever seen. Kuddos to him for that one! Actually... one of the best HDR period. Very very very nice.

My hypothesis on this is that Disney is having issues. Not necessarily with bloggers or Mr. Beem, but in general with threats. Their security is multi-layered and we have absolutely no idea what could possibly deemed a threat or a problem these days. They have a responsibility to their guests to provide a safe environment free of fear - which is what their business philosophy is based upon.

Who knows what is going on behind the scenes and what they are looking out for. But while these things are annoyances and probably a little scary (I know I would be scared if surrounded by security), I don't think they are purposely out to capture or harass Blogger-Guest A and Blogger-Guest B. But they have to ensure that the environment down there is safe for all guests - which means questioning and digging for more information.

Now that there have been two instances - both of HDR photographers - I'm thinking that the time and effort it takes to do these HDR photos could be triggering security to look at them a little more. Neither of these photographers were your typical point-and-shoot, nor were they just out with a tripod getting some night-photos. It takes time and a lot of effort to do these types of shots and I'm wondering if that has something to do with each instance.

[SrisonS]

It really doesn't take much time to take HDR shots. It's basically just 3-5 shots in very quick succession. I'm thinking that the "problems" mainly arise when someone might be out with a tripod setting up at different angles; and getting many different shots. I'm definitely not on Disney's side with this; just stating that HDR is not the problem.

I'm just curious to what the main cause of concern is that the security has. Is it terrorist related; or not wanting the images to be used for commercial use??? And if anything, there should at least be postings of such warnings; especially in a popular tourist destination where many people take pictures. I bet that 99.99% of Disney guests think it's ok to take pictures ANYWHERE on Disney property (of course not sectioned-off areas, or places for only CM's though).

[Uncle Greg]

My biggest fear is that all of this will escalate to the point where Disney just says "no photography allowed", period. Sure that wont stop the quick snaps from cellphones, etc but SLR users will done.

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Each one has a cluster of buildings set in the theme of the country. They are all quite authentic, and the areas are staffed with people from the countries. The Norway area has authentic-looking and -sounding Norwegians. The Germany area is filled with Germans in postcard-German-clothes. The Canada area has people that look and sound like Americans.


Haha!

[ukcatfan]

My biggest fear is that all of this will escalate to the point where Disney just says "no photography allowed", period. Sure that wont stop the quick snaps from cellphones, etc but SLR users will done.

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Haha!

Don't worry about that because it will never happen. They realize that the pictures people take are their souvenirs. They also help encourage people to return when they look back at their old shots. Disney is way too smart to do something like that.

One thing that struck me as odd is that the person did not have his ID with him. That is just plain stupid! You should never go anywhere without your ID. Period!!!

[WDWFigment]

Now that it's happened to Trey Ratcliffe (who is insanely popular and has a very wide readership), I fear that it will get much more attention from Disney and the company will crack down on the areas it can. Obviously, there will never be "No Photography" (or even "No DSLR") rules with how popular photography is there, and how commonplace DSLRs are, but tripods, lenses over a certain length, etc., could all be banned. It's likely a lot easier to create a blanket ban on those items than to uniformly enforce rules that are inherently subjective. From Disney's perspective, that must be one way to decrease the subjectivity.

Kudos to Ratcliffe for being reasonable, presenting the account (seemingly) objectively, and not considering the actions of one security guard to be representative of the company. Definitely handled and presented his "case" a lot better than Beem (and I don't care for Ratcliffe's HDR, so it's not as if I'm biased).

[Marlton Mom]

I'm wondering two things:

1) if there is some specific thing that they are concerned about at Downtown Disney

and 2) if the problem is an overzealous security team.

I'd bet it is a little bit of both.

Does anyone have any official connections with Disney? Are they able to address this behavior and explain it once and for all?

I'm sure if word got out about a specific concern on the part of Disney, "photography fans" could be more respectful of Disney's needs.

This is just not making any sense and that's what seems to be needed here. An explanation about the need for this kind response is well warranted.

Marlton Mom

[Geoff_M]

I'm just curious to what the main cause of concern is that the security has. Is it terrorist related; or not wanting the images to be used for commercial use??? And if anything, there should at least be postings of such warnings; especially in a popular tourist destination where many people take pictures. I bet that 99.99% of Disney guests think it's ok to take pictures ANYWHERE on Disney property (of course not sectioned-off areas, or places for only CM's though).
I think you can be rest assured that the "concern" is that the shooters are engaging in commercial photography or are editorial (news) photographers working on-site without notifying the WDW PR department. Taking photos at WDW to sell is a no-no in Disney's eyes without approval. And if you're part of the media working on a story, they want to know you're there and what you're "up to" in case they want to assign you a "helper" to both make sure you can get what you need... and keep an eye on you.

[photo_chick]

Both incidents were at downtown Disney... Is it possible that one of the third party vendors in DTD has an issue with commercial photography or something?

[MICKEY88]

Both incidents were at downtown Disney... Is it possible that one of the third party vendors in DTD has an issue with commercial photography or something?

I remember reading something before about the House Of Blues being involved in a lawsuit with a photographer, if I recall right, they are very protective of their image..

[GrillMouster]

Trey is a well-known photographer with a large audience and influential friends (in the photography community). He has had several WDW pictures in his HDR portfolio for a long time, and I think he's worked with the Disney company on those images. Thankfully, Trey is handling the situation in a mature way. He's putting a spotlight on the topic without picking a fight. This is just the kind of attention necessary for Disney to take another look at how they're handling security at Downtown Disney (where the problem seems to be concentrated). I'm still doubtful that anything will change. The photographers being negatively affected by Disney's security team is a very small, niche subset of its overall customer base.

My feeling on Trey's situation is that it wasn't completely unreasonable. Frankly, I'm surprised that he didn't have ID on his person. Always carry ID; A Disney room key isn't enough. I'm not so sure that four security guards were necessary; two or three of them could have been better used elsewhere on property.

[zackiedawg]

Well I'll be there in 2 days for my next trip up, and I'll most certainly be spending a chunk of time at Downtown Disney with a DSLR, bag of lenses, and a tripod, and taking plenty of photos - so if they are doing any special form of crack-down on photography in general, I'll find out about it. So far, on past trips I have yet to experience this phenomenon.

Then again, I do carry ID with me, I won't be using my photos in any professional manner or for sale/profit, and I am more than happy to answer questions from security in a friendly and open manner, so we'll see if any of those factors may be playing a part.

Either way, at least this photographer seems to have been in a much better place mentally to interact with security without overreacting or elevating the situation, and presented the incident in a fairly objective and straightforward matter.

[Groucho]

I've done my fair share of lugging a tripod around Downtown Disney at night and have never been harassed. The internet makes it easily for an isolated incident to get blown up (no pun intended!) bigger than it is.

I agree about the ID - why would you only carry your "keys to the kingdom" card with you? For one thing, last time I checked, there is still the possibility that there will be a problem with the finger reader and you may be asked to show your ID.

I'm leaving tomorrow and will be doing a couple late nights at MK and some time at DD (though maybe not with the tripod); I certainly don't expect any harassment but I will certainly report back if I am.

[Daisy14'sDH]

I've done my fair share of lugging a tripod around Downtown Disney at night and have never been harassed. The internet makes it easily for an isolated incident to get blown up (no pun intended!) bigger than it is.

I agree about the ID - why would you only carry your "keys to the kingdom" card with you? For one thing, last time I checked, there is still the possibility that there will be a problem with the finger reader and you may be asked to show your ID.

I'm leaving tomorrow and will be doing a couple late nights at MK and some time at DD (though maybe not with the tripod); I certainly don't expect any harassment but I will certainly report back if I am.

I got asked for ID once when I was buying a couple drinks for myself and DW, glad I had ID on me! I think things are being blown out of proportion on the good ol' intraweb!

[JoeDif]

I think you can be rest assured that the "concern" is that the shooters are engaging in commercial photography or are editorial (news) photographers working on-site without notifying the WDW PR department. Taking photos at WDW to sell is a no-no in Disney's eyes without approval. And if you're part of the media working on a story, they want to know you're there and what you're "up to" in case they want to assign you a "helper" to both make sure you can get what you need... and keep an eye on you.


You hit the nail on the head with this one. My guess is both incidents were 1% security related and 99% commercial photography related.

[Groucho]

You hit the nail on the head with this one. My guess is both incidents were 1% security related and 99% commercial photography related.
Probably but how does this affect those amateurs who run Disney photo sites whose main purpose is to sell photos? (Well, there's one blatant example I'm thinking of.) I still wonder what Disney's stance is on such things. I would imagine that they don't particularly like it but either think it's not worth their time to do anything about or haven't due to potential bad PR.

I'm still kicking around ideas for a book so I might need to find out myself one of these days...

[photo_chick]

I know some things at Disney are protected and you are not supposed to sell images taken of them without permission. I think it comes down to how much Disney wants to enforce this. I don't think the small number of people selling images is really a concern, and since these incidents were both in Downtown Disney I still think it was more than likely a third party who has asked that something be done.

[Groucho]

Actually, it brings to mind this sign, at T-Rex in DD:

http://www.groucho.org/pics/50126-3/WDW2010-270.jpg

Maybe there are some third parties who don't take kindly to too much photography going on. (Though I'm still not sure what they mean by "video photography"... video from a mostly-still camera? Any video?)

[Master Mason]

I think they have much less control over what people do with pictures taken in DTD then they would from one of the parks, since you don't have to pay admission to get into DTD.

[Experiment_626]

Maybe there are some third parties who don't take kindly to too much photography going on. (Though I'm still not sure what they mean by "video photography"... video from a mostly-still camera? Any video?)That is a bit confusing -- maybe they meant video in general, and didn't want to say "video-taping" because so many people don't use tapes anymore. Or maybe it is deliberately ambiguous, so they can respond on a case-by-case basis.

[photo_chick]

Maybe they just left the "or" out of thier sign and it should read video or photography.

[Geoff_M]

Probably but how does this affect those amateurs who run Disney photo sites whose main purpose is to sell photos? (Well, there's one blatant example I'm thinking of.)From theme parks to sporting events, the primary means of trying to stop unauthorized sales of photos is to try and control it on the "front end" instead of the back. A credential release with "editorial use only" restrictions and venues enforcing "camera policies" are an easier and much cheaper means to stopping such sales than trying to sic your lawyers on the sellers once they've obtained their images. Disney cornering every dSLR owner and asking them their intentions isn't going to yield many potential "bandit" shooters, my guess is they think (right or wrong) the guys with tripods and "pro" equipment are more likely to be trying to make a dime off of Disney.

[MICKEY88]

that is a fairly common term..

video photography.... as opposed to "still photography"...

[ukcatfan]

Maybe they just left the "or" out of thier sign and it should read video or photography.

No, they do not care about photography there. I was taking all kinds of pics in there and so was everyone else. BTW, it is a really good restaurant! The burgers are incredible!!!

[Uncle Greg]

No, they do not care about photography there. I was taking all kinds of pics in there and so was everyone else. BTW, it is a really good restaurant! The burgers are incredible!!!


They got to you, didn't they? You had to say something nice or they wouldn't let you shoot. I knew it! How did they make you crack?

They're watching us right now, aren't they? Well they can't censor all of us. I say we make a sta

[Daisy14'sDH]

:love:They got to you, didn't they? You had to say something nice or they wouldn't let you shoot. I knew it! How did they make you crack?

They're watching us right now, aren't they? Well they can't censor all of us. I say we make a sta

From his testimony I figure they comp'd him some burgers...

[pointandshoot]

No, they do not care about photography there. I was taking all kinds of pics in there and so was everyone else. BTW, it is a really good restaurant! The burgers are incredible!!!

I eat there Monday. Burgers it is!

My daughter has been eyeballing my 5D MKII. Was think about loading it up on a tripod and letting here fire away at DTD. Would be interesting getting ID from an 11 year old.

With all the folks planning to be down next week, we should line up a row of DSLRs and shoot. They would need a SWAT team of mall cops to stop us.

Seriously, I expect this is a phase that will eventually pass.

[Daisy14'sDH]

Lol, that would be interesting, every night for a month to have a minimum of five people with DSLS's and tripods there for a month solid.... wonder what they would do?

[Groucho]

that is a fairly common term..

video photography.... as opposed to "still photography"...
I think the standard term is "videography". A quick Google search finds that coming up about 5x as much as "video photography", which seems to be mainly used by a few small educational classes.

No, they do not care about photography there. I was taking all kinds of pics in there and so was everyone else. BTW, it is a really good restaurant! The burgers are incredible!!!
I like it there though it is loud! Both times I've gotten the chicken pot pie, which is huuuuge and very good! My wife's gotten the fish tacos both times and really liked them. Unfortunately, I made the mistake of getting the $5 drink in the big bone souvenir glass... I didn't realize that it was carbonated, and I can't stand carbonation, so it was basically a $5 glass. It was also so sweet that even my son couldn't drink it! I think I got a shake the first time, which IIRC was quiet good. Very fast service, too!

[dmccarty]

Both incidents were at downtown Disney... Is it possible that one of the third party vendors in DTD has an issue with commercial photography or something?

That is my guess as to why the guard stopped for a chat. Malls can prohibit photography. My understanding is that some of the stores do not want their stores and store fronts photographed for competitive reasons. Seems pretty stupid to me. Yes I get get a great photo with my DSLR but someone with an iPhone can get a really really good photo of the store front as well. It really makes no sense.

I wonder if the guard stopped for a chat because the photographer was near non Disney stores.

Years ago when we stayed at CR I took my Benbo tripod in its carry back up to the California Grill to go out on the observation deck to take photos of the fireworks. I got some stares, like who is the nut with the big bag and why is he here, but that was all. :rotfl:

Thankfully the blogger did not act like an idiot and get on his high horse about his "rights." I have read to many incidents where the photographer takes something very innocents and turns it into a Federal case. And they make the rest of us photographers look like arrogant putzes.

The flip side is that a US Law Enforcement Officer much less a security guard CANNOT take your camera, film, or these days memory card unless they have a warrant. There might be an exception for Federal Government installations but I don't know how they can Constitutionally take your property without a warrant. And I don't want to be the test case to find out. :rotfl2:

Later,
Dan

[photo_chick]

We're protected agaisnt unresonable search and seizure, but it does not matter with mall cops anyway. They have no legal rights to do much but escort you from the property if you do not comply with what they ask.

[phalynx]

Maybe I have missed it in all of the posts but perhaps the main reason photographers are being harassed in DD is that it is Disney property, but unlike every other main location at DW, DD doesn't have a bag search to enter. Perhaps in Disney's mindset they consider the bag search at the gates to be the first line of defense for anything concerning. Without the bag search, maybe they take more interest in people with bags and gadgets. I would believe there was more concern at DD than at the other parks and I also believe that there was some over reaction by security. A good "investigator" knows by the time you have answered a couple of questions what your intentions are. Disney security, whiled trained, are likely not fully trained investigators and maybe more "wanna-be's". That being said, I am glad they are there and that they have concern. I also wish they would recognize photographers just taking pictures.......

[zackiedawg]

Actually, and this is maybe just my opinion...I think this is just an example of how internet can turn nothing into something. You don't have a trend of Disney security harassing or even questioning all photographers...what you have are two cited cases of photographers who claim to have been confronted for no reason, one who reported it matter-of-factly and the other who turned it into an event, neither of which do we know both sides of the story as to why Disney felt they should talk to those persons and what their reactions or words might have done to prompt a more severe response. Two one-sided stories without facts, out of how many hundreds or even thousands of photographers who pass through Downtown Disney every week without ever seeing security? I've walked around with several lenses and a DSLR on a tripod with a wired remote cable release at night - count me in the masses who had no issues or confrontations.

Too many unknowns here to know A. how often this happens, B. what Disney's policy is, C. Why those two photographers were targeted for questioning, D. Whether the guard's actions or words escalated things, E. whether the photographer's actions or words escalated things, F. what the guards' side of the story is. No offense to the two photographers involved in this, but without all of those answers, it seems wrong for anyone here to take sides one way or the other on the issue, unless they have personally experienced the same type of encounter and know they were not the cause of or fuel to the fire.

[WillowBelle]

Well said Justin.

[Master Mason]

Maybe I have missed it in all of the posts but perhaps the main reason photographers are being harassed in DD is that it is Disney property, but unlike every other main location at DW, DD doesn't have a bag search to enter. Perhaps in Disney's mindset they consider the bag search at the gates to be the first line of defense for anything concerning. Without the bag search, maybe they take more interest in people with bags and gadgets. I would believe there was more concern at DD than at the other parks and I also believe that there was some over reaction by security. A good "investigator" knows by the time you have answered a couple of questions what your intentions are. Disney security, whiled trained, are likely not fully trained investigators and maybe more "wanna-be's". That being said, I am glad they are there and that they have concern. I also wish they would recognize photographers just taking pictures.......

The bag searches at Disney are esentially worthless, they only stop the people from bring glass bottles and stuff like that. Someone could walk in with a gun in a shoulder holster and no one at the security counter would bat an eye, because it wasn't in the bag.

It's really nothing but a feel good measure.

[JoeDif]

The bag searches at Disney are esentially worthless, they only stop the people from bring glass bottles and stuff like that. Someone could walk in with a gun in a shoulder holster and no one at the security counter would bat an eye, because it wasn't in the bag.

It's really nothing but a feel good measure.


I totally agree with you there. I didn't want to bother with the bag check on a few occassions so I basically put some equipment (flash, extra lens, battery, CF cards, diffuser, etc.) into the cargo pockets of my pants.

Who is to say what I could smuggle into the parks in those pockets.

[ukcatfan]

The bag searches at Disney are esentially worthless, they only stop the people from bring glass bottles and stuff like that. Someone could walk in with a gun in a shoulder holster and no one at the security counter would bat an eye, because it wasn't in the bag.

It's really nothing but a feel good measure.

I totally agree with you there. I didn't want to bother with the bag check on a few occassions so I basically put some equipment (flash, extra lens, battery, CF cards, diffuser, etc.) into the cargo pockets of my pants.

Who is to say what I could smuggle into the parks in those pockets.

Not to get too far off topic, but I have heard that the bag search is more of a crowd control device so that undercover security and security watching video monitors have more time to spot people that look out of place or suspicious. (and to keep people from bringing in too much outside food :thumbsup2)

[JoeDif]

Not to get too far off topic, but I have heard that the bag search is more of a crowd control device so that undercover security and security watching video monitors have more time to spot people that look out of place or suspicious. (and to keep people from bringing in too much outside food :thumbsup2)


That actually sounds like a more logical explanation

[Experiment_626]

(and to keep people from bringing in too much outside food :thumbsup2)We've brought in two meals for three people and no one has said a word about it. I think their only concern about outside food is that you not bring in so much that it looks like you might intend to sell it in the parks.

[MarkBarbieri]

I resent being treated like I’m some sort of photographer. The officer who stopped me had absolutely no evidence that mere photography was my intention, so what right did he have to detain me and delete my photographs.

http://newsarse.com/2010/08/06/terrorists-sick-of-being-treated-like-photographers/

[RBennett]

http://newsarse.com/2010/08/06/terrorists-sick-of-being-treated-like-photographers/

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

[Marlton Mom]

http://newsarse.com/2010/08/06/terrorists-sick-of-being-treated-like-photographers/

:rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2:

I'll be on line shopping for the easel attachment for my tripod.....

:hug:

Marlton Mom