Disney Announces Big Changes To Parks

[CR Resort Fan 4 Life]

http://www.wftv.com/news/23682597/detail.html

[kate_wdw]

Thanks for posting this. I'm excited to see that the Main Street Electrical Parade will be back. Spectromagic is nice, but I think the Main Street Electrical Parade is truly magical. The music takes me right back to childhood.

[Oglet]

If they are really serious about getting more people in the parks then offer the same kind of payment plans for annual passes that are offered at Disneyland. Half of the local community cant afford to pay $1000+ for a average size family.

Vent over

[ramona]

Thanks for posting!

[pat fan]

Really? They want MORE people in the parks? I love WDW, don't get me wrong, and we're going again next month, but sheesh, it's already crazy crowded like heck, I really don't want MORE people there, especially as we can only go during the summer!

BTW, I am psyched about MSEP! We saw it on our first trip when DS was 7 and can't wait to see it again on his HS graduation trip!

[Donut23]

Disney is stuck between a rock and a hard place because they simply didn't plan ahead. Operating profits are down....even after agressive cutbacks the last 2 years.

Now they face a new challenge (Harry Potter) which will draw away a percentage of guests. What percentage....no one knows yet...the great debate.

Bob Iger just boasted "no more discounts" to the stockholders.....after announcing a 40% discount on rooms through October...don't forget dining!

Yes, they are rebuilding Fantasyland....but will not help this summer.

Moving a parade from California is not really "big" changes.....but at least the centerpiece of their "Nightastic" will not loose it's head the night before opening.

The centerpiece and BIG promo for Nightastic last summer at DL was the new dragon for Fantasmic. Yes, I have seen the dragon and it IS FANTABULOUS.....but the night before opening night of Nightastic......the dragon's head broke. Since it wasn't a story of the "headless dragon".....the dragon never made it's entrance until AFTER Nightastic was over in the fall. That would be an oops.

Life is tough for "fellow castmember Bob". Profits down, people in the parks on big discounts but not spending extra $$$, promises of no discounts to stockholders AND Harry Potter opening.

BIG changes at US vs. a great (and happily refreshed) night parade. Which park actually has the "big" changes?

[phorsenuf]

If they are really serious about getting more people in the parks then offer the same kind of payment plans for annual passes that are offered at Disneyland. Half of the local community cant afford to pay $1000+ for a average size family.

Vent over


I second this!

[sjs314]

I am glad to see the return of the Electrical Parade, although unless they keep it running into the fall/winter we will miss it this trip , but it does bring back happy memories of our first trip to WDW.

As far as attendance and discounts go I think offering the deep discounts the past couple of years is going to have a double edge sword effect on attendance,on the people planning vacations in the future if they do lesson the discounts. Many will just hold off going in hopes of a discount or go to US I am not talking just this year but next year also, humans are stubborn by nature and want what they want and will forgo that trip to Disney until they get the discount or FD like in previous years.

[skiingfast]

I'm not sure these are big changes. Certainly not break news either.

MSELP is on loan from DL while DCA phases in their new night time show the World of Color. If WDW would get it's act together they would make a copy of the MSELP and get rid of Spectromagic.

Keep in mind that Disney is well aware that cutting discounts will drop attendance. Also be sure that not everyone who visits is aware of free dining or room disctounts. People will still go.

So many people complain about the annual pass cost in WDW compared to DLR. WDW is already cheaper. The Low cost DLR passes have huge resrictions. If you can't take the cost all at once, then save the monthy payments you'd like to pay this year, so you can pay it all at once next year.

[Uncleromulus]

They said PROFITS were down.
Didn't see that attendance was down..?
Plus I thought Company profits were actually UP last year?
Don't get me wrong--they have to continually improve the Parks and attract new and repeat visitors.
It almost sounds like Universal and Harry Potter will put WDW out of business.
Somehow, I don't think so.:)

[skiingfast]

They said PROFITS were down.
Didn't see that attendance was down..?
Plus I thought Company profits were actually UP last year?
Don't get me wrong--they have to continually improve the Parks and attract new and repeat visitors.
It almost sounds like Universal and Harry Potter will put WDW out of business.
Somehow, I don't think so.:)

For Disney, profit was up compared to the year prior, but had taken a hit the previous year.
Attendence was up for disney though just slightly, while USF was down sharply.
If US is lucky they will recover their drop in guests with Harry Potter. I doubt they will get the guests at the expsense of WDW.

[DC7800]

If WDW would get it's act together they would make a copy of the MSELP and get rid of Spectromagic.


Walt Disney World always had a copy of the Main Street Electrical Parade, dating from the 70's, but it was sent to Hong Kong Disneyland. Hence, the need to borrow California's edition. I wouldn't want them to do away with Spectromagic, bui really the time has come for an all-new nightly parade, something to top both the classic MSEP and aging SpectroMagic.

What's curious is that the MSEP reportedly never ran at Hong Kong. So why is it (presumably) still there, and not returned to Florida?

[anthony2k7]

wasnt there rumours a year or so ago about dlp's fantillusion parade being part of the swap around? dunno what happened to that rumour - i assume fantillusion is staying at paris for now.

as for attendance being up but profits down and guests spending less - maybe thats got more to do with choice and quality of merchandise and food? :confused3 i do wonder if the bean counters have just got it very wrong with where they are going with the choice of products available and quality of food.

[Peter Pirate 2]

Man are they worried about Harry Potter. I never thought I'd see the day where WDW would be so obviously worried about a competitor - even though, in reality, they have none.

I think HP is going draw huge crowds this summer and WDW will feel it. Serves WDW right for treating us like $$$ instead of guests.

[Uncleromulus]

It'll draw huge crowds--for awhile.
But not for terribly long.
I do think it'll save Universal though, who's attendance figures have taken a BIG drop.

[Peter Pirate 2]

Uncle, I don't know how long Universal will draw but I'm sure the summer will belong to them.

During dinner last night I asked my daughters what they thought and both my 17 year old and college daughter from U Tampa think HP will be big for a long time. They both said kids are talking about HP at school and can't remember the last time their peers talked about Disney (although they both thought it might have been the original POC movie). My point is this may not be big to many of us older adults but the younger gen just may fuel some interesting results in the near future.

[Uncleromulus]

I agree-Potter will be the big thing this summer, for sure. I may even wander over if it isn't too much of a thrill park.
Of course I'm a Senior Citizen who never read any Harry Potter and saw only the very first movie. You are right in that it's the youngsters who will determine which theme park goes which way.
I imagine tho there will never be any outright winner in the duel and there are enough people to populate both parks.

[Orlando313]

Walt Disney World always had a copy of the Main Street Electrical Parade, dating from the 70's, but it was sent to Hong Kong Disneyland. Hence, the need to borrow California's edition. I wouldn't want them to do away with Spectromagic, bui really the time has come for an all-new nightly parade, something to top both the classic MSEP and aging SpectroMagic.

What's curious is that the MSEP reportedly never ran at Hong Kong. So why is it (presumably) still there, and not returned to Florida?

I would have a hissy fit if they permanently got rid of Spectro for MSEP. When they brough MSEP to MK a few years back (during the Millenium Celebration maybe?) we were all sorely disappointed. Yea, it's a good parade, but to replace Spectro with MSEP is not a good idea to me. If they are going to get rid of Spectro at all, then I second the idea of creating something brand new and amazing. I am happy to see MSEP for the summer and (and the new fireworks show) but then I hope they send it on it's merry way in August.

[JimB.]

Anyone know what the "Art of Animation" project mentioned in the arcticle means?

[Peter Pirate 2]

Just saw the DIS podcast video of HP and the theming looks pretty incredible. I'm thinking it may be bigger than I thought.

[bdoyledimou]

Anyone know what the "Art of Animation" project mentioned in the arcticle means?

This is the new Family Suites resort across from Pop Century.

[JoShan1719]

I would have a hissy fit if they permanently got rid of Spectro for MSEP. When they brough MSEP to MK a few years back (during the Millenium Celebration maybe?) we were all sorely disappointed. Yea, it's a good parade, but to replace Spectro with MSEP is not a good idea to me. If they are going to get rid of Spectro at all, then I second the idea of creating something brand new and amazing. I am happy to see MSEP for the summer and (and the new fireworks show) but then I hope they send it on it's merry way in August.

I agree. I may be the only person on the boards who feels this way, but I hate MSEP. I'm glad it will (well, should) be gone by the time our trip rolls around in September.

[Donut23]

They said PROFITS were down.
Didn't see that attendance was down..?
Plus I thought Company profits were actually UP last year?
Don't get me wrong--they have to continually improve the Parks and attract new and repeat visitors.
It almost sounds like Universal and Harry Potter will put WDW out of business.
Somehow, I don't think so.:)..


Sorry, but the last couple of quarters operating profits have been down....and remember, they are down from a year of recession. The company is not going to go out of business....but remember all the cutbacks, staff cuts, cut the quality of the food last year and profits still down from that......just not a good time for the hospitality business overall.

Luckily ESPN and ABC are kicking butt......the movie division is also doing very well so they can prop up the theme parks for a while. By the way, attendance was down last quarter by 6% but the "grownups" said it was simply Easter falling in a different quarter.

DL.....doing very well because their market is different in California. We try to go to DL at least once a year...Grand Cali is the most fabulous Disney hotel in our opinion. Ok..ok.....back to my note......each time we visit DL we are surprised how many locals we meet.

DH and I enjoy talking with others during our visits. DL has the advantage of being within an easy drive for millions of people. I know of one DISer who will drive an hour just to sit in the Grand Cali lobby for an afternoon.

The buzz for HP is big...and they have paid plenty for advertising compared to disney. Maybe disney is just throwing thier hands up for the summer and hoping things get better by fall.

Not sure....just know there are millions of children who have had a HP book in their hands. That is quite an audience.

[The_Admiral]

Harry Potter isn't changing anything long term and probably not much short term.

But, I also dont see how Disney could eliminate discounts. Their lodging rates, for Deluxe hotels anyway, are out of touch with reality. It would be one thing if they provided Four Seasons value but they charge Four Seasons rates and provide accommodations and service no better than your average Marriott or Hilton.

Ive stayed in Disney Deluxe resorts many times and rarely, if ever, paid their insane rack rates.

[Peter Pirate 2]

Harry Potter isn't changing anything long term and probably not much short term.

But, I also dont see how Disney could eliminate discounts. Their lodging rates, for Deluxe hotels anyway, are out of touch with reality. It would be one thing if they provided Four Seasons value but they charge Four Seasons rates and provide accommodations and service no better than your average Marriott or Hilton.

Ive stayed in Disney Deluxe resorts many times and rarely, if ever, paid their insane rack rates.

No offense but you kind of contradicted yourself. You say Potter probably isn't changing anything short term but in the next paragraph you say you can't see Disney eliminating discounts. But this would be a huge, huge concession to Potter all by itself. Then throw in all of these summertime upgrades at MK, which have never been offered before and I think you see a different picture. JMO though.

[The_Admiral]

Was not attempting to link the two issues.

The economy is driving Disney's use of discounts not what US is or is not doing.

[DC7800]

The economy is driving Disney's use of discounts not what US is or is not doing.

While the economy is a factor, what is primarily driving Disney's use of discounts is Disney itself.

Between declining quality (particularly in dining) combined with hefty price increases, and no major new attractions for two years (and a minimum of theme park investment prior to that), its little wonder Disney has to resort to steep discounts to get people in the door. Give people quality and with enticing new experiences they can't find anywhere else (you know- what Disney was once known for), and people will be lining up to pay even inflated prices.

[Peter Pirate 2]

Was not attempting to link the two issues.

The economy is driving Disney's use of discounts not what US is or is not doing.

OK, thanks. I see your point.

But I thought Disney already announced (or it was reported) awhile back that the discounts were coming to an end and yet with HP opening it seems they are even deeper discounts are on the way.

DC7800, nice post.

[dianeschlicht]

I haven't been over to this board in years, and I just wanted to say that this "news" is hardly news. I got something in mail announcing this over a month ago.

[MadToad]

I agree with most comments that HP will be the talked about event of the Summer and probably a bit beyond that. When I go this Fall for 10 days, Disney will lose one day's revenue from me when I venture over to see HP in all it's glory. And don't think Disney isn't conscience of losing that day - it's a full day of revenue that they will lose, and I won't be the only person doing it.

The flip side, however, is that while I'm in Disney this Fall, 3 other families will be joining us for 5 and 6 day stays, all with the intent to see HP for one day. Here's the kicker - they would not have scheduled the trip if HP wasn't opening. So while they'll lose my day (and one day from the others), they're going to gain 12 to 15 additional days that they would not have had HP not opened. That's a pretty nice off-set.

And as far as Iger announcing he'd like to end to the discounts, what better way to drum up immediate business? "Take advantage of them now while you can, because they won't be here forever"

Disney is a very well oiled marketing machine. They'll find a way to make owl salad out of owl feathers... :)

[FireDancer]

Harry Potter isn't changing anything long term and probably not much short term.



I agree with this. WWoHP is not a whole new park, it is a themed area of an existing park with some re-themed rides and what, one new ride? Back when we traveled to WDW we would always set aside one day for US. I think the majority of people, at least after the initial push, will still set aside one day for US or add a day onto their trips to do two days. I don't think very many of those days will come at the expense of Disney.

Of course there will be some people who will trade a day at Disney for US but I don't think anyone will replace their 4 or 5 days at WDW for 4 or 5 at US and skip WDW all together.

The most likely 3 scenarios as far as I can tell are these:


Family planned on spending x days at Disney at x at US/IoA anyway. They will still spend the same amount of days at both.
Family planned on spending x days at Disney and x at US/IoA anyway. They will spend the same amount of days at both but will sacrifice time at US for the extra time at IoA. Disney gets the same amount of time and US cannibalizes their own guests from one park to the other.
Family planed on spending x days at Disney and x at US/IoA. The WWoHP makes them want to spend extra time there so instead of staying less days at Disney they will tack on another day for their trip.

In all of those scenarios Disney loses nothing and in the case of #3 they actually gain if the guests are staying on property and driving to US.

We'll see if WWoHP makes any long term dents in Disney profits, and by long term I mean 5+ years, or if it is a short blip on time line. I'll be down there in Oct and Jan and won't be spending any time at US parks. If anything I will spend an evening at CityWalk.

As for big changes at WDW, the big change will be the Fantasy Land expansion. The rest of those mentioned are nice changes but I wouldn't call a temporary parade big. Iger wants to end discounts but the guests have gotten so used to them they have to be weened off of them like a heroine addict. I don't think HP had a lot to do with extending the discounts, perhaps some but even without WWoHP it would have been likely that some discount would have been announced anyway.

[Peter Pirate 2]

I agree with this. WWoHP is not a whole new park, it is a themed area of an existing park with some re-themed rides and what, one new ride? Back when we traveled to WDW we would always set aside one day for US. I think the majority of people, at least after the initial push, will still set aside one day for US or add a day onto their trips to do two days. I don't think very many of those days will come at the expense of Disney.

Of course there will be some people who will trade a day at Disney for US but I don't think anyone will replace their 4 or 5 days at WDW for 4 or 5 at US and skip WDW all together.

The most likely 3 scenarios as far as I can tell are these:


Family planned on spending x days at Disney at x at US/IoA anyway. They will still spend the same amount of days at both.
Family planned on spending x days at Disney and x at US/IoA anyway. They will spend the same amount of days at both but will sacrifice time at US for the extra time at IoA. Disney gets the same amount of time and US cannibalizes their own guests from one park to the other.
Family planed on spending x days at Disney and x at US/IoA. The WWoHP makes them want to spend extra time there so instead of staying less days at Disney they will tack on another day for their trip.

In all of those scenarios Disney loses nothing and in the case of #3 they actually gain if the guests are staying on property and driving to US.

We'll see if WWoHP makes any long term dents in Disney profits, and by long term I mean 5+ years, or if it is a short blip on time line. I'll be down there in Oct and Jan and won't be spending any time at US parks. If anything I will spend an evening at CityWalk.

As for big changes at WDW, the big change will be the Fantasy Land expansion. The rest of those mentioned are nice changes but I wouldn't call a temporary parade big. Iger wants to end discounts but the guests have gotten so used to them they have to be weened off of them like a heroine addict. I don't think HP had a lot to do with extending the discounts, perhaps some but even without WWoHP it would have been likely that some discount would have been announced anyway.

While I don't agree with all of it, this was a very good post.

One thing you and others haven't allowed for is people going to Universal/IOA for one day to see HP and end up really liking either HP or Universal/IOA or both. These are great parks and while they are different and smaller than the WDW experience, the smaller can really be a positive for some and a %, maybe not a great one, will find that most of what people refer to as Disney 'magic' is really just hoekum and a good time is available to them at Universal too.

[Donut23]

While I don't agree with all of it, this was a very good post.

One thing you and others haven't allowed for is people going to Universal/IOA for one day to see HP and end up really liking either HP or Universal/IOA or both. These are great parks and while they are different and smaller than the WDW experience, the smaller can really be a positive for some and a %, maybe not a great one, will find that most of what people refer to as Disney 'magic' is really just hoekum and a good time is available to them at Universal too.


You may be onto something. US is going to be attractive for families with older children who are ready for thrill rides....especially families with boys who have outgrown pixie dust. If they go over to checkout HP because the kids are begging to see it....and they notice everything else...this could be the beginning of a little problem. You know boys....they will want to ride the crazy thrill rides and WDW certainly has nothing to compete with US type thrill rides.

I'm not sure a family will spend a week outside Disney ....but if they venture over to Sea World....GREAT shows there, maybe a day at Kennedy Space Center....that could be 3 or 4 days away from Disney for families who have been "full-week'ers".

I'm not talking about the "rabid DISers" like we are.....but not all guests to Disney have the loyalty we have. Having said that...DH and our Disney travel friends are already planning a US/Seaworld trip extension to one of our regular disney trips in 2011. Don't worry....I'll be the SANE one quietly sitting on the bench with all the bags and cameras while the grown-up kids ride the crazy rides!

[skiingfast]

HP will not ruin Disney's summer. Be real, it's not a possibilty.

In thirty years Disney has just gone up and up. In this same time 3 competitors came in and didn't take Disney down. They just became and are a sideshow for some.

Disney has played it just right that a huge amount of people won't even come with a car and US isn't even on thier mind.

You can look at the few special cases where people are coming to see HP on thier WDW trip but this isn't the status quo.

[Peter Pirate 2]

HP will not ruin Disney's summer. Be real, it's not a possibilty.

In thirty years Disney has just gone up and up. In this same time 3 competitors came in and didn't take Disney down. They just became and are a sideshow for some.

Disney has played it just right that a huge amount of people won't even come with a car and US isn't even on thier mind.

You can look at the few special cases where people are coming to see HP on thier WDW trip but this isn't the status quo.

pixie dust.

[KINGBOBOFTHENORTH]

I don't think very many of those days will come at the expense of Disney.

I think you're being short-sighted. Had Disney purchased the HP franchise you'd be drooling all over yourself about it. Sure there are some purebred Disney fans that will never set foot in Universal. But there are a LOT of people out there that are going to be intrigued enough to give up 1-2 days of their Disney week to give Universal (and in particular Harry Potter) a try. Probably not the families with the little tykes in tow or only younger girls, but those with the older kids or just boys! Now that HP is open and the reports are flowing-in about how incredible it is, how it's taking theme park rides to the next dimension, etc, etc, the craze is only beginning to mount.

And following right on the heels of this is Legoland Florida which is going to cater to nearly everyone's smaller kids. Sure it's a day park but that's a another day lost by the Mouse.

BobK/Orlando

[Donut23]

HP will not ruin Disney's summer. Be real, it's not a possibilty.

In thirty years Disney has just gone up and up. In this same time 3 competitors came in and didn't take Disney down. They just became and are a sideshow for some.

Disney has played it just right that a huge amount of people won't even come with a car and US isn't even on thier mind.

You can look at the few special cases where people are coming to see HP on thier WDW trip but this isn't the status quo.


Disney just announced their advance reservations for the balance of this year is down 10% --- with an "uptick" seen recently. I guess it's the 40% discounts.

That's 10% down from 2009.

Here are comments from Orlando paper.


The top executive at the Walt Disney Co. said Wednesday that business is picking up at Walt Disney World and Disneyland.

Disney Co. President and Chief Executive Officer Bob Iger said hotel reservations at the two resorts have continued to improve in the month since the company reported earnings for the second quarter of its fiscal year. Although executives said at the time that future bookings were running 10 percent behind last year’s pace, they also noted that they had seen a very recent uptick.

With the brightening outlook, Iger said Disney remains committed to eliminating by next year the widespread discounts it has been using to sustain theme-park attendance during the economic downturn. Those promotions have helped keep Disney’s theme parks full but have also eroded their profit margins.

The accelerating bookings “would lead us to believe that our prediction in terms of weaning ourselves of the discounts was a good one,” Iger said.

During Disney’s second fiscal quarter, which ended April 3, attendance at the company’s U.S. theme parks fell 4 percent from a year earlier. That figure included a 6 percent drop at Disney World and flat attendance at Disneyland.

[skiingfast]

If you read the article closely it is talking about what happened a month ago. The current offers hardly affected those numbers.

Also I'll mention it again. The discounts this summer are not as large as the ones they ran last summer.

I'm also surprised it wasn't mentioned in the article but the fiscal quarters account for different days of the year in 2010 as compared to 2009. This absence was probably to drive the point home by the author.

This probably also explains why things are accelerating as well.

[Donut23]

If you read the article closely it is talking about what happened a month ago. The current offers hardly affected those numbers.

Also I'll mention it again. The discounts this summer are not as large as the ones they ran last summer.

I'm also surprised it wasn't mentioned in the article but the fiscal quarters account for different days of the year in 2010 as compared to 2009. This absence was probably to drive the point home by the author.

This probably also explains why things are accelerating as well.


You are absolutely right. With the low advance reservations they choose to offer discounts which drives reservations.

I don't know about you....but I think 40% is still a pretty good.


We have taken advantage of some exceptional castmember discounts....especially on the cruise ships this year. I admit...last year we couldn't get away enough to take advantage of all the castmember discounts.

I wonder how many will return next year if fellow castmember Bob eliminates discounting as he plans (actually he planned to do away with discounts THIS year). Many have gotten very comfortable with deep discounts....as you pointed out....not as great THIS year vs. last.

Attendance history has been down for a while and profits way down from 3 years ago. I know last quarter they said attendance was down because Easter fell in a different quarter than the year before. I suspect they are feeling the loss of many of our friends in Europe now that the exchange rate is not nearly as strong as before for them.

The good news for the parks is the movie division is kicking butt and taking some of the stress away from the not-currently stellar parks division.

[disneyphilip]

Give people quality and with enticing new experiences they can't find anywhere else (you know- what Disney was once known for)...

And is STILL known for!

[Disney's Folly]

I just don't get it. We're going to be in Disney October 2-9 with free dining. I figured that i would actually start the 7 day park hopper the day we get there. And end it the day we leave. So that actually left me short one day, in the middle of our trip. That day we're going to spend the morning/afternoon at US to basically see Harry Potter (and probably Spider-Man and Jurassic Park and some of the water rides). But that night, we're spending our anniversary at Narcoossee's. Sure it's free dining plan, but it's an evening with Disney.

I only made the decision to utilize this day completely out of the parks when I realized that our arrival and departure days left us with enough time to go to the parks. If we didn't do this, we would've merely used that last day to hang around the hotel or to go to DTD or spent $10 more to get the 8-day pass. Disney lost no money with me other than perhaps what I might have spent on for lunch the day at US. They still got me for 7 day park hopper, 7 nights at Yacht Club, and all the money i'm going to spend on food beyond what i'm getting free.

I LOVE the Harry Potter series and have enjoyed Universal excursions a few times in the past but I just don't think it offers enough beyond a few "in" franchises. And I honestly don't know anybody who travels to Florida just to go there, usually it's a minor tack-on to a major Disney stay. I imagine many will do the same as me. Find a way to fit it in and probably in a way that doesn't really cost Disney that much, especially if you're like me and spending upwards of $400 a night in one of THEIR hotels.

[Peter Pirate 2]

And is STILL known for!

Nah, DC7800 got it right.

[ahoyle]

I consider myself a pretty big Disney fan. We normally take a trip to Orlando at least once a year. With that said, I think Disney will take a decent size hit in the short term, and possibly the long term. We just got back last month from a week in Orlando without visiting Disney, and it was as good as any Disney trip. We visited Busch Gardens, Sea World, Aquatica, and both Universal Parks.

Next year when we go back, or maybe this year for a quick trip, we have to go to Universal over Disney again (despite my preference to go to Disney). My son and Fiance are both huge Harry Potter fans. I think its the 25 and under crowd that Disney needs to worry about. Those just starting families grew up on Harry Potter, and if they take a once every few years trip down to Orlando, I think a lot of them will choose Universal. If cost isnt an option, maybe they will do both, but both parks make it more economical to do the whole week deal.

I just don't know how much of Disney's attendance is from loyal, go often type visitors, versus people going every few years.

[malampsdisney]

I agree the MSELP takes me back to my childhood. We are going in mid september with our 3 children. It will be their first time. I am so bummed that most of Fantasy land will be torn up and the MSELP will be gone! Couldn't they wait till Oct. Taking out in Aug. is so WRONG! Summer isn't even over!

[anthony2k7]

Disney just announced their advance reservations for the balance of this year is down 10% --- with an "uptick" seen recently. I guess it's the 40% discounts.

That's 10% down from 2009.


Quite a lot of that has got to be because of the very delayed free dining offering for american guests surely?

But the lack of investment they've made in the last year has got to be causing a drop in bookings for the regular visitors as well. I cant really think what they've done in the last year other than the space mountain big refurb which seems more like they were just trying to keep it going rather than raising the game on it.

As for Harry Potter, the way I see it, I actually think Disney should be thankful for potterland in the short term - at least someone is doing something to get people into FL/Orlando. Potterland is surely a one day thing, but people arent going to travel half way around the world for the day so the chances are they'll still stay at disney, or at least visit disney on their trip to see potterland. If universal hadnt done potter this year, all those people may well have just stayed home.

[Oglet]

Nah, DC7800 got it right.

I agree! WD Entertainment in particular has become somewhat of a joke in my opinion.

Add a new name to a old parade, bring back an old parade (and add some led's and dimmers to tinks float) , rename fireworks and promote it as a major change. Re-branding and a re-theme isn't what Disney should be known for... Imagineering has become nothing more than a cosmetic change department.

There are only so many different things you can do to goofy and his bike float and I believe that for the price guests pay to get in they deserve far more.

I did notice lots of nice new lanyards to peddle... maybe the creative genius is in the marketing and sales departments.

[Donut23]

I agree! WD Entertainment in particular has become somewhat of a joke in my opinion.

Add a new name to a old parade, bring back an old parade (and add some led's and dimmers to tinks float) , rename fireworks and promote it as a major change. Re-branding and a re-theme isn't what Disney should be known for... Imagineering has become nothing more than a cosmetic change department.

There are only so many different things you can do to goofy and his bike float and I believe that for the price guests pay to get in they deserve far more.

I did notice lots of nice new lanyards to peddle... maybe the creative genius is in the marketing and sales departments.



Very well said. Thank you.

What also worries me is Disney has been known for doing it RIGHT....over-build.....make sure it lasts.

New examples.....the Yeti and the Fantasmic Dragon in DL which missed the entire Nightastic season last year because.....he lost his head during rehearsal. He was the centerpiece of advertising but didn't make his debut until September. Now I WILL say.....that dragon is WICKED-GOOD<----just not built well enough the first time.

[lockedoutlogic]

Very well said. Thank you.

What also worries me is Disney has been known for doing it RIGHT....over-build.....make sure it lasts.

New examples...the Yeti and the Fantasmic Dragon in DL which missed the entire Nightastic season last year because.....he lost his head during rehearsal. He was the centerpiece of advertising but didn't make his debut until September. Now I WILL say.....that dragon is WICKED-GOOD<----just not built well enough the first time.

I don't know about disneyland....but the yeti at AK was built by an outsourced company...which went bankrupt quickly after.

They will continue to try...and have big blunders like this...to outsource everything.

But somethings can't be.


as far as their "reinvestment"...this has and will most likely continue to be a joke. All capital expenses are simply to either build more units that generate profit beyond general attendance (vacation club...and merchandise lands like the new fantasyland) or a way of outsourcing more chunks of the property/ operation (the four seasons, the westgate project, the conversion of pleasure island to complete outsourced retail)

disney is stock price driven...and you will never be able to separtate that from the "amusement" side of it again. Things are done to generate revenue (not attendance...REVENUE...and that doesn't come from ticket sales), and therefore the reason for expansion/ addition will never be "because it's cool"

not so in the past...but those days are decades in the rearviewmirror. So don't count on anything.

harry potter is not, nor ever will be, a legitimate threat to WDW. the numbers show that out. Disney is so dominant that nothing a "competitor" will ever do will have any kind of possibility to carve out a big enough chunk to threaten Anaheim. The numbers have always played this out: the more "competition" - the more money and attendance ends up at lake buena vista. Symbiotic relationship...win/win (even when they are "losing")

Iger and the financials have said why the discounts will end. And it makes perfect sense.
The heavy discounting brought alot more clientele who were "budget oriented" or attempting to squeeze in visits they hadn't thought possible.
Great for them, bad for disney. Because they didn't buy enough stuff. That is where the profit is made (a shockingly high percentage) - at the gift shop.
So the choice has been made...go back to catering to the more "privileged" clientele...decrease the attendance a little...and know what exactly you're getting when somebody books a trip.
So it was nice while it lasted...now they want full price...which is the history of WDW. Full price is standard (people think that that isn't/wasn't possible...but it is/was)

so there you go

[Donut23]

I absolutely agree.

Outsourcing in Disney's Song of Joy the last few years....just ask "castmembers" who were outsourced in the last year or two. disney now pays less and is no longer responsible for any benefits Disney=winner.....employees=not so much. I guess this explains why some people are finding less pixie dust from some castmembers.

Sadly the outsourcing of the Yeti and probably the Fantasmic Dragon at DL are very good examples of the decline in quality disney is producing compared to quality in the past.

Ok, it sounds like World of Color is an exception - thank goodness!

But hey....we must all stand up and CHEER that Disney is a For Profit Corporation.....even if it IS at the expense of their staff and guests.

[skiingfast]

as far as their "reinvestment"...this has and will most likely continue to be a joke. All capital expenses are simply to either build more units that generate profit beyond general attendance (vacation club...and merchandise lands like the new fantasyland) or a way of outsourcing more chunks of the property/ operation (the four seasons, the westgate project, the conversion of pleasure island to complete outsourced retail)

disney is stock price driven...and you will never be able to separtate that from the "amusement" side of it again. Things are done to generate revenue (not attendance...REVENUE...and that doesn't come from ticket sales), and therefore the reason for expansion/ addition will never be "because it's cool"

not so in the past...but those days are decades in the rearviewmirror. So don't count on anything.

Disney is expanding or reinvesting currently at a high rate. It just not all going into WDW. Iger or Staggs noted that they don't forsee future spending at any high rate once current projects are done.

Disney though has done plenty to our benefits as a stock price driven coporation. This is why there are resorts and parks in WDW. I think Disny (DIS) was listed on the NYSE in the late fifties. At least post buiding DL, and much of the money was to buy DL from it's original owners.

What should be kept in mind about how Disney invests is that it is not a park company. It is first and foremost a film company.

[anthony2k7]

I don't know about disneyland....but the yeti at AK was built by an outsourced company...which went bankrupt quickly after.

They will continue to try...and have big blunders like this...to outsource everything.

But somethings can't be.


as far as their "reinvestment"...this has and will most likely continue to be a joke. All capital expenses are simply to either build more units that generate profit beyond general attendance (vacation club...and merchandise lands like the new fantasyland) or a way of outsourcing more chunks of the property/ operation (the four seasons, the westgate project, the conversion of pleasure island to complete outsourced retail)

disney is stock price driven...and you will never be able to separtate that from the "amusement" side of it again. Things are done to generate revenue (not attendance...REVENUE...and that doesn't come from ticket sales), and therefore the reason for expansion/ addition will never be "because it's cool"

not so in the past...but those days are decades in the rearviewmirror. So don't count on anything.

harry potter is not, nor ever will be, a legitimate threat to WDW. the numbers show that out. Disney is so dominant that nothing a "competitor" will ever do will have any kind of possibility to carve out a big enough chunk to threaten Anaheim. The numbers have always played this out: the more "competition" - the more money and attendance ends up at lake buena vista. Symbiotic relationship...win/win (even when they are "losing")

Iger and the financials have said why the discounts will end. And it makes perfect sense.
The heavy discounting brought alot more clientele who were "budget oriented" or attempting to squeeze in visits they hadn't thought possible.
Great for them, bad for disney. Because they didn't buy enough stuff. That is where the profit is made (a shockingly high percentage) - at the gift shop.
So the choice has been made...go back to catering to the more "privileged" clientele...decrease the attendance a little...and know what exactly you're getting when somebody books a trip.
So it was nice while it lasted...now they want full price...which is the history of WDW. Full price is standard (people think that that isn't/wasn't possible...but it is/was)

so there you go


whilst I agree for the most part with what you said, it seems the merchandise side of WDW hasnt been told this is the plan because what they're doing just isnt going to work with guests who do have the money to spend in the gift shops when there is no choice in the shops.:headache:

The merchandise teams are still on their drive to standardise everything (removal of resort specific items for example) and its not even quality items they're putting out in all the shops - its pretty cheap stuff compared to the quality Disney used to sell.

So, if there is the same cheap shirt in every single shop on property people with money might say "Im not buying that it looks so cheap!" where as if they'd go back to unique quality items they might have guests that would buy 2 or 3 different shirts.

[crocko]

Disney is expanding or reinvesting currently at a high rate. It just not all going into WDW. Iger or Staggs noted that they don't forsee future spending at any high rate once current projects are done.

Disney though has done plenty to our benefits as a stock price driven coporation. This is why there are resorts and parks in WDW. I think Disny (DIS) was listed on the NYSE in the late fifties. At least post buiding DL, and much of the money was to buy DL from it's original owners.

What should be kept in mind about how Disney invests is that it is not a park company. It is first and foremost a film company.

Actually.....according to the annual report, Disney is foremost a TV company.
$16.2 billion in Media Networks revenues (only area to increase in revenues in 2009). $4.8 billion in Media Networks operating income.

Parks & Resorts is 2nd -- $10.7 billion revenues, $1.4 billion income
Studio (movies) is 3rd -- $6.1 billion revenues, $0.2 billion income
Consumer Products -- $2.4 billion revenues, $0.6 billion income


I would say that in most people's minds, Disney is a parks/resort place and they rely on new movies (generally) for the creation of new characters/franchises to fuel the parks and the products.
BUT....TV is what is currently making Disney its big bucks....and I would point to ESPN as probably being a cash cow for the company. The affiliate fees that ESPN can demand is impressive. Despite a few other sports networks that have popped up and do okay, ESPN seems to get bigger & better and pretty much holds a monopoly on sports entertainment/news.

[lockedoutlogic]

Disney is expanding or reinvesting currently at a high rate. It just not all going into WDW. Iger or Staggs noted that they don't forsee future spending at any high rate once current projects are done.

Disney though has done plenty to our benefits as a stock price driven coporation. This is why there are resorts and parks in WDW. I think Disny (DIS) was listed on the NYSE in the late fifties. At least post buiding DL, and much of the money was to buy DL from it's original owners.

What should be kept in mind about how Disney invests is that it is not a park company. It is first and foremost a film company.

i agree with your premise...especially the last sentence.

Disney is a media company...which means the parks are somewhat of a nuisance - and let's face it: they still exist because they provide huge amounts of operating capital for other endeavours.

Which doesn't paint a good picture for park enthusiasts moving forward now, does it?

Where we differ is "reinvestment"
As far as "reinvestments"...they aren't really reinvesting save for perhaps the fantasyland expansion (and that is gift shop driven for sure). Timeshares pump more patrons into the gift shops...errr...."parks". third party development makes them glorified landlords and profit sharers. Parks in China are (to my best estimate) not about turnstiles but rather about getting sweet longterm manufacturing/ trade deals - the parks are PR for the chinese government (again..my opinion...but it makes alot of sense). And "fixing" bad parks built from 1989 - 2005 really can't get you alot of credit. simply making horrible construction "acceptible" shouldn't really get you a prize.

Resorts were built first to keep patrons more days...then shopping areas were added around the resorts to draw discretionary money from the consumers. These are pretty well documented facts at this point.

[ConcKahuna]

Al Weiss always was a fan of outsourcing. He was starting that trend long before Eisner left.

[lockedoutlogic]

whilst I agree for the most part with what you said, it seems the merchandise side of WDW hasnt been told this is the plan because what they're doing just isnt going to work with guests who do have the money to spend in the gift shops when there is no choice in the shops.:headache:

The merchandise teams are still on their drive to standardise everything (removal of resort specific items for example) and its not even quality items they're putting out in all the shops - its pretty cheap stuff compared to the quality Disney used to sell.

So, if there is the same cheap shirt in every single shop on property people with money might say "Im not buying that it looks so cheap!" where as if they'd go back to unique quality items they might have guests that would buy 2 or 3 different shirts.

yeah...i'm with you

unfortunately, our position is that of wishful-thinking disney park nuts:mickeyjum

the sheer profit of the bulk operation (the wal-mart model) in retail is way more to offset the "losses" due to lack of product diversity.

and as others have pointed out: most travelers aren't like us: they're there once or twice during their children's entire childhood. that means it doesn't matter if they sell boardwalk t-shirts or wilderness lodge robes (my alltime favorite item)

there was an estimate that a $24 mickey plush cost disney less than 1-2 dollars to manufacturer, package, and ship in bulk from the far east (this was around 2000 or so that i saw the theory)....that makes the rough return (after labor and other operational costs were added) to be somewhere in the 600% range...there is no way to fight that - none.

So this "trend" isn't an experiement...it's a proven cash cow formula.

now, the suggestion that "specialized" merchandise should cost more is a great one. I sure as heck would buy it...they could even do it through their online website to cut out operational costs and just have it shipped to me. I'm all for it.

But as it stands i buy less and less when we go (2-3 times a year on average)

The only way this will change is if people stop buying...so there goes that plan.

maybe if say...the dvc rooms...would stop room charging...a flag would go up and they might think a little about it. that could happen.

or if they continue to expand their info gathering net around their customers (their almost sole consistent program for 20+ years) and they see what types of things are bought by which types of customers...then a secondary market of merchandise could be implemented. that could happen.

but no...as of now...we won't see a return the to glory days of the 80's & early 90's when you didn't mind being bombarded by shops because everything was different and THAT was part of the "magic"

[lockedoutlogic]

Al Weiss always was a fan of outsourcing. He was starting that trend long before Eisner left.

Al Weiss was a "face". Somebody who was put their under the auspices of being a florida "friendly" native.

he was/ is an ineffective manager who "presided" over several misteps in the property's development and who was an active participant in decimating the workforce and with it - the quality standards in favor of cost accounting.

He, Paul Pressler, and Lee Cockerell are the first 3 pictures on the "rogue's gallery" at the WDW wall of shame

[lockedoutlogic]

Actually.....according to the annual report, Disney is foremost a TV company.
$16.2 billion in Media Networks revenues (only area to increase in revenues in 2009). $4.8 billion in Media Networks operating income.

Parks & Resorts is 2nd -- $10.7 billion revenues, $1.4 billion income
Studio (movies) is 3rd -- $6.1 billion revenues, $0.2 billion income
Consumer Products -- $2.4 billion revenues, $0.6 billion income


I would say that in most people's minds, Disney is a parks/resort place and they rely on new movies (generally) for the creation of new characters/franchises to fuel the parks and the products.
BUT....TV is what is currently making Disney its big bucks....and I would point to ESPN as probably being a cash cow for the company. The affiliate fees that ESPN can demand is impressive. Despite a few other sports networks that have popped up and do okay, ESPN seems to get bigger & better and pretty much holds a monopoly on sports entertainment/news.


what you say it completely correct...


...unfortunately, that is bad for the future of the amusement side. disney continues to move further and further into digital and "virtual" products while the attention and value of the tangible properties are pushed to the backpage by the suits (as it should be...i can't really say that isn't how it should be)

The problem is that having employees, benefits, utilities, and mechanics to keep the "fantasylands" open is not as important as it once was.

disneyland was unique and highly profitable when it was created...as was WDW.

now the real money is moving elsewhere...and left behind is the "drive" to build new and better things in the parks...because there isn't as much money to be made in it.

this we know: if they hadn't laden the parks/ resorts with gift shops decades ago...Disney would not bother with the headache of operating the parks. they would have been leased/ sold to outside operators for percentages and licensing fees awhile ago.

but the gift shop business is still very profitable. help us all if it ceases to be so in the future:sad2:

[skiingfast]

Where we differ is "reinvestment"
As far as "reinvestments"...they aren't really reinvesting save for perhaps the fantasyland expansion (and that is gift shop driven for sure). Timeshares pump more patrons into the gift shops...errr...."parks". third party development makes them glorified landlords and profit sharers. Parks in China are (to my best estimate) not about turnstiles but rather about getting sweet longterm manufacturing/ trade deals - the parks are PR for the chinese government (again..my opinion...but it makes alot of sense). And "fixing" bad parks built from 1989 - 2005 really can't get you alot of credit. simply making horrible construction "acceptible" shouldn't really get you a prize.

Resorts were built first to keep patrons more days...then shopping areas were added around the resorts to draw discretionary money from the consumers. These are pretty well documented facts at this point.

Disney investing in it's parks division is currently huge. It's not just Fantasyland that's a small piece of the puzzle. DCA is getting a big chunk and attendance is rising there.

I'll admit DCA was a plan B for doing something when Westcot didn't materialize. Team Disney Anahiem spent a lot building it but it included a hotel, a refurb of a hotel and DTD. Still DCA the gate is becoming a real park real quick. It may double its gate entries when all is said and done.

But Disney is expanding on and building another gate in Hong Kong plus another hotel. It's expanding Paris and it's building two new cruise ships.

Investment in China is so far small. Honestly they may end up with another TDL in Shanghai. A Disney park they don't own. But many people aren't aware that China already has two miserable Disneyland like parks based around a Castle like the other Disneylands. I'm sure the audience is there, but who knows if they care about quality.

[crocko]

Disney investing in it's parks division is currently huge. It's not just Fantasyland that's a small piece of the puzzle. DCA is getting a big chunk and attendance is rising there.

I'll admit DCA was a plan B for doing something when Westcot didn't materialize. Team Disney Anahiem spent a lot building it but it included a hotel, a refurb of a hotel and DTD. Still DCA the gate is becoming a real park real quick. It may double its gate entries when all is said and done.

But Disney is expanding on and building another gate in Hong Kong plus another hotel. It's expanding Paris and it's building two new cruise ships.

Investment in China is so far small. Honestly they may end up with another TDL in Shanghai. A Disney park they don't own. But many people aren't aware that China already has two miserable Disneyland like parks based around a Castle like the other Disneylands. I'm sure the audience is there, but who knows if they care about quality.Very true. As an overall company, the big chunk of Disney's investing capital cash outflows goes to Parks & Resorts -- for 2009, the big cash outages were DCA and the 2 new cruise ships.

Disney brings in about $5 billion in cash each year, of which $1.5+ goes to Parks & Resorts capital spending. Another $2+ billion typically goes to pay off debt or buy back stock.

[ConcKahuna]

He, Paul Pressler, and Lee Cockerell are the first 3 pictures on the "rogue's gallery" at the WDW wall of shame

For the time I was a cast member and Lee was working at WDW, he was great with the cast. I can't say much about his business decisions, but he was one of the only execs that made it a point to wander the parks and resorts and find out what was important to the CMs.

On the few occasions where i had dealings with Al (including a "company sponsored" Christmas party at his house for local politicians where i worked valet), he was condescending to the cast members and didn't seem to care at all about their working conditions or happiness.

[lockedoutlogic]

For the time I was a cast member and Lee was working at WDW, he was great with the cast. I can't say much about his business decisions, but he was one of the only execs that made it a point to wander the parks and resorts and find out what was important to the CMs.

On the few occasions where i had dealings with Al (including a "company sponsored" Christmas party at his house for local politicians where i worked valet), he was condescending to the cast members and didn't seem to care at all about their working conditions or happiness.

the word on the street, behind the costume, outside of the polyester was that lee cockerell was great to the face of the rank and file (not to be discounted...that's important)...but was just as onboard with the breaking of the workforce and eliminating specilization (which is exactly what Michael and the Boys did systematically from shortly into his tenure until the end and continuing through Bobby) as anybody else...weiss included.

people opine all the time about the diminishing quality, appearance, and standards....

that IS the reason...the eliminating of ANYTHING that made an hourly worker special or valuable...be it pay, supervisory roles, or the fact that it is standard practices at every wdw site is to imply that you are completely replaceable (and thanks to the policies...you are)

so with all due respect to lee...he knows full well that things were worse when he left it than when he got it. new rides and shows aside