car #1 or #2 people???

[Maistre Gracey]

Although I usually post on the DVC board, I have been reading here.

It seems to me that most here (at least lately) are car 3 or 4(if I understand the car thing correctly). Quite frankly, I have never heard such pessimism and negativity. If someone who has never been to WDW were to read this board, they would think that a trip to WDW would be like a trip to Hell.

I personally feel that a trip trip to WDW is still a n incredible experience, with service and magic up the wahzu.

PLEASE DON'T GET ME WRONG, I am a firm believer that we need a variety of opinions (including both extremes) to make a solid, informed decision.

I personally feel that some are over exagerating the Eisner issue, and I am firmly between car #1 and #2.

Can we please here from some optimists here?!!! Who else feels the same way? :cool:

[manning]

Oh boy!!!!!!!!!

[DVC-Landbaron]

Maistre Gracey, since you say you usually don’t post here, let me welcome you!!!

I too, as you can see by my handle, own a DVC interest. And I LOVE it!!! Recently, I spent three week in Old Key West and still didn’t get enough of it!! It was truly splendid!!!

It seems to me that most here (at least lately) are car 3 or 4(if I understand the car thing correctly).Yeah!! It confuses me too and I was here when it all came about!! :crazy: It seems they keep rewriting the definitions. But no matter how they define them I always seem to be driving car #3!!

Now, you may find that surprising, given the “glowing” thumbnail sketch I gave about Old Key West. I mean, how can a person have a “splendid” time, for three weeks no less, and still claim ownership of car #3??

Well, the answer is pretty simple. I strive to be as educated as possible and as informed as possible, about all things Disney. Most of us have followed this company for a good many years. Personally my love affair with Walt Disney’s way of doing business started in 1968!! All through the seventies and eighties I FAITHFULLY visited as often as time and resources allowed. And in the late nineties I (and I would guess most of us) found the Internet and this site in particular. I stuck with this site over others because the posters here, by and large, do not flame alternate viewpoints. They are VERY, VERY intelligent! And the amount of Disney business knowledge bantered about here, in a very casual and offhand way, quite simply blows me away!!!!

But at the same time I discovered this site, this wealth of knowledge and free exchange of intellectual concepts, I noticed a lot of little things (and a couple major ones) at Disney that bothered me quite a bit. At first it was just a feeling. A feeling that ‘something’ had changed. Something fundamental. Something basic. And that something wasn’t good! It felt BAD!!

After spending some time defending this “feeling” I started to become more articulate in my writing and more cognizant of the problem I now recognized as a fundamental change in philosophy. Quite simply their “way of doing business” was no longer what I had fallen in love with way back in 1968!! And that saddened me a great deal. :(

PLEASE DON'T GET ME WRONG, I am a firm believer that we need a variety of opinions (including both extremes) to make a solid, informed decision.On this board we do have a great many ‘pessimists’ (I like to call the realists ;)) and a great many optimists! But lately, even the optimists have some basic philosophical issues with Disney’s current management. And it is because of the great wealth of knowledge, and the flame free atmosphere on this site that we can all learn from each other and can begin to see through the “official” spin and a fresh coat of paint and realize that the ‘core’ of this Disney concept we’ve ALL come to know and love is not what it once was or what it potentially can be.
Quite frankly, I have never heard such pessimism and negativity.Well, I hope the above paragraph pretty much answered this. It is NOT “pessimism and negativity”, but a stark and blunt dose of reality. What the newspapers and analysts are now saying within the past few days is exactly what many of us have been saying the past few years! (And as an aside I gotta tell ya: IT FEELS GREAT!!!!)

I think I can say for all of us Cars #1 through #3, that when we are in Dinsey we buy into the Magic and Pixie dust as much (and maybe more so) than any other person on the fae of the planet. But when we discuss the philosophy of bringing that magic to life, we can ALL see that this administration does not have what it takes.

Does this make a little more sense now?

[JeffH]

I used to regularly bring common sense to the senseless on this board (effectively shutting down many negative discussions), but there are those who continue to paint an unjustified negative picture despite all the positive justified (with many examples) counter points. I got flamed often by a couple of pessamists, who couldn't face reality, and many jumped to my defense, including the moderators. Then there was this one a-hole flamer who sent me grossly (and completely unjustified) insulting personal mail attacking me as a person, who I reported and yet is still allowed to post on this board.
I just found that it was no longer worth it to get upset and fight with people with such a negative perspective, and be unjustifiably flamed and insulted. So I ignore most of this now, as probably do most of those 'in cars 1 and 2'. I have found that this site is pretty well controlled by the pessimists, so I prefer Intercot when it comes to constructive Disney discussions.
-
All I know is that I've been going to WDW regularly since it opened, as a teenager, young adult, husband, adult, father, alone, with friends with wife, with family, and now the last 8 years with my wonderful daughter, and it is better (more magical) than ever. And since my daughter has been born, it seemed to me that WDW has constantly improved with her (and me) in mind...in particular the buffets (I love to eat), the character buffets (for her), the live entertainment (for both of us), the new attractions, the parades, Kidcot stations, Fantasmic, pin and card trading, and the entire Animal Kingdom. We have a wonderful and magical time every time we go to WDW.

We have also stayed at most of the resorts including the Contemporary, Poly, Grand FL, Music, DInstitute and Caribean Beach, and have visited many of the others. We have also attended many events including many Mickey's Christmas parties, and Halloween parties, New Year's Eves, Soap's weekends, Star Wars weekends and many more.
So I know from where I speak.
The only time that I was ever 'disappointed' with WDW would have been when MGM first opened (around 1990). I was single, the Magic Kingdom held little excitement for me, EPCOT was becoming boring, and MGM was 'empty' and VERY boring. I had been on all the attractions dozens of times, hated lip-syncing live acts, didn't care about parades, and they were cutting back on the extravagant menus in the World Showcase (China used to have a huge menu featuring many items from all 4 'sections' of China, and I had the Peking Duck there once and it was great...that disappeared with the cutbacks as well). Since Tasha was born in '93 so much has happened it is just amazing.
To us the magic of WDW is a combination of:
The theming, landscaping and attention to detail, which WDW continues to richly embrace, in the parks and resorts, and even more deeply with the opening of the deeply researched and themed Animal Kingdom;
The Cast Members, who are still helpful, happy, and still lie through their teeth (when appropriate).
The characters, who are everywhere, now, and you can now eat with them!!!
The parades, some which encourage interaction with the children, and are now at all 4 parks.
The miles of walking, well, no, maybe not the walking.
And now the LIVE shows.
And the yet to be experienced cruises.
-
I do not, however see "the world" through rose colored glasses and do see where things are wrong or could be done better and have sent my complaints to WDW and posted them as well, we just know how to enjoy ourselves with what WDW offers, which is much more and at a higher 'level' than anyone else and appreciate it greatly.

My current complaints/suggestions would be...
1) Why isn't the Animal Kingdom open until at least sundown or later??? It's senseless to close a park at 5pm when it doesn't get dark until 8pm (especially now that the park opens at 9am instead of 7am like when it first opened)? We love this park and love to see the Tree of Life and shows after dark. And although we are annual passholders, the people who pay full price deserve a park to be open longer than 8 hours!?!
2) They need better weather judgers, several parades we have wanted to see were cancelled or sped through (eliminating interaction) despite no rain or lightening. We center our days around the parades and it is very upsetting when a parade gets cancelled even after the rain has subsided.
3) Where is Beastly Kingdom? Considering it is part of the 'core' of Animal Kingdom, it should be built ASAP...it's like having the Magic Kingdom without Fantasyland open yet.
4) Add more pavilions to Epcot (in both Future World and the World Showcase, especially), there's just so much open space, and maybe an east to west friendship boat.
5) Move the noisy, smelly, themeless, out-of-place Tomorrowland Racetrack to the other side of the train track and convert to electric toon cars riding through a happy toon track, then through a evil toon track (behind a future Villian's area), then back to a happy toon track. Then expand ToonTown, and Tomorrowland.
6) All meals in the castle should be character meals
7) Ariel (with legs) should do meet and greets in the other parks
8) Restore the water fun to Donald's Boat in Toontown
9) Add a playyard at Epcot (a Kid'sWorld pavilion in the World Showcase)

I am not a Disney stock holder, so whatever happens 'behind the scenes' doesn't really matter to me...it's what I see at WDW that counts, as far as I am concerned.

[DaveO]

I would say I am in Car #1.5 And mostly lurk as my posts pointing out positive items always get ripped apart and told they are invalid points while all the negatives are treated as gospel.

NO MORE !!!!!

I am going to post now as much as I can on the positives and forcing the doomsdayers to back up thier statements with hard data such as:

More cutbacks than other parks
Other parks are better themed with thier new attractions.
No ETicket attractions are being added (Mission:Space)
Vaccum sweepers where never 'Sweeping people out in the good ole days' They were I remember.

The list goes on ....

I too would like to see some things change and have learned from what some of the negative folks have posted such as LB ... BUT ... we do need some balance and I am going to try and help the pendulum back to the middle (in terms of posts that is).

Dave O.

[manning]

A lot of agree that magic is there. What we are concerned about is the trend. The amount of magic is going down.

If you want to get an example of more negativeness, go over to the resort forum. It appears complaints are on the rise. Anyway that seems to be the feeling.

[DaveO]

I think a lot of it is a self fulfilling prophecy.

People see what they want to see both the positive and negative.

Dave O.

[DVC-Landbaron]

I think a lot of it is a self fulfilling prophecy.

People see what they want to see both the positive and negative.I’m afraid I don’t understand this. Could you clarify?

I mean, I understand it from a surface view. A new coat of paint does wonders for a building, say Tiki in Disneyland. But you know, no matter how many times Paul had it painted, the wood underneath was still rotten and in the end, had to be replaced!!

I think many times we are talking apples and oranges, if not the entire fruit salad. Yes!! I still see a whole bunch of magic that has been carried over from the Walt regime. And I even see some Magic being added due to the philosophical doctrine that Walt created, that hasn’t been totally destroyed by the current administration. But in all honesty I see them, more an more, veering away from that ideology and focusing on a new type business plan, that quite frankly leaves me cold. I’m surprised that it doesn’t leave you, as well as all Disney fans, cold too.

So, what we’re talking about (at least I’m talking about) is underlying, fundamental and very basic philosophical concepts that guide the company. Not just a new and relatively inexpensive parade or a fresh coat of paint (which was probably painted during the day, in full view of the guests, once again spoiling the SHOW!!)

Just a thought to get us on the same page for the ensuing dialogue!!

[JeffH]

The amount of magic is going down
Perfect example of a negative comment without a shred of evidence to back it up, not even a single example, not one.
Whereas, last week, Tasha and I attended a BRAND NEW Princess Breakfast at the castle in Norway, you can't get much more magical than that...that represents a pretty big chunk of magic going up. I also noticed that ALL the live shows that were cut back after tourist decline after 911 (Pocahantas, Hunchback) were restored this summer, and SpectroMagic ran EVERY night again this summer (so where is the loss here?). The characters are back in the World Showcase (Aladdin and Jasmine in Morroco<who never left>, Snow White in Germany, Belle and Beast in France), you just have to look for them. The new Imagination ride is again magical (although there still could be a lot more added to make it better). My daughter has spent hours with Mickey, Pluto, Chip and Dale in the Annual Passholders lounge at Epcot.
Last Tuesday Tasha attended her first Tea Party with Alice in Wonderland at the Grand Floridian and had a marvelous time (although it is not brand new, it does represent one of the many newer magical experiences to be had at WDW).
I also, personally, think that FastPass had dramatically increased the magic thoughout WDW. I hate waiting in lines, I also hate trying to judge when a line is short enough (or will be short enough) to get into. With Fastpass, we get our show time, and while waiting for that time to come around enjoy another (no wait) show, shop, pin-trade, or enjoy a hot fudge sundae together. Fastpass has taken the rush, wait, frustrate out of the park experience and added a lot of time for the little things (which Disney has a LOT of) and simple togetherness. And that is especially magical to us.

As far as resort complaints increasing, do you think this could possibly be due to the increase in number of people staying at the resorts during the summer as compared to the relatively few before then since 911? (more people=more complaints...1% of 100 = 1, while 1% of 1000 = 10, the increase of 9 doesn't necessarily mean an increase in complaints, they are still at 1%)
I see them, more an more, veering away from that ideology and focusing on a new type business plan
Again, where is even one piece of justification?
I just got through listing many magical additions thoughout WDW that make our last visit more magical than the last.
Whether a parade is inexpensive to add or not has nothing to do with whether it is good and/or magical. Disney parades are second to none and the 5 parades currently running at WDW are each unique and magical. Just because Disney doesn't spend 99 gazillion dollars on each and everything doesn't make it less magical. Disney has a bottom line to pay attention to and if it doesn't it will GO OUT OF BUSINESS, so they have pay attention to all sides of WDW for our sake as well as theirs. It costs a lot of money to sustain their attention to detail, that most other parks simply ignore.
a fresh coat of paint (which was probably painted during the day, in full view of the guests, once again spoiling the SHOW!!)
When the Magic Kingdom was new, you didn't catch them painting during the day because IT WAS NEW and didn't need all that much painting. The concept of painting at night in the cool 100% humid Florida air is rediculous. We've spent 43 days at WDW so far this year and have yet to see anyone painting in full view, and if I did it certainly wouldn't spoil the show for us.

[DVC-Landbaron]

OK. I am leery about engaging you in conversation as I think we are speaking two different languages, or at least coming to the conversation from two entirely different levels. However, within your recent post I have one request for clarification, one question (a little sarcastic I’m afraid, but the issue really boils me) and, last but not least, even one item upon which we can totally agree!!

As far as resort complaints increasing, do you think this could possibly be due to the increase in number of people staying at the resorts during the summer as compared to the relatively few before then since 911?Could you please restate this. I’m afraid I’m a little dense. I really don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Thanks. I also noticed that ALL the live shows that were cut back after tourist decline after 911 (Pocahantas, Hunchback) were restored this summer, and SpectroMagic ran EVERY night.Now, you stress the word “EVERY” as if this were special. You do realize, of course, that we had twenty five years of TWO parades EVERY night during the summer, don’t you? So what’s restored? Where is the magical “second” parade? And please keep in mind that it doesn’t matter one whit whether you ever personally enjoyed the two parades, many did. I’m curious to know your philosophy on this issue.

And finally the agreement!! Perfect example of a negative comment without a shred of evidence to back it up, not even a single example, not one.Now, I think you realize that I disagree, totally, with the assumption that there is no backup. But that backup lies in understanding the basic tenets of Disney and in how corrupt they have become. (Hang on; the good bit is coming!!) ;)

I do agree that a statement like this, particularly to you, is entirely too subjective and therefore has no place in the discussion.

[DaveO]

LB - What I mean is that from all the negative press (yes - some is valid) that poeple go to WDW looking for things to go wrong. And maybe those items were ALWAYS there it is just without the microscope of the Internet folks were not looking. This just makes all the negative news reports bigger than the they actually are.

Again - I am not saying all is perfect in the world. And I actuall agree with SOME of what is said here.

I posted a while back in my post 9/11 trip that I too after hearing all the negatives here went looking for things to be wrong. I found everything as expected.

I guess the difference in our opinions is that I think some of the short-sided business practices - will be turned around 'soon'. It was done before and can be done again. Everything runs in cycles. Maybe Eisner will see the light or maybe he will be replaced.

This is what I would see as a turnaround in the next 12 - 36 months:

* EE restored
* Space a wild success and true E ticket attraction (like any mountain)
* True E Ticket anounced for AK
* Hours brought back to late 90's level
* Dump ABC and any other underperforming non core business or turn ABC around.
* Another mega animation hit - This will be MUCH harder than the Lion King days as the theaters are saturated with kid flicks.
* Clone Soarin in WDW (very cost effective)
* Clone a TDS attraction in WDW (very cost efective) add to Living Seas?

If NONE of these are done or similar I will be in Car #3 and will be renting my DVC points out a least every other year.

Dave O. Car#1.5

[DVC-Landbaron]

LB - What I mean is that from all the negative press (yes - some is valid) that people go to WDW looking for things to go wrongI agree!!! Fortunately, that ain’t me!! And from your posts, that ain’t you either!! See!! Already an agreement!! And maybe those items were ALWAYS there it is just without the microscope of the Internet folks were not looking.Well, there sure is a potential for that. But usually not with the issues I raise. They tend to run deeper if more intangible. They point to philosophical differences, rather that bricks and motor (or cheap parades and shows, if you will). And I think the standard, traditional hours is a perfect example of this ‘now vs. then’ scenario.
Again - I am not saying all is perfect in the world. And I actually agree with SOME of what is said here.I understand.
I posted a while back in my post 9/11 trip that I too after hearing all the negatives here went looking for things to be wrong. I found everything as expected.Perhaps it is your expectations that we should examine. Not that they were “right” or “wrong”, just that they may have been different and perhaps a little more… ahhh… well… forgiving than most. I really can’t say as I don’t yet know where your standards are set. Maybe we should start by defining that philosophy first?
I guess the difference in our opinions is that I think some of the short-sided business practices - will be turned around 'soon'.Many have said what you said here. And I clearly remember a certain sea faring adversary saying the exact same thing over two years ago. When I pointed out that ABC was a one hit “millionaire” wonder, he said he was certain that ABC would be number for years to come!! I derided GO.COM. He was certain it would lead the Internet industry!! And it went on and on. Perhaps you remember some of our conversations. When I asked how he arrived at this conclusion he said in two years I would see. All Ei$ner needed was a little time. And he also something to the effect of: It was done before and can be done again. Everything runs in cycles.Yet… Well. I think you get the point.

So, you are saying he (or Disney in general at least) needs 12 to 36 months and more importantly on their present course (a change in head mouse and I might agree with you). Well, that’s one hell of a window, but that doesn’t matter. I will ask you the very same question I asked my good friend back then. From their past actions and recent decisions, what in the world can you possibly point to that leads you to that conclusion? Quite frankly, I don’t see it!!

* EE restored
* Space a wild success and true E ticket attraction (like any mountain)
* True E Ticket announced for AK
* Hours brought back to late 90's level
* Dump ABC and any other under performing non core business or turn ABC around.
* Another mega animation hit - This will be MUCH harder than the Lion King days as the theaters are saturated with kid flicks.
* Clone Soarin in WDW (very cost effective)
* Clone a TDS attraction in WDW (very cost effective) add to Living Seas?You know I was looking over this list. And I’ve a question and then a comment. First: “Hours brought back to late 90's level”. What are late 90’s hours level and why not pre late ‘90’s level? (If you haven’t guessed, it’s an issue that’s very near and dear to my heart.)

Last year, or the year before the list may have read:

* Space a wild success and true E ticket attraction (like any mountain)
* BK in AK
* ABC (not dumped) but performing up to expectations (just a little tweaking)
* Peril Harbor a sure fired hit
* GO.COM finally on track
* And finally – just wait!!! Just you wait!! All you non-believers!! You’re gonna eat those words!!! JUST WAIT FOR DCA

Personally I’m tired of waiting for next year!!! I get enough of that from the Cubs and Bears!! And in the case of the Cubs, I’ve waited since the first decade of the 1900’s!! I can’t wait that long for Disney to turn around!!!

[DVC-Landbaron]

I GIVE UP!!!! And I apologize to all who may have followed this rather disjointed discussion. If you follow the posts at all you will find that I asked JeffH for some clarification on a particular issue: As far as resort complaints increasing, do you think this could possibly be due to the increase in number of people staying at the resorts during the summer as compared to the relatively few before then since 911? Could you please restate this. I’m afraid I’m a little dense. I really don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Thanks.And instead of playing fair and actually answering my question posed at 3:33 central time he decided to edit his first post at 3:54, excising any trace of the comment!!! FOUL!!!!!

I really don’t know if he does this on purpose or is just plain ignorant of good manners and common courtesy on the Internet!! Nothing like changing the contents of an original post to make your opponent look stupid!! But either way, tactics or ignorance, it doesn’t matter. I’m through!!

Well… anyway, I suddenly remembered why I do not engage him in conversation. :(

Again, sorry to all. From here on in I’ll gladly continue with DaveO only!!

[JeffH]

If a comment was not clear in the first place, why not clarify it...in the first place, so people don't have to read 2 posts (and all those between them) to understand it?
And instead of playing fair and actually answering my question posed at 3:33 central time he decided to edit his first post at 3:54, excising any trace of the comment!!! FOUL!!!!! Nothing foul about clarifying a post, especially considering how new this discussion is.
And contrary to your inaccurate claims, I did NOT delete ("excising any trace of the comment") or change anything, I mearly ADDED clarification following the items you questioned to make them clearer to the new readers. Just check your own quote, or did I change that too???
To your resort question I ADDED:
"(more people=more complaints...1% of 100 = 1, while 1% of 1000 = 10, the increase of 9 doesn't necessarily mean an increase in complaints, they are still at 1%)"
I also clarified by post dealing with your attack on my 'EVERY' by ADDING
"(so where is the loss here?)"
really don’t know if he does this on purpose or is just plain ignorant of good manners and common courtesy on the Internet!! Nothing like changing the contents of an original post to make your opponent look stupid!! But either way, tactics or ignorance, it doesn’t matter. I’m through!!
I did not delete the comment, so I'M not the one who is ignorant here. You asked me to clarify and I did.
Well… anyway, I suddenly remembered why I do not engage him in conversation.
Instead of crying foul, just edit your post accordingly...oh, but that would eliminate some of your meaningless criticizms of my post. By meaningless, I mean having nothing to do with the argument, only nitpicking to try to discredit the post as a whole.
...or crying foul and making inaccurate claims to try to discredit my post.
Again, sorry to all. From here on in I’ll gladly continue with DaveO only!!
Yes, I know, it's hard to argue with the facts and truth.
I'll go back and colorize the clarifications that I added at your request, just for you, then you can attack the color I choose.

[BRERALEX]

WOW this is debating at its finest!!!!!!

I used to be a super super optimist.

BUT magic kingdom used to be open till midnight in late august when i was kid not 6pm yes that was not a typo 6pm august 27th 28th 29th and then a big whopping 8 on friday (big whoop)

that hurt the magic ALOT for me.

And poorly conceived cheap rides have also hhurt the magic fo rme.

a misplaced aladdin spinner ruining the feel of adventureland. getting rid of carousel of progress which to me is sacriliges. and horrible sequals to make a quick buck on the video library has been turning me into (look at the something disney first in a negative way and THEN putting on my rose colored glasses as to before i joined the DIS when i had my rose colored glasses super glued to my face) Im going for rose colored lasik<spelling?

[DVC-Landbaron]

WOW this is debating at its finest!!!!!!Yes it is!! I agree. High concepts and exalted ideals!! Digging our way to the very core of the doctrine and trying to come away with substantial beliefs and substantive philosophies that we can discuss, dissect and examine regarding the Disney experience!! Yes!! It is very much “debating at it’s finest”!! And so much better than providing a shallow and mostly subjective list of “goods and bads”, don’t you think?

I used to be a super super optimist.As was I my friend! As was I!! I’m the guy that bought the Vacation Club, sight unseen. Just because it was Disney!!BUT magic kingdom used to be open till midnight in late august when i was kid not 6pm yes that was not a typo 6pm august 27th 28th 29thI did not realize!! I feel your pain!! That borders on a crime!!! Don’t these people realize that this type of action is gross negligence to the long term effect of not only their core audience, but of first timers as well!!?? What type of ‘experience’ are these people who need a map going to get with a closing time such as that?!?! We can negotiate the grounds blindfolded! I haven’t used a map, except in AK when it opened of course, for decades!!! Yet look how absolutely frustrating this is for us!! Imagine not knowing what you’re doing. You know, aimlessly wandering by the Peoplemover or Small World, and seeing a twenty-minute line and actually getting in it!!! I swear I saw that this July!! It was sad!!! How in the heck could they possibly handle a 6:00 closing at the end of August and come away with any kind of a meaningful experience!!?? WHAT A BUNCH OF BLOCKHEADS!!! DON’T THEY SEE THAT!?!? Or have they become so arrogant and so jaded with walking through the parks that they have truly forgotten what an overwhelming task it is the first few times?

And what do you think is the motivating factor behind this and the other things you mentioned. Because to provide a list and no thesis as to why the list exists, really doesn’t further the discussion. (I know, it’s self evident, but some people…. :confused: ) I say the reason is simple. Ei$ner is inept and just plain doesn’t GET IT!!

Anyone else have a differing view?

[BRERALEX]

What type of ‘experience’ are these people who need a map going to get with a closing time such as that?!?! We can negotiate the grounds blindfolded! I haven’t used a map, except in AK when it opened of course, for decades!!!

lololol Well for the first time i was thinking of getting maps when i get there because the website does say 6pm today but may not be so when i get there which is frustrating. and im hoping that when i get there the map will say maybe 1000 if im lucky or if im real lucky theyll throw in an enight<wait that just doesnt sound right?!! but thats another thread.

i was just trying to show how an optimist could turn into a pessimist. i was at work today reading Passporter not cause i need to learn something i know the book by heart along with Birnbaums (even the pictures) and disney for couples by the Perlmutters (an awesome book) but cause i love disney always have and swear they used to use subliminal messages I'm so addcited but the way park hours have been and lack of park quality (aladdin, dinorama, and lolololoo the chicken dance hotel lolol) im slowly turning towards, maybe cancun maybe vegas maybe some place giving me everything they got.

I feel disney isnt doing that anymore. theyre giving me the cheapest fastest and less thoughtout thing they can quickly to bring me back.

and thats why im more the pessimist now looking at the bad angle first and then trying to see the pixie dust

[JeffH]

I don't think ANY WDW theme park should close before dark.
It is absurd that Animal Kingdom closes at 5pm, especially now that it opens at 9am (not 8am or 7am like it used to). And more absurd to close the MK when there are no special events going on that evening.
The parks are so peaceful and beautiful after dark.
The price doesn't change so the hours should be more stable, and on event nights when the park closes at 6pm, perhaps the 1 day ticket price should be discounted accordingly.
I never go to the Magic Kingdom when it closes early, and this is my biggest gripe about the Animal Kingdom.
---
This doesn't mean that I think the parks should be open until midnight or 1am, though, just an hour or so after dark.

[BRERALEX]

but why not till midnight?

i have enjoyed so many nights just walking around mk at midnight hanging out enjoying the music enjoying being "home"
If boris becker was born centre court wimbeldon i was born main street WDW!!!!

and we can take that advice from the guide books and get a nap inbetween trips to the park cause we have enough time to do so!!!!!! i miss the good ol days.

AK i dont mind i can only stand being there till about noon if i get there at 800 anyways

[JeffH]

I just meant that I wouldn't expect them to keep the parks open until midnight every night (only on special occations and Saturdays), but I DO expect them to leave the parks open until at least an hour past sunset.

[Miss Park Avenue]

Originally posted by BRERALEX

yes that was not a typo 6pm august 27th 28th 29th and then a big whopping 8 on friday (big whoop)


The Magic Kingdom closes at 6:00pm in AUGUST??? I had to check the website to see if that was true!

It breaks my heart....it really does. I wish I could correctly convey my feelings to all the people that think I'm some kind of Disney Basher. It is simply not true. If I hated it that much I wouldn't be on discussion boards like this trying to learn more about it. I don't gripe about any of the changes happening at Sea World. I could care less about that place. I do care about Disney World.

Maybe I could compare my feelings about WDW's evolution to someone who has a novel that they love and read over and over. And when the movie comes out you go to see it and the director has taken liberties with what the book's author had written. It may be painful for you to watch it. Maybe huge parts of the story had been cut out and replaced with some seedy love scene just to bring people to the theaters. If you join a discussion group about the book and you all share your thoughts about the movie, you find some liked the movie, some hated it. Some like this part, but not that part and all have their reasons, BUT, all in the book discussion group there still LOVE the book!

My family has loved and visited Disney World for so long. I visited 8 times between '75 and '86 and took a long break and didnt return till '99. I've seen so many changes. Some I liked, some I didn't. (uh, I'm not going to make any lists) But, when I complain, it's only because I have very fond wonderful memories that I want my children to enjoy too. I don't want to see my favorite place on earth watered down, or cut short. It's painful for me to hear that is it being mismanged, hurt by the failings of a network I could less about. So much so that I have been cutting back on the time spent in the rumors and news board lately. It's too hard to hear.

[SnackyStacky]

I feel the need to weigh in here.

Hi Baron! Remember me? I'm still shotgunnin' in number 3.

Someone earlier reported that in speaking with someone from executive offices, surprise mornings were eliminated because the costs of opening an hour earlier were astronomical. The key word in that statement is cost.

Then, looking at the Magic Kingdom hours. There is only ONE reason that they would ever consider cutting Spectromagic during the week, and closing at 6:00. It certainly isn't because they were receiving complaints about that obnoxious parade and those ridiculous hours! I once again bring up the word cost.

Now, I move on to E-Ride Nights. E-Ride Nights, as I have heard (could be incorrect) were originally created to allow on-site, off-season guests to see the Magic Kingdom after dark. These are not being offered in the off-season. AND, best of all, I'm prepared! The people in May who had planned on them were NOT when ALL of them for the month were cut! They have taken out a HUGE portion of the magic. And why? Because of cost factors.

A few threads ago was the air conditioning debate. Someone commented about how the "magical air was being taken away". It has absolutely nothing to do with magic, as I said earlier. What it has to do with is comfort. They turned the AC to a warmer temperature in order to (once again) cut costs. Not only does this detract from the guest experience, it's just a dumb thing to do. If I can find a place to cool down, I'm a LOT more likely to stay in the park than if I'm sweating from here to high heaven. More guests in the parks mean more money spent in the parks!

These are all cost-cutting measures that detract from guest experience.

Do I b**** and bemoan every negative thing I see while I'm at Disney World? Far from it. I love it there. In fact, rarely a negative thing is heard from me while I'm in the parks, whether it relates to the park or not.

But while I sit here and read all kinds of posts about people who got to see SpectroMagic, and watch the kiss goodnight, it makes me very upset. Sure they're not raising the prices on admission this year, but I will have paid as much as the people there right now, and I don't get the opportunity to see those things. And yes, I know that I can do all the rides I want because the lines are short, but that doesn't correct the fact that I don't get to see the Magic Kingdom at night.

I could go on, but my point is that the current trend works toward money, and does not see any compromise between good business decisions and guest satisfaction.

My $.02 and nothing more!

[PKS44]

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
What type of ‘experience’ are these people who need a map going to get with a closing time such as that?!?!

Not to mention the people who wonder as you go by in Fastpass lines "Hey, how come they get to go on so fast?" (probably the same ones -though maybe not since they don't apparently read the huge ad for Fastpass on the maps).

Paul

[manning]

"(more people=more complaints...1% of 100 = 1, while 1% of 1000 = 10, the increase of 9 doesn't necessarily mean an increase in complaints, they are still at 1%)"
________________________________________


or more people and less staffing = more complaints.

I kind of go with less staffing leads to low moral = more complaints.

I have been thru several down sizings and they are not fun. You feel betrayed, have a lot more work to do, are angry. I think this is what is happening now. And it will get worse if they drag it out. The staff is down to show up for work, put in your time, go home and dread tomorrow.

Where did the 1% figure come from. If it's from Disney, yeah, the sun will rise in the west.

[PKS44]

To JeffH and Landbaron-please...if you edit a post just say "(I have edited this post in response for a clarification)" and then clarify---I am sure Jeff meant nothing underhanded, he just was trying to clarify and did not think how it might look, and I can see how Landbaron got the wrong impression...but just go back and delete that part of your post, if you want...we are all following along for the most part and don't need any flaming distractions...

I am in Car #3 and I think the best example of Disney thinking has been seen in the Disney stores, Millionaire, Character Caravan school of thought that if some is good, more is better- in the case of the stores and Millionaire it has weakened the product...the ever expanding use of Character Meet/Greets instead of new ideas also has weakened the product offered...c'mon, 20K? or line up to see a girl in a mermaid outfit?(okay, I like girls in Mermaid outfits, but if that is what I'm after I don't go to Disney and for the price of admission I am sure I could see a girl out of a mermaid outfit, if you know what I mean)Camp MinnieMickey? or BK?...EE or CC?

The problem is a willingness to do things which are counter to the Disney mission of the past-wherein we were to be their guest and put their magic to the test, wherein we would bring a heart that's full of wonder and let Disney do the rest...they are not doing the rest...they cut corners to save $$ rather than innovate-spinners and Millionaire 4 nights a week and sequels...-at the resorts moves have been made that lessen the guest's experience from the change from fresh to instant coffee to losing real butter and maybe even Air conditioning (I believe it, some don't)...

Some say these cost cuts are good business---On Sept 10th at 12pm EDT on TCM a film called Executive Suite dramatically plays out this question at a fictional furniture manufacturing company..it is cost cutter Fred March vs R &D guy Bill Holden and the last scene sums up the arguments and the problems with cutting costs to supposedly "help" the company and the stockholders...it was made 40+ years ago but it still applies in business and it very much applies to Disney...Watch it, and then let's all meet here to discuss...

Paul

[Planogirl]

I'm in Car No. 3 too and I hope that some people don't assume that I dislike Disney because of that. :( I have just seen many problems develop over the last few years and I care about these things because of my LOVE for Disney. The last thing I want to do is go to the parks and find problems. I want more than anything for Disneyworld to be the super place that I've always loved.

I hope that everyone can just agree to disagree and remember that we're all here because we love Disney. These are all only opinions after all even if some are wrong. ;)

[Maistre Gracey]

Okay, I apologize for only having time to skim the thread, so I may be a tad redundant. I promise I will read the thread thoroughly later.

First, I looked at the park hours for August, and I don't see where the MK is not open after dark.

August '02 schedule (http://disneyworld.disney.go.com/waltdisneyworld/parksandmore/parkhours/parkhoursindex?id=SEAllParksLocationCrit&date=82002)

Some of the cost cutting measures that may be in place, may be necessary. If the stock was down, and Eisner was making no effort to do anything on the cost side, I can hear it now...."What an idiot....there is nobody in the parks, and they keep them open until midnight". Or,..."Do they have to keep it 40 degrees in the line for TOT? Think of all the wasted money".

Cost cutting is just one arm of getting the company back on track. Disney is under no obligation (in fact it would be stupid) to reveal ALL their strategy for the long term. After all...we don't want to give all the info to the competition.

That being said, I agree with certain things that have been said, for example the Aladdin spinner in Adventureland. That looked rediculous from day one, but I still don't know if it was a cheapy attempt at a themed attraction, or a misplaced kiddie ride that might work in Fantasyland.

[Miss Park Avenue]

Maistre Gracey, click on your link and look specificly at the 25th, the 27th, 28th, and 29th.

That may not seem to be a lot of days in an entire month but think of the people who traveled from some other part of the country to be there that week. When I was a teen, that was ususally the time of year we went. Sort of a grand finale to summer. I feel bad for the people traveling there that week. :( :( :(

[d-r]

Actually, I think that the internet contributes to people's perceptions of negativity as much as the press does.

Here is an example. On the resorts boards, there are people posting wondering when the "rates" will come out for January, so that they can start planning their vacations. Of course the "rates" are out for January, they are talking about discounted codes - we've gotten so used to finding discounted codes through internet sites like these that people now think of them as the "rate." Those discounts - like AP rates, but also "code" rates - have traditionally been put out at the "last minute" usually quarterly, to help fill up bookings after rooms have been booked at rack rates. It has been documented that people are now planning their vacations at the last minute, with only a few months notice, and I wonder how much of that is due to people waiting for the "rates" to come out so that they can book at fire sale prices, rather than to the after effects of 9/11.

US Air has become the next airline to declare bankruptcy. The press reports that the hotels on I-92 are booking at a few dollars a night trying to avoid bankruptcy. It is well documented that attendance is down. Yet posters balk any time that the Disney corporation tries to save money. I honestly believe that they keep the park hours open based upon the attedance levels, and I have witnessed hours being extended based upon need. And yes, I visited for a week last May when the MK closed at 6 ever night, and yes, that impacted me because I was staying at wlv where the MK is the closest park. But you know what? I understood that there wasn't the attendance level to financially allow them to keep the parks open all night. Some posters on here use a logic that I do not completely understand. They want the parks to be open later - because the parks will be less crowded. The major reason that they seem to want the longer hours is so the crowds will be thinned out - but if the crowd is thinned out, how is economically viable to keep the park open those extra hours? I' m sure that all of us would love for them to keep the magic kingdom open a few extra hours for just us and our families to enjoy privately (for no extra money, too).

Heck, they kept them open a few years ago, why can't they do it now? Sure we know that attendance is down, but they should do it anyway, right? And don't even consider that they may have learned that it wasn't a good economic model when they did keep it open in the past. I think they model attendance levels and keep the parks open to the point of economic viability. Many of the same people who seem to cheer any sign of bad economic news for the Disney company - because it might oust Eisner - seem to be unable to understand that cut backs are necessary.

And another thing. We had reservations at Carribean Beach this sept. We were really disapointed to hear it closed, because we choose it because it was one of the places we hadn't stayed at together, and we weren't really interested in staying in a moderate. But you know what? Guest services really came through. Then I read on here about how negative it is presumably from people it didn't impact. Again, I don't like posting things on the internet about rates, because I think people read it and get set up for disapointment, so I didn't report the rate that we got - now there are pages and pages of this sort of information on the resort board so I don't feel so bad about it - we were offered savannah view at AKL for $99 per night. I've read on the resort board that some people got the polly for less money than they were paying rack rate at CBR. Yet, there are negative posts on here that no upgrades will be offered. I was really happy with guest services, felt a little like pixie dust for me, and I respect the company for choosing to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear by closing the resort at a time of low bookings and making improvements on the property. Good move, Disney.

Guess what, folks, the Disney company is in bad economic shape right now - so are a lot of other companies. That is the reality of it. I think they have made some really good moves to weather the storm. There are some things that I am not happy about, some things that I wish they would do differently (they seem to have decided that e-nights are only for peak season, when it seems to me that they would be a really good idea for off-season, but then, I don't have the data about sales figures to know that, do I?) I also read about Walt, and I can understand some of the comments that are basically "what would Walt do?" but right now is a time that you also have to ask "what would Roy do?"

I honestly believe that there are some people on here that search out any negative thing on the internet that they can find and post it here. "LOOK - somebody had a bad vacation - where has the magic gone?" I find myself often getting turned off by this board lately. There is less about rumors and news than there is about moaning and whining (and yeah, I remember how bad I got flamed a year or two ago for calling something whining).

DR

[Maistre Gracey]

d-r, excellent post. I agree with virtually everything you stated.

PS- Congrats on your AKL rate! :cool:

[Maistre Gracey]

Originally posted by Miss Park Avenue
Maistre Gracey, click on your link and look specificly at the 25th, the 27th, 28th, and 29th.

That may not seem to be a lot of days in an entire month but think of the people who traveled from some other part of the country to be there that week. When I was a teen, that was ususally the time of year we went. Sort of a grand finale to summer. I feel bad for the people traveling there that week. :( :( :(
Miss PA, true. There are four days in August that the MK closes at 6:00pm. I guess my point was to show that indeed the MK does have lots of evening time in August. I too, feel bad for the folks going at that time. My next trip is September, and the parks will close even earlier, but I knew that when I chose to visit at that time of year. I understand the parks can not stay open until midnight in non-prime season. :cool:

[mrtoadslastride]

d-r,

The main problem I have with you post is that although it may be accurate that Disney is in bad financial shape, I believe they are in this position because of their past dumb decisions. For example, paying $5 bill for Fox Family (I wonder if they would still be closing MK if they had that money???), the go.com fiasco, movies like Reign of Fire which lost a tremendous amount of money, and the list could go on and on. The current management team has run Disney into the ground during the last 8 years, and they are doing whatever they can to boost the bottom line. Regardless of the longterm consequences to the business.

Finally, I was a kid during the 1970's, but as I seem to remember the oil embargo (everyone drove to WDW at the time) and stagflation really hurt the economy. Did Disney ever close MK at 6 in August then? The economy had to have been worse then, but you didn't see Disney make the type of cuts they are now making.

The problems with Disney now has nothing to do with the economy, they are in a mess of their own making!!!

[Miss Park Avenue]

d-r, excellant post. That was the most well written post intended to put whiners like myself in my place. I read it a couple times.

I don't agree with EVERYONE's complaints on here. There are some things people write about and I think to myself, "So what? Get a life!" But everyone who's read any of my posts knows I have a problem with the MK closing before dark, NOT closing at 10 instead of midnight or enights verses later closings. Just closing down and running us all out before dark. There were a lot of us there at six that evening, a LOT.
But if the people running WDW are making cutbacks to adjust to what they can afford, sales figures, crowds, etc. I can live with that. I'd rather see WDW make cutbacks than to file bankruptcy and close. But if cuts are the result of the failures of ABC that is another story altogether.

[d-r]

When we first heard about the CBR closing in September we thought about going to universal, and called to see what the rates would be. Guess what, in sept. Universal and IOA close every night (including week end nights) at 6 or 7. At least at wdw epcot and the studios are open longer each night, and the MK is open later on weekends. I don't remember the specifics, but we were looking at the hours for cedar point while planning a trip over there and the weekend hours during the summer were basically the same or less than the MK's. (I'm sure that somebody is going to say that you can't compare WDW to IOA or cedar point, but people sure do when they add something new).

I've said on here before that I wish that they would alternate between the studios and the magic kingdom being open later on week nights, and I wish that they would have e-nights during the off-season. Of course I wish there were longer hours. I also wish that they would release the WWII disk with the treasures series this year as planned. Although the direct to dvd sequals don't really bother me because I just don't buy them, I wish that they would have used the energy to make something more creative. Iwish they would put in some big super e-tickets. I wish they had made a disney classics vol. 6 cd instead of staring over with a new #1. I wish there was more stuff in the disney stores. I wish the Disney channel would play a classic movie late at night again. I wish that all Auburn football games would be on ESPN. I wish they had a better beer selection at Big River. Etc. etc.

Yes, Disney is a complicated company, and the truth is if I was running it I would want to do it without ABC and the cable channels (besides the three disney channels), but I'm still not sure that buying the family channel was a bad decision. I'm wanting to see how that plays out. I understand a little bit about the game that is being played out with the cable companies about carrying channels, and so I understand that the reason for buying it was to have a little more leverage in negotiating with the cable companies. I'm really not sure if that was a bad idea or not, it may turn out that it was. I also understand what they were trying to do with go.com, but I think that it was a bad idea.

I also find AV's posts interesting when he makes the point that the parks are loosing money to pay for losses in other parts of the company (ABC, movies). I'm not sure that the best long term idea would be to cut those segments out that are loosing money right now. I think that ABC can be turned around - we'll see. I think that buying Monk was a good idea, and I look forward to seeing what they come up with with HBO. Alias is back. Heck, ABC sports is hands down the best, and Monday night football is coming soon (be sure to check out the opening game on Labor Day!!!:)

Again, though, the fact remains that attendance at the parks are down. If there aren't enough people to justify keeping four theme parks open late, then there aren't enough people -

DR

[mrtoadslastride]

Originally posted by d-r
Again, though, the fact remains that attendance at the parks are down. If there aren't enough people to justify keeping four theme parks open late, then there aren't enough people -

DR

Why??? According to posts in another thread (based on info from Newsweek), Universal is up 11% this year while Disney is down 6%. I know the reasons for this difference can be explained by several factors, but the simple fact remains - Disney's closest rival is increasing attendance while Disney's is shrinking.

Maybe some of the cuts which you believe are aimed at keeping Disney afloat are driving visitors away. Disney seems to be playing a game with WDW guests, "How much can we cut before you stop coming back?"

[SnackyStacky]

In the entirety of this post, I speak only for myself. Just a disclaimer!

Actually, I think that the internet contributes to people's perceptions of negativity as much as the press does.

The things that I complain about are things that I notice. Nobody brought them to my attention, but me. The only thing that I've spoken about that I'm not familiar with first-hand is the air conditioning issue. If it ever came across that I was saying they had in fact raised the temperature, I didn't mean it that way. I meant that if that's what was being done, that was a poor decision.

It has been documented that people are now planning their vacations at the last minute, with only a few months notice, and I wonder how much of that is due to people waiting for the "rates" to come out so that they can book at fire sale prices, rather than to the after effects of 9/11.

Perhaps. I booked my September trip during the last week of May. I don't know if that's last minute. My best friend was killing time at work, and just decided to price a quick 4 night stay at Disney World, and there was a rate that was too great to pass up. (And yes, it was a rate. There was no code. It was a hotel/transfer deal from OnlineVacationMall for 4 nights at POR with roundtrip airport transfers for $392). We then decided 4 nights wasn't enough, so we extended our trip by one night. Well, we thought, why not splurge on a deluxe. An expedia booking got us a Boardwalk Inn room for $193. When that Marriott rate came out, we cancelled all of our Disney reservation. Even after cancellation fees, I saved $250! AND, for $25 a night, I'm getting a LOT more amenities then I would have at Disney's moderate resort. And all of that was impromptu. I wasn't waiting for a great rate, or a discount code from the Marriott. But there it was! But for the sake of argument, let's suppose that I WAS waiting for a discount code. What's wrong with that? POR ranges from $133 - $205 depending on season. That is TOO much money to spend. When a family of more than 4 goes on vacation, chances are they're going to need more than 1 room, or a deluxe. If a family wants that Disney magic, I simply do not blame them for waiting. I personally say to heck with the Magic! And is that really what Walt wanted? Or as even you say, what Roy would want? Walt would have wanted families to have the magic. Roy would want more bookings. And, the perks that they offer their on-site guests suck. For lack of a better word. Perhaps a large component of their guests are families. And maybe for them character caravan is great! BUT, Disney World is one of the LARGEST honeymoon destinations. What about all of those people who don't really care about the characters? What is their incentive to spend ridiculously large amounts of money for an on-site room?

Yet posters balk any time that the Disney corporation tries to save money.

I don't fault them for trying to save money. I fault the ways that they try to save. Why didn't they hold off on Animal Kingdom? Why didn't they take half of the money from that project and beef up the Disney-MGM studios? Quite frankly, I'd rather have a LOT more than "Get Happy with ABC", and "Who Wants To Be a Millionaire" than to have what little Animal Kingdom has to offer. But, that's not a valid argument because they DID build the Animal Kingdom. Now it seems that there are still better ways to cut cost while not compromising guest satisfaction.


Some posters on here use a logic that I do not completely understand. They want the parks to be open later - because the parks will be less crowded. The major reason that they seem to want the longer hours is so the crowds will be thinned out - but if the crowd is thinned out, how is economically viable to keep the park open those extra hours?

Case in point!! Again, speaking only for myself, longer hours has NOTHING to do with crowd control for me. I usually can go only in the off-season. Are longer hours not-financially viable? Most definitely! I completely agree!!! And I couldn't have said it better than you did:

they seem to have decided that e-nights are only for peak season, when it seems to me that they would be a really good idea for off-season,

Which is exactly what they were created for. They were designed to give off-season guests a chance to see the Magic Kingdom at night. I didn't forget the rest of your statement:

but then, I don't have the data about sales figures to know that, do I?)

If they were originally intended for one group, why not keep them to that one group if they want to save money?!? They gave it to the peak-season guests because they will make more money from it. Why can't they cut one or two of the peak-season E-Nights, and put them back where they started? Voila! Compromise. The peak season guests still get their E-Nights, and the off-season guests get an E-Night or two also.

I respect the company for choosing to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear by closing the resort at a time of low bookings and making improvements on the property.

I do too. I don't respect them not letting people know that there would come a point the resort would have to close. Instead of being upfront with people, and saying "We may have to close the resort for renovations, but if that happens, you can stay at any of the other moderate resorts, or at a deluxe resort for a reduced rate.", they still took the reservations. As you said though, I agree that Disney has made up for that.

I honestly believe that there are some people on here that search out any negative thing on the internet that they can find and post it here.

I don't. I already had complaints, and found others who had the same complaints. If you'd really like to find EVERY negative thing that has been posted about Disney World, check out www.wdwblues.com. They take the cake for whining, as you called it. I see this less as whining, and more as a discussion. And, unless I'm mistaken, these are the DIS Discussion forums.

[All Aboard]

d-r, I understand your thoughts. It was a well written post. Let me try to defend my whining for a moment, if I can.

If you read the "Our Disney History" thread, you'll see that I've been doing the Disney "thing" for a long time. BUT, there is a very distinct gap in my Disney travels. One that is very crucial to the evolution of my feelings about the Disney Company and my "car" membership. That gap occured from the Fall of 1994 to January of 1999. During that 5 year span I did not travel to WDW even one time. So, the WDW I last experienced in 1994 was at it's peak in my opinion. Splash Mountain and Tower of Terror were additions made in the past couple of years and were perfect examples of the direction Disney needed to be moving.

Career pressures, a move, a couple of job changes, a marriage, a baby on the way... well five years past with no WDW. Hard to believe in retrospect, but it happened. I returned to WDW with a little one in tow. Experiencing WDW through her eyes and introducing her to all the things I loved was an enormous pleasure. Unmatched in many ways. The honeymoon was fresh again. Who cares about operating hours. I was still consuming new things, getting re-aquainted with things I had missed out on for half a decade.

I came on to this board almost 3 years ago. Ran into a few characters that had negative things to say about WDW. What!? You must be joking. The greatest place in the world? I had epic battles with Landbaron, Jewell and some folks that are no longer here. But, the difference between them and me was that they had experienced the changes and slow reductions that happened while I was away. They'd beef about operating hours and it just seemed silly to me. But, now that I've been through 3 years of it, I understand.

Since we are using the last week of August as a reference, let's go back just 2 years. MK closed each weekday during the last week of August 2000 at 9pm. And, EE was in full swing then. The reductions are becoming more and more painful as we move forward.

Much of the argument on behalf of Disney has been pointed at business being in decline. While true, what portion of that is attributable to bad business decisions and a micro-managing CEO?

Even though one can argue that cutbacks are a result of reduced tourism, at some point they will become defeating. Have they reached that point yet? Not sure. But, if MK closes at 4pm during the last week of August 2003, how many more folks will be in car #3?

If folks are returning from vacations and discussing their trips around the office, church, or neighborhood; Disney isn't going to benefit from statements like "the Magic Kingdom closed so early", "gosh, what they added to Animal Kingdom is so awful," "they are building this monstrocity next door to my favorite resort." There is, without a doubt, an impact. How small or large I don't know. When the "WDW experts" are explaining the merits of staying on-site, EE was a pretty good selling point. It all adds up. Piece by piece. I cannot imagine that the best strategy for Disney is to continue chipping away. At what point does it cause the unbendables like JeffH, d-r and thedscoop to say, "you know what, there's a problem here."

[Walt's Frozen Head]

I wonder how much of that is due to people waiting for the "rates" to come out so that they can book at fire sale prices I wonder how much of that is due to Eisner overbuilding hotel rooms for the last decade?

If it was really anything "special" to stay in a Disney resort, there'd be no booking problem. By choosing to play in the bargain area of the resort pool, Disney re-made its own brand image, and finds itself with $99 nights at the Poly to hand out while closing an entire moderate resort.

Shopping for codes is a phenomenon that pre-dates 9/11, and comes from treating resort nights as commodities to be brokered rather than fleeting opportunities to pixie dust some guests.

-WFH

[d-r]

gcurling-

Thanks for pointing out your disney history, that gives me a new way of looking at things. Like you, I had a break to, but a longer one, with college and grad school I didn't go from 1987-1998. Moreover, I went from being a day-tripping Florida resident teen to an out of state, resort staying guest with a little shake in my pocket, plus I was with Melissa now. So imagine how much was new for me!

Don't misunderstand me - I do not LIKE cutbacks on hours, I've felt the cutbacks on hours, and noticed cut backs on staff, too. My point is that there are economic necessities to it, and that this is a difficult time for many companies, especially those based on tourism.

WFH, I like you and value your perspective, but I'm sorry, my perspective about the resorts is so different from yours that I can't even really reply to you. We just have really different views there - you might think that there is nothing "special" about staying at a wdw resort, I can't imagine not doing so. I'd rather not go in the first place. We just have really different views here. I know that the code shopping predates 9/11, and don't get me wrong, I don't blame anyone doing it for a heart beat - you'd be silly not to - I was trying to give an example of how the internet impacts people's perceptions and expectations. I've seen posts on the boards saying about "fools" paying rack rates, and that is the perception. Honestly, I hope that the computer personalized guest services thing gets to the point where we are offered our own "rates" and they do not publish "codes." I honestly believe that the internet posts about codes and rates lead people to be disapointed.

DR

DR

[PKS44]

Originally posted by Walt's Frozen Head
By choosing to play in the bargain area of the resort pool, Disney re-made its own brand image, and finds itself with $99 nights at the Poly to hand out while closing an entire moderate resort.

-WFH \

Quoting my earlier post:"Some say these cost cuts are good business---On Sept 10th at 12pm EDT on TCM a film called Executive
Suite dramatically plays out this question at a fictional furniture manufacturing company.."

All this garbage about the bottom line is just that, garbage. The bottom line takes care of itself if a company is committed to delivering its product, well and efficiently. When the main focus is the bottom line, all the stuff that MAKES the bottom line disappears. People do NOT get rich trying to get rich, it is the happy byproduct of a job well-done. Companies are no different.

The theme parks are NOT losing money. They make money, they just are not making as much as they used to-why? I agree that nobody would be looking to save the pennies on coffee and butter at WDW if they had not blown it on Fox Family and Go.com and overextending themselves...

Disney brought these problems on itself-it diluted the meaning of the magic by overbuilding hotels on site...it has diluted the meaning of opening a new park by building 3 underdeveloped parks...they have diluted the meaning of a new animated film by releasing cheap sequels;new rides by building off the shelf spinners; the Disney store specialness by oversaturating the market, they did the same with Millionaire on 4 nights a week, etc. etc. etc.--and they have diluted the magic of working for the company by making it more about the money than the magic...Employees making minimum wage could feel a lot happier and magical if they knew their mission was to make kids smile, not sell a set number of T-shirts per shift.

[raidermatt]

Again, though, the fact remains that attendance at the parks are down. If there aren't enough people to justify keeping four theme parks open late, then there aren't enough people -

If you're going to accept this position, you (generic you) had better be sure you are right. You must be sure that the cuts in hours are not at least part of the reason you are experiencing low attendance. Because if you are wrong, things will only get worse.

Same with other cuts. Disney can't compare itself to its competition and use them as justification for making the same level of cuts. Disney's audience expects more, and is willing to pay for it. When Disney takes away this differentiation by doing the same thing as the other guys, its going to result in long-term problems.

Its not that I don't think they should at all react to outside economic factors. When they cut hours, shows, etc after 9/11, I thought they were justified. However, they are now not even returning hours to post 9/11 levels. This October's hours have been slashed from 2001 levels by over 10%. There's just no way to view that as a necessity brought on by outside economic forces. Unless you view ABC as an outside econoimc force.

[d-r]

Originally posted by raidermatt

Same with other cuts. Disney can't compare itself to its competition and use them as justification for making the same level of cuts. Disney's audience expects more, and is willing to pay for it. When Disney takes away this differentiation by doing the same thing as the other guys, its going to result in long-term problems.


Matt - I posted the hours for the other parks to point out that wdw had LONGER hours than the other parks, not equal. Disney's audience is getting more, right now and this fall.


Its not that I don't think they should at all react to outside economic factors. When they cut hours, shows, etc after 9/11, I thought they were justified. However, they are now not even returning hours to post 9/11 levels. This October's hours have been slashed from 2001 levels by over 10%. There's just no way to view that as a necessity brought on by outside economic forces. Unless you view ABC as an outside econoimc force.

I don't have the attendance figures, I don't know what the revenue per guest is, I don't know how those compare to other years, I don't know what it costs to operate a theme park. I do honestly believe that the people who run wdw are trying to thread a line between what is economically viable and guest satisfaction. I think I've said that before, but I'm not sure if that was the point I was really trying to make here, which was that I think that the internet contributes to dissatisfaction. I really believe that.

DR

[d-r]

Originally posted by mrtoadslastride


Why??? According to posts in another thread (based on info from Newsweek), Universal is up 11% this year while Disney is down 6%. I know the reasons for this difference can be explained by several factors, but the simple fact remains - Disney's closest rival is increasing attendance while Disney's is shrinking.

Maybe some of the cuts which you believe are aimed at keeping Disney afloat are driving visitors away. Disney seems to be playing a game with WDW guests, "How much can we cut before you stop coming back?"

I think you are making a very important point here, Mr. Toad, and I'm not sure where that point is.

However, as for Universal's attendance numbers, someone has already made a nice case on here concerning the discounts offered to locals, but I would also guess that some of this is regression to the mean - particularly in the case of attendance at IOA which was underperforming last year anyway.

DR

[raidermatt]

Matt - I posted the hours for the other parks to point out that wdw had LONGER hours than the other parks, not equal. Disney's audience is getting more, right now and this fall
Disney's audience is getting less than Disney's audience got before, even when compared to Oct. 2001. That's what Disney's audience cares about. They may have longer hours than Universal, but that only has a small amount of relevance. Most of Disney's guests didn't choose WDW over Universal. They chose it over Hawaii, New York, Yellowstone, Washington DC, Europe, The Caribbean, Las Vegas, etc....

I think that the internet contributes to dissatisfaction.

Only in the sense that there is more information available. If hours aren't cut, or EE doesn't go away, or there aren't fewer parades, or whatever, there is no need for dissatisfaction. The internet allows people to get this information quickly and easily. Yes, sometimes you will see folks getting riled up over information that isn't even true or is only a rumor, but that doesn't cause widespread dissatisfaction. Info on hours, shows, prices, etc is easily available when it comes to Disney. Those cuts are undeniable, and there are some unhappy people.

That doesn't mean everybody who is voiceing displeasure no longer wants to visit, or won't have a great time. It just means they are unhappy about certain things. Its getting louder now because the financial perfomance is slipping. Disney is not even considering the possibility that their gradual cutting over the last 5 years is starting to have a tangible negative affect (at least not publically).

We should be able to all agree that you can only cut so much before you are negatively impacting the bottom line. A lot of people think Disney has now crossed that line. Mgmt's response? Cut further, and blame the economy.

Well, if they're right, we'll know soon enough. But if they are wrong, it will be a VERY costly mistake.

It costs a lot more (10x more, according to Walt) to get a dissatisfied customer back than it does to keep him happy in the first place.

[Captain Crook]

I agree Matt, but if it were not for the internet and these discussion boards and the ability to get scads of information about anything in seconds Disney would only be facing this crisis with about 10% of the people currently aware in the know...Attendance will still fall but the rate of decent would have been lower because it would take personal experienice (which seldom would be obtained quickly) to ferret the information necessary to decide that some other vacation destination might be more prudent than Disney. Most consumers would be unaware.

Now if someone has an inkling that somethings amis they can come to the DIS and see immediately that Chicken Landbaron has decried "the sky is fallng" and then read the posts from all the naysayers, interpreet that since most of these fellow Disney lovers are well spoken and logical that this must be right... "By gosh, Disney IS on their last legs. Martha cancel the Disney reservations, that Eisner's a bast*rd and he ain't gettin' any of our money...We're going to Idaho!"

Yeah, I think the internet has had an effect.;)
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

[DVC-Landbaron]

WOW!! Is there a lot of catching up to do!!! One thing struck me as I was reading and I skipped a lot to post it. If it has been covered I'm sorry. If not it is definitely food for thought.

Finally, I was a kid during the 1970's, but as I seem to remember the oil embargo (everyone drove to WDW at the time) and stagflation really hurt the economy. Did Disney ever close MK at 6 in August then? The economy had to have been worse then, but you didn't see Disney make the type of cuts they are now making. Cutting hours is the Ei$ner way to deal with this problem. Or it can be labeled: Disney®!!

Do you know what the "Walt" way was? That happens to be that glorious time that Disney enticed people with the Electric Light Parade, twice a night, and a 1:00 a.m. closing time!! MAGIC!! PURE MAGIC!!!

And that's the difference!!!

OK, I’m going back to do some more catch up, but I WILL RETURN!!!! ;)

[raidermatt]

Captain, I seriously doubt there are very many people who read a negative post or two and then cancel their trip. And if they read more than that, they will read both sides and be able to make an informed decision.

In fact, they will read how even Chicken Landbaron and most of his cronies still do LOVE going to WDW.

So I agree, that the internet has an effect, and the effect is the quicker dissemination of information. And in the case of info related to WDW, it pretty darn accurate.

The speed with which the info gets out just means that changes, both positive AND negative will have a quicker impact (think how quickly word would spread if EE were reinstated, for instance). However, it doesn't change the ultimate outcome, and therefore, really is irrelevant to discussions about the merit of Disney's decisions.

Its not that I disagree, it just that I don't see how it really matters???:confused:

:D :)

[Captain Crook]

OK.
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

[DVC-Landbaron]

Chicken Landbaron Huh? What did I miss? Or am I being dense again?

[raidermatt]

Captain- Ok,ok.:)

Lord Baron- The Captain used the term, I assume as a Chicken Little reference. You know, "The Disney sky is falling!!!" No harm intended...

[Captain Crook]

Oh, I think 'some' harm was intended! Landbaron's been getting a little too feathery around here so I thought some rufflin' was in order. Of course if any egg layin' were to be needed we'd have to have a hen instead of a chicken and I never heard of a 'Hen Little' so it must be DVCLandbaron.

OK, so now that this is cleared up...;)
:cool: :cool: :bounce: :cool: :cool:

[DVC-Landbaron]

OK!! I have read this entire thread twice now and I am ready!!! And I found that “Chicken” reference my Captain! And just like Lucy, you got some splainin’ to do!! Rustle feathers indeed!!!! ;)

Mr. R (or should it be Mr. D-R? Hmmm?)

As much as word of mouth does. But don’t you think that the effect could be equally positive as it IS negative. I mean I visited a Tolkien site when I first found out the movie was being made two years ago. I never posted on it and in fact never even registered. I just lurked a bit to find out what I could about the movie. And while there were certainly some die-hard fans that SCREAMED about every little word of dialogue, by and large the balance was that a pretty good film was in the offing!! You read the posts and the linked articles and anyone with any type of intelligence came away with a pretty evenhanded portrait of an eagerly awaited film. I visited after the film came out and found the same sort of reasonablness. Some absolute FLAMES and some that appeared to be on New Line’s payroll. But by just lurking I was able to tell that the film was pretty well received and liked by the vast majority.

Somehow I think that that if that site, of admitted Tolkien nuts, existed when that cartoon version came out in the late ‘70’s early eighties, I think I would have gone away with an entirely different feeling. One of negativity. One of the film being a failure.

Is this the fault of the Internet? Or is it the fault of the product?

I think that if Disney were producing top-notch ‘stuff’ all the LandBarons, Frozen people, Mr. Matts and AVs in the world could not out shout the masses. When I got here I was pretty much a lone voice in the wilderness. I was definitely being out-shouted by the folks here. But about a year and a half ago I noticed a great change. Many more posts started to agree with me than disagree. Slowly. Much more slowly than I had hoped, but slowly those masses started to acknowledge that “something was rotten in the state of Denmark!!” I point to Peter Pirate, Gcurling, Mr. Matt (now riding shotgun!) and many, many others. Even the head of the resistance, our own Scoop, now admits that it is time for a change in head mouse!! Now that’s something!!!!

Now I agree that the internet was the mode of communication. And it didn’t carry a pretty message (at least from me). But if all were rosy, “we” would be out shouted, out thought and out-posted!! And a lurker here, with no vested interest, would take away a picture of magic and pixie dust. As it is I believe that most carry away a picture of greed and “knuckleheadedness”!! But I could be wrong!! :crazy:

I honestly believe that they keep the park hours open based upon the attendance levels, and I have witnessed hours being extended based upon need.So you are telling me that when the MK closes EVERY night at 10:00 during July it is solely bases on attendance and has nothing whatsoever to do with cost cutting and profit boosting? And that the crowds were LESS this July than say in 1972 or 1975 or 1981 or 1985 or 1991 or 1995 or 1998 or… Whoops!! Here’s when the crowds evidently started to go away because that’s when they started cutting hours in July!!!! Is that what you’re saying?
They want the parks to be open later - because the parks will be less crowded. The major reason that they seem to want the longer hours is so the crowds will be thinned out - but if the crowd is thinned out, how is economically viable to keep the park open those extra hours?NO!!! That is wrong!! TOTALLY WRONG!!! It is merely a side benefit for those who preserver to the very end (of which I am one). Now please understand the concept. It is the same concept that is employed with EE. And even though I never used it personally I was greatly impacted by its elimination!! Same as you, whether you know it or not, are impacted by the reduction of hours (if you visit in the summer) no matter if you stayed late or not!!!

Why? Because it gives EVERYONE options!!!! Want to watch a parade!! No problem!! You’ve got two to choose from!! Not one where EVERYONE is packed like sardines, 40 deep, the poor little kids not having a chance of seeing even the top of the floats. Want to skip the parade and go on a couple rides!! FINE!! Have a ball. You want to get away for a few hours!! Go for it. People like DisDuck are now in the park, but they won’t be there tonight!! Want to enjoy the afternoon sunshine in the MK? Great!! Those idiots like LandBaron aren’t there. They are sitting beside the Old Key West swimming pool and not forced to see EVERYTHING with EVERYONE in the blazing sun!!! Want to stick around to the very end at midnight on am Monday (the best day to do that BTW)? Fine!! You’ll love it because half the crowd got up early to do EE and there’s no way they are going to stick around!!

Do you get it yet? It offers choices. Options. And it thins the crowd throughout the entire day. Your entire stay. And if the rains come, as they always do in July and August, that’s just fine!! Why? Cause MK’s open until midnight again tomorrow!! Akuna Matata! What a wonderful phase!! Akuna Matata! Unfortunately a passing phase, cause the current management won’t let me use it!! Instead they FORCE me and you (collectively) to do it all together! And while I love my fellow Disney fans I don’t want to be herded like cattle with them, at the whim of management, all to save a couple bucks!! How about not making stupid business moves that the parks have to finance and letting us make some choices again!!!

{quote]Many of the same people who seem to cheer any sign of bad economic news for the Disney company - because it might oust Eisner - seem to be unable to understand that cut backs are necessary.[/quote] Cutback!!!?? Necessary!!?? Just what are they cutting Mr. R? You seem to think that they are cutting expenditures. Saving a few bucks, eh? You’re as mixed up as Ei$ner!! He thinks he’s selling you a ticket, some plush toys, a Pecos Bill burger and a soda!! And the hours, cast members, and paint is merely considered overhead, which can be added in good times and reduced in bad times. He, and you are terrible wrong!!

I see it in a totally different light. They are cutting their product! They are cutting what they used to be so good at selling. And we bought and bought and even bought some more. We bought with our dollars and more importantly we bought with our return business and most important we bought with our FAVORABLE (alomist gushing) word of mouth!! Yes sir!! They sold us an experience. They sold us magic. D-R!! They sold us a SHOW!!! And we ALL bought it. Lock stock and barrel!! And the SHOW is what they are cutting!! Not mere expenditures!!
I think they have made some really good moves to weather the storm.Really!!?? Gee! I don’t see any!!
I also read about Walt, and I can understand some of the comments that are basically "what would Walt do?" but right now is a time that you also have to ask "what would Roy do?"Again we disagree. In the middle of the Great Depression did Walt “listen “ to Roy, or did he make Snow White anyway (mortgaging himself, his company and even Roy to the hilt!)? During the gas crisis and that poor economic time of the late seventies early eighties, did they “listen” to the Roy types? Or did they add the Electric Light Parade and extend hours to 1:00 a.m. AND open EPCOT, which cost over a billion at the time!!??

I find myself often getting turned off by this board lately. Is it because there is a tremendous amount of complaining regarding the current administration’s philosophical choices lately? Cause if it is, then yes!! I have to agree with you!! The truth does hurt sometimes. And I can understand that as you see the reality of the situation you may want to blame the conversation vehicle instead of the ones who are truly at fault. It’s a very old problem that stretches way back to the ancient Greeks. You know, don’t kill the messenger!!

There is less about rumors and news than there is about moaning and whining (and yeah, I remember how bad I got flamed a year or two ago for calling something whining).Yeah! I know. Not many rumors at all!! I wish there were, but it’s kind of hard to dream those impossible dreams when your job may be in the dumper the next day!!

But I do take issue with your phrasing. And maybe it was a mistake. Moaning? Yes!! Good lord, there’s a bunch of well deserved moaning!! But whining!?!? I really don’t see it. And I’m not being purposely obtuse. I really don’t!!! Please let me know, even in a PM, when you see it! Cause, quite frankly, I don’t!

Also let me know if this post made you feel flamed, because that was NOT my intent!!

[Another Voice]

Why is there an assumption that the Internet is only capable of spreading negative opinions? Seems to me that the 'net is only a communications media where people can say both good and bad things. Certainly Disney and the other studios believe this otherwise they would not spend so much time, effort and money creating phantom "fan" websites and hiring posters to get influence discussion boards (oops - at least that's what the "rumors" say away).

And for all the bad "Internet talk" that WDW has gotten recently - it seems that DisneySeas has received far more positive (if not downright glowing) "buzz".

Perhaps, like it always has been, it's the show that matters most. People without the skill or the will to produce a good show will always blame the reviews, the marketing, the buzz. They'll blame everyone except the real reason why the movie, show, park failed -

Themseleves.

[JeffH]

It offers choices. Options
Let's see, the options THEN were:
Magic Kingdom in the morning Poly or Contemporary in the afternoon Magic Kingdom in the evening.
or
Magic Kingdom in the morning, Magic Kingdom in the afternoon, then Poly or Contemporary in the evening.
or
Poly or Contemporary in the morning, Magic Kingdom in the afternoon, then the Magic Kingdom in the evening
That's about it aside from perhaps a trip to the marketplace or the Hoop-De-Doo-Revue.
And during the off season, when the Magic Kingdom closed before dark, what were the options, then?
Then Epcot opened adding 1 more (nice) option, and it soon took over 'night' duty, staying open until 10pm every night with Illuminations.

The options NOW are:
Animal Kingdom, Epcot, MGM, Magic Kingdom, almost 20 resorts to visit, and a huge entertainment complex called Downtown Disney (East, West and Pleasure Island) and perhaps a trip to the Wide World of Sports, or a round of golf or mini-golf at one of the many courses.

I think one of the main reasons that Disney had long hours, way back when, was simply because there were no other options. Now the options are so numerous that you can't possibly entertain them all in a single trip. The fact that the 'new' options are no longer convenient to some does not make this bad, otherwise why not expect the Magic Kingdom to be open 24 hours so you can go between midnight and 8am when the crowds would be REAL light. The fact that there are SO many other options, is good, VERY good. In fact, WDW is 'open' later than ever, now with Downtown Disney open real late. Your options now go from a multitude of early morning character breakfasts throughout the resort, to late late night of entertainment at Downtown Disney...no more Magic Kingdom, Magic Kingdom, Magic Kingdom.
We've spent about 500 days at WDW to date, and last Tuesday was the first time we enjoyed Alice's Tea Party at the Grand Floridian, and we still have not done LaNuba. I would give up late nights at the Magic Kingdom for the 'option' of enjoying the likes of all those new options that I mentioned above, one of those which is "sitting beside the Old Key West swimming pool", which opened in 1991.

They can't leave everything open 16 hours a day just so some guests can have the 'option' to walk around a deserted park, if you want this, plan a trip during the off season. I still fail to understand how eliminating MKpm, while adding all that now exists is a negative.
If you really just gots to have the park to yourself, then buy it for the evening.
And as far as fighting for a spot for the night parade. This is only a problem for those who choose to play right up until the parade starts, we stake out our spot 2 hours before the parade and take turns exploring Main Street until the parade starts. Try it, it works.

[Captain Crook]

Who said the internet only offers negative opinions? It's just that this is what we're currently taking about. Certainly the internet is responsible for wonderful buzz as well...Just look at how much the general public knows about the new hotels & casinos in Vegas...Their appeal is far more nationwide than times before the net...Or look at Shrek, a ton of positive remarks must have been made to make this movie such a winner.;)

But we're talking about Disney...A company that has lived under glass from the inception and even more so since the growth stages of the 90's when people were worried that the mouse might devour the world.

I don't see how any of you can argue that the negative items reported here on sites like this excacerbate and expediate the resulting fallout. I am not saying that it's unwarranted or unfair. I am not even saying that it shouldn't happen. I'm only saying that it's a brave new world for very public companies such as Disney and even those not so public companies thanks to the intense scrutiny of millions of wannabes. It is bound to have an effect, IMO.
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[DaveO]

LB- Please do not try and whine about the Cubs. I have to deal with the Red Sox. ;)

Back in the 'Good Ole Days' during off season there were NEVER fireworks or night time parades in MK. In the 90's with attendance up Disney started to do these night time activities during the week and weekends. Now with attendace down they have reduced the night time entertainment. See the 'Good ole days' are never as good as it seems. Time makes things seem better than they were.

One mistake I hate disney making is COMMUNICATION. They should not be posting 6pm closing times for August. I say POSTING because I can almost gaurantee these will be extended. Everyone is getting upset (rightfully so) with no need. When I went in April they had posted reduced hours but when I got there everything was opened early and hours extended by 2 or 3 hours than what was posted. They should STOP doing this it is bad PR and makes folks change there vacation plans for no reason.

I picked 12 - 36 months because we just now are seeing the mistakes DCA and cutting hours come to life. I do not have an issue with building C ticket rides - spinners for the kids and DinoRama. But now it is time for E tickets!! And my expectations are ToT and Splash Mountain and yes Test Track ( I know I will hear about this one!) This will take time.

Also I do not see the issue with building all the hotels. Before CBR was built I could never have stayed on site. This opens up the 'magic' to all. Like I said some people LOVE the All Stars. This is how they financed some of the expansions. And DVC is a win win situation for guests and Disney.

I am also going to come out of the closet ........


It is time for Eisner to go. When Wall Street is questioning the leadership then nothing good can come of it - even if you might be the right person to turn it around.

Dave O.

[DVC-Landbaron]

It is bound to have an effect, IMO. I’m not even sure we should be talking!! CHICKEN indeed!!! HUMPH!! ;) Where’s the Pirate anyway?!? I think I like him better!! :crazy:

Anyway, I agree it has an effect. I think that effect is given way too much credit, especially by we who use it, but I will grant you it does have an effect!!

But in my way of thinking, that effect could have been positive. And the reason it is not positive is because they don’t deserve it!! Plain and simple.

[Captain Crook]

We can agree to that. This is the way it is and they'll be getting their just deserts one way or another. It isn't unfair, it isn't insideous but it is something no one heretofore has had to concern themselves with much.

And don't worry about the chicken comment... I had to pull you into this thread somehow!;)

I thought you once said you liked me better???:cool:
:smooth: :smooth: :bounce: :smooth: :smooth:

[DVC-Landbaron]

I thought you once said you liked me better???Nah! Actually I don't like either of you!! But you're the best Car #1 has to offer!!! How's that for slim pickin's!?!? ;)

[Walt's Frozen Head]

you might think that there is nothing "special" about staying at a wdw resort My point was that the numbers we saw in another thread suggested that the high end Orlando hotels were getting back on track, while the low end was suffering, so it was reasonable that Disney, who sells to the low end, would see less rebound than Universal. Further, that it was Eisner's decision to "strip down" the Magic to compete in that low-end market, in the first place.

I was trying to make the point that the market now saw Disney as less special, saw it now as a discount item to be bought at the last minute because you knew discounts would become available; and that was a predictable conclusion to a choice made years ago (and consistently since) concerning hotels.my perspective about the resorts is so different from yours that I can't even really reply to you I made no value judgement of the experience itself.

I'm positing whether Disney had a perfect number of hotels and were blindsided by cruel cruel fate or Disney built too much and grabbed at a particularly fickle section of the market that was never their core audience until Eisner's time, and was now reaping what they've sown in closed resorts and bargain prices.

That's a question I'd be interested in hearing different answers to, and I won't tell anyone if you stay off-site or not.

-WFH

[DVC-Landbaron]

LB- Please do not try and whine about the Cubs. I have to deal with the Red Sox.YIKES!!! I was wrong!! There is whining going on here at the DIS!! But it ain’t about Disney!! It’s about our ROTTEN teams!! And I feel your pain!! And I’m sure you can feel mine!!!!

Back in the 'Good Ole Days' during off season there were NEVER fireworks or night time parades in MK.Yep!! That’s they way I remember it too. That’s one of the reasons I always went to WDW during the summer even when I wasn’t forced into it because of school schedules. It has always been a conscience decision. I like the twinkle!!
In the 90's with attendance up Disney started to do these night time activities during the week and weekends.Yep!! Again, just as I remember.
Now with attendance down they have reduced the night time entertainment.Well I don’t agree with the premise, but I see your point.

See the 'Good ole days' are never as good as it seems. Time makes things seem better than they were.I know you had a point here and perhaps it was a little unfair of me. But I have been accused many times, and not only by you, of remembering the past with rose-colored-glasses. That’s why I took EVERY sentence in your paragraph and quoted it. Just to show you that I’m on the same page as you. That I remember the same things as you. And that the past doesn’t seem rosier than it really was, only rosier than today!!

Now Dave, I don’t want to split hairs but it’s real important to consider just what I say in my posts and what you might have inferred, that wasn’t implicitly stated.

I never, or at least not without much qualification, ever talk about hours other than Summer Hours!! Why? Cause I don’t know squat about them, that’s why!!! But I do know summer hours. I know them well!! I AM AN EXPERT!! I promise you! And my memory on the subject is absolutely impeccable!!
I say POSTING because I can almost gaurantee these will be extendedYeah! I’m inclined to agree with you. But that just points to more “knuckleheadedness”. If they cared one whit about the “Disney Experience” they would know how important planning is to optimize that experience!! But they don’t care!! Or worse yet, they don’t know!! Remember!! Our friend, the guy Ei$ner picked to head the parks, our own Paul Pre$$ler NEVER set foot inside a Disney park until he got the job there. Now that’s someone who I trust with the SHOW!!!
I do not have an issue with building C ticket rides - spinners for the kids and DinoRama.Neither do I!! I think we need “A” thru “E” and in EPCOT a couple of “F”s (long, pavilion style)!! But I still have a problem with Dinorama. Not it’s size or scope. It’s simply that it is NOT Disney. Now, you can’t have seen it and claim that Disney has had anything to do with it. Please Dave!! I enjoy the talk, but in order to enjoy the talk I have to think there is some logic and intelligence behind it!! And if you say you’ve seen Dino-rama and think, for one single solitary second, that it is within Disney standards… well… :confused:

Luckily, I think I know you better than that. :bounce: It is the concept you don’t mind. Me too. That of “B”, “C” or even a small “D” ticket ride or attraction. And I agree!! And can we also agree that they failed miserably in the implementation of this concept? WHEW!!! GOOD! Then we can go on!!
yes Test Track ( I know I will hear about this one!)OK!! Just so you recognize this yourself!! We’re all allowed our ‘guilty’ pleasures!! Mine is that stupid, doesn’t fit in anywhere in EPOCT cooling station!! I CAN’T WALK BY IT WITHOUT STOPPING IN!!! It’s like “Disney heroin” for me!! When I’m in EPCOT – I NEED A FIX!!!
Also I do not see the issue with building all the hotels.Can we save this for another day? I heard grumbling and the mention of tar and feathers if the LandBaron brings up this Caste System again!!! And that was from the backseat of Car #3!!!!
I am also going to come out of the closetTOO MUCH INFORMATION!!!! :eek:

It is time for Eisner to go. When Wall Street is questioning the leadership then nothing good can come of it - even if you might be the right person to turn it around.WHAT!!!! After all this and we’re on the same page!!!

I feel like Allen Sherman!! “Mother, Father, kindly disregard this letter!”

;)

[JeffH]

they failed miserably in the implementation of this concept

Actually the implementation was excellent, perfect, right on theme (if you know the theme of Dinoland). The problem was with the theme itself, it was totally non-Disney-like: tacky, cheap, rip-off, distracting (annoying).

Strangely, though, I love the area, while hating all the attractions (What?!?).
The layout is 'fun', the colors are festive. the area is busy (alive), and the 'carnys' do not spoil it by bugging you.
But
I think the games are too expensive considering it is 'pretending' to be an attraction and the prizes are generic (cr*p). A buck per adult and .25 per child would be better than $2/head.
I hated Primal Whirl...it's everything I hate about roller coasters, jerky, it is slow and there are no good drops (I love real deep drops), I though I hurt my back bad during one of the spinning jerks (no back support). And that dinging is annoying.
The spinning dinos was stupid and worthless, the up and down controls were in the back and who wants to spin in a dinosaur anyway (compared to Aladdin's carpet and Dumbo, which we both love)

[Pinnie]

Standing Ovation for D-R!!!

Excellent post!!!!! You make a lot of valid points.

Sorry I am coming into this discussion late, but I have been at Drum Corp finals in Madison, WI (WTG, CAVS!!) and just got back to lurking here.

On the subject of August hours, one thing I would like to point out is that WAY back in the 70s, kids didn't go back to school until AFTER Labor Day. Trust me on this, I was teaching back then, too! Kids in many FL districts started back to school last week. Following that trend, districts up here in MI are starting back beginning next week. If Disney is "family focused", as everyone here seems to point out, it stands to reason they are aware of the lack of families that will be there in August and are adjusting the hours accordingly.

I am willing to bet that next year, Aug. 4 - 10 crowds will be high. Drum Corp finals are returning to Orlando. That packs in crowds, since the Corps perform at EPCOT during the week. I know *I* will be there with my family and so will a LOT of others!!!

Pin
remember the magic
DVC/BCV 2002

[DVC-Landbaron]

I am willing to bet that next year, Aug. 4 - 10 crowds will be high. Drum Corp finals are returning to Orlando. That packs in crowds, since the Corps perform at EPCOT during the week. I know *I* will be there with my family and so will a LOT of others!!!So what are you willing to "bet"? What are you willing to put up that if Ei$ner is still in charge we will see the same hours (or perhaps less) NO MATTER HOW IT PACKS IN THE CROWDS!!!???

See, attendance doesn't matter. The experience doesn't matter. The show doesn't matter. That's all spin!! All that matters is the next quarterly.

And his golden parachute of course!!!

[Pinnie]

You know, LB, after I posted this and read your response, I realized you are absolutely RIGHT! The hours WON'T change next Aug and Disney will know this. All those fans will be packed into the parks during the day and won't be NEAR them at night because they are all going to be at the Citrus Bowl for Finals Week.

Great time for you to go. ;)

pin
remember the magic
DVC/BCV 2002

[Bob O]

This has been a very interesting discussion but in the end it seems some people will justify anything disney does, no matter what it is or how it impacts people who visit the resort less frequently than others.
Some people go to wdw primarily for the theme park experience and the loss of hours has a major impact and dont want to be nickled and dimed to death by buffet meals or mini golfing. They would like to get to the parks early(sorry cant do so no EE) and then maybe rest and then visit the park till late at night(sorry parks close early but you can gladly spend additional money at DTD if you like).
And with the actions of the current regime over the past 5 yrs why is there any reason to believe things will all of a sudden get better??? Besdes MS(which if rumors are true its already been reduced in size and scope)there isnt much on the horizon at all in regards to any new attractions. Of course we can always hope for a new show at MGM telling us how great ABC's lineup is this fall. And who really believes that any of Dave O's list will be acted upon??? Maybe if eisner is replaced???

[d-r]

Hi again,
Just a quick first post to explain something, when I wrote that I think that the internet sets people up for disapointment I wasn't thinking about the griping, I was thinking about the posts about code rates, pixie dusts, upgrades, etc, that only suckers pay rack rates. I was thinking about the person who pays $250 a night for a room to find out that other people are paying $99, or the honey moon couple who didn't get the complimentary champaigne or whatever, or the family who didn't get to be the parade marshalls. Mostly though, I was thinking about the rates.

DR

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by d-r
Hi again,
Just a quick first post to explain something, when I wrote that I think that the internet sets people up for disapointment I wasn't thinking about the griping, I was thinking about the posts about code rates, pixie dusts, upgrades, etc, that only suckers pay rack rates. I was thinking about the person who pays $250 a night for a room to find out that other people are paying $99, or the honey moon couple who didn't get the complimentary champaigne or whatever, or the family who didn't get to be the parade marshalls. Mostly though, I was thinking about the rates.

DR

Does the Internet need to be involeved for people to see or notice this?

Really though only suckers do pay rack rate... right?

[d-r]

All right, this will be a dissertation.

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
OK!! I have read this entire thread twice now and I am ready!!! And I found that “Chicken” reference my Captain! And just like Lucy, you got some splainin’ to do!! Rustle feathers indeed!!!! ;)

Mr. R (or should it be Mr. D-R? Hmmm?)

Well, if you really want to know, it is Dr., but D.R. has been my nick name for long before that, and it isn't typically used with Mr. or Dr.

I cut the lord of the rings stuff.


I think that if Disney were producing top-notch ‘stuff’ all the LandBarons, Frozen people, Mr. Matts and AVs in the world could not out shout the masses.


Honestly, I don't think you are. What intrigues me is that you continue to go for three weeks at a time (so it must not be that bad). And I've tried to be clear that there are things I am not happy about and that I wish were different. However, I recognize that there is a reality about it. I heard on npr this morning that American Airlines made some serious cut backs. NBC news last night had a report from Universal Studios, didn't mention Disney but talked about the slow down in tourism, espcially in international visiters, which is down 11% nation-wide. They mentioned that France and Spain have more international visitors now than the US, and that the national parks have had room vacancies this summer, which is apparently unheard of. Again, we know from the stock report that attendance is down. How is it that at a time when revenue and attendance is down that it is feasible to operate at previous levels?


So you are telling me that when the MK closes EVERY night at 10:00 during July it is solely bases on attendance and has nothing whatsoever to do with cost cutting and profit boosting?


Aboslutely not. Attendance and cost cutting / profit boosting go hand in hand. If attendance is down, you have to cut costs, don't you?


And that the crowds were LESS this July than say in 1972 or 1975 or 1981 or 1985 or 1991 or 1995 or 1998 or… Whoops!! Here’s when the crowds evidently started to go away because that’s when they started cutting hours in July!!!! Is that what you’re saying?


Actually, I'm sure the crowds are higher than in the 70s for the entire resort, but as has been pointed out, there are four theme parks, downtown disney/ pleasure island, etc. etc. now. I thought that I read from the quarterly report that attendance is down from last year, and I think I remember that last year was down from the year before. I keep seeing all kinds of information that says that tourism is down. I've said before that I don't know all the parameters here, but yeah, it sure seems like they are down. And again, what makes you think that they didn't figure out in 1998 that the point between operating expenses and guest satisfaction, in terms of park hours, had been passed? (FWIW, I think the least crowded I have ever seen wdw was in Oct. of 1998). Maybe they figured out that it wasn't worth keeping the MK open based upon the data from that year.


NO!!! That is wrong!! TOTALLY WRONG!!! It is merely a side benefit for those who preserver to the very end (of which I am one). Now please understand the concept. It is the same concept that is employed with EE. And even though I never used it personally I was greatly impacted by its elimination!! Same as you, whether you know it or not, are impacted by the reduction of hours (if you visit in the summer) no matter if you stayed late or not!!!


I understand your point about options, but I maintain that I was absolutely right. Ultimately, you would like for the MK hours to be longer so that you can enjoy the parks with a lower crowd. Isn't that right? I mean isn't that the result of these "options" (and I maintain that people still have a lot of options once the MK closes at 10 on a week day).


Cutback!!!?? Necessary!!?? Just what are they cutting Mr. R? You seem to think that they are cutting expenditures. Saving a few bucks, eh? You’re as mixed up as Ei$ner!! He thinks he’s selling you a ticket, some plush toys, a Pecos Bill burger and a soda!! And the hours, cast members, and paint is merely considered overhead, which can be added in good times and reduced in bad times. He, and you are terrible wrong!!


Well, I'm not cutting anything, of course. I am not a business person, but I hear Father Guido Sarducci in my head "Supply. Demand. You buy something and sell it for more." If you don't make as much money, because there are less people there, you can't operate as many hours.



I see it in a totally different light. They are cutting their product! They are cutting what they used to be so good at selling. And we bought and bought and even bought some more. We bought with our dollars and more importantly we bought with our return business and most important we bought with our FAVORABLE (alomist gushing) word of mouth!! Yes sir!! They sold us an experience. They sold us magic. D-R!! They sold us a SHOW!!! And we ALL bought it. Lock stock and barrel!! And the SHOW is what they are cutting!! Not mere expenditures!!


And that show costs money, land barron. Does it not?

Really!!?? Gee! I don’t see any!!
Again we disagree. In the middle of the Great Depression did Walt “listen “ to Roy, or did he make Snow White anyway (mortgaging himself, his company and even Roy to the hilt!)? During the gas crisis and that poor economic time of the late seventies early eighties, did they “listen” to the Roy types? Or did they add the Electric Light Parade and extend hours to 1:00 a.m. AND open EPCOT, which cost over a billion at the time!!??


How many times did Walt miss on these bets? How many times did Walt loose everything and go bankrupt?


Is it because there is a tremendous amount of complaining regarding the current administration’s philosophical choices lately? Cause if it is, then yes!! I have to agree with you!! The truth does hurt sometimes. And I can understand that as you see the reality of the situation you may want to blame the conversation vehicle instead of the ones who are truly at fault. It’s a very old problem that stretches way back to the ancient Greeks. You know, don’t kill the messenger!!



I don't blame the complaining on this rumors board for the economy and downtown in tourism.


Yeah! I know. Not many rumors at all!! I wish there were, but it’s kind of hard to dream those impossible dreams when your job may be in the dumper the next day!!

Yes, exactly. Thank about that sentance.

How many jobs were cut after 9/11 at wdw? Aren't most of those folks back at work now?


But I do take issue with your phrasing. And maybe it was a mistake. Moaning? Yes!! Good lord, there’s a bunch of well deserved moaning!! But whining!?!? I really don’t see it. And I’m not being purposely obtuse. I really don’t!!! Please let me know, even in a PM, when you see it! Cause, quite frankly, I don’t!

Also let me know if this post made you feel flamed, because that was NOT my intent!!

I don't feel flamed at all. I just don't see things as bleakly as you do. I think this is a bad time, I wish that it wasn't, I think things will get better. I think that there is a lot to enjoy right now at wdw and look forward to going back in Sept. I guess I'm an optimist over this, or naive if you would rather. I don't think that griping over every possible thing, or looking for negatives in every possible thing (RE: CBR) is going to do much good, and I'm happier not to join in it.

You know, truthfully, I understand your view on this and I don't think I want to bother to continue debating it, because I'm not sure what point there is to continuing.

DR

[BRERALEX]

in the whole grand scheme of life a poor guy who pays rack rate is not a sucker. a sucker is a person who calls him one.

some people have so much money they care not for rates cause whats the difference anyways

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by BRERALEX
in the whole grand scheme of life a poor guy who pays rack rate is not a sucker. a sucker is a person who calls him one.

some people have so much money they care not for rates cause whats the difference anyways

Wasn't aware that we were talking about people of wealth that had no care as to the price of items...

But if I'm a sucker for not paying rack rate and not agreeing to the first price that someone tells me especially in cases where its customary to bargain/haggle for the price of a service or item...

Then I'll take that label I guess... :rolleyes:

[d-r]

Originally posted by Walt's Frozen Head
My point was that the numbers we saw in another thread suggested that the high end Orlando hotels were getting back on track, while the low end was suffering, so it was reasonable that Disney, who sells to the low end, would see less rebound than Universal. Further, that it was Eisner's decision to "strip down" the Magic to compete in that low-end market, in the first place.

I was trying to make the point that the market now saw Disney as less special, saw it now as a discount item to be bought at the last minute because you knew discounts would become available; and that was a predictable conclusion to a choice made years ago (and consistently since) concerning hotels. I made no value judgement of the experience itself.

I'm positing whether Disney had a perfect number of hotels and were blindsided by cruel cruel fate or Disney built too much and grabbed at a particularly fickle section of the market that was never their core audience until Eisner's time, and was now reaping what they've sown in closed resorts and bargain prices.

That's a question I'd be interested in hearing different answers to, and I won't tell anyone if you stay off-site or not.

-WFH

Now, this is an interesting question, and I'm not sure what I think about it. I'll have to think about it for a while. I will say this. I personally don't really like the value resorts, but I'm glad that they are there. I think that they have a real purpose. I'm leaning towards cruel fate - the economy is bad in general, but tourism is particularly bad. I'm not sure if someone should have seen that coming or not, but I think that if I was planning for that, then the idea of making the value resorts would probably seem like a very good idea. Is it over-saturated? I guess it probably is.

The last minute wait-for-a-sale has been the demise of the disney store, too, imho. I think that is why there is less of a selection there now, because things like clothes are more seasonal. I think that waiting for a sale is a sign of the economy.

DR

[BRERALEX]

i dont pay rack rate im not a sucker. i said if someone calls soemone else a sucker for paying rack rate their a sucker. becuase who are they to call someone a sucker? real simple

[raidermatt]

Again, we know from the stock report that attendance is down. How is it that at a time when revenue and attendance is down that it is feasible to operate at previous levels?
Then please, oh please, explain why hours have steadily dropped over the last 5 years when attendance has only dropped over the last 1 1/2.

Attendance and cost cutting / profit boosting go hand in hand. If attendance is down, you have to cut costs, don't you?
This is why I accepted the cuts in hours made last year and early this year.

However, it fails to explain why hours are being cut further this October than last (by another 11%). Your above comment only explains this if this October's attendance is going to be lower than last October's. Given the screaching halt that tourism came to after 9/11, I truly find this difficult to believe.

I maintain that people still have a lot of options once the MK closes at 10 on a week day
Are you honestly saying that closing MK earlier, so a guest can take a bus over to DD and shop is what most guests WANT? The guest who want to go to DD have that option. The guests who want to stay in MK have had their option taken away.

If you want to argue it from a business pov, at least there is some basis for it (at least as long as the "WDW maybe sinking but so are some other places" theory holds...). But to argue that from a guest satisfaction pov, DD is an equal option for most guests to later park hours really is hard to figure out.

[d-r]

Europa-
I'm not expressing myself very clearly here, and I apologize for that. Bare with me. What I am trying to say is that people get disapointed when they read on the internet about somebody else getting something cheaper (or more special) than they did, or that they get built up to expect something that they may not get and are disapointed.

Don't get hung up on the sucker thing.

DR

[d-r]

Originally posted by raidermatt

Then please, oh please, explain why hours have steadily dropped over the last 5 years when attendance has only dropped over the last 1 1/2.


This is why I accepted the cuts in hours made last year and early this year.

However, it fails to explain why hours are being cut further this October than last (by another 11%). Your above comment only explains this if this October's attendance is going to be lower than last October's. Given the screaching halt that tourism came to after 9/11, I truly find this difficult to believe.


Matt, I'm saying that they are trying to find the regression equation between guest satisfaction and operating expenses in predicting park hours. I don't know what the data are, and I've said before that they may have gone to far in the direction of operating expenses (although I maintain that there is a cap here based upon revenue and attendance). As I've said before, how does anyone know that the year 1998 went to far the other direction? Or what the learned from last October's data?

I really am confident that when the crowd levels are high enough that they extend the hours beyond the posted ones, which are based upon expectations from data like resort bookings, etc.



Are you honestly saying that closing MK earlier, so a guest can take a bus over to DD and shop is what most guests WANT? The guest who want to go to DD have that option. The guests who want to stay in MK have had their option taken away.


No, actually I'm saying that 10 on a weekend night during a summer when crowds are lower than in the past is probably enough for most families not to be disapointed - they will be happy to go back to their resort and enjoy their vacation, let the kids swim and wind down and put them to bed so that they can get up and do something else tomorrow. And I use the fact that the parks are less crowded later at night (and hence the reason that other guests would like for them to remain open - less crowded) as the evidence to indicate that I am right. The point here is not the guests would rather do something else, the point is that there is enough something else's that MOST guests won't mind.

I'm sorry if you don't think that "not minding" is enough reason to justify it, but there comes a point where the attendance in the park is not enough to generate revenue to pay the expenses of keeping the park open. So, I think they have walked that line between guest satisfaction and operating expenses for the majority of guests.

Of course we all want to visit the MK when the crowds are low, and in fact, I would love it for them to keep it open later. Heck I wish they would open it just for me, but then it would probably cost me a whole lot.



If you want to argue it from a business pov, at least there is some basis for it (at least as long as the "WDW maybe sinking but so are some other places" theory holds...). But to argue that from a guest satisfaction pov, DD is an equal option for most guests to later park hours really is hard to figure out.

Actually, I don't think I mentioned downtown disney, but you know what, there are other options. And yeah, going to downtown disney is one of them - along with the resort pool, pleasure island, mini golf, a decent meal, cirque, disney quest, the boardwalk, etc. Last May we we were at wlv and the MK closed at 6 on week nights. We enjoyed the hot tub, good drinks and food, watching the water pagent, relaxing and enjoying our evenings a couple of nights, and went to epcot and mgm and dtd on others.

And now that you bring it up, I just realized something. We get there on a Friday in Sept. and the MK closes at 6, so we realized that after it closes would be a really good time to go to market place to get some new toys from the new toy store. So maybe you do have a point about downtown disney :)

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by d-r
Europa-
I'm not expressing myself very clearly here, and I apologize for that. Bare with me. What I am trying to say is that people get disapointed when they read on the internet about somebody else getting something cheaper (or more special) than they did, or that they get built up to expect something that they may not get and are disapointed.

Don't get hung up on the sucker thing.

DR

I agree to a point...the Internet has made more people aware of something's that they never knew before. Remember we live in the Information age...this age is ruled by Information. The more that you have the better equipped you are to deal with the World

Jealousy, one upping, or keeping up with the Jones's is a human trait. We are born with it, it seems. You can drive down the road and see someone driving a car that you want or living in a nicer house then you have. You can go to a restaurant and eat chicken where the guy next to you has a big juicy steak and want that too. Go to the grocery store and see the person next to you getting the expensive Ice-Cream Sandwiches why you get the store brand.

Me personally I'd prefer to have this type of information that Internet offers. I'm not a penny pincher or even consider myself thrifty but if I can get the information to where I pay 50 bucks for a room instead of 100 then I'm going to use it.

..and I'm sorry but for the average person that does not look for these types of offers/deals/codes is a ......

[raidermatt]

:rolleyes:

[Pinnie]

Rock ON DR!!!!!!!!

I don't have to say a thing, you are quite eloquent!!!

Dh works for one of the "Big 3" and has for nearly 27 yrs. I wish when times were tough for the auto companies, they would have followed the LB and some of the other's thinking around here and didn't make all those cuts. Heaven knows I would have had LOT more DVC points now. ;)

Pin
remember the magic
DVC/BCV 2002

[raidermatt]

Matt, I'm saying that they are trying to find the regression equation between guest satisfaction and operating expenses in predicting park hours.

Maybe they are. Maybe they just haven't figured it out yet.

However, just because they have an equation, it doesn't make it correct. Their equation may tell them they've got it right, then they are left to scratch their heads when attendance doesn't recover as they thought it would. How do they account for guest satisfaction in their equation? Really, the ultimate determining factor is do the guests return in a year or two or three. Using your logic, if they don't return, you must cut hours because attendance is down again.

I don't know what the data are, and I've said before that they may have gone to far in the direction of operating expenses

Since their only response so far has been to continue to cut expenses, they apparently feel they have not gone too far.

I really am confident that when the crowd levels are high enough that they extend the hours beyond the posted ones, which are based upon expectations from data like resort bookings, etc.
Two problems with this.

1- Potential guests make decisions based on the information they have. Their primary source for this is posted hours. Last minute extensions do benefit guests who are actually there, but the benefit is generally lost on those who are in the planning stages.

2- The extensions have not been very widespread lately. Very few if any have happened over the Summer. Factoring in extensions as reason to plan a trip just can't be done.

No, actually I'm saying that 10 on a weekend night during a summer when crowds are lower than in the past is probably enough for most families not to be disapointed...And I use the fact that the parks are less crowded later at night (and hence the reason that other guests would like for them to remain open - less crowded) as the evidence to indicate that I am right. The point here is not the guests would rather do something else, the point is that there is enough something else's that MOST guests won't mind.
Define most.

First, Zero guests benefit from earlier hours, and at least a significant number are directly hurt by them. Even if 80% leave by 10pm anyway, 20% don't. That's a lot of guests

Second, ALL guests are hurt at least indirectly by the decreased hours. Most of the guests that used to use the 10pm-Midnight period will now try to fit their activities into the time before 10pm, making the park more crowded for everyone.


there comes a point where the attendance in the park is not enough to generate revenue to pay the expenses of keeping the park open. So, I think they have walked that line between guest satisfaction and operating expenses for the majority of guests.
Its good that you are so confident. I look at a 6% drop since 1999, and a slower recovery from last year than their competition, and I see the distinct possibility that they are wrong. They sacrificed long-term guest satisfaction in an attempt to bolster short term profits. You are confident this will not hurt them. I am not. You think that there was enough excess satisfaction that the removal of some will not have a negative impact. I disagree. However, if I'm wrong, attendance will recover along with the economy. I just think that the fact that its starting to fall behind the economic recovery is rather telling.

And yeah, going to downtown disney is one of them - along with the resort pool, pleasure island, mini golf, a decent meal, cirque, disney quest, the boardwalk, etc.
AGAIN, these options exist whether the park closes at 4pm or 3am. How is closing the parks earlier not reducing the options?


Last May we we were at wlv and the MK closed at 6 on week nights. We enjoyed the hot tub, good drinks and food, watching the water pagent, relaxing and enjoying our evenings a couple of nights, and went to epcot and mgm and dtd on others.
That's great, there are lots of options, EXCEPT to stay in MK. And I think its important to note the biggest reason WDW exists is the parks.

If we follow your logic, it would mean closing MK at 4pm would not be a problem since all of those other options are available then too. (In fact, there's even more, like renting a boat...)

I just realized something. We get there on a Friday in Sept. and the MK closes at 6, so we realized that after it closes would be a really good time to go to market place to get some new toys from the new toy store. So maybe you do have a point about downtown disney
Sure, you have to do the best you can with your vacation based on the options available. However, that doesn't change the fact that you have fewer options. Its fine if you don't care that the MK option is not there, but you do have to acknowledge that the parks are the biggest draw for WDW, and MK is the most attended park. Therefore, there are going to be a lot of guests who consider the lost option a negative to consider when making future plans.

[raidermatt]

Senor Scoop-

It was in reference to this comment-
..and I'm sorry but for the average person that does not look for these types of offers/deals/codes is a ......

[BRERALEX]

i have the time look all over and gladly do it for my family but like my dad who in the past didnt know i could hook him up he just called and booked concierge services without thinking twice.

and he doesnt have huge amoutns of wealth but he's still not a sucker. He saw a price and if thats the price thats the price.

i dont see anything wrong with that. some people have lives unlike me :p

ive checked into a resort at disney and thought damn is the person in front of me getting this place for the price i am? i dont think hahah sucker. thats just sad.

[All Aboard]

Using your logic, if they don't return, you must cut hours because attendance is down again. You've slammed into my #1 concern, because I think that IS the logic at Disney right now. And, on the converse, I fear that if attendance does rise, that operating hours may not return.

One of the hardest things to sell is increases in variable operating expenses just because business is "up." Everything needs to be revenue justified. If you cannot point directly to how much more rev you are going to get, the costs are not going to fly. ME said it himself when he referenced ongoing cuts as being "taken to the bottom line" when business returns.

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by BRERALEX
i have the time look all over and gladly do it for my family but like my dad who in the past didnt know i could hook him up he just called and booked concierge services without thinking twice.

and he doesnt have huge amoutns of wealth but he's still not a sucker. He saw a price and if thats the price thats the price.

i dont see anything wrong with that. some people have lives unlike me :p

ive checked into a resort at disney and thought damn is the person in front of me getting this place for the price i am? i dont think hahah sucker. thats just sad.

Sorry everybody for draging this out....but...

I don't go around thinking ha I got this room for X amount and that person paid XX amount. The only time the price of something comes into the picture with me is if I'm paying for it. I could personaly care less if you paid 100 while I paid 50. The park I would have problem with if you paid 50 and I paid 100. Then I would think that I've been "suckered". DO you see the difference?

Some people don't like looking for discounts or talking a car salesman down on the price of a car. Thats fine. Some people consider there time more valiuable then that. Everybody has their breaking point, at which something would just be considered not a good deal. According to you ,your father has no probelm with paying rack rate for concierge. I would. If I did I would consider myself a sucker for doing so espically if I knew that it could be had for a sizeable discount.

[Walt's Frozen Head]

The issue isn't really whether I think "man, that guy is a sucker for paying rack rate," it's whether the incremental profit they're making off of the guy at that moment is worth the gamble that he might end up thinking _Disney_ is treating him as a sucker.

If your customers decide they can't trust you, you're boned. End of story.

I think Disney has created an environment such that their customers, to a greater and greater extent, are discovering that they can't trust Disney to give the same kind of value the company once did; and that this is causing more and more people to do some mental math, at a time when Disney is taking gambles with their basic equations.

I agree with Greg, that Eisner's comments indicating that the budget cuts are expected to deliver the big results once attendance improves are tacit admission that the bulk of the cuts are strategic long-term cuts, not emergency temporary cuts.

-WFH

[mjstaceyuofm]

Now, if you only do the parks and care about nothing but being at the parks, well, this obviously holds less true. But, more and more every time we go, we find ourselves spending less time at the parks and more at the many other options which WDW now provides as opposed to in years past by...

You spend less time in the parks because a) the parks aren't open as long, b) the parks have less to offer than in years past (as evidenced by numerous attraction closures w/ no replacements), c) Disney wants you to spend more time at DTD, or playing mini-golf, or seeing La Nouba, or buying over-priced drinks on PI, etc., etc., etc...

My big problem with this is you pay to get into the parks. When the parks close early, you're forced into doing other things that typically cost you even more money. Disney intentionally structures things this way - that's what upsets me... And frankly, these other venues can be ridiculously overcrowded when Disney flubs its calculations on guests and hours. Case in point - ever been to DTD in February when the MK, AK, FW in Epcot all close by 7:00? It's absolutely ridiculous! You can't move let alone do any constructive shopping (translation: money-dumping into Disney's pockets....) It's a defeatist scenario :mad:

[BRERALEX]

My big problem with this is you pay to get into the parks. When the parks close early, you're forced into doing other things that typically cost you even more money. Disney intentionally structures things this way - that's what upsets me...

AMEN

I think Disney has created an environment such that their customers, to a greater and greater extent, are discovering that they can't trust Disney to give the same kind of value the company once did; and that this is causing more and more people to do some mental math, at a time when Disney is taking gambles with their basic equations.

AMEN

According to you ,your father has no probelm with paying rack rate for concierge. I would. If I did I would consider myself a sucker for doing so espically if I knew that it could be had for a sizeable discount.

well theres the thing he never knew of codes till i told him and thats why i was saying i wouldnt call other people suckers in a gnereal statement that people who pay rack rates are suckers.

i even further said as a joke i have no life like others to go crazy looking for codes changing dates rechanging dates and sometimes changing dates again like i read about on the dis doing

and yeah time its just too essential for some to even save a hundred or two. everyone is different.

and blanket statements like people who pay rack rates are considered suckers is ignorant. like i said before real simple. i dont wanna drag this out either.

actually i dont care either way cause on the 26th ill be in SUPER ROSE COLORED GLASSES MODE sipping my something polynesian drink at the poly concierge.

I think the magic kingdom should be open later. i paid for my annual pass to go to the parks not go to pleasure (ZZZzzzzzzz)Island or the market place or anywhere else.

I understand that with parks closing earlier the value of what i paid at my resort goes up cause i have more time to spend at my resort but the main reason i stay on in the poly is the use of the monorail to get to the park quick and get to bed quick after a long night in the park. In my family young and old frequent Mk the most. but this year i hav to switch gears and spend more nights in the other parks whcih i usually dont do. and to me its frustrating

[raidermatt]

Scoop- Shorter hours remove the option of being in the park at that time. There are two reasons that the other options that are listed do not make up for the park option being taken away.

1- Most of the other options require a separate fee. Either a stand-alone or its built in to our AP or Hopper. Cost is a factor when folks decide where to go on vacation.

2- The parks are THE attraction for most people visiting WDW. Yeah, they might play golf, do some shopping, or lounge at the pool. But if there are no parks, most are going somewhere else. So that needs to be considered. The Water Pageant might be a nice add, but does it really offset earlier park closures for most guests? I really don't think so.

So sure, if you count up the different things you can do, sure, there are more today than in the past. But most of those options have a cost, which is not lost on most people, and they don't equal their favorite option, the parks.

That's not to say these other options shouldn't be there, or they shouldn't charge for peewee golf. The pools and other activities are great. They just have to be careful about trying to force people to substitute those things for their main attraction.


As for you second point, ugh.;)

Yes, I'll grant the point that if a guest takes greater advantage of resort activities, they are getting better value for their resort dollar.

But does that translate into guest satisfaction? Only if the guest realizes they really would prefer these other activities over being in the park. I'm sure a small percentage come to this realization, but for those who would still prefer later park hours, their satisfaction has been decreased.

Look, I'm not saying that mine or anybody else's vacation is ruined by earlier closings. My family will still go, and we will do exactly what you do, take the best option available to us. But we are not as happy about it as we would have been. For us, its not enough to keep us from going, but for those who were more on the fence, it will be.

[Bob O]

thedscoop not everybody who visits the theme parks at wdw stays on site and can use the xtra time to be at their themed resort.
Disney has reduced the hours of the parks intentionally in a attempt to force them to spend money on other things be it mini golf/dtd as examples. Disney show's more concern about the off park attractions than they do about the in park attractions which is why they do nothing about 20K but are happy to add mini golf. That is why more is done in building hotels or DTD than in updating and expanding the in park attractions, unless of course they can use a parade as a vehicle to sell snowglobes.
I know alot of people here will stay on site no matter what disney does and that whats the company banks on, that they have built up goodwill so their fans will swallow whatever they are given. I wouldnt stay on site now as i dont fell the value is their for the price paid and im not staying on site at DL for the same reasons.

[raidermatt]

Now, if you only do the parks and care about nothing but being at the parks, well, this obviously holds less true.
No, no, no, no, no, no, etc.....;)
One doesn't have to care about NOTHING but the parks. One has to only prefer to be at the parks at that time for your premise to not apply.

That's it.

Think about your favorite restaurant. If they remove your favorite dish from the menu, or reduce the portions, does it automatically mean you won't go back? No, but it does mean you are less satisfied. And you are now more likely to go to your formerly 2nd favorite restaurant.

That's what reduced hours does to WDW. Period. In a few cases, somebody might realize they found things they prefer to do rather than be in the parks. But there are going to be more people that would still prefer the later hours.

Taking the macro point of view, guest satisfaction has definitely been reduced (maybe not yours, Scoop, but for the "average" guest). The only question is what does this do from a business pov? Does the cost reduction and revenue generated (mini golf, DD, etc) offset the guests who don't come back?

On day one, it probably more than does. Most guests are not fanatical about checking hours and such like we are. They just remember that they used to stay at MK until Midnight or 8pm, or whatever, and now it closes 2 hours earlier. Its not until they would normally return, 2-3 years later, that the negative impact will be felt.

Well, I believe the cuts in hours began in '98 or '99. Guess what? Its been about 3-4 years for the first guests who experienced those early cuts. As the cuts have progressed, it follows that any impact will increase. And the cuts are continuing to progress...

[raidermatt]

As I see it, WDW has become a much "better-rounded" or "complete" or "diverse" resort with these additions rather than just a place with some great parks and resorts.
For the most part, I agree. I am happy to have those other options, and sometimes use them. I just think its a big mistake to lose sight of what is still the primary draw, the parks. Cutting from what unquestionably is the #1 option for the majority of guests is a huge risk, even if you add 2 or 3 other options.

[raidermatt]

One of the hardest things to sell is increases in variable operating expenses just because business is "up." Everything needs to be revenue justified. If you cannot point directly to how much more rev you are going to get, the costs are not going to fly. ME said it himself when he referenced ongoing cuts as being "taken to the bottom line" when business returns.

Good point. Management has to have an understanding that if attendance goes up, and hours/expenses do not, it reduces guest satisfaction. Reduced guest satisfaction can have a tremendous long term impact, though the short term impact maybe negligible. Everything may look fine for a quarter, a year, or even 2-3 years. But eventually, it has to catch-up.

And if mgmt didn't understand that when they started the cuts, they aren't likely to understand it when the impact rolls around.

So they respond in the same fashion: Attendance down, hours down. Attendance up? Hours the same. (or even down, according to this October).

[DVC-Landbaron]

Doctor D-R,

You know, truthfully, I understand your view on this and I don't think I want to bother to continue debating it, because I'm not sure what point there is to continuing.It appears that you do indeed want to bother to continue the debate. So I will asume that this passage was for me in particular?

[d-r]

Well, LandBaron, it was at the same sitting and I couldn't help myself from making a few more replies, but I think I meant it generally and not you particularly - I find the debate tiring because it is almost to the point of politics, religion and college football - no one is going to change anyone else's mind at this point. I did have some more time to think about your point about options, which is an important one - I think I figured out why they seem not be offering e-nights during the off-season. I couldn't figure it out, because it seems like it would pay for itself. It probably does at the MK, but I realized that I wasn't thinking about all of the "options" - when crowds are particularly low, they need people to go to the epcot and mgm which are still open, so the <5K people at e-night are pulling people that could be at those two parks, so the revenue isn't there to maintain the others - I wasn't thinking of all of wdw as a system, just isolating out a park of it. Anyway, thanks for helping me to that insight, though I know that wasn't what you were intending.

Again, I am not at all sure where the breaking point is terms of guest satisfaction for the majority of guests, and if they have passed it or not. I honestly believe that they are doing the best they can with the current variables and that it will turn around.


DR
Anyway, I think I'm done - if you were asking because you are holding out for the last word go for it :)

DR

[BRERALEX]

can the DIS turn up the AC its gotting hot in here and detracting from my magic loloolol j/k MAN IM FUNNY

[DVC-Landbaron]

Anyway, I think I'm done - if you were asking because you are holding out for the last word go for itNot at all. Just wasn't quite sure what to do next. And now I am.

I'll just say....

Thanks for the discussion!!! :bounce: