E-Ticket Nights- Just a Replacement for Late Hours or a Real Deal [Archive] - The DIS Discussion Forums

DVC-Landbaron

08-02-2002, 02:00 AM

Started out as something great.I beg to differ, Mr. Kidds! Scoop isn’t the only one with an inside ‘scoop’. I have it on VERY good authority (former VP Greg Emmer, see I’m not afraid to name names!!) that it was started as a cost cutting measure brought on by fears that the rampant wild fires in Florida would keep the tourists away in the summer of 1997 or 98 (I can’t recall, at the moment, which year it was). Anyway, the hours were cut by one hour for the first time EVER that year. E-Tickets were installed to recoup some of the lost revenue. It’s just that simple!!!We'd do Epcot until Illuminations and closing, hot foot it over to the MK and see the fireworks and parade there, and then, this wonderful new option appeared - for $10 bucks we could stay till 2 am. Come on Baron - you couldn't have had a problem with that.But I do!! I really do!! Because…
I, too, remember the days of E-night until 2 am. Back before the kids arrived we were the Baron and Baronesse.I, too, remember a time when we stayed in the MK until two, EVERY NIGHT OF THE WEEK!! Two, that’s right count ‘em, TWO parades every night!! The MK closed at one o’clock in the morning!!! Main Street, the ENTIRE Main Street, stayed opened until 2:00!!! And there wasn’t a vacuum cleaner in sight (or sound) five minutes after the second parade!!! All included in the basic ticket price!!!

Ahhhh! Now that was MAGIC!!!!

Sir Larry! You sized it up nicely: I see why Baron likes the idea of late hours so much. It just seems to be an inherent part of The Magic.’nuff said!!

Now, Scoop!! we're willing to pay to get rid of crowds. I guess that sounds kind of conceited or whatever but we plain and simple hate being around the large crowds.And you think we summer people like crowds!!! More than half of my Disney thought goes into avoiding them! And I have to work hard at it. Harder than the 'off-season' folks, I'll wager! And I was good at it!! Very good!! Before 1998 I prided myself, with no such thing as an e-ticket night, of NEVER waiting more that fifteen or twenty minutes (tops) in a line. EVER!!! NO MATTER WHAT THE RIDE!!! That has changed now. It is simply IMPOSSIBLE. Unless, of course, you fork over the twelve bucks (before tax) for the privilege!!

DisneyKidds

08-02-2002, 02:30 AM

I, too, remember a time when we stayed in the MK until two, EVERY NIGHT OF THE WEEK!! Two, that’s right count ‘em, TWO parades every night!! The MK closed at one o’clock in the morning!!! Main Street, the ENTIRE Main Street, stayed opened until 2:00!!!

This was during the 80's? I don't believe it was during the 90's - not EVERY NIGHT OF THE WEEK!! Most of our early 90's trips involved driving back to Tampa after MK closing - and that was always midnight on the days we were there. Of course you probably have evidence to prove me wrong - but sometimes things are remembered as better than they really were after they are gone. Maybe the memories get a little fuzzy? In that summer of 97 or 98 you state hours were cut by 1 for the first time ever. I distinctly remember E-night from 11 to 2. That implies that the hours pre E-night were until midnight - that magic hour that everyone is pining away for. While you are correct about the two parades, as to hours EVERY NIGHT till 1 am - I'm gonna need that proof. Regardless - losing 1 hour to get 3 back for $10 was a great thing for us. By that point in the night all we really wanted to do was more of the E ticket attractions anyway. It extended the night without lines. Ok, maybe it wasn't the 80's. Do you still listen to Devo ;)? Calling Mr. Morrow, Mr. Tom Morrow - it's time to leave yesterday and join us Mr. Baron ;). Sadly, now E-night only gets you to where the hours used to be, unlike in its early days. So, maybe the motivation was not strictly guest driven - but they made a very good situation out of what they saw as a necessary change. Then they ruined it.

DVC-Landbaron

08-02-2002, 02:54 AM

This was during the 80's?Actually it was just before EPCOT’s opening.
Of course you probably have evidence to prove me wrong - but sometimes things are remembered as better than they really were after they are gone.No. The memories are quite clear. Sometimes the writing isn’t. And sometime the reading isn’t. I never gave any dates as to when the MK was opened until 1:00. All I said was that I remembered when it was. I guess you filled in the dates that I omitted!! Regardless - losing 1 hour to get 3 back for $10 was a great thing for us.I couldn’t disagree more and not come to blows!! We lost an hour – EVERY NIGHT!!! We gained three hours for one night only. And it was the whole park that we lost in that hour a night. Only to pay for an eighth of it! Not very equitable in my book! And that was only the start. Now we lose two hours a night for a purchase of three. Even more inequitable! E-tickets would only be “such a deal” if they hadn’t messed with the hours in the first place. As it is I’m buying back much less time than they took, for WAY less park! Do you still listen to Devo?Never did!! Beatles, Moody Blues, Pink Floyd, Zepplin, Queen, Beethoven, Mozart, Wagner, Liszt and it all started with the Dave Clark Five!! How’s that for being “back in the day”!!!???Maybe the motivation was not strictly guest driven - but they made a very good situation out of what they saw as a necessary change.NO!!! It was wild fire driven!!! And what they made was a very good profit!!! Didn’t you read my first paragraph!?!?! ;)

BRERALEX

08-02-2002, 08:04 AM

well aside for being charged for what used to be free i also IMO notcied that when enight first stared theie weren't alot of people. this could be because of lack of people knowing about enight or to me that now they raised the number of guests allowed into enight. I remember there used to be a certain number of people allowed. But it seems even enight has a wait sometimes which wasnt the case when it first started.

d-r

08-02-2002, 09:52 AM

We typically go in off-season.

It doesn't surprise me that e-nights are something that wdw planned to increase revenue - of course it is. So is selling tickets to get in to the parks in the first place. It takes money to operate the parks. Of course they should make money off of an e-night - and the guest should get something for their money. I think it is well worth it to pay a small extra amount to be able to visit the magic kingdom with a limited crowd size. We have been to probably 4 or 5 e-nights, I don't really remember. I remember one that we too crowded and sort of a pain, with gazillions of toddlers sleeping in their strollers, and tomorrowland sounding like WWII nursary in London with all the crying from the over-tired toddlers in there. But besides that one experience, I love e-night. It has a special feel to it, quiet, calm, magical. It is more than worth 12 or 15 dollars or whatever it is - by the time we pay to fly to wdw and for the resort, that is a small cost, heck that is what a movie would cost if we just stayed home for the weekend. I love the limited nature of e-night, it feels special and cool.

But then, too, we often go for a long weekend, and not a three week stint, so the extra time and lower crowds are well worth it to us. I think it is a real bargain.

I see the economic side of it like this. I honestly believe that they keep the park hours set to maximize profits based on the number of guests who are in the park at that time - I think they try to balance the guests' experience with the economics of it. They may be cutting it too short now, but I am hopeful that they will get it right. I think that if there aren't enough people in the park to make it worth it to keep it open they should close it - think about it. Why do people want the parks open later? Because the crowds are lower. Guess what. The crowds are lower so it isn't as economical to keep the park open. We'd all love for them to keep the MK open just for us for free, but it can't work like that. If most of the people have gone back to the resort to wind down by the pool and put the kids to bed by 10, it doesn't make a lot of sense to keep the park open until 12 or 1 am on a week night for the benefit of a few guests. The trick is to balance the economic necessities with guest satisfaction. That balance isn't where it should be right now, they have to tweak it some to get it right.

But I think that e-nights are well worth it. My biggest disapointment is that they seem to have abandoned e-nights during the off-season and include them only during the high season. That seems like a bad way to do it to me - again, though, I recognize that there may be an economic necessity. I think that e-nights are a great solution in the off-season; there aren't enough guests to justify keeping three parks open late, and they want to keep the studios and epcot open for the illuminations and fastamic. So, e-nights give the economic ability to keep the magic kingdom open later a few nights. I have no problem with that at all - I just think that it is a shame they have moved the model of what should work for off-season to using it for high-season, and not using it at all for short season. Again, I see that as an economic decision. My hope is that they can get a balance between guest satisfaction and economics with the hours.

DR

raidermatt

08-02-2002, 12:00 PM

But then, too, we often go for a long weekend, and not a three week stint, so the extra time and lower crowds are well worth it to us. I think it is a real bargain.
Sure, its still a bargain for some people. That's like saying even though WDW has made cuts, its still a bargain. But the fact is, its not as good a bargain as it was when those hours were included with your original admission.

Maybe that's just the way its going to be. But that doesn't change the fact that its not as good as the prior situation for the majority of guests.

That balance isn't where it should be right now, they have to tweak it some to get it right.
With the posting of September and especially October hours, its becoming painfully clear that they ARE tweaking...but in the other direction.

At the current rate, we maybe seeing enights from 6pm-9pm next summer...

I think that e-nights are a great solution in the off-season; there aren't enough guests to justify keeping three parks open late
Problem with that is, there are also less people to pay for enights in the off-season. Since enights don't generate enough of a profit on these nights, they are not held. And hours stay in their shortened version.

DisneyKidds

08-02-2002, 12:31 PM

Hey Baron - get out of here - you aren't supposed to crawl out of your cave during the day ;). I was beginning to think 'Baron' was more significant than I thought and perhaps you were from Transylvania or something and you were a vampire :earseek:. You never seem to play with us until the wee hours, and you have a documented penchant for the evening :).

So it was the 80's - and sorry to fill in the dates. However, you paint a picture that the MK hours were till 1 am right up until 97/98 when they were cut for the very first time and they suckered us into paying for E-nights. Not the case.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here (and I know you are waiting with the saw :eek: ) but I bet you weren't in car #3 back in 1990 when the MK hours were ONLY until midnight. There was still MHB, and chocolates with the bill, etc., etc. Sure, you didn't care for the GF and were probably alone on that one. All was generally good with the world and the nibbling had not really begun. A good majority of that was maintained and then you could have a good, IMHO, E-night option.

I couldn’t disagree more and not come to blows!! We lost an hour – EVERY NIGHT!!! We gained three hours for one night only. And it was the whole park that we lost in that hour a night. Only to pay for an eighth of it! Not very equitable in my book!

I didn't say it was equitable - I said it was good for us. Back into that 'I like' neverland. However, not everyone went to the MK EVERY NIGHT!!! I think for most the E-nights initially were a very good thing - for everyone except the vampires that is ;). Yes, they made it worse and now it is a travesty. But initially E-nights felt like a Magical thing. The whole park to wander, the best rides to ride, all to yourself as the tickets were limited. It was Magic - screw the motivation. Maybe if all I was listening to was my best of the 80's album I might have felt differently. Sadly, it isn't Magic anymore.

And what they made was a very good profit!!!

OMG - you mean WDW makes a profit off of guests. Here I thought it was a not-for-profit organization :rolleyes: .

All silly music references to you being stuck in the 80's aside, I know and completely agree with your Zeppelinesque taste in music. I bet you are an Emerson, Lake, and Palmer guy too - Trilogy is a great album. However, listen to 'From the Beginning' a few more times and apply it to your relationship with WDW ;).

Don Karnage

08-02-2002, 12:34 PM

going along with what BRERALEX said....

I just got back last week and did two e-nights during the stay. The second time (a Tuesday night) had 35 minute waits for Space, Splash and Thunder. I know this is less than what you would wait during the day, but it is much more than what I expect from e-night.

What is the number they supposedly limit the crowd to? Has anyone ever been told "Sorry, all the e-night tickets are gone for tonight." Come to think of it, I am not sure I have ever read anything official saying 'attendance is limited to x people.' Is this just a misunderstanding on my part?

OK, I was never completely thrilled with the idea of paying extra for something that I perceived as formerly free BUT I still though it was worth it for the limited crowds and insignificant waits (under 10 minutes.) I don't always get the same value anymore.

Tik Tok

08-02-2002, 12:52 PM

As long as people are willing to pay for this little "bonus", Disney's never going to do away with it. That's just how they are - anything to make a bigger profit -- even if it means ripping people off. It's really sad when you think of all the wonderful perks you used to get for just the price of admission.

But I guess that's the price we have to pay for the rapid and uncontrolled expansion of the Disney theme park empire. That's what happens when one resort has to support 4 theme parks - especially when some of them aren't performing very well...

BRERALEX

08-02-2002, 01:14 PM

I thought there was a limited number thats what i thought i read but this could turn into refillable mug thing were noone knows for sure. but hey im glad Don Karnage noticed lines on enight which wasnt the case the first time i did it but the last time which was last august even buzz had a long line. The park was packed with people with wrist bands.

enight drives me crazy either way cause i remember being in the park for free til midnight alot and a couple of times in august. I always go in august.

(INSERT BEATING DEAD HORSE HERE)
nothing we can do

I also remember telling my friends "yeah DW is great they do fireworks EVERY night" owell.

Call me crazy but i think years and years from now from competition i beleive the parks wil be open till crazy late hours. but i mean years from now decade or two. After we've revovered from this economy and horrible management i think because of competition all around parks will be open later.

BRERALEX

08-02-2002, 01:26 PM

just so you know there saying on the theme parks board (bucnch of freaks J/K) that now august 26 (only) has extended hours till a big ol 7. and two enights that week there were non before.

they threw me abone and im biting.

why just august 26th? Its like some geek at the disney website said "let me try this and see how many emails we get in response!!!"

raidermatt

08-02-2002, 01:36 PM

Here's an interesting question...

Why aren't enights promoted more heavily? There is very little info on them available through Disney promotional material.

Now, before somebody says its because there are a limited number of spots and they don't want to disapoint guests, remember that enights are being canceled during slower periods. Wouldn't it make more sense to promote them a little more

Sure it would. IF you wanted all of your guests to know you were offering them. So clearly, Disney does NOT want everyone to know about them. So much so, that they'd rather not have them than promote them. They just want to have them if "word of mouth" is enough to generate interest...

What does that mean?

Maybe they get significant amounts of flak from guests who are angry that the reason they can't stay at MK as late is because of Enights? Maybe they don't want enights showing up in press articles, since its unlikely the press would give them favorable treatment for the move? So Disney lets the word of mouth get to those who are interested, and tries to minimize the number of guests who are more likely to be upset.

Just a theory, of course, but if there is some truth to it, what does that say about the wisdom of offering a product that you don't want too many customers to find out about for fear of offending them?

YoHo

08-02-2002, 01:39 PM

My first E-night was a pretty magical expireance, but then it was me and my Girlfriend (now wife) strolling through the park hand in hand. Had little to do with anything Disney was or wasn't doing for me.

airlarry!

08-02-2002, 01:44 PM

I think I see where Sir Baron is going...check me if I am wrong, LB.

What E*night started as, was a replacement for late hours. In other words, my first experience there with it was hours from 11-1 a.m....or roughly what would have been open anyway but sans second parade, 75% of attractions, and all but a handful of shops and eateries. It was just a way to cut hours and staff, and still make money, and seemingly not upset loyal people by not advertising this 'secret' little deal. I know that is the way I felt that night...wow! I have the MK to myself!

I had forgotten that I used to get it that way almost every night anyway.

Right LB? It upset you that they charged for something you were getting anyway. And now to add injury to insult, they've cut the hours even more!

BRERALEX

08-02-2002, 01:46 PM

thats sweet.

I remember the same stroll but free.

and now like some else said the next enight will be like 7-10 or 9. so now what we used to used to get free were even getting charged for. sounds great.

DisneyKidds

08-02-2002, 02:19 PM

I'll keep banging my 'in the early E-days' drum....

In other words, my first experience there with it was hours from 11-1 a.m....or roughly what would have been open anyway but sans second parade, 75% of attractions, and all but a handful of shops and eateries.

No - couldn't be. E-nights have always been 3 hours. So you'd have E-hours from 11 - 2. At that time, 'regular hours' (the 'had been' hours) were till midnight - regardless of what the good Lord Baron says. So you didn't get the hours you'd have had anyway. Furthermore, when MK was open till 11 they ALWAYS had 2 parades. Yeah - you got less attractions, the E ticket rides - E-night, get it? A handful of shops and eateries - ok. However, E-nights are pretty much for die hards - most of whom are looking for the E-ticket rides. No big eateries, but who's going to chow down at 1 am? Most die hards weren't at E-night to shop either. Some are so willing to paint a tainted negative picture. Sure, maybe if portrayed accurately was still a negative for some - but at least portray it accurately.

I do agree, E-night represented one step back and two steps forward (and a little scratch out of pocket). But in the beginning it was a good value, IMHO. Now it is a rip off.

YoHo

08-02-2002, 02:24 PM

If I recall correctly, Landbaron's original comments about park hours were that they were always open til midnight, but they NEVER EVER actually made you leave till 1-2 AM. So in effect it was an E-Night that you didn't have to pay for.

BRERALEX

08-02-2002, 02:28 PM

Disneykidds how many times have youve been to disneyworld? had to rephrase that cause it comes off bad when all i am is curious. I mean if everyone had been there when the park was open till midnight soemtiems 1am an now we have to pay for that "privelege" everyone would be upset

I dont think its just diehards that go for enight. i think a big percentage arent die hards. and lets define enight as not really EXCITING rides. haunted mansion, timekeeper, POTC, country bears, wedway people mover (cant remember the current name) arent big e ticket rides anyways.

youve never seen people eating at 1200am in the parks killing some emu legs and munchin on hot dogs?

I primarily go to the magic kingdom not for the rides but just to be there.

And we are bing short changed by the cleverly marketted enight when its marketted at all.

raidermatt

08-02-2002, 02:28 PM

But in the beginning it was a good value, IMHO. Now it is a rip off.

I guess if they had only stayed a little bit greedy...

You know, its very possible that the plan all along was to test guest reaction and gradually make enights as early as possible without angering too many guests... (Hence the lack of publicity for enights, even today, as well as the continuing shortening of hours beyond even post 9/11 levels)

I was watching Wall Street last night, and a quote comes to mind...

"You can't get a little pregnant."

DisneyKidds

08-02-2002, 03:03 PM

As the good Baron posted......

I, too, remember a time when we stayed in the MK until two, EVERY NIGHT OF THE WEEK!! Two, that’s right count ‘em, TWO parades every night!! The MK closed at one o’clock in the morning!!! Main Street, the ENTIRE Main Street, stayed opened until 2:00!!!

There was a day when the MK was open until 1 - rides and all, with Main Street open until 2. It just wasn't in the same decade as E-nights.

Alex - that would be about 18 times in 11 years, dating back to 1991. Probably 21 or so if you count when I was a kid. I knew someone would say 'it isn't just E-ticket rides'. Your're right, but those are the main attraction of E-night from a ride perspective. HM and POTC are definitely E-ticket rides, remember that E-ticket does mean something. Whether you find them exciting is another story. Also - I don't believe E-nights were targeted to those who weren't interested in rides. Agreed - if you didn't want to do rides the loss of an hour was big and E-night did nothing to compensate in any way.

I still maintain that you have to be somewhat die hard - not a die hard ride fan, but a die hard WDW fan - to sit bleary eyed on Splash Mountain at 1:45 in the am or walk bleary eyed down Main Street at that hour. As Matt pointed out - E-nights are not heavily promoted. It was the more knowlegeable Disney fan that likely was aware. Now E-nights are not for die hards because you have to go just to have reasonable hours. Remember, I am talking about the early days of the 'E-night'.

Yes, someone will eat a hotdog or one of those disgusting turkey legs at midnight - and I believe you could still get them. But was/is there a need for all the restaurants to be open. I highly doubt anyone was going to go to the buffet at the Crystal Palace at midnight. Furthermore, in the early days of the E-night the number of guests at E-night was significantly less than the regular daily attendance. Of course not all the eateries would be open as there weren't nearly enough people to eat all that food during E-hours.

You know, its very possible that the plan all along was to test guest reaction and gradually make enights as early as possible without angering too many guests... (Hence the lack of publicity for enights, even today, as well as the continuing shortening of hours beyond even post 9/11 levels)

Possible. It is also possible that they made what they felt was a necessary business decision that did provide something of value to some guests - and the real greed kicked in later.

BRERALEX

08-02-2002, 03:12 PM

I still maintain that you have to be somewhat die hard - not a die hard ride fan, but a die hard WDW fan - to sit bleary eyed on Splash Mountain at 1:45 in the am or walk bleary eyed down Main Street at that hour.

oh ok i thought you meant like die hard e ticket fans in general cause then thats why i was arguing enight wouldnt be that great for a person lookin for three hours of crazy crap your pants excitement.

bleary eyed and destroyed feet. thank god when they used to really plan things they planned mk so when you walk out your walkin down hill phew.

and they added two enights to the last week of august if anyone is goin then which i hapen to be so im happy

raidermatt

08-02-2002, 03:14 PM

It is also possible that they made what they felt was a necessary business decision that did provide something of value to some guests - and the real greed kicked in later.

Only problem with that is if it was done because it was necessary, it would have been reversed when the need disappeared. In this case, that means when the fires dissipated.

So under your scenario, greed as the sole reason must have kicked in pretty quick...

DisneyKidds

08-02-2002, 03:40 PM

So under your scenario, greed as the sole reason must have kicked in pretty quick...

Agreed ;). I really didn't know that info about the fires being a factor in the hours/E-night equation. But if the fires were a factor it kind of means greed perhaps wasn't? Once they figured they could cut more, charge more and let more people in, which probably happened pretty quick, the greed took over.

I get the feeling I'm being led into agreeing that greed became and is a primary motivating factor - a position I haven't always entirely agreed with. So lets talk about 'greed'. I don't want to get caught with my pants down and be called inconsistent in my opinions. The bottom line has become and is a major factor. Increase the bottom line, make more return on investment, greed, whatever you want to call it - I still don't think WDW has a bunch of Scrooge McDucks sitting up in Cinderellas castle counting the hoards of money they are stealing from the pathetic, unsuspecting, or apologist guests. Management is trying to survive. Yes, they have made mistakes, and that requires them to work harder to survive, and that can lead to more mistakes, and so on. Business can be a bit** and if what Scoop is hinting at is true, current management will not survive.

YoHo

08-02-2002, 03:45 PM

Actually Open til middnight was very very regular in the Early to mid 90s. Again, Landbaron also remarked in the past how even in the 90s, Disney would remain open well past the stated hour of closing. now they rush you out with street sweeper so that only the priveleged with thicker pocket books can take advantage.

DisneyKidds

08-02-2002, 04:32 PM

Actually Open til middnight was very very regular in the Early to mid 90s.

Yes, as I pointed out several times. So when they closed at 11 on E-nights they only took away one hour - granted, that was a significant hour. But to say that when they instituted E-nights they took away two or three hours..... that is overstating to make a point.

Landbaron also remarked in the past how even in the 90s, Disney would remain open well past the stated hour of closing. now they rush you out with street sweeper so that only the priveleged with thicker pocket books can take advantage.

Actually, no. I have no need to rely on what the good Baron says in this regard. I know the Baron really dislikes those d*** sweepers - but they don't sweep you out, especially on E-nights. You may need the thicker pocket book to ride the rides, but it isn't necessary to linger past closing. On our May trip THIS YEAR we were walking AND shopping AND eating on Main Street 45 minutes after park 'closing'. Disney has and does let you linger. They have never kept the rides open past the stated closing time - unless they did so in the 80's. Now, on E-nights, it is probably easier to linger on Main Street without a wristband because the park is still 'open'. I don't believe they check wristbands on Main Street - at least they didn't when E-nights first started, or at least the E-nights we went to. Perhaps that has changed, but I doubt it. Heck, when we went to MVMCP last year there were tons of people in the park DURING the party without a ticket/wristband. I sincerely doubt they police a $12 E-night any more stricktly.

airlarry!

08-02-2002, 04:34 PM

Did I type 11-1? Sorry 'bout that, DK. Typo. I had originally typed in my earlier message the correct time: 10-1.

It was 10p to 1a. Three hours. Two of which, you must admit, we had previously gotten for free. I was there at the end of the nineties, and the MK was staying open till 12 p. The premise sold to me back then was NOT additional hours--it was the idea that we were kicking the other people out to enjoy the park for ourselves. Selfish? Yes. I could ride all the little rides, enjoy the sights and sounds, and tell the kids "We'll get to Splash tonight when the lines are short."

That's why I never had a problem with it back then. It wasn't that I was paying for hours I already had, it was that I was getting the park to myself. And it was a hidden benefit to staying on-site.

DisneyKidds

08-02-2002, 04:38 PM

Gotcha Larry - I didn't have a problem with it 'back then' either :). The poll option of 'combination' has significance because the value of E-night has changed over the years.

YoHo

08-02-2002, 05:23 PM

In the Early 90s, the rides remained open after closing. not as long as in the 80s, but they did remain open.

raidermatt

08-02-2002, 06:07 PM

The bottom line has become and is a major factor. Increase the bottom line, make more return on investment, greed, whatever you want to call it...
Yes, it is clearly the major determining factor. And I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, in and of itself.

Management is trying to survive. Yes, they have made mistakes, and that requires them to work harder to survive, and that can lead to more mistakes, and so on.
In all seriousness, the problem isn't hard work, either too much or too little. The problem is mgmt's apparent basic mis-understanding of what drives their bottom line over the LONG term, and with respect to the parks, possibly even over the short term. All the hard work in the world won't fix that.

A lot of this gets back to Scoop's pointing out the difference between a goods and service mentality.

If Disney produced widgets, and demand was down, they simply cut production. The people who are still buying the widgets don't care, because they still get their widget, and its the same as before.

But Disney's parks do not produce a tangible product. It's a service. And when you cut some services because demand is down, the guests who still are at your parks DO feel it. You have now diminished the value of your product to everyone.

I'm not talking about short term fixes to extraordinary short term problems, like wildfires, or the aftermath of 9/11. The vast majority of guests can accept TEMPORARY changes due to these issues. But when the tide turns, when what you touted as a reason for your cuts diminishes, you can't keep your cuts and expect nobody to notice. It appears that's what happened with enights, though it did take them several years for the process to evolve into today's world, where hours are 2-3 hours shorter, as opposed to the 1 initially.

What's even more disturbing is the reaction to the soft numbers in this past quarter. Times are not good right now, but certainly October of this yeaar is going to be better for Disney atttendance than October last year.

Guests accepted why hours were slashed late last year. Will they accepte why they are slashed even further this year?

This seems to be the same pattern as enights, only accelerated.

DVC-Landbaron

08-02-2002, 06:37 PM

There was a day when the MK was open until 1 - rides and all, with Main Street open until 2. It just wasn't in the same decade as E-nights.There was no need for “special”, separately purchased night to plan for (or around), my friend. Every night was an e-ticket night!!! We used to do Space and Thunder Mountains (with a stop at HM inbetween) with no lines whatsoever, within the last hour or so! More than enough if you visited the MK a couple times within your week’s stay. And you had the option to do it anytime you wanted!! Tuesday and Friday didn’t work for you? NO PROBLEM!!! Just drop by on a Sunday, see two parades, a fireworks show and enjoy the Magic of an e-ticket night (although not named that) all included in the price of your admission!! Ahhhh! And the PIXIE DUST filled the night air!!

Yes, as I pointed out several times. So when they closed at 11 on E-nights they only took away one hour - granted, that was a significant hour. But to say that when they instituted E-nights they took away two or three hours..... that is overstating to make a point.Read the above once again and see if maybe, just maybe it starts making a little sense to you!

DisneyKidds

08-03-2002, 01:19 AM

In all seriousness, the problem isn't hard work, either too much or too little. The problem is mgmt's apparent basic mis-understanding of what drives their bottom line over the LONG term, and with respect to the parks, possibly even over the short term.

True enough - something I have come to realize since 'you all' corrupted me. However, while I can see that management may not always get it there are times they do and, as evidenced by the 'can they exceed thread', there is an abundance of Magic to be had. Maybe you have to look in new places - but it is there. I still can't believe in all this time that the Baron JUST saw Beauty & the Beast!

Read the above once again and see if maybe, just maybe it starts making a little sense to you!

No need to read it again. I hear you and understand what you are saying. However, when E-nights first started the reduction of hours by one was marginal compared to the benefits we received. E-night had us in the park later than any other previous day in the 90's - with that same pixie dust filled air. Then it all went to crap and now with E-night you still aren't in the park as late as you were when the new millenium arrived.

DVC-Landbaron

08-03-2002, 02:21 AM

A lot of this gets back to Scoop's pointing out the difference between a goods and service mentality.Now I don’t want to pick at some nits, but… If you recall AV and JeffJewell (man whatever happened to him? I really like his style) have been pointing out that difference for over a year now.
[quote]I still can't believe in all this time that the Baron JUST saw Beauty & the Beast!What can I tell you. I have an affinity for robots and usually dispise the live shows at Disney. This was definitely an anomaly for me!!! :)

E-night had us in the park later than any other previous day in the 90's - with that same pixie dust filled air. NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE SAME PIXIE DUST!!! Mr. Kidds, you are perhaps forgetting that only two areas of the MK are opened and only nine rides (two or three of which don’t belong on the list at all and are only opened because the share the land with the true E-Ticket)!! That, my friend, is vastly different than the true PIXIE DUST of a midnight closing. And not just one thrown in when crowds are the heaviest. It needs to happen EVERY night in order to thin out the masses. Otherwise EVERYONE goes to the park, and stays until the end, on the one day that it does stay open late. No benefit there!! But if it’s an every night occurrence, then there are options again and everyone is not forced like cattle to “follow the herd”!!

Still making sense?

Jeff in BigD

08-03-2002, 03:59 AM

I've always been unhappy with the way WDW does their hours anyway & I think this is a prime example of the money people taking a leak on everyone & telling them that it's raining...and there are these high quality yellow rain ponchos that you absolutely must buy!

Tomorrow is a perfect example:
It's a Saturday in August, I think the majority of kids are out of school.
MK's hours: 9am-10pm (on a weekend!)
DL's hours: 8am-12am

Ok, how's about...let's say...a Tuesday.
8/06/02:
MK's hours:9am-10pm
DL's hours:8am-11pm

DL's main customers are people who live in the area, while people at WDW are on vacation. Doesn't it stand to reason that people will have more time to spend in the parks if they're on a vacation & don't have chores or work the next morning? Wouldn't it also make more sense to have later hours, especially since most people on vacation like to sleep in a bit?

Maybe I'm way off base here, but it seems like logic & scheduling are in completely different departments at WDW. :mad: :mad: :mad:

airlarry!

08-03-2002, 09:49 AM

DK:

With all due respect, your premise is flawed. It is not 'one hour' it is at least two hours. If it normally stays open until 12 or 1 just a few short years ago, but now closes at 10, that is 2 or three hours lost. Getting back e#night seemed great at the time, until you realize it is only 1/8 of the park for extra money.

I've been mulling this for days. I think I've worked it out in my head now. Let's see if it comes out.

The bad thing about mgt's e*night decision is that late night in the MK went from being a bonus to old-timers (Baron & I could hit all the major rides back then while other people were watching parades or fireworks and hit even more b/c after these, nomral Joe Blow heads back for his hotel tired, while Baron & I and our familiies ---who knew to rest up during the heat of the day---spend the last hour of the park in relative quiet. If you knew what you were doing -- ie. arrive early, eat & swim at the pool int he middle, and stay late -- you got The Magic Big Time. )

Now, the MK is becoming like Epcot, where we never really could enjoy lesser crowds before closing, b/c while Illuminations did syphon a lot of the crowd, it wasn't as much of an effect because IMHO the size and scope of the park and its attractions. AND THEN TO TOP IT OFF, Epcot closes right after the parade! So thousands and thousands retreat en masse to the exit like cattle--clogging up the bus systems like mad.

Back to the subject. ;)I went back on archive.org to check out old times for the MK, and suddenly in 1999 Deb Wills started talking about pre-midnight closings for the MK. Way before all this 911 mess.

All about the same time that AV relates that Eisner started preparing for the fall.

I don't want to accuse anyone of being Darth Vader here, but after the rash of corporate news lately, is there anyone here that doubts that changes like the cuts in hours combined with increased ticket prices or add ons is not a sign of a mgt team that is bleeding the company down a bit? This guy made $500 million in stock money in one year alone, and then took another $29 million in a year when Disney's performance faltered.

I truly believe that Eisner has seen the handwriting on the wall and is looking for the big pay out. I used to laugh when AV would write that -- thinking that corporate America cannot be that callous and greedy. Whoops! Was I wrong. How haughty can we be as shareholders if we think that our company could never be infiltrated by people that who care more fro the short term gain in stock then the long term damage to the company. Kind of an arrogant attitude when you think about it.

Pinnie

08-03-2002, 11:05 AM

Mind if I add my .02 worth here???

I, for one, don't mind paying the extra $12 for e-ticket night for a couple of reasons.

1. I already have a lot invested in the trip, so the extra $12 is moot.

2. It's a nice perk for resort GUESTS to enjoy the park after the "day trippers" leave.

I have been following the discussion here and got to thinking about how we, as consumers, look at "cuts". It used to be that a bag of potato chips was a full pound, now they are 14 oz, yet price didn't go down. Used to be every car had a cigarette lighter, now most companys only include the "lighter" if you purchase a "smoking package".

IMHO, I personally think the e-ticket is for the benefit of the RESORT guests.

I was supposed to go to an e-ticket night in July, but got sick during the day and didn't go. I was told by a CM that if I felt better later, as long as I arrived at the park before closing, I could stay with my group but NOT ride or do an attractions without the wristband. The stores on Main Street would be open for my "convenience", too.

Pin
remember the magic

Jeff in BigD

08-03-2002, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by Pinnie
IMHO, I personally think the e-ticket is for the benefit of the RESORT guests.
Yes, by screwing anyone staying in a hotel without "Disney®" as part of the name. :(

eeyore0062

08-03-2002, 04:51 PM

I think it is a perk, pure and simple! I don't mind paying the extra $12 bucks to go, and am glad it is offered. Otherwise, there wouldn't be anyway to go to MK at night in the value season, as they always closed early. Also, it is usually offered during the week during the regular and peak seasons, when the park wouldn't be open as late anyway. Unfortunately, no matter what WDW does, or doesn't do, it will never satisfy everyone.

DVC-Landbaron

08-03-2002, 05:36 PM

Also, it is usually offered during the week during the regular and peak seasons, when the park wouldn't be open as late anyway. So it’s OK with you that for seven nights a week they close the ENTIRE park two hours early as long as they give you the “perk” of being able to buy back an eighth of the park for an extra hour at over 20% of the full day’s cost?

WOW!! You’re easy!! Ei$ner wishes there were more of you around!!

Glenn

08-04-2002, 02:25 AM

ive gone to WDW since the late 80s always in fall and winter. The original idea for e night was fine but now the parks are closing earlier and earlier. So we dont really get an extra 3 hrs. Last dec when i went MK was packed on Sat & Sunday but they still had short hours. When i got home I realized for the first time that I hadnt bought anything at the partks besides food. I was too busy standing in lines and trying to see things. In the long run Disney actually lost money from me. Some of the magic is there but not like when i first started to go. :(

eeyore0062

08-04-2002, 01:29 PM

WOW!! You’re easy!! Ei$ner wishes there were more of you around!!

Yeah, maybe so, but since they are going to be closing the parks early anyway, why not offer some of us who are willing to part with the $12 that perk? I have no problem with it, and obviously there must be others who don't either, or else they wouldn't have been so up in arms about E ticket nights not being offered this past May.

I live near a highly popular and reputable theme park, which is closed for 4 1/2 months during the winter. When it does open in the spring, it is only open until 6 during the week, and 7, or if you are lucky, 8 on the weekends.

In the summer it runs 10-1O, but that doesn't start until mid June, when schools are out, and ends mid August when the kids go back to college. Then it reverts back to spring hours until the end of October.

The prices of the tickets are no less than those of a one day ticket at WDW, and they do not change according to what hours the park is open. I just don't understand why everyone is so upset, I guess... it could always be worse!

Testtrack321

08-04-2002, 01:48 PM

I would part with $12 if it ment we would actually do something different! If we stay to 11 pm at the park, yawn, how many times have we done that?!!?!?! It's staying till 2 am and riding Space 14 times in a row that I would park with my all-mighty money.

DVC-Landbaron

08-04-2002, 02:11 PM

Eeyore0062Yeah, maybe so, but since they are going to be closing the parks early anyway, why not offer some of us who are willing to part with the $12 that perk? Ahhh! And there’s the rub!! It all goes back to the park closing early! They create a need (i.e. closing the park early) and then fill that need with a 12 buck deal!! Hmmm. Seems to me there was a band salesman in River City Iowa that used the same tactics. Create the need (evil pool hall) and then fill that need (the boys band). I think the townspeople talked about tar and feathers…. Hmmm. HEY!!! Now that’s something we haven’t talked about before!! Think we can ride Ei$ner out on a rail!?!?!

I have no problem with it, and obviously there must be others who don't either, or else they wouldn't have been so up in arms about E ticket nights not being offered this past May.Heck!!! I hate the concept of e-ticket night. Yet I’d be the loudest voice if they had cancelled July’s. Why? Simple. It’s the only way that a body can do the things that need doing without standing in ungodly lines during the hot humid day. And again why? BECAUSE THEY SHORTENED THE HOURS!!! Kind of a vicious circle, wouldn’t you say?

I live near a highly popular and reputable theme park, which is closed for 4 1/2 months during the winter. When it does open in the spring, it is only open until 6 during the week, and 7, or if you are lucky, 8 on the weekends.

In the summer it runs 10-1O, but that doesn't start until mid June, when schools are out, and ends mid August when the kids go back to college. Then it reverts back to spring hours until the end of October.I keep asking and no seems answer. What in the heck does that have to do with Disney and the “STANDARDS” they set for themselves way back in 1955 and carried through until 1984 or so. They are either Disney or they are not. And what some local yahoos do with their amusement park is simply not relevant to they way Disney should operate.

Jeff in BigD

08-04-2002, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by eeyore0062
Yeah, maybe so, but since they are going to be closing the parks early anyway, why not offer some of us who are willing to part with the $12 that perk? I have no problem with it, and obviously there must be others who don't either, or else they wouldn't have been so up in arms about E ticket nights not being offered this past May.
I think it kinda of justifies their idea of closing the park early, no? If were to visit MK in September the park would close at 6pm on a weekend, which is unacceptable. 9 or even 8 I'd understand, but 6pm?! DL is open until 10. But maybe because people going to DL aren't such a captive audience, the customer's wants have a bigger hand in dictating the hours.

I live near a highly popular and reputable theme park, which is closed for 4 1/2 months during the winter. When it does open in the spring, it is only open until 6 during the week, and 7, or if you are lucky, 8 on the weekends.

In the summer it runs 10-1O, but that doesn't start until mid June, when schools are out, and ends mid August when the kids go back to college. Then it reverts back to spring hours until the end of October.
So are you saying that we should thank Eisner because it stays open 365 (even though that's the standard they've set for themselves & what we've come to expect)? I always thought the idea of Disney parks was to lead & not follow. WDW is not a "local" park. People come from all over the world to go to WDW. I'm not saying that no foreign tourists ever visit other parks, but I think it's a stretch to try to compare a local amusement park to WDW.

The prices of the tickets are no less than those of a one day ticket at WDW, and they do not change according to what hours the park is open. I just don't understand why everyone is so upset, I guess... it could always be worse!
I've yet to visit a single amusment park that can hold a candle to WDW or DL, (though Knott's comes closest & I've heard that IOA is pretty close too). Our local park is the only one & the orginal Six Flags (which has similar hours to the one by you). It's pretty much a captive audience, yet they feel the need to offer ticket discounts during the summer season. Pretty sad IMO. The reason everyone is upset is because they've set the expectations of what the cost of a ticket gets you & the tciket price has increased while the expectations haven't been completely met. I've heard that Fast Passes are soon going to be charged & I promise people will be livid. They'd be mad if they did away with the system all together (not having the option), but it still doesn't change the fact that now people expect Fast Pass to be free & they'll then turn around & say now that you're used to it you'll need to give us cash to keep doing it. Perhaps Eisner was a crack dealer in his early days?

DVC-Landbaron

08-04-2002, 03:11 PM

Perhaps Eisner was a crack dealer in his early days?HA!!! Another quote of the day to keep you smiling!!!!

Pinnie

08-04-2002, 04:41 PM

JeffinD,

The way I see it is that the consumer has a choice..either stay on Disney property or stay off site. Some off site places offer perks, (Hampton's "FREE" breakfast) some don't. When I stay at an AS, I sure don't expect the same "perks" that I get when I am at my DVC home.

Also, to further muddy the waters, DAK closes early yet the ticket price is the same as it is for the MK which has longer hours, WS opens later than FW, yet tickets are NOT discounted. Now, I am a newbie to these discussions, has anyone ever discussed that? If there is a link, please post it.

Thanks for the interesting discussion:)

Pin
remember the magic

Tik Tok

08-04-2002, 07:18 PM

You know, I would have no problem what-so-ever with E-Ride Nights if they just did them on weekdays during the off season. I mean, they always closed the MK down early in the winter anyway, so the E-ticket Nights could be seen as an added perk in the winter. But I cannot accept them doing them in the summer -- the MK needs to be open till at least Midnight every night during the summer season, like it used to be. There are just to many people there during the day, and the heat is terrible, for them to be closing at 10pm everynight.

I see it this way - E-rides in the winter would be giving something extra to the guests, but E-rides in the summer are taking something away from the guests, and it really sucks... :mad:

Jeff in BigD

08-04-2002, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by Pinnie
JeffinD,

The way I see it is that the consumer has a choice..either stay on Disney property or stay off site. Some off site places offer perks, (Hampton's "FREE" breakfast) some don't. When I stay at an AS, I sure don't expect the same "perks" that I get when I am at my DVC home.
Initially e-nights was a great idea & a nice perk for people staying at Disney hotels. The problem is now it's hours they would have been open before. It's basically making people pay for what should have been theirs from the start & punishing people for having the audacity to not stay at a Disney hotel. Regardless of which group someone falls in, they're getting screwed.

Also, to further muddy the waters, DAK closes early yet the ticket price is the same as it is for the MK which has longer hours, WS opens later than FW, yet tickets are NOT discounted.
The reason that AK closes earlier is because of the primary focus of the park, the animals - most of them are only awake while the sun is out, which is why the park also opens earlier than the other parks. I believe the reason that WS opens later has something to do with the fact that alcohol is sold in that section. Perhaps someone could shed a little more light on this? One of the main reasons they're all the same price is persuade people to buy park hoppers. I would spend $50 for a day at MK or Epcot, but I doubt I would for MGM & I know I wouldn't for AK.

I hate to keep comparing MK to DL (since MK always seems to be on the losing end), but people who go to DL always get more bang for their buck & end up paying $5 less for it. Is it wrong to expect at least a little parity, especially for paying more money?

Now, I am a newbie to these discussions, has anyone ever discussed that? If there is a link, please post it.Welcome aboard! I think you'll find we're a pretty diverse crowd, you've got Eisner Apologists, people with good ole days syndrome, people who don't care, etc. I think you'll find a common bond though, we all hate Pressler, oh yeah & our love for Disney too. ;)

Jeff in BigD

08-04-2002, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
HA!!! Another quote of the day to keep you smiling!!!!
LOL. Thanks, but I think I forgot to ad the obligatory *rim-shot* ;)

eeyore0062

08-04-2002, 08:15 PM

. WDW is not a "local" park.

I wouldn't call a park owned by Anheiser-Busch a "local" park, either.

Jeff in BigD

08-04-2002, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by eeyore0062

I wouldn't call a park owned by Anheiser-Busch a "local" park, either.
Perhaps not, but I think if Busch Gardens or the Sea World parks weren't within half a day's trip to Disney or other parks they wouldn't have nearly the amount of guests that they enjoy, while if the Bud parks vanished the effects on the Disney parks would hardly be felt IMO.

Pinnie

08-04-2002, 09:48 PM

Jeff in Big d,

First, thanks for the welcome! Much appreciated.

Second, I guess you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. I don't feel "Screwed" paying extra for e-ticket night. IF the hours were in writing somewhere, then I could say I agree with you. But as the disclaimer usually says, "Hours subject to change without notice". I also don't think it is "punishment" as much as it is "rewarding" the guests staying onsite. It is all in the perception.

As to AK, I understand that the park's open/close cycle is dependant upon animals. But, FL is on Daylight Savings Time, and during the summer the sun is out a LOT longer ....following that out, why isn't DAK open later in the evening when it's a bit cooler, because we all know that park is a sauna in the summer? Zoos up here do have longer hours in the summer. Just musing.....

I am an AP holder, and try and come down 2 - 4 times a yr. so it really doesn't matter all that much if WS opens later than FW.

As to DL, I was there last year and was disappointed how many attractions were down for rehab. The monorail was only operating one way, Matterhorn was down and don't even get me started on DCA!!! Only thing there that was worthwhile was Soaring. But it got me to thinking about *maybe* why they can extend their hours longer than WDW. They save a ton of money on transportation costs. They don't have to shuttle guests back and forth to resorts, and since they don't have the number of onsite resort guests, e-ticket nights are moot.

I guess I would be more upset if Disney was the ONLY company that is cutting some things that we, as long time guests, are used too, but they are not. I fly down and no longer get in-flight meals (Ok I know...airline food sucks) but it's not offered any more (nor can I even BUY a sandwich on board) and my ticket prices have risen ( that's the perk of living in a city that is a hub to a major airline).

Will any of these things keep me away? Nope. I know the bottom line is Disney is a business and needs to answer to the stockholders first, as much as I'd like to believe otherwise. If I don't like something, I will complain and hope that someone is listening. But I will choose my battles and if means closing a park a few hours early as opposed to closing a park altogether, then I know where my energy will go.

pin
remember the magic
DVC/BCV 2002

DisneyKidds

08-04-2002, 10:23 PM

Your airness and my good lord Baron - tag team WDW wrestling. I can take you both ;)...........

Now - before I lay into you remember my position. When E night was FIRST offered the parks went from being open until midnight, to being open until 11, with a three hour E-night.

So..........

late night in the MK went from being a bonus to old-timers (Baron & I could hit all the major rides back then while other people were watching parades or fireworks and hit even more b/c after these, nomral Joe Blow heads back for his hotel tired, while Baron & I and our familiies ---who knew to rest up during the heat of the day---spend the last hour of the park in relative quiet. If you knew what you were doing -- ie. arrive early, eat & swim at the pool int he middle, and stay late -- you got The Magic Big Time. )

Been there, done that, doing that.....the ONLY way to do WDW. You guys don't have a corner on the market when it comes to the most effective way to do WDW.

So how, and when did that change - and did it change completely? Now remember, we aren't talking the 80's and a 1 am close as a reference point. That was a decade gone by and we can't live in the past.

Lets wander down 90's memory lane. It is the Early 90's. The MK is open until midnight in the summer - EVERY NIGHT!!! (caps and exclamation thrown in for Baron - he likes those things ;)). What larry described above is the way to go. You still have that wonderful latenight (granted, not 1 am) when you finished watching the fireworks, or even the late parade, and then rode Splash Mountain three times in a row - WALK ON!!! Barons pixie dust filled the air. FAst forward to the late 90's and the advent of E-night in response to.........whatever. Now the park closes at 11 :(. However, a new option - for $10 you can stay in the park for another three hours. Most of your favorite rides are open and there is NOBODY!!! there. BTW - there were still two, count em two, parades and the fireworks. If you saw the early parade and then the fireworks you could still work your way over to your mountain of choice and ride it with no line. If you weren't staying for E-night there was still plenty of pixie dust - just an hour less to enjoy it. However, if all you could see fit to do was stand at the gate with your arms folded and say 'I want my hour back' you might not have known it. So, no..........

With all due respect, your premise is flawed. It is not 'one hour' it is at least two hours. If it normally stays open until 12 or 1 just a few short years ago, but now closes at 10, that is 2 or three hours lost. Getting back e#night seemed great at the time, until you realize it is only 1/8 of the park for extra money.

....at this point there is no flaw in my premise. You lost an hour (from 12 to 11) but got back three completely free and empty hour - just as empty, if not more so, that the 11:00 to midnight hour in the Pre E days. So it was 1/8 of the park - big deal. We knew we were doing E-night so we did all the non E-night stuff during the day and only needed the 1/8 that was open. So long as we didn't see fit to just stand there and say 'but this isn't open......... we had a GREAT time - and you know what, the magical pixie dust was there, at 2 am - a time when you could never have been there (remember - we aren't in the 80's anymore) - even though it was only 1/8. And you had options for making it work other ways. Perhaps you did Epcot until closing, which back in the day may have been 10, and then went to the MK and still had 3.5 hours to enjoy the best rides the MK had to offer. Without E-night and with a midnight closing you would have had only an hour and a half. Yeah, it was the whole park - but you can't do the whole park in an hour and a half - much less 3+. I will say it again - all of this was a fun filled, Magical good time for us. It was good for others as well, as TT points out.......

I would part with $12 if it ment we would actually do something different! If we stay to 11 pm at the park, yawn, how many times have we done that?!!?!?! It's staying till 2 am and riding Space 14 times in a row that I would park with my all-mighty money.

Riding rides until 2 am WAS DIFFERENT - and Magical. Riding your fave mountain again and again with no line WAS DIFFERENT - when you did it for THREE HOURS, as opposed to the one hour from 11 to 12 when you could have done it in the past. THAT was the case with E-night when it first began.

That is where my E-night good time premise stops. Fast forward another year + and it is down to a 10, 9, 8, 7, 6 closing and you are truely only buying back something you had peviously and should have had for the price of regular admission.

DVC-Landbaron

08-05-2002, 01:08 AM

Originally posted by Jeff in BigD
people with good ole days syndrome, Anyone in particular you had in mind, Jeff? ;)

manning

08-05-2002, 01:44 AM

Since when do you have to pay for a perk????????

manning

08-05-2002, 01:51 AM

Hey Landbaron, do you think Eisner is related to P.T. Barnum. He's pretty good at finding suckers.

Jeff in BigD

08-05-2002, 04:36 AM

Originally posted by Pinnie
I guess you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree.
True, but that doesn't mean we can't better explain the reasoning behind our opinions, no? :)

I don't feel "Screwed" paying extra for e-ticket night. IF the hours were in writing somewhere, then I could say I agree with you. But as the disclaimer usually says, "Hours subject to change without notice". I also don't think it is "punishment" as much as it is "rewarding" the guests staying onsite. It is all in the perception.
But again DL stays open much later & MK is the flagship park, so shouldn't there be a little parity among the two, especially with WDW having a higher percentage of visitors that aren't local? I'd feel the same way if the park consitently opened to the public at 9am & had an EE at 7am, then changed it to where the new opening times are 11am & started EE at 9am.

As to AK, I understand that the park's open/close cycle is dependant upon animals. But, FL is on Daylight Savings Time, and during the summer the sun is out a LOT longer ....following that out, why isn't DAK open later in the evening when it's a bit cooler, because we all know that park is a sauna in the summer? Zoos up here do have longer hours in the summer. Just musing.....
Because most guests view AK as a half-day park (much like MGM) & wouldn't want to really spend a full day there. Believe me if there was a way to convince guests to pay extra for staying longer at that park, they'd do it in a heartbeat, but the truth is they can't. Epcot is the only other park it might work at, but with as much walking needed as it does people are usually exhausted anyway. I do feel that the parks should run on a later schedule & wouldn't mind it a bit if it opened at, say 11am & didn't close until 11pm or 12am.

I am an AP holder, and try and come down 2 - 4 times a yr. so it really doesn't matter all that much if WS opens later than FW.
True, but for most guests the trip is either a one time thing or the trips are few & far between. I think if you polled most repeat guests (barring locals & the freaks like us ;) ) you'd find that most of them only come once every 2-5 years. While it might not be a big deal to you, it might be to them.

As to DL, I was there last year and was disappointed how many attractions were down for rehab. The monorail was only operating one way, Matterhorn was down and don't even get me started on DCA!!! Only thing there that was worthwhile was Soaring. But it got me to thinking about *maybe* why they can extend their hours longer than WDW. They save a ton of money on transportation costs. They don't have to shuttle guests back and forth to resorts, and since they don't have the number of onsite resort guests, e-ticket nights are moot.
I went in '99 & the monorail was only going one way (because of construction for DCA) & then I went in April 2001. Most of the rides were operational & if they were down, they weren't down for long. You do make a good point about the transportation, though wouldn't cutting down from a bus for each hotel to consolidating the bus to stop at all of the hotels make sense? We usually stay at the Disney Village, so we do share a bus with 8 or so other hotels. It seems sensable & I've never seen a completely empty bus. Perhaps I'm wrong & a DL guru can help me on this, but I believe that for a period of time they did offer e-nights & I know for a fact that they offer EE, even though they don't really need to.

I guess I would be more upset if Disney was the ONLY company that is cutting some things that we, as long time guests, are used too, but they are not. I fly down and no longer get in-flight meals (Ok I know...airline food sucks) but it's not offered any more (nor can I even BUY a sandwich on board) and my ticket prices have risen ( that's the perk of living in a city that is a hub to a major airline).
Yes, but we've come to expect more from Disney. If the shady guy down the street or even your grocer that you've been going to for years pulls a fast one on you, you just shake your head & either accept it or move on. If your uncle does it (& continually does it), you can't help but feel a deep sense of disappointment & sorrow.

Will any of these things keep me away? Nope. I know the bottom line is Disney is a business and needs to answer to the stockholders first, as much as I'd like to believe otherwise. If I don't like something, I will complain and hope that someone is listening. But I will choose my battles and if means closing a park a few hours early as opposed to closing a park altogether, then I know where my energy will go.
I realize where you're coming from, but I can't make myself believe that it's "this or nothing". I've never really been one to "settle" for things (maybe that's why I'm still single ;) ), especially when someone changes the deal or expectations just because of money. Yes, it is important, but if that's the sole factor driving the company these days, then Walt's dream truly is dead.

People buy Hondas because they last, they've come to expect quality & are willing to pay for it. Honda could lower the quality, while still charging what they had before. If they do though, they better let the folks know what they're getting themselves into & slap a Kia emblem over the H. They also shouldn't whine (or fire some random scapegoat) when people call them out for having a lesser quality product & sales drop. You can only ride on a repuation for so long & while it takes years to build a name, it only takes moments to destroy it. I just don't want the name Disney to be interchangable with the likes of Six Flags, etc. :(

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
So how, and when did that change - and did it change completely? Now remember, we aren't talking the 80's and a 1 am close as a reference point. That was a decade gone by and we can't live in the past.
Yes, but we can't ask why it was ok then to stay open that late & now they have to close at 6pm?

Lets wander down 90's memory lane. It is the Early 90's. The MK is open until midnight in the summer - EVERY NIGHT!!! (caps and exclamation thrown in for Baron - he likes those things ). What larry described above is the way to go. You still have that wonderful latenight (granted, not 1 am) when you finished watching the fireworks, or even the late parade, and then rode Splash Mountain three times in a row - WALK ON!!! Barons pixie dust filled the air.
Yes, I do (pardon the pun) remember the magic.

FAst forward to the late 90's and the advent of E-night in response to.........whatever. Now the park closes at 11 . However, a new option - for $10 you can stay in the park for another three hours. Most of your favorite rides are open and there is NOBODY!!! there. BTW - there were still two, count em two, parades and the fireworks. If you saw the early parade and then the fireworks you could still work your way over to your mountain of choice and ride it with no line. If you weren't staying for E-night there was still plenty of pixie dust - just an hour less to enjoy it. However, if all you could see fit to do was stand at the gate with your arms folded and say 'I want my hour back' you might not have known it. So, no..........
Yes, I wouldn't complain about an hour. I do think that it was a little uncool that even people who were on property (ie Disney Village) weren't able to to have the e-night as an option if the hotel didn't have Disney® as part of the name. We wanted to stay somewhere nice, so we'd stay at the Buena Vista Palace. It wasn't the sky high cost of a decent room at a premier Disney® hotel, but was certainly a lot nicer than the budget Disney® hotels. What killed me is that the staff at the hotel were cast members (mickey name tag & all) & you could buy tickets to the park in the lobby, but we weren't eligable for EE or E-nights. From what I understand this is the case with most DV hotels. I could see how a lot of people would get upset & find this to be pretty disingenous.

That aside I think 11 is a decent hour (though you might be wondering what happened to midnight), with no great variance in the open hours & not something to gripe that much about.

....at this point there is no flaw in my premise. You lost an hour (from 12 to 11) but got back three completely free and empty hour - just as empty, if not more so, that the 11:00 to midnight hour in the Pre E days. So it was 1/8 of the park - big deal.
Actually it wasn't "free". ;)

Riding rides until 2 am WAS DIFFERENT - and Magical. Riding your fave mountain again and again with no line WAS DIFFERENT - when you did it for THREE HOURS, as opposed to the one hour from 11 to 12 when you could have done it in the past. THAT was the case with E-night when it first began.
I agree that the idea was filled with good intentions, but so's the road to hell. ;)

That is where my E-night good time premise stops. Fast forward another year + and it is down to a 10, 9, 8, 7, 6 closing and you are truely only buying back something you had peviously and should have had for the price of regular admission.
Yup, it's a great big reality-slap in the face :(

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
Anyone in particular you had in mind, Jeff? ;)
LOL. Actually in my ripe old age of 26, I'm finding myself more & more in the good old days syndrome camp & I'm certainly not an Eisner (or Damien as we like to call him ;) ) apologist - I hope you guys already knew that. :)

Originally posted by manning
Since when do you have to pay for a perk????????
Since the quantity versus quality mindset infested the company.

Hey Landbaron, do you think Eisner is related to P.T. Barnum. He's pretty good at finding suckers.
Well, Barnum did always find new ways to surprise & shock the audience. Eisner does this too, but not in good ways. Just when you think you've seen it all & your opinion of him couldn't get any lower...*zing!*

DisneyKidds

08-05-2002, 10:12 AM

Jeff - that big D sun has been frying your brain ;). Picture this, if you will.........

The good lord Baron standing next to his "laser", ready to annihilate WDW, pinky in the corner of his mouth, with a 'mini me' mini Baron (that would be the sun baked guy from big D) right beside. You sound more like our good friend Baron every day ;) ;) ;) (is that enough winkies for you to know I am kidding?)

I appreciate your take on my comments. However, remember the premise of the discussion and my particular position. The question has to do with E-nights, which have to be looked at in relation to what was in place immediately before. So, yes,

Yes, but we can't ask why it was ok then to stay open that late & now they have to close at 6pm?

we can ask why we can't have the 80's back or why they should close at 6 pm and I wouldn't disagree - it just isn't germane to this particular discussion.

That aside I think 11 is a decent hour (though you might be wondering what happened to midnight), with no great variance in the open hours & not something to gripe that much about.

Oh my lord - will the good Baron have a conniption over this! And I disagree as well. However, for us the E-night addition mitigated any impact and gave us something different. If Disney gave us something as good as E-night INITIALLY WAS everytime they took something else away the World would be a far better place.

it wasn't "free".

Hey, and you can read things as literally as the Baron as well ;). By the winkie I assume you know what I meant. Once you shelled out your dough it was free and easy on the inside, no worries, no lines - Magical.

I agree that the idea was filled with good intentions, but so's the road to hell.

Actually, the more I re-read your post the less I think you qualify as the mini me mini Baron. I think he will throw some caps and exclamation marks your way on this one as well. In that one sentence you find yourself in my camp. It WAS a good thing, and now it sucks.

BTW - we have stayed a the Marriott Courtyard in the Disney Village numerous times. When EE existed we always were able to participate. We did do an E-night when staying there as well. From what I have heard, the ability to participate in the 'on-site' events varied with the different Disney Village hotels.

BRERALEX

08-05-2002, 10:19 AM

all i know is that with a 6pm cclosing you cant go back to hotel (and im stayin at the poy!!!!!!) when i wake up from my nap theylll be closingn

DisneyKidds

08-05-2002, 10:28 AM

Alex, I know what you mean. Breaks are a bit tougher logistically now. It is a good thing that Epcot is always open until 9 so you still have a post break nap place to go.

BRERALEX

08-05-2002, 10:39 AM

does anyone think regular hours will return to normal say 1000 maybe 1100 in the summer (when attendance rises accordingly) ?

because then enight till 1am is the real deal.

because is attenance does rise and they dont extend hours they stink!!!!!!!!!!!

DVC-Landbaron

08-05-2002, 06:11 PM

I don't feel "Screwed" paying extra for e-ticket night. IF the hours were in writing somewhere, then I could say I agree with you.Do you realize you sound like a Disney executive (Pre$$ler comes to mind) hanging his hat on a technicality? Now, just to make sure I understand you, you’re saying that if they had ‘written’ that MK hours are until midnight during summer hours, you’d be just as livid as I am about the reductions? Do I have that right? If not, ignore the rest. But if that is what you’re saying, then please read on!

“Technically” you are right. “Legally” I don’t have a leg to stand on (just ask Scoop ;) )!! And if you’re the type of person who sees issues as only black or white, with no shades of gray at all, then I probably won’t make much sense to you. But I see the issue as soooo terribly dark in the gray area that it is really hard to tell it apart from black. I base this on president, tradition and Standard Operating Procedures since the beginning of Disney theme parks.

Not only has Disneyland’s traditional summer hours been midnight, since 1955, but the MK has enjoyed the same hours since it’s inception in 1971. The only exception to the ‘rule’ was in the late ‘70’s when the MK, due to very high attendance, EXTENDED the hours until 1:00 am. (WHAT A CONCEPT!! The parks are crowded so they throw in an extra hour!! For nothing!! Just trying to keep the guests happy!! How unique!! How un-businesslike!! How Disney!!)

Now, just so you understand, you’re right. Technically, I have no backing at all. It is not in writing. In fact, the ‘writing goes against me!! The only thing in writing states that the hour of closing is 6:00pm. But I contend that 47 years at Disneyland and 31 years of traditional closing time of midnight, during the summer, constitutes a far greater bond than anything Disney may have compiled and printed on a piece of paper. Heck, in most states you’re married after 7 years, whether there’s paper on it or not!! Surely operating hours should be treated no less lightly, at least in our collective perception as a guest!! So go ahead and feel screwed!! You have every right to feel that way! You have 47 and 31 years worth of ‘rights’ to feel plenty screwed!! I am an AP holder, and try and come down 2 - 4 times a yr. so it really doesn't matter all that much if WS opens later than FW. Ahhhh! So from a personal point of view it doesn’t affect you. I understand that. But tell me, can you also understand how it may affect a great many folk whom, as Jeff pointed out, “only come once every 2-5 years”? And if you can, do you still feel that because it doesn’t affect directly, it’s OK to do? Or should we look at things as objectively as possible and judge the decisions made by Disney management, not as they affect us personally, but how they affect the image of the company and their long-term business success in general? I guess I would be more upset if Disney was the ONLY company that is cutting some things that we, as long time guests, are used too, but they are not.Man-oh-man!! I keep asking… WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH DISNEY!?!?!?

Look. If that were the thought pattern in the corporate mind of Disney way back in 1955, there’s be no Disneyland!!! There would be a quaint little amusement park in Orange County that was, for the most part, a little better that your average, run-of-the-mill, local amusement park. The place would have been kept one tiny hair above the competition, but no more than that!! Is that what you want for Disney? That they look to see where others have set the bar and match it? Or should they be the ones to set the standards for the industry and let the others figure out how (if even possible) to catch up!!??

On a personal note, bases on the way most people here think about Disney, Jeff sized it up nicely and over time I will steal the ‘uncle’ bit and claim it for myself!! ;) : Yes, but we've come to expect more from Disney. If the shady guy down the street or even your grocer that you've been going to for years pulls a fast one on you, you just shake your head & either accept it or move on. If your uncle does it (& continually does it), you can't help but feel a deep sense of disappointment & sorrow.Thanks Jeff!!Will any of these things keep me away? Nope. I know the bottom line is Disney is a business and needs to answer to the stockholders firstYES!!! YES!!! A THOUSAND TIMES YES!!!! And they can do that by not forgetting how they built up tremendous loyalty and a brand name synonymous with QUALITY!! If they take care of their primary business “EXCEEDING EXPECTATIONS” the bottom line will follow along quite happily. Unfortunately, greed takes over and the mission gets blurred. And before you know it the company is chasing after the dollar instead of chasing after the guest (who owns that dollar). But I will choose my battles and if means closing a park a few hours early as opposed to closing a park altogether,You know, I’ve said it before and I really do mean it. If Disney went away, I mean totally away, no WDW, no films, and Disneyland sold off, torn down and replaced by condos, I would indeed be sad. But there is a fate for Disney that is worse than death, for me at least. It’s that Disney will evolve into a mere shadow of their former selves and become like their competition. A mundane and ordinary amusement park. A Universal or worse a Six Flags type operation. Wouldn’t you agree? Wouldn’t that be worse that no Disney at all? Well, given the current administration, the recent and rapid cutbacks and radical changes in ideology and philosophy they are well on that path as we speak.

raidermatt

08-05-2002, 07:17 PM

Let's get back to basics...

This is really very simple. Which is better for the guests on a hot July night:

A- MK open until Midnight or 1am.
B- MK closes at 10pm, enight until 1am for $12 per person ($48 for a family of four).

If you are only arguing that B is better than B without an enight, ask yourself who has put you in the position to have to make that choice? Was choice A taken away by law, or by an act of God?

That's really the only point that some are trying to make here. Its not that in July the park should close at 10pm without any enights. Nobody is really arguing that. Its just a question of why do we believe that Choice A is no longer an option? Some are treating that cut in hours as inevitable, as a mistake on Disney's part to ever offer such hours in the first place. Others are saying the longer hours were one of the many things that gained Disney the loyal following that is has. It goes beyone subtracting labor costs and electricity, and adding in enight revenue.

Clearly enights are not striking a chord with very many guests. That's why they are not being held in slower months any longer. Disney is afraid to even promote the things for fear of angering guests! That has to tell you something.

Of course, if you truly do prefer a 10pm-1am enight over a 1am closing time, you're just going to LOVE e-afternoons and e-mornings...

Lanshark

08-05-2002, 07:18 PM

I love e-nights and we go whenever we can. That being said I remember when the park was open late and you got 2 fireworks shows a night. I don't like paying the extra 12 bucks apiece for 4 of us but with the crowds the way they are it is the only way we can experience the MK at night and enjoy the Mountains without waiting a hour in line.

Is it a ripoff? Yes But so are a lot of things a WDW if you look at it practically. I expect Disney to make decisions with their dollars and I will exercise the same right. If they discontinue e-nights I will no longer stay onsite.

Pinnie

08-05-2002, 09:19 PM

It appears that the cuts in hours are a direct result of less people coming, either from overseas or from the USA and those that do come don't stay as long and don't spend as much money in the parks as they used too.

What is different NOW than in the mid 80s and 90s when the economy was also suffering a glitch? In those times people still went to Disney to spend their dollars and Disney did better than it is doing now. In real dollars, it is just as "expensive" to go to WDW now as it was then. Disney wasn't as diversified as they are now. In the 70s only ONE park existed.

Now, people are a LOT more cautious on how their hard earned dollar is going to be spent. They are worried about jobs, they don't want to fly after 9/11. One look at their 401ks going down the tube with the rest of the economy/stock market, and they are rethinking how that $ is going to be spent. Most are opting for vacations closer to home.

What do you suggest Disney do? They have to cut costs somewhere and closing an hour or so earlier is one way to reduce expenses. Face it, they are NOT making money on the last hours that park is open, unless it is to sell popcorn and ice cream. Remember, if you are IN the park, you can stay on eticket night and shop, so they still can get that dollar from the consumer.

Yes, I would love to be altruistic and believe that WDW is entirely for the guests, but when I looked today and saw the stock at $14 and some change, you better believe stockholders are upset and without THEM and their support there will be NO WDW!!!!

I'd be willing to entertain other suggestions.....

pin
remember the magic
DVC/BCV 2002

DVC-Landbaron

08-05-2002, 09:53 PM

I'd be willing to entertain other suggestions.....
OK. Here's one!! ;)Face it, they are NOT making money on the last hours that park is open, unless it is to sell popcorn and ice cream.I totally disagree!! They ARE selling a product! They are selling memories. They are selling Pixie Dust. They are selling MAGIC!!! And we are buying it with loyalty and return trips!! WHY DID IT WORK FOR WALT AND WON”T WORK TODAY!?!?!

There’s so much fan dedication, brand loyalty and company appreciation that the current regime has been living off it for the past 18 years! Can you imagine how much more that could be if they had decided to build on that foundation and nurture that trust rather than exploit it for the easy buck?

raidermatt

08-05-2002, 09:59 PM

It appears that the cuts in hours are a direct result of less people coming, either from overseas or from the USA and those that do come don't stay as long and don't spend as much money in the parks as they used too.

Records were set at WDW in 2000. As the long-time visitors will tell you, regular Midnight and 1am closings went bye-bye long before the recent recession began.

Now, hours were FURTHER reduced post 9/11, which I was on-board with. It was probably a necessary move. Less people were coming this July than last, so it made sense that there would be a corresponding drop. However, this October's hours are scheduled to be significantly shorter than last October (over 11%), when WDW was described by many as a ghost town. This October won't be see a flood of tourists, but certainly it will be better than last year. Try as I might, I can't think of an explanation for this, other than the drag on earnings that ABC has become.

Face it, they are NOT making money on the last hours that park is open, unless it is to sell popcorn and ice cream.
You are assuming that they are not losing any guests due to shorter hours. If a guest decides to spend one less day at WDW due to the shorter hours, or worse yet, just go somewhere else on vacation, then Disney WAS making money on that customer for those last hours. It just didn't show up on the merchandise or food receipts.

But it WILL show up in the attendance, revenue and earnings numbers...

Yes, I would love to be altruistic and believe that WDW is entirely for the guests, but when I looked today and saw the stock at $14 and some change, you better believe stockholders are upset and without THEM and their support there will be NO WDW!!!!
If you want to look at it that way, then consider that hours have been on the decrease for 4-5 years. So has the stock price. Hours cuts have accelerated this year. So has the decline in the stock price.

Now, its not as simple as that, but surely we can all agree that there comes a time when cuts become detrimental to the bottom line. If you close the parks at Noon, you'd save a lot of labor costs, but nobody would buy tickets. So the key is finding the point between being open 1 hour a day and 24 hours a day that optimizes LONG TERM performance.

If you are saving 2-3 hours worth of labor today, but in the process are losing guests for next year, did you really benefit the stockholders?

WDW seems to be having more difficulty than other parks in getting its attendance levels back up. Part of that can be explained by decreased international tourism, but not all of it. SOMETHING else is wrong. I'm not willing to bet that its not cuts that have already gone too deep. (And yes, I am a stockholder. An irritated one at that...)

DVC-Landbaron

08-05-2002, 11:18 PM

Lets wander down 90's memory lane. It is the Early 90's. The MK is open until midnight in the summer - EVERY NIGHT!!! (caps and exclamation thrown in for Baron - he likes those things Thank you!!! YES!!!! I love it!!!! :bounce: :crazy: :bounce:

FAst forward to the late 90's and the advent of E-night in response to.........whatever.Ahhh! And therein lies the problem!! That little, “whatever”. You see, you can’t take that out of the equation. The “whatever” was the fires and the fear that it would keep the tourists away. An unfounded fear as it turned out. So what can we see from this type of thinking? What can we learn about their mind-set from their actions?

Well, as far as I can see, the management at the MK at the time was soooo scared about “the numbers” that, at the smallest indication that attendance might be down, that they decided to cut hours. And being profit motivated (as opposed to guest motivated) saw an opportunity to further increase “the numbers” by instituting e-ticket nights. Now, I don’t know about you, but I have a real problem with this. I don’t see, even remotely, them thinking in terms of guest benefit. I only see a scared manager slashing what didn’t need to be slashed, an opportunist practicing some ‘sharp pencil’ techniques (i.e. e-ticket nights) and the beginning of a slippery slope which led us into believing that the hours, once sacrosanct, are really arbitrary at best and capricious by design!! What do you see?
Been there, done that, doing that.....the ONLY way to do WDW. You guys don't have a corner on the market when it comes to the most effective way to do WDW.You might have been there. And you might have done that. But there is no way in the world you are doing that!!! It is not possible anymore. You cannot have that break in the middle of the day and return to the MK for any type of productivity whatsoever!!! For one reason only! Shorter hours! With a 10:00 closing there is no more mid-day break.

You see, the shorter hours brings on two sets of insurmountable problems. The first is the obvious – time. You simply run out of it. You come back in the evening and guess what!!?? The evening’s gone!!! The second problem is people. There are just too many people staying until the bitter end. Know why? Cause the ‘bitter’ end ain’t ‘bitter’ no more!! It’s just around the corner from the parade that everyone is forced to watch at the same time cause there’s only one now thank you very much Disney!!!!! And that’s only a couple minutes from the fireworks that everyone hears are worth watching and then… and then… and then… YEAH! That’s right!! There’s NOTHING after “and then”!!!! Too late!! CLOSED!!! Come back tomorrow and we’ll tease and torture you some more!!!

BTW - there were still two, count em two, parades and the fireworks. If you saw the early parade and then the fireworks you could still work your way over to your mountain of choice and ride it with no line. If you weren't staying for E-night there was still plenty of pixie dust - just an hour less to enjoy it.Ahhhh! Well, not quite. In other words, and it really should surprise anyone, I beg to differ!!!

I don’t know if you ever enjoyed an e-ticket night during the summer, but those crowds you’re talking about NOT being there during the second parade, are not only there, but with a vengeance!! It was never the last two hours that held the magic “no lines”. It was only the hour between 11 and 12. So that “pixie dust” hour you say is still there (between ten and eleven) really isn’t. The lines are still horribly long. So long in fact that for the first half-hour to 45 minutes of the ‘official’ e-ticket night is spent in one line, waiting for the day guest to get their turn. We really enjoy only a little over two hours of no lines. That first hour can be most frustrating.

So I don’t see how the people NOT staying for e-ticket night picks up much of that late night magic at all. In fact, I’d say it was a little anti-magic for some. Not only is it still pretty crowded at the 11:00 hour (ten even worse) but just watch sometime when e-ticket night first starts. You’ll always find a nice looking family heading for the turnstile of a ride only to find that the old wristband hadn’t been in place. It’s their first trip in a little over five years and the next may come five years later if they’re lucky enough to save enough. The teenage kids look pleadingly at mom and dad. Mom and dad look thoroughly defeated. And the entire family, almost on cue, slumps at the shoulders and walks away dejected. What a magical end of the day, eh?

....at this point there is no flaw in my premise. HA! That’s what you think!!! ;)

You lost an hour (from 12 to 11) but got back three completely free and empty hour - just as empty, if not more so, that the 11:00 to midnight hour in the Pre E days. OK. Simple math question. How many hours did we lose? I count one hour every day. If you’re there for a week that’s seven hours. Hmmm. We do an e-night in that time period, so add three hours, for a loss of 4 hours per week!! At an extra 84 buck for my family.

You’re right!!! How could I be so blind!! I donate to Disney an extra 84 bucks and the take away four more hours of my precious weeklong stay!! How could I have missed that benefit!! Thanks!!
And wait!! There’s more!!So it was 1/8 of the park - big deal.To me it is!!
Perhaps you did Epcot until closing, which back in the day may have been 10No. While EPCOT didn’t always close at nine, it’s been long enough to be firmly established. So tack on another hour to your next bit!
Without E-night and with a midnight closing you would have had only an hour and a halfSo that would be two and a half hours - EVERY NIGHT!!! And when I stay for three weeks, that’s an awful lot of nights!!!!!
That is where my E-night good time premise stops. Fast forward another year + and it is down to a 10, 9, 8, 7, 6 closing and you are truely only buying back something you had peviously and should have had for the price of regular admission.You are right. But that first bit had no thought of the guest in mind. It was testing the waters of the slippery slope we are rushing down today.

DisneyKidds

08-06-2002, 12:50 AM

Oh, Baron - whatever are we going to do with you.......... ;)

I'll play along a little longer - but where to start.............?

Thank you!!! YES!!!! I love it!!!!

You are most certainly welcome my friend :).

What can we learn about their mind-set from their actions?

You are right - in general it is not so easy to cavalierly dismiss the 'whatever'. However, for purposes of discussing E-night I believe we have to. Yes, it would be so much better if things were as they were in the early 90's - or better yet, those days you recall when they threw you another hour to 1 am. But that was not the reality surrounding E-night. So for me to say it was good or bad I have to look at the facts - midnight vs. 11 plus a three hour E-night - as they existed, regadless of whether it was a start down the slippery slope. Go back and read the title of your thread - it isn't 'was E-night the start down a slippery slope'.

I don’t see, even remotely, them thinking in terms of guest benefit. I only see a scared manager slashing what didn’t need to be slashed, an opportunist practicing some ‘sharp pencil’ techniques (i.e. e-ticket nights) and the beginning of a slippery slope which led us into believing that the hours, once sacrosanct, are really arbitrary at best and capricious by design!! What do you see?

Whether they were thinking in terms of guest benefit or not, they did provide some benefit - something different and exciting - for the guest, in the beginning at least. Again, the slippery slope is not what I have been discussing. I am trying not to go there because you are most likely right but I'm sure we'd end up disagreeing in a number of ways.

You might have been there. And you might have done that. But there is no way in the world you are doing that!!! It is not possible anymore. You cannot have that break in the middle of the day and return to the MK for any type of productivity whatsoever!!! For one reason only! Shorter hours! With a 10:00 closing there is no more mid-day break.

Not true my friend. Unfortunately you no longer have the flexibility of EVERY SINGLE NIGHT OF THE WEEK!!! - but it can still be done. I must qualify that for the last couple of years (since it has gotten really bad) we have been offseason visitors. You, my friend, appear to lack flexibility. I know, I know - WHY SHOULD BARON HAVE TO BE FLEXIBLE!!!??? Maybe you shouldn't have to be, but that is reality - deal with it ;). Even with the sucky hours we still find the MK open until 11 a night or two while we are there, or we do MNSSHP, or MVMCP - all that means we don't need the MK to have regular hours until 11 or 12 to make it worth going back after a break. I'm sorry you can't avail yourself of the same options. Furthermore - even a 10 close or Epcot 9 close gives us adequate post break time in the parks. Face it - when you have been as often as we have you don't need as many hours in the park. Actually, we spend more and more time away from the parks the more we go to WDW - and it is just as Magic - new and wonderful magic we have been missing for years. The Magic doesn't just hover over the parks you know. Also - with a 3 and 1 yo we don't really make any use of hours past 11 or 12 anyway. Yes, that is all personal and does nothing for the Baron clan - but we aren't suffering too much for all the sucky hours. Now that doesn't mean I happily accept them - but we go on.\

I don’t know if you ever enjoyed an e-ticket night during the summer, but those crowds you’re talking about NOT being there during the second parade, are not only there, but with a vengeance!! It was never the last two hours that held the magic “no lines”. It was only the hour between 11 and 12. So that “pixie dust” hour you say is still there (between ten and eleven) really isn’t.

No, not now - as I pointed out, it has been a couple years since we endured the pleasure and pain of the summer visit. Regardless, back when E-night first started that 10 to 11 hour was not very bad at all. Granted, not as good as the 11 to 12 - but not bad. Remember - I have been talking about the 'then' and not the 'now'. Now it sucks.

HA! That’s what you think!!! ;)

HA! That’s what you think!!! ;)

OK. Simple math question. How many hours did we lose? I count one hour every day. If you’re there for a week that’s seven hours. Hmmm. We do an e-night in that time period, so add three hours, for a loss of 4 hours per week!!

This logic only applies if you actually would have been at the MK each and every night. Everyone but the Baron clan apparently will find themselves somewhere besides the MK at least a couple of nights. So I ask - are those real hours lost or just 'paper hours'. Decrying the loss of 'paper hours' doesn't really help you make your point.

No. While EPCOT didn’t always close at nine, it’s been long enough to be firmly established. So tack on another hour to your next bit!

No. Do not forget - I am talking about the 'then' I have in no way said or implied that the points I am making apply to the 'now'. That is why I chose the 'combination' option in the poll. Things were good then - they are not so good now. If I wanted to discuss the now I'd tack on an hour - but I'm not going into that bit. You appear to want to take my arguments about the 'then' and apply them to the 'now' to show just how much the 'now' sucks. Bad taste my good Baron - and unnecessary as I agree the now sucks.

DVC-Landbaron

08-06-2002, 01:56 AM

Oh, Baron - whatever are we going to do with youInstall me as CEO of Disney. And I’ll promise to never post again!!! ;)

Yes, it would be so much better if things were as they were in the early 90's - or better yet, those days you recall when they threw you another hour to 1 am. You mean during those wonderful gas crisis and recession days (years) of the late 70’s and early 80’s? When instead of cutting, Disney “attracted” guests with longer hours and remembered that while they did indeed sell plush toys (yes even then), hot dogs, film and even cigarettes, their most important product was MAGIC. And that included selling the Magic that no cash register could register. They sold brand loyalty and repeat business that would last to the turn of the century. And Ei$ner proved that!! He’s been exploiting it ever since he took over!!
Go back and read the title of your threadI really hate to be picky, but it ain’t my thread. And besides. You should know me well enough by now. Thread titles mean very little to me!!! :crazy:

Whether they were thinking in terms of guest benefit or not, they did provide some benefit - something different and exciting - for the guest, in the beginning at leastNOT EVEN CLOSE!!!! And you know, my friend, we’re leaving out a great many people in this scenario. Not only is the so called “benefit” not used by a great many people to whom they are offered (only 5,000 remember), I would speculate that a far greater number are flatly refused!!! My good friend DisDuck isn’t even offered the opportunity to say it’s a rip-off! How is that a benefit!?!?! So they cut the hours for EVERYONE, and offered this “something different and exciting” to a select few! (Hmmm. Do I see a caste system for E-ticket nights in the making. It is something I hadn’t considered before!!)

WHY SHOULD BARON HAVE TO BE FLEXIBLEYou don’t seem to understand, I CRAVE FLEXIBILITY!!! I WANT OPTIONS!!! But they have to be MY options. It has to fit within MY flexibility. (And by that I mean everyone’s) But Disney is refusing me the pleasure of choice. They are DICTATING when and where. And then to add the old insult to injury, they are charging me for the privilege!
Even with the sucky hours we still find the MK open until 11 a night or two while we are thereOut of everything you have written, this stung the worst. I just spent a little over three weeks there. Do you have any idea how many times the MK was opened until 11:00. Once! The day EPCOT closed. And if it were not for that there would have been ZERO!!! And you go in the off season!!! Do you realize how that just boils my blood?!?!?! I go in the hot humid CROWDED days of summer and YOU get my late nights in the off season!!!! AND I GET NONE!!!!!!
This logic only applies if you actually would have been at the MK each and every night. WE ARE!!!! No matter where you are at the end of the night we ALWAYS wind up in the MK!!! Why? BECAUSE WE COULD!!! Because the studios would end their night at 10 or ten-thirty and we’d hop over to MK. Because AK hours are a joke, so it’s over to the MK. And even the Kidds clan admit to making the mad dash after illuminations!! So yeah!! Virtually EVERY night is ended in the MK. But that still doesn’t matter. What about all those guests that cannot or will not participate? Where’s their MAGIC?

No. Do not forget - I am talking about the 'then' I have in no way said or implied that the points I am making apply to the 'now'. I totally understand. Evidently you did not, so I’ll type read slow!!!

You said, while describing the mad dash from EPCOT:
“Without E-night and with a midnight closing you would have had only an hour and a half”

Now, earlier you said that EPOCT might have closed at ten. I corrected you, and seeing that you claimed only an hour and a half assumed you chose the ten o’clock closing for EPCOT. I corrected this by pointing out that EPCOT “traditionally” closes at nine. And I added an hour for it. Which is true. Illuminations at nine to nine fifteen. The race begins and by 9:30 or 9:45 at the latest you’re entering the MK. Until midnight!! Ahhhhh! The pixie dust!!! For all!! Not just the select few of the new caste system!!!

Bad taste my good Baron - and unnecessary as I agree the now sucks.Just making sure you’re staying fair. And you weren’t!!! ;)

Jeff in BigD

08-06-2002, 06:25 AM

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
Jeff - that big D sun has been frying your brain ;). Picture this, if you will.........

The good lord Baron standing next to his "laser", ready to annihilate WDW, pinky in the corner of his mouth, with a 'mini me' mini Baron (that would be the sun baked guy from big D) right beside. You sound more like our good friend Baron every day ;) ;) ;) (is that enough winkies for you to know I am kidding?)
http://www.tvdance.com/austinpowers/ducka-.gif http://www.cardfarm.com/tvdance/austinpowers2/minisway-.gif
Well, I suppose there's worse things to be ;)

Actually, the more I re-read your post the less I think you qualify as the mini me mini Baron. I think he will throw some caps and exclamation marks your way on this one as well. In that one sentence you find yourself in my camp. It WAS a good thing, and now it sucks. I find that having something in bold is much more eye catching, but I suppose it's a matter of preference.

BTW - we have stayed a the Marriott Courtyard in the Disney Village numerous times. When EE existed we always were able to participate. We did do an E-night when staying there as well. From what I have heard, the ability to participate in the 'on-site' events varied with the different Disney Village hotels.Unfortunately the Buena Vista Palace doesn't offer this option, but even if I was able to I wouldn't help perpetuate the current trend.

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
Not only has Disneyland’s traditional summer hours been midnight, since 1955, but the MK has enjoyed the same hours since it’s inception in 1971. The only exception to the ‘rule’ was in the late ‘70’s when the MK, due to very high attendance, EXTENDED the hours until 1:00 am. (WHAT A CONCEPT!! The parks are crowded so they throw in an extra hour!! For nothing!! Just trying to keep the guests happy!! How unique!! How un-businesslike!! How Disney!!)
Yeah, but Six Flags doesn't do it, so... :rolleyes:

Now, just so you understand, you’re right. Technically, I have no backing at all. It is not in writing. In fact, the ‘writing goes against me!! The only thing in writing states that the hour of closing is 6:00pm. But I contend that 47 years at Disneyland and 31 years of traditional closing time of midnight, during the summer, constitutes a far greater bond than anything Disney may have compiled and printed on a piece of paper. Heck, in most states you’re married after 7 years, whether there’s paper on it or not!! Surely operating hours should be treated no less lightly, at least in our collective perception as a guest!! So go ahead and feel screwed!! You have every right to feel that way! You have 47 and 31 years worth of ‘rights’ to feel plenty screwed!!
Not only that, but Eisner didn't even buy me dinner first. ;)
Seriously though I agree. You can spin the apple anyway you want to get a pretty view, it's still not going to change the fact that the core is rotting.

Look. If that were the thought pattern in the corporate mind of Disney way back in 1955, there’s be no Disneyland!!! There would be a quaint little amusement park in Orange County that was, for the most part, a little better that your average, run-of-the-mill, local amusement park. The place would have been kept one tiny hair above the competition, but no more than that!! Is that what you want for Disney? That they look to see where others have set the bar and match it? Or should they be the ones to set the standards for the industry and let the others figure out how (if even possible) to catch up!!??
Forget that, we'd have never even got to that point. There wouldn't have been sound in cartoons & Snow White & Seven Dwarfs wouldn't have been made.

On a personal note, bases on the way most people here think about Disney, Jeff sized it up nicely and over time I will steal the ‘uncle’ bit and claim it for myself!!
Fine by me as long as you realize I get royalties. ;)

YES!!! YES!!! A THOUSAND TIMES YES!!!! And they can do that by not forgetting how they built up tremendous loyalty and a brand name synonymous with QUALITY!! If they take care of their primary business “EXCEEDING EXPECTATIONS” the bottom line will follow along quite happily. Unfortunately, greed takes over and the mission gets blurred. And before you know it the company is chasing after the dollar instead of chasing after the guest (who owns that dollar).
I agree & here's an analogy:
Let's say you have a favorite sports player, you've followed most of his career & the guy is amazing. He's done things you didn't think were possible & is always delivering a show. When you think you've figured the guy out, he pulls another trick out that leaves your jaw on the floor. Now the player is older - would you rather that player leave in their prime & on top? Or would you rather suffer through seasons of a player who can't let go, watching painfully as his ability is mediocre at best, a mere shadow of what he once was?

If the company isn't going to strive to be the best, but rather "just good enough" why do they even bother? They might as well be making tires with that mindset.

Originally posted by raidermatt
Let's get back to basics...

This is really very simple. Which is better for the guests on a hot July night:

A- MK open until Midnight or 1am.
B- MK closes at 10pm, enight until 1am for $12 per person ($48 for a family of four).
Is this a trick question? If not I think it's a no brainer that it's A.

That's really the only point that some are trying to make here. Its not that in July the park should close at 10pm without any enights. Nobody is really arguing that. Its just a question of why do we believe that Choice A is no longer an option? Some are treating that cut in hours as inevitable, as a mistake on Disney's part to ever offer such hours in the first place. Others are saying the longer hours were one of the many things that gained Disney the loyal following that is has. It goes beyone subtracting labor costs and electricity, and adding in enight revenue.
I agree.

Clearly enights are not striking a chord with very many guests. That's why they are not being held in slower months any longer. Disney is afraid to even promote the things for fear of angering guests! That has to tell you something.
Yup. Even things that are slightly controverial like Fast Pass get all the fan fair they can muster. I think Disney knows they're the bad dog on this point & the tail is tucked between the legs.

Of course, if you truly do prefer a 10pm-1am enight over a 1am closing time, you're just going to LOVE e-afternoons and e-mornings...
No joke.

Originally posted by Lanshark
I love e-nights and we go whenever we can. That being said I remember when the park was open late and you got 2 fireworks shows a night. I don't like paying the extra 12 bucks apiece for 4 of us but with the crowds the way they are it is the only way we can experience the MK at night and enjoy the Mountains without waiting a hour in line.
I remember when you could do that without having to drop the extra bones to do so.

I'll post more later, but I need to hit the sack!

DisneyKidds

08-06-2002, 09:57 AM

Jeff (in Big D) - LOL - mini me - that is too funny, thanks for the laugh and the good sense of humor. Bravo!

Jeff (yeah you, Baron)........

Let me rub some salt in there..... Memorial Day weekend THIS YEAR - MK open untill 11 on Saturday - I think Friday, too - I can't recall just now. Sorry for that. If you were there for three weeks and just got one 11 closing due to the Epcot closure I feel for you. I know things are bad now, apparently worse than I knew. I have not even bothered to pay attention to this summers hours as we don't do the summer thing any longer.

Let me say this to you - I am a selfish SOB ;). 'I like', me, me, me, subjective measures, perceived, not created, Magic and value :eek:. OK - the freezer can open and I can be told we can't have a conversation.

NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!! And you know, my friend, we’re leaving out a great many people in this scenario. Not only is the so called “benefit” not used by a great many people to whom they are offered (only 5,000 remember), I would speculate that a far greater number are flatly refused!!! My good friend DisDuck isn’t even offered the opportunity to say it’s a rip-off! How is that a benefit!?!?! So they cut the hours for EVERYONE, and offered this “something different and exciting” to a select few! (Hmmm. Do I see a caste system for E-ticket nights in the making. It is something I hadn’t considered before!!)

Fact of the matter, they did provide some benefit for ME. At least flip me a break and admit - riding rides until 2 am is something you could rarely have done before (outside of possibly New Years or Easter). That was new, that was different, that was a good thing - even if it was in response to a bad thing. Hey, if you weren't staying on property - too bad for you. If you didn't want to part with your ten bucks - your choice, but why deprive yourself of the benefit over 10 bucks when you already invested a fortune. I KNOW, I KNOW!!!! (again - caps and ex for Baron even though Big D is right about the bold ;)) - why should it matter where you stayed, why should you have to choose to plunk down the ten bucks, why should anyone be in that position? I agree, the mere fact that those questions had to be asked was a bad thing. However, Disney provided THIS GUEST a solution that turned that bad thing to good.

I really hate to be picky, but it ain’t my thread.

Ahhh... you guys are all the same :p (says DK bracing for another blast of cold air). In all fairness, TT isn't in your car YET, but his thread was inspired by yourself ;).

You don’t seem to understand, I CRAVE FLEXIBILITY!!! I WANT OPTIONS!!! But they have to be MY options. It has to fit within MY flexibility. (And by that I mean everyone’s) But Disney is refusing me the pleasure of choice. They are DICTATING when and where. And then to add the old insult to injury, they are charging me for the privilege!

I guess some people are just better at rolling with the punches. When life gives you lemons........ I make the lemonaide, others get a sour puss :rolleyes: ;). Now before you bring out the big A word and say that Ei$ner wishes there were more of me around - I agree that we have been punched and I do my share of sparring, I do tell them I don't want to drink lemonaide. However, the knockout punch has yet to be delivered - even for yourself my friend.

WE ARE!!!! No matter where you are at the end of the night we ALWAYS wind up in the MK!!!

I submit that you are in the minority Mr. Baron. But yes, Disney should strive to keep everyone happy. However, I am still in selfish mode.

Now, earlier you said that EPOCT might have closed at ten. I corrected you,

Now Baron - are you saying that in summers past that Epcot never closed later than 9........ OK, that is why you said "traditionally" - but it didn't take a fire or a holiday to see a 9:30 or 10 close. Now perhaps it is you that has to 'read slow' as you like to say. I was talking about options and flexibility for E-nights and the ability to do them after another park closed. E-night didn't have to just be an extension of your day in the MK, it could provide you with a complete change of Magic scenery after you got the full Magic treatment elsewhere - and that was different, and cool. I was pointing out that you could do a heck of a lot more at the MK after Epcot with E-night than without. That holds true whether it was a 9, 9:30, or 10 close at Epcot. What I was trying to point out remains the same whether you had 1.5 or 2.5 hours in the MK without E-night, and that is you can't do the whole park anyway - so what does it matter that the whole park isn't open for E-night. From a practical standpoint it doesn't make a lick of difference. If you only care to point out what wasn't available to you as opposed to enjoying more than you could enjoy in three hours that is your choice. Do I need to go back and type that slower? :crazy: I don't throw around things like EVERY NIGHT!!! - sorry if it seemed implied. But for the point I was making (the one in bold) it doesn't really matter.

Just making sure you’re staying fair. And you weren’t!!!

But I was.... you just failed to take the main point away from ramblings on that one. Perhaps it was my lack of clarity, or perhaps it wasn't a point you wanted to see. You tell me :smooth:.

Looks like that job opening might be there soon. I'll look for further threads from you regarding the many caste systems at WDW ;).

raidermatt

08-06-2002, 11:56 AM

You, my friend, appear to lack flexibility. I know, I know - WHY SHOULD BARON HAVE TO BE FLEXIBLE!!!??? Maybe you shouldn't have to be, but that is reality - deal with it
I know this wasn't meant personally, but looking at this from a "what's good for business point of view" remember that Summer is the busiest prolonged period of the year. Why? Because that's when WDW's bread and butter, families with children, are able to take vacations.

Generally speaking, its wise to keep your best and most plentiful customers happy.

Enights were a bad idea from the get-go, and its only gotten worse. Disney knew it better than anyone, that's why they never told anyone about enights. They would RATHER CANCEL THEM THAN PROMOTE THEM!

DisneyKidds

08-06-2002, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by raidermatt

I know this wasn't meant personally, but looking at this from a "what's good for business point of view" remember that Summer is the busiest prolonged period of the year. Why? Because that's when WDW's bread and butter, families with children, are able to take vacations.

Generally speaking, its wise to keep your best and most plentiful customers happy.

Enights were a bad idea from the get-go, and its only gotten worse. Disney knew it better than anyone, that's why they never told anyone about enights. They would RATHER CANCEL THEM THAN PROMOTE THEM!

You are right Matt - nothing personal against our good friend Baron. He and I have to go round on something though, and you know I think he is somewhat stuck in the past ;).

That being said - do all the discussions have to evolve into what is good from the business point of view? I agree with you about summers and keeping the bread and butter happy. I happen to agree with you that E-nights represent something that is not good for the business at this point. However, that doesn't change to fact that when they first started they were more than a replacement for something that we should have had in the first place - and that was the question at hand. I believe it gave us something different and was a good thing at first. It has evolved into something else, yes - but from a get out and experience the MK point of view I don't believe it was a bad thing at all - then. From a business perspective was it a bad thing and a start down the slippery slope? Well, that would be another thread - or at least a completely different aspect of this thread than I have been discussing :). Silly me to focus on the actual question posed in the thread :crazy:.

BTW - I'm not sure I buy your E-night conspiracy theory that Disney knows they were bad from the get-go and they are trying to hide it from the public. Do you have something more than speculation on that one?

airlarry!

08-06-2002, 01:40 PM

As I am wont to do, I agree with Matt on this one. If Disney were making a killing, and it wasn't teeing off the average guest, they would have promoted the heck out of E*nights. Heck, I can remember some times barely even seeing info about it, except a little ad card on the resort desk...

That is a good question that no one has answered. What was Disney's rationale for starting E*nights?

I wonder if there isn't a poster here who may have filled up a few water glasses when those discussions were happening...clue us in....

DisneyKidds

08-06-2002, 02:04 PM

A first for me. I will attempt to argue two entirely different concepts regarding the same subject in the same thread. God help me keep my thoughts straight ;). Baron and Matt want to discuss the 'good for business' aspect of E-nights while I have been dsicussing the 'good for me experiencing the MK' aspect of E-night. I really don't want to mix the two ideas - a sure recipe for disaster :p. For those who care to play - please respond to one of my posts at a time, lest my head will explode :earseek:.

So, are E-nights good for business? Were they ever good for business? Were they a start down the slippery slope to the ruin of the MK? Where to begin................

I think that if E-nights gave the same thing as they did when they first started they could have been a very good thing for business. As such - I think they were actually good thing for business at one point.

Here is what I mean. Initially, E-nights gave us something different - the point I have been making in my posts on the other argument. Being in the MK riding rides until 2 am was different. People bought into the idea and were willing to pay for E-nights with the full knowledge that a regular hour was being taken away. Why? Because you got something unique and different. The ability to ride your favorite rides (granted, maybe they weren't all of everyones faves) again and again and again for three hours, with no lines whatsoever. The ability to be in the MK at 2 am (later by the time you got out) which was cool - and something you could rarely do before. Most people were happy to do it and saw E-nights as a good benefit.

News flash - providing something new, unique, different and cutting edge that provides your customer something they never really had before is ALWAYS good for business. The incremental cost of keeping the staff there and the E-night attractions open was minimal. 5,000 tix at 10 bucks a pop turned a profit. In most customers it created goodwill and added to the Magic. In some customers it served to make up for the elimination of an hour they should have had. But that created goodwill also - because most saw it as getting more than they lost. Again - all good for business.

Sure, some will say Disneys initial motivation was always to screw the customer. Not sure I buy that. Even with questionable motives, the actual E-night event could be good for business. Of course, you would be correct in pointing out that the questionable motives were not good for business - but we'll talk slippery slope in a few moments.

If only it could have stayed the way it was (oh, great, now I sound like the Baron ;)). So what happened? I don't exactly know. Was it greed? Was it assuming the customer would view E-nights as the same positive as the MK hours eroded and E-nights found you there only as late as most used to be there without E-night, giving you nothing unique and different? Bottom line is - at some point E-nights failed to provide something new, unique, and different. You had people paying for E-night and leaving the MK earlier than they used to without. People were forced to pay extra to get something that was not unique or different. It could then be viewed as a negative - a high cost replacement for the usual late hours we used to have. Add in the greed factor when Disney realized they could see twice as many tickets and triple the profits and it all went to heck.

That is what we have now and it is bad business. People aren't happy to plunk down their 12 bucks. They do it begrudgingly in the hopes that they can make the best of a bad situation. That is ALWAYS bad business.

So how did we get from point A to point B? I guess that would be the slippery slope. How slippery? I don't really know. If Disney never thought about the guest in the first place in regards to E-night I guess it was a very slippery slope. If it was viewed as a screw the people and make a profit venture it would be very easy to say lets take more profit. If Disney truely thought about the guest when implementing E-night the slope may not have been so steep. However, once Disney lost their sense of values on the subject things started rolling down that hill.

So, are E-nights really bad for business - would WDW have been better off without E-nights? All in all, I think no, the company would not have been better off without them. Face it, the hours today would be the hours today even if E-night never existed. People would feel the same animosity towards Disney either way. E-nights have kept some people happy, provide first time guests who don't have a clue about midnight closings something they never would have had, and have provided a revenue stream that is better than nothing. So, slippery slope and all, WDW is better off with the [B]E-night event[/B} than without. However, that doesn't erase the fact that Disney has made many bad for business decisions along the way.

raidermatt

08-06-2002, 02:15 PM

That being said - do all the discussions have to evolve into what is good from the business point of view?
No they don't. But its pretty clear that enights are (and were) bad from the guest point of view. Sometimes what might be best for the guests just isn't feasible. For instance, I'm sure if the parks were kept open until 3am, there would be some guests that would be thrilled. But its probably not adviseable from the business point of view.

I'm just pointing out that enights are definitely bad for the guest, and are probably bad for the bottom line as well, IF you focus on the long term.

However, that doesn't change to fact that when they first started they were more than a replacement for something that we should have had in the first place - and that was the question at hand.
No, they weren't. Closing times were cut back, therefore, something was taken away. Its just that the amount of time taken away has increased over time.

BTW - I'm not sure I buy your E-night conspiracy theory that Disney knows they were bad from the get-go and they are trying to hide it from the public. Do you have something more than speculation on that one?
I don't have any inside info, and this isn't the type of thing we'd ever expect Disney to admit. However, it is the most likely explanation, given these two very relevant facts:

1- Unlike Early Entry, Enights are very difficult to find in Disney promotional material. A big complaint about the cancellation of EE was that it was still mentioned in the planning video, and still listed on the official Disney website as a benefit.

Go to Disney.com and check the daily activities schedule for MK. You'll find parades and fireworks, but no mention of Engihts. Is it in the FAQ? No. Look at the benefits of staying on-site. Does it list the right to purchase an Enight ticket? No.

Are they mentioned in teh vacation planning video? No.

Why not? If its good for the guests, and brings in revenue, why not promote them more? At least as much as EE... Because they don't want the publicity. Why not? Well, it could be that they have a limited number of tickets and don't want to disappoint too many guests. But that leads us to fact #2...

2. They cancelled Enights in May, and apparently are going to use them sparingly in the off-season. Again, they would rather cancel than promote. So over-crowding is not the reason. Any other suggestions?

raidermatt

08-06-2002, 02:32 PM

Sure, some will say Disneys initial motivation was always to screw the customer.
No, it was to try to extract more money out of the customer TODAY without giving proper and accurate consideration to the consequences TOMORROW.

People bought into the idea and were willing to pay for E-nights with the full knowledge that a regular hour was being taken away. Why? Because you got something unique and different.
If the motivation was to provide something new and different, why take the hour away? Why not just tack on the enight to the then current closing times?

Most people were happy to do it and saw E-nights as a good benefit.

The numbers just don't add up on this one. Average MK attendance is (or at least was) something like 40,000 per day. I don't see how a case can be made that most of these guests were happy to have the hour cut from closing time, when fewer than 5,000 attend Engihts. (if there were no lines, enight attendance was even lower).

Face it, the hours today would be the hours today even if E-night never existed.
Sadly, I agree.

E-nights have kept some people happy, provide first time guests who don't have a clue about midnight closings something they never would have had, and have provided a revenue stream that is better than nothing.
Enights have also made some people MORE UNhappy. And why were they cancelled in May, rather than promoted? If it makes more people happy than angry, PROMOTE THEM!

DisneyKidds

08-06-2002, 02:38 PM

No, they weren't. Closing times were cut back, therefore, something was taken away. Its just that the amount of time taken away has increased over time.

Agreed, something was definitely taken away. I never said that wasn't the case. However, what was sold back was more than what was taken away. At first, you bought back the ability to be riding SM at 2 am and liesurely strolling toward the exit at 2:30. You could not have done that before (except for New Years and Easter). So you absolutely can not say that at first E-nights were no more than a replacement. To say that, Disney would have immediately had to have closed the MK at 9 and sold an E-night until 12 - only then would E-night represent a replacement. That simply was not the case. So when they first started I do not agree that the E-night event was bad for the guest who chose to participate. Whether the decisions behind it were bad for the guest is another question.

DisneyKidds

08-06-2002, 03:00 PM

See, I'm getting dizzy already :crazy:.

If the motivation was to provide something new and different, why take the hour away? Why not just tack on the enight to the then current closing times?

It may be a chicken or the egg question. I believe Baron, or someone, stated that Disney made a decision that they had to cut hours in response to fires, or whatever - the threat of reduced tourism in the area. Bottom line is the impetus seems to have been a decision to cut hours by one. If that was the case perhaps Disney said - 'ok, folks - we have to cut the hours to save money, but what can we do to try and still recognize the savings and provide the guests something that they will enjoy and will help to lessen the pain of this cut?' That would be far different from the other scenario where the first decision was to institute an E-night event and Disney said - 'you know what, if we do this E-night thing, not only can we squeeze some more money out of some of the guests, but I bet we can save even more by closing the park an hour early - people won't know the difference'. So which came first, the decision to cut hours or the decision to have E-nights. I think it makes a difference.

The numbers just don't add up on this one. Average MK attendance is (or at least was) something like 40,000 per day. I don't see how a case can be made that most of these guests were happy to have the hour cut from closing time, when fewer than 5,000 attend Engihts.

You are right - I should have said that most people who participated in E-night were happy to do it. E-night was generally a good thing for the guests who decided to take advantage. It is unfortunate that that decision became necessary, but if someone didn't participate it was likely their choice. If everyone was so discontent over the loss of the hour how come more people didn't do it? So perhaps the people who wanted to be there were there (minus 10 bucks) and the rest didn't really care that much. I'd be interested to know how often the event really sold out.

As for the whole promotion thing I really don't know what is going on. Initially demand may have been greater than the number of tickets available so they increased the number. That would explain the increase in E-night crowds. At that point perhaps they realized that they could only sell so many tickets, thus the lack of hard sell. How to explain the cancellations? Perhaps Disney wasn't actually turning much profit on the events so they were an easy target to cut some expenses. Were E-nights cancelled due to lack of participation or as a cost cutting move? That might provide the answer.

raidermatt

08-06-2002, 03:12 PM

However, what was sold back was more than what was taken away.

Math 101...

Let's be generous and say Enight opens 1/4 of the park. Therefore, an enight hour = 1/4 of a regular hour.

Hmmmm.

1 regular hour at no extra cost, or the equivalent of 3/4 of an hour for $10 (now $12).

I know, I know, short lines during enight.... but lines were short anyway during the last hour, espcecially when that last hour was from 11-12 or from 12-1.

Of course, guest response is not always as simple as doing the math, so maybe we should do a poll:

Which is more valuable, an hour of extra closing time, or a 3-hour enight for $12...

Do you really think a majority would pick the enight?

raidermatt

08-06-2002, 03:22 PM

If that was the case perhaps Disney said - 'ok, folks - we have to cut the hours to save money, but what can we do to try and still recognize the savings and provide the guests something that they will enjoy and will help to lessen the pain of this cut?'
It was the threat of attendance dropping due to the wildfires.

I could buy this under only one of two scenarios:

1- When the threat was no longer there, did they return to the previous situation. (answer=no)

2- Did they find out that MORE guests actually liked enights over the extra hour of closing time. (answer=I highly doubt it but of course can't prove it)

Since I ain't buyin' either 1 or 2, I can't buy that your original scenario was reality. If it was, it lasted all of about 10 minutes, which is the same thing as not at all.

I should have said that most people who participated in E-night were happy to do it.
That's the same as saying most people who are going to WDW today are happy to do it, so that's a good thing.

Well, I'm sure its true that most people who are there are happy. But that doesn't account for those who didn't go (and are the reason attendance is not recovering). Similar thing with enights. Of course if you ask those who use it if they enjoyed it most will say yes. That's why they bought the $10 ticket. But those who didn't buy the ticket are not factored into the equation, and they are by far the larger group.

DisneyKidds

08-06-2002, 03:29 PM

1 regular hour at no extra cost, or the equivalent of 3/4 of an hour for $10 (now $12).

Must be the new math, because it just doesn't make sense. You assumption must be that you can do everything in that one hour, therefore you can do less in the 3/4 of an hour of E-night because not everything is available to you. That is absurd. You are equating one hour at closing to three hours of E-night and saying they are comparable, that in fact the three hours of e-night provides you less opportunity. How? Look at it like this.......

What is someone going to do in that hour from 11 to 12 (pre E-night). As some have said, you might ride your favorite mountain three times in a row, and maybe even do another. You aren't going to do all those things that aren't available on E-nights. Ok, maybe someone would like to do the Hall of Presidents during that hour - but I doubt many.

Fact of the matter is if you participate in E-night you could do those three trips on your fave mountain and maybe even another - AND STILL HAVE TWO HOURS LEFT TO DO THE OTHER THINGS THAT ARE OPEN!!!.

So the math that 3 hours x 1/4 of the park = 3/4 of an hour which is < 1 regular hours is..... well, it is just plain silly.

Yes, E-night does nothing for those left out in the cold. I wonder how many were forced out in the cold and how many were out in the cold by choice.

DisneyKidds

08-06-2002, 03:36 PM

But those who didn't buy the ticket are not factored into the equation,

But it was likely the choice they made. That would be adults making those decisions, adults who should be able to live with their decision. An unfortunate decision to have to make, but theirs nonetheless. Now, if E-night was sold out that is a different story.

When the threat was no longer there, did they return to the previous situation. (answer=no)

Once they had that taste from the well....:(. Even if attendance went back up, or the threat was never realized, it may have been to difficult for them to give it back after they saw what they were saving by eliminating that hour. Very unfortunate indeed. As someone said - the road to hell is paved with good intentions. But the good intentions may have been there.

raidermatt

08-06-2002, 04:16 PM

But it was likely the choice they made. That would be adults making those decisions, adults who should be able to live with their decision. An unfortunate decision to have to make, but theirs nonetheless.
I'm not following you on this one. My point was that even if 5000 people attended an enight, and most are happy with the deal, there are 35,000 people who did not attend. If some of them are not happy about the situation, that should be pretty important to Disney, since they might not come back, or might reduce their next visit.

You assumption must be that you can do everything in that one hour, therefore you can do less in the 3/4 of an hour of E-night because not everything is available to you. That is absurd.
Its also quite absurd to tell me that the value of my hour has increased because fewer rides are open. But then again, that thinking goes a long way toward explaining the lower numbers of attractions at AK, and even moreso DCA.

But the good intentions may have been there.
I guess I can go along with this, though I'd put the chances as slim or none, with slim in its car approaching the city limit sign...

DisneyKidds

08-06-2002, 04:33 PM

I'm not following you on this one. My point was that even if 5000 people attended an enight, and most are happy with the deal, there are 35,000 people who did not attend. If some of them are not happy about the situation, that should be pretty important to Disney, since they might not come back, or might reduce their next visit.

I guess I am trying to say that it is possible that a lot of those 35,000 didn't find it that important to be there. They chose not to go so perhaps that hour isn't quite as important to everyone. Case in point - if the MK were open until midnight the Kidd clan would not be there at midnight. With two small children it is not something we'd do. You are an experienced WDW guy. Ever find yourself on Main St. after the first parade lets out? Quite an exodus. How about the fireworks that follow? Another mass exodus. The late parade? Ditto. Of those 40,000 guests for the day, how many do you really think intend to stay after the 11:00 parade? I submit the number is probably not even five figures. There is a reason you could do so much between 11 and 12 - the majority of the people cleared out at 11. Going one step further, most of those who would have stayed until 12 but didn't, left by choice. Chances are they could have bought an E-night ticket but it wasn't that important to them. So how many really unhappy people were there in the early days of E-nights? Probably not that many, especially if they took advantage of the E-night option. Of couse a 10, 9, 8, 7, 6 o'clock close changes al that - but in the beginning..........

Make any more sense?

Its also quite absurd to tell me that the value of my hour has increased because fewer rides are open.

And I'm not with you here. I guess you are saying you would rather have 45 rides open for one hour as opposed to 15 rides open for three hours. That is your perogative. However, the 45 rides for an hour was not an option anymore. They took it away :(. But getting the 15 back for 3 hours was a pretty good compromise in my book, even though I was out 10 bucks. And a question - of the 45 rides you had for the hour, how many could you actually do in that hour (maybe 4)? And I bet a couple of those would have been available at E-night.

You asked an interesting question earlier. If I had a choice today between the MK hours back at midnight, or the MK hours to 11 with a three hour E-night..... I guess if I were without kids I'd take (BOTH!!! - shoo, get out of here Baron) ..... that is really a tough question.