October hours at MK

[raidermatt]

Awhile back, I defended Disney's reduction in hours when compared to last year, because they were in line with the reported attendance drop. (Note- I did not and am not defending them for the reductions since 1998).

Well, October hours just came out. MK is open from 9-6 everyday except Saturday's, which are 9-9. That's 291 hours.

I looked up Oct. 2001 on laughingplace, and came up with 327.5 hours, or an 11.1% reduction.

This seemed out of line, so I checked the Dis's estimate for Oct 2002, which is based on last year's hours. Dis estimated 330 hours, which makes this year an 11.8% reduction.

Disney may not expect great attendance in October, but surely they expect better attendance than last October?

Why am I posting this? Partly because hours are news, but mostly to say I am formally withdrawing my support of Disney's reduction in hours from 2001 levels. (I know, stop the presses!) Some said that even though attendance maybe down, the hours reductions had nothing to do with that. I wanted proof, and it looks like I got it.

The only caveat I'll throw into this is if neither laughingplace nor the Dis reflect what October's hours ended up actually being last year, rather than what was originally posted. I tend to think this is not the case because I saw laughingplace update changed hours when we were on our trip in May.

[manning]

From some other post, the impression is that crowds are up this summers but not the hours. I guess there is some complaining about it.

[toefungus]

The park hours were actually great when I went at the end of June. Everynight MK was open 9am-11pm and one night it was open from 9am-12am with TWO Spectromagics. Disney-MGM STudios was open until 10:00 with TWO fantasmics. Epcot was the same as always. Those are what the hours should be! Crowds were heavy but we could still get everything done because we had two showings of Fantasmic/Spectro and the parks were open later. I don't know what happend to the hours but they went down the toilet after the 4th. :( :mad:

[BRERALEX]

and i like to repeat a little tidbit i read on another post. Admission prices didnt go up this year but with so many reduced hours its kinda like they did

[All Aboard]

Finally! A post 9/11 year to year comparison. Matt, even if the 2001 hours you are comparing to are not final, the actual hours are far more likely to be greater and not fewer. You are likely comparing to the final posted hours for last October, I doubt the real ones were any shorter.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't virtually the entire month of October "regular season?" One in which WDW charges higher than value rates at the resorts? Yet, 6pm MK closures is as early as it gets, as early as the earliest value season closures.

[toefungus]

Yes it does affect the guests experience at the parks. How would you like to try and see a Spectromagic that's 6 and 7 rows of people deep because there's only one showing? Or having to get seats two hours early for Fantasmic because there is only one showing? It's not just the hours that make a differnece, but when they shorten the hours they also cut 2nd performances of shows and parades. Then you're losing even more time for attractions, shopping, ect......

[mrtoadslastride]

Originally posted by thedscoop
Obviously, these answers could quickly and reactionarily (word?) devolve into various forms of "it's just more proof"...but really what does it mean?

It means that the parks are open less than they were before.

[QUOTE]But, that same thing has happened to my local Borders. Or the local library for that matter.

You don't have to pay $50 to enter your local Borders do you?

Is there any proof that guests actually get to ride fewer rides because there are shorter hours? I ask this question because I think there are more pieces of information which are needed other than just the blanket fact that the parks have shorter hours.

Are you serious? I respect you and your positions ( I also really appreciate all the rumors you have been posting lately), but I can't believe that you would question that shorter hours = fewer rides!!!

How does that effect the overall quality of a visit to WDW? I'm really not trying to be argumentative or parse words, I just think that the idea of longer hours being automatically good and shorter hours automatically hurting guest experience misses too many factors.

By closing at 6 Disney has eliminated the best part of the day to visit the parks (in the evening when it is cool, and less crowded).

What if MK was still open to midnight each night but was operating with 50% less staffing?

What if Epcot was open 2 more hours but did so with fewer eating or ride options?

Even if there were fewer things to do at least I would be able to sit on a park bench and enjoy the park atmosphere. Besides since when do I have to chose. Disney has always been about providing the best guest experience possible. Pushing me out of the park at 6 with every other guest doesn't cut it (talk about reducing guest experience, how does waiting for an hour for a bus because everyone leaves MK at the same time hit you), and neither does opening with 50% staff or fewer rides. I understand that WDW can't afford to keep the parks open to 12 365 days a year, but closing at 6 during what has become a pretty busy month is pathetic.

I totally understand the point that more hours=more time in the park. But, I think its the "quality" of the time which has to be examined as well as the length of the time.

I expect Disney to provide both quantity and quality. A WDW vacation is very expensive and even for an admitted Disneyophile these hours make me question the wisdom of a trip to Disney.

[raidermatt]

Scoop, there's a lot of truth in what you are saying. And of course, I can't answer all of your questions.

One thing I can say is that I don't think anyone familiar with the situation really blamed 9/11 for the whole problem. The ultimate bottom line is the drop in tourism. The drop in tourism was largely a result of a poor economy, but it was also a result of fear of flying, and that was due to 9/11. It is a fact that attendance plummeted immediately after 9/11, changing from a slow decrese to a near freefall. Therefore, 9/11 is an appropriate date to use as a benchmark.

I think I would be safe in saying that the staffing hours will not go UP along with the reduced hours. In other words, if there were 300 CMs in a given park at a given time, I'm pretty sure there won't be 301 now.

I also doubt we will see fewer attractions going down for rehab, unless of course the maintenance budget has been slashed. But that would be a long term negative for the guest experience.

Borders does not charge admission. If they close before I get there, they don't get my money. The library doesn't charge admission either, and surely we can't compare a govt operated facility with WDW? Yes, its paid for through taxes, and if my taxes aren't decreased yet hours are cut, I deserve an explanation as to why.

You're right in that there are other factors besides hours that go into the guest experience. But what evidence is there that any of these other areas are getting bumped up to compensate for the shorter hours?

I'm not saying October 2002 hours necessarily had to be lengthened over 2001. But an 11+% decrease? Maybe we'll hear otherwise in the earnings call, but nothing we have been told so far even comes close to indicating that kind of decrease from post 9/11 is needed. Every time Disney has given us attendance comparisons to last year, the decrease has shrunk, and surely the expected attendance for this October is not 11% less than last October.

I have to believe that if the guest experience was being enhanced in other ways, Disney would be anxious to tell us, so as to offset the complaints about hours. (Remember CC for EE?)

Of course, I'll happily eat my words if I'm wrong...

[barreloflaughs]

But, that same thing has happened to my local Borders. Or the local library for that matter.

Well, the Borders may close early today but I can make arrangements to visit it tomorrow or next week on my way home from work. Same with the library...hell I drive by it every day! Not a big deal.

But WDW is another story all together!!! It is 1000 miles away. I would much prefer it be open as late as possible for me and all of the other good folks who travel great distances to be there.

I could understand it if the WDW parks were losing money but all of the evidence I've read here seems to indicate that quite the opposite is true....the parks profits are being used to prop up the rest of the company.


carl
barrel of laughs

[raidermatt]

Is there any proof that guests actually get to ride fewer rides because there are shorter hours?

I glossed over this concept the first time, but think it should be addressed.

When cutting from 16 hours to 14, you've probably got a point, at least about the rides. But when cutting from 10 or 11 to 9, the answer has to be yes, at least for a significant certain number of guests. That doesn't mean you can't get everything done if you arrive at 9am. But there is a reason the parks aren't crowded until 11am or Noon. That's when most people WANT to get there. When you take away hours on the backend, you force them to either go earlier than they want to, or you cut into the time they want to spend in the park. Either is a negative to the guest experience.

But even so, we have to remember that WDW isn't just about rides. Many of its guests love it because of the way Main Street looks at night, and all of the nightime shows. When you close at 6pm, there isn't a whole lot of night time to go around. Decreases in the number of nightime shows also detracts.

I'm all for matching hours to attendance in an attempt to keep the guest experience consistent without bleeding money. That's why a the decrease in July for example, did not bother me too much, because attendance was also reported to be down by a similar number. Makes sense.

October does not make sense, at least from a guest point of view.

[Bob O]

For me less hours would more than likely mean less rides. As i get to the park when it opens and leave at closing time the less the park is open means leans times i would be able to go n any attractions, escpecially less re-rides of the favorites. And from my experinece the park isnt as busy at closing time the later the park is open which gives you the ability to ride more rides in the beginning and end of the day than the middle. And if you have families that like to take a break mid-day to go swimming or rest that may not be possbile with the reduced hours if they want to see all the attractions.
I have also found the best quality time in the parks to be in the beginning and end of the day when you can get the most done with smaller crowds to deal with, but reduced hours means those times would be less magical for me and my family.
The bottom line is the hours of the parks are being reduced with no equal reduction in the price of admission to the parks so to me wdw is trying to maximize their profits at the expense of their guests. And a 10%-11% drop is a big drop from last years level, and thats not comparing the hours to what they may have been 10 or 15 or 20 yrs ago. This is part of the slippery slope in reductions.
If this doesnt upset people will another 10% reduction next year be finally going too far?? I guess we have to decide when is the reduction in hours too much. Will closing the parks at 500pm or 400 pm finally be the breaking piont for some people as apparently 600pm isnt??

[All Aboard]

In all our discussions about AK being whatever fraction of a day's park. The full-day defenders always positioned their argument with "time spent smelling the flowers." Well, this is something I really enjoy doing at MK. Often, it's not about how many attractions I can see in x amount of time. (With EE gone, I better make that change or be disappointed.) I actually like to spend a portion of my day strolling around or just sitting in a nice spot and soaking in the MK atmosphere. Hours reductions most definitely reduce my ability to do that.

Scoop, I'm not sure I understand your position. The MK hours have been reduced by 11% from last October. I don't think anyone was calling for an increase, but certainly would like to have seen the bleeding stop. WDW raises the resort prices in Oct v. the Sep price, yet the hours are just as tight. That doesn't make sense to me. I don't recall October hours ever being this short. It has been considered the "regular" month in the Fall for some time.

[All Aboard]

OK, "Great Big Spreadsheet of Everything" time!

I just found my file of all the 2000 posted hours. In Oct of 2000, MK closed at 7pm Sun-Thu, 9pm each Fri and 11pm the first 2 Saturdays and 10pm the last 2 Saturdays.

That's a total of 332 hours, plus another 19.5 if you include EE.

[hopemax]

Hi guys :)

So scoop wants to know...

Seriously. What does it mean that Disney has not raised hours during October or whenever...

How does that effect the overall quality of a visit to WDW?

http://www.orlando-rental-villas.com/weather_data.htm

Average number of days above 80

Jan: 7
July: 31
Sept: 29
Oct: 25

Up here in Seattle we make it above 80 about 5 times per year, so the thought of shorter hours makes me worry about my health. Orlando is hot and humid, and what makes a vacation bearable is the ability to tour the parks prior to noon or after 6PM. Shorter lines is only the added bonus, the reason I'm up early and stay up late is to avoid the sun.

I know what being in that environment does to me. I get dehydrated, I get sunburned, I get cranky. I have less tolerance for crowded spaces, and slow moving lines. I snap at people when I wouldn't normally.

I'm affecting the experiences of my family, other guests, even the CM's that have to interact with me; really no different than that kid who's been out in the sun too long. We've all seen guests blowing up at a CM and I always wonder if that person is just like that, or if it is just the result of being in an unfamiliar climate too long. Grocery Stores worry about their check-out lines getting too long, other business worry about the "on hold" phone time. I think theme parks need to be conscious of climate effects.

I don't want to have to make a choice where I either "listen to my body." Which means, most of the vacation will be spent at the hotel, in which case I might as well go to the real Polynesia, or the real Caribbean. Or ignore what will happen and push along to the parks anyway.

Personally, I think an enforced naptime between 1:00-4:00 would do wonders for the park experience. Kids and adult both will get the rest they need, less tantrums, more patience, less yelling at CM's. CM's in turn would feel better about their jobs (less "problem" guests), which could lead to less turnover, which means less training costs. But in lieu of that, give me longer hours so I can make the decision myself.

So what do shorter hours mean: More guests who feel like they have to stay in the parks during the mid-day. More tired and cranky kids, more tired & cranky adults (dealing with tired and cranky kids, and their own bodies rebeling), which means more tired and cranky CM's (dealing with cranky guests). Lower job satisfaction, more turnover, more inexperienced CM's, and it goes on.

Now, how do I plug this theory into a spreadsheet?

[Walt's Frozen Head]

Folks, I'm just looking for quantifiable ways in which shorter park hours affect the guest experience negatively. To my way of thinking, you really haven't expressed adequate appreciation for the difference between paying for a day's admission and paying for a certain number of experiences, mentioned in the responses you've already gotten.

It would be a lot more difficult to complain about hours being cut if admission media still consisted of ride tickets: you paid for a certain number of rides, and you will either get them or still have the coupons to get them at some later date. But now admission media are good for "a day in the park(s)," and that day is now quantifiably less than it was before... and because this was a unilateral decision and many "park days" are paid for long before they are used, those days are quantifiably less than what a lot of people thought they were paying for, in the first place.

We did an awful lot of math in a thread last year when the big hours and EE cuts came through. Everyone's vacations are different, but my very own personal math ending up indicating that the real hours I could actually spend in a park in a day decreased around 20%, very significant. That takes into consideration the non-negotiable requirements that we take a mid-day break, eat two meals between 9am and 9pm, and that we avoid counter service for those meals (there's a two-year-old and an 85-year-old with a wheelchair and oxygen tanks to drag around... we are not a fast-moving bunch, and need some settle space/time at meals).

And that doesn't consider that, in the 80% of the day Disney has left me with, the parks themselves are more crowded than they otherwise would have been, making every line take longer, making parades and shows more crowded (which in turn makes saving your decent spot take longer), and just generally pressing you that much closer to moist Waconians, a fate I understand holds horrors even for Volunteer barristers.

I also appreciate non-park Disney offerings (the Fairways course at Fantasia Gardens is the most unique and enjoyable miniature golf I've ever played), but I'd really like to see you take more note of the fact that what Disney has taken away in hours is something that, to a certain way of thinking, has already been paid for, whereas the options you mention are generally additionally priced diversions.

If a Mexican restaurant stops giving you free chips and salsa with your meal, their pointing out that you are allowed to purchase a plate of nachos is unlikely to be considered a trade-off of equivalent value. And even if the free chips weren't the only reason you went to that restaurant, I can't think of any situation where that news would come as a pleasant surprise to the customer.

If it seems like I'm making an assumption that "less hours=less value," I think that's because I realize that the math I did applies only to me, and am therefore hesitant to plaster it on the board as having any wide-spread application, leaving readers without all the information I used to make the decision.

For my family, there is no doubt that less hours=less value; this conclusion is based on trips made before and after the cuts, no need to assume anything. I don't think we're too many standard deviations away from the norm, so I've extrapolated that it is likely that some percentage of other guests would come to the same conclusion.

I'm currently trying to think of a time at Disney when I've actually noticed "boy, this experience really suffers because of the lack of CMs stationed here." If all these CM hours are in areas where there had been previous maintenance cutbacks, that would be a positive; but even then, I'm not sure the warm fuzzy feeling of knowing that CoP is being well-cared for in order to keep spinning long into the future overrides the fact that the damn thing isn't going to be open while we're actually in the park.

-WFH

[rasvar]

I'm taking any hour postings with a grain of salt, lately. These seem to be just a general shot. It seems like they are truely running on two week ahead scheduling. They really seem to be adjustiing each and every day on the schedule based on hotel occupancies levels reported by all of the Orlando area hotels based on reservations.

[raidermatt]

Here's the situation which I particuarily had in mind: Hours have been reduced but staffing is back to pre 9/11 levels. In fact, with the new contract, WDW is hiring as we type.

In this case, does staffing = FTE or headcount? The only way this is a plus is if the hours worked by CMs in the parks decreases by a smaller percentage than the park hours. I find it hard to believe that if the parks close 1 hour earlier for example, that Disney is re-allocating that hour during the open hours rather than saving the 1 hour. After all, aren't labor costs a significant variable cost for the parks?

But since the capacity has been low, we've probably been able to ride as many rides from 9 to 6 in January as someone else could do from 9 to 12 in the peak of high season. In fact, this might initially sound crazy but we've ended trying more things at WDW because the hours were shorter.

Scoop, buddy, I know you didn't really mean that last sentence. You didn't try more things because the hours were shorter. You tried more things in spite of the shorter hours, BECAUSE the crowds are lighter. Agreed. There is a very real justification for hours differing depending on season. But we are talking October to October. Its pretty safe to say crowds will not be lighter this October when compared to last, so guests will not be able to experience more. Even if attendance is only equal to last year, reduced hours will compress the crowds in to less time, which increases line lengths.

Since we don't have access to the books, guest survey data and patterns, etc, we can't really provide quantifiables. I think you are looking for tangibles. We can only hypothesize about the depth of the impact. Given that, here's what we have so far, as brought up by various posters:

1- Less time for rides.

2- Less time for enjoying the atmosphere, sitting on a bench, browsing stores, etc. Some guests will feel #1, some #2, some both.

3- Less flexibility in daily scheduleing. If you like to arrive at 11am, you either have to accept #1 or #2, or you must arrive earlier. Ability to take an afternoon break is reduced. (I know, its possible to schedule without it, but its very clear that some guests WANT to take it, and reduced hours limit their ability to do this)

4- Less time to experience MK at night. Again, very important to some guests (including me!). In Orlando, is it even dark at 6pm prior to DST kicking in at the end of October? I know its not dark here in CA...

5- Less time to experience MK when temps are more comfortable for some guests.

Even if there are a few more CMs in the park, that won't be enough to offset the reasons above. It could be argued that the negative impact is accptable, but I can't see how it can be argued that its not a negative impact.

[Walt's Frozen Head]

You didn't try more things because the hours were shorter. You tried more things in spite of the shorter hours, BECAUSE the crowds are lighter Actually, I believe he meant that shorter park hours led them to try more non-park Disney entertainments.

Which is probably a part of what Disney wants, more cash registers ringing in the pay-for-play venues.

Of course, since we're staying off-site because of no EE and renting a car because we hate the Disney busses, it's just as easy for us to try Church Street Station or CityWalk as it would be to spend that money at Bongo's or Rainforest Cafe.

-WFH

[raidermatt]

If it seems like I'm making an assumption that "less hours=less value," I think that's because I realize that the math I did applies only to me, and am therefore hesitant to plaster it on the board as having any wide-spread application, leaving readers without all the information I used to make the decision.

Well, I won't be so hesitant...;)

From a micro point of view, sure, there are cases when less hours = same value. For our group, the loss of EE applies here. It was not a loss to us.

But, oh frozen one, as you have pointed out many times before, we can't go back and forth with I like this, I don't like that. (not that you are...)

Taking the macro view, the question becomes do less hours = less value for some guests? Clearly, the answer is yes. The only questions are, is value being added in some other way, either for those same guests or for others, and what's the relative weight of those values.

The nacho analogy fits very well. As you said, nobody will be happy about the decision, at best, some will be indifferent. Some will be upset. So even though some guests do not have their experience impacted negatively, the fact that some do means we have to consider taking away Nachos, or shortening hours, to result in a diminished guest experience. The only question is how large is the impact, or is there some hidden upside.

[Miss Park Avenue]

We visit in May and have a 6:00pm closing time. And while we can "get in all the rides" by that time due to less crowds, that is not the reason we drive 1000 miles to the MK. If we wanted the "get in-ride-get out" experience, we would go to a local park. We have spent and invested our money in WDW for the atmosphere, entertainment and magic of Walt Disney World. We are a slow moving bunch too with little ones and grandparents but there's no time for nap/pool breaks, or just sitting around the hub taking in the sights and sounds. You've got to get moving to "get the rides in". Plus (and I don't mean to harp on this) but in May at 6:00 pm it is not even dark yet!!! I pay the same amount for my pass as those in the summer do and we never get to see ANY (let alone one) Sprectromagic parade, no fireworks, no standing under the trees with the twinkling lights watching the castle lit up with my kids (like the dad with his son on his shoulders in the commercials). Those things only happen on Saturday and since that is the day we arrive, we miss it entirely. Less hours is a BIG deal to May visitors like me.

I say, you want to reduce hours? Go back to general admission then and let us pay per attraction. The amusement parks around my home have weekend prices and weekday and holiday admission prices. Why should I have to pay for someone elses fireworks show and fireworks? Why should an elderly person pay so much when all he wants to do is sit and remember his youth on Main Street USA? If not, then at the VERY least, never let the MK close before dark Let the show end with the big finale parade and fireworks, we paid for it too. The way it is now is like sitting at the movies and the film breaks. You get in, ride, and get out.

[raidermatt]

Matt, first of glad we are buddies
Yes, now we should all hold hands and sing kum-by-yah (sp)....:)

Second, WFH is correct.
I stand (actually sit) corrected...

If MK had been open until 9pm, we probably would have stuck around until then just because we could...you know the people watching.
However, since it closed at 6pm, we tried other things.
Great, it worked out for you. But what we are really talking about is limiting your options. By closing earlier this October than last, some guests no longer have the choice to try other things (most of which do come at an extra cost).

Now that you've tried other things, suppose you still wanted to linger in the park. Sorry, can't do that as long as you used to.

The fact is, you always had the choice to try other options. Now, at least in October, you would not have the same choices you did last October.

I'm not saying that means you cannot enjoy your trip. As with any cutback, if it doesn't impact your family vacation, it wouldn't make sense to change your destination. Its like cutting off the nose to spite the face. So if you no longer care if you have the option of lingering in the park, the reduced hours are not negative to your experience (unless the compressed crowds cause a negative impact). However, they certainly aren't positive, and they will definitely be negatives to others.

So we have to say that from an overall perspective, reduced hours do decrease the guest experience.

Don't get me wrong, it would be great if the parks were open every day from 9-12. I'd applaud that. Unfortunately, I think my ticket would end up costing more for those kind of hours...just a hunch...
Agreed. But even if we only look at it from a net revenue point of view, there does come a point where closing earlier will also result in an increase in the price of your ticket. The question is, where is that point in October?

Also, WFH makes a very good point about those options that open up when parks close earlier. They aren't always on Disney property.

I'm sure Disney factored this into their decision, but only time will tell if they factored it in correctly, with the right weight.

[mrtoadslastride]

Part of the reason why these hours upset me so much is that we head to WDW each year in October. We typically plan our trip 6 months out from arrival. With WDW's current policy of setting park hours only weeks before the date we are now stuck. Since we already have tickets, reservations, etc. we have no choice but to head to WDW regardless of what the hours are.

My point is the 6 close time is enough for me to consider not going, however because they established hours so late I now don't have that option. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I don't think I will plan another trip until hours return to normal. For Disney's sake I hope the accountaneers didn't mis calculate the affect of reduced hours on attendance.

[Walt's Frozen Head]

Don't get me wrong, it would be great if the parks were open every day from 9-12. I'd applaud that. Unfortunately, I think my ticket would end up costing more for those kind of hours...just a hunch... Do you think such a ticket would cost more than the ticket you're buying now plus the DQ or PI or FG ticket you're also buying now, as you complete your WDW day?

One more thing I'd like to point out. Much of what you say is excellent information for those wishing to plan ahead and make the absolute most of what Disney still offers. Good stuff, and it's true that through planning ahead, you can nearly, if not perfectly, emulate the average pre-cuts Disney experience.

But a lot of us did nutty levels of planning ahead even pre-cuts, because we wanted to get all the Magic we could for the not inconsiderable sum we were paying then, making the most of what Disney offered at that point.

Disney refuses to sell us that vacation, anymore, although they still sell a vacation priced that way.

The pre-cut well-planned Disney experience is just gone. Guests are simply not offered, at any price, options that used to be included in the price of the ticket.

-WFH

[YoHo]

DQ or PI or FG ticket you're also buying now

Considering some part of those expireances are already included free of charge with most hopper and LoS passes, I suspect that yes there would be an increase.

Of course at the same time would there need to be an increase to maintain profit levels is a different question.

[raidermatt]

Between Matt aka Mr. Tom Brady fan,
AAAAAHHHH!!!! IT WAS A FUMBLE!!!!!!!!

Sorry, some things trigger some rather intense responses within my fragile psyche....

I've always understood why short hours wouldn't make sense but I also thought that the first weekend in Oct. was normally pretty slow.
We've been in Sept and May/June, and after our next trip (May again, tentatively), its going to be Summer only since Raidermatt Jr. will be in school.

My understanding is that Oct picks up somewhat from September. Certainly its not as busy as Summer, but it is busier than January.

...although, truth be told...I liked the old raidermatt better....
I'm still here, and I still don't think the Magic has faded all that much. But if 2002 hours are going to be as short or shorter than post 9/11 hours, geez, that's a tough one to take.

[TiggerFreak]

Being a DVC family, we are required to make our plans at least 7 months in advance to ensure the type of rooms we desire. So I agree that the current trend in publishing/adjusting park hours makes planning dificult.

We almost exclusively visit in Oct/Nov, for two of the reasons that others have stated, weather and crowds. If the MK hours (9-6) are in effect, then no Spectro or Fireworks or MainStreet at Night or Castle Lit Up. Our 5 yearold Grandson is going on his first trip to WDW and these are some of the things I hope to share with him. The inability to do this would be very disturbing, even with my glasses on.

All that said, last year, prior to our trip I was full of angst due the prognostications of many here on the boards that with the cuts in hours and staff, no Magic would be available in WDW.

Well, the trip (10-26 thru 11-1) was still wonderfull, early closing times that had been scheduled were extended. Parades that were not scheduled Magically appeared on the next days events list.

So... , with a trip scheduled for 10-26 thru 11-2, I will cross my fingers and hope that, again this year, all of this hand wringing is all for naught.

Hey, maybe all of our dreams will come true and ME will be gone by then;)

[Douglas Dubh]

It's probably easier PR-wise to schedule fewer hours and then extend them if demand is higher.

[DVC-Landbaron]

Mr. Scoop, it all comes down to OPTIONS!! (Didn’t you read the state of the parks address?? I ragged on that one pretty good!) That is my biggest complaint about the elimination of EE and the reduced hours. I no longer have any options. And my thirty years of Disney know-how and expertise at avoiding crowds, working against the flow and not having to guess where to be and when to be there, have gone right out the window!!! And I am forced, like cattle that Disney thinks we are, to be one of the herd!! It is humiliating (tour-guide as I usually am), aggravating and very, very frustrating!!! But that’s Disney lately. Not a guest, only a number

I AM NOT A NUMBER – I AM A FREE MAN!!!!!


(cult TV show reference. Anyone – anyone?)

[space42]

I've always understood why short hours wouldn't make sense but I also thought that the first weekend in Oct. was normally pretty slow.

I was looking for why exactly Jan. like hours in Oct. would be such a bad thing.

October is no longer "off season".
Crowds and weather should be about what they were in April / May sans spring break.

[d-r]

Originally posted by space42


October is no longer "off season".
Crowds and weather should be about what they were in April / May sans spring break.

Well, lots of us were there in May, and the MK closed at 6 on week days and later on the weekend. There were only fireworks on Saturday night. The thing that we did that was sort of a mistake was during the week we stayed at wlv - when you stay there you want to go to MK more. We should have stayed at bwv during the week, that way we would have been right next to the two parks that stayed open late. It gets to sort of be a drag getting on the bus back from epcot, so we didn't go every night. I think two or three of the week nights we hung out at the wilderness lodge, hot tubbed, ate at artist point, watched the electric water pagent, drank some beer, hung out at territory lounge, etc. There were lots of families doing the same thing, taking it easy swimming, relaxing, whatever. Everybody didn't have to cram in theme parks to every single waking moment, a lot of people were having a lot of fun taking it easy and enjoying the vacation - it would have been nicer in some ways to be at the epcot area because you could go to those parks easily, but it was nice to be at the wlv and live at that pace, too. So I'd reccommend people stay at bwv or beach club during the week off season, and just get a mk area hotel during the weekend.

I understand about time smelling the roses, really I do, but there are lots of roses that you can smell during off season, not all of them are at the MK. We usually go in May and September, and the past couple of years we went once in January and once in Feb. I think the most empy I have ever seen was October in 1998.

Editing here.

The really bad thing about off season is not going to the MK at night. That really is a special thing - tomorrowland all lit up, adventureland feeling adventur-y, main street lit up. During the off season you only get this on Saturday night, so it is a mad house, because everyone wants to be there. Now they don't even seem to have e-nights anymore during off-season, which is pretty bad, because then it gets hard to find that special night-time feeling, the kiss good night, etc.

Instead they keep mgm open until dark because of fantasmic. Fantasmic is OK and everything, but to me - just my opinion so don't flame me - to me if you are over four you only have to see fantasmic so many times. I wish that they would close MGM during the off season week nights and leave MK open until later. Actually, I think the best thing would be to alternate them, MK open later on some nights with fireworks, the studios open later on some nights with fantasmic! Now, that is only if there is no e-night - if there are e-nights then the studios could stay open later too.

DR

[manning]

Perhaps the reduction in attendance is not all the fault of the economy!!

[DVC-Landbaron]

Perhaps the reduction in attendance is not all the fault of the economy!!BINGO!!!!

[Miss Park Avenue]

Newbie here can't figure out how to quote so I'll just cut and paste.

DR says, "I wish that they would close MGM during the off season week nights and leave MK open until later. Actually, I think the best thing would be to alternate them, MK open later on some nights with fireworks, the studios open later on some nights with fantasmic!"


Now I can live with that! A few nights a week of late night MK. I just schedule my MK days when it's open later. Hopefully that won't conflict with the days Epcot is open AT ALL! :rolleyes:

[DVC-Landbaron]

Fear not fair maiden!! The Baron shall rescue you from the darkness and show you the light of the “QUOTE FUNCTION”.

At least that’s what I thought!!! But alas!! She ‘has chosen not to receive e-mails or PMs’!!

Ahhhh! It’s tough to be a good knight in the cyber age!!!

[Miss Park Avenue]

I know, internet chicken here! Too many scary things happening in the world today. I've got to keep my secret identity.

:cool: :smooth: :cool: :smooth: :cool: :smooth:

[Miss Park Avenue]

Have a great trip in October. For me (my parents are the DVC owners and they have the final word on when we go), May is when we go and there is no way to design a touring style to see the fireworks or spectro when there's none scheduled because the park closes 2 or 3 hours before dark. Maybe when my kids are in school and we start going in the summer we'll be able to catch them if things don't change. Or maybe by then every ride will have fastpass and the park will close at noon! If you go to the MK in Oct wait and see what it's like leaving at six. You'll be having this wonderful day and then suddenly someone turns off a switch. I walked with my daughter through the castle and walked with everyone toward the exit. Everyone was so quiet. It was broad daylight! It shouldn't end that way. We went to Epcot to finish off the day, (big deal, future world closes at 7). There was just something very sad about it. That's not the way to end a day at the MK. I hope someone changes something soon. In the meantime I have a picture of a lit up castle with fireworks on my desktop wallpaper.

[rasvar]

One other item, October is a prime convention time. I hate to say this; but those little special events pay some big bucks if you know what I am getting at.

[mjstaceyuofm]

Delve way back into your memory banks... At one point a few decades ago I could swear that during the off-season, the MK was open from 9-dusk (or even 10-dusk) and hours were extended to say 10 or 11 when attendance patterns dictated so (i.e. weekends, holidays). It used to be that when the sun went down, people intrinsically knew that it was time to saunter over to Main Street, look at the castle, get an ice-cream cone and shop as you moseyed on out. But alas, that does not happen anymore. I honestly think even if this were the policy, that people nowadays would abuse it and linger in the lands to get "that last ride". Whether this is a societal thing or the fact that Disney has forced us into getting the maximum out of the minimum - I don't know. As much as I like this idyllic philosophy, I just don't think it'd work. That's sad...

As many of you said, there's something inherently WRONG being herded out of the MK when it's still daylight out. My last 4 trips have all been subject to this - 2 in May and 2 in September. It just doesn't seem right to have to leave when it's daylight out. For reasons previously said by other posters - shorter hours = less value. And let's not get into this quantifiable argument. Disney as a corporation is quantifiable, the Disney experience is not. It's qualitative. Shorter hours takes away from the overall quality of the Disney vacation experience.

[mjstaceyuofm]

quantitative: capable of being measured.
quantify: to express the quantity of.

The two aren't all that different (at least for an engineer that doesn't have the best command of the language, but slightly better than some other engineers I know. ;) )

My whole point revolved around the history of the park hours and a long-forgotten policy. I guess it should have been posed as a question: does anyone else remember when the MK closed at dusk, irregardless of time?

[lrodk]

For those who may not have heard yet, Disney announced today (among other things) that they will miss their earnings mark for the next quarter, primarily due to softness in attendance and consumer spending at the theme parks. This perfectly explains why we've seen a reduction in park hours for this summer, fall and for the forseeable future. It seems that they knew about the short fall some time ago and had taken pre-emptive steps to soften the impact. Agree with it or not, it's all about damage control at this point. At this point it looks as though management is perfectly willing to sacfrifice whatever it takes to save their hides.

[BRERALEX]

if the parks are only open till six and you have to cram in all the rides that gives you even less time to shop and spend money in the shops cause you have to spend all your time rushing back and forth ride to ride. its a viscous circle. plus from what im hearing when the parks close i remember being abe to still shop but i now they shove us to the turnstiles. i think they lose in the long run with less hours

[raidermatt]

The million dollar question is how much of the softness is due to uncontrollable economic factors, and how much is due to cuts?

[dkellumw]

Here is the link to the story lrodk was talking about. (I hope the link works)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=580&e=3&cid=580&u=/nm/20020802/bs_nm/media_disney_stock_dc_2

[Bob O]

The parks are suffering due to all the awful decisions made by eisner. When will the company finally decide change is needed and it must come at the top. Eisner has fired enough people, when will he be replaced??? If the low stock price doesnt do it what will??

[DebbieB]

Well, lots of us were there in May, and the MK closed at 6 on week days and later on the weekend.

I was there the first week of May and that's the way it was originally scheduled. However, when the time came hours were extended on many days. I have the park hours from May 1 to 15 (from the World Update I got at check-in on May 4, I think some of the 6:00pm's may have been extended after it was printed):

May 1-3, 5-9, 13: 9am to 7pm
May 4: 9am to 10:30pm
May 10: 9am to 8:00pm
May 11: 9am to 10:00pm
May 12, 14, 15: 9am to 6pm

We arrived on May 4 and originally MK was supposed to close at 9:00 or 9:30 with one Spectromagic. It ended up being 10:30 with 2 runnings. Good thing - it was jammed. I wouldn't be too upset about October until the time comes and if they still show 6:00pm as closing. My bet is hours will be extended unless crowds are low. They are being conservative until closer to the date. Let's face it, if there is another "event" crowd levels could go down really fast, just like last fall.

[raidermatt]

Hours extensions have slowed recently...

We were there May 25-June 8th. A couple of weeks before we left, hours were extended by one hour on two separate nights, and decreased by an hour on another. (net gain of one hour)

After arrival, one additional hour was added, and there was the "surprise" ee on 6/1.

I'm not complaining about the adds, I think its great.

And I understand setting hours on the short side due to pr issues.

However, from what I've been reading, hours adjustments in June/July are very few. Maybe the slower season will bring more increases, but those increases are going to have to be pretty extensive just to get back to October 2001 levels (more than an hour per day).

[DVC-Landbaron]

I was there the first week of May and that's the way it was originally scheduled. However, when the time came hours were extended on many days…

SNIP

We arrived on May 4 and originally MK was supposed to close at 9:00 or 9:30 with one Spectromagic. It ended up being 10:30 with 2 runnings.You know, that sounds all well and good, but I think that frosts me more than the shorter hours!! I don’t know about the rest of you, but I plan my Disney trips!! Not minute by minute, but some things are unavoidable. Dinner or breakfast reservations, Hoop-Dee-Do, or even plans to visit IOA or Sea World!! It doesn’t matter what it is, plans, when one considers Disney, is a must!! There are numerous books written about “attacking” Disney commando style!! And then there are always the short vacations either because of limited funding or limited time. And we’re stuck with a capricious Disney!! I CAN’T HANDLE THAT!!!!

I know that with my luck, the MK will change it’s hours to midnight on the night I have 9:00 Hoop-Dee-Do reservations that were made months before!! And I think most of know how much I NEED a midnight close once in a while!!

Heck!!! If I can plan my little insignificant life in order to secure a dinner show reservation, don’t you think Disney can plan out their schedule, AND STICK TO IT, for a couple months at a time!! Do you really mean to tell me that they are cutting the margin soooo close that the hour, either way, really means that much to this mega-company??!?! Sorry!! I don’t buy it!!!!!

[Walt's Frozen Head]

It doesn’t matter what it is, plans, when one considers Disney, is a must!! There are numerous books written about “attacking” Disney commando style!! And then there are always the short vacations either because of limited funding or limited time. And we’re stuck with a capricious Disney!! I CAN’T HANDLE THAT!!!! This has been probably the orneriest burr under my frosty butt, as well, since before 9/11.

Disney has been playing these games since at least May of 2001.

Three houses of Jewell's are getting up early this week for cruise calling. We can't really buy Halloween Party tickets until we see when we are able to get cruises. We can't really make PSes for dinner until we know if we'll be in the MK area or the Epcot area (also, there's actually a hotel night we want to pick up at the beginning of the week, and where we stay will depend on what we're doing, that night).

Because of the hoops we have to jump through to create the WDW vacation that my family still feels is worth the money it costs to take, a big chunk of our schedule isn't easily reschedulable.

I believe that many of Disney's cost cutting measures are hitting people like me, the people who plan ahead and regularly give Disney money for things like cruises and dinners and event tickets, the hardest of all. I know that, in my case, anyway, it has cost Disney some amount of revenue: they cut EE, we could no longer justify the extra expense of staying on-site.

The people who already treat WDW like Six Flags... come in, ride a few rides, eat a hot dog and a funnel cake, buy a t-shirt and call it a day, they're not the ones who'll notice much difference with the way things have changed.

I feel Disney is alienating a chunk of its most loyal customers with their choices.

-WFH

[lrodk]

Do you really mean to tell me that they are cutting the margin soooo close that the hour, either way, really means that much to this mega-company??!?!

My guess is that scaling back hours(whether it be rides,restaurants,etc) is probably the easiest cost cutting measure to execute at the parks/resorts. As such, I think that park hours are a pretty reliable barometer of attendance. At this point, I would not be surprised to see some other form of cutbacks in the weeks/months to come. The hours are but a mere piece(a starting point if you will) of the overall plan, which when executed collectively makes a definite impact on earnings. This strategy has been going on for a couple of years now, which is why I sold out of all my Disney stock in early 2000, after having held the certificates for well over 10 years. I simply did not want to own stock in a company that had to cut corners so methodically in order to achieve it's goals. The scary part is that Disney is now among the best companies in the world at executing damage control protocols. They've virtually perfected the system. But let me tell you, that type of practice, when it becomes a part of your everyday business plan for more than a couple of quarters, is never a healthy sign, and usually indicates some sort of unraveling down the road. I still firmly believe that we have not hit rock bottom yet. I've said it before, things are going to get a whole lot uglier before they get better. Eisner will be the cause of his own undoing. The end will probably be written with him either resigning or being forced to do so. Then and only then will we see the beginning of a turnaround.

[Luv2Roam]

I agree that if Disney continues cut backs they will only be shooting themselves in the foot.
DH and I have not gone to WDW for several years, so we cannot say -- Way back when, Disney did this better or that.
But after awhile it becomes obvious as a slap in the face.
I don't think guests will take many more cutbacks, us included. Just IMHO.
Even we noticed the cutbacks everywhere: from the resorts to the park restrooms.
And believe it or not, there are actually other places to vacation and still have a great time! ;)

[Bob O]

This Dec im going to DL and i hope things are being run better at that park than what i hear about wdw when it comes to hours of operation. I dont visit the parks as often as alot on this board(every other year) but when i visit we do so in a commando type style in that im their when the parks open and leave at closing time and the reduction in hours affects my family greatly. And without EE im not staying on site for the first time in a decade which wont brankrupt the company but will cost them over a thousand dollars in hotel costs and meals. And it does make it alot harder to plan your stay. And with the reduction of hours it limits the amolunt of time you can leave the parks and go back to your hotel for swimming etc. For some the hours may not matter but for me its matters alot.