Would you go to SW if there were no Orcas?

[Head_in_the_clouds]

Just a hypothetical scenario in the light of the recent situation. If SeaWorld decided one day to stop using Orca's (killer whales) in their shows would you still visit the park? Are the Orca shows (Believe, Shamu Rocks etc) so important to you that you wouldn't go back to the park if they weren't there. Could you imagine a SW with no Shamu?

Me personally, I would still go. I love Believe and the Orca's but my favourite show is probably Clyde and Seamore and I love the laid back, chilled out vibe of SW and the highlight of the visit for me is feeding and interacting with the dolphins.

Do you think SeaWorld could survive without Brand Shamu? I wouldn't like this to turn into a debate about Orcas and captivity, whether its right or wrong although I have made in clear in other posts how I feel. I would just like to know how much of a part "Shamu" plays in your trip to SeaWorld and if you could visit SW without him?

[andrews_dad]

Shamu is SeaWorld. That would really harm the brand to get rid of their symbol. Diz with no Mickey.

That being said, I would still go. Personally I'd like to see them amp up the Sesame Street focus. The Elmo show (and Elmo Xmas Show) are great. I could see them spinning some new rides and attractions for the little kids to this end.

[Head_in_the_clouds]

Shamu is SeaWorld. That would really harm the brand to get rid of their symbol. Diz with no Mickey.

That being said, I would still go. Personally I'd like to see them amp up the Sesame Street focus. The Elmo show (and Elmo Xmas Show) are great. I could see them spinning some new rides and attractions for the little kids to this end.

Interesting, I've never seen the Elmo show! I think it is the most young child friendly park in Florida. I don't have children (yet) but I have thought for a few years its a nice park to take really little ones to when they first start to walk etc.

[andrews_dad]

My son has been twice (2 days each, 4 days total). Once at 6 months old and one at 1 year and 6 months. Both times were a HIT. The Elmo show is a MUST with kids under 5. After the show you head out the side and geet to pose/meet Elmo.

They have two different Elmo shows. One regular one and a different one at Xmas that is Sesame versions of Xmas carols and such. Wonderful.

[meldobe]

I would definately go if there were no killer whales, i've been once many years ago but didn't like watching the killer whales performing :sad2:and decided never to visit again so for me and my family it would mean we could visit seaworld on our trips to florida.

[Rosie]

I would still go.
There is so much else to see there and my favourite show is Pets Ahoy! with no Marine wildlife.
Yesterday was tragic and I also hope discussion is positive and not used as a vehicle for those who would close all Zoos and Animal parks down.

[andrews_dad]

I would definately go if there were no killer whales, i've been once many years ago but didn't like watching the killer whales performing :sad2:and decided never to visit again so for me and my family it would mean we could visit seaworld on our trips to florida.

That is too bad. I do Orlando 2 times per year. Somewhere in the range of 20-30 trips to the Diz theme parks and maybe 10 trips to SW (totalling 20 days at SW and 150+ days at the 4 main Diz parks). After Magic K, I think SW is the next best park in Orlando. Just a great place with something for all ages. Don't get me wrong, I love Epcot, AK, DHS, the water parks, even DizQuest. But if I only had 4 days to tour Orlando parks, it would be 2 at MK and 2 at SW every time.

[livndisney]

My son has been twice (2 days each, 4 days total). Once at 6 months old and one at 1 year and 6 months. Both times were a HIT. The Elmo show is a MUST with kids under 5. After the show you head out the side and geet to pose/meet Elmo.

They have two different Elmo shows. One regular one and a different one at Xmas that is Sesame versions of Xmas carols and such. Wonderful.

There is more Elmo coming to Sea World;)

[inkkognito]

I would go, but only because I live near SW and already have a season pass and love Manta. As a PP said, SeaWorld without Shamu is like Disney without Mickey.

[Head_in_the_clouds]

. After Magic K, I think SW is the next best park in Orlando.

Me too :thumbsup2!

[Metro West]

Would I continue to go? Absolutely. :thumbsup2

[Thumper_Man]

I would definately go if there were no killer whales, i've been once many years ago but didn't like watching the killer whales performing :sad2:and decided never to visit again so for me and my family it would mean we could visit seaworld on our trips to florida.

Just because there is an Orca show doesn't mean you still can't go to SW. Just avoid seeing the Orca show.

As for me, would I still go? Absolutely. For me, my favorite show is Blue Horizons (dolphin show). I love dolphins, they are my favorite animal in the whole world. I can spend hours watching them. Next trip, I'm hoping to do Discovery Cove and do the swim with them. If I can afford it. Plus I haven't been to SW since they added Manta. Can't wait to ride it.

[andrews_dad]

There is more Elmo coming to Sea World;)

Hint, hint, wink, wink? C'mon... what is the scoop? What do you know that I don't? ;)

[meldobe]

Just because there is an Orca show doesn't mean you still can't go to SW. Just avoid seeing the Orca show.
I couldn't give them my money if i don't agree with part of their park so its a no from me whilst they have orca performing.

[TitanBrett]

I would definitely go. Blue Horizons is my favorite anyway. That being said I think Sea World would have a hard time surviving without the whales. Also, the whales arent going anywhere so we dont need to worry about it.

[WickedElphaba]

I couldn't give them my money if i don't agree with part of their park so its a no from me whilst they have orca performing.
just curious why only orca? because of the risk factor?

[meldobe]

No its more to do with the life they lead as nothing created by a park can compare to life in the wild for a creature as large as an orca that lives in family groups and hunts together using great skill -i know the same can be said for dolphins etc but the size difference is a factor, just my opinion and not wishing to upset anyone that enjoys watching the orca as its each to their own :)

[Head_in_the_clouds]

I wouldn't like this to turn into a debate about Orcas and captivity, whether its right or wrong although I have made in clear in other posts how I feel. I would just like to know how much of a part "Shamu" plays in your trip to SeaWorld and if you could visit SW without him?

Whilst I respect Meldobe's opinion, just a polite reminder above! I just know how easily these things can disintegrate into a moral debate (although, thankfully it hasn't so far) and I wouldn't want this thread closed as one on a similar topic was this morning on the UK Trip Planning Board. Thanks for your insight everyone, seems like we are almost all agreed that we would still visit SeaWorld even if there was no Shamu :goodvibes.

[meldobe]

Sorry was just answering questions others had asked me, not wishing it to become a debate on the ethics.

[RabFlmom]

We love SW. We love Shamu( actually all the killer whales. They are beautiful creatures of earth that none of us or very few of us would ever have seen if not for them being in captivity in a park. I would still go to Sea world but I would definitely miss the shamu shows. I saw my first show in the early days of the park in Orlando and still remember that first show as if it were yesterday.

I first saw Dawn when she was just a young woman of 23 or 24 when I was chaperoning local school kids to SW . She was beautiful, loved her job, and loved sharing about it with anyone who would listen. All you had to do was look at her face when she was working and you saw her love of the animals. She brought joy to anyone who ever saw her in the water or knew her. RIP Dawn. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.

I really think she would want all the programs to continue so the world can continue to see these beautiful creatures that she loved.

[SandrA9810]

I would still go, but I would be highly dissappointed in Sea World's approach. And I'm sure the park would really suffer.

[scoochie75]

2 of the last 3 times we have been to Sea World we were not able to see the Whales due to births (our timing seems to be wonderful) - and we still had a wonderful time there. I would still continue to go if they needed to remove the Orcas from the site.

[donaldduck352]

I would still go.But it would'nt be the same.

[kathy884]

We love Sea World, but I have to say seeing the Orcas is our very favorite part of the whole experience. We have a mini Orlando trip coming up in March -- just three nights -- two days (March 16th and 17th). Our original plans were to do both days at Sea World. We have dine with Shamu booked on the 16th too. With the suspension of the Believe show and Dine with Shamu (if these aren't back by the 16th), rather than doing two days at Sea World, we'll do one day there and go to the Magic Kingdom on our second day instead.

[treehugnmama]

I live near Marineland in Niagara falls canada. We have been many many times from childhood to adult. We have orcas but no one ever goes in the water. When I was a child they did but I am in my 30's now and they no longer do. They used to do a show with the orca and have him jump to touch the ball, trainer ride him etc. Now the show is dolphins and sea lions.

I do not know they don't but when I was checking out Sw's site last year I was shocked to see the trainer in the water with the orcas....not to say it is right or wrong I was just suprised.

The only "show" with the orcas now is about 5 minutes and the trainers are on the outside of the tank and they have them splash and wave to the crowd. It was the "show" at Sw that was drawing me there but I would still visit without it.

[livndisney]

[QUOTE=andrews_dad;35593918]Hint, hint, wink, wink? C'mon... what is the scoop? What do you know that I don't? ;)[/QUOTE


I can tell you he is in rehearsals.......... :thumbsup2

[slowtalken]

Nope. Not a chance. Doubt that will happen though.

[palmtreegirl]

Definitely. We've only been to the Shamu shows once this year, didn't care for them, we enjoy the other shows a lot more.

[ajaysmom825]

@ Kathy884...
We have reservations for Dine with Shamu too on the 16th at 6:30. Haven't heard anything regarding whether or not this will be cancelled. As of right now the site just says "until further notice".

I am so sad for this tragedy. It is truly heartbreaking. :(

I have been to SW many times and have seen the park change and evolve. I don't know if I would be able to do the park with being able to see the Orcas. I am in love with their beauty and find myself mesmerized watching them. I could honestly stay at the underwater lookout for HOURS, except that my family would be very annoyed with me. My goal is to one day see the animals in the wild. IDK. Sea World without Shamu would be different. It would just be a spread out aquarium. There is still plenty to do without the Orcas, it would just be different.

[izzie-wizzie]

I'd definately still go, we had our first trip to orlando last October with 2 days at SW.

1st day we went to SW we went to see Believe and in comparison to the other shows we didnt enjoy it (for a variety of reasons) - and that was with the obvious high expectations that came from all the hype. Can honestly say the best bit about the show for us was the ice cold beers, and i dont even drink beer usually!
We never went to see it again the second day and have said in coming trips, we probably wouldn't go out of our way to see it (but would still visit SW). Although please dont take my dislike for the show as any disrespect to the tragedy, like everyone else im shocked and saddened by this.

Obviously thats a matter of opinion and we enjoyed things like the feeding dolphins/seals, penguins and the rides so much more - However for the vast majority of visitors to go without the big Shamu brand would take one mighty good PR/Publicity team to convince everyone there is more to SW than Shamu!!

[TiffinyKC]

I'll play along...

I would still go. There are many wonderful things there even after the killer whales.

Having said that there is no way Sea World will let the killer whales go. That is the side that their bread is buttered on. I am a huge Sea World fan; there are so many wonderful things that they do for the enviornment and marine mammals in general, but at the same time they are a business. Cash flow must continue. Going even further, they are a business that was recently purchased. Letting go of the killer whales would be like Coke no longer carrying Coke but still carrying Sprite and Fanta or whatever.

Good question though...:thumbsup2

[kathy884]

Ajaysmon825,
Thanks for posting!

I heard that they will be resuming the Believe show on Saturday, but Dine with Shamu is understandably still suspended. Maybe we'll see you at Dine with Shamu on the 16th? Our reservation is for 6:30 p.m. too. If we're not there, we'll be at the Shark' Underwater Grill (Planning to make that reservation first thing when we get to the park if "Dine with Shamu" is canceled). My dad told me he'd go make the reservation for me while the rest of us head for the Manta.

It sounds like you have the same awe and passion for Orcas that we do. My son especially just loves watching Tilly in the underwater viewing area and his enthusiam has rubbed off on me. We're always there way longer than the other people (usally for about 45 minutes every day we visit Sea World and he'd be there longer if we didn't suggest going to something else). He went to the Orlando Sea World overnight Junior High career camp last summer, and is going to go to the overnight camp for his age group at Sea World San Diego this coming summer. He'd love to see all three of their marine parks.

We've done Whale Watching day trips out of Victoria in British Columbia too. On one of the trips we saw the resident J/K/L pods who are playful, slap their tails a lot, and just eat fish. On the other day excusion we saw a transient pod who was traveling though the area. They aren't as playful and are quite quiet -- hunting behavior to sneak up on porpoises, etc. We liked both of these trips, but (and as it should be) you don't get that close to the Orcas unless you get really lucky (occasionally they'll swim up by the boats when they are stopped). There are laws for Orca protection (makes all kinds of sense) to have boats keep a good distance away and not disturb them. Sea World is definately the best place we know of to see Orcas up close.

General comment:
Sea World taking the Believe show off of suspension, just saved me $340 (four admissions to the Magic Kingdom). With this show back on, my son wants to go to to Sea World both days on on our mini spring break trip rather than do Sea World and a Disney park (our plan B). We have annual passes to Sea World, but even if we didn't second day is free.

[thelittlemermaid83]

I'm more into dolphins than the Orcas, but I would still go. I love Seaworld, without them I wouldn't be able to get up close to the animals I love the most.

[MommaMouse411]

They would have to definately think of something else to fill that void..i love seaworld..I love that they have good dining places...Elmos Breakfast is good...the Mahakaki Luau (however its' spelled) is good..and Dine with Shamu is very nice...the dolphin show is awesome...the Clyde & Syemor show is great...not crazy for the Nautilus show? its the acrobats...but my son and I love to feed the dolphins, we love to go through the shark tunnels...I would personally like to see more FISH!!!!! and the manatees there are the cleanest manatees I've seen!!!!

but seaworld without shamu??? never happen..the place wouldn't succeed...only die hard fans like myself will still go but that won't sustain it...

I really love the ORcas though..I mean I still am amazed everytime I go...just crazy how they can train these HUGE @$$ mammals to do tricks!!!!

[charming23]

I would still go to Sea World if there were no Orcas but I would miss them terribly.

I grew up going to the Sea World of Ohio and the Whales were my favorites. I was always so mesmarized by those giant animals and even thought of becoming a trainer for some time (I can't swim very well so that went out the window) but my love for them has always continued.

I would still go without them because I believe in what Sea World does outside of the parks as far as animal conservation goes. And I enjoy the sea lion and otter show,

[PaulaSB12]

I would still go, but I would be highly dissappointed in Sea World's approach. And I'm sure the park would really suffer.

It would be better for the park to suffer rather than the situation now where the whales and dolphins suffer. Are we that selfish?

[livndisney]

It would be better for the park to suffer rather than the situation now where the whales and dolphins suffer. Are we that selfish?

Selfish? It seems to me you are the selfish one. You want the park to suffer. You want the people that go into making the park the wonderful place that it is, to suffer. All for some misguided "ideal" that has no practical execution.

What would you have Sea World do with the animals they have rescued that cannot be return to the wild due to injury?

And as far as the animals "suffering", I bet your health care doesn't come anywhere close to the high level of care these animals enjoy.

[PaulaSB12]

Selfish? It seems to me you are the selfish one. You want the park to suffer. You want the people that go into making the park the wonderful place that it is, to suffer. All for some misguided "ideal" that has no practical execution.

What would you have Sea World do with the animals they have rescued that cannot be return to the wild due to injury?

And as far as the animals "suffering", I bet your health care doesn't come anywhere close to the high level of care these animals enjoy.

Stop them performing let the die out naturally and STOP BREEDING THEM they belong in the wild not performing idiot tricks. If their health care is so good why is the survival rate of animals right from birth worse than in the wild?

[Head_in_the_clouds]

Once again, I ask please for us to keep on topic. In my OP, I asked that this not turn into a debate. I merely posed a hypothetical situation in which if, for whatever reason, SW had no orcas, would you still go? It had occurred to me that I definitely would. I wondered if others felt the same way. It would seem for the most part that many do. At this rate the thread will end being closed like two threads over on the UK boards have. Everyone has a right to an opinion but this thread has started to go way off topic and I don't want nasty comments to start flying back and forward as has started to happen already.

Thank you to those who have answered my original question. Your answers have been interesting and insightful :).

[treehugnmama]

another option is that they have the orcas but don't get into the water.....i do not think that would happen but that is what they do at marineland. They are still amazing to watch via the underground viewing area.

2 years ago we saw a baby beluga born it was amazing.

[floridianer]

Stop them performing let the die out naturally and STOP BREEDING THEM they belong in the wild not performing idiot tricks. If their health care is so good why is the survival rate of animals right from birth worse than in the wild?

HOW could you know the survival rate in the wild???? :confused3
Are you there, counting every new born and every dieing whale????

What about Manatees?? They started breeding programms to let this species survive should they have problems in the wild... Should we free them all and say SORRY if they extinct?? :confused3

And I guess your point wasn´t what the OP asked. He wanted to know who would still go to seaworld if the whales were gone. Not if they should be there.
I personally wouldn´t go. They are a HUGE part of Seaworld for me and allthough the sealions, Dolphins and all the other animals are great, SHAMU is the Centerpiece of the park!
That is what makes Seaworld so special.
There are SOOO many parks with dolphins, Manatees or sealions.
Or coasters.
The Killer Whales are what makes it special, to ME!

:cloud9:

[SandrA9810]

I love what Sea World does for all marine life, and their approaches to how they do things. I guess being a native Floridian, I hear more of these things first hand.

Any time there's a need, all the different parks work together... Disney, Sea World, Bucsh Garden, Miami Aquarium, Miami Zoo... they all head out together to do the best that they can.

I would hate to see the whales gone, and something happen to the park. So I will show my support for the park and continue going every other day. I just don't have it in me to stop going if they made a choice like that.

[joviroxx]

I love what Sea World does for all marine life, and their approaches to how they do things. I guess being a native Floridian, I hear more of these things first hand.

Any time there's a need, all the different parks work together... Disney, Sea World, Bucsh Garden, Miami Aquarium, Miami Zoo... they all head out together to do the best that they can.

I would hate to see the whales gone, and something happen to the park. So I will show my support for the park and continue going every other day. I just don't have it in me to stop going if they made a choice like that.

:thumbsup2

The amount of stories of how Sea World has been called in to help hurt whale sfound in the wild, The amount of stories where they have released these whales after bringing them back form near death. You don't hear a lot about those stories, but they exist.

And they can help, you know why? Because having the orcas, they are able to research and learn about them. Keeping these orcas and learning from them (not just teaching them tricks and making them perform as some people think) has taught them so much that they are able to save and help the orcas population. The population of manatees was saved in just this way and they were brought back from extinction.

SeaWorld is about so much more than "putting wild animals on display". These parks attempt to teach. And if you go, you can see how much you can learn about the amazing creatures that inhabit our oceans.

[Tillikumtrainer]

[QUOTE=ajaysmom825;35604581]@ Kathy884...
We have reservations for Dine with Shamu too on the 16th at 6:30. Haven't heard anything regarding whether or not this will be cancelled. As of right now the site just says "until further notice".
[QUOTE]

they said they will resume the dine with shamu next week

[PaulaSB12]

HOW could you know the survival rate in the wild???? :confused3
Are you there, counting every new born and every dieing whale????

What about Manatees?? They started breeding programms to let this species survive should they have problems in the wild... Should we free them all and say SORRY if they extinct?? :confused3

And I guess your point wasn´t what the OP asked. He wanted to know who would still go to seaworld if the whales were gone. Not if they should be there.
I personally wouldn´t go. They are a HUGE part of Seaworld for me and allthough the sealions, Dolphins and all the other animals are great, SHAMU is the Centerpiece of the park!
That is what makes Seaworld so special.
There are SOOO many parks with dolphins, Manatees or sealions.
Or coasters.
The Killer Whales are what makes it special, to ME!

:cloud9:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_orcas#Tank_size_and_water_conditions
Disease and reduced lifespan

Captive killer whales have vastly reduced life expectancies, many having only lived into their 20s; however, there are examples of orcas living longer, including many who are over 30 years old, and two (Corky II and Lolita/Tokitae) who are around 40 years of age. In the wild, female orcas can live 80 years (though these are rare occurrences), while males can live to be 60 (though the average for males is roughly thirty).

SeaWorld San Antonio's 14-year-old Taku, born in captivity, died unexpectedly on October 17, 2007. Trainers were notified that Taku had been acting differently a week before his death. The necropsy determined that Taku had died from a sudden case of pneumonia, a common illness among captive orcas.[50][51]

The original Namu developed a bacterial infection which damaged his nervous system, causing him to become nonresponsive to people. During his illness he charged full-speed into the wire mesh of his pen, thrashed violently for a few minutes and then died.[52]
[edit] Dorsal fin collapse
This male (Tilikum), at SeaWorld Orlando, has a collapsed dorsal fin.

Most male captive killer whales, and some females, have a dorsal fin that is partially or completely collapsed to one side. Several theories exist as to why this happens. A dorsal fin is held erect by collagen, which normally hardens in late adolescence.

Scientists from the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) have reported that "the collapsed dorsal fins commonly seen in captive killer whales do not result from a pathogenic condition, but are instead thought to most likely originate from an irreversible structural change in the fin's collagen over time. Possible explanations for this include: (1) alterations in water balance caused by the stresses of captivity dietary changes, (2) lowered blood pressure due to reduced activity patterns, or (3) overheating of the collagen brought on by greater exposure of the fin to the ambient air."[53] According to SeaWorld's website, another reason for the fin to bend may be the greater amount of time that captive whales spend at the surface, where the fin is not supported by water pressure.[54] The Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society says that dorsal fin collapse is largely explained by captive killer whales swimming in small circles due to the inadequate space in which they have to swim.[55] SeaWorld, however, claims that "Neither the shape nor the droop of a whale's dorsal fin are indicators of a killer whale's health or well-being."[54]

Collapsed or collapsing dorsal fins are rare in most wild populations and usually result from a serious injury to the fin, such as from being shot or colliding with a vessel.[53] After the 1989 Exxon Valdez oil spill, the dorsal fins of two male resident killer whales who had been exposed to the oil collapsed, and the animals subsequently died. In 2002, the dorsal fin of a stranded killer whale showed signs of collapse after three days but regained its natural upright appearance as soon as the orca resumed strong normal swimming upon release.[53]

Although it has been reported that seven out of 30 (23%) wild adult male killer whales from New Zealand waters have bent dorsal fins,[54][56] this figure includes a variety of dorsal fin abnormalities, including rippled or twisted fins, in addition to simple one-sided collapse.[57] The New Zealand study noted that, in addition to the high prevalence of dorsal fin deformities, two of the 30 adult males in this population also had prolific body scarring that were consistent with bite marks from other killer whales.[57] The prevalence of dorsal fin deformities is 4.7% among adult male orcas in British Columbia and 0.57% in Norway.[57] Amongst the well-studied wild killer whales off the coast of British Columbia, the total rate of dorsal fin collapse is around 1%.[58][59]

http://www.wdcs.org/submissions_bin/Which_would_you_prefer.pdf

From the Whale and dolphin conservation society

Wild Orcas
Males live to an average age of 35 years (max 50 - 60 years
Females live to an average of 50 years (max 80 - 90)
Groups can travel up to 160km (100 miles a day)
Home ranges can be 800 to 1500 km (500 - 900 miles) per day
are extremely social
have highly developed brains
are supremely adapted to the rigours of life in the ocean
live inclosely bonded matrillineal groups
captive orcas
most do not survive over the age of 20
136 orcas have been caught from the wild
123 of them are now dead (medium survival 4.5 years)
the median age of orcas born in captivity (to survive over 12 months) is 8.5 years
Shame stadium is only 10.7 m deep
four captive orcase are kept on their own (ie Lotita)
are regularly transferred for breeding programmes
are seperated from their family members.

If we are just going to remember the trainer please remember Alexis Martínez from Puerto de la Cruz died 24th December 2009 drowned by a killer whale but unfortunatly forgotten already.

[RabFlmom]

I am sorry. Moderators I think it is time to close this topic. This was not a forum to debate whether it is right or wrong to have animals kept in captivity. It is safe to say no one will be convinced by the other side, so time to close and say we agree to disagree and let it go.

[Head_in_the_clouds]

I am sorry. Moderators I think it is time to close this topic. This was not a forum to debate whether it is right or wrong to have animals kept in captivity. It is safe to say no one will be convinced by the other side, so time to close and say we agree to disagree and let it go.


As the person that started this thread and specifically requested in my OP that this not turn into a captivity and anti captivity debate because it has no place here, I agree this thread should be now closed. I asked three times that we stay on topic. I am annoyed that it has turned out this way and that people have posted without having the decency to even answer my original question. If you can't be bothered to answer the question in the title of the thread, why would you even post on this thread :confused3? To everyone who has answered my question, thank you for your answers. I do apologise for the way this thread has turned out.

[phamton]

I'm locking this thread since it has veered from the original question.