ECV and Buses

[mrsv98]

Hi! :wave: I have never posted on this board but I think it is just the place to find an answer I need. We are taking a family trip in Feb and my (then) 84 yo grandma will be joining us for a few days. I have already researched ECVs and will rent one but now we would like to know about the transportation situation. How do we deal with the ECV on the buses? Can they be placed on and off and who does it, us or the driver? If the driver puts it on for us, do we tip? TIA for all your help!

[Nanajo1]

The person using the ECV usually is the one who drives it onto the bus with the driver guiding. The ecv is backed onto the lift and the driver raises the lift up. The ECV is then moved into place and secured. The person can stay in the ECV or move to a seat. Busses that have ramps are newer. The ECV is driven up the ramp then maneuvered into place. I have heard of family members loading the ECV for those that are unsure of themselves. After a couple of times it becomes easier to do. I would strongly suggest a trial run with an ECV at your local Wal-Mart etc. IMO it is not difficult to drive but it is a motor vehicle and should be respected as such.

[SueM in MN]

Welcome to disABILITIES.
I just want to add a little to Nanajo's answer.
The bus driver will secure the ecv after it is on the bus and you don't need to tip.
If you think of any other questions, just go ahead and ask.

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

(A note on Terminology... CM's refer to electric scooters (and sometimes electric wheelchairs) as ECV's... Electric Convenience Vehicles... )


For the most part, all of Disney Transport is fully accessible, in theory. I say that, because there are certain situations that make things a bit difficult.

Ferryboats, FW/WL Cruisers, and Friendship Cruisers are all wheelchair and ECV (scooter) accessible. However, if the water level becomes too low, this is subject to change. (If the water level does become too low, talk to a cast member, they'll arrange transportation for you.) Note that the Launches to the GF and Poly from the MK are not accessible unless the wheelchair can be folded.

The Monorail is fully accessible, however, at the Magic Kingdom and TTC, there are large ramps that one must go up and down. Most ECV's have no problem with these ramps, however, a low battery might encounter trouble. (Note that going from Resort to Epcot, and Epcot to Resort or Express monorails, you do have to go down, and then back up. Elevators are provided at Grand Floridian, Polynesian, Contemporary, and Epcot.


As far as Busses go... Our entire fleet is wheelchair and ECV accessible. However, some busses are temporarily non-wheelchair busses, because of lift problems, or whatnot. Out of our 241 guest busses, probably about 5-10 of them have broken lifts at any given moment. So, 99% of the time, you won't have to worry about that. If a bus does come, and the lift doesnt work, the driver will radio the coordinator, and they'll send out another bus.

Another thing to note, if you're staying at a multi-stop resort, and when the bus gets there... if there are guests sitting in the fold up seats, where the wheelchair straps are, the driver cannot force them to move. Pretty much usually, if there are other seats available, most people will automatically move without being asked. However, there are a few stubborn people out there. If all the seats are filled, the driver cannot ask those guests to give up thier seat. However, due to Federal ADA Law... if the bus cannot accomodate the guest travelling in the wheelchair due to the seats being unavailable, the driver technically cannot board anyone else from that particular stop. The bus is considered "Full." However, at the next stop, the driver is allowed to board passengers again. Once again, this is a Federal ADA (Americans With Disabilities) Act Law... not Disney policy. I had some guests calling me some non-Disney words the other day because I was unable to board them... they didn't seem to understand the law. I felt bad, but there was nothing I could do.

The RTS busses are standard floor busses, and use a hydraulic lift in the rear stairwell. Guests back thier wheelchair/ECV into the lift, and it brings them up like an elevator. The guest then backs the wheelchair/ECV into the designated area, and the cast member will secure the wheelchair. Although one can remain in the wheelchair/ECV (seat belts are provided if desired), Disney recommends that a guest in an ECV transfer to a regular seat if possible.

The new Nova LFS low floor busses that we use, have a ramp located in the rear doorway. The bus will tilt itself, and then the ramp will be deployed. Standard wheelchairs may board forward, but all electric wheelchairs and ECVs MUST board in reverse for safety reasons. (A lot of wheelchairs/ECV's are not balanced properly, and I've seen a lot tip backwards when on the ramp... this is why we ask to board in reverse)

Once on the bus, the driver will secure the wheelchair or ECV into the bus. If you remain in the wheelchair or ECV, there is a seat belt available, but it is optional. However, by declining the seatbelt, you release Walt Disney World of all liability. Typically, if the wheelchair is secured down properly, it's not going anywhere, however, each situation is different. As for an ECV, I always highly recommend transferring to a regular seat for your safety. Most ECV's can not be secured down properly... they weren't designed for it.

Also note... The driver is technically not allowed to assist in the moving of the ECV/Wheelchair for liability reasons, although a lot of drivers will offer assitance. And I know a lot of you want to help us out by setting the straps yourself, however, please leave that one to us. We know where the best areas are to strap (Higher the better).

One more note... If needed, you can have someone else drive the scooter into the bus and park it... and we'll be glad to let the guest needing the scooter to ride the lift up...

Pretty much all of the bus drivers are all VERY friendly and helpful when it comes to guests requiring special assistance. We try to make things as easy as possible. I always hand out "Honorary Bus Driver" cars to those in ECVs, telling them that if they can park the ECV in the bus, then they're good drivers.

As for stops... Most stops are quite easy to get in and out of. However, a few stops were designed by Imagineers who were high on Pixie Dust, and while still acessible, they're not too friendly. Those stops are:
Contemporary (hard to get the bus up to the curb)
Polynesian (Must drive bus into bush, and have guest exit onto side road in bush)
Old Key West - Hospitality House (again, must go into bushes... Other stops are fine)
Some All-Stars (Big light pole, or bushes in the way, must move bus forward)
Stop #7 at Studios - Impossible to get bus into load zone
MK Stop at the Beach Club - Possible... but akward, when bus is "properly" parked, rear door opens into bushes. Must stop short.

I've been working with my manager on trying to solve these situations, however, at this current time, I have no power, and neither does he, in these matters. But, I will keep trying.


Some Tips that I might add...

Once you rent the scooter, set some time aside to "Practice"... I know it sounds corny, but pretend you're on a skills course, and have to do some tough driving. The reason why I suggest this is that all too many times, guests rent the scooters, and don't know how to use them, or how to drive them.

Please be courteous to those around you. In reference to those above, I've had folks behind me in line who would "gun it" and then ram my ankles (ow!).

While we're on the topic... 99% of the scooters have a power setting. Turtle -> Bunny. I can't stress this enough... SLOW AND STEADY WINS THE RACE. I've had guests put thier ECV in Bunny mode, zip up the ramp, into the monorail, and out the other side. When navigating tough areas, PLEASE, use the turtle setting. Ultimatly, I have found that guests using Turtle are able to park thier ECV 10x quicker in the bus than those using Bunny.

Okay... I think I got it all...

[Nanajo1]

Tyler,
Thanks for an expert's advice. I have a couple of questions. I have seen signs on the inside of busses that when up front state "these seats must be made available to disabled, H/p riders" and back by the folding seats a sign that states" these seats must be vacated for w/c and or ECV passengers" or something like that. This was last March. Are they not correct? Also I was told to drive my ECV up the bus ramp. How are folks not use to driving an ECV doing backing uphill? As slight an incline as it is I can see some spooked folks! I back my power chair up my van ramp so I don't anticipate a problem.
Again, thanks and welcome to the disAbilities board.
PS I think you may hear from Lisa about lumping ECVs and power chairs together! :)

[SueM in MN]

Thank you, Tyler for the really complete transportation report. I'm also curious about Nanajo's question. We've been using WDW transportation with a wheelchair in annual visits for a long time (I think 1987 was our fist visit with DD (daughter) in her wheelchair. I have noticed those signs on other public transportation too.

Then some additional info:
If you remain in the wheelchair or ECV, there is a seat belt available, but it is optional. However, by declining the seatbelt, you release Walt Disney World of all liability. Typically, if the wheelchair is secured down properly, it's not going anywhere, however, each situation is different.
As you mention, the seatbelt is optional - because buses are not required to have seat belts. It is part of the restraint system and without it, the wheelchair or ecv might not be going anywhere, but in an accident or sudden stop, you will.
And I know a lot of you want to help us out by setting the straps yourself, however, please leave that one to us.
While I agree that the actual attachment of the straps should be left to the driver, we have found that the driver often can not see that a belt has become twisted, so the person in the wheelchair or a member of their party should let the driver know if they see a strap is twisted.
A suggestion to drivers: When disconnecting the straps, take a few extra seconds to straighten out the straps before stowing them away. It takes a lot less time to do it then than to have to untangle them later. We have actually got onto a bus and had to get off again without riding because the straps were too twisted to be used. (My DH [husband] hasn't been trained to do this hint every time yet in our van.]
We know where the best areas are to strap (Higher the better).
This is true for rented wheelchairs or ecvs because the drivers are probably much more familiar with those chairs than the people using them are. However, is someone has their own wheelchair, they often know where the best, safe tiedown spots are. On every trip, we have several drivers attach tiedowns to the swingaway footrests on DD's wheelchair and/or to the seatback supports. These are not safe places because they are not a part of the wheelchair frame.
If people own their wheelchair, I suggest that they find out where the safe spots are before their first bus trip. Especially if they have an unusual or custom wheelchair. Many people have their own vans or their wheelchair travels regularly on school or other buses, so they already know where to tie them down.
I actually mark the safe tiedown spots on DD's wheelchair with bright tape before our trip. It's very easy to tell the driver, "They safe points are marked with pink tape. You can attach in any of those spots." Bus drivers have thanked me for doing that. It makes things much quicker than having to figure it out on an unusual wheelchair.

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by Nanajo1
I have seen signs on the inside of busses that when up front state "these seats must be made available to disabled, H/p riders" and back by the folding seats a sign that states" these seats must be vacated for w/c and or ECV passengers" or something like that. This was last March. Are they not correct?


Actually, there's been a lot of discussion about those signs. In the past, those signs have been the standard signs that you will find on any transit bus in the US. They probably come standard from the manufacturer. At any rate, they read: "Priority Seating: Seats below this sign must be offered to wheelchair passengers." Now, at Disney it is imprinted in our brains that we always place the person first... the term "wheelchair passenger" IMHO, isn't proper. But of course, no one really noticed these signs, and they've been on our busses for years. A few months ago, I went to my managers in regards to them... and as of the other day, we now have new semi-friendlier signs. The new signs are lighter in color, easier to read, more visible, and say something to the effect of, "these seats must be offered to guests with wheelchairs"... I'll get the exact wording when I head into work, but it's a bit more friendly. As for the word "Must" I'm not an expert on ADA law, perhaps someone could clarify this for me... but from what I am to understand, we can ask, however we cannot force anyone to move or give up thier seat. The sign might just be there to help clear the seats... *shrug*





Originally posted by Nanajo1
Also I was told to drive my ECV up the bus ramp. How are folks not use to driving an ECV doing backing uphill?
Originally, we allowed folks to drive up the ramp in forward. However, there was an incident that I'm probably not allowed to speak of. Suffice to say, the low floor busses became non-accessible busses for about two weeks... and then it was decided that we could allow elecric wheelchairs and ECVs under the stipulation that they board in reverse.

From what I am told, the reason for this is that a lot of ECV's and electric wheelchairs (mostly the rented ones) are not balanced properly, and during some situations will have a tendancy to tip backwards when travelling up the ramp. Now, I do understand that a lot of power chairs are properly balanced, and specifically have special wheels in the back to prevent such a tip over... however, Disney policy is now such so that unless it's a manual push wheelchair... it must board in reverse.

Surprisingly, most people don't have too much trouble backing thier wheelchair/ECV/scooter/power chair/whatever it may be onto the low floor bus... and once inside the bus, they can just back into the space, and slide the front end into it...

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by SueM in MN
A suggestion to drivers: When disconnecting the straps, take a few extra seconds to straighten out the straps before stowing them away.


One thing I always do is make sure my straps are always properly straightened, and out of the way. All too often, I'll get on a bus, and the straps will be hanging loose, and causing a trip hazard, so I will always make sure they are untangled, and then link them together, under the seat, making sure they remain untangled, out of the way, and ready for immediate use. :)



Originally posted by SueM in MN
I actually mark the safe tiedown spots on DD's wheelchair with bright tape before our trip. It's very easy to tell the driver, "They safe points are marked with pink tape. You can attach in any of those spots." Bus drivers have thanked me for doing that. It makes things much quicker than having to figure it out on an unusual wheelchair.

That is a great idea! Often times I spend a lil bit searching for a safe place to attatch the hooks or straps...

[Talking Hands]

Tyler
Please note that the term Electric Convenience Vehicle is offensive to many who use ECVs. A better term is electric conveyance vehicle. The term convenience has distinct implications as far as attitude towards those who must use them. (ie iit is a convenience not a need)
And any person who calls my Power wheelchair will be quickly and strongly corrected if I hear it.
I find most of the bus drivers extremely hard to deal with because they persist in talking to my back even after I inform them I am hard of hearing. That is very fustrating. Please if someone informs you they are hard of hearing assume they need to see your face in order to understand your speech.

[Talking Hands]

I find the new policy that electric wheelchairs must back up the ramp on the nova bus distressing. This in effect makes me back up blind with no help if I am alone. If I am going to the side I may not realize it until my wheelchair is already going off the side. This puts me in a very dangerous situation. BTW my wheelchair is properly balanced and the recommendation of the manufacturer was never to back up a ramp.

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by Talking Hands
Tyler
Please note that the term Electric Convenience Vehicle is offensive to many who use ECVs. A better term is electric conveyance vehicle. The term convenience has distinct implications as far as attitude towards those who must use them. (ie iit is a convenience not a need)

Thank you for informing me, I totally understand what you are saying, and I shall remember that for future reference. I'm sure you know that in no way did I mean any offense, however, I do apologise.

Out of curiousity... I have noticed that there are many many different types of electric wheelchairs, power chairs, scooters, whatnot... Is there one general term that could be used to describe all of these? Previously at Disney, we've just used the term "ECV", as a general description... however, typically we've been told it stood for the prior rather than the latter. I don't mean to sound ignorant... but rather, I'm just trying to improve my communication... :)

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by Talking Hands
I find the new policy that electric wheelchairs must back up the ramp on the nova bus distressing. This in effect makes me back up blind with no help if I am alone. If I am going to the side I may not realize it until my wheelchair is already going off the side. This puts me in a very dangerous situation. BTW my wheelchair is properly balanced and the recommendation of the manufacturer was never to back up a ramp.

I can totally understand that your wheelchair is balanced properly, and that the manufacturer reommends going up in forward... however, Disney's lawyers probably don't understand that, and as such the new policy doesn't allow for it. When the new policy took effect, all the drivers had to sign a form that stated the following.

Guests travelling with ECV's, electric wheelchairs, power chairs, etc, have the following options:

1.) Board the bus up the ramp in reverse
2.) (If possible) Step out of the chair, and have someone else guide it up the ramp. If no one is sitting in it, it may go up in forward.
3.) Wait for an RTS bus with a lift.


Unfortunetly, that is how our current policy is... I will talk to my management and see if I can get some answers on situations like yours, where it would be advantageous to board in forward.

[JudithM]

Tyler, thank you so much for the great information about Disney transportation. I use an Electric Convenience Vehicle while I am at WDW - it is a convenience for me :). I am thinking of renting one off property for our next couple of trips, so your info is appreciated.

[Talking Hands]

Tyler
Unfortunately waiting for a second bus can be a problem for me since the interpreted shows I want to see are only done one time per day at the park where the interpreters are that day. Waiting for the second bus often means I don't see the show I am going to see. Happened to me at the All Stars in June. I never did get to see Diamond Horseshoe that day.

Having multiple handicaps can be a real problem when meeting guests needs especially when one is hearing and you depend on interpreters. They have a strict schedule.

Btw I have had drivers load able bodied passengers and then tell me there is no room for me.
I've had them try to force my wheelchair up the ramp on a Nova bus and nearly topple the chair and injure me after I told them the ramp was too steep for my chair and I would wait for one with a lift.
I've had drivers pass me by, stop drop passemgers and not pick me up (bus was nearly empty)
And at Ft Wilderness had them refuse to wait while I was unloaded from on bus to get on the next.
I also had them slam the doors on my 2 daughters and drive off without them.

I've been in a wheelchair about 10 years now and have gone to WDW about 50 times over that time so I have had plenty of experience with the bus system.

Recently we have so many hassles that my husband has choosen to drive the car instead of my having to put up with the buses.

Best driver was the one who drives for the Backstage Magic Tour.

Most people refer to the Scooters as scooters and the wheelchairs as either electric wheelchairs or power wheelchairs. That is the people who use them regularly.

[Nanajo1]

My power chair is my power chair. My ECV is my scooter!

[SueM in MN]

I have noticed that there are many many different types of electric wheelchairs, power chairs, scooters, whatnot... Is there one general term that could be used to describe all of these?

If you want to use one general term that includes all of these, you could call them Mobility Devices.
For definitions and a little primer:
ECVs, Electric Convenience Vehicles, Scooters, Electric Scooters, Electric Cartsall refer to the same thing. I've also heard some people call these Electric Wheelchairs. The name "Electric Convenience Vehicles' was made up by the companies that make them -probably someone thought it was a good term for marketing. As Lisa mentioned, some people feel it's an offensive term because it implies that people don't need them, it's just convenient to use them. Most people know what you mean by just saying ecv or scooter, so doing that avoids any problems with names. People who use ecvs can usually walk, but need assistance for going distances. They are usually driven with a "tiller" type control and have a simple seat. They usually have pretty simple controls (Rabbit and turtle like you mentioned earlier) and most people can learn to drive them with little practice. A lot of people rent them when they go to WDW because they would not be able to walk the distances involved in going to the parks. Some people own their own and bring it to Orlando. Because ecvs are designed to break down into pieces that fit into a trunk, many experienced ecv users might not have used theirs on a bus before. Here's a picture of a common type of ecv.
http://www.pridemobility.com/Products/SCOOTER/Vic2002_Blue4whl_110x92.jpg

Power wheelchairs are also powered mobility devices, but they operate a lot differently than scooters. In my experience, people don't usually refer to them as "electric wheelchairs". Power wheelchair have much more sophisticated, computerized controllers. My DD's, for example has 4 different modes that can have 12-14 different things set (it's late, I can't think of the right term). The driving device attached to the controller depends on the needs and skills of the person using it. The most common is a joystick of some type, but it could be controlled by a head array (a head rest with control switches built in) or even a sip and puff (a type of switch that operates with a device similar to a straw). A power wheelchair has to be set up for the individual who will use it, so you can't just rent one unless you already own one and provide all the set-up instructions to the company. It takes more skill and practice to use a power wheelchair than an ecv and most people who use power wheelchairs either can't walk or walk with so much difficulty that they really can't get around without their power wheelchair. The seat might be pretty simple or very specialized, based on positioning needs. Most people driving power wheelchairs are experienced with having them transported in vans or buses (power wheelchairs don't come apart and can only be transported in a wheelchair lift van or bus. Here's a common power wheelchair.
http://www.invacare.com/images/product_catalog/base080/WB3001001.jpg
Some wheelchairs resemble ecvs in the way the wheels are arranged (and maybe the seat looks a little like an ecv), but they are power wheelchairs. The main thing you will notice that tells you it is a wheelchair is the controller. Here's one of those type of wheelchairs (I'm sorry, Lisa. I did get a Jazzy picture, but I couldn't remember what model you had.):
http://www.pridemobility.com/images/Jazzy/1115/Jazzy_1115_green_200.jpg

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Sue, I greatly appreciate your detailed explanations of mobility devices. Thank you :)


Talking Hands... I do apologise greatly for your past experiences with our Bus system, but I do want to let you know that the majority of us drivers are not like that at all. Myself, and all the drivers I know, are always doing our best to create the magic in any way possible.

[Talking Hands]

Sue I think the easiest way to distinguish is if it has a controller ( some don't but those are few) on the arm and nothing out front it is a power wheelchair. If it has a tiller in front it is a scooter.
My Jazzy is the 1103. A mini Jazzy. Very similar to the one you showed but not quite.


Tyler, I hope I meet you on one of my trips. Oh I never refuse the searbelt. I may refuse to back up a ramp but never the seatbelt.

[SueM in MN]

The links to the chair similar to Lisa's chair and the ecv disappeared! I tried to pick a picture where you could see the controller. I guess Pride Mobility links don't stay put.

Any way, if it has a tiller, it's almost always an ecv. There is a type of power base that can be added to a manual chair that has a front tiller.
A power wheelchair will almost always have a controller off to the side even if the person is using a head array, switch, or sip and puff. Those are access devices for the controller.

[WorknFires]

Wow! I've learned so much! I can't imagine someone being so rude as to not vacate the section designed for the chairs and/or scooters but unforntuately there are rude people in this world even at the happiest place on earth. I was wondering how many w/c or scooters does each bus have room for?
I'm fighting with my hubby who's having back surgery next week about renting a push wheelchair or scooter for our trip in 43 days. He (typical male) feels he'll be "FINE" by then regardless that the doctor has told him either use a chair or take a break in the afternoon, which I know he won't do. My 65 year old mother feels that she would benefit (i.e. last longer) if she were able to alternate riding and walking with him so I feel strongly that we'll be renting a chair. I don't mind pushing either of them and feel it will be easier for transportation and storage reasons to get the standard push chair altho I'm sure they would prefer the scooter so as not to "inconvenience" me.
Also, since both of them will be able to stand in line, I'd hate for someone to "borrow" my rented wheel chair from the stroller section while we're in an attraction. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanx In Adv, Cheryl

[Andrew Bichard]

Tyler,

A few comments on Wheelchair loading onto ramp buses.

My electric wheelchair is a rear wheel dive model with front casters. Because of this I can hold a perfect line when going forward at any speed and any power setting. It is not as easy in reverse. I have no problems a low speed settings on flat floors. If there is even the slightest cross fall (from left to right) I tend to turn unpredictably when reversing at low power. To get up a steep ramp I have to use full power, which I cannot do in reverse. I have anti tip wheels at the back so I *cannot* tip over backwards.

Unless the ramp is near flat, I cannot reverse onto a bus unless someone 'steers' me by holding my footrests. If I am on the lowest power setting I cannot get up theramp without someone pushing as well. If I go on foreward I can manage on my own, though I have to take a run at the ramp on full power if the ramp is steep. I have no problem if the bus pulls up at a curb, because the ram is relatively flat. I have a problem where there is no curb (as at Animal Kingdom) and the ramp is much steeper. Disney needs a few portable ramp extensions at stops with no curbs to make the ramps longer, and therefore less steep.

You hint that there may have been a incident whith a guest tipping his or her power chair over backwards. Had such an incident happened, would it have happened at a stop with a curb, or without one?

I am surprised about Disney's polict regarding manual chairs. I have *never* tipped over backwards in my power wheelchair, though I *have* done so in my manual. Given free choice I would therefor go up ramps foreward in my powerchair and reverse up them in my manual.

Disney should beware of making rules without considering the individual. This is especially true of the disabled.

Andrew

[SueM in MN]

Andrew, I was going to cover just that information in Mobility Devices, Part 2, or why Lisa's Chair doesn't Like to Go up Backwards, so you have saved me doing the rear wheel drive power wheelchair part with your excellent explanation.

I think WDW needs to understand that all mobility devices are not the same. They operate and act very differently and need to be treated differently.

When you look at an ecv, http://www.pridemobility.com/Products/SCOOTER/Vic2002_Blue4whl_110x92.jpg
many of them have one wheel in front and some have 2. What they have in common is that the front wheel is in front of the whole vehicle and your feet. The driving wheels are in the back and almost all the weight is in the back. They are not fitted to the individual, you pretty much buy or rent one as is, like buying a pair of shoes at the store. It would be very possible for an ecv to be unbalanced - they are quite long with all the weight in the back.

A power wheelchair is much like having a pair of shoes custom fitted to you. They take a lot of measurements and put some standard pieces together to make a chair that fits the parson. The wheels are much closer together than an ecv. The footrests are usually in front of the wheels and the front wheels swivel freely. As Andrew said, going forwards, you can keep the front wheels going straight, going backwards, not so easy. The weight is distributed much more evenly over all the wheels, so they are not really "back-heavy" like an ecv is. As Andrew mentioned, they have antitip wheels in the back. A power wheelchair is also very heavy; my DD's is over 300 pound (sorry Andrew, too early for conversions to metric) without her in it, so, no matter how heavy the person using it is, it's unlikely the wheelchair will be unbalanced. http://www.invacare.com/images/product_catalog/base080/WB3001001.jpg

The design of Lisa's wheelchair is called a mid-wheel design (thanks for the model number, I think I got the right one). http://www.walkers-wheelchairs.com/jazzy%20graphics/1103_jazzy_sm.jpg
The main advantage of those wheelchairs is that they are very easy to turn and manouver. The driving wheels are right under the seat, so almost all the weight is on those wheels, making it very stable. She also has 3 sets of wheels, but look at the back set of wheels. They are on swivels like the front wheels on a rear wheel drive wheelchair. If she tries to back, it is almost impossible to keep those rear wheels going in a straight line. That's why her wheelchair should not be backed up a ramp.

[Talking Hands]

Sue,
You hit the problem right on the head. With my power wheelchair the back wheels swivel making backing an impossible task. Whoever is making these policies are not looking at the weelchairs and are making sweeping rules without proper knowledge.

[Andrew Bichard]

Sue,

No-one can argue with the fact that there are an infinite variety of powerchair designs, all with different handling characteristics.

Each of us knows our own chair and how it handles best, and we should have some say in how best we are loaded onto a bus. Disney obviously has to make its own safety rules, but it should take into account these differences.

If say, a driver insisted I reverse onto a bus, despite my protestations that it was safer for me to go forward, and I then fell off the side of the ramp, I might consider Disney liable for my injuries.

Andrew

PS

One other important difference between a scooter and a power chair like mine, Lisas or yours is that a scooter steers with handlebars connected to the front wheels. The scooter goes whichever way you point the front wheel or wheels and you have very positive steering control.

A power wheelchair has two powered wheels with separate motors, invidually controlled, which do the driving *and* the steering. They also have two (or four ion Lisa's chair) caster wheels which do nothing except keep the other end off the ground. Power wheelchairs steer by making one side go faster than the other. I find it very difficult to control my direction going backwards especially over uneven ground. The fact that I have no mirrors, and that my disability restricts my ability to look over my shoulder does not help. As you say, the fact that powerchairs have a much shorter wheelbase than a scooter also makes them less directionally stable especially in reverse. Wheelchairs are designed primarily for indoor manoevreability with the ability to turn in their own length (though most powerchairs are rugged enough for outdoor use and mine is highway legal in the UK).

One other problem with a powerchair occurs when you come to a full stop and then move off again in reverse. In this instance the caster wheels have to turn 180 degrees. This is no problem when you have plenty of space to spare, but in a confined space, such as a narrow bus ramp with raised edgesyou can have problems. No problem if you can sweep up the ramp in one go without stopping. But if you run out of steam half way up and the chair rolls back a few inches, the casters turn sideways and you end up unable to move up or down! This is another reason I like to go up ramps forwards travelling briskly, gather than reversing slowly and stalling halfway up.

I also have the advantage on my own chair of powered seat tilt, which allows me to tilt backwards to remain upright when going down steep slopes. It also alows me to shift my weight backwards towards the rear wheels when I heed a little extra grip. Not every chair has this facility.

As well as the scooters and powerchairs you have illustrated, I have also seen front wheel drive scooters with the motor over the front wheel, Powerchairs with the drive wheels at the front and casters at the rear, various power add-ons to manual chairs and most recently a curious powerchair/scooter hybrid too difficult to describe.

[Nanajo1]

It would be interesting to find out who, if anyone, Disney consults with when making these type of decisions for the H/P community. It is obvious that no one with any know how was involved in the roll-in shower design. Again it is lumping all H/P in one size fits all solution. I am appreciative of how assessible WDW is (I try to go often as I can!) but there is room for improvement.

[SueM in MN]

I also wonder who is deciding the rules and what sort of knowledge base they have.

The main point I was trying to make is that lumping power wheelchairs together with scooters is a big mistake.
I don't know about the products available outside the US, but in the US, there are 2 common types of power wheelchairs(rear drive and mid-wheel drive) and rear wheel drive scooters will be most common. And any rear wheel drive will have a lot in common with another rear drive wheelchair. So I was doing some educational posts for Tyler. I hope that you are not feeling too overwhelmed, Tyler. When we find someone who expresses an interest, we try to educate them.

Like Lisa and Andrew mentioned, a person who drives a power wheelchair, is the best judge of what it can and can't do and under what circumstances. I think one of WDW's assumptions may be that everyone driving a mobility device is in-experienced. That might be true for some people who are using ecvs, but you are unlikely to find any in-experienced power wheelchair users at WDW.
If say, a driver insisted I reverse onto a bus, despite my protestations that it was safer for me to go forward, and I then fell off the side of the ramp, I might consider Disney liable for my injuries.
I hope it never gets to that, but if necessary, I would be honored to be a witness in your behalf.

[CdnDisneyNut]

On my resent trip I had problems with one of the Nova LFS (low floor/Kneeling) buses. I had a rental scooter from an off site vendor. The bus that had arrived after a day at Epcot wer one of the low floor buses. When I attempted to back up the scotter up the the ramp on the bus: the scooter did not have enough power to get on the ramp. With the help of the driver, myself (off the scooter) and fellow passenger we were able to get it on the ramp and onto the the bus. Do not know if it was the bus itself or the battery condition (charge needle was almost on the yellow). The scooter was able to get off the bus and back my room without any problem. Later in the I encounter the same type of bus. I attempted to back the scooter onto the bus however the CM told me to 'drive it' in. I had no problem what so ever. Has Disney changed their policy on loading instuctions on the the LFS buses.

[Talking Hands]

No, they have not but most drivers have the good sense to listen to you when you tell them it won't work with your equipment. There could have been nothing wrong with your ECV. Many ECVs are set to use 3/4 power when backing and this may not be enough to back up a ramp.
I had a big problem with one driver who would not listen to me and was very rude and degrading about it. When I insisted on speaking to the supervisor she was also condescending and kept claiming it was for my own safety. I didn't know putting me into a dangerous situation was for my own "safety". Plus she refused to remain facing me so I could speech read or to call an interpreter so I could understand her without her having to face me. I know it is disconcerting for hearing people to have a person like me staring at their face but it is necessary when you have a hearing loss no matter how slight.

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by CdnDisneyNut
When I attempted to back up the scotter up the the ramp on the bus: the scooter did not have enough power to get on the ramp. With the help of the driver, myself (off the scooter) and fellow passenger we were able to get it on the ramp and onto the the bus. Do not know if it was the bus itself or the battery condition (charge needle was almost on the yellow). The scooter was able to get off the bus and back my room without any problem. Later in the I encounter the same type of bus. I attempted to back the scooter onto the bus however the CM told me to 'drive it' in. I had no problem what so ever. Has Disney changed their policy on loading instuctions on the the LFS buses.

Our original policy with the Nova LFS was to allow guests to board the bus in any manner they felt most comfortable. For the typical rented scooter, most guests felt most comfortable driving it up normally.

However... a few months ago, there was a 'situation.' I'm not sure if legally I am allowed to discuss what happened, however, suffice to say, some changes were implemented. For about two weeks, all the Low Floor busses were deemed Non-Accessible busses, and were mostly used for Cast Shuttles and whatnot. Once everything was settled, Disney decided for Legal reasons to create a policy. The policy stated that all electric mobility devices have three options with the Low Floor bus and a stop without a curb.

[list=1]
Drive the vehicle into the bus in REVERSE.
Step out of the vehicle, and guide it up the ramp. (This may be done by anyone, except the bus driver)
Wait for a lift equipped bus.
[/list=1]

Drivers were not allowed to drive the low floor busses until they signed a statement to that effect. There was a big huge to-do about it when it happened. It's by no means a perfect policy, but it's something that had to be done for legal reasons.

[Talking Hands]

One other note. Because I am hard of hearing it is extremely difficult for me to hear a person speaking behind me clearly and understand them. For speech, I might as well be completely deaf in these situations. I know someone is speaking but what they are saying is anyone's guess. Therefore I cannot have someone to guide me from the back and warn me if the wheels are of track. Talk about driving blind. Scary.

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by Talking Hands
No, they have not but most drivers have the good sense to listen to you when you tell them it won't work with your equipment.

Unfortunetly, it's not quite as easy as that... All of our drivers were required to sign papers and whatnot on the boarding policy, and could potentially get into serious trouble for violating such policies. Although there are drivers out there who will allow an electric mobility device to board in forward (for either laziness on enforcing the policy, or because in thier judgement, forward is best), they are breaking company policy, and there are such drivers that do not wish to do so. They should not be penalized for following the company policy... UNLESS they are less than Disney about it.

[SueM in MN]

Although there are drivers out there who will allow an electric mobility device to board in forward (for either laziness on enforcing the policy, or because in thier judgement, forward is best), they are breaking company policy, and there are such drivers that do not wish to do so.

That's too bad; it will put drivers in the position of sometimes having to choose between what is safest (for that person) and what is policy. For some people, going on forwards is best with a ramp (and safest). If there was an "incident" with someone going on forwards, I'm sure there will be an "incident" sooner or later with someone backing on. Since legal department often swing all one way instead of using common sense, the policy then will probably change to "all board forward".
We are thinking of bringing DD's power wheelchair on our next WDW trip for the first time. I just hope we don't end up with one of the ramp buses because backing up the long ramp will probably not be an option - and she can't get out of her wheelchair for someone else to drive it up for her, so we'll be waiting for the lift equipped bus. I wonder what other places that use these buses do?

[Andrew Bichard]

Originally posted by Chip 'n Dale Express
Disney decided for Legal reasons to create a policy. The policy stated that all electric mobility devices have three options with the Low Floor bus and a stop without a curb.

[list=1]
Drive the vehicle into the bus in REVERSE.
Step out of the vehicle, and guide it up the ramp. (This may be done by anyone, except the bus driver)
Wait for a lift equipped bus.
[/list=1]

Drivers were not allowed to drive the low floor busses until they signed a statement to that effect. There was a big huge to-do about it when it happened. It's by no means a perfect policy, but it's something that had to be done for legal reasons.

As I stated in an earlier post, I have a problem getting on to low floor bussses with my electric wheelchair (not an ECV) in two situations:

1) reversing, when I cannot hold a straight line and
2) going forward up an excessively steep ramp, such as where there is no curb

Apparently, Disney has rejected the option of providing secondary loading ramps at curbless locations such as park entrances (short ramps rising 5 or 6 inches, the usual height of a curb.

In the short term, I see no problem waiting for a regular lift equipped bus, but in the long term, as a greater proportion of lift equipped buses get phased out, Disney should expect challenges under ADA that insufficient provision is being made for wheelchair users.

I find it sad that Disney is attempting to solve a problem regarding wheelchair access with lawyers rather than engineers. I have always regarded Disney as a company that was 'disabled friendly', making provision that was always ahead of ADA minimum standards. In this respect at least, they are putting cost saving and liability avoidance ahead of disabled provision and are now complying only with the letter, not the spirit of ADA.

Andrew

[Talking Hands]

You know Tyler I don't give too hoots what a driver had to sign when it comes to MY SAFETY. I will refuse to back up a ramped bus and they can figure out how not to inconveninece me. And believe me I will be screaming if I miss shows due to this policy. It is out and out discrimination and stupidity. Discrimination in that I will have to wait for another bus if I do not comply and risk MY SAFETY by backing up a ramp with no control and no ability to get guidance due to my hearing loss. Stupidity because to lump all power wheelchairs into one category is just plain stupid.
I don't want to hear that this policy is for my safety because it ISN'T SAFE AT ALL in my particular type of wheelchair. As far as I am concerned the ramp buses are inaccessible under current policies and Disney has no business claiming they are.
My chair will not flip backwards but it will veer off the ramp if run backwards. If that isn't unsafe I don't know what is. I've already been injured once due to the stupidity of a driver. It will never happen again!
I do see a problem waiting for a second lift equipped bus when I have one show per day of each show in the interpreted parks and if I miss it I don't get to see it again until the next day it is shown or normally until my next trip. On my trip in late June I missed Jungle Cruise and Diamond Horseshoe because of problems with the bus transportation. I had stayed an extra day to do them. Guess what. I was out of luck and had to wait until August.

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Lisa, (& all)

I understand that you are frustrated with Disney's current policy, however, please be aware that us drivers have no say in it. We simply do as we are told. I am not saying I agree with this, I am just simply communicating what Disney is telling us. Once again, I understand your frustration about it, but us drivers have No Control over this issue, and taking frustration out on the driver will do no good except waste valuable time and energy.

What I would suggest, is getting in contact with Disney Transport yourself, and explaining to them your situation. Perhaps by educating the people who do have control over the issue, we can find a resolution to this problem. Coming from a guest who is an more of an expert in such matters would have more of a affect and influence on them, than from myself, of whom they are already tired of hearing all my many issues that I keep bringing up.

[SueM in MN]

Tyler, do you have an address that we can contact (snail mail and email)?
I realize that you and the other drivers are in a "Catch 22". If you do what policy says, you will be inconveniencing and possibly be putting some guests at risk. If you don't follow policy, you will be disciplined for not following policy.
i think those of us who know what the problems are need to contact WDW Transportation and let them know that "One size fits all", fits no one.

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Sue...

Yes, for those interested, I will send (via PM) desired contact information. :D

[Talking Hands]

Actually I have spoken to a supervisor and was only belittled. I have written DIsney and not had the courtesy of a reply. My complaints fall in "deaf" ears. I hate that term because it is degrading to the Deaf community. Actually often the Deaf understand better than the hearing who refuse to listen.
I guess the only way I will be heard is to be injured again. Btw I was injured before because a bus driver tried to force my power wheelchair up the ramp with me in it and it started to go off the side. He used my chair back to push on and injured my back and arm. It was sloughed off. I will not be injured again by stupidity! I will do what is in my best interest as far as safety is concerned. Transportation is the only area at Disney that is subpar as far as access is concerned. Elsewhere it is terrific.

[Talking Hands]

I would like that address. Maybe they will have the courtesy to reply.

[cupcake]

The problem I had on a bus was when people would not get out of the first flipup seat area, and I needed that space because there were other people standing and blocking where I needed to go. The driver was totally silent about what to do, I had hoped he would be more helpful. I could not believe people did not even try to get out of the way. Subsequent drivers were, however, very nice.

On the upside, I did find out that you can request a specific type of bus from your resort or guest services at a park. I did this to get the wider bus after the bad 1st experience mentioned above. I checked with the concierge (Swan) upon the suggestion of another guest I met on a boat, and with 45 minutes notice, there was the bus. But I did go on the regular busses with lifts later and it was fine for me.

Asking for the bus type of your choice might be worth a try for those who need specific types of accessibility.

The suggestion for newer ECV users to use turtle speed when doing more delicate steering or backing up is also very solid. Even though you can go slow with the tiller on rabbit speed, you get lots more control on turtle.

Cupcake

[dclfun]

I've had so many horrible experiences with the WDW busses that I can't even begin to list them all. I will say that I've experienced EXACTLY what Lisa was talking about - missing a show due to having to wait for another bus. My daughters and I were headed to Epcot from AKL when a lift bus driver refused to board me because he claimed he couldn't see my back wheels. He said I'd need the ramp bus. Now, I can't back up a ramp OR lift bus because I have a ventilator behind my chair and I refuse on a lift bus to get my breathing tubes in the way of the lift, possibly killing me. On a ramp bus, since I have a Permobil chair which the manufacturer stated CANNOT back up, but should go forward when boarding any vehicle, I'm not going to back up. I've had my kneecap broken on a lift bus once when the driver didn't have the lift down correctly on the sidewalk ( I was thrown underneath the bus as he raised the lift which was half off/half on the sidewalk and had to be removed by the fire dept), been argued with about how to board, etc. I've spoken to a supervisor who told me he'd write in the driver's "book" that I'm an exception to their rules, but I question whether this can even be done, and if so, what driver is going to know this? Frankly, I refuse to be killed because of Disney policy. I know how to drive my chair safely. I'm tired of arguing and tired of missing shows and reservations during every trip, tired of busses arriving with broken lifts, tired of waiting longer than other guests. ---Kathy

[Talking Hands]

Kathy,
My sweet husband has said as long as he is with me he is willing to drive me and not have me on the buses. Of course then I have to be on his schedule but maybe that is better than being injured because of an unsafe policy.
BTW one of our students has a Permobile. It is a really awesome chair. If I had to get rid of my Jazzy that is the one I would want.

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Just an update... I haven't forgotten about this and all... I've been talking to a few people, and haven't gotten the answers that I want quite yet. I have a few more contacts to look into, its just a matter of scheduling conflicts. (I work mornings at Epcot/Studios, they work nights at MK)

One little addendum... Disney is starting to allow guests to board in forward ONLY if there is a raised curb at the bus stop.

As for writing a letter... I was hoping to get you a more direct address, but I was informed that all guest communications must go through the central communcations office. From there, it will be forwarded to the appropriate department. If you want a reply, or to be contact, please be sure to include all pertinant contact information in all communications. This includes name, address, phone, email, and best times to contact. I seem to have misplaced the paper I had written that down on, but I'm sure it's readily available here on the Dis. I will find it later when I am more awake, and post it.

[Talking Hands]

Well mine won't be able to board a ramped bus if there is not a curb. The ramp is too steep.

[SueM in MN]

Disney is starting to allow guests to board in forward ONLY if there is a raised curb at the bus stop.
The lack of raised curbs at WDW seems to be the biggest problem. For the buses with lifts, not having a raised curb is an advantage. The buses with ramps are designed to be used with raised curbs, because that's generally what city bus stops have. I know they use those ramped buses successfully in cities, but the big difference is that the cities have raised curbs at the bus stops and WDW has a lot of flat surfaces.

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by SueM in MN
The lack of raised curbs at WDW seems to be the biggest problem.

I would tend to agree... and the frustrating part is that Disney is intentionally building curbless load zones, for some obscure reason that I have not been able to figure out. Curbs help with ease of entry/exit... they look better, and they create a solid definition of the load zone, which then means I dont have guests standing out in the middle of the road about to be run over.

Anyhoo, I'm late for work... off I go.

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Okay... I have some good news.

I got into a discussion today with a few other managers, along with "Safety One", our safety team leader. It took multiple tries to explain the situations, and I'm still not quite sure they fully understood where I was coming from, and what I was talking about. (This is why y'all really need to write those letters... not to critisize or complain, but rather to EDUCATE... because it's needed!!!) After much debating and trying to explain how not all mobility devices and/or guests are able to back up onto a ramp, they came up with a compromise.

The following result is NOT official... however, it did come from a Guest Service Managers mouth, along with Safety One. I'm going to press on harder to see if I can get it to become an official policy.

When at a bus load zone that does not have a curb, if the guest is unable for whatever reason to back up the ramp of the low floor bus, they may drive up in forward under the condition that a Family member walks up directly behind them to ensure that they do not topple over. It must be a family member (or friend) - the bus driver cannot do this. It is still greatly preferred, recommended, and asked that the guest go up in reverse. This new addendum is only a last resort, and like I said before, is not official.

I'll keep you updated on any more progress.

[SueM in MN]

Thanks, Tyler. Once you have an address for us, I'll summarize all the Basic ecv/power wheelchair 101 information that people posted in this thread to try to explain things.

[Talking Hands]

Tyler what are they going to do about those of us who travel alone? I value my independence and do not always run off the parks witha companion. They need to got it through their heads that not all people using power wheelchairs are accompanied by other people. It is the fact that we have a power wheelchair that allows us to continue being independent and do things on our own.
For instance I went to the grocery store today. Used my wheelchair. No one went with me. Before the power wheelchair someone wouldhave gone with me to help and make sure I didn't fall. I like doing my own thing without a companion.

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by Talking Hands
Tyler what are they going to do about those of us who travel alone? I value my independence and do not always run off the parks witha companion. They need to got it through their heads that not all people using power wheelchairs are accompanied by other people.

Indeed, not everyone at WDW travels with companions... whether they use a power wheelchair or not. I did ask about what to do if they don't have someone with them... and it was stressed that as a driver, I must remain at the control box at all times. They suggested calling a manager for that particular situation, however, I don't see that as being very effective. I'm wondering if another CM could assist. Like I said, I'm still working on this for y'all... so, I will see what more I can dig up. Please be patient with me, I don't often get to see the people I need to see since we work different schedules.

[Mazzy]

As someone who will be using a scooter for the first time this trip, I would just like to say a BIG THANKYOU to you Tyler, for taking the time to try and find a solution to the problems with using the buses. To make time to speak to your colleages about this is very much appreciated - by myself, and I'm sure, by everyone on the DISabilities Board. Thank you - you're a Great Guy! :D

[Leia's Mom]

I just wanted to reiterate the thank you. A bit of background. . .

I have lived my life with wheelchairs. No, not mine. My father was in a wheelchair until his death. He had both of his legs amputated due to a military injury. My sister and I were his legs. We rarely traveled anywhere. It was simply not feasible.

My dad died many years ago, but I was faced again with a wheelchair situation when my mother had a stroke at the age of 48. My mom loved to travel, and I was not about to let her stop because of her disability.

I was terrified about taking her to Disney last year. I must say, though, that the bus drivers were (generally) fantastic. She was quite nervous about the lifts, but the drivers were patient and took all the necessary time with her. Sure it was frustrating to not be able to get on every bus we wanted. Yes, sometimes we were a little late (not such a big deal for us since she has no hearing problems). However, I was so grateful of the changes since my dad was wheelchair bound.

Yes, there are still problems to be worked through. Yes, those with physical challenges should expect to have all the accessibility of any other person. However, I do have to say thank you for doing all that you can to make our trips easier.

Next year is the cruise. Keep your fingers crossed that it goes as well as Disney did. . .

[SueM in MN]

seems like a good time to bump this one.

[ditzy]

Originally posted by Talking Hands
Tyler
Please note that the term Electric Convenience Vehicle is offensive to many who use ECVs. A better term is electric conveyance vehicle. The term convenience has distinct implications as far as attitude towards those who must use them. (ie iit is a convenience not a need)

At some point someone assumed that the "C" in ECV stood for convenience rather than conveyance.