FYI point value according to those who rent......

[AnnK]

I was reading a post over on the budget board. This is a partial quote from the post.

"I agree with the last post. Even if I had the money to spend $720 a night on a room, I wouldn't! I've found ways to get deluxe and pay for value(renting points for example)"


So now our rooms are renting for the same as a VALUE RESORT? ( All-stars?) C'mon folks don't GIVE your points away to strangers! We do give points away to friends, I can even see selling to a fellow DVC at a cheaper rate, but when the posters on the other boards are buying our rooms for the same price as All-Stars something is wrong.

[PamOKW]

As long as members rent based on a per point cost and only rent Su-Th, then the rates will be low. Even at $10 per point studios will cost $80-$140 per day based on resort and season (not including Premier Season). Checking in Sunday and out Friday would run $400 at OKW in Adventure or Choice season. Checking in Friday and out Wednesday would run $640 ($660 in Choice). Renting 5 nights from Disney at OKW in Value Season would be $1,355.

Members are providing a way for people to do DVC cheap. They are also using the weekday advantage. I don't see the upside for members in any of this. It seems as if making weekday and weekends even would be a big help. I'd rather compete with DVC folks within drive distance who are making long weekends than with non-DVC members who are renting out all the weeks leaving members with a much harder time to book a full week (including weekends).

Sure the points are being given away cheap. If you are faced with getting some cash versus getting nothing I could see it. But, why just, as Ann says, give your points away to strangers? Why not make plans to use these points for your own vacations. If not Disney, then any of the other programs. Or let your own friends and family use them? It doesn't make sense to me either.

[Peterd]

I agree. I think the renters are really under-charging for their points. At $10 per point, you are charging what it would cost at the All-Stars without the 11% tax, and much less than at the moderate resorts. I can see if you're gonna lose them, and can't bank them. People can do what they want with their points, but what's wrong with charging instead of a per pt fee, a per night fee? The BW and Okw studio average about $225-300 per night + tax. Why not rent the rooms for half price, say 110 to 150 per night? That would still be less than the moderates. How could someone complain about that? no tax, and half price.
Look at the rent/trade board. The word's out. Someone posts points for rent, and immediatly gets 7 replies. You would think this would raise the price.
I know it would be impossible to find out, but I wonder when the Resorts are sold out between the 7 and 11 month window, How many non-DVC renters at 10 per pt are staying there? Getting the 25% discount on rooms is getting harder and harder to find. Even with the discount, a two bedroom would cost me close to $500 per night, while the non-DVC renter pays $240.
Again, I don't care what anyone charges for their points. People could give them away if they wanted. I've purchased someone's resv. to add to resv. we already had on the boards at half price of what the rooms would have cost me if I paid cash. We felt pretty lucky to get them. I just think people are short-changing themselves.

[PamOKW]

The really nice thing is when someone is paying a bargain rate to stay at a DVC resort but had their reservation made at 11 months, they will get the first choice of a room request over a member.

I know everyone says that's tough and members can do whatever they want with their points but it still stinks. ;)

Not to generalize on member vs. non-member abuse of rooms but someone who is looking for the rock bottom cheapest way to do things will not have much of a problem with adding 1 or 2 (or 3?) extra folks into that bargain room. I'm not saying every renter will do this or every member will not, I just think the odds increase.

There was a special on Spring Breaks. They mentioned how in Panama City kids rent a room at Best Western and then have 10 stay in it. This is exactly what I want to see monitored from happening at DVC. A college kid rents a studio for $80 bucks a night and splits it with 8 friends. Not beyond the realm of possibility.

[AnnK]

Letting someone rent a studio for less than a room at All- Star is unbelieveable.
I agree with Pam that someone renting is more likely to only want a Sunday through Thursday night, since they are paying per point and will not want to pay the higher point cost for the weekend.
I too would prefer to change the point values, even if it makes it so that a DVC member who lives nearby can stay for more long weekends, better that then members fighting non-members for rooms all week, when of course we also use less points. Also, how many weekends could the nearby DVC member take? They only have so many points to use per year.
Peter has a point, if you look at the rent/trade the points are being scooped up, I would say it's simply becasue anyone would rather have a room at any of the DVC resorts for such low prices.I know and agree that they are your points and you can do with them as you want, but it's really upsetting that people can now get a room at BWV, OKW or VWL for less than they would pay to stay at All-Star. Outrageous really......

[Firefighter Mickey]

Now, in addition to just being down on renters in general, we've added the twist that we should be coming down on renters because they rent the points too cheaply and they cause excess wear and tear on the resort.

What can we collectively come up with next?

[Stephen]

I originally found this site hoping to find other DVC members with whom I could "share" points with. I will need a few extra points to round out a ressie for a family re-union next summer and thought if I could find the rest of you, I could pick up some extra points. Well, I found you, and I was right.

I like the idea of selling some of my extra points, when I have them, to help other DVC members. And likewise, being able to buy them when I am a little short for that BIG vacation. For these purposes, $10 seems fair. I don't have a problem paying $10, nor would I charge other DVC members more than $10. But, like many of you have pointed out, non DVC members are staying at deluxe resorts for value prices because we are selling our points to these folks. This becomes particularly frustrating when we can't get our ressies because of non member reservations, even though, practically speaking, it is just like the member was staying.

SHARE, SELL, RENT YOUR POINTS TO YOUR DVC BROTHERS AND SISTERS! That's right. Let's try and restrict our sale of points to other DVC members. At least at the $10 rate. Can we establish another rate for non-members when we have no other choice but to sell to them?

Just like the guy in the quote said, he found a way to pay value and get deluxe. It is not his fault. We should not be selling to him (unless we are in dire straits and need to unload the points). Wouldn't you rather be selling or renting to another DVC member?

[Peterd]

To say some are down on renters is incorrect, Like stated above, we could care less if you GIVE your' points away. Some were just saying you're giving your points away, way to cheap.
It's nice, along with the All-star prices, these people also get all the DVC perks. Discounts at Restraunts, free movie rentals etc...
If you don't agree, keep selling for $10 per point.
I own at both BW and Okw, and I don't think it's right for an Okw owner who wants to try out the BW or vice versa, and can't get in because a non-member/non-family has the room at a better rate than any DVCer could ever get.
To anyone who has a lot of points,I know in reality, if you didn't rent out, you would probably be in the room anyway. Maybe, you would stay in a Two-bedroom or grand villa, and wouldn't take up 10 studios for five nights with the 600 +points you own. It seems more rooms are going to more non members lately, instead of members.

[wvjules]

I understand that DVC members pay a lot for their membership and value their points. I am not a member, nor can I afford it. I've never taken a vacation in my life and plan on taking my 6 year old daughter to WDW for her birthday. I am a single mother trying to make a nice vacation on a very limited budget. If I can find a way to cut costs, you bet I'm going to try it. However, you all obviously have a lot more money than I do and if you can't use your points and they are available when a non-member could use them, then what's the harm in someone less wealthy than yourselves being able to purchase your points. You all are sounding like a bunch of spoiled brats in grade school.

[Bumpy]

WVjules,
I personally think you are way out of line with your reasoning. You assume that every DVC member is wealthy and that is not the case. I am willing to bet that there are many DVC people who have even less money than you. I dont know how you dare calling someone a spoiled brat for wanting a return on their money invested. You are not the one who makes a commitment for 40 plus years and why should you reep the benefits at a cheaper rate than DVC people. People can do what ever they wish with their own points but the point that is being made is that non DVC members are getting benefits that we dont even get. Under your reasoning I should be able to use your car for say 1.00 dollar a day even though you are paying much more for that ownership between financing and insurance and maintance. But if your not going to use it you mine as well give it away to someone else less fortunate right. Spoiled brats! Geesh now I have heard it all!

[Peggy Sue]

wvjules--- I normally don't enter too many of these debates, but as a DVC member you hit a raw nerve with your response.

We are not "a bunch of spoiled brats in grade school" and we all have financial struggles and responsibilities just like the next guy. We are not all rolling in buckets of cash..the majority of us work hard for our money and we have individually made the decision to invest in our future vacations with DVC. I take exection to your statement.."However, you all obviously have a lot more money than I do and if you can't use your points and they are available when a non-member could use them, then what's the harm in someone less wealthy than yourselves being able to purchase your points."

As a DVC member, I think Ann and Pam have made some very valid points about individuals selling their points below what the market will bear and what we as members have to pay for a room at a DVC resort when we don't use our points. As a collective group, it is not our responsiblity to make sure we offer up our points at a low cost so those "less wealthy" can enjoy the DVC resorts. IMHO that is just an absurd statement to make!

If you're selling your DVC points, and the market will bear a higher price per point, I say go for it! Why should you offer a deluxe villa cheaper than the all star resorts! I know if the day ever comes that we decide we need to sell a few points that we might not be able to use, I will be looking for the best bang for my investment dollar and not worrying that someone "less wealthy" than I can enjoy the DVC resorts.

Have a wonderful day!

[wvjules]

I was not implying that someone should 'give' their points to a non-member or anyone for that matter. However, isn't up to the seller's discretion to sell the points for whatever he/she wants and not have to worry about what the other DVC members are doing with their points?

As for having more money than I do, I'm sure some of you do, some of you don't. For jumping to conclusions about financials of any member, I apologize.

I'm just getting frustrated trying to plan this vacation.

If I offended anyone, please accept my apologies.

[POLLY ANN]

wvjules, if you need help planning your vacation, there are people here with a "wealth" of knowledge. (pun intended! LOL)

Go to the Budget Board, for example, you will find a TON of information there to go to Disney on a shoestring budget. I personally like to read the Trip Reports board to see how other people spend their days in the parks.

The Restaurant Board or the Resorts board are also good ones to help in finding good food and nice hotels. I know how overwhelming it feels to plan an itinerary, especially to Disney. You want to make sure the trip is extra special for all involved and don't want to miss anything.

You can even ask a question here, I know someone will help you. ;)

formerly POLLYANNA35 http://a108.g.akamaitech.net/7/108/24/954ec432f3570d/disney.go.com/disneyvacationclub/images/members/rn_pic_1.jpg
http://www.wdwinfo.com/sites/family/dvcis.gif

DVC Member since 1995

[Dean]

First, you guys convinced me, I am officially raising my price to $12 pp. That is when I get more points next year since as they're all gone now.

Second, wvjules, though off base on the wealth thing (she already apologized) is correct in that there's no reason non members shouldn't have the option to rent also. In talking to people over the last few years about renting out some of my points, I've had a lot more difficulty dealing with members than non members. Offers and counter offers seem to be far more common when a member contacts me for points rental possiblities. The truth is that most people I hear from about wanting to rent (members and non members) are very nice people but the idea that members are easier to deal with and will take better care of the resort just isn't supported in my limited experience of dealing with both groups.

Sure there's the possiblity of the spring break type crowd with members and non members alike. I suspect that relatives of members are far more likely to do this than someone renting from a member but who knows for certain.

Peterd, I think to say some are down on renters and those that rent their points is right on target, not everyone, but some are. The basic points structure has certain risks involved. Currently those risks include the Sun-Fri usage and the chance that those that are enterprising and plan ahead will get all the best rooms at the best times (GV, Boardwalk, Christmas, Dec, etc).

I'm surprised to see several people promoting evening out the points though I personally would have thought DVC would have done this last year or this one. Remember if they evenout out too much, weekend usage will go way up. A major shift of the points structure may take some other change to go with it. Something like giving those that want to book a week a higher priority or allowing them to book earlier. Or requiring the entire weekday/weekend block to go together. Or at least a 3 day minimum or some other ploy to keep people from booking just the weekends. Other timeshares I've seen that have a points structure would have weekends about 50% higher but of course, they're not at WDW. I'd suspect that about 60-80% more for weekend nights would be about right. I'm sure that DVC would like to change the points and has for a couple of years but with the backlash last time and the survey, they have been reluctant to unless they absolutely must. Now I'm not saying all of the thoughts above fit well into the legal paperwork, some probably don't but just to get people thinking there with any change may come some negatives as well as hopefully positives. Remember this is only my experience and opinion which with a dollar might get you a cup of coffee.

Dean

[danacara]

Hi all,
I'm a non DVC member. I rented points and stayed at BWV in January. The market says $10 per point. You can raise your price to $12, $14, whatever, but there will be someone to undercut you at $10 in the current market. Please note that potential rentees on the rent/trade board are getting responses from three or four potential point renters each time they inquire. If you don't like the price, then by all means collude and raise it, as this is a totally unregulated market. But don't moan about it on totally subjective ground (excess wear and tear on the carpets? non-DVC members getting free video rentals? I'm sure it's heartfelt when it's written, but reading this stuff on the board, you sound like a whiner). I definitely plan on renting points again in the future, and I don't expect to pay more than $10 unless the renters plan a mass price rise.
http://www.princeton.edu/~caragine/dormroom
Dorm Sweet Dorm

[Bigcat]

I have the right to rent my points if I want to...to anyone I want to. I will also try to get the most $ for my points!

It is a false argument to say that members can't get reservations because other members are renting out points. What difference should it make if I am in the room or someone who I rented to. I am not taking anything away from other members. They have the same reservation rights that I have.

Off-Site 2/92
Coronado Springs 11/98
Swan 3/00
MOWC 7/00
BWV 1/01
Hilton Head Isl DVC 3/01
BWV 11/01

[Peterd]

Bigcat, no one wants to be in your business sell your points for 5 bucks a point, we don't care. No one's going to force you to sell for more. If you don't like to read how others feel, don't read. How is it a false argument that if you rent out, other DVC members miss out? We own a decent amount of points, and usually reserve a two bedroom a couple times a year or a grand villa. I don't think you could find someone to rent the amount of points it would take to get a grand villa for two weeks at the BW. So if I were to rent my points, I would be renting out 10 or more studios for five days in a preferred view to non-members. I think this would be unfair to the other members. Again, I don't care what you do with your points. When I joined, I thought this was an exclusive club. I didn't realize that anyone could stay at our resort for a Quarter of the price, no dues, and you get benefits. I wish these boards were around then. I would have saved myself a lot of money.
Danacara, hello to you too, no one's whining here. Mentioning the DVC "perks", such as video rentals, discounts at restaurants, water parks,Fantasia gardens,DisneyQuest, and a few others, is just reminding others what "our" dues pay for. I like how you state how people will undercut someone's price, and how you EXPECT not to have to pay more than $10 per point. Good for you, you sound like a good bargain hunter. As for collusion for higher prices, everyone's an adult here. Everyone will do what's good for themselves. Don't worry, you can still get your rock bottom prices here. If the prices do rise, Don't worry, you can always get the All-Star for the same price. It's good to hear from some of the people who aren't members, I like to know how they think. Another good reason to rent to only members.

[Bumpy]

Peterd,
Very well put! I agree it is interesting to see how some are viewing the renting of points. I personally would not rent to anyone of these renters. there seems to be some sort of attitude that DVC members owe some great deal to non members. Yes this is a free country and you can rent at your own price , but if enough people understand that they are being taking advantage of they just might increase their price and increase the market. This worries non DVC members cause they would seriously loose out. That is why you see such resistance from the renters. But like you say if they dont like the price they can go back to staying at the all stars and recieve the appropriate accomadtions for their price. I really think the market would hold up just fine. We have some of the nicest resorts on WDW property and we need to start acting like it. All Stars cannot compare to OKW, WLV, Boardwalk. I dont think there is anything wrong with renting points but I think the price needs to increase to reflect the product.

[danacara]

If you could come up with a mechanism to encourage point collusion credibly, you could all raise your bottom line by a whole lot. For instance, if you encouraged point auctioning rather than complaining about the use of Ebay (the auctions invariably close higher than $10/point), or if you encouraged a "bidoff" where members with excess points could post and nonmembers submitted public bids for them by replying to the post (just another form of an auction). You could also attempt to decrease supply on the boards by requiring a long rentee-registration procedure or by having the DIS require the use of an escrow service, etc.
I think there is some misunderstanding about the way pricing works. $10 is not an arbitrarily low number chosen to insult DVC members and load up the resorts. $10 is the market equilibrium at which the renter and the rentee reach equal marginal utility levels. There is an economic reason that the price stands at $10. You can raise that price by decreasing the supply of points on the board or increasing demand, and under current Disney DVC policy, which allows guests and cannot really enforce rules against renters, that's about all you can do

[Bigcat]

peterd...you have mistaken my point. I think, as many here have expressed, that the going rate of $10/point is low. Obviously, Disney thinks so too. They are charging much more than the equivalent of $10/pt. for cash reservations and seem to have no problem getting it. You can rest assured that the few points that I have rented where for more than $10/pt and the people who rented them have been happy to get them! I think the members renting their points would be suprised to find out how much people would pay if they just asked!

We will have to agree to disagree about being fair to other members when we rent points.

I also disagree that DVC is an "exclusive club"...anybody with about $10K can be a member ( and rent out their points if they chose.)

Off-Site 2/92
Coronado Springs 11/98
Swan 3/00
MOWC 7/00
BWV 1/01
Hilton Head Isl DVC 3/01
BWV 11/01

[AnnK]

Or members could just realize that renting a premium resort for the price of a "value" resort is ridiculous.
I am not against members renting if that is their prerogative. I just feel that they should rent closer to the true rental price. Why GIVE to these people what they themselves cannot buy?
Supply and demand ? It's already there! Have you looked at the rental board? There is a HUGE demand for points. One post goes up and within a very short time there at 3-7 replies, all looking to rent those points. That would be a prime example of Demand.( and maybe a low supply.) If the members asked higher prices I have NO DOUBT that they would get it. You say you wouldn't pay it, but I am confident that many other's would and those who do not choose to pay the higher price per point can always stay at the All-Star.
BTW I understand your interest in this, you are a renter, not an owner.

[Peterd]

Bigcat, Like I said, I was mistaken, I thought DVC was an exclusive club, I was wrong. I thought it was a club, you paid your dues, and you got premium rooms with certain benefits. You traded points with other members who were short one year etc... Sort of like a beach club or Golf club. I was wrong. You don't have to pay the dues, you get the benefits, and you can get the rooms cheaper if you use these boards. No hard feelings.

[Doctor P]

I would gently and respectfully suggest that DVC is built on formal and informal respect for the joint rights, privileges, and responsibilities. I am deeply bothered by any statement that members have no responsibilities with respect to the ability of other members to enjoy their membership or the amenities of DVC. DVC, at least in part, is built on condominium declarations that formalize one's rights and responsibilities towards other members. Even as the owner of a single family home, you have responsibilities towards your neighbors. Indeed, your ability to rent your property is not absolute and is heavily regulated in many jurisdictions even with respect to single family homes. I am not talking about imposing such restrictions here, but rather the general notion that DVC is built on at least some sensitivity to other people (at some level)!

http://www.dreamsunlimitedtravel.com/images/official_logos/keywest.gif

[diaman]

I agree with Stephen:
QUOTE:
SHARE, SELL, RENT YOUR POINTS TO YOUR DVC BROTHERS AND SISTERS! That's right. Let's try and restrict our sale of points to other DVC members. At least at the $10 rate. Can we establish another rate for non-members when we have no other choice but to sell to them?

We should ALL sell our points to non-DVC members $20/point, which is still less expensive if they puchased the room with cash. DVC members can purchase them for $10/point. Non-DVC members can not trick you by saying they are DVC members since they will have to give their membership number to MS when making the reservation. If we use this pricing plan, some of us can make some money and this could go to helping with the cost of ownership. Again, that's just my opinion :)

[disneygals]

Let's see if I can do this without stepping on toes...I'm a DVC wannabe, dh is not, so I don't own.

People who can afford to pay premium nightly charges direct to Disney will not be budget searching and available to rent your pts at $20.

If I know enough about DVC, I will not pay Disney or you $6000-$7500 (approx 300 pts for OKW, 350 for VWL)for a week's stay..I might as well buy.

There are beautiful 2 br timeshares (Vistana, which I own) that you can rent for $750 a week. If I'm truly bargain hunting, I'd choose that. But I MAY be able to justify paying you $10 a pt for the luxury of staying onsite at DVC.

If the rental price goes up, I believe it would cause more people to rent. If I buy a 200 pt pkg at today's prices, it would cost me about $1000 a year for the next 40. Wow, I could make $3000 a yr just by renting!!

Just my opinion and based on family of five...we would NEVER go only from Sun-Thurs nor cram an extra kid into a studio :D

[Dean]

Actually, I was partly kidding about the price increase. The truth is that $10 pp was the market price when you could buy OKW, BW, VB and HH at $62 pp. A lot has happened since then. The price is now $72 pp and there is no longer the ability to buy OKW or BW. Sure the free tickets went away also for some members. I do feel that the time is right for an increase in the basic asking price for rentals, time will tell what will happen.

I suspect that formally conspiring to raise points is technically illegal.

Dean

[Tinker Bell]

Maybe I am missing something. I recall a recent thread where a poster was talking about the high rates that points were trading for on Ebay. He was roundly condemned for trying to drive up the rental prices that other members charge so that he could increase the profitability of his own rental activities.

This thread (with some of the same posters) seems to be taking to opposite view. DVC members are hurt by low rental rates? I agree with disneygals.

High rental rates will increase the number of people that purchase DVC memberships purely for a profit motive. I think that profit maximizers are a greater threat to DVC than any impact from non-members buying points at low prices.

Tinker

[fkj2]

I think part of the problem on the Rent/Trade board is that posters indicate what (size of accommodation) and where and when they want to rent. It's almost as though the DVC members are part of central reservations and somebody is supposed to supply the points at what dollar amount the potential renter wants to pay, in this case the $10/point. Nobody has to rent at that price and if the member does want more $$$ per point, the member can ask for it. If the renter is willing to pay it, fine, if not, that's fine also.

And Dean, I didn't have the impression that anyone actually suggested that collusion should occur; the word, with all its inflammatory reactions of suggesting that those willing to lease for more $$$ are gouging possible renters, was a leap from one post to the next.

[Bigcat]

The best price is where supply equals demand. We obviously have not reached the point where we are charging too much. As I stated before, Disney is charging much more per night than we are and they are the best estimators of market value in the world. So we can charge anywhere up to near where Disney charges and still be economically feasible.

On another point, I don't think that more people will buy DVC memberships simply for profit, it doesn't make sense. For example, buying 150pts now costs $10,800. If you rent all those points each year at $10/pt you take in $1500. Then you have to take off dues of approx. $600/yr leaving you a net income of $900. Take $900 and divide by $10,800 and you come up with a return of only 8.33%...not what I am looking for in investment returns! And that is not counting any of the other intangible renting expenses like time, phone calls, postage, etc.

Off-Site 2/92
Coronado Springs 11/98
Swan 3/00
MOWC 7/00
BWV 1/01
Hilton Head Isl DVC 3/01
BWV 11/01

[Tinker Bell]

Hey Bigcat. I am glad to hear you have some sweet investment opportunities. 8.33% with virtually no risk seems pretty attractive to me about now. ;)

You get to $20/pt and people running a rental business will have it made in the shade :cool:

[TrudyZ]

I have hesitated to respond to this post. But since I feel that renters are starting to be stereotyped in a not-so-favorable light; let's see here if I too can respond without stepping too hard on too many toes.

I am new to the DVC concept and I am recent first time renter. In response to AnnK, you are not "giving me something I cannot buy". On the contrary, I am taking this opportunity to rent to "test drive" the DVC before I plunk my money down (sorry Ann, but it will be cash--and much more than the 150 point mimimum--and on-site where I will be spending most of my time per advice from Rich) for a membership. Two of your fellow DVCers have been gracious enough to rent me points so that I can experience DVC and investigate my various options twice in the next few months. I am sure that ther are many others that have rented for the same intentions--a trial run at the DVC--and ultimately ended up buying.

And no, to put your minds at ease, I did not avoid weekends renting in either trip, as so often is attributed to renters.

Secondly, I would like to address Diaman who feels that points should be rented for $20 per point to non-members. (and Diaman, I really am appalled that feel that a renter would try and "trick" you--with that line of thought I would be concerned renting from you). You are free to charge what you want--and what the market will bear. But please remember that there are several instances during the year that the $20 per point figure makes your price even higher than Disney. If you don't believe me, do the math. For example, for a trip in the month of July (and there are other times this occurs that just July), if I would rent an OKW studio for 7 nights at $20 per point, the price would be $2180. Disney's rack rate is $244 + 11% tax during that time (that doesn't account for a DC or AAA discount). Even with tax and no discount that would be $1895. I am sure that other renters would also be able to do the math. And, if a renter is truly a bargain hunter, following the resort board over the last few weeks would have snagged them upsells at the AKL for $159 to $179, AP rate fo $189 night at the Polynesian, etc. These are all Deluxe resorts.

And, don't forget, there is no risk dealing with Disney. The renter is at risk with no refund and no flexibity when renting points. This all plays into the market value of points.

And I do agree, if the price were set at $20 per point and obtainable, I would be even more likely to buy figuring that if I didn't use it I could at least get my money out of it renting.

So, in response to the original thread of price, as Owners, you have the right to charge what the market will bear. I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with the slant this thread is taking on renters.

Gee, I hope if I decide to buy, that tarnish on me from my recent time as a renter won't come off in the DVC pool!

[McGrane]

I am with those who say RENT ONLY TO DVC BROTHERS AND SISTERS. I have rented my points out two times and ONLY dealt with DVC members. It is not as easy as it seems to rent points, and often one is bombarded with people who don't even know what points are, who don't understand cancellation policies, who are confused as to unit sizes, etc. They communicate back and forth numerous times, still trying to digest the terminology and then call a month later thinking points will still be available. Meaning no rudeness, I want to deal with someone who speaks DVC language for a smooth transaction. For that, I'm willing to sell for less and have done so for points between $7-$9 depending on expiration date.

I really think that we DVC owners owe each other the respect, as co-owners, to try to work with each other first before going out to non-owners. If you want to charge more than me, that's fine, just try to stay with our DVClub.

And please no more whining about not being able to afford DVC and how tough it is being a single mom. I'm a single dad, and it is tough for me too. If we didn't have DVC, I am quite sure my children would be just as happy staying at All Stars at $49/night with the going sale. I wouldn't have to buy points to stay in a deluxe resort, which even with discount of buying from a member would be quite higher than AllStars. That choice is undoubtedly for the comfort of the parent,not the child, so let's be realistic.

[This message was edited by McGrane on 03-13-01 at 10:28 PM.]

[katefromny]

As a renter(next year) and a probable future DVC member (Beach Club Villas), I am thrilled with the opportunity to "test drive" before we buy. I am renting some points for $10 per/and some for $11 per point. Truth be told, I probably would have paid more if pressed.
I understand the argument from the member's side--especially when you consider that the renters have no stake in the resort or future of the program, other than their immediate need of lodging (and cheap!) I suppose there are those renters who will try to cram 8 people into a studio or 10 people into a one bedroom. I suppose there are those renters who will be loud, rude,disrespectful of the others around them-- and take more towels than they're supposed to. I gotta believe there are also DVC members who will do the same thing. This thread about raising the per point cost perplexes me. If rentals were to go for $15 per point, would that somehow soften the blow when the renter is irresponsible or manages to get a standard view room at the 11 month window?

As a future DVC'er, I think it is your responsibility to each other as members to ensure ( as much as possible) that your renters OR friends/family members who stay on your points-- understand the rules of the game, and are grown up enough to abide by them. That being said, I'm not exactly sure how you go about doing this. LOL

I think renting points is okay (of course I'm biased! ) And if you wanna charge $20 per point, go for it..to each his own I say. And you can take that two cents straight to the bank. LOL !

[PamOKW]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>High rental rates will increase the number of people that purchase DVC memberships purely for a profit motive. I think that profit maximizers are a greater threat to DVC than any impact from non-members buying points at low prices. [/quote]

This is the reason why I think DVC needs to step in and look at what is going on with rentals. Maybe it's a problem, maybe it's not.

For those who are renting out points there is a balance. If you need cash for your points you have to figure out what the market will bear. Maybe $10 is right, maybe it's more or maybe it's less. Really, I don't care what it is. I also see where if it is not a rock-bottom bargain people will stay at other Disney resorts or at DVC directly through Disney.

The question raised at the start of this thread is, Why give strangers bargain vacations? There are 1,001 ways to use your points. Unless you are in an emergency situation, with a little planning you can take yourself on all kinds of trips and adventures. If you can't travel this year, I'm sure someone close to you would take an opportunity and would be willing to work out a price equal or maybe even better than what you can rent for. Or maybe there's someone close to you you'd like to do something nice for. Renting points seems to be selling yourself short. DVC is your vacation plan....use it for that!

As to the obligation to provide rentals for the public at large....there is none. If you'd like to try DVC there's no reason you can't arrange it through Disney.

[katefromny]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As to the obligation to provide rentals for the public at large....there is none. If you'd like to try DVC there's no reason you can't arrange it through Disney [/quote]

PamOKW, have you ever tried to get cash ressies for a 2 bedroom BWV at 4 months out?

[PamOKW]

Sorry Kate, getting a 2 bedroom at BWV at 4 months for cash is no harder than it is for a DVC member to do the same for their points. That can also be part of your experience in what DVC is like. ;) In fact, sometimes there are cash reservations but not rooms available for points. You take the regular Disney cash reservation and a member who calls can get what they paid for as well.

I just mean that you can get a DVC resort to try it out. How difficult or easy it is may be a problem but it is not the DVC members' obligation to provide easy ways for non-DVC members to try the resort.

[This message was edited by PamOKW on 03-14-01 at 08:51 AM.]

[Doctor P]

That is precisely the reason many on these boards would argue that renting is not appropriate! If you are talking about BWV, there is simply no incentive for Disney nor for DVC members to make accomodation for nonmembers to "try it out." If you are talking about a resort that is available other than through resale, there may be a point.

http://www.dreamsunlimitedtravel.com/images/official_logos/keywest.gif

[katefromny]

if we are considering a DVC purchase (namely BCV) what better place to experience the similar ambience, and atmosphere--then at BWV? Because for us, if we buy, it will be onsite. Renting points gives us the opportunity to try both of the resorts we are looking at: WLV and BCV--granted, we aren't actually staying at BCV, though someone with questionable character did contact me to "rent me points" for that particular resort! LOL!
As an experiment, I tried (in vain) to make cash ressies at 11 months out for BWV, at 7 months, and at 4. You DVC'ers must agree that even at the 7 month window things can be tight, depending on the time of year, the room and the resort. DVC'ers have a leg up on the rest of the world, atleast in the matter of making reservations at their home or other DVC resort. And that is as it should be. I don't even have the option (according to WDTC) until 4 months out.

So, while you are absolutely under no obligation to rent out your points to schmucks like me, those DVC'ers who DO want or need to rent out points are a-okay in my book, especially considering the many risks involved to both renter and rentee.

As long as there is a market that will bear it, I think renting is here to stay. I don't know that pouring money into renting is in our long term future, but for some it is a way to experience a deluxe resort and amenities without paying deluxe prices. Unless Disney expressely forbides this practice, I really don't see what you can do about it. Hope I didn't step on too many toes! :)

[AnnK]

In response to AnnK, you are not "giving me something I cannot buy".

TrudyZ,
I was not talking about the renter, I was talking about DVC owners, they can not "buy" a room for 80.00 a night. Why should they sell to someone else for such a cheap rate? In fact if it were not for these boards, no one could, even you, could not get a room at BWV,OKW or VWL for such a low price..
If someone wants to "test drive" a DVC resort they can always rent from Disney. We rented from Disney before we bought, that opportunity is always there for those who would not want to pay a DVC member a price closer to the true value of the product.

"sorry Ann, but it will be cash--and much more than the 150 point mimimum--and on-site where I will be spending most of my time per advice from Rich) for a membership."

I hardly care how many points you or any other member owns. I don't care if you buy with cash or finance, none of this has anything to do with encouraging DVC members to rent their points/rooms for a price that is higher than the All-Star. I have never disclosed the amount I own because to me that's like revealing your salary, personal and not something I am about to share. I refuse to get into a "who has more points" discussion with someone who has not even purchased a single point. (I would not debate it after your purchase either as it does not matter to me how many points someone owns.) Some members think the drop to 150 points was a bad decision, I am not one of them as I feel people should purchase what they need and are comfortable with. That of course would be an entirely different topic.
There are bargains to be found. The prices you quote, does that include the 11% tax? I believe it would add about another $17.00 to $19.00 to the price of the room PER NIGHT.
There are risks to both the DVC member and the renter.
Bigcat has already said that we could charge anywhere NEAR Disney prices and it would still be economically feasible, he is correct. Who said it has to be per point? Disney charges per room. DVC members could do that too.
I wonder IF you purchased if you would still have the same opinion of the low price as you do now.
Tinkerbell, no one is keeping you from purchasing if you feel the profits from renting are that great. I personally have not had to rent my points, but if I did I would get much closer to the per room night that Disney asks, and forget charging per point. I also don't see that many people would purchase purely with the intent to sell, the profit is not that great compared with other investment opportunities.
If someone is happy owning at Vistana, that's great. I own another timeshare in Aruba, but it doesn't compare to DVC and I could not rent it for anywhere near the price I could rent my BW or OKW rooms for. There are many timeshares in the Orlando area and I am sure many of those owners are happy with their purchase, but staying on Disney property has always cost more. Even All- Star gets more for a room than some beautiful hotels/resorts that have more amenities, but are located off property.
I am not "bashing" renters. The point of the post is that renting a DVC property for the price of All-Star is too cheap. I understand renters not wanting the price to increase, but I think it's time for DVC owners to realize the true value of the room and price accordingly.

[This message was edited by AnnK on 03-14-01 at 11:12 AM.]

[PamOKW]

I am curious where renters get in touch with DVC members. Is Pete's Board and E-Bay the primary resources or are there other boards that are popular for this as well?

[JeffreyH]

After my first trip to Disney in 8 years, and the first time with a child, I am seriously considering becoming a DVC member. As a financial analyst, I decided to "run the numbers". I did this, and I came up with a cost of <MESSAGE_BODY><![CDATA[0 per point per year. And this was before I had ever heard of renting points or Disney's Magical Beginnings.

Here's how I derived this:

Disney is now charging $72 per point, with a minimum purchase of 150 points. I can take <MESSAGE_BODY><![CDATA[0,800 and purchase 150 points, or I could decide against it and use that money to pay down my debts. Assuming I'll always have some debt at an interest rate of 8% (car loan, student loan, whatever), if I buy into DVC instead of paying down my debt I'll pay $864 extra in interest on my debt (<MESSAGE_BODY><![CDATA[0,800 * 8%) every year. If you have a bunch of credit card debt, your "cost" is even higher. If you only have a 7% mortgage out there (which is deductible for many), your cost is less. But I use 8% as the average rate of interest that one might avoid.

Alternatively, I could invest the <MESSAGE_BODY><![CDATA[0,800 in the stock market. A common rule of thumb for long-term investors is a 12% market return. After taxes this is about 8%. You're giving up $864 in earnings you could have made. This is your "opportunity cost" of parting with the <MESSAGE_BODY><![CDATA[0,800.

Next, I assume that 10 or 15 years from now I can probably resell my points for $72 each. By then Disney will probably be charging $90+ (2% increases a year or so), resale will be in the $70's maybe. So if I decide to do this for just 10-15 years, my cost is only my extra interest paid on my extra debt or the foregone earnings.

Next, I have to pay upwards of $450-$600/year in maintenance fees, depending on the resort ($3-4 per point * 150 points). Next year this will probably be 3% higher, etc. 10 years from now, the cost will probably be $600-$800 (3% increase per year). So from an average of $525 in 2001 to about $700 in 2011. On average, this means about $615 per year.

So my annual cost is about $864 in foregone earnings or interest paid because I spent <MESSAGE_BODY><![CDATA[0,800 on the DVC instead of paying down my debts or investing the money PLUS $615 per year in maintenance fees. This totals <MESSAGE_BODY><![CDATA[,479. Lets round it off to <MESSAGE_BODY><![CDATA[,500.

So to get 150 points per year for 10 or 15 years (then sell out - making assumptions out 40 years gets dicey.), my cost per point per year is about <MESSAGE_BODY><![CDATA[0/point.

That means the cost for me to stay at a 1-BR BWV in May in a pref. view room for a week averages out to about $360 per night (252 points * <MESSAGE_BODY><![CDATA[0 / 7 nights). Better than $415/night + tax Disney is charging "the public". And it should be better, I've committed to spending about <MESSAGE_BODY><![CDATA[,500 per year for Disney lodging.

And it means I can get a "studio" room during the week for only $80-<MESSAGE_BODY><![CDATA[10. True the "public" can't get that offer, but a DVC member's "cost" for those points IS about <MESSAGE_BODY><![CDATA[0. And I don't think it is a coincidence that Disney offers that rate. Companies do this sort of analysis all the time.

Basicilly, people selling their points at <MESSAGE_BODY><![CDATA[0 per point are getting what they paid for them, and they may have gone to waste if they didn't sell. What the "renter" gets is the low average cost the member achieved by buying so much lodging in advance. The price to the renter is the effort required to track down these points.

As you can see, I'm a "numbers guy". Hope this is of some use.


yes cheaper than disneys price, because you have committed to <MESSAGE_BODY><![CDATA[,500+ per year.

[wininbid]

How can you all keep saying that non-members are getting into "your" resorts for LESS than members are paying? Are all of you paying $10 a point EVERY year that you go? I don't think so! I own a 1 br unit in Maui for 1 week, and was able to trade it for a week at OKW this summer. And yes, I will in the future rent points for a vacation. Let me see the drawback...... A DVC member has enough points for 2 weeks, only takes one week, and lets me rent the other week. Still only 2 weeks being used by that member. Stop all the whining, and let others enjoy too! If you selct few don't want to rent out your points, then don't! There are lots of people that will!

[Peterd]

I was wondering if these numbers would fly with the IRS. Is a DVC member required to claim any income taken in from renting his points? Of course, I know no one would be dumb enough to do so, but how legal is it not to do so?
I know if I rented my points out for four or five straight years, it would pay itself off. Then every year after would be profit. Taxable profit? Do the travel agents have to claim profits made? of course they do. Wouldn't it be a shame if a travel agent sent a little note to the IRS, claiming that it wasn't fair to his business, He couldn't compete with DVC sellers, and that DVC owner's were not claiming the income. I bet this would raise the price on points.

[TrudyZ]

AnnK, I apologize if I misinterpreted you, but your statement of:

"I am not against members renting if that is their prerogative. I just feel that they should rent closer to the true rental price. Why GIVE to these people what they themselves cannot buy?"

surely seemed to me to be aimed at renters.

My statements regarding not buying the minimum number of points and paying cash were said in response to your statement above slighting renters by inferring that renters rent because they can't afford to buy--it was not meant to engage you in a debate regarding point ownership or to flaunt my ability to pay cash.

I do not feel that any owners owes it to my to rent points. Nor do I think I said that anywhere in my post. I was simply stating that in defense of the various posts insinuating (and sometimes directly stating) that renters rent to be cheap, use only weekdays, exceed occupancy limits, tear up the place, will try to "trick" you, and on and on; that I rented to confirm my decision to buy. I understand that I could have made my ressies thru Disney--from the tone of this thread perhaps I should have done that??

The prices I quoted for the OKW thru Disney versus renting did indeed include tax. My intent was to point out to Owners who were not familiar with Disney pricing that due to season differences between DVC and Disney, there are times when at the elevated price per point, Disney is a better (and much safer) bargain. And, to point out that once the price of points is raised signifigantly, true bargain hunters will do the math and will most likely be able to find delux resorts at comparable or lower prices (hence my reference to the latest offers at AKL, Polynesian, etc).

AnnK, I meant nothing personal, I really jumped into this thread because from following these boards for the last few months, it seems that the Owners have a love/hate relationship with renters--and the hate side seemed to be rearing it's ugly head in this thread. I felt that I need to post a reponse to rebutt some of those renter stereotypes posted.

I am also a little sad that with the reading of this thread, my illusion (developed from the last several months following these boards) of owners being happy to assist non-members with advice, spreading the joy and sunshine about DVC (many with great vibrance), and encouraging non-members to join DVC, has dissipated. I have truly enjoyed info I have gleaned (and the occasional pot-stirring) from Doc, Rich, and numerous others. It is these boards that first encouraged me to considering buying into DVC (and, indirectly, to rent first to confirm my decision to buy). Geeze, I thought all of you owners who were sitting on the fence about renters would be encouraged to see something good come of renting--an example of renting leading to ownership--I guess I was way off. (wow, I am sure I just blew any chances of ever getting "Welcomed Home").

Finally, as I have stated before and continue to state--you are free to charge what you want. That's the beauty of a free market. If you want to raise the price, that is your perogative. I have nothing against owners; in fact, assuming we are happy with what we see and experience, we will soon join in. And yes, when I buy (not likely 'IF'), I will most likely avoid renting; but if necessary I will rent my points at reasonable prices.

[Dean]

You must rent more than 2 weeks to be required to report as income, otherwise it would be expected to be claimed as income.

Dean

[Peterd]

Dean, I was just kidding about the irs stuff, but, the two week renting, Does it have to be two week blocks? or a total of 14 days? Could someone with a lot of points rent 13 days to a bunch of people, without claiming it?Just curious.

[PamOKW]

The IRS rules get complicated but it looks like you don't have to report the income until you are renting your 15th day to a non-family member. It doesn't have to be in blocks. You also have to stay at least one day in the property yourself during the year to have personal use rules apply. I'm also assuming if you are renting two different studios at the same time that it counts as 2 days every day.

The IRS definition of personal use is kind of interesting. If DCV takes that to be their definition of personal use rentals can be done with family, friends or strangers as long as it's below fair market value. Then we really will be giving strangers charity. ;)

[LisaR]

AnnK - I am sorry, but I find the following quote rather insulting:
"Why GIVE to these people what they themselves cannot buy" As a former renter, I now own at DVC. To suggest that renters have been "given" a trip is a bit of a stretch. I have rented numerous times - always a 2 bedroom and always for 7 nights (therefore utilizing weekends). I spent thousands of dollars for each rental. I do not know what world you are living in, but in my world, I wasn't "given" anything. And to assume that I or any other renter cannot afford DVC is insulting and ridiculous. Let me ask you something. I just bought a digital camera that retails for $699. The cheapest I found it at any store or online was $599 on sale. One day, I stroll into a store and there is the camera I want for $299 plus I have a $50 off coupon. What would you do??? Would you say, "Oh, I am not going to buy this camera for $250 because it might offend or upset someone, somewhere. I think I will go spend $599 on it instead. Afterall, they are "GIVING" this camera to me and I would hate anyone to "GIVE" me anything. Plus, it may seem like I couldn't afford to spend the $599 and I wouldn't want anyone to think that about me" Or would you say what I said "I got a great deal and I jumped on it". How does this apply to renting points? If someone sees points for $10 a point and a trip would cost them say $2500 and then they call Disney direct and find out the same room is $4500 - what do you think most people would choose?? It does not have anything to do with being able to afford DVC, it is simply a bargin and most smart people would jump at it.

Everyone that is against renting makes it sound as if it is the renters fault that points can be rented out for "only" $10 a point. I did not pick the going rate for renting points when I rented. It was determined by the boards. Don't blame renters!

I understand that the original point of the post was to suggest that the $10 pp is too low but somehow it seems to have come back to the renters being at fault.

As for me, I do not plan on renting my points. I intend on going twice a year, every year. I didn't buy so I could rent. However, if I ever get in a jam and I have to rent, I will do it at whatever price the market is accepting.

DVC is not some special, exclusive, elusive club. At least in my opinion. I do not ever want to come across as someone better then someone else because I own at DVC. It is a decision my family made regarding our vacation and it does not make me special in any way shape or form over someone who rents or stays at the All Stars.
Lisa

[AnnK]

LisaR, a I am sorry that you think I am some type of elitist. I am not. To answer your attacks on me I say.....
Quote
"To suggest that renters have been "given" a trip is a bit of a stretch. I have rented numerous times - always a 2 bedroom and always for 7 nights (therefore utilizing weekends). I spent thousands of dollars for each rental. I do not know what world you are living in, but in my world, I wasn't "given" anything. And to assume that I or any other renter cannot afford DVC is insulting and ridiculous. "


Let me make this clear, I was saying to give your points ( rooms) away for the price of All-Star is ridiculous. The quote that you are so insulted by is saying WHY ARE YOU GIVING ROOMS AWAY FOR THE SAME PRICE OF ALL-STAR, WHEN YOU AS A MEMBER COULD NOT RENT IT FOR THAT SAME PRICE? Understand? You could not get a discount through CR or MS for such low prices. I, in no way said that a renter could not afford to buy DVC. I have no idea where you got that impression. As I told TrudyZ, I do not care how many points someone owns, how they purchased their points, I do not care about anyone elses financial status, and make no judgement on IF they can afford to buy DVC. If you find this in my post please show it to me?

Quote
"Everyone that is against renting makes it sound as if it is the renters fault that points can be rented out for "only" $10 a point. I did not pick the going rate for renting points when I rented. It was determined by the boards. Don't blame renters!"

Where did I say I was against renters? All I said was members are selling their points too cheap and that the price should reflect the true quality of the product and not cost the same as the All-Star, a value resort. ( Disney is the one who calls it a VALUE RESORT, this is not a term I made up.)

Quote
"DVC is not some special, exclusive, elusive club. At least in my opinion. I do not ever want to come across as someone better then someone else because I own at DVC. It is a decision my family made regarding our vacation and it does not make me special in any way shape or form over someone who rents or stays at the All Stars."

Where did I say it was "special,exclusive or elusive?" Did I say that I, or anyone who own in DVC, is better than anyone else? Did I say owners in DVC are better than people who stay at All-Star? Where did I say this? Disney prices according to amenitities. The resorts are PREMIUM, MODERATE and VALUE. BWV, VWL, and OKW are PREMIUM resorts, ALL-STAR is a VALUE. Disney themselves have NEVER priced ANY PREMIUM as the same price as All-STAR ( VALUE resort). NEVER. Why should a DVC member?
Congratulaitons on buying DVC. Each family has to make their own decisions on IF it is right for them, I personally don't judge a person on if they bought DVC, I know people with far more money than I have, and they don't own in DVC, because they don't want to. So it's NOT how much money you have but what you enjoy.

[AnnK]

TrudyZ,
Now I can see why you thought I meant renters could not afford to buy DVC. It's the wording. What I was actually saying is that they(DVC members) cannot buy a room for the prices that they are selling them.
I have no problem with renters. I am not going to judge members who choose to rent. I KNOW not eveyone wants/or can afford DVC, that does not mean I don't think they should go to Disney.
My point is that DVC members should be charging a price that better reflects the true value of the product. Based on the Rent/Trade board, they could easily charge more and get it. If a member posts that they have points for rent, they are receiving responses in under and hour. The demand is there. People who say that they will not pay the higher price may not, but I am betting others will.

[TrudyZ]

AnnK:

Whew! I am glad that is cleared up! I guess you can now see why I jumped in with both arms swinging! I have reread your posts--you personally do not make any references to the alleged "sins" of renters. It is other DVCers responding to your original post that do.

I understand your concern over the price per point. I can say that there are some real trade offs with renting versus ressies with Disney: renting is usually non-refundable, limited if no cancellation allowed, cash up front, large amount of trust involved, not the same services as regular resort guests, etc., to name a few. Do these things make the ressie thru a DVCer less appealing than Disney: absolutely. Is $10 or less per point the fair trade off for the risks and restrictions--I am not sure--perhaps not. There will be an equilibrium point somewhere between the savings someone is willing to take versus the risks/restrictions involved. It has been around $10 in the past. It may be able to go higher, that remains to be seen. And, if the price rises there may be some price per point tie to a specific DVC season to keep the DVC price at a certain range with the Disney season.

And I still hope that those Owners strongly opposed to renting see that something good can come of renting--when I buy in maybe your dues will go down!!

No hard feelings??

[LisaR]

AnnK, Sorry that you thought my entire post was directed at you. I did reread your posts and mine. If you reread my post, you will see that the first paragraph is directed at you. You admit in the post under mine that your wording may not have been clear when referring to renters not being able to afford DVC - I don't think that is my fault.

Your next statement about stating that I did not understand (or read) what you posted about "giving" away rooms because you meant giving them away at the price of the All Stars - Well, I did read and understand what you wrote. I guess my idea of giving away and your idea of giving away are two different things. The All Star is $89 a night tops (if you pay more then that, you are probably not very good at bargin hunting). With tax, 7 nights at the All Stars is $691.53. Since I have paid between $2500 and $3000 each time I have rented points, I fail to see them being the same price. Sure, you can compare a studio price to the All Star and probably come up with a closer figure (I don't know because I have never rented a studio or paid cash for one), however, I have read MANY posts from people who have rented or are looking to rent 1 or 2 bedroom units and MOST seem to want to rent for an ENTIRE week. I honestly (although I do not have any proof) believe that most people that rent are not people who normally stay at the All Stars.

As for the REST of my post, NOTHING was directed at you. I NEVER say that you are an "Elitist". I never say that anyone is for that matter. I simply state that IMHO owning at DVC does not make me special in any way, shape or form. I say that statement because I have read time and time again posts that knock renters because they don't take good care of the unit and they stuff too many people into the unit, etc I am saying that I am the same now that I own as I was before I owned. I am tired of renters being bashed (NO, THIS COMMENT IS NOT DIRECTED AT YOU, ANN)As a former renter and a current owner, I was a good renter, cash paying customer and now owner. I don't think all renters are out to take advantage of DVC owners (AGAIN ANN, THIS IS NOT QUOTING YOU IN ANY WAY). I am not directing it at an one person. I could not even name names if someone forced me to because I honestly do not pay attention. I just know that there are "renter bashers" out there because I have read the posts many times.

If you took my post as being 100% directed at you, I am very sorry. It was not my intent. Again, it was not directed at anyone at all. It is just my opinion on this subject.

I guess my whole point to the post was this - if there are people willing to rent their points for $10 pp and there are people willing to buy at $10 pp and it is not illegal, then who are any of us to "fix" it?

I really fail to see how I hurt any DVC member by renting points. In the long run, I ended up being so impressed that I bought. I thought the goal of so many DVC members (and this board) was to get some more members because it is such a great thing? If I upset the balance by renting points, sorry. However, I would do it again if I had decided not to buy instead.

Lisa

[Peterd]

This whole thread is based on a quote from the budget board that said they rented a DVC studio for less than what they would have paid at the All-Star. At 8 points a night at the Old Key West, that would be $80 per night no tax. At the BW $90 per night. The woman did not mention staying in a one or two bedroom for a week. She just said for LESS than staying at the All-Star. If you want, you could look it up on the Budget Board, something about can't believe someone would pay $700 per night for a room. I went back and read it, and didn't realize how true it was at $10 per point. Yes, I know some will still rent points out for $10 per point, and they could do whatever they want. No one cares. So, don't worry renters you're not in trouble of losing your cheap rooms.
This is to the DVC members, (so renters don't get all in a huff),The demand is definitely there for higher prices. Call for resv. for March, SOLD OUT, April SOLD OUT, May to Nov, SOLD OUT. There are so many people willing to pay Disney just to get into these rooms for $250 to $300 per night,but can't get in. The demand is there. As for the renters who won't pay more than the $10 per point, someone will. Tomorrow a post will go up for either points for sale at the BW or resv. at the BW for sale, and BAM at least 7 will reply. Look at the guy who had the resv. over Christmas, and sold for over 7 grand. Disney was charging that rate, he had the room, posted it for RENT, people were outraged about the post. Someone bought it. Think about it. Someone wants to stay at the Poly or the Contemp for 220 garden view, 300 tower view. They are sold out. You don't think this person will pay the same for OKW or BW? They would to Disney. Why not at least get half that. You've invested your money over the next 40 or so years, and you don't HAVE to rent at $10 because someone says that's your break even point. I'm gonna use that rational next time,I go to buy a new car.
One last thing, I don't rent my points out, and don't care who you rent to, or at what price. I just wanted some fellow Dvcer's to check out the price comparisons (like all-stars) your'e selling at. The $10 dollar a point may have been good about 8 years ago, but seems pretty low to today's standards. Ask a friend, Hey want to stay at the Boardwalk for half price?($150) I bet he says yes. I'm done with this post, it served it's purpose for awhile. DVC'ers enjoy, renters good luck. "DA times are a changing!"

[Jeffros]

I personally never rent points but if I did I would try to get more than 10 per pt. I agree that it makes more sense to charge by the night according to the accomodations and the going rate with a discount. Under stand that the rate should be a decent % less than the going rate since there is no daily maid service and less flexable cancelation options.

Jeff and Sandy, WE LOVE
http://disneyclipart.simplenet.com/Mouselaneous/Disney_Signature/Dissign.gif

[Tinker Bell]

JeffreyH (a.k.a "Numbers Guy") --

Keep in mind that DVC is a leasehold interest that expires in 2042. The economic value of points (holding any assumptions on Disney cash rates constant) declines every year. It is true that the "market price" of points has continued to increase in spite of this fact. Clearly, this can not continue indefinitely (and at some point will reverse course). My only point is that your assumption that you can sell your membership at $72 in 10 to 15 years from now might be a stretch.

At some point the Disney marketing machine will switch to selling membership that are a part of a new "condominium" with a longer maturity. At that point the economic issue of the 2042 maturity will become a "market issue". Disney will certainly emphasis this point in their marketing process and I predict there will be a sudden end to the increasing value of existing DVC points.

I like your analysis and I don't know how much this issue would change your conclusion. I just raise the question for your consideration.

Tinker

[ckr]

* If you bought DVC for yourself as a Vacation Club and not as a COMMERCIAL VENTURE, you will only be renting in situations where you have to rent 'em or lose 'em. $10 is better than nothing, yet does not reward those who are using their membership as a commercial venture.

* DVC is NOT about economics OR free enterprise OR supply and demand. At least it is not supposed to be. Economics and free enterprise and supply and demand are all COMMERCIAL / BUSINESS terms, not VACATION terms.

* Making renting more lucrative will only increase its appeal and perhaps draw some of the "I don't think I'll ever rent" group in. Even more, the "I will never make a prime time ressie simply to rent it" group (like me) might say, "Well, I wish things were different, but it looks like these are the rules of the game and I can play by them as well as the next guy." Even I can't deny that it is very attractive to think I could pay off my membership early by just renting for a few years... (But could I deny my Disney craving -- probably not! he he!)

* Increased renting WILL make getting ressies more difficult. As Peterd stated: "We own a decent amount of points, and usually reserve a two bedroom a couple times a year or a grand villa. I don't think you could find someone to rent the amount of points it would take to get a grand villa for two weeks at the BW. So if I were to rent my points, I would be renting out 10 or more studios for five days in a preferred view " So instead of a family using their VACATION ownership to take a single 2BR out of the mix for 2 weeks, we're looking at the member who rents taking 10 Studios out of the mix (for Sun-Thurs). How could that NOT affect availability for other members?

* In terms of supply and demand, I think the supply is too high. Yes, the demand is there as well (now), but the large supply is what is drawing attention to this bargain for renters. If the supply was slim to none, the "just go to the Rent/Trade Board for a great deal -- someone is always renting points..." would diminish and bargain hunters (like myself -- hats off to us all!) would search elsewhere. Kind of like resales: Not many BWVs, so although you may get lucky and find a bargain, most people will go to plan B. The large supply is, at least in part (IMHO -- not an econ person, just seems logical to me), generating the demand.

In my opinion, renting is something you do on occasion when you're in a bind. Getting $10/point rather than losing out completely seems fair. Whether it is a member or non-member reaping the benefits of my misfortune is immaterial. (What? Not be able to use my points -- somehow?!?!? Never! he he) But let's not make it more attractive to use our VACATION CLUB membership for financial gains.

JMHO :

[Lucky4me]

Here comes another one of those non DVC'rs with her 2 cents.

I think comparing Old Key West to deluxe hotels in WDW is like comparing apples to oranges. Yes, its a beautiful resort. Yes, the units are gorgeous and spacious. But you do not get the amenties of a deluxe hotel. No daily maid service, no room service, it's not close to a park or a monorail. The pools are nicely landscaped but no more so than any other Disney resort. (moderates included) It's a high priced timeshare resort that happens to be inside the gates of WDW. I've stayed here twice before and love it so much, I'd prefer it over staying at a deluxe resort in WDW any day, but I couldn't compare it to one and say it should be rented out for the same cost as a deluxe hotel..

I believe $10 a point for this resort is reasonable and I doubt it will go much higher any time soon. Now, Boardwalk and the new Beach Club villas are a slightly different matter as their location makes them more of a deluxe. The pools have deluxe themeing, there are many restaurants nearby, and you're a five minute walk from Epcot. This is why more points are needed to stay here and why members should also charge more dollars per point if they chose to rent out their points.

I'd have to put the Wilderness Lodge villas somewhere between the others. Location is not the best, but the themeing is spectacular, the restaurants are varied, and the pool is definitely a deluxe.

SO....if I were a owner and wanted to rent out my points, I'd ask less for stays at OKW and more for the others.

I'm lucky as my sister is an owner and has let us stay there for their yearly maintenance fee. Now THERE'S a bargain!

[PamOKW]

No one's replied so let me try again. Is Pete's Board and E-Bay the primary resources for renting or are there other boards that are popular for this as well?

[TampaDisneyFreaks]

To Lucky4Me,
All DVC resorts are considered by Disney to be in the deluxe category or "home away from home" category, which is on the same level or maybe higher than the deluxe. Therfore, IMHO, it is not apples to oranges as far as the quality of accommodations, level of service, landscaping/theming, etc. . AT first I was bothered by not having maid service on a daily basis (before I took my first trip as a DVC memeber). After that first trip, I found that I actually preferred it that way and if you want extra "maid" service, you can buy it at a very nominal charge. I won't even start on the original topic of this thread, but I did want to defend the DVC resorts (or at least OKW and VWL) against the others. You could say it is apples to oranges in one case, the DVC resort accommodations are larger (for the most part) than the accommodations at the other deluxe resorts. A studio (the smallest DVC accomodation on property) is larger than the majority of rooms at the other deluxe resorts. I know this from experience and from some comparison of room sizes that I saw somewhere (also, I beleive Rich's so-hated Sales Guides state this in their presentation (if I remember correctly)). Even in that case, the DVC resort comes out BETTER (IMHO) than the other deluxe resorts.

[Peterd]

Pam, I did find one other. The owners post how many points they have available, and all the interaction goes through email. I came across it one day, when I was looking for other DVC member sites. I wouldn't post it here, because it would give the renters another option, and possibly lower the rental rate further.

Lucky4me,

"I think comparing Old Key West to deluxe hotels in WDW is like comparing apples to oranges. Yes, its a beautiful resort. Yes, the units are gorgeous and spacious. But you do not get the amenties of a deluxe hotel. No daily maid service, no room service, it's not close to a park or a monorail. The pools are nicely landscaped but no more so than any other Disney resort. (moderates included) It's a high priced timeshare resort that happens to be inside the gates of WDW. I've stayed here twice before and love it so much, I'd prefer it over staying at a deluxe resort in WDW any day, but I couldn't compare it to one and say it should be rented out for the same cost as a deluxe hotel.."

WOW! OKW not a Deluxe resort?

Get ready to Duck! (Remember this is not a BW vs. OKW thing, it's OKW vs. Deluxe) Keep your hands up, and keep it clean.

Go get 'em OKWesters!

[This message was edited by Peterd on 03-15-01 at 12:45 PM.]

[This message was edited by Peterd on 03-15-01 at 01:29 PM.]

[nuthut]

PAMOKW-

An answer to your question. The rentals on ebay sell for about 15 a point while the rentals here at 10-11 a point. I know of no other venue as good as ebay except renting to friends and family and referrals from other renters. Ebay cost about $20 to list and sell each time. Also many times are rented off ebay after the potential renters find an owner on ebay. Then there is no ebay fee.
Owners who rent thier points on this board are tossing money right out the window. Why? I guess they do not know any better.

I will not rent my points for $10 each so don't ask.

[PamOKW]

Thanks for the info on the rental sources.

As to whether DVC is deluxe or not, in the olden days before they created the Home Away From Home, the Disney Vacation Club (aka OKW) was always included in the Deluxe Category. Also, if you check some of our papers you'll see Deluxe is divided into 3 categories as well. GF on it's own; then most of the other deluxes and then a third category for WL and the Contemporary Wings.

[MN_DizNut]

So, I'm guessing no one here is willing to rent a gazillion points to me for a buck each???

Jon

WDW '85 offsite
DL '85
DL '87
WDW '89 offsite
WL '97
WL '97 (again!)
WH '99
WL '99
AStSp '99 (YUCKY!!!)
DCL/Poly Jun/July '02

[McGrane]

Doesn't bother me if Lucky4Me doesn't consider OKW deluxe...all us OKW owners know how top scale this resort is. Deluxe is just a word used by Disney; if OKW didn't have the suites as part of the resort, they would be classified as "deluxe" instead of "home away from home". If you look at the nightly rental fee of OKW as compared to other "deluxes", you'll see it is the same or even less at the "deluxes". One can get a room at Polynesian or Contemporary for far less than OKW. Labels never meant much to me...just look at how much it costs and you'll know how "deluxe" OKW is.

By the way, Lucky4Me proves my point about why it's frustrating to rent to non-DVC-ers. Charging more per point for BW, WLV doesn't make sense because those resorts require more points to reserve. If you want to buy points for BW, you'll have to buy more of them to get same size room (unless you happen to get one of the rarely obtained standard views!) Furthermore, OKW rooms are larger and offer more in that regard.

[dianeschlicht]

You miss one very big point. OKW is a Townhouse, not a hotel!!!! It is for that very reason that many of us consider it the MOST deluxe resort. I agree that it is not a hotel atmosphere like BW or GF, but I don't want to stay in a hotel room. I want to stay in a "vacation home", and that is what I do.

Disneydiane http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vltdisney/mickey36.gif http://www.dreamsunlimitedtravel.com/images/official_logos/keywest.gif

[Dean]

I can see what Lucky4me is saying, it's obviously she's not trashing OKW, just saying it's different. Though I personally like OKW best, it is different than the traditional 5* type resort. If you look at things like concierge, room service, maid service, plush lobby; it's not a Deluxe in those regards. What everyone else is saying is that the parking, quiet, scenery, room, full kitchen and back home feel make it as good or better than the traditional Deluxe resort and I would agree.

Dean

[baileybrad]

resorts are top notch and I think that what hurts when folks are allowed to steal the reservations so cheaply. But we do live in a democracy and I am sure there will always be someone willing to undercut others prices.

[wininbid]

It amazes me as to some of the comments listed on here. Let me quote one in particular....

"when folks are allowed to steal the reservations so cheaply".

No-one is stealing anything from anyone. Most of you people whining on here act as though the DVC resorts are only for you to use. $10/ point??, I traded into OKW through Interval International, and paid only $129 for the whole week. Guess I shouldn't have been able to do that either right. Or I guess I shouldn't try and book any of those resorts through Disney because it would be taking a spot from a DVC member. This is rediculous!
This is the problem. A large percentage of people are renting points for $10 each, and others want to get more for theirs, and can't. If you don't want to rent for $10 a point then don't. If the going rate is $10 per point, then they will always be available at that price. Spend more time planning a great trip for your family, and less time worrting about who is getting what for less than you, or less than you think they should! Unbelievable!

[Lucky4me]

Thankyou Dean. How could I trash OKW? I LOVE it there! Better than any other resort in WDW.

I own non Disney timeshares and the actual resorts are very close in comparison. While I feel that I am staying at a very classy, upgraded, beautiful place, its still not a "hotel" like GF, Cont., Poly. etc. and doesn't offer the amenities that they do. Having said that, given a choice I would pick OKW (or my own timeshare) over any of them! I like the comforts of home. Maybe thats why they put them into a category of their own called "Home away from home" thats exactly how I feel when I stay there.

(and I really, really wish I had the $$$ to buy some points...sigh...maybe when I get one or two kids out of college...its going to be a long 7 years!)

[Dean]

How about the cost of your timeshare, you're yearly maint fees and how'd you like the $95 resort services fee. You got lucky, one of the few and truly got a bargain. Actually DVC IS only for the members to use. Sure the members may use it by exchanging, trading points to Disney for other accomodations, Concierge Collection, etc. No one is obligated to make anything available to anyone else, member or nonmember. If they chose to, that's their bussiness as long as they fly within the rules. Sure there is some whining going on here but since we're part of the family, that's allowed. I'm not saying you're not welcome here or allowed to post (not my call anyway and I'm glad I don't have such responsibility) just that it's not the place of a non member to correct the members on this subject, IMO. Since I'm pretty far to the right on this subject, I'd guess you're going to get a few choice responses.

Dean

[eva]

I don't have a problem with others renting out their points. And I really don't care how much they charge for them. I think what bothers me the most is a non-member paying $80 a night for a studio could actually keep a DVC member from obtaining that studio at the 7-month window. I wish that there was some way that DVC could deal with this problem, like rentals only having a 6-month window. Sorry to say it would probably never work.

[This message was edited by eva on 03-16-01 at 10:17 AM.]

[Stephen]

The Member Guidelines states the following:

"Members are expressly prohibited from receiving compensation for engaging in any transfer activity."

I don't know if this rule applies to renting, but I am assuming so.

Does anyone know or have any comments?

[Firefighter Mickey]

That quote doesn't apply to renting. It applies to one member transfering points to another member. MS likewise does not police this and knows that members pay other members for points.

[Dean]

Stephen, if you check the board, there are recent discussions on renting. It definitley doesn't apply. Lets not have that discussion again.

Dean

[Bigcat]

Renting is allowed. We knew it when we bought our points. We all have the same opportunities to make reservations.

GET OVER IT!!!

Off-Site 2/92
Coronado Springs 11/98
Swan 3/00
MOWC 7/00
BWV 1/01
Hilton Head Isl DVC 3/01
BWV 11/01

[PamOKW]

Stephen is absolutely correct that the guidelines specifically mention not allowing compensation for member transfers of points. From what I've seen, that is exactly how many point rentals are done. Of course, it is hard for DVC to enforce and poses another "grey" area. But, the rule is there if they decide to enforce it.

[LisaR]

Wininbid,
You and I are in the minority but I could not agree with you more! The difference is, I AM a DVC member - so I am probably as unwelcome here as you are. I'll get over it.

DVC ISN'T only for DVC members. If it was, Disney guides would not be telling people that it is legal to rent your points to ANYONE - and they are saying that. Also, if it was illegal, I would guess these boards would not have a specific area set up for renting points.

The complaining that "RENTERS" (that is a dirty word on these boards) are getting rooms for so cheap is just life. It happens all the time - especially with traveling. Do you think that everyone on that airplane with you paid the same amount as you? There are people who paid $200 up to $1000 and everywhere in between. Because the person who paid $200 found a good deal, does that make them wrong??? Should they hold out for a more expensive price because it might upset someone?
Right now the going rate to rent points is $10. The people who are getting $10 pp had a choice to make. Use the points themselves or rent them for the going price. It was their choice. Nobody forced them to rent. If you want to ask $15 or $20 a point, go for it. However, when people can rent from most for $10 pp they would be stupid not to do it. Why are DVC members who don't rent out their points so concerned and upset that those renting are "only" getting $10 pp? So it is a good deal - how does that effect everyone else?
I am thrilled to be a DVC member and love vacationing. I don't intend on renting my points because I want to vacation. But, for those of you who are able to get a good deal through renting, GO FOR IT!!

Lisa

[fumipappa]

This topic made me think some issue...

I know some people complain about difficulty of reservation. However, does it caused by the reservation of renting points? I still think it is tough to make reservation at certain time even though Disney strictly say "NO" to renting points because it is just seasonal matter, not the type of people who book.

I concern different part..

By renting points, DVC members are opening their facility to everyone. Doesn't it mean any kind of rude people(ex. spring break party? don't rule out as it won't happen. anything is possible) can rent DVC facility and create big mess at DVC property anytime? If I own some property, I don't want anybody to make any mess on mine. yes, it is just rental property but most of people are trying to use 40yrs more! If I own DVC, I don't want unknown people to create any mess on my yard. I am not saying all people who rented points are rude. I've never met any rude people at onsite hotel(unfortunately at park, yes). But I believe almost of members are trying to use their property as long as poosible because they paid and committed. On the other hand, I can easily imagine that one time renter does not care about future of the property much because they
tend not to come back to same location.(If they want, they should be using any facility neatly)

Anyway, my post became too long. One point I can suggest from outside is to create a simple rule to all DVC membership. It is to take full responsiblity to mess of any kind of reservation they make. So, if DVC member rent his/her points
to non-DVC member to make resrevation, then if the guy create the mess, DVC member takes responsiblity for that mess...

[LisaR]

Fumipappa,
Are you really serious??

QUOTE: "One time renter does not care about the future of the property much because they tend not to come back to the same location (if they want, they should be using any facility neatly)"

Okay, lets see.... I stayed at an Embassy Suites recently just for a night away, let the kids swim, etc. However, I don't intend on going back so I trashed the place, made a huge mess - NOT!! If you or anyone else out there actually behave that way, that is very, very sad.

There is a recent post from someone who just returned from HH and the people upstairs were rude. I am so surprised that nobody has suggested that it was a "renter". You know us DVC members are perfect so it could not have been a member. As you state, the non DVC members "create a mess" and they are "rude people".

Somewhere, sometime ago, someone decided to rent their points. Others jumped on the bandwagon. It is now a fact of life. However, probably 98% of renters are wonderful people but the same could be said of DVC members. Not ALL ARE ANGELS. I would stake my life that there have been DVC members (or their own family members) who have stolen towels, or left a room in a mess. Having just recently bought DVC, I do not recall seeing in the contract anywhere where it said if you are a slob or rude person, when you sign this contract you will instantly become perfect. QUIT BASHING RENTERS!

Lisa

[fumipappa]

I think my wording was not enough I aporogize.
I thought I stated that I did not rule out "renter=devil" or "member=angel". Anybody can be devil and anybody can be angel. But I thought if people "own" something I thought they use it more carefully.

what I wanted to say is that members should take full responsiblity to what they did for their own property even they actually stay or not because they "own" it. Can you allow other DVC members to rent points to non-members and the non-members ruin your vacation time? I think it is not only the non-mebers fault but also the members fault because the mess is created because the member gave "his" points. I believe basically the reservation is "his" property...

Anyway, I am Japanese so my English might create miscommunication. So I apologize for that part.

[fumipappa]

of cource if members create mess, they MUST take responsiblity. I am not saying renters are always creating mess or if any mess created, it is renters fault. It is not my point.

If I own DVC, I am going to protect my right as much as possible. If somebody creates mess, I don't care the person is member or not. I want those rude people to stay away from property because I hate to see those rude behavior.

[baileybrad]

you know that is the answer then there won't but a few points available for renting and thus there will not be the chance to "steal" them. I am really glad that the "s word" got somebody fired up. When someone is paying value resort prices for deluxe accomodations then they are getting a "steal" thus the use of the word. But I will continue to do all that I can to bank and borrow my points so that it won't be me allowing this to happen. Planning, planning, planning will definitely keep down the large availability of $10 dollar points. And for those of you who may have forgotten that was the point of this thread...folks renting points at "value resort" prices.

[normr]

Yes that's perfect, please do, go stay off site at Vistana and make youself think you're getting a Disney vacation. And please don't try to sneak into OUR pools or facilities because you THINK you're staying onsite.

[PamOKW]

fumipappa. Thanks for giving your opinion. I agree with the idea that by having no restrictions on rentals there is the possibility of opening things up for abuse. I'm not against renting and certainly not against having the ability to let others use the resort when we aren't there. But, I do feel DVC has to monitor how rentals are being conducted and be sure that someone is taking responsibility. My concern stems from a friend's Pompano condo (complete ownership, not a timeshare). Problems with the owners children having Spring Break bashes ended up with them needing to put in requirements that made it impossible for young adult children to use their parent's condos for any purpose. I don't want to see a situation like that at DVC. DVC being sure that commercial rental isn't taking place and cracking down on room occupancy (even if it negatively effects members) are two ways to be sure things stay under control.

[disneygals]

Thank You! Thank You! for my first personal slam on the DIS boards. I assume you're referring to me because I posted that I own at Vistana and was trying to show that a 2br for $6000-$7500 onsite may not compare to a $750 2 br Vistana for a true bargain hunter. Yes, you can have a true Disney vacation staying off-site, even without the little Mickey soaps.

And at what point did I indicate on my fake Disney vacations at the Vistana that I sneak into Disney pools?

[eva]

I definitely like the idea of making the member that is renting the points out responsible for any damage to a unit that has been rented out or given as a gift. This would definitely make me think twice about renting out points to people I don't know. I think that we should be responsible for items that are damaged or stolen while we are there or while someone is using our points to stay there. I find things missing in the units every trip. I usually call and have them replaced. I always wonder if there is someone being charged for the replacements. But I have never heard of anyone being charged for damaged or stolen items. Just so I don't get bashed, I am not blaming renters for any missing or damaged items. It could be members just as easily. I just think that DVC needs to start making members take more responsibilty for the condition that the units are left in. If I go to the Embassy Suites and trash the room they have my credit card number and I will be charged accordingly.

[BetsyB]

I agree with Fumipappa and Eva -- the DVC member responsible for the room reservation needs to be responsible for any damage or missing items during the length of stay -- whether they are staying themselves, giving to a friend or renting to a stranger. Eva questioned who paid for missing or damaged items -- I would assume that we all do with our dues every year. In essence, we are probably paying for someone else's abuse or neglect or apathy. –

[TnRobin]

Folks, so far this post has stayed away from directly attacking another poster, I have noticed a few post which are getting close to the edge.

Please keep personal attacks out of the post.

http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Resort/4382/jane.gif


Disney Vacation Club Board Co-Moderator
DVC and Cruise Chat Hostess
Cruise Board List Mistress

<font size=4 color=blue font face="Comic Sans MS">Robin

[fkj2]

I think that there is a blanket $$$amount figured into our annual fees for wear-and-tear on the units. If extreme damage was done to the unit, I would hope that MS would charge the last occupant accordingly. It's a scarry thought that anyone would purposfully destroy any hotel room; that we don't have any better behavior than that. It's like the bankruptcy laws; we're all paying for those losses too in the form of higher prices.

And about MS patrolling the reservations....how could anyone realistically expect them to do that on top of their regular work of making ressies, priority seatings, shows, etc? I'm sure that policing is not in their job description

[Firefighter Mickey]

It makes sense to me, that since it's generally members staying at OKW (regardless of what anyone would try to have people believe), that the missing items from units are largely because of the members.

Maybe we should start by making the members responsible for items that turn up missing after their stay first.

[TrudyZ]

As all this started witht he concern over $10 pp; I have been looking at this as a renter (with a calculator) trying to figure out how much I would be willing to pay.

For all the risks involved (and the lack of housekeeping--available at $25-$40 extra a night), I don't think most renters would want to pay something near the price of Disney.

As the price rises, three issues surface:

1. Rentals will probably be exclusively limited to weeknights (Sun-Thur); as the increased point price drive weekend or even weekly (7 day) prices too close to Disney prices.

2. Disney's seasons don't follow DVCs--some of DVC magic and dream are disney's value season. So, with the increase in the price per point; certain times of the year DVC could be close to or more expensive than Disney.

3. If anyone was considering renting a larger unit (for example 2 bedroom) weekly; by the time they rent the points at the increased cost, they might as well think about buying in.

So, I guess what I am saying is that as the prices rise, I will be sharpening my pencil and figuring out just how good of a deal it really is. Since I am a weekly rental person and not just weekdays, my breakpoint of going straight to Disney for the ressie may be sooner than others.

[normr]

I'm just pointing out that with people renting points at such a cheap rate that they may just not even bother buying in when they can rent points from someone and get all the benefits of our "homes" Like I said below, don't their cards say DVC member when they check in.

In a new post there is a renter who is now calling their upcoming DVC stay "GOING HOME".


See, people don't have to buy anymore, they can have all the benefits we bought in for for about the same price as they could stay at a value resort.

Do their card s say DVC member too ?

What would these people pay if they could only buy from Disney? Would it equal to $20-$25 a point?, I see they're getting better rates than we do even with our 25% off DVC member rate.s

[This message was edited by normr on 03-17-01 at 01:45 PM.]

[normr]

When someone posts they are a Vistana owner and that a $750 Vistana rental is better than staying onsite is a slam to DVC and does a disservice to DVC and it's owners. Do these people tell their friends to look into DVC instead of other timeshares?

And then the point "And that MAYBE the $10 per point might be justified," It's obvious that renters want the luxury of deluxe accomodations but aren't willing to pay for it, Then they should then do us all a favor and stay at these bargain timeshares.

The point here is that most of us here feel that $10 per point is way to low. And it's not our responsibility to insure that non-owners get a discount vacation, That's exactly why they have timeshares like Vi stana.

The people have already made it up in their minds that staying at Vistana is JUST LIKE owning a DVC property by buying there. I'm sorry to tell you this (It's not!!!)

And on another point, which goes hand in hand with this is that I am tired of hearing about people staying offsite and thinking just because they boug ht passes for the parks and they are staying at some offsite motel,hotel or timeshare, that it entitles them to go to any onsite hotel they choose and use the facilities there.

Here is the quote that I have responded to:


(QUOTE) "There are beautiful 2 br timeshares (Vistana, which I own) that you can rent for $750 a week. If I'm truly bargain hunting, I'd choose that. But I MAY be able to justify paying you $10 a pt for the luxury of staying onsite at DVC."


But you do agree it is a luxury to stay onsite, here in your post, so why are we out of line attempting to ensure that our DVC homes remain a cut above anything else in the area and that the price of that luxury of being onsite is secured.

[This message was edited by normr on 03-17-01 at 01:16 PM.]

[TrudyZ]

Aw, Come on Norm, give these people a break. You need to read their post a little closer. What they said was:

"Thanks to a member renting to a non-member DH and I are heading "home" in ten days to join at VWL. We're staying there, like I said, through renting points and can't wait to become members."

Why are you raining on their parade? They say they are buying and becoming DVC members when they get there. If they cut the check when they are there, won't they be "home"? So the worst crime these people commit is that they were a little overzealous??! They seem to be truly excited and exuberant about joining DVC--I sure hope they don't see your post.

[disneygals]

The point of my post was that renters MAY not be coming in droves to rent a DVC for $20 a point because it may no longer be a bargain, except for possibly a studio at the lowest points in Jan, etc. Which is why I said that $6000-$7500 for a 2 br is certainly not a bargain. It may be less than Disney direct, but if a "true bargain hunter" was looking, they'd pass.

I also said that I was a DVC wannabe and I quite understand the perks of staying onsite. There are tons of other Orlando timeshares, hotels, etc and I just don't believe that thousands are descending on your pools daily. Yes, there are idiots who break rules, but why did I get the brunt of your anger just because I own at an inferior timeshare?

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, but reread your original post, it was not kind.
People who stay off-site don't have "cooties".

[wininbid]

Like TrudyZ just said, I hope those poor people don't read your post. Now a non-member can't use the word "home" until after they have bought into the DVC. This whole thread is amusing the heck out of me. I think I see what is really going on. A bunch of you are just "acting" like selfish, mean, inconsiderate people, to try to discourage us "messy, rude, stealing renters" from renting into your "homes". I'm glad I realize that those people are just acting, and not really like this in the real world. Well maybe the acting job will work for those that are trying. Lots of people will probably reconsider renting your "homes" so they won't risk the chance of being in a room right next to some of you. Consider the possibility that some of these "theiving" renters might just be renting a week or so to check out things and see if buying in is right for them. Why don't you show them the same gratitude as somone that has just signed the check to DVC.
Let me see, Disney refers to these resorts in the DVC, as "Home Away from Home" resorts. I'm going to OKW this summer, and yes, I'M GOING HOME!!! I too can say that because Disney says that I can!
One more point. I'm going to go to a very beautiful, plush resort on the grounds of Disney. Because I am renting and not an owner, I am going to tear the place up. I guess everybody that rents rooms at all the other Disney resorts, is tearing them up too because they don't own into them. That is such an immature and totally ludicrous comment to say.
Sorry to all those DVC members that are truly special people. There are a bunch of you though that need to think back to the reasons that made you first buy into the DVC. Obvioulsy it was for the profit!!

[eva]

I think that some of you are really missing the point. When you join DVC it is a special club. That is why it is called "Disney Vacation Club". If you notice we always wait until a person has actually decided to buy before giving him/her a big "Welcome Home". If you are a member you have actually purchased a piece of property that belongs to you. Renters are only guests. That does not mean that renters are inferior people. It just means that they have not taken the risk of investing a large portion of their hard earned money into purchasing the club. I really do not mind having renters at any of the DVC resorts. What I do mind is that they are not taking the same risk that members have and are actually receiving priority over members at non-home resorts. It would really burn me to find out that the 1-bedroom that I have been waitlisted for since the 7-month window actually went to a person renting for $250 a night. I wish that there was some way that DVC could regulate renting and gifting rooms. Maybe they could say that you can not make a reservation until the 7-month window unless it under the purchaser's name. Then we would all be playing on the same ball field at least.

[Bigcat]

What difference does it make if it is the member, a guest, or a renter actually occupying the room? The DVC member still had to make the reservation using his points, that are equal to all other members points in rights and priveledges. This whole argument is moot. Renter or not, it is still the member's decision on how to use the points. What should any other member care what is done with my points as long as I ( and my guests ) are obeying the rules we all agreed to when we bought?

On the other hand, $10/pt is too low...charge more when you rent your points.

And, unlike my previous post, THIS is my final comment on the subject!

Off-Site 2/92
Coronado Springs 11/98
Swan 3/00
MOWC 7/00
BWV 1/01
Hilton Head Isl DVC 3/01
BWV 11/01

[AnnK]

At least now we ( DVC resorts) are being priced with the MODERATES......

These are excerpts from the post. If you wish to read it it's "Help me make it happen."

"she wants to take the grandkids 4&6, my husband and I to Disney." ( She is the Grandmother)

"I have spent days researching, buying info books, purchasing the DC, ...all to find bargains " ( "I" is the person setting the trip up)

"I want the value 49.00 room rate." ( This is a recent promo rate for All-Star)

This is a reply from another poster on the board.

. "Another suggestion is to rent points from a DVC member, check out their rental site on this board. I havent done this but people swear by it as a way to stay in a deluxe for the cost of a moderate."

I am not going to get caught up in the renters vs owners. I can't believe how posts get twisted and changed. DVC members SHOULD and COULD get more for their ROOMS ( or points ), the ONLY people who seem to disagree on this point are those who rent, and you can guess why they feel that way.

[TrudyZ]

Oh eva, not you too:

"I think that some of you are really missing the point. When you join DVC it is a special club. That is why it is called "Disney Vacation Club". If you notice we always wait until a person has actually decided to buy before giving him/her a big "Welcome Home"."

Read their post again. THEY HAVE ACTUALLY DECIDED TO BUY! They are going with checkbook in hand! So, perhaps they are not familiar with the exact rituals of the "special club"--is it such a social faux paus they committed that they deserved to be slammed??!. Why aren't people happy for them? What type of "special club" would chastise those just about to join? Seems pretty petty to me.

I too am a renter that rented for the sole purpose of validating my decision to buy into DVC. I too am going with check in hand. The only difference is that that poster knew that they are buying at WLVs. I am not sure yet if I will like that facility or will buy a resale at OKW or BWVs. Since this is such as "special club", do you have a special section for us who are tainted from previously renting? (There I go again, blowing all chances of being "welcomed home").

And on the "special club" thing. Hey, if it makes DVC members happy to think that way--go ahead. But let's give this some perspective: The only "qualification" is about $10K+, and that can be financed (can't even buy a new car for that these days); I'm not knocking DVC, just that calling it a "special club" is quite a stretch.

On your concerns about renters getting your reservations. I really think that the activity on these boards--which seems to be mostly limited to DVCers who have extra points that they can't use, not the sale of actual reservations; is pretty benign. What ought to bother you is the rental activity by Owners that have the appearance of "rent for profit" that goes on outside of these boards. These rentals are based on a flat rate for the reseration. They are always for weeknights and always for studios, and usually for the lower DVC seasons--greatest profit margin for the Owner. Take a gander at Ebay. Just for fun the other day, I checked it out. Here is what I found:

There are no less than 8 current listings--all for 5 weeknights (Sun-Thur) or less; all in a studio; and one is posted as Labor Day week rental (the 5 weeknights). If you go thru the closed auctions, in the last three weeks (since Feb. 23rd) there have been an additional 21 auctions--every one of them does not include Friday/Sat nights. In fact, FIVE OF THESE AUCTIONS WERE FOR CHRISTMAS OR THANKSGIVING. So, in the past 3 weeks there is a total of 29 or so auctions--each for weeknights and all for studios.

Personally, it is none of my business what these people do. I just thought that I would bring this to your attention. It is not the renters on Ebay requesting only weeknights, I am sure most would be happy to be offered weekends. It is the Owners wanting the greatest profit margin packaging them this way.

AnnK, and on the $10 pp--go ahead (as I have said MANY times before), charge what you would like. In fact, if you think or know that you can get more than $10 pp, you had better hurry. We all know that the economy is softening, the amount of discretionary money around is quickly decreasing, and such extras as vacations, etc., are always the first to go. Look at Disney itself. I have never seen as many deals and discounts on rooms for this time of year before. Don't you wonder why?

[PamOKW]

TrudyZ there is so much going on with this thread it could make your head spin!

Renting is allowed and under some circumstances I can see that it does no harm. I do not hold the people doing the renting responsible for the system, they are the innocent bystanders. Accountability for damage by members or their guests (or renters) is something DVC should strictly enforce, as they would at any other resort. I hope that they are doing so.

My concern is exactly what you pointed out about E-Bay. The rules of the game are changing due to E-Bay. I want DVC to be sure that this type of rental will continue to do no harm and to verify that it is a personal use of points by individual members and not any type of rental agent business. Protection of the majority should be the concern.

I was looking at these E-Bay auctions today as well. I don't quite get what some of them are doing. They lay out the low rent times and stipulate they are only interested in renting Su-Th time slots. But, there is no guarantee that they'll be able to book the time the person who wins the bid desires. They say "subject to availability". If they cannot come up with the date the person wants, is the person let out of the deal? Doesn't seem fair for someone to bid expecting them to come through on the suggested date and resort and then "bait and switch". I also wouldn't be happy if after I won a bid I was told sorry, can't get that date after all. Just seems weird.

[TrudyZ]

PamOKW,

From what I can tell on Ebay nothing is guaranteed except for the HOLIDAY times. According to the advertisements, the Owners already have the reservations for these and are selling these prime time reservations to the highest bidder (who meets their reserve, of course). I am not an Owner yet (so therefore it is none of my business), but if I was, that would sure rub me the wrong way.

As for availability, I just rented a studio about 2 1/2 months out. Tried three different 7-day weeks for any of the on-sites (WLV, BWV, or OKW); only OKW came up available for any of the weeks (2 of the 3). I tried to get BWV standard or preferred studio at 9 1/2 months out (10 day stretch for anytime within a 6 week period)--it wasn't available. With renting, there is no "waitlisting". I think if you were bidding on the Ebay listings for BWVs, you have a pretty good chance of being disappointed.

[Peterd]

I believe the thread was originally sent out for members, but I can see why some part-time members feel the need to post. Don't want to lose the biggest discount Disney (oops wrong) that anyone has ever offered.
When some say there will always be someone to sell you their points for $10 or less per point, Is way off. You're getting lucky now, but not for long.
Renters/bargain hunters, more power to you! I have no problem with you getting someone to rent their membership to you for the extremely low rate that some of the DVc members are willing to unload their points.
To be the buyer what a deal! You get DVC discounts/ on-site, and you get the room for the price of the All-star or the Vistana. Another thing, don't EVEN compare the Vistana to any DVC property. Not even close!,but that's another thread.
I think it's funny about this thread. Dvc members are just trying to tell the OTHER DVC members that they are selling themselves too short. If they don't listen to us, it's up to them. Why would a non-member get involved in this discussion? Oh that's why, it might work. I think it's funny that about 98% of the people that have a problem with some of the members trying to tell other members that they are selling their rooms way too low, are The renters/bargain hunters. For the other 2% (DVC members)with the problem of us SUGGESTING that they are selling to low, It's ok, you don't have to feel guilty and yell "leave me alone, I'll do what I want", you can still sell your points for as little as you want. It's still your investment. Don't read anymore,it will upset you. If you want, give your rooms away to family, or Donate them to charity. You'll get more back in taxes, and it'll make you feel better. I know "leave me alone."
When the non DVC members post that the $10 per point is the set price and going lower because of the economy is ridiculous.
There are reasons why the members rent:
1.Some family member canceled a resv., so they have to get rid of the rooms or lose them. This doesn't happen that much,and the member can usually cancel and save the points.
2. Someone has just experienced a major change in their lives such as divorce/change of job/or some other misfortune in the year. These people will probably wind up selling their membership in the near future, or only rent for a year or two, until things return to the way they were.
3. They forgot to bank and are just looking to get back their dues.
4.Are the people looking to either sell their membership soon or are looking to make a profit.
Maybe, Some of the sellers could enlighten us as to why they sell/rent.
For the renter/bargain hunter to say that the price will remain the same is only wishful thinking.
Call for the next few months for a resv. at a DVc resort. SOLD OUT! I'm not saying for the members to scalp (like half price is scalping), but you can if you want.

[This message was edited by Peterd on 03-18-01 at 09:46 AM.]

[eva]

Trudy,
I'm glad that you are going down to check out the resorts before you purchase. Knowing which resort to purchase at is very important. When you come back after purchasing I'm sure that you will receive a hearty Welcome Home. But if you read a number of other posts, especially on the Budget Board, then you will find that you and a few others that post here are the exception to the rule. I really do not believe that most renters are going with the goal of purchasing while there. Like I said before, I really don't care if members rent out their points at all. And I'm not concerned with why they are renting their points or why others are renting from them. But if a member is renting out their points then I would assume that means that they have no intention of using the points themselves. So they would either bank the points, lose the points, or take a last minute vacation. None of those circumstances would interfere with other members making reservations at the 7-month window. I guess that I am just frustrated because it is getting very difficult to make reservations anymore at the 7-month window. I love my home resort and stay there most of the time making reservations at the 11-month window. But part of the supposed flexibility of DVC was the ability to occasionally stay at other DVC resorts. I have no idea if renting has become one of the reasons that this option is becoming more and more difficult. I guess that I just feel that members should have preference over renters. I'm not trying to be snobby, I just feel that we have socked a lot of money into DVC and when renters that pay $80 a night are snatching up reservations before we even get a chance I just wonder why we purchased. Maybe we should have rented too and then we could get that 11-month window at the resort of our choice without taking any chances. I hope that renters enjoy their vacations. I have no problems with what they are doing. They are just going after the best deal they can. No one can fault them at that. And I really can't fault the members that are renting out their points if DVC is going to allow it. I just think that DVC has to do something to insure that the members are receiving some preference over renters, or what's the point of buying at all?

[normr]

Then I apologize, but the point I was trying to get across was and I'm sure as a timeshare owner too that if this trend continues with renters, we're only hurting ourselves.

If you decide to buy in to DVC, we'll all welcome you with open arms and give you a hearty "Welcome Home",.

Let us know what you decide.. Good luck in convincing your husband.

[Cary]

Excuse me, but is it legal with Disney to sell your point's to people (who want a vacation)who are not DVC Member's ? We are from England, but my husband say's that he thought it was against the rule's of our contract to let anyone use it or pay to use it who were not family or friend's.

[PamOKW]

Cary your husband is correct that the "spirit" of the DVC contract is to allow rental to family and friends. However, the wording is such that people have started to rent to anyone and some for profit. The clause is that it should be personal "non-commercial" use and there is debate over what that means. Those who rent out also argue that DVC can't prove the person isn't a family or friend. So, it is legal but the question is at what point it becomes a commercial endeavor. It is up to DVC to determine this.

[Cary]

Wow Pam i am impressed,at the speed of your reply that is!!!I have no problem with people renting out their point's, infact i only found out about this recently.I wish that i had known sooner as there has been several times when we have been a few point's short for the vacation we wanted and have had to alter our dates to fit in with our point's available.It would be great to see a board where DVC members got first refusal of renting these point's,i suppose it would be too much work on Disney's part to operate such a thing and regulate it on behalf of member's? I must say it does'nt feel quite the same "home away from home" as it used to at OKW, most of the people that i have talked to there over the last couple of year's are actually just renting there.What happened to the member's get together's? has this just been abandoned for the sake of the breakfast invitation's that have been set up to get you to purchase more point's

[rsinj]

.

[AnnK]

Quote

"AnnK, and on the $10 pp--go ahead (as I have said MANY times before), charge what you would like. In fact, if you think or know that you can get more than $10 pp, you had better hurry. We all know that the economy is softening, the amount of discretionary money around is quickly decreasing, and such extras as vacations, etc., are always the first to go. Look at Disney itself. I have never seen as many deals and discounts on rooms for this time of year before. Don't you wonder why? "

I DON'T NEED TO HURRY.
I do not rent my points. I have not had anything happen to me that would cause me to have the need to rent my points. I bought with the full intention of using my MEMBERSHIP to vacation at Disney. I DO KNOW people who rent their extra points, they never charge per point, they charge per room, and it's less than Disney. They have NO PROBLEM getting people to pay. In fact they always have people waiting for rooms. I believe the per point system was set up for DVC MEMBERS to EXCHANGE points, what is the point of charging a person who rents per point? Do they have point charts?
I am not surprised that you are challenging the price raise, hey I am not happy with the mid-east raising the cost of oil, but the truth is they can get us to pay more, and DVC members can get more for their investment too.

[disneygals]

Normr....thanks and I apologize if my opinion was not stated clearly in my original post.

disneygals

[diaman]

In response to eBay and renting points there. We own one of the largest internet business in our business field. We are eBay powersellers and earned recognition from them as well as New York Times, Bussiness Week, and Time magazines. Anyways, we sold some of our extra points last year and charged the renters on a per night basis. We rented out to her for $190/per night when disney was charging $295. This lady was soooo happy she got this deal! We worked with her on availibity, since that was the trade off for the discounted rate she could have received from Disney. The rental price we received was a lot more than $10! Since alot of people are weary of internet transactions, renters with a strong internet backgrounds can get higher prices. Would you rent from a eBay seller with a zero feedback and seems a little shady for $10/pp or a established seller with high feedback & 100% positive track record for a couple $$ more? I'd pay the couple $$ more for the piece of mind that I will have a reservations when I get to WDW. In any case, you can't get room deals through Disney like what DVC members are charging. Disney dosen't discount much for anything! Like room rates and especially ticket prices. You can't find discount ticket prices in the percentage off that DVC memebers are charging for the rooms, even on ebay! Just my humble opinion and past experience :)

[Figaro30]

With all this debate...maybe Disney shouldn't have allowed DVC to be rented out publicly.

http://lisasclipart.bizland.com/images/figaro1.jpg
'81 - Cont.
'88 - Disneyland
'89 - Maingate East
'91 - CBR
'94 - CBR
'95 - CBR
'98 - BC
'00 - WL
'01 - OKW

[mrsdon]

I've tried to stay out of this debate, and now its 6 pages long.
We recently rented 55 points to a stranger and it was through the rent/trade board. It doensn't matter if a member is staying or if the member made the ressie for a non-member and rented those points the room is taken. The beauty of DVC is the flexabilty of being able to stay at diffeent resorts.
My points are mine and mine alone and what I do with them is my business. I dont get angry when I cant get the dates I want. Thats the breaks. Try getting ressies at a hotel in the super bowl city during the big game. Or the Olympics. These things just happen.

[Dizzy4Dizney]

Hi,
Being a newbie, I was interested in the point renting. I figured out it costs me about $11.50 a point per year, so I would sell my points for about $13.00. I can see why there are differnt amounts to rent out the points.

I was surprised at the low amount of $10.00. I'd rather give them to a family member or friend than sell them that low.

The point renting is a great idea for us DVC members who might need just a few extra points for certain vacations. I don't want it to go away!!!

DVC Member 1999
BWV 03-2001
BW 09-1999
ASR 02-1998

[one_cat]

I've also been very quiet on this subject - mainly because I just rented out 130+ points. I feel the same way many others feel that I'd like to get as much as I can for the points I rent. However, I didn't have a whole lot of choice. If I waited around to find someone who was willing to give me 13 or 20.00 per point I would have lost them all and would have had nothing to show for the family cancellation. In addition, I work and couldn't spend a lot of time chasing buyers. I wanted them sold as soon as possible so I could get on with the rest of my life. Renting points takes a lot of time and emails. Not something to be taken lightly.

3 days after I posted mine for sale someone else posted theirs at 7.25/point. Those points had an expiration next February - if you can believe it. Talk about someone who could have gotten some real money for their points. However it put me in a position where I felt I had even less say over my asking price. After all if I wanted 15.00 there was a person right down the road willing to take 1/2 with less restrictions.

I didn't buy DVC with any intention of every renting points but after having to cancel a ressie with no way to bank the points I really didn't have a choice.

Cheers!!

O

Children are like phonecalls - they always come in pairs.

[wininbid]

You're right, the value of the points is more than $10 each. Actually it is $72 per point. So, why not rent out your points for $72 each, then you could recoup your investment quicker!

[rsinj]

.

[PamOKW]

OKW for less than $7 per point! That's the rate posted over on the Resort Board. Someone got a studio for a weekend in July for $169 per night. At 27 points per night even with tax they are under $7 and get maid service included.

Unless you are backed into a corner on point usage I still think your best bet and value is to use them yourself for your vacation at WDW or elsewhere.

(I just realized this isn't clear. The $169 rate is direct from Disney.)

[This message was edited by PamOKW on 03-20-01 at 10:53 AM.]

[ckr]

Dizzy4Disney wrote:
"I was surprised at the low amount of $10.00. I'd rather give them to a family member or friend than sell them that low."

I think that is the point. At $10 per point, members are more likely to use the VACATION CLUB as that, and not a commercial endeavor.

mrsdon wrote:
"It doensn't matter if a member is staying or if the member made the ressie for a non-member and rented those points the room is taken."

But the rental activity being seen does change the dynamics of what type of units are being used and what days of the week. Most are for studios and for Sun-Thurs only. If you were to use your points for your own vacation, you may be more inclined to stay longer and/or in a larger unit. By using points to rent a Sun-Thurs Studio, you would be able to do multiple ressies and rentals. This will impact others who want to use their vacation points to stay for a full week. [Note: We just did an impromtu trip to BWV last weekend. Called Wednesday afternoon and got Pref View Studio for Friday and Saturday. Could not get anything at BWV for Thursday. Is this due to renting or the weekend flight of members due to the point structure? Don't know. Just found it interesting....]

mrsdon also wrote:
"The beauty of DVC is the flexabilty of being able to stay at diffeent resorts."

That is one of the arguments against renting. Some feel that the units at the resorts that are not their home are being snatched up by members for renting, thus not leaving them available for other DVC members to trade into at the 7-month mark.

one_cat wrote:
"I feel the same way many others feel that I'd like to get as much as I can for the points I rent. However, I didn't have a whole lot of choice. If I waited around to find someone who was willing to give me 13 or 20.00 per point I would have lost them all and would have had nothing to show for the family cancellation. ... Renting points takes a lot of time and emails. Not something to be taken lightly."

This type of situation is exactly what renting is for. A rent or lose situation. $10 is better than nothing.

My vote is to keep $10/point. Don't reward those who are playing the system for profit, but leave a system available to help out members when they get in a bind. JMHO