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View Full Version : Does your 4 year old use a carseat on the plane?


brergnat
01-16-2010, 12:13 PM
We are flying to WDW from California (LOOOONG FLIGHT!).

I will have a *just* turned 4 year old with me (as well as a 5.5 year old). He is a bit of a defiant fellow (understatement!) but he's becoming increasingly aware of wanting to be like his big brother, and do things like he does. However, he tends to be very clingy, and gets scared of things often. When that happens, he wants to jump in my lap for a hug.

I'm at a loss of what to do for the flight. He's flown before, but just once. He rode in his giant, heavy carseat, and did fine. But, that was only a one hour flight. He couldn't really play with toys or watch anything on the dvd player, because he wasn't able to put the tray down and use it (him + seat left no room for that). He was very happy to have his carseat, and did not want to sit on the seat next to me during snack time. This was about 9 months ago.

So, what would you do? I am worried that he might refuse to sit on the seat, or to STAY nicely seated and buckled in when we need him to be. He is too big to sit in my lap for takeoff, and he can be very difficult in the throes of a tantrum. He has a speech/language delay, so has a hard time comprehending reasons for things (long explanations get lost on him) and expressing how he feels. But, he might do just fine. He rides the bus from school everyday and sits on the seat with lap belt only and does great (but it's only a 15 min drive).

On the other hand, we will be on two long flights (3+ hours each), and I want him to be able to use the tray, play, watch dvd's, etc. without feeling confined and be able to move a bit more than when he is strapped down fully.

What has been your experience with a 3-4 year old in JUST the seat, no carseat?

We really want to minimize the stuff we have to carry through the airport, especially. It was VERY hard last time to deal with the two kids, carryons, and the giant heavy carseat. We are not renting a car, so no need for the seat upon arrival.

npmommie
01-16-2010, 12:18 PM
My 4 yo sat without a car seat last time we flew, 2 1/2 hour flight............not a problem, he had a window seat, and stuff to keep him occupied, but just looking out the window on takeoff kept him occupied for a bit.......LOL
he buckled and unbuckled when he had to.
I would let him sit without the seat, bring toys and items to occupy him for sure!

Mouse House Mama
01-16-2010, 12:23 PM
I don't fly with any carseats. At 4 I would definitely not bring one. I would think that you should be able to entertain him with no problems at that age.

Hannathy
01-16-2010, 01:18 PM
I never flew with car seats so my kids always did fine with just a belt.

Truly I can't imagine having a 4 yr old in a car seat on an airplane. That would be very tight quarters! And if you do then you absolutely HAVE to have a member of your traveling party sit in front of him and get kicked in the lower back because there is no way a 4 yr old could sit in a car seat and NOt kick the seat in front of him.

I would just tell him it is just like the bus that when he is seated he needs his belt on end of story.

DisneyMomma81
01-16-2010, 03:24 PM
At 4 years old my DD flew in a car seat, and back then she only flew from SLC ~ S. CA - her travel seat was a Cosco Scenera (light weight, cheap *$40*) I'm sad that she's now too big for it ~ it's a great travel/2nd seat. Her main seat (now) is a Britax Wizard but I wouldn't fly with that, now if she'll be in a vehicle with seat belts after a flight I gate check a back less booster for her. So yes from CA to FL I'd bring along a lighter seat assuming your kid fits in it ~ the Scenera has a 40 lbs weight limit and somewhat shorter height limit ~ kids are too tall for their seat when their shoulders are above the harness slot(s) ~ **but when a little one is rear facing their shoulder should be above the harness slots.

stacy6552
01-16-2010, 05:10 PM
Airplane seats are more shallow than the seats in cars. Unless your child is very small, he should be in on the plane without a carseat.

pooh4evr
01-16-2010, 06:09 PM
NO there isn't enough room - and boosters aren't allowed. Our then 2 yr old flew last month in just the seat and did great- she had her belt on and just sat there like a big kid with her sisters, watched her DVD (Tom and Jerry of all things!) IT was great!

MinnieForMe
01-16-2010, 06:16 PM
This year will be the first year we fly without a car seat in the cabin of the plane and our daughter will be 4! Our friend is a Southwest pilot and he never carries on a carseat for his 3 year old. As long as your child will stay buckled in, you will be fine.

We did carry on a carseat (Graco) for our son until he was 6 so they do fit. He was the type that needed his car seat to fall asleep on the plane so it just made things easier.

Cedarmom
01-16-2010, 06:38 PM
Have you thought about getting or renting a CARES harness? That is what I've done with my 3.75 yo and my 4.5 yo (well, at the time) on the plane when no seat was needed at the other end.

Just a thought. It will make them feel more secure than just the regular airplane seatbelt. I will say my 3.75 yo took it upon himself to unbuckle the lap belt portion quite few times so I had to stay on top of him.

At those ages when they were in their carseats on the plane, we brought clipboards along for them to bear down on for coloring, etc, and they just held the dvd player in their lap. Worked great.

hillview
01-16-2010, 08:20 PM
My 4 year old has done ok on planes without a carseat. That said it depends on your child!
/hillary

brergnat
01-16-2010, 11:05 PM
My son is too tall for CARES. Already looked into that. My main concern is that he might NOT keep his belt on. I'm leaning towards no seat at this point. Thanks everyone.

brentm3
01-16-2010, 11:58 PM
My son is too tall for CARES. Already looked into that. My main concern is that he might NOT keep his belt on. I'm leaning towards no seat at this point. Thanks everyone.

We used our CARES on my oldest when she was 5 (98th %tile height.) Unless I missed something in the instructions that says not to, we just kept moving the shoulder harness strap higher and higher without incident.

Feb will be our first flight without carseats (YAY!!) and without strollers (YAY again!!!) DD7 in lap belt, DS4 in CARES (he's also 98th %tile height...)

my2minnies
01-17-2010, 07:03 AM
The Graco high back 5 pt harness/booster will fit nicely in the seat, but I think it is up to you whether you really need it or not.

I have twin 4 year old boys and they have always used carseats up until they turned 4. I used the seats for the reasons you mentioned. I wanted to relax on the plane and not worry about them moving around and such.

On our last trip they had just turned 4 and we decided to leave the seats home. I was nervous but they actually did great. They had been on an airplane so many times that they knew what was expected of them.

Good luck! Let me tell you--it was SOOOO nice not having to carry two carseats around with us on our last vacation!!

Erica09M
01-17-2010, 09:20 AM
If I was flying with a 4 year old, yes they would have their 5 point harness seat with them. I am actually torn about our upcoming trip because my daughter will be 4 the day we leave and turn 5 the next day. My rule for my family is: children 4 & under in car seat on plane, children 24 months and under rear facing on plane.

It's not required, but they recommend children who weigh under 40 pounds to use a car seat on the plane. I have seen several pictures of children using a forward facing 5 point harnessing seat at this age and there is plenty of room. In fact, the Graco Nautilus (which is a not so small seat) fits great on a plane. I'll post a picture if I can get permission from a parent ;)

NO there isn't enough room - and boosters aren't allowed. Our then 2 yr old flew last month in just the seat and did great- she had her belt on and just sat there like a big kid with her sisters, watched her DVD (Tom and Jerry of all things!) IT was great!

A just turned 4 year old shouldn't be in a booster anyway, so that shouldn't be the problem.

syudelson
01-17-2010, 09:37 AM
My son will be 6 when we go in May and it will be his first trip without a carseat on the plane. He just switched to a booster several months ago because it took him that long to hit the 40 pound mark. I oldest daughter switched about the same age as I recall and my 2 year old will absolutely be in a carseat. Our rule is if you have to sit in a carseat in a car, you have to sit in one on a plane.

jodifla
01-17-2010, 09:49 AM
I stopped when DS turned 3. The car seat took up SO much room -- his legs were jammed into the seat in front of him.

PearlySwan
01-17-2010, 11:11 AM
DS, now 4yr. old, was only 3.5 yrs. old when we went to WDW June 09. He isn't particularly tall (he's in the 55% height percentile). We didn't take a car seat with us. He did just fine on the plane both ways. Since we didn't drive, and only used WDW transportation, we didn't need to bring a car seat.

tam626
01-17-2010, 02:08 PM
Our ds was 3 on our first trip & we did'nt do a car seat. He is super active & somewhat defiant but the portable dvd player worked great at keeping him in his seat. We did only have a 2 hour flight though.

brergnat
01-17-2010, 06:41 PM
We used our CARES on my oldest when she was 5 (98th %tile height.) Unless I missed something in the instructions that says not to, we just kept moving the shoulder harness strap higher and higher without incident.

Feb will be our first flight without carseats (YAY!!) and without strollers (YAY again!!!) DD7 in lap belt, DS4 in CARES (he's also 98th %tile height...)


FYI, from the Cares website (in the FAQ section):
What are the upper weight and height limits for children to use CARES?
The current upper limit of the CARES certification is 44 lbs and 40 inches tall.

mamaLori05
01-17-2010, 07:33 PM
The last time we went to Disney my then 8 mo old and just turning 3 year old rode on the plane without any car seats. Our plane wasn't full and we happened to have a seat next to us open, so when we weren't taking off or landing, our then 8mo old sat in the seat with a seat belt just like his big sister. We had a dvd player for each of them, and they did fabulous!!! They watched their movies, played some games, colored, looked out the window, and were easily entertained. I did pack a carry on bag full of activities and things that were "new" to them, which really seemed to help!

northriver
01-17-2010, 08:20 PM
I'm still flying with a car seat, my daughter is almost 5. We have not had any problems. The Britax seats can be a bit to install/uninstall on the plane, lately we've been flying with a Radian by Sunshine kids which is a very heavy seats but it folds, it has backpack style carry straps, it installs/uninstalls super easily in the plane AND it has a low profile, so my daughter has plenty of legroom and can use the seat back tray.

We travel by car quite a lot and my daugher is most comfortable in the plane in her own carseat. She knows she has to be calm and not get out of the seat, plus she is just more comfortable, she can rest her head on the side of the carseat and sleep. Not to mention kids are safer in car seats on planes, just as they are safer in car seats on cars. Contrary to popular belief, most plane accidents are minor and you really want your child secured in a car seat in the event of an even minor crash landing, rough turbulance, etc.

Our last two trips when my daughter was 4 we didn't even need a car and I still took the car seat for the plane. Aside from thinking through how to handle the luggage/car seat/stroller, it really hasn't been any trouble at all for us to fly with a car seat. We'll be taking the car seat on two upcoming trips, even after she turns 5.

Red_Rider
01-17-2010, 08:21 PM
I would agree with the previous poster, if they are young enough to have to be in a carseat in the car, then mine will be in one on the plane as well. We are going with a 1yo and 4yo in Sept. The 1yo will be in the rear facing carseat and the 4yo will be in his regular car seat. We'll see how it goes....

brergnat
01-17-2010, 08:40 PM
I'm still flying with a car seat, my daughter is almost 5. We have not had any problems. The Britax seats can be a bit to install/uninstall on the plane, lately we've been flying with a Radian by Sunshine kids which is a very heavy seats but it folds, it has backpack style carry straps, it installs/uninstalls super easily in the plane AND it has a low profile, so my daughter has plenty of legroom and can use the seat back tray.



This is the same carseat we are currently using for DS. The time we flew, we had the stupid Britax monster to carry on. I purposely chose the Radian for its folding ability, and carry straps (bought an extra one so we can "backpack" it!).

As for having a low profile, we did use this seat on the way home from our last plane trip, because our older DS never used his seat, so we checked the Britax monster and carried on the Radian. It STILL did not allow DS to use the tray table. It would come down onto his upper thighs, and not lay flat, so he couldn't use it to color or eat off of without stuff rolling off. Maybe he has chunky legs...I don't know. This was on a Southwest plane. Luckily, though, he fell asleep after about 15 min. So did our other DS, who was not in a seat. He was slumping all over the place! VERY difficult to keep him comfortable. Meanwhile, DS in the carseat slept like a log. This is something to consider too...

The only thing that makes taking the seat even MORE annoying is that we will have to have a flight connection. Folding up the Radian isn't THAT easy. I can't imagine having to do that on the plane...I've done it on my floor at home, but I had lots of space to maneuver...

deerhart
01-17-2010, 08:52 PM
since my kids were in booster seats by age 3 (they had outgrown the traditional car seats) they have never flown with a car seat. At age 4 my kids were 42-45 inches tall and 45-50lbs easy.

As for preparing your son for the trip. Does he use social stories? My oldest has a mixed expressive-receptive speech delay and social stories were a great way to deal prepping him for things. We were lucky in that at that age he could read so we could just write out the stories, but a picture sotry wold work really well (picture of boarding, sitting in the chair, seatbelt sign and it having to stay on, him getting to play with things etc..)

jessica52877
01-17-2010, 08:59 PM
I have not read the responses but I have always carried on my son's carseat. He is now 7 (last time we flew he was 6 1/2). The tray doesn't go down well but he was fine with that. We fly usually from GA to CA and back so long flights. It is wonderful for him sleeping and he has plenty of leg room. More then I have in fact. We fly with a Graco Nautilus. He fine just in a regular seat but I prefer to bring the carseat and he doesn't mind at all. He 55 lbs and 50 inches so no small fry.

Mouse House Mama
01-17-2010, 09:21 PM
For those that take a seat for their older kids I hope that someone in your party sits in front of them so they don't kick anyone.

jessica52877
01-17-2010, 10:18 PM
For those that take a seat for their older kids I hope that someone in your party sits in front of them so they don't kick anyone.

My son's legs fold right over the end of the seat just like mine do. Not to mention all kids don't kick in carseats. :confused3

Mouse House Mama
01-17-2010, 10:23 PM
My son's legs fold right over the end of the seat just like mine do. Not to mention all kids don't kick in carseats. :confused3

It has nothing to do with the kicking. The children usually have less leg room so their normal movement if you will ends up kicking the seat in front of them.

northriver
01-17-2010, 10:25 PM
The only thing that makes taking the seat even MORE annoying is that we will have to have a flight connection. Folding up the Radian isn't THAT easy. I can't imagine having to do that on the plane...I've done it on my floor at home, but I had lots of space to maneuver...

I practice folding the Radian at home. I've found uninstalling and folding the Radian to be much faster than uninstalling the Britax seats. Read the Radian manual on folding, there are some tips, like un-velcroing the back which you need to to do uninstall the seat anyway, and loosening the shoulder harness all the way and pulling it up out of the folded part. After practicing a few times, I can uninstall the Radian and have it on my back in less than a minute. I have my child stand in the aisle while I do this so I have our two seats to work with, to lay the Radian down on its back. It is SO easy to get out of the plan with the Radian folded, I carry it over one shoulder and my backpack over my other shoulder. My kids each carry their own backpacks.

Anyway, I'm a single mom often flying alone with two kids and seriously, if I can manage flying with a car seat, anyone can. I'm actually dreading flying WITHOUT a car seat. My youngest knows how to behave in the car, and knows the same rules apply in the plane - easy to remember them when strapped into the same familiar car seat.


Why so many of the previous posters think a child in a car seat would kick any more than a child NOT in a car seat, or any adult who just doesn't have room for their legs, for that matter??? (My daughter doesn't kick, but then again, she actually has MORE leg room on a plane than she has in our small car, where I sit in front of her, so if she kicks, she's always in trouble!!!)

jessica52877
01-17-2010, 10:26 PM
It has nothing to do with the kicking. The children usually have less leg room so their normal movement if you will ends up kicking the seat in front of them.

His legs don't come over the seat any differently then mine.

mommyof2princesses
01-18-2010, 07:58 AM
For those who don't do the car seat thing on the plane, what do you do upon arrival. Do rental cars come with car seats now? Many states now require car seats or boosters until 8 or 80 lbs.

Mouse House Mama
01-18-2010, 08:03 AM
For those who don't do the car seat thing on the plane, what do you do upon arrival. Do rental cars come with car seats now? Many states now require car seats or boosters until 8 or 80 lbs.

I don't rent a car. I take the DME and stay on property.

kohlby
01-18-2010, 08:37 AM
You can put your carseat in a bag and call it luggage and check it with the rest. It is free to check carseats so you don't get a baggage fee for it. I've been paranoid when I've travelled with carseats so I've actually checked it at the gate if I have connecting flights to make sure it makes it. That way, I have it with me. (The one time I didn't do this, my luggage was delayed! I lucked out that the one carseat the airline would let me use was the right size). You can rent a car seat with a rental car but I don't trust those car seats and it's quite expensive.

*I would fly without a carseat on a plane at 4. My son had no problems using the airplane's seat belt. He knew it stayed on, just like his 5-point harness stayed on at home. He understood safety. (My son was/is big for his age son CARES wasn't an option). For a 2 year old, I would take a 5-point harness. And 3 is the iffy age for me- depending on size and maturity and what else I have to lug! Lugging a Britax Marathon on 3 flights in each direction with two kids with me, including a baby just wasn't possible. So I only had my oldest in the Marathon if my husband was on the trip too).

skhermsmeyer
01-18-2010, 09:18 AM
Sorry to steal the tread, but my DS will be 2.5 when we fly in April. Do you recommend a car seat for him? The last time we flew I was 7 months pregnant and he was a lap kid. :rolleyes1 Long Flight.

This time my DH and DD will be flying with us. DD will be 6 months and I'm just thinking it would be easier if we had him in his car seat. :confused3 What's your experience with it? We've got an Eddie Bauer car seat that we could take with us (don't want to take the Britax Marathon, it's a monster).

jodifla
01-18-2010, 10:38 AM
For those who don't do the car seat thing on the plane, what do you do upon arrival. Do rental cars come with car seats now? Many states now require car seats or boosters until 8 or 80 lbs.

For 4 on up, I used a booster seat when we traveled and were renting a car. I just put it in my son's suitcase, which is an army duffle bag that accommodates lots.

tinkermom23
01-18-2010, 11:13 AM
When our oldest was 4, we used a backless booster for his first flight. He is big for his age and we followed recommendations (at the time) for his height/weight. We had a rental car then and we knew we needed it for the whole trip.
Our last trip the twins were almost 3 and we decided against their carseats. They are not big enough for backless booster and the idea of dragging 2 full carseats was crazy! Since we were using DME and and not getting a rental car at all, the only reason to have them was the airplane. Besides that, I knew it would make me more stressed to keep track of more stuff. The kids did wonderful without their seats.
I was worried that when we got back home they would want to sit in the van without seats since they didn't use carseats for the trip, but they didn't even attempt it, so all was fine.

sahm1000
01-18-2010, 02:16 PM
For those that take a seat for their older kids I hope that someone in your party sits in front of them so they don't kick anyone.


While in a carseat with normal movement my children don't seem to disturb the seat in front of them. If they were kicking a seat I would tell them to stop, but I've never had that problem. And if the normal movement of my child's legs in a seat does bother the person in front of them and they aren't misbehaving, I could care less. Sorry, but my child's safety on an airplane is so much more important than them having a less "bumpy" ride.

amylynne01
01-18-2010, 02:44 PM
Sorry to steal the tread, but my DS will be 2.5 when we fly in April. Do you recommend a car seat for him? The last time we flew I was 7 months pregnant and he was a lap kid. :rolleyes1 Long Flight.

This time my DH and DD will be flying with us. DD will be 6 months and I'm just thinking it would be easier if we had him in his car seat. :confused3 What's your experience with it? We've got an Eddie Bauer car seat that we could take with us (don't want to take the Britax Marathon, it's a monster).

Both of them should be in seats on the plane. If there is any turbulence while in flight, both will be protected by their seats. If your DD is on your lap, you physically won't be able to hold on to her if it gets rough. You can buy a cheap backup seat like a Cosco Scenera (about $40) that is great to use for traveling. When we fly to Disney next January, my girls (who will be just about 3 and 20 months) will use carseats for sure.

disfan07
01-24-2010, 05:57 AM
When I go with a fmaily I sit for in june we are going to have an almost 3 year old, a 5 year old, a 7 year old adn a 10 year old.
Neither the 3 year old or 5 year old are going to be in carseats.

The youngest is 2 1/2 now and is more the height of a 3 1/2 year old so by teh time we go he will probaly be the height of a 4 year old and we're usign disney transportation so the parents decided against a car seat for him adn the 5 year old is out of a carseat anyways. shes in a booster at home because she is so tall (shes been in a booster since 4 1/2) so that wasnt even a question about what to do with her.

But for us its also only a 2 hour flight so we're not concerned with them behaving.
Teh 3 year old will be entranced with MMC on teh DVD player and teh 5 year old will want me to read her princess stories....it should be relatively easy

grace&philipsmom
01-24-2010, 08:29 AM
Before our ikds turned two, we would always buy them a seat and buckle them into their carseat. After about 2 they would fly without.

Mouse House Mama
01-24-2010, 09:37 AM
While in a carseat with normal movement my children don't seem to disturb the seat in front of them. If they were kicking a seat I would tell them to stop, but I've never had that problem. And if the normal movement of my child's legs in a seat does bother the person in front of them and they aren't misbehaving, I could care less. Sorry, but my child's safety on an airplane is so much more important than them having a less "bumpy" ride.

I am just stating what I have seen. Once a person reclines most of those bigger kids are sqooshed in their carseats. Since you feel that this is the safest way to travel with your child then YOU should be the one inconvenienced- not someone else. Have someone from your party sit in front of the child if need be. That is being considerate.

maxiesmom
01-24-2010, 09:47 AM
I am just stating what I have seen. Once a person reclines most of those bigger kids are sqooshed in their carseats. Since you feel that this is the safest way to travel with your child then YOU should be the one inconvenienced- not someone else. Have someone from your party sit in front of the child if need be. That is being considerate.

:thumbsup2:thumbsup2:thumbsup2

SkinsFan76
01-24-2010, 10:01 AM
We've used the CARES harness for my son since he was 1-1/2. Works great, because it is similar to his car seat so he knows he can't get out when it's on and it is a lot more secure than just the air plane seat belt. It is expensive to buy though if you don't fly very often.

He is 3 now and has flown a couple of times without it, when we forgot it, and did fine. We just kept him entertained with Play-do, DVD player, and lego blocks.

Hannathy
01-24-2010, 11:03 AM
I am just stating what I have seen. Once a person reclines most of those bigger kids are sqooshed in their carseats. Since you feel that this is the safest way to travel with your child then YOU should be the one inconvenienced- not someone else. Have someone from your party sit in front of the child if need be. That is being considerate.

Agree, Agree, Agree!!!!!!

I have also been on the receiving end of "his feet don't touch the seat" Well if it is no problem you won't have any issue with sitting in front of them then.

Also goes for if you insist on putting the seat in backwards, then someone from your party should sit in the seat in front and be the one inconvenienced not a perfect stranger. Your kid-your inconvenience!

i_love_stitch
01-24-2010, 04:15 PM
I was once made to take my 5 month old out of a "snugli", as they told me it was safer for him not strapped in. The more that I think of it, I have personally never seen a child in a carseat on an airplane.

I would check with your airline carrier. I think I remember being told at one point that only FAA approved carseats were ok, and they were few and far between.

sdoll
01-24-2010, 11:25 PM
I vote no. We had a rental on our last trip so I was taking my car seats either way. I figured it would be easier to just use it on the plane. I spent the whole trip apoligizing to the person in front of my DS because he kicked him numerous times. I was mortified. Thank goodness the person in front of us was kind. Needless to say I did not use it on the way home and he did fine.

starsweeper
01-24-2010, 11:47 PM
My DS and DD will be 3.5 years old for our trip in May. It had never occurred to me to use a carseat on the plane. I plan to prepare them well ahead of time for what to expect--we used to take 8 hours trips to visit family every 6-8 weeks for over 2 years so they have experience sitting for long trips. I plan to bring several quiet, lightweight activities (coloring, flash cards, books, etc.) to keep their attention. We have late afternoon flights, so I plan to skip naps and they may snooze on the plane once we're at cruising altitude.

KateMW
01-25-2010, 12:42 AM
My son is too tall for CARES. Already looked into that. My main concern is that he might NOT keep his belt on. I'm leaning towards no seat at this point. Thanks everyone.

Before the flight tell him that it's just like the bus and there is no option to take off the belt. Keep reminding him every few days.

Erica09M
01-25-2010, 09:51 AM
I was once made to take my 5 month old out of a "snugli", as they told me it was safer for him not strapped in. The more that I think of it, I have personally never seen a child in a carseat on an airplane.

I would check with your airline carrier. I think I remember being told at one point that only FAA approved carseats were ok, and they were few and far between.

:rotfl: That's ridiculous! I could name off more seats than I have fingers and toes that are very popular and purchased all the time. FAA approved car seats are not few and far between. Pretty much as long as it's a harnessing seat, it's FAA approved. I really wish people knew what they were talking about (not you- but whoever told you that) before they open their mouth.

annette20071
01-25-2010, 10:36 AM
I am just stating what I have seen. Once a person reclines most of those bigger kids are sqooshed in their carseats. Since you feel that this is the safest way to travel with your child then YOU should be the one inconvenienced- not someone else. Have someone from your party sit in front of the child if need be. That is being considerate.

Once a person reclines, EVERYONE is squished, regardless of whether they are in a carseat or not. I think you need to reconsider who is being inconsiderate of others. A carseat is about safety - not anyone's comfort. Parents are able to control their children's behavior most of the time. If my DD is kicking the seat (whether in a carseat or not) I will tell them to stop. That is, unless of course, the person in front of us is reclining and squishing everone. Then I am inclined to kick their seat myself!

Hannathy
01-25-2010, 10:54 AM
Once a person reclines, EVERYONE is squished, regardless of whether they are in a carseat or not. I think you need to reconsider who is being inconsiderate of others. A carseat is about safety - not anyone's comfort. Parents are able to control their children's behavior most of the time. If my DD is kicking the seat (whether in a carseat or not) I will tell them to stop. That is, unless of course, the person in front of us is reclining and squishing everone. Then I am inclined to kick their seat myself!

the right to recline comes with your seat (or else they wouldn't recline) NO ONE child or adult has the right to kick and disturb the seat in front of them and it is the parents responsibility to make sure they don't or else sit in front of them. A person also doesn't have the right to take this away from the person who paid for the seat either with a car seat blocking it or a lap top, etc.

If you are going to interfere with the seat in front then a member of your party should sit in that seat. That is only common courtesy.

i_love_stitch
01-25-2010, 12:58 PM
:rotfl: That's ridiculous! I could name off more seats than I have fingers and toes that are very popular and purchased all the time. FAA approved car seats are not few and far between. Pretty much as long as it's a harnessing seat, it's FAA approved. I really wish people knew what they were talking about (not you- but whoever told you that) before they open their mouth.

Two of my children are still in carseats. We own two Graco Nautilus seats. They are FAA approved.

If you refer to carseatsite.com it does provide a list of FAA approved carseats. Yes, I would agree that there are many models, but not that many different makes that are approved. They do tend to be some of the higher ticket makes, like Britax, and not everyone may have a seat on the list.

Maybe I should have been clearer in my earlier post. I just wanted to have the OP aware that she should check to make sure her carseats are FAA approved before even trying to bring them on board. It would be a hassle to drag them all the way to the gate to find out they could not be used anyway.

dawnmommy
01-25-2010, 07:31 PM
ok, to emphasize what another poster said - nearly every single harnessed carseat is FAA approved! I don't know what carseatsite.com is, but I would go to one of the forums run by carseat techs, such as car-seat.org

Also, I went to the carseatsite.com you mentioned, and you skipped reading half of the darn entry. She said she is selecting "travel seats" based on ease of use (light weight), basically. that has nothing to do with whether or not it is FAA approved. nothing.

Again, pretty much EVERY SINGLE HARNESSED CARSEAT ON THE MARKET TODAY IS FAA APPROVED. REALLY.

The Britax Regent is one of the only exceptions, and it is no longer being manufactured.

Each family will decide what is right for their children, but let's at least not spread incorrect information.

i_love_stitch
01-25-2010, 08:35 PM
ok, to emphasize what another poster said - nearly every single harnessed carseat is FAA approved! I don't know what carseatsite.com is, but I would go to one of the forums run by carseat techs, such as car-seat.org

Also, I went to the carseatsite.com you mentioned, and you skipped reading half of the darn entry. She said she is selecting "travel seats" based on ease of use (light weight), basically. that has nothing to do with whether or not it is FAA approved. nothing.

Again, pretty much EVERY SINGLE HARNESSED CARSEAT ON THE MARKET TODAY IS FAA APPROVED. REALLY.

The Britax Regent is one of the only exceptions, and it is no longer being manufactured.

Each family will decide what is right for their children, but let's at least not spread incorrect information.

I think that you are misunderstanding me. I am trying to be helpful and make the point that I would check out my seat. I myself have FAA approved seats now, but I have experienced trouble in the past on a major airline carrier. I was just trying to help. I did not say the list was all inclusive, just to check it out.

My goodness, I promise never to try to help someone avoid any possible headaches again! I thought we were all here trying to share personal experiences to make everyones life easier.

tinkerbellmamma
01-25-2010, 09:48 PM
My kids under 5 have always flown with a car seat... was it a PITA to lug them through the airport --ohhh yeah! but we wouldn't have done it any other way. My stepmother was a flight attendant for 20 years and after hearing stories from her about unrestrained kids, it convinced me.


I do have a question for anyone who has not rented a car and stayed on Disney property -- did you go to Universal or Sea World on your trip or was it primarily Disney?

brergnat
01-25-2010, 10:58 PM
OP here...

My carseats are FAA approved.

I think I'm going to take it. My son has recently become very scared of EVERYTHING. Lots of things he was fine with a few months ago are now "scary", including airplanes. :sad2: He freaks out and starts crying when I talk about our upcoming vacation and how we will be riding on an airplane. He cries and wants to cuddle just at the thought of it. If, heaven forbid, he decides to pitch a major fit when we get on the plane, at the VERY least, I can strap him down, put my arm around him, and calm him down, and HE will know that he CANNOT sit in my lap for a hug. He is easily persuaded by candy, lollipops and gummies, so I will bring them to break out if he gets upset. I'll also bring his blankie and stuffed dog for comfort. He will be fine once I can turn on the dvd player, but I don't want to take the chance that he will be so upset that he won't sit nicely for takeoff. If he turns out to be totally fine, on the return trip, we'll check the seat.

Thanks for all your feedback. I feel more comfortable taking the seat, mainly due to his developmental delays (speech/language issues as well as some autistic like tendencies). If he was a "typical" kid, I'd probably not even be asking...

syudelson
01-25-2010, 11:24 PM
The FAA and the American Academy of Pediatrics both strongly recommend that all children on planes be restrained in a child restraint until they are at least 40 pounds(rear facing for under 1). Legislation has been started several times to mandate this, but ultimately ends up getting tossed because once you require all children under 40 pounds to be in child restraints, free airfare for lap infants obviously ends. The ATA (trade group representing most of the major airlines) claims that ending free lap children will force families to choose to drive to destinations instead of flying and since driving is "riskier" than flying, more families will be put at risk. To believe they are more worried about your safety on the road than their bottom line is ridiculous. My children have always ridden in safety seats on planes until they moved to a booster in the car (at about 5.5 years old for my older kids, the 2 year old will still ride in a car seat). I never let them purposely kick the seat in front of them and I'm sorry if they accidentally bump the seat in front of them, but I will always chose my children's safety over convenience(mine or anyone else's). I have had my seat back bumped and kicked by lap children, older children getting in and out of their seats, people with very long legs(my husband falls in this category), and elderly people who use my seat back to hoist themselves up. Do you propose that all these people have someone from their party sit in front of them as well? I take getting bumped around on an airplane as part of the package -- if you choose to fly and fly coach (as I do) know that you're going to be packed in like sardines -- that's why the average Joe can afford to fly now. Yes, be as courteous as possible, but courtesy extends both ways.

dismom2
01-26-2010, 01:27 AM
Once a person reclines, EVERYONE is squished, regardless of whether they are in a carseat or not. I think you need to reconsider who is being inconsiderate of others. A carseat is about safety - not anyone's comfort. Parents are able to control their children's behavior most of the time. If my DD is kicking the seat (whether in a carseat or not) I will tell them to stop. That is, unless of course, the person in front of us is reclining and squishing everone. Then I am inclined to kick their seat myself!

So, if someone is reclining in the seat they paid for---which they have every right to do, you feel you and your kids have the right to kick their seat? Nice attitude.

Too bad for you... I paid for my seat and I am going to recline it if I want to because maybe it's more comfortable for me, especially on long flights. You and your kids do not have the right to kick the seat of the person in front of you just because they are reclining and you have some sort of anger management issue with that. I've been flying my whole life, and I think you are exaggerating when you say recliners squish everybody. They only recline about 4 incehs...not like we're lying on the people behind us. I've never been squished. It may be harder to get out, but I only get out to use the bathroom (or walk around sometimes if it's an international flight, which are very long flights).

OP-- I didn't use car seats for my kids on flights. They sat with the belt tightly around them and were perfectly fine. My kids have never bounced around in turbulence. Do what you feel comfortable with, and don't let anyone make you feel bad if you choose not to use one. I never see carseats on planes, and I fly a lot.

frtchr
01-26-2010, 07:28 AM
OP here...

My carseats are FAA approved.

I think I'm going to take it. My son has recently become very scared of EVERYTHING. Lots of things he was fine with a few months ago are now "scary", including airplanes. :sad2: He freaks out and starts crying when I talk about our upcoming vacation and how we will be riding on an airplane. He cries and wants to cuddle just at the thought of it. If, heaven forbid, he decides to pitch a major fit when we get on the plane, at the VERY least, I can strap him down, put my arm around him, and calm him down, and HE will know that he CANNOT sit in my lap for a hug. He is easily persuaded by candy, lollipops and gummies, so I will bring them to break out if he gets upset. I'll also bring his blankie and stuffed dog for comfort. He will be fine once I can turn on the dvd player, but I don't want to take the chance that he will be so upset that he won't sit nicely for takeoff. If he turns out to be totally fine, on the return trip, we'll check the seat.

Thanks for all your feedback. I feel more comfortable taking the seat, mainly due to his developmental delays (speech/language issues as well as some autistic like tendencies). If he was a "typical" kid, I'd probably not even be asking...

Sounds like a good plan, OP! :thumbsup2

annette20071
01-27-2010, 03:57 PM
So, if someone is reclining in the seat they paid for---which they have every right to do, you feel you and your kids have the right to kick their seat? Nice attitude.

Too bad for you... I paid for my seat and I am going to recline it if I want to because maybe it's more comfortable for me, especially on long flights. You and your kids do not have the right to kick the seat of the person in front of you just because they are reclining and you have some sort of anger management issue with that. I've been flying my whole life, and I think you are exaggerating when you say recliners squish everybody. They only recline about 4 incehs...not like we're lying on the people behind us. I've never been squished. It may be harder to get out, but I only get out to use the bathroom (or walk around sometimes if it's an international flight, which are very long flights).

OP-- I didn't use car seats for my kids on flights. They sat with the belt tightly around them and were perfectly fine. My kids have never bounced around in turbulence. Do what you feel comfortable with, and don't let anyone make you feel bad if you choose not to use one. I never see carseats on planes, and I fly a lot.

The poster I responded to was talking about their mere convenience and so are you. My child's safety will ALWAYS come before your convenience or anyone elses. My child has never kicked anyone's seat. The poster I responded to was saying when she reclines kids in carseats kick. Well, she needs to rethink reclining then. I was suggesting she relook at who was being inconsiderate. You always have the option of flying first class if you are concerned about how packed the coach sections are and are concerned about getting your seat knocked. My attitude is just fine. I think you need to rethink about what we are talking about here - someone saying that a child's safety is not as important as their comfort on an airplane. So, yes this does make me angry.

maxiesmom
01-27-2010, 05:40 PM
The poster I responded to was talking about their mere convenience and so are you. My child's safety will ALWAYS come before your convenience or anyone elses. My child has never kicked anyone's seat. The poster I responded to was saying when she reclines kids in carseats kick. Well, she needs to rethink reclining then. I was suggesting she relook at who was being inconsiderate. You always have the option of flying first class if you are concerned about how packed the coach sections are and are concerned about getting your seat knocked. My attitude is just fine. I think you need to rethink about what we are talking about here - someone saying that a child's safety is not as important as their comfort on an airplane. So, yes this does make me angry.

No one is saying your child's safety is not important. We are saying it is not an either or thing. You child can be in a seat, but you need to make sure they are not kicking the seat in front of them, reclined seat or not. Just because a seat is reclined does not mean your child can kick the tar out of it!

We could turn this around and say that if a child can't be in a car seat without kicking the seat in front of them then that parent should sit in first class so that the child has room to kick and fuss without bothering others.:rolleyes1

annette20071
01-27-2010, 06:03 PM
No one is saying your child's safety is not important. We are saying it is not an either or thing. You child can be in a seat, but you need to make sure they are not kicking the seat in front of them, reclined seat or not. Just because a seat is reclined does not mean your child can kick the tar out of it!

We could turn this around and say that if a child can't be in a car seat without kicking the seat in front of them then that parent should sit in first class so that the child has room to kick and fuss without bothering others.:rolleyes1

Yes we can look at it both ways. The post I was responding to stated:

I am just stating what I have seen. Once a person reclines most of those bigger kids are sqooshed in their carseats. Since you feel that this is the safest way to travel with your child then YOU should be the one inconvenienced- not someone else. Have someone from your party sit in front of the child if need be. That is being considerate.

If you know you are squishing the kid behind you, why would you recline? Both reclining and using the car seat are "allowed". One is for comfort and one is for safety. Safety trumps in my opinion. It is ridiculous to suggest the parents should buy yet another seat in front so that someone else is not inconvenienced. My point was SHE should look at who is being inconsiderate. This discussion is beyond ridiculous at this point. Parents don't let their kids intentionally kick someone's seat. It is ridiculous to assume that they are. If a kid is bumping the seat in front because they are squished then complain to the airline about how close they pack the seats. Be considerate and don't recline. Don't suggest a parent not put their kids in a carseat which is for their safety.

maxiesmom
01-27-2010, 06:56 PM
Yes we can look at it both ways. The post I was responding to stated:

I am just stating what I have seen. Once a person reclines most of those bigger kids are sqooshed in their carseats. Since you feel that this is the safest way to travel with your child then YOU should be the one inconvenienced- not someone else. Have someone from your party sit in front of the child if need be. That is being considerate.

If you know you are squishing the kid behind you, why would you recline? Both reclining and using the car seat are "allowed". One is for comfort and one is for safety. Safety trumps in my opinion. It is ridiculous to suggest the parents should buy yet another seat in front so that someone else is not inconvenienced. My point was SHE should look at who is being inconsiderate. This discussion is beyond ridiculous at this point. Parents don't let their kids intentionally kick someone's seat. It is ridiculous to assume that they are. If a kid is bumping the seat in front because they are squished then complain to the airline about how close they pack the seats. Be considerate and don't recline. Don't suggest a parent not put their kids in a carseat which is for their safety.

People recline because the seats are MADE to do so. And while you think it inconsiderate of someone to recline their seat, it is inconsiderate too to let your child kick the seat in front of them. It doesn't matter if the seat is reclined or not, you shouldn't let your child kick. If your child is too squished to sit comfortably in the space made by the person in front of them using their seat in its intended manner, then you should be the one seeing to your child's comfort.

I'm sorry, but I think it is silly how some parents throw out the fact that they have a child like it trumps everyone else's needs. Your child can't behave when someone uses the seat in front of them as it is intended to be used? Then you should be the one inconvenienced. Not other adults. That is part of being a parent, putting your child's needs ahead of your wants. You shouldn't expect other adults to do it for you.

Hannathy
01-27-2010, 07:09 PM
People recline because the seats are MADE to do so. And while you think it inconsiderate of someone to recline their seat, it is inconsiderate too to let your child kick the seat in front of them. It doesn't matter if the seat is reclined or not, you shouldn't let your child kick. If your child is too squished to sit comfortably in the space made by the person in front of them using their seat in its intended manner, then you should be the one seeing to your child's comfort.

I'm sorry, but I think it is silly how some parents throw out the fact that they have a child like it trumps everyone else's needs. Your child can't behave when someone uses the seat in front of them as it is intended to be used? Then you should be the one inconvenienced. Not other adults. That is part of being a parent, putting your child's needs ahead of your wants. You shouldn't expect other adults to do it for you.

Amen!!! and thank you!

Mouse House Mama
01-27-2010, 08:19 PM
Yes we can look at it both ways. The post I was responding to stated:

I am just stating what I have seen. Once a person reclines most of those bigger kids are sqooshed in their carseats. Since you feel that this is the safest way to travel with your child then YOU should be the one inconvenienced- not someone else. Have someone from your party sit in front of the child if need be. That is being considerate.

If you know you are squishing the kid behind you, why would you recline? Both reclining and using the car seat are "allowed". One is for comfort and one is for safety. Safety trumps in my opinion. It is ridiculous to suggest the parents should buy yet another seat in front so that someone else is not inconvenienced. My point was SHE should look at who is being inconsiderate. This discussion is beyond ridiculous at this point. Parents don't let their kids intentionally kick someone's seat. It is ridiculous to assume that they are. If a kid is bumping the seat in front because they are squished then complain to the airline about how close they pack the seats. Be considerate and don't recline. Don't suggest a parent not put their kids in a carseat which is for their safety.

I believe you are responding to me. Well this is why I would recline. Because I have flown pregnant and could not sit even remotely comfortable without leaning back. Because I paid for the seat and that includes the option to recline. Because I have back problems and need to adjust my position. I have kids and the only person responsible for their safety is me and my dh. If you feel their safety trumps all then it should be YOU who is sitting in front of them not reclining. YOU should be considerate as well. As for first class, many planes don't have first class.

Mouse House Mama
01-27-2010, 08:21 PM
People recline because the seats are MADE to do so. And while you think it inconsiderate of someone to recline their seat, it is inconsiderate too to let your child kick the seat in front of them. It doesn't matter if the seat is reclined or not, you shouldn't let your child kick. If your child is too squished to sit comfortably in the space made by the person in front of them using their seat in its intended manner, then you should be the one seeing to your child's comfort.

when someone uses the seat in front of them as it is intended to be used? Then you should be the one inconvenienced. Not other adults. That is part of being a parent, putting your child's needs ahead of your wants. You I'm sorry, but I think it is silly how some parents throw out the fact that they have a child like it trumps everyone else's needs. Your child can't behave shouldn't expect other adults to do it for you.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!:worship:

Cynsational
01-28-2010, 12:50 AM
Currently struggling with this car seat issue as well. Our daughter is four years old and has a Britax Roundabout (big, heavy)that she has always used in the past (cross-Canada flights when she was 18 months and 3 years old).

Our first trip to Disney will also be our first trip flying a US carrier (Continental) and her first trip to the US. We have a two hour flight from Atl. Canada to Newark, a 1.5 hour wait and then a 3 hour flight to Orlando.

We had thought perhaps this trip we would skip the hassle installing and dragging the seat around (esp. since I'm not sure how smoothly our connection will go, esp. having to go through customs during that 1.5 hrs). We can rent a seat from the car rental agency, and I know my daughter would be thrilled to find out she was allowed to sit without it I think.

My daughter is very small for her age - 27 pounds and 37 inches tall. I am concerned that if I have her just belted in, her legs will not be able to hang over the seat at all and will be sticking straight out - that cannot be comfortable. Also, I have my fingers crossed that she'll sleep and I'm not sure if she'll be comfortable enough in a regular airplane seat to drift off.

Torn.

brergnat
01-28-2010, 01:09 AM
Cynsational...if I were you I'd take the seat simply due to your daughter's small size. My older son is short and thin as well and he rode without a seat last year (he was almost five) and he DID fall asleep and it was very hard for him to stay asleep! He kept slumping all over the place. I had my arm around him and was trying to prop him up with his stuffed dog, but it was very uncomfortable for me! When there was slight turbulence his head would flop around. On our previous flight he was fine since he stayed awake. He is not one to fall asleep randomly during the day (gave up naps at 20 months old). Turns out he was getting sick. Anyway, this is a driving force in my decision too. My younger son still naps occasionally. I think he will need a nap on the second leg of our trip and he sleeps good in his carseat. Might as well stick with what we know works.

BellyBaby
01-28-2010, 01:37 AM
Amen!!! and thank you!

People recline because the seats are MADE to do so. And while you think it inconsiderate of someone to recline their seat, it is inconsiderate too to let your child kick the seat in front of them. It doesn't matter if the seat is reclined or not, you shouldn't let your child kick. If your child is too squished to sit comfortably in the space made by the person in front of them using their seat in its intended manner, then you should be the one seeing to your child's comfort.

I'm sorry, but I think it is silly how some parents throw out the fact that they have a child like it trumps everyone else's needs. Your child can't behave when someone uses the seat in front of them as it is intended to be used? Then you should be the one inconvenienced. Not other adults. That is part of being a parent, putting your child's needs ahead of your wants. You shouldn't expect other adults to do it for you.

Wow, I haven't even read the bulk of this topic, but this sure sticks out...I love it! Maxie's Mom and Hannathy, you guys rock.

Anyways, I skimmed through most of the "tense" posts b/c I just hate them so much. But I no longer put my 4-yr old DD in her car seat for flying anymore. I just gate check it. :flower3:

annette20071
01-28-2010, 08:42 AM
As I already said, I think some people have gone beyond ridiculous on this thread. I've been pretty clear on who I think is being inconsiderate and that is not going to change. Although there is more I would love to say, I am not going to continue a ridiculous battle over airplane seats. I hope you all have a great flight next time you travel.

brergnat
01-28-2010, 12:14 PM
What is wrong with you people? I asked a simple question. No need to turn it into a fight. I couldn't care less about the issue of seat kicking. I have dealt with that on EVERY SINGLE flight I have ever taken. People need to lighten up. If you can't deal with your seat being kicked or jostled which WILL happen, don't fly! It's what happens on mass transit.

I was only asking because I was interested in other children's experiences both with and without a carseat at the age of four. Mainly, whether it helped with helping a child follow the rules and be more comfortable. That's it. Kids sometimes kick. Mine does in the car. And guess what? Due to his language delay he doesn't always UNDERSTAND instructions or process what I say. It is frustrating for everyone who encounters him. We are doing our best but I cannot control every action he takes. He might kick and I will do my best to make him stop. However I think he would be MORE disruptive if he was able to jump off his seat, crawl around on the floor or grab or hit the seatback, all of which he would try to do if he wasn't strapped in a carseat.

So, I'm taking the seat. Discussion over.

Hannathy
01-28-2010, 03:46 PM
What is wrong with you people? I asked a simple question. No need to turn it into a fight. I couldn't care less about the issue of seat kicking. I have dealt with that on EVERY SINGLE flight I have ever taken. People need to lighten up. If you can't deal with your seat being kicked or jostled which WILL happen, don't fly! It's what happens on mass transit.

I was only asking because I was interested in other children's experiences both with and without a carseat at the age of four. Mainly, whether it helped with helping a child follow the rules and be more comfortable. That's it. Kids sometimes kick. Mine does in the car. And guess what? Due to his language delay he doesn't always UNDERSTAND instructions or process what I say. It is frustrating for everyone who encounters him. We are doing our best but I cannot control every action he takes. He might kick and I will do my best to make him stop. However I think he would be MORE disruptive if he was able to jump off his seat, crawl around on the floor or grab or hit the seatback, all of which he would try to do if he wasn't strapped in a carseat.

So, I'm taking the seat. Discussion over.

Nice attitude. (IMO)

If you approach others on a flight with that attitude be prepared for no cooperation from the flying public.

annette20071
01-28-2010, 03:55 PM
Nice attitude. (IMO)

If you approach others on a flight with that attitude be prepared for no cooperation from the flying public.

:rotfl2: And your attitude has been super nice, huh?! :rotfl2:

brergnat
01-28-2010, 07:40 PM
Nice attitude. (IMO)

If you approach others on a flight with that attitude be prepared for no cooperation from the flying public.

I'm sorry...I fail to see an "attitude" conveyed in my post. I stated the REALITY that is flying on a plane, and LIVING with a child with a developmental delay.

In a perfect world, everyone would have compassion. Everyone would be civil and friendly and kind. Every child would develop normally. There would be no autism, or speech delays (both of which my children are blessed with...).

This is not a perfect world. I am living in the unperfect world, and am doing my best to cope.

FYI, this is the first vacation we've taken as a family. My kids are almost 6 and 4. It has taken THIS LONG for us to be comfortable with travelling this far. We have stayed home for years because our children are "difficult." Should we have to stay home forever because our children are not perfect angels?

We have taken ONE flight with our kids, and it was only an hour long. That was our test. Our kids were the best behaved kids on the plane by FAR. Even the crew commented on it, and were SHOCKED that our kids have disabilities. This was 9 months ago.

However, life changes. Our younger son has developed severe anxiety and phobias. We are trying to work through it, but we have decided that life goes on, and we must move forward with our plans and expose him to these situations which make him fearful (a few of which include: being around a blender, hearing a vacuum, brushing his teeth, etc.) He WILL be flying on a plane, and it's a long trip. I was concerned, so asked about the carseat maybe being helpful.

YOUR attitude is one of entitlement. That's one of the ugliest attitudes in our society today. So, thanks for your contribution. :sad2:

catrax
01-28-2010, 08:14 PM
We took our 4 year old on two trips to WDW. We also had a 2 yr old at the time. The first trip we brought the seats and the second trip we didn't. I must say that those car seats were MISERABLE carrying to the planes, to the room at WDW and then back was WORSE - Orlando security makes it miserable for families from my perspective. I say if you can distract him with a portable DVD player and you'll be sitting right by his side, do it without the car seat! You'll be thankful that you did!

bavaria
01-29-2010, 02:37 AM
As I already said, I think some people have gone beyond ridiculous on this thread.

Absolutely! Thinking that it is acceptable for children to kick the back of seats, and for adults to demand that others do not recline definitely meets that definition.

Flying means a lot of people in a limited amount of space. One cannot demand respect from others if one is not willing to offer up the same.

annette20071
01-29-2010, 08:12 AM
Flying means a lot of people in a limited amount of space. One cannot demand respect from others if one is not willing to offer up the same.

Right back at you. It goes both ways. :sad2:

NHdisneylover
01-29-2010, 08:13 AM
I just scanned through the thread and see now that we are back to the same age old debates:rolleyes:

I will chime in with basically the same things that many have said. Perhaps my experience being a mother, who flew with carseat aged kids about 6-10 times per year will carry a little weight. Who knows though:confused3

Chidlren are at more risk while riding in the car to the ariport, even while confined in carseats than they ever arewhile flying in or out of a carseat. I figured if I am willing to take the risk to drive then I should be okay with the infintessimal risk to fly. The lap belts always held my childrn fine even through very rough turbulence (which we did hit a couple of times when they were tiny--and DS has always been a super skinny kid). Also, odds are HUGE that IF there is a real problem in the flight either everyeone will perish (carseat or not) or everyone will make it. Furthermore, the few serious emergencies which end up with living passengers tend to need a quick evacuation of a plane as it fills with smoke. It is much faster to get a child out of a standard airline safety belt than a car seat (and faster to get out of the row without a seat in the way). If you really want to increase your child's chances of surving a crash, you would be much better off to sit near an exit row and in the rear of the plane (estimates are your chance of survival is up to 40% higher in the rear of an aircraft) than to worry about the carseat (personally I have decided airline travel is a low risk and do not worry about it at all). DBiL studies ariline crashes and design airbags for planes for a living. He is an expert on these matters and ends up quoted in meadia outlets after just about any crash or near miss. He agrees with my thoughts on this and did not use a carseat for his son on flights either. All of this to say--I truly feel that the "child safety" argument here is serious overkill (and I am very fond of safety, really I am).

Okay, so deciding that the carseat merely provides a perception of safety (not talking lap child here--talking about being restrained in a lapbelt vs. a carseat) I prefered lapbelts for several other reasons as well:

Frist, as stated here many times, it helps keep the child from kicking the seat in front of him. A couple of kicks or bumps here or there followed by a quick apology are to be expected and only the most sour of travellers would hold that against someone. However, repeated kicking and/or kicking that a parent does not try to stop is terrifically rude and really not acceptable behaviour. Period.

Secondly, I think many kids are used to a certain set of behaviours in the car. The carseat singles to the child that the same rules apply. Those rule may include getting to watch a movie to entire ride, the ride lasting less than an hour, talking in a "loudish" voice to be heard by parents in the front seat from the back, etc. I find having the different seat belt helps send the signal that this is a different enviornment and can help the child remember to keep a "library" voice, cope with not being able to use eletronics during take off and landing, etc.

Finally, I had my children's comfort in mind. Just as adults tend to prefer the roomier seats in first class, I think my chidlren prefered the extra "wiggle room" provded by having the full seat (and prefered not to be squished if the passenger in front of them reclined). Car seats hold a child really pretty tightly in one place and position. I think this is acceptable for shorter car rides (and needed as it does add a great deal to safety in such places) to restrain a child to such an extent, but not for the prolonged duration of a flight.

Cynsational
01-29-2010, 08:21 AM
It happens. As long as the parents are doing their best to stop it, there's no reason to get worked up. Every time I fly, there are elderly people who bump into the seats and use my seat as leverage to get up. Do I like it? No. Do I get worked up about it? Of course not. Flying (at least coach) is not a luxurious experience. I'm likely to be jostled, overwhelmed by someone's terrible cologne or perfume and generally squished. Breathe in, breathe out and do our best to be considerate of others in whatever small way we can.

I don't recline my seat when I know the person behind me has their tray table down. I don't wear scents on planes. I do my best to make sure my party is quiet. That said, things happen. When I see/hear a child having a meltdown, I recognize that 99% of parents are embarrassed and doing whatever they can to calm their child. Kids are usually exhausted, have waited in terminals, etc. for ages, are in a strange situation. Did you know that if your feet are dangling for long periods, your legs will fall asleep? That is a factor in why kids start pushing/kicking with their feet. Children can be inconvenient. So can elderly people. There is no point in getting upset - I am part of society and if I don't care to deal with inconvenient people, I'll have to become a hermit.

JUJU814
01-29-2010, 08:45 AM
It happens. As long as the parents are doing their best to stop it, there's no reason to get worked up. Every time I fly, there are elderly people who bump into the seats and use my seat as leverage to get up. Do I like it? No. Do I get worked up about it? Of course not. Flying (at least coach) is not a luxurious experience. I'm likely to be jostled, overwhelmed by someone's terrible cologne or perfume and generally squished. Breathe in, breathe out and do our best to be considerate of others in whatever small way we can.

I don't recline my seat when I know the person behind me has their tray table down. I don't wear scents on planes. I do my best to make sure my party is quiet. That said, things happen. When I see/hear a child having a meltdown, I recognize that 99% of parents are embarrassed and doing whatever they can to calm their child. Kids are usually exhausted, have waited in terminals, etc. for ages, are in a strange situation. Did you know that if your feet are dangling for long periods, your legs will fall asleep? That is a factor in why kids start pushing/kicking with their feet. Children can be inconvenient. So can elderly people. There is no point in getting upset - I am part of society and if I don't care to deal with inconvenient people, I'll have to become a hermit.

:thumbsup2

NHdisneylover
01-29-2010, 08:51 AM
It happens. As long as the parents are doing their best to stop it, there's no reason to get worked up. Every time I fly, there are elderly people who bump into the seats and use my seat as leverage to get up. Do I like it? No. Do I get worked up about it? Of course not. Flying (at least coach) is not a luxurious experience. I'm likely to be jostled, overwhelmed by someone's terrible cologne or perfume and generally squished. Breathe in, breathe out and do our best to be considerate of others in whatever small way we can.

I don't recline my seat when I know the person behind me has their tray table down. I don't wear scents on planes. I do my best to make sure my party is quiet. That said, things happen. When I see/hear a child having a meltdown, I recognize that 99% of parents are embarrassed and doing whatever they can to calm their child. Kids are usually exhausted, have waited in terminals, etc. for ages, are in a strange situation. Did you know that if your feet are dangling for long periods, your legs will fall asleep? That is a factor in why kids start pushing/kicking with their feet. Children can be inconvenient. So can elderly people. There is no point in getting upset - I am part of society and if I don't care to deal with inconvenient people, I'll have to become a hermit.

I totally agree with the bolded (and much of the rest of your post). I have not seen anyone say anything to the contrary. The problem comes when some parents do not think they should need to try to control the kicking (or whatever else). You often see the attitude that if the person ahead would just not recline then the kid would not kick so let the kid kick if the person wnats to recline. This type of rudeness may not be a huge deal to someone who takes maybe one or two round trips domestic fligths a year, but to those who travel weekly (or more) for work and for whom tha tthree hour domestic flight may be the last leg of 10 or more hours of travel it is a much bigger issue.

I, for one, do not mind dealing with inconveineint people and experiences with flying--it comes with the territory and there is only so much anyone can do. I do not get work up about parents who are visibly trying to comfort a child crying with ear pain, I DO mind dealing with rude people. That can and should be prevented.

bavaria
01-29-2010, 11:11 AM
The vast majority of anti-recliners here seem to fly very infrequently, and/or on short flights.

If you were flying over 22 hours, over 3 flights, for instance, would you feel the same way?

It is rude to insist that your fellow flyers do not recline, when there is no restriction against doing so except during take off and landing.

If it bothers you so much, fly an aircraft with an economy cabin with extra space, or upgrade to a premium cabin, or fly an aircraft with clamshell seats.

annette20071
01-29-2010, 11:19 AM
The vast majority of anti-recliners here seem to fly very infrequently, and/or on short flights.

If you were flying over 22 hours, over 3 flights, for instance, would you feel the same way?

It is rude to insist that your fellow flyers do not recline, when there is no restriction against doing so except during take off and landing.

If it bothers you so much, fly an aircraft with an economy cabin with extra space, or upgrade to a premium cabin, or fly an aircraft with clamshell seats.

Seriously. We could make the same suggestions to you. I am not anti-recline. Yes reclining is allowed, although it is intended for night travel. Car seats are also allowed. What bugs me is when someone said, parents shouldn't bring carseats because when I recline I squish the kid and then the kid kicks. I think when a person knows they are making the person behind them uncomfortable, and they still choose that action then that is what is inconsiderate and rude. I have flown numerous times. Both with and without family, and I have never had an issue. I do not know why you made the assumption that "anti-recliners fly infrequently". What on earth gave you that impression?

bavaria
01-29-2010, 11:24 AM
Well, I DO pay extra out of my pocket to fly in seats with extra space and/or to upgrade. I flew over 200,000 miles last year, and the vast majority of the time it was in my preferred seat, or with an upgrade for which I personally paid.

I AM concious of my fellow travellers and self-aware of my needs.

But I would not dare to impose on others. If I cannot get a seat which works for me, I choose to deplane and fly later at my own cost. I do not ask or expect anyone to move or to assist me.

What amazes me here over and over is how over the past decade the tone has changed so that simply having a child seems to be some sort of disability, or takes priority over anyone else, including those with needs or the elderly.

I DO take responsibility for myself and I DO choose not to impose on others. Yet many parents here feel that they can demand respect and demand that others do everything to make them comfortable.

It may be time to consider others for a change.

nansmama
01-29-2010, 11:46 AM
---------------------------

brentm3
01-29-2010, 12:05 PM
My DS4 is over the size & weight limit for the CARES device, but I will be using it next week regardless. (Quick! Someone call DCFS!)

With the CARES, the lap belt is still employed as it was designed, the CARES simply offers additional shoulder retraints connecting the lap belt to the upper strap.

Nobody has tried, and nobody could convince me the CARES + lap belt is less safe than the lap belt alone, regardless of whatever limit the FAA/DOT/whoever imposed.

I do believe a carseat would be better still, but in the event of a bad landing* (see definition below) I'm resigning myself to the thought that the seat probably wouldn't change the outcome much. (that said, I would still use a seat for 3yo and under...)

God Bless the people who do take the seat into the plane, I've done it many times, even dealt with a man who repeatedly slammed his seatback into my infant's rear facing seat and started yelling (violently, as in a stewardess came running.) That incident did not deter me for future flights though. It is no picnic dealing with the seat, especially the wider (but still FAA approved) ones.

I hope I always remain compassionate to the plight of fellow people, in all circumstances, and never feel entitled to inconvenience someone else for a miniscule amount of my own comfort. I'm 6'1" and have significant back problems (getting another MRI today), but I will not be reclining unless the person behind me is short or asleep.

* Pilot's definitions: a good landing is one you can walk away from, a great landing is one where the plane can be used again.

bavaria
01-29-2010, 12:26 PM
When you board an aircraft, you can only reasonably expect so much from other passengers.

Reclining is permitted, so expecting or demanding that someone does not do so isn't fair or sociable.

Best is to plan ahead, and do as people here have advised. That may mean seating one member of your party in the seat in front of the car seat, or it may mean forgoing the car seat for your larger child.

But planning to demand things from others really isn't fair, and doesn't set a positive tone. Other passengers or crew may be willing to help, but if one is unreasonable or makes demands rather than requests, the willingless is diminished.

As with anything, plan for the worst and hope for the best.

dmoore718
01-29-2010, 05:22 PM
Mine was 3 last year and she was fine with no carseat.

annette20071
01-29-2010, 05:43 PM
When you board an aircraft, you can only reasonably expect so much from other passengers.

Reclining is permitted, so expecting or demanding that someone does not do so isn't fair or sociable.

Best is to plan ahead, and do as people here have advised. That may mean seating one member of your party in the seat in front of the car seat, or it may mean forgoing the car seat for your larger child.

But planning to demand things from others really isn't fair, and doesn't set a positive tone. Other passengers or crew may be willing to help, but if one is unreasonable or makes demands rather than requests, the willingless is diminished.

As with anything, plan for the worst and hope for the best.

Let it go already. Lots of things are permitted, that does not mean they are necessary or considerate or right. Most people would not think it unreasonable for someone not to recline and squish the person behind them. Apparently you don't. Whatever. Not everyone flies with a huge party to buy all seats around them. Anytime you are in public, you have to deal with the public. That may mean kids in carseats or people who recline or whatever. We all have to compromise, and no one is going to win this battle. We will all do what "we" choose when we fly.

bavaria
01-29-2010, 05:48 PM
And in return, please don't assume that any passenger can tell another that they may or may not recline. (Either here, or in person)

The airlines permit it except during takeoff and landing, so do expect that many passengers will do so. People with car seats need to be aware that it may happen, and need to plan for that.

There isn't anything wrong with reclining, and it is not fair to try and make people feel bad for doing so.

annette20071
01-29-2010, 05:59 PM
And in return, please don't assume that any passenger can tell another that they may or may not recline. (Either here, or in person)

The airlines permit it except during takeoff and landing, so do expect that many passengers will do so. People with car seats need to be aware that it may happen, and need to plan for that.

There isn't anything wrong with reclining, and it is not fair to try and make people feel bad for doing so.

Wow. You must REALLY like to recline. And in return, please know that families travel with kids in carseats, and your seat might get bumped if you aren't considerate of those around you. So, please don't tell people not to bring carseats - just expect it and plan accordingly. The airplanes permit carseats (during the entire flight!). There is nothing wrong with using car seats. In fact, according to experts it is the safest way for a child to travel. So, it is not fair to try to make people feel bad for doing so. ;)

maxiesmom
01-29-2010, 06:26 PM
Wow. You must REALLY like to recline. And in return, please know that families travel with kids in carseats, and your seat might get bumped if you aren't considerate of those around you. So, please don't tell people not to bring carseats - just expect it and plan accordingly. The airplanes permit carseats (during the entire flight!). There is nothing wrong with using car seats. In fact, according to experts it is the safest way for a child to travel. So, it is not fair to try to make people feel bad for doing so. ;)

No one is trying to make you feel bad for using a car seat. However if you are using one and the person in front of you reclines, that still doesn't make it is ok for your child to kick the seat in front of them. One should have nothing to do with the other. Kicking the seat in front of you is not acceptable behavior, if the seat is reclined or not. And using a car seat is not a built in excuse to let your child do so. Some people here are making it sound like it is.

JUJU814
01-29-2010, 06:47 PM
Let it go already. Lots of things are permitted, that does not mean they are necessary or considerate or right. Most people would not think it unreasonable for someone not to recline and squish the person behind them. Apparently you don't. Whatever. Not everyone flies with a huge party to buy all seats around them. Anytime you are in public, you have to deal with the public. That may mean kids in carseats or people who recline or whatever. We all have to compromise, and no one is going to win this battle. We will all do what "we" choose when we fly.

I am a person who flies rather frequently and I choose NOT to recline because I do care about the people behind me and their comfort. So, unless I'm really really tired or something, or it's a super long flight, I keep my seat upright. I am aware that there is someone behind me that may be using their tray, or possibly a child in a carseat or something.

That's just me..I try to be considerate of those around me.

I also think it's extremely unreasonable, as an adult, to expect to NOT get kicked AT ALL by a child who might be sitting behind you. Obviously it's not something that the parents should ignore, encourage or "allow" but any reasonable adult with half a brain that may have had kids of their own KNOWS full well that little kids sometimes kick.

If I'm on a plane sitting next to my small child, and they kick, I'll *immediately* speak to them and deal with it..but the kicking is already done. It might happen again. Maybe two or three more times depending on the length of the flight. I won't ignore it, but it still HAPPENS.

Any *reasonable* adult knows this and accepts that things happen when there are small kids on your flight. It's like getting on a flight and KNOWING there could be screaming kids.

An uncomfortable squished toddler MIGHT kick a little.

Personally, I deal with it. I didn't think I was a very flexible person till I read some of the in-flexible posts on these threads!;)

maxiesmom
01-29-2010, 08:06 PM
I also think it's extremely unreasonable, as an adult, to expect to NOT get kicked AT ALL by a child who might be sitting behind you. Obviously it's not something that the parents should ignore, encourage or "allow" but any reasonable adult with half a brain that may have had kids of their own KNOWS full well that little kids sometimes kick.

If I'm on a plane sitting next to my small child, and they kick, I'll *immediately* speak to them and deal with it..but the kicking is already done. It might happen again. Maybe two or three more times depending on the length of the flight. I won't ignore it, but it still HAPPENS.

Any *reasonable* adult knows this and accepts that things happen when there are small kids on your flight. It's like getting on a flight and KNOWING there could be screaming kids.


Oh, I would totally understand a little one kicking my seat once or twice. But by some of the replies on here, it sounds almost like the parent will be going "Kick it hard sweetie!" if the person in front of them dares to recline their seat!

Kids will kick, I get that. But the parent needs to do what they can to limit the kicking, and not have an 'Oh well, that is what they get for putting their seat back" attitude.

HolliePoppins
01-29-2010, 08:08 PM
Once a person reclines, EVERYONE is squished, regardless of whether they are in a carseat or not. I think you need to reconsider who is being inconsiderate of others. A carseat is about safety - not anyone's comfort. Parents are able to control their children's behavior most of the time. If my DD is kicking the seat (whether in a carseat or not) I will tell them to stop. That is, unless of course, the person in front of us is reclining and squishing everone. Then I am inclined to kick their seat myself!

It is statements like these that are getting the OP the responses that they are.

bavaria
01-29-2010, 08:10 PM
For those of you who smugly post that you have some sort of moral superiority because you do not recline your seat, I challenge you to fly 22 hours or more in a bolt upright position.

By the end of your travel day, you won't be any more superior than anyone else - you'll just be more tired and more exhausted, more likely. If reclining bothers you so much, do as I do and pay for a seat in a cabin with more economy space, or pay to upgrade, or fly carriers with clamshell seats. I do that, and reclining doesn't impact others in that situation. But I don't consider myself morally superior for doing so - just looking after my needs without imposing on others.

Nobody has told any parent here not to bring a car seat, but many have outlined some of the challenges with a larger child in a car seat. In contrast, many have made some rather negative comments and behaved as if they are somehow a better person for imposing their demands on others, or even told people that they are not to recline on board an aircraft.

Again, airlines permit passengers to recline. Expect that if you have a larger child in a car seat that they may lack space. If your only plan is to ask that the person in front of you not recline, you may be disappointed.

There has been some excellent advice on this thread about how to deal with larger children.

Hannathy
01-29-2010, 08:21 PM
No one is trying to make you feel bad for using a car seat. However if you are using one and the person in front of you reclines, that still doesn't make it is ok for your child to kick the seat in front of them. One should have nothing to do with the other. Kicking the seat in front of you is not acceptable behavior, if the seat is reclined or not. And using a car seat is not a built in excuse to let your child do so. Some people here are making it sound like it is.

Agree. Kicking a seat is never acceptable. Will it happen, sure but I expect the parent to stop it not encourage it. That is what I find annoying about the attitude of some parents on here. The go ahead sweetie kick it all you want that bad person actually wants to use the seat they bought so you can kick it all you want. I have traveled a lot with kids and have they kicked the seat, yep, but they were told accompanied by the stare of death that they won't be doing it anymore and if they do they will apologize to the person in front of them. I understand small kids will do something without thinking and that is why there is a parent near to correct and prevent and teach acceptable behavior when in public not encourage them to be rude and selfish and believe they are more important than anyone else.

NHdisneylover
01-30-2010, 11:38 AM
Oh, I would totally understand a little one kicking my seat once or twice. But by some of the replies on here, it sounds almost like the parent will be going "Kick it hard sweetie!" if the person in front of them dares to recline their seat!

Kids will kick, I get that. But the parent needs to do what they can to limit the kicking, and not have an 'Oh well, that is what they get for putting their seat back" attitude.
Agreed. As a mom, my kids did knock the seats now and agains as little ones, and as a mom I did my darndest to stop them regardless of how the person had their seat set.

Once a person reclines, EVERYONE is squished, regardless of whether they are in a carseat or not. I think you need to reconsider who is being inconsiderate of others. A carseat is about safety - not anyone's comfort. Parents are able to control their children's behavior most of the time. If my DD is kicking the seat (whether in a carseat or not) I will tell them to stop.That is, unless of course, the person in front of us is reclining and squishing everone. Then I am inclined to kick their seat myself!

It is statements like these that are getting the OP the responses that they are.

Thanks for finding that quote:thumbsup2 That is EXACTLY the type of thing some of are responding to (and it does happen in reality, not just on a message board).

Agree. Kicking a seat is never acceptable. Will it happen, sure but I expect the parent to stop it not encourage it. That is what I find annoying about the attitude of some parents on here. The go ahead sweetie kick it all you want that bad person actually wants to use the seat they bought so you can kick it all you want. I have traveled a lot with kids and have they kicked the seat, yep, but they were told accompanied by the stare of death that they won't be doing it anymore and if they do they will apologize to the person in front of them. I understand small kids will do something without thinking and that is why there is a parent near to correct and prevent and teach acceptable behavior when in public not encourage them to be rude and selfish and believe they are more important than anyone else.

:thumbsup2:thumbsup2

I still think a lot of the difference comes from people who fly a few times a year on short (5 hours or less) flights not really considering that the reclining person in front of them may be on the last leg of a loooong journey and need that bit of recline to keep their head from dropping forward when they fall asleep (and they need that sleep!). My DH has had weeks where he is gone for 6 nights but only spends 2 in hotels. All the rest are "overnight" flights that he has to try to sleep on-grabbing showers in airport lounges along the way. I know some of the posters here fly more than my DH and likely have many similar schedules. So, yeah, if that is all the sleep you are getting for days you do REALLY like to recline.

Again, I do not have any problem with anyone bringing a carseat on a flight at all. Personally I do not like to and I explained why because I thought the information would be helpful who was trying to decide what to do. I have not seen any poster who said people should not bring or use the car seats--only posters who take issue with attitudes such as the one posted above.